Hindu/Christian/Atheist Challenge to Al-Isra Wal-Meraj

[Champ_Pal]

Its funny you ask me for evidence when you should be the one showing evidence. Whatever alternate time dimensions you were proposing our current science does not support traveling in those dimensions. Even if someone travels, there is no guarantee that he/she will end up back in our universe much less our time line..

Come up with a new theory. This theory does not work.

 

[LordJames]

I never disagreed that Time can have multiple dimensions. So Stop putting words into my mouth. It is speculative and has no base in reality.

Time dilation does happen no matter which time dimension you are in if you travel at the speed of light. It may be different due to different set of Universal constants like gravity.

You are posting theories that does not support the supposed jumping of time dimensions to achieve the night journey. One can technically jump time dimensions. However, the result of such action can lead to paradoxes and one might end up in a parallel universe. It is speculative Physics. There is no evidence that one can jump back to current dimension after traveling at speed of light in an alternate time dimension. I am tired of repeating the same over and over again. Science cannot confirm jumping of time dimensions after traveling at speed of light will all work smoothly. No one knows what kind of universal constants like Gravity work there.

Just because some speculative science theories allow for speculative alternate time dimensions does not mean one can travel in that and then comeback to our own time line as if nothing has happened.

View attachment 157268
View attachment 157269

Dear @Champ_Pal

The disagreement is not time dilation but the extent of time dilation which you are claiming as a static.

Its funny you ask me for evidence when you should be the one showing evidence. Whatever alternate time dimensions you were proposing our current science does not support traveling in those dimensions. Even if someone travels, there is no guarantee that he/she will end up back in our universe much less our time line..

Come up with a new theory. This theory does not work.

Already provided everything.

Please challenge and refute.

Thanks

 

[Champ_Pal]

Dear @Champ_Pal

The disagreement is not time dilation but the extent of time dilation which you are claiming as a static.


Already provided everything.

Please challenge and refute.

Thanks

The time dilation may or may not be like it happens in our universe. No one knows. It’s all speculative. In the alternate time dimension that the night journey may have happened, the gravitational constant may be different. Science does not know.

I have provided you with a simple google search that the physics we have now does not have any evidence of alternate time dimensions. It exists in mathematical equations. Even then no one can travel in those dimensions and come back to our universe at the exact same time period.

I cannot give you any further evidence. You refuse to accept what I’ve shown because it will shake up your faith in your religion. I am nobody to tell you what you should think or believe. I have given you the rebuttal to your multi time dimension travel. Science does not support traveling in such dimension as one might end up in parallel universe and it is beyond current day physics. We can assume so and so by smoking some good stuff. Hence speculative physics. It only exists in mathematical equations. Reality is quite different. It’s is beyond the reach of current state of science and we may never know what it would be. Not in our universe.

Again, come up with a new theory. This traveling in alternate time dimension does not work. You cannot prove it scientifically.

If you do not come up with a newer argument, I will not respond from here on. I cannot keep repeating the same rebuttal over and over again to your same claim.

Last time. Alternate multi time dimensions may exist in speculative physics. Traveling in those dimensions is not possible. Modern physics does not allow that as it will break all the known laws of our universe. As I have posted from Google search, if someone does travel in a different time dimension, he/she may end up in a parallel universe. This topic will jump into multi-verse theory where the same laws of physics of universe will not apply. It is anybodies guess. This is why I call it a discussion over smoking some good stuff.

If you do not come up with new theory, I will ignore anything you post on this. I cannot spends so many hours explaining the same thing over and over again and again. Your theory of traveling in multi time dimensions does not work in explaining night journey.

 

[LordJames]

The time dilation may or may not be like it happens in our universe. No one knows. It’s all speculative. In the alternate time dimension that the night journey may have happened, the gravitational constant may be different. Science does not know.

I have provided you with a simple google search that the physics we have now does not have any evidence of alternate time dimensions. It exists in mathematical equations. Even then no one can travel in those dimensions and come back to our universe at the exact same time period.

I cannot give you any further evidence. You refuse to accept what I’ve shown because it will shake up your faith in your religion. I am nobody to tell you what you should think or believe. I have given you the rebuttal to your multi time dimension travel. Science does not support traveling in such dimension as one might end up in parallel universe and it is beyond current day physics. We can assume so and so by smoking some good stuff. Hence speculative physics. It only exists in mathematical equations. Reality is quite different. It’s is beyond the reach of current state of science and we may never know what it would be. Not in our universe.

Again, come up with a new theory. This traveling in alternate time dimension does not work. You cannot prove it scientifically.

If you do not come up with a newer argument, I will not respond from here on. I cannot keep repeating the same rebuttal over and over again to your same claim.

Last time. Alternate multi time dimensions may exist in speculative physics. Traveling in those dimensions is not possible. Modern physics does not allow that as it will break all the known laws of our universe. As I have posted from Google search, if someone does travel in a different time dimension, he/she may end up in a parallel universe. This topic will jump into multi-verse theory where the same laws of physics of universe will not apply. It is anybodies guess. This is why I call it a discussion over smoking some good stuff.

If you do not come up with new theory, I will ignore anything you post on this. I cannot spends so many hours explaining the same thing over and over again and again. Your theory of traveling in multi time dimensions does not work in explaining night journey.

Dear @Champ_Pal

My faith in my religion has nothing to do with Particle Physics.

You haven't given any rebuttals to a published theoretical framework.

Dear @Champ_Pal

I appreciate you making the screen resolution bigger for my eyes but I read 2 days ago which you wrote. However, you neither read or understood what I wrote 24 hours later.

Please read and refute what is being written and ask for clarification if something is not clear and I will be happy to explain. I am going to clearly reference everything I say and provide links for you to check but I am after all human and due to my (age & eyes) I make mistakes so please point out errors which can be corrected.

I have not done screenshots I have given evidence, links and summarized the concepts for you to read, check, verify and refute.

Kletetschka 3D Time Concept (Peer Reviewed Scientific Paper)

This paper introduces a theoretical framework based on three-dimensional time, where the three temporal dimensions emerge from fundamental symmetry requirements. The necessity for exactly three temporal dimensions arises from observed quantum-classical-cosmological transitions that manifest at three distinct scales: Planck-scale quantum phenomena, interaction-scale processes, and cosmological evolution. These temporal scales directly generate three particle generations through eigenvalue equations of the temporal metric, naturally explaining both the number of generations and their mass hierarchy.

Where is a Theory in Physics?

A well-supported, comprehensive explanation of an aspect of the natural world, formed from a collection of verified facts, principles, and laws that are integrated into a self-consistent framework.

Where is a Framework in Physics?

A framework is a fundamental structure or set of rules, assumptions, and mathematical tools that provides a way to describe and analyze physical systems, guiding the formulation of theories and the solution of problems

Where is the Discussion?

I can argue with your AI screenshots but instead I have moved the argument and presented a theoretical model and gone even beyond and given a framework (see definitions above)

Why your AI screenshots are irrelevant?​

1. They do not discuss a multidimensional time model.​

Why your Time Dilation argument made 48 hours ago no longer works?

Because in your model time is linear (as proposed by Albert Einstein) but in Kletetschka 3D Time Concept time is not a single linear progression but has three independent axes, similar to space. In his model, time is the fundamental "canvas" of the universe, and space is a secondary effect.

Time Dilation is a concept is a concept from Albert Einstein [1879-1955] theories (specifically from Special relativity) and it is when we understood time to be a singular dimension.

We now know that time has multiple dimensions so the older concept of time dilation cannot be predicted because in a multidimensional time.

Why your argument about "Speculative" Physics is wrong?

Everything in Physics starts as a speculation but it needs to be grounded in Math and not Guesswork, let me give you 3 examples (from physics) of what started out as speculations and now are observable:​

1. Atoms was a "speculation" by Democritus (around 460 BC)​
2. Black Holes was "speculation" by Albert Einstein (1879-1955)​
3. Gravitational waves were speculation Albert Einstein paper (1916) but observed almost 100 years later in 2015.​

Suggested background reading for your argument:

Your argument (and old understanding) of Time Dilation is discussed in "A Brief History of Time" by Stephen Hawkins [1942-2018]​

1. Wrote the Thesis in 1965 and this is his PhD Thesis (for laymen)​
2. Published in 1983 (first edition)​

I read this years ago as a boy but I am confident after all these years that it is one of the best books on the subject which you are describing.

What is your Job?

Please:​

1. Read​
2. Understand​
3. Respond to what is being written​
4. Prove it to be impossible!​

If you cannot prove the theoretical model and framework to be impossible then it is in the realms of possibility.

Sherlock Holmes:

When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth.

Thanks for your time.
​

As I said, this is published theoretical framework which has been peer reviewed by physicists around the world, what evidence do you have to refute it? Where is your findings and your paper?

Thanks

 

[ElRaja]

ive read bits and pieces of this thread, and just my two cents

1. if you want a debate you have to set the format, normally opening statements, rebuttals, counter rebuttals, closing statement, then you leave it, constant tooing and froing is not a debate, its an argument. this thread does nothing to clarify the points of either side.
2. you cannot debate an issue using different frames of reference, either the scientific approach needs to cede to the spiritual, or vice versa.
3. arguing matters of faith is a pointless exercise, either you believe or you dont, which goes back to my first point, the purpose should be to elucidate both view points and then let people read it. its not about winning in the traditional sense, if that was the case there have been, with all due respect to those taking part, far superior minds on both sides who would have laid the matter of whether there is scientifc evidnece for religious miracle to rest a long time ago.

 

[ElRaja]

Ive said it before on here. There is NO such thing as an Atheist. Put Richard Dawkins or any hardcore atheist in a room, lock them up and walk away. Give them one day, 3 days, 1 week, sooner or later they will ask for help from a higher power. There is a beautiful verse in the Quran which points this. Its been a long day so cant recall it at the top off my head atm.

well if you get locked in a room with no escape, logically whoever has the key is the higher power

 

[LordJames]

It is a discussion and I am presenting him with a theoretical framework and he is dismissing it with screenshots so @Champ_Pal will have to forgive me when I am asking for a little more than that...

When something is a theoretical framework with mathematical equations then it is possible, it doesn't matter if it has not been demo'ed yet which is his argument but you can't dismiss a groundbreaking theoretical framework with AI screenshots. You need to provide evidence and disprove it.

That is my argument.
​

ive read bits and pieces of this thread, and just my two cents

1. if you want a debate you have to set the format, normally opening statements, rebuttals, counter rebuttals, closing statement, then you leave it, constant tooing and froing is not a debate, its an argument. this thread does nothing to clarify the points of either side.
2. you cannot debate an issue using different frames of reference, either the scientific approach needs to cede to the spiritual, or vice versa.
3. arguing matters of faith is a pointless exercise, either you believe or you dont, which goes back to my first point, the purpose should be to elucidate both view points and then let people read it. its not about winning in the traditional sense, if that was the case there have been, with all due respect to those taking part, far superior minds on both sides who would have laid the matter of whether there is scientifc evidnece for religious miracle to rest a long time ago.

As others have pointed out its far easier to prove miracles using a philosophical framework but I deliberately went down his path.

I have all the time in the world for him to go back and forth for a topic of his choosing.

Then it will be my turn to ask scientifically prove his belief in No Creator, No God.

Thanks


​

 

[Champ_Pal]

I have explained everything I have to. I am not going to repeat again and again. I have posted the same rebuttal at least 10 times.

If you want to base your argument on faith that Prophet PBUh can jump timelines and come back to our timeline as he has the will of God behind him, then I have nothing to add. You can believe whatever you want.

I will not respond until you come up with a better argument. This jumping time dimensions will not work in reality. Physics does not agree to the way night journey is done. But if you are a believer, then nothing is impossible for God.

Again, I will not respond anymore until you come up with a better or newer argument. Good luck.

 

[LordJames]

I have explained everything I have to. I am not going to repeat again and again. I have posted the same rebuttal at least 10 times.

If you want to base your argument on faith that Prophet PBUh can jump timelines and come back to our timeline as he has the will of God behind him, then I have nothing to add. You can believe whatever you want.

I will not respond until you come up with a better argument. This jumping time dimensions will not work in reality. Physics does not agree to the way night journey is done. But if you are a believer, then nothing is impossible for God.

Again, I will not respond anymore until you come up with a better or newer argument. Good luck.​

Dear @Champ_Pal​

You haven't explained anything at all but provided conjecture and no scientific evidence and no mathematical calculations.

You also have not refuted a groundbreaking theoretical framework based on

Kletetschka 3D Time Concept (Peer Reviewed Scientific Paper)​

And your arguments about "no evidence" have already been answered and you didn't respond, consider these:

1. Atoms was a "speculation" by Democritus (around 460 BC)​
2. Black Holes was "speculation" by Albert Einstein (1879-1955)​
3. Gravitational waves were speculation Albert Einstein paper (1916) but observed almost 100 years later in 2015.​

• In 1799, you would have denied Atoms being there was no evidence​
• In 1970, you would have denied Black holes because there was no evidence​
• In 2014, you would have denied Gravitational waves​

Everything in science starts as "speculation" and then a "theory" and then a framework which is tested until it is either proven or declared false. this is how science works.

So you need to either mathematically disprove it or accept it as a possibility or a probability. ​

Dear @Champ_Pal

I appreciate you making the screen resolution bigger for my eyes but I read 2 days ago which you wrote. However, you neither read or understood what I wrote 24 hours later.

Please read and refute what is being written and ask for clarification if something is not clear and I will be happy to explain. I am going to clearly reference everything I say and provide links for you to check but I am after all human and due to my (age & eyes) I make mistakes so please point out errors which can be corrected.

I have not done screenshots I have given evidence, links and summarized the concepts for you to read, check, verify and refute.

Kletetschka 3D Time Concept (Peer Reviewed Scientific Paper)

This paper introduces a theoretical framework based on three-dimensional time, where the three temporal dimensions emerge from fundamental symmetry requirements. The necessity for exactly three temporal dimensions arises from observed quantum-classical-cosmological transitions that manifest at three distinct scales: Planck-scale quantum phenomena, interaction-scale processes, and cosmological evolution. These temporal scales directly generate three particle generations through eigenvalue equations of the temporal metric, naturally explaining both the number of generations and their mass hierarchy.

Where is a Theory in Physics?

A well-supported, comprehensive explanation of an aspect of the natural world, formed from a collection of verified facts, principles, and laws that are integrated into a self-consistent framework.

Where is a Framework in Physics?

A framework is a fundamental structure or set of rules, assumptions, and mathematical tools that provides a way to describe and analyze physical systems, guiding the formulation of theories and the solution of problems

Where is the Discussion?

I can argue with your AI screenshots but instead I have moved the argument and presented a theoretical model and gone even beyond and given a framework (see definitions above)

Why your AI screenshots are irrelevant?​

1. They do not discuss a multidimensional time model.​

Why your Time Dilation argument made 48 hours ago no longer works?

Because in your model time is linear (as proposed by Albert Einstein) but in Kletetschka 3D Time Concept time is not a single linear progression but has three independent axes, similar to space. In his model, time is the fundamental "canvas" of the universe, and space is a secondary effect.

Time Dilation is a concept is a concept from Albert Einstein [1879-1955] theories (specifically from Special relativity) and it is when we understood time to be a singular dimension.

We now know that time has multiple dimensions so the older concept of time dilation cannot be predicted because in a multidimensional time.

Why your argument about "Speculative" Physics is wrong?

Everything in Physics starts as a speculation but it needs to be grounded in Math and not Guesswork, let me give you 3 examples (from physics) of what started out as speculations and now are observable:​

1. Atoms was a "speculation" by Democritus (around 460 BC)​
2. Black Holes was "speculation" by Albert Einstein (1879-1955)​
3. Gravitational waves were speculation Albert Einstein paper (1916) but observed almost 100 years later in 2015.​

Suggested background reading for your argument:

Your argument (and old understanding) of Time Dilation is discussed in "A Brief History of Time" by Stephen Hawkins [1942-2018]​

1. Wrote the Thesis in 1965 and this is his PhD Thesis (for laymen)​
2. Published in 1983 (first edition)​

I read this years ago as a boy but I am confident after all these years that it is one of the best books on the subject which you are describing.

What is your Job?

Please:​

1. Read​
2. Understand​
3. Respond to what is being written​
4. Prove it to be impossible!​

If you cannot prove the theoretical model and framework to be impossible then it is in the realms of possibility.

Sherlock Holmes:

When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth.

Thanks for your time.
​

World's best physicists are working on testing this theoretical framework and Dr Günther Kletetschka might be recommended for noble prize for changing our perception of time (from being single to more than one dimensions).

You don't get to dismiss noble prize level research and discovery by pasting screenshots!

Either accept as a possibility or probability or disprove it.

Thanks​

 

[Champ_Pal]

Dear @Champ_Pal​

You haven't explained anything at all but provided conjecture and no scientific evidence and no mathematical calculations.

You also have not refuted a groundbreaking theoretical framework based on

Kletetschka 3D Time Concept (Peer Reviewed Scientific Paper)​

And your arguments about "no evidence" have already been answered and you didn't respond, consider these:

1. Atoms was a "speculation" by Democritus (around 460 BC)​
2. Black Holes was "speculation" by Albert Einstein (1879-1955)​
3. Gravitational waves were speculation Albert Einstein paper (1916) but observed almost 100 years later in 2015.​

• In 1799, you would have denied Atoms being there was no evidence​
• In 1970, you would have denied Black holes because there was no evidence​
• In 2014, you would have denied Gravitational waves​

Everything in science starts as "speculation" and then a "theory" and then a framework which is tested until it is either proven or declared false. this is how science works.

So you need to either mathematically disprove it or accept it as a possibility or a probability.


World's best physicists are working on testing this theoretical framework and Dr Günther Kletetschka might be recommended for noble prize for changing our perception of time (from being single to more than one dimensions).

You don't get to dismiss noble prize level research and discovery by pasting screenshots!

Either accept as a possibility or probability or disprove it.

Thanks​

So you are basing your argument on what once was a speculation is now true?

There is a difference between showing the existence of Atoms or Blackholes or Gravitational laws versus Having multiple time dimensions and traveling in them physically and coming back to our time dimension without altering anything.

Your theory requires faith. I have shown you that traveling in an alternate time dimension and that too at the speed of light will potentially end the person in a parallel universe or some alternate reality. Time dilation laws may or may not apply depending on the Universal constants. Existing physics and its laws will break. Time dimension is not a place with coordinates that you can travel. One can travel in a 3 dimension or even multi dimensional spatial coordinates. Not time dimension. Time is not a place that you can travel through.

The only way one can travel through an alternate time dimension is with someone with supernatural powers aka beyond physical laws aka God's will aka faith in God.

Goodluck with that. Just because Math equations prove the existence of time dimension does not mean one can travel through it. If you do not get this simple thing, I don't know what to say. For the last time, Time is not something that you can travel into or through. The only way time travel is possible in our Universe is only traveling into future. No one can go in the past. The arrow of time only goes forward. The forward time travel can only achieved through time dilation by traveling at the speed of light or getting close to it.

You need faith to believe in what Prophet PBUH did to achieve night journey. Saying that he traveling nonchalantly in a different time dimension at speeds closer to light speed and when he jumped back into our time dimension, nothing has changed is silly.

Again, come up with a different scientific evidence. Your current claim does not work.

 

[LordJames]

So you are basing your argument on what once was a speculation is now true?

There is a difference between showing the existence of Atoms or Blackholes or Gravitational laws versus Having multiple time dimensions and traveling in them physically and coming back to our time dimension without altering anything.

Your theory requires faith. I have shown you that traveling in an alternate time dimension and that too at the speed of light will potentially end the person in a parallel universe or some alternate reality. Time dilation laws may or may not apply depending on the Universal constants. Existing physics and its laws will break. Time dimension is not a place with coordinates that you can travel. One can travel in a 3 dimension or even multi dimensional spatial coordinates. Not time dimension. Time is not a place that you can travel through.

The only way one can travel through an alternate time dimension is with someone with supernatural powers aka beyond physical laws aka God's will aka faith in God.

Goodluck with that. Just because Math equations prove the existence of time dimension does not mean one can travel through it. If you do not get this simple thing, I don't know what to say. For the last time, Time is not something that you can travel into or through. The only way time travel is possible in our Universe is only traveling into future. No one can go in the past. The arrow of time only goes forward. The forward time travel can only achieved through time dilation by traveling at the speed of light or getting close to it.

You need faith to believe in what Prophet PBUH did to achieve night journey. Saying that he traveling nonchalantly in a different time dimension at speeds closer to light speed and when he jumped back into our time dimension, nothing has changed is silly.

Again, come up with a different scientific evidence. Your current claim does not work.

View attachment 157285

Dear @Champ_Pal

I am Sorry but you are incorrect and here is why even using your old dated understanding of time being a singular dimension and then I am superimposing multidimensional time (which you have been unable to refute/deny).

Your argument is based upon "backwards time travel" being theoretical while forward time travel is proven and here is the science, I will provide evidence for both.​

Time as a Dimension in Physics​

• In Einstein’s Special and General Relativity, time is mathematically treated as a dimension — the fourth coordinate in spacetime.​
• Just as an event in space is described by (x,y,z)(x,y,z)(x,y,z), an event in spacetime is described by (t,x,y,z)(t, x, y, z)(t,x,y,z).​
• Time is not “a place,” but neither are x,y,zx, y, zx,y,z — they are coordinate labels. Physics treats time and space symmetrically in the geometry of spacetime, except time has a different sign convention (Minkowski metric: −c2t2+x2+y2+z2-c^2 t^2 + x^2 + y^2 + z^2−c2t2+x2+y2+z2).​

So: while you can’t “walk into” time like a room, physics does treat time as a dimension in which trajectories exist (worldlines).​

Forward vs Backward Travel in Time (is possible)​

• Forward time travel is experimentally confirmed:​
  • GPS satellites experience measurable time dilation relative to Earth clocks.​
  • Muon decay experiments show moving particles live longer due to relativistic time dilation.​
• Backward time travel is where physics becomes theoretical:​
  • Solutions to Einstein’s field equations (e.g., Gödel spacetime, Tipler cylinders, Kerr black holes) admit Closed Timelike Curves (CTCs), which mathematically allow looping into the past.​
  • But most physicists suspect these are unphysical due to stability issues, quantum effects, or energy requirements.​

The limiting factor in "backwards time travel" is the massive amounts of energy required to stabilize the system.

Then your argument that "Time is not something that you can travel into or through" is not correct and here is the evidence that physics doesn't forbid it.

Multiple Time Dimensions Hypotheses​

Your objection is: “Time is not something you can travel through.” But there are theoretical models in physics that go further than Einstein’s 4D spacetime:

• String theory & M-theory: Usually assume 1 time dimension, 9–10 spatial. But some versions (so-called “two-time physics”) explore multiple time dimensions mathematically.
• Itzhak Bars’ Two-Time Physics (Caltech): Proposes that extra time dimensions exist, and what we perceive as 3+1D spacetime is a “shadow” of a higher-dimensional reality.
• These models are not experimentally verified — but they show physics does not forbid the math of multiple time dimensions.

Once again, I am providing evidence, equations and references of studies to refute your point of view so you need to go beyond screenshots and actually address what is being said.

Dear @Champ_Pal

I appreciate you making the screen resolution bigger for my eyes but I read 2 days ago which you wrote. However, you neither read or understood what I wrote 24 hours later.

Please read and refute what is being written and ask for clarification if something is not clear and I will be happy to explain. I am going to clearly reference everything I say and provide links for you to check but I am after all human and due to my (age & eyes) I make mistakes so please point out errors which can be corrected.

I have not done screenshots I have given evidence, links and summarized the concepts for you to read, check, verify and refute.

Kletetschka 3D Time Concept (Peer Reviewed Scientific Paper)

This paper introduces a theoretical framework based on three-dimensional time, where the three temporal dimensions emerge from fundamental symmetry requirements. The necessity for exactly three temporal dimensions arises from observed quantum-classical-cosmological transitions that manifest at three distinct scales: Planck-scale quantum phenomena, interaction-scale processes, and cosmological evolution. These temporal scales directly generate three particle generations through eigenvalue equations of the temporal metric, naturally explaining both the number of generations and their mass hierarchy.

Where is a Theory in Physics?

A well-supported, comprehensive explanation of an aspect of the natural world, formed from a collection of verified facts, principles, and laws that are integrated into a self-consistent framework.

Where is a Framework in Physics?

A framework is a fundamental structure or set of rules, assumptions, and mathematical tools that provides a way to describe and analyze physical systems, guiding the formulation of theories and the solution of problems

Where is the Discussion?

I can argue with your AI screenshots but instead I have moved the argument and presented a theoretical model and gone even beyond and given a framework (see definitions above)

Why your AI screenshots are irrelevant?​

1. They do not discuss a multidimensional time model.​

Why your Time Dilation argument made 48 hours ago no longer works?

Because in your model time is linear (as proposed by Albert Einstein) but in Kletetschka 3D Time Concept time is not a single linear progression but has three independent axes, similar to space. In his model, time is the fundamental "canvas" of the universe, and space is a secondary effect.

Time Dilation is a concept is a concept from Albert Einstein [1879-1955] theories (specifically from Special relativity) and it is when we understood time to be a singular dimension.

We now know that time has multiple dimensions so the older concept of time dilation cannot be predicted because in a multidimensional time.

Why your argument about "Speculative" Physics is wrong?

Everything in Physics starts as a speculation but it needs to be grounded in Math and not Guesswork, let me give you 3 examples (from physics) of what started out as speculations and now are observable:​

1. Atoms was a "speculation" by Democritus (around 460 BC)​
2. Black Holes was "speculation" by Albert Einstein (1879-1955)​
3. Gravitational waves were speculation Albert Einstein paper (1916) but observed almost 100 years later in 2015.​

Suggested background reading for your argument:

Your argument (and old understanding) of Time Dilation is discussed in "A Brief History of Time" by Stephen Hawkins [1942-2018]​

1. Wrote the Thesis in 1965 and this is his PhD Thesis (for laymen)​
2. Published in 1983 (first edition)​

I read this years ago as a boy but I am confident after all these years that it is one of the best books on the subject which you are describing.

What is your Job?

Please:​

1. Read​
2. Understand​
3. Respond to what is being written​
4. Prove it to be impossible!​

If you cannot prove the theoretical model and framework to be impossible then it is in the realms of possibility.

Sherlock Holmes:

When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth.

Thanks for your time.
​

I am Sorry but unable to take your screenshots as evidence to refute both proven and theoretical models.

Thanks

 

[Champ_Pal]

Dear @Champ_Pal

I am Sorry but you are incorrect and here is why even using your old dated understanding of time being a singular dimension and then I am superimposing multidimensional time (which you have been unable to refute/deny).

Your argument is based upon "backwards time travel" being theoretical while forward time travel is proven and here is the science, I will provide evidence for both.​

For the nth time, I am not saying time is a single dimension. Time can have multiple dimensions. But traveling through them is what is not possible. Even if anyone does, it can create alternate realities, parallel universes.....

Time as a Dimension in Physics​

• In Einstein’s Special and General Relativity, time is mathematically treated as a dimension — the fourth coordinate in spacetime.​
• Just as an event in space is described by (x,y,z)(x,y,z)(x,y,z), an event in spacetime is described by (t,x,y,z)(t, x, y, z)(t,x,y,z).​
• Time is not “a place,” but neither are x,y,zx, y, zx,y,z — they are coordinate labels. Physics treats time and space symmetrically in the geometry of spacetime, except time has a different sign convention (Minkowski metric: −c2t2+x2+y2+z2-c^2 t^2 + x^2 + y^2 + z^2−c2t2+x2+y2+z2).​

So: while you can’t “walk into” time like a room, physics does treat time as a dimension in which trajectories exist (worldlines).​

Forward vs Backward Travel in Time (is possible)​

• Forward time travel is experimentally confirmed:​
  • GPS satellites experience measurable time dilation relative to Earth clocks.​
  • Muon decay experiments show moving particles live longer due to relativistic time dilation.​
• Backward time travel is where physics becomes theoretical:​
  • Solutions to Einstein’s field equations (e.g., Gödel spacetime, Tipler cylinders, Kerr black holes) admit Closed Timelike Curves (CTCs), which mathematically allow looping into the past.​
  • But most physicists suspect these are unphysical due to stability issues, quantum effects, or energy requirements.​

The limiting factor in "backwards time travel" is the massive amounts of energy required to stabilize the system.

Then your argument that "Time is not something that you can travel into or through" is not correct and here is the evidence that physics doesn't forbid it.

Your post itself says it requires massive amounts of energy to stablize the system. Where did Propeht pbuh get that energy from? Are you saying Prophet pbuh bent the curvature of space-time using gazillions of energy to stablize the system? Come on!! Think logically. This wht backward time travel is impossible. Unless humans harness the energy of blackhole and use it to curve the space-time fabric. Are you saying Prophet pbuh (An illiterate man) did all of that?

Multiple Time Dimensions Hypotheses​

Your objection is: “Time is not something you can travel through.” But there are theoretical models in physics that go further than Einstein’s 4D spacetime:

• String theory & M-theory: Usually assume 1 time dimension, 9–10 spatial. But some versions (so-called “two-time physics”) explore multiple time dimensions mathematically.
• Itzhak Bars’ Two-Time Physics (Caltech): Proposes that extra time dimensions exist, and what we perceive as 3+1D spacetime is a “shadow” of a higher-dimensional reality.
• These models are not experimentally verified — but they show physics does not forbid the math of multiple time dimensions.

Once again, I am providing evidence, equations and references of studies to refute your point of view so you need to go beyond screenshots and actually address what is being said.

You are only giving me evidence of existence of multiple time dimensions which I never denied. Theoritically it is possible for them to exist. The issue is traveling through them and the consequences of it. You do not talk about. You know the outcomes of such travels. So you conveniently ignore it. You are just strawmanning my argument and beating the hell out of it.
Again, existence of multiple time dimensions is onething. Traveling though them and jumping into alternate time dimensions is not possible as the outcomes can be catastrophic and unpredictable.

I am Sorry but unable to take your screenshots as evidence to refute both proven and theoretical models.

Thanks

There are no scientific papers I could find that can put the answer in concise form. AI does the job for me.

Mutliple time dimensions existence is only in theory. Not proven. If you prove, you will get a nobel prize.

Of course you will not take Google Gemini AI answers seriously. It goes against your claim.

Again, come back with new theories. This jumping to alternate time dimensions and zooming at the speed of light on Buraq will not work.

 

[LordJames]

For the nth time, I am not saying time is a single dimension. Time can have multiple dimensions. But traveling through them is what is not possible. Even if anyone does, it can create alternate realities, parallel universes.....

Your post itself says it requires massive amounts of energy to stablize the system. Where did Propeht pbuh get that energy from? Are you saying Prophet pbuh bent the curvature of space-time using gazillions of energy to stablize the system? Come on!! Think logically. This wht backward time travel is impossible. Unless humans harness the energy of blackhole and use it to curve the space-time fabric. Are you saying Prophet pbuh (An illiterate man) did all of that?

You are only giving me evidence of existence of multiple time dimensions which I never denied. Theoritically it is possible for them to exist. The issue is traveling through them and the consequences of it. You do not talk about. You know the outcomes of such travels. So you conveniently ignore it. You are just strawmanning my argument and beating the hell out of it.
Again, existence of multiple time dimensions is onething. Traveling though them and jumping into alternate time dimensions is not possible as the outcomes can be catastrophic and unpredictable.

There are no scientific papers I could find that can put the answer in concise form. AI does the job for me.

Mutliple time dimensions existence is only in theory. Not proven. If you prove, you will get a nobel prize.

Of course you will not take Google Gemini AI answers seriously. It goes against your claim.

Again, come back with new theories. This jumping to alternate time dimensions and zooming at the speed of light on Buraq will not work.

Dear @Champ_Pal

You purposely skipped this in your response

Forward vs Backward Travel in Time (is possible)​

• Forward time travel is experimentally confirmed:
  • GPS satellites experience measurable time dilation relative to Earth clocks.
  • Muon decay experiments show moving particles live longer due to relativistic time dilation.
• Backward time travel is where physics becomes theoretical:
  • Solutions to Einstein’s field equations (e.g., Gödel spacetime, Tipler cylinders, Kerr black holes) admit Closed Timelike Curves (CTCs), which mathematically allow looping into the past.
  • But most physicists suspect these are unphysical due to stability issues, quantum effects, or energy requirements.

The limiting factor in "backwards time travel" is the massive amounts of energy required to stabilize the system.

Then your argument that "Time is not something that you can travel into or through" is not correct and here is the evidence that physics doesn't forbid it.

Either admit that is is theoretically possible or deny/refute the possibility, that's what its been about the beginning, see this post and this post from the beginning. You are moving away from the agreement (click on links).

No, you are using AI and producing text and not expanding upon the evidence or mathematical equations.

Your AI screenshots have already been debunked. By all means use AI but review the evidence, scrutinize and then post and better yet understand what you are posting.

Thanks

 

[Champ_Pal]

Dear @Champ_Pal

You purposely skipped this in your response

Forward vs Backward Travel in Time (is possible)​

• Forward time travel is experimentally confirmed:
  • GPS satellites experience measurable time dilation relative to Earth clocks.
  • Muon decay experiments show moving particles live longer due to relativistic time dilation.
• Backward time travel is where physics becomes theoretical:
  • Solutions to Einstein’s field equations (e.g., Gödel spacetime, Tipler cylinders, Kerr black holes) admit Closed Timelike Curves (CTCs), which mathematically allow looping into the past.
  • But most physicists suspect these are unphysical due to stability issues, quantum effects, or energy requirements.

The limiting factor in "backwards time travel" is the massive amounts of energy required to stabilize the system.

Then your argument that "Time is not something that you can travel into or through" is not correct and here is the evidence that physics doesn't forbid it.

Either admit that is is theoretically possible or deny/refute the possibility, that's what its been about the beginning, see this post and this post from the beginning. You are moving away from the agreement (click on links).

No, you are using AI and producing text and not expanding upon the evidence or mathematical equations.

Your AI screenshots have already been debunked. By all means use AI but review the evidence, scrutinize and then post and better yet understand what you are posting.

Thanks

Time is not something you travel into is what I meant. Traveling into alternate dimension is what I meant. My apologies if I did not word it out properly.

Sure backward travel through time requires energy that is not possible on Earth. Unless you are saying Prophet pbuh harnessed the energy of Neutron star or a blackhole and then went back in time.

I cannot believe I am still debating you on this. You have no evidence that Prophet did all that you are claiming. Even if he did, he cannot travel in alternate time dimensions without altering the reality and the problem of ending up in an alternate universe.

Until you prove how he harnessed the energy and how he traveled in alternate time dimensions(speculative physics) at the speed of light, you have no ground to stand on. Just merely posting mathematical equations does not suffice the travel. I have posted how the events will turn out in case someone tries to travel in alternate time dimensions. You do not want to address any of it. You keep saying that alternate time dimensions exist which I never denied. But traveling through them is a completely different equation. You have no idea how the events will turn out to be and according to established physics, such journey will lead to catastrophic results including ending up in alternate reality and parallel universes.

I am done with you on this. Its been 3 days. You have not given any evidence of how he journey itself was made. All we know from the story is that journey itself was made on a winged horse/donkey. As a non-believer, to me its folklore. No different to Hanuman leaping to outerspace. The story itself does not explain how the night journey was made. You need a truckload of faith to believe in such miracles. Not science. Because science in 2025 is yet to prove the physical existence of alternate time dimensions even though mathematical equations allow it. You are telling me Prophet pbuh(an illiterate man from 7th century arabia) had the knowledge of alternate time dimensions, could travel at the speed of light and could bend the curvature of space-time by harnessing quintallions of energy from Backholes/neutron stars etc...???? No where it is written in Islamic scriptures how the night journey was done. You have to take the word as God's order to believe in such miracles.

Give it a rest. Prove to me how he travelled in alternate time dimensions, how he achieved speed of light and where he harnessed the quintillions of energy to bend the space-time curvature. Until then, it is pointless to argue. All you have is faith. Which is perfectly alright. Every religious person(irrespective of religion) has faith in his scriptures. You interjecting science into a belief system is where the problem is. Good luck.

Now prove to me the lines I bolded. Don't again give me math equations and speculative theories. I agree that match allows alternate time dimensions. I never denied that. The problem itself is how he achieved the night journey. The physical travel itself in alternate time dimensions. Until you prove that, there is nothing to discuss.

 

[LordJames]

Time is not something you travel into is what I meant. Traveling into alternate dimension is what I meant. My apologies if I did not word it out properly.

Sure backward travel through time requires energy that is not possible on Earth. Unless you are saying Prophet pbuh harnessed the energy of Neutron star or a blackhole and then went back in time.

I cannot believe I am still debating you on this. You have no evidence that Prophet did all that you are claiming. Even if he did, he cannot travel in alternate time dimensions without altering the reality and the problem of ending up in an alternate universe.

Until you prove how he harnessed the energy and how he traveled in alternate time dimensions(speculative physics) at the speed of light, you have no ground to stand on. Just merely posting mathematical equations does not suffice the travel. I have posted how the events will turn out in case someone tries to travel in alternate time dimensions. You do not want to address any of it. You keep saying that alternate time dimensions exist which I never denied. But traveling through them is a completely different equation. You have no idea how the events will turn out to be and according to established physics, such journey will lead to catastrophic results including ending up in alternate reality and parallel universes.

I am done with you on this. Its been 3 days. You have not given any evidence of how he journey itself was made. All we know from the story is that journey itself was made on a winged horse/donkey. As a non-believer, to me its folklore. No different to Hanuman leaping to outerspace. The story itself does not explain how the night journey was made. You need a truckload of faith to believe in such miracles. Not science. Because science in 2025 is yet to prove the physical existence of alternate time dimensions even though mathematical equations allow it. You are telling me Prophet pbuh(an illiterate man from 7th century arabia) had the knowledge of alternate time dimensions, could travel at the speed of light and could bend the curvature of space-time by harnessing quintallions of energy from Backholes/neutron stars etc...???? No where it is written in Islamic scriptures how the night journey was done. You have to take the word as God's order to believe in such miracles.

Give it a rest. Prove to me how he travelled in alternate time dimensions, how he achieved speed of light and where he harnessed the quintillions of energy to bend the space-time curvature. Until then, it is pointless to argue. All you have is faith. Which is perfectly alright. Every religious person(irrespective of religion) has faith in his scriptures. You interjecting science into a belief system is where the problem is. Good luck.

Now prove to me the lines I bolded. Don't again give me math equations and speculative theories. I agree that match allows alternate time dimensions. I never denied that. The problem itself is how he achieved the night journey. The physical travel itself in alternate time dimensions. Until you prove that, there is nothing to discuss.

Dear @Champ_Pal

You are backing down from the deal.

We have not even discussed God or Prophet Muhammad (Peace be upon Him) or Hanuman or religion or XYZ, you keep becoming impatient and you keep inserting things and jumping arguments, we are still at Stage-1.

My job is demonstrate to you that it is possible/probable and I have done that. If you agree with the possibility of forward and backwards travel through multiple time dimensions then agree which you seem but confirm it and we will move to next stages of our discussion.

Since you seem to have accepted it then state it clearly so we can move in our discussions.

Thanks for your time and patience.

 

[Champ_Pal]

Dear @Champ_Pal

You are backing down from the deal.

We have not even discussed God or Prophet Muhammad (Peace be upon Him) or Hanuman or religion or XYZ, you keep becoming impatient and you keep inserting things and jumping arguments, we are still at Stage-1.

My job is demonstrate to you that it is possible/probable and I have done that. If you agree with the possibility of forward and backwards travel through multiple time dimensions then agree which you seem but confirm it and we will move to next stages of our discussion.

Since you seem to have accepted it then state it clearly so we can move in our discussions.

Thanks for your time and patience.

Backing down from what?

I do not have that much time to debate an unknown Mr.X over several days or weeks. If you say, we are still at stage-1, then I have no time for the upcoming stages.

You did not demonstrate anything. All you showed me is speculative physics and told me that in the future sometime in coming decades or even centuries we will discover the existance of alternate time dimensions.

I have shown you even if we physically demonstrate they exist, traveling through them at the speed of light is another thing. No human has demonstrated it let alone travel through it and comeback without breaking the laws of physics and that too by an illiterate man from 7th century Arabia. Unless he has the backing of God, this kind of stuff is not possible.

I never denied the existence of alternate time dimensions. I only said traveling through them is not possible without altering the reality and creating paradoxes and alternate universes. Prove that one can travel and then we can discuss further. NO magic invovled.

 

[LordJames]

Backing down from what?

I do not have that much time to debate an unknown Mr.X over several days or weeks. If you say, we are still at stage-1, then I have no time for the upcoming stages.

You did not demonstrate anything. All you showed me is speculative physics and told me that in the future sometime in coming decades or even centuries we will discover the existance of alternate time dimensions.

I have shown you even if we physically demonstrate they exist, traveling through them at the speed of light is another thing. No human has demonstrated it let alone travel through it and comeback without breaking the laws of physics and that too by an illiterate man from 7th century Arabia. Unless he has the backing of God, this kind of stuff is not possible.

I never denied the existence of alternate time dimensions. I only said traveling through them is not possible without altering the reality and creating paradoxes and alternate universes. Prove that one can travel and then we can discuss further. NO magic invovled.

Dear @Champ_Pal

I have shown that it is possible and therefore probable. Not brought God, magic, XYZ or anyone else into the discussion, spent 2 1/2 days patiently responding to every single one of your arguments without frustration and provided you with references and formulas to feed into AI.

Either you accept the possibility/probability OR you refute it.

As I said Atoms, Black holes etc were all theoretical at one point! Heck! Even Internet was a theory some time ago but today you have it so can't deem a theoretical matter "impossible" which is what you have been doing for 2 1/2 days without evidence.



Thanks​

 

[Champ_Pal]

Dear @Champ_Pal

I have shown that it is possible and therefore probable. Not brought God, magic, XYZ or anyone else into the discussion, spent 2 1/2 days patiently responding to every single one of your arguments without frustration and provided you with references and formulas to feed into AI.

Either you accept the possibility/probability OR you refute it.

As I said Atoms, Black holes etc were all theoretical at one point! Heck! Even Internet was a theory some time ago but today you have it so can't deem a theoretical matter "impossible" which is what you have been doing for 2 1/2 days without evidence.



Thanks​

Nope. Your thinking is wrong.

Possibility of alternate timelines existing in math equations does not mean one can travel through it. I will give you a quick example.

Its the age old grandfather paradox. If I travel through the time and kill your grandfather or your father before your dad married your mother, will you cease to exist? Just answer this and we can go further...

You think you are onto something that only existing in math and that no one has ever discovered. Then we have to believe an illiterate man from 7th century arabia knew all these things and could travel in those alternate timelines and that too at the speed of light? Man Please!!!

Without the help of some supernatural it is not possible. Then it is not science.

 

[LordJames]

Nope. Your thinking is wrong.

Possibility of alternate timelines existing in math equations does not mean one can travel through it. I will give you a quick example.

Its the age old grandfather paradox. If I travel through the time and kill your grandfather or your father before your dad married your mother, will you cease to exist? Just answer this and we can go further...

You think you are onto something that only existing in math and that no one has ever discovered. Then we have to believe an illiterate man from 7th century arabia knew all these things and could travel in those alternate timelines and that too at the speed of light? Man Please!!!

Without the help of some supernatural it is not possible. Then it is not science.​

Dear @Champ_Pal

You are still not getting it and keep thinking of time as a singular dimension when time is multi-dimensional as you have agreed.
Let me explain it to you using two-dimensional time​

If there are two or more time dimensions, events would not be constrained to a single linear order. Instead:

• Just as in 3D space you can avoid colliding with yourself by stepping sideways, in multi-time dimensions you could, in theory, “move” in a different temporal direction.
• This might mean that when you go “back,” you don’t overwrite the exact same timeline, but land in a different “coordinate” of temporal reality.

Therefore...

• In Two-Time Physics (Itzhak Bars, Caltech), extra time dimensions don’t directly mean paradox-free time travel. Instead, our 3+1D universe is seen as a “projection” from a higher-dimensional system.
• In such frameworks, consistency conditions (like Novikov’s principle) may still apply, which means paradoxes might be mathematically impossible in the first place.

Again, this is theoretically possible, please refute the exact arguments instead of accepting time being multi-dimensional but then jumping back and explaining from a singular dimensional point of view.

Be consistent in your argument.

Either you accept the possibility/probability OR you refute it.

Thanks

 

[Champ_Pal]

Dear @Champ_Pal

You are still not getting it and keep thinking of time as a singular dimension when time is multi-dimensional as you have agreed.
Let me explain it to you using two-dimensional time​

If there are two or more time dimensions, events would not be constrained to a single linear order. Instead:

• Just as in 3D space you can avoid colliding with yourself by stepping sideways, in multi-time dimensions you could, in theory, “move” in a different temporal direction.
• This might mean that when you go “back,” you don’t overwrite the exact same timeline, but land in a different “coordinate” of temporal reality.

Therefore...

• In Two-Time Physics (Itzhak Bars, Caltech), extra time dimensions don’t directly mean paradox-free time travel. Instead, our 3+1D universe is seen as a “projection” from a higher-dimensional system.
• In such frameworks, consistency conditions (like Novikov’s principle) may still apply, which means paradoxes might be mathematically impossible in the first place.

Again, this is theoretically possible, please refute the exact arguments instead of accepting time being multi-dimensional but then jumping back and explaining from a singular dimensional point of view.

Be consistent in your argument.

Either you accept the possibility/probability OR you refute it.

Thanks

First of all, you need to demonstrate that alternate timelines physically exist. Don't give me match equations. I know they allow it and never denied that. But they have not been proven yet to physically exist. So how did a 7th century illiterate Arab man knew it and achieved that? Tell me that and we can discuss further.

Your projection of, it exists in math equations and therefore Prophet PBUH achieved it and travelled at the speed of light is ridiculous to say the least. I am not going to honor replying to your messages until and unless you prove how he discovered alternate timelines and traveled at speed of light and came back to our timeline on a winged horse and did not effect the reality at all.

Dude, for the last time. Prove how he discovered alternate timelines and travelled through it. An illiterate man who sould neither read or write did all of this in 7th century? Again, no supernatural involvement and magic is allowed.

 

[anikrc1]

Time is not multidimensional. Space time is multidimensional of which one dimension is time.

 

[LordJames]

Time is not multidimensional. Space time is multidimensional of which one dimension is time.

Time being multiple dimensionsal (2 at least)

1. Two-Time Physics (2T Physics)
2. F-Theory and Multiple Dimensions

In fact, the most modern discovery is that Time has 3 Dimensions

1. Mathematical Viability of Multiple Time Dimensions

Thanks

 

[LordJames]

First of all, you need to demonstrate that alternate timelines physically exist. Don't give me match equations. I know they allow it and never denied that. But they have not been proven yet to physically exist. So how did a 7th century illiterate Arab man knew it and achieved that? Tell me that and we can discuss further.

Your projection of, it exists in math equations and therefore Prophet PBUH achieved it and travelled at the speed of light is ridiculous to say the least. I am not going to honor replying to your messages until and unless you prove how he discovered alternate timelines and traveled at speed of light and came back to our timeline on a winged horse and did not effect the reality at all.

Dude, for the last time. Prove how he discovered alternate timelines and travelled through it. An illiterate man who sould neither read or write did all of this in 7th century? Again, no supernatural involvement and magic is allowed.​

Dear @Champ_Pal

Please stop bringing XYZ into the discussion. Do you understand the words "impossible" vs "possible"?

My job from the beginning was to show you events which are theoretically possible, you no longer seem to be denying it. I have also demonstrated to you that "Grandfather paradox" is based on a singular time dimension and not applicable.

2 1/2 days to have patiently answered all your objections (in detail with references) for you to admit that this is theoretically possible.

Waiting for you to admit that yes it is scientifically and theoretically possible before we move to the next stage of discussion.

No God, Prophet Muhammad (Peace be upon Him) or Hanuman has been brought it anything except by you repeatedly.

What you are now bringing into the equation is a "philosophical argument" that a person has to be aware of the mechanics of something in order to use it (or bring it into use) and there are dead simple arguments against that:​

1. A person doesn't need to know the mechanics of an engine in order to either ride in a car or even drive it. ​
2. A villager doesn't have to know anything about science, language etc but can still drive a car!​

You are bringing philosophy into a discussion. but that is also possible (see crude and basic examples above). If you want to derail the conversation into philosophy instead of simply admitting yes this is theoretically possible we can engage in more discussions for days.

Thanks


​

 

[Champ_Pal]

Dear @Champ_Pal

Please stop bringing XYZ into the discussion. Do you understand the words "impossible" vs "possible"?​

Possible is the existence of alternate timelines.
Impossible is for a 7th century illiterate man to achieve not only hopping into alternate timelines, but achieving speed of light and then jump back to our timeline without altering the reality and not ending up in parallel universe.
I hope you understand the difference.

My job from the beginning was to show you events which are theoretically possible, you no longer seem to be denying it. I have also demonstrated to you that "Grandfather paradox" is based on a singular time dimension and not applicable.​

Theory is different from practicality. Theoretically I can jump into an alternate timeline and shave your head and come back to this reality. But practically it is not possible. Not in this century let alone 7th century.

2 1/2 days to have patiently answered all your objections (in detail with references) for you to admit that this is theoretically possible.​

You did not answer to any of my objections. All you have proved is alternate timelines exist in math equations and I never denied that. But they are yet to be discovered. O one had yet.

Waiting for you to admit that yes it is scientifically and theoretically possible before we move to the next stage of discussion.​

What do you mean I have to admit? I never denied they don’t exist mathematically. But physical existence is something completely different. I have no will to continue this BS game. You wasted nearly a whole week of working days without showing me how Prophet PBUh achieved this.

No God, Prophet Muhammad (Peace be upon Him) or Hanuman has been brought it anything except by you repeatedly.​

The entire discussion is on how Prophet PBUh achieved night journey and you are saying I am brining up prophet into this discussion?

What you are now bringing into the equation is a "philosophical argument" that a person has to be aware of the mechanics of something in order to use it (or bring it into use) and there are dead simple arguments against that:​

1. A person doesn't need to know the mechanics of an engine in order to either ride in a car or even drive it. ​
2. A villager doesn't have to know anything about science, language etc but can still drive a car!​

If he had no knowledge of any alternate timelines, how did he travel through it? The alternate timelines just magically opened for him and he did the journey?

You are bringing philosophy into a discussion. but that is also possible (see crude and basic examples above). If you want to derail the conversation into philosophy instead of simply admitting yes this is theoretically possible we can engage in more discussions for days.

Thanks​

I am not derailing anything. I am just exposing your ignorance on just because it is possible through math equations does not mean Prophet PBUh achieved this with zero divine help.

I would have accepted the journey may have happened if you are a believer because God allowed and cracked the math equations and brought all those alternate timelines to reality.
If God’s hand is there, there is nothing to discuss. In fact Prophet does not even need Buraq. Gid can simply bend the space-time fabric to allow him to go to Jerusalem and Highest heavens with a mere few steps.

The fact that Buraq a flying horse was used shows that it needed God’s intervention and you have to accept it the way it is if you are a believer. For non-believers it is just a fairytale story. No different to Jesus resurrection or Hanuman leaping into outer space.

Until and unless you prove how the alternate timelines was discovered and how prophet PBUh achieved speed of light and the. Jumped back to our timeline, as a nonbeliever to me it’s a fairytale story. For believers it is all real.

 

[LordJames]

Possible is the existence of alternate timelines.
Impossible is for a 7th century illiterate man to achieve not only hopping into alternate timelines, but achieving speed of light and then jump back to our timeline without altering the reality and not ending up in parallel universe.
I hope you understand the difference.

Theory is different from practicality. Theoretically I can jump into an alternate timeline and shave your head and come back to this reality. But practically it is not possible. Not in this century let alone 7th century.

You did not answer to any of my objections. All you have proved is alternate timelines exist in math equations and I never denied that. But they are yet to be discovered. O one had yet.

What do you mean I have to admit? I never denied they don’t exist mathematically. But physical existence is something completely different. I have no will to continue this BS game. You wasted nearly a whole week of working days without showing me how Prophet PBUh achieved this.

The entire discussion is on how Prophet PBUh achieved night journey and you are saying I am brining up prophet into this discussion?


If he had no knowledge of any alternate timelines, how did he travel through it? The alternate timelines just magically opened for him and he did the journey?

I am not derailing anything. I am just exposing your ignorance on just because it is possible through math equations does not mean Prophet PBUh achieved this with zero divine help.

I would have accepted the journey may have happened if you are a believer because God allowed and cracked the math equations and brought all those alternate timelines to reality.
If God’s hand is there, there is nothing to discuss. In fact Prophet does not even need Buraq. Gid can simply bend the space-time fabric to allow him to go to Jerusalem and Highest heavens with a mere few steps.

The fact that Buraq a flying horse was used shows that it needed God’s intervention and you have to accept it the way it is if you are a believer. For non-believers it is just a fairytale story. No different to Jesus resurrection or Hanuman leaping into outer space.

Until and unless you prove how the alternate timelines was discovered and how prophet PBUh achieved speed of light and the. Jumped back to our timeline, as a nonbeliever to me it’s a fairytale story. For believers it is all real.

Dear @Champ_Pal

Why do you keep bringing God or Braq or divine intervention into a scientific discussions, repeatedly? Have I discussed or brought it, yet? Bring it when it is discussed.

2 1/2 days and you have presented singular time dimension, Time Dilation, Grandfather paradox and all sorts of issues when I have presented solid theoretical physics.

From the beginning and repeatedly I have argued about possibility and if you don't deny it, lets move on to next stages of discussion.

We are not there, yet.

1. Does a person have to have knowledge of something in order to use it?

Please prove it and refute my crude driving example. Do all the drivers aware of how an engine or transmission works?

Thanks

 

[Champ_Pal]

Dear @Champ_Pal

Why do you keep bringing God or Braq or divine intervention into a scientific discussions, repeatedly? Have I discussed or brought it, yet? Bring it when it is discussed.

2 1/2 days and you have presented singular time dimension, Time Dilation, Grandfather paradox and all sorts of issues when I have presented solid theoretical physics.

From the beginning and repeatedly I have argued about possibility and if you don't deny it, lets move on to next stages of discussion.

We are not there, yet.

1. Does a person have to have knowledge of something in order to use it?

Please prove it and refute my crude driving example. Do all the drivers aware of how an engine or transmission works?

Thanks

Ok, then how does an illiterate man from 7th century Arabia travel in alternate timeline at the speed of light?

This whole Miraj story is about how God enabled Proohet PBUh to do superhuman feats and you are asking g me why I am bringing God into the discussion? Are you okay?
If this is just a science discussion, explain how an illiterate man from 7th century Arabia travel to heavens on a winged horse? Don’t give me math equations. It only exists in math. No one has ever discovered an alternate timelines different to ours and it is 2025 now. How did an illiterate man discover such timeline and how did he achieve speed of light? Tell me about it and I will take this discussion further.

If you keep repeating the same math equation without telling me how Proohet PBUh achieved it, it means God did it and enabled him to achieve superhuman feat. Not scientific.
Go ahead and answer me.

 

[IndoorCricket]

Its an interesting thread. But I needed a tl;dr version. I used chatGPT to summerize and explain the arguments of OP and how they fit with actual science. Heres the summary

1. Use of “Speculative Physics”​

• LordJames repeatedly appealed to ideas like “a different time dimension” or “alternate dimensions” to explain how the Night Journey could have occurred in a single night.
• The issue: while modern physics does study concepts like time dilation (Einstein’s relativity), wormholes, and higher dimensions, these are theoretical frameworks—not empirical evidence for a specific miraculous event.
• Importantly, his claims aren’t presented in a testable, falsifiable way (Karl Popper’s standard for science). If you cannot test an idea and possibly prove it wrong, it’s not science—it’s speculation or metaphysics.

---

2. Misapplication of Time Dilation​

• Champ_Pal rightly challenged him on time dilation: if a traveler experiences compressed time, the Earth should still experience the “longer” version.
  
  • Example: astronauts moving near light speed may feel like days passed, but Earth ages years.
• The Prophet’s return within the same night contradicts how relativistic time dilation works in established physics.
• LordJames avoided directly resolving this contradiction by leaning on the idea of a “different time dimension,” which sidesteps rather than addresses the physics.

---

3. Scientific Consistency vs. Miraculous Claims​

• If we’re strict: his reasoning doesn’t meet scientific standards—because he uses scientific language (dimensions, relativity) but applies it metaphorically, not mathematically.
• If we’re generous: he’s trying to create a plausibility bridge between faith and science—saying “maybe science could one day explain miracles.” That’s more in the realm of theology + philosophy of science, not falsifiable physics.

---

Conclusion​

• LordJames’s arguments make sense in a philosophical/theological way (i.e., “miracles might use laws of the universe we don’t yet understand”).
• But they don’t hold as scientific arguments—because they rely on untestable, speculative assumptions and misapplied concepts from relativity.

In other words: they are not falsifiable science, but rather faith framed in scientific language.

 

[Vikram1989]

Its an interesting thread. But I needed a tl;dr version. I used chatGPT to summerize and explain the arguments of OP and how they fit with actual science. Heres the summary

​

In other words: they are not falsifiable science, but rather faith framed in scientific language.

U did quite a good job in comprehension and comparison

 

[LordJames]

Ok, then how does an illiterate man from 7th century Arabia travel in alternate timeline at the speed of light?

This whole Miraj story is about how God enabled Proohet PBUh to do superhuman feats and you are asking g me why I am bringing God into the discussion? Are you okay?
If this is just a science discussion, explain how an illiterate man from 7th century Arabia travel to heavens on a winged horse? Don’t give me math equations. It only exists in math. No one has ever discovered an alternate timelines different to ours and it is 2025 now. How did an illiterate man discover such timeline and how did he achieve speed of light? Tell me about it and I will take this discussion further.

If you keep repeating the same math equation without telling me how Proohet PBUh achieved it, it means God did it and enabled him to achieve superhuman feat. Not scientific.
Go ahead and answer me.

Dear @Champ_Pal

The Prophet Muhammad (Peace be upon Him) did not embark upon this Journey himself therefore he didn't have to know about any of the mechanics and science behind it.

Once again, you keep bringing God and winged horse etc into it at this stage of the discussion when its not there.

Simply admit or refute the evidence providing the counter evidence for it. We will discuss your concerns at the given time, its not there yet.

Bring yourself to clearly state that you have no problems with the science so far and we will move to next stage and argue when an issue is being discussed.

Its an interesting thread. But I needed a tl;dr version. I used chatGPT to summerize and explain the arguments of OP and how they fit with actual science. Heres the summary

1. Use of “Speculative Physics”​

• LordJames repeatedly appealed to ideas like “a different time dimension” or “alternate dimensions” to explain how the Night Journey could have occurred in a single night.
• The issue: while modern physics does study concepts like time dilation (Einstein’s relativity), wormholes, and higher dimensions, these are theoretical frameworks—not empirical evidence for a specific miraculous event.
• Importantly, his claims aren’t presented in a testable, falsifiable way (Karl Popper’s standard for science). If you cannot test an idea and possibly prove it wrong, it’s not science—it’s speculation or metaphysics.

---

2. Misapplication of Time Dilation​

• Champ_Palrightly challenged him on time dilation: if a traveler experiences compressed time, the Earth should still experience the “longer” version.
  • Example: astronauts moving near light speed may feel like days passed, but Earth ages years.
• The Prophet’s return within the same night contradicts how relativistic time dilation works in established physics.
• LordJames avoided directly resolving this contradiction by leaning on the idea of a “different time dimension,” which sidesteps rather than addresses the physics.

---

3. Scientific Consistency vs. Miraculous Claims​

• If we’re strict: his reasoning doesn’t meet scientific standards—because he uses scientific language (dimensions, relativity) but applies it metaphorically, not mathematically.
• If we’re generous: he’s trying to create a plausibility bridge between faith and science—saying “maybe science could one day explain miracles.” That’s more in the realm of theology + philosophy of science, not falsifiable physics.

---

Conclusion​

• LordJames’s arguments make sense in a philosophical/theological way (i.e., “miracles might use laws of the universe we don’t yet understand”).
• But they don’t hold as scientific arguments—because they rely on untestable, speculative assumptions and misapplied concepts from relativity.

In other words: they are not falsifiable science, but rather faith framed in scientific language.

This is a general post and doesn't address the specifics at all. Please read the argument and by all means join the debate and present facts and not just copy/paste AI output.

Read and digest the argument whole and then argue.

Dear @Champ_Pal

I appreciate you making the screen resolution bigger for my eyes but I read 2 days ago which you wrote. However, you neither read or understood what I wrote 24 hours later.

Please read and refute what is being written and ask for clarification if something is not clear and I will be happy to explain. I am going to clearly reference everything I say and provide links for you to check but I am after all human and due to my (age & eyes) I make mistakes so please point out errors which can be corrected.

I have not done screenshots I have given evidence, links and summarized the concepts for you to read, check, verify and refute.

Kletetschka 3D Time Concept (Peer Reviewed Scientific Paper)

This paper introduces a theoretical framework based on three-dimensional time, where the three temporal dimensions emerge from fundamental symmetry requirements. The necessity for exactly three temporal dimensions arises from observed quantum-classical-cosmological transitions that manifest at three distinct scales: Planck-scale quantum phenomena, interaction-scale processes, and cosmological evolution. These temporal scales directly generate three particle generations through eigenvalue equations of the temporal metric, naturally explaining both the number of generations and their mass hierarchy.

Where is a Theory in Physics?

A well-supported, comprehensive explanation of an aspect of the natural world, formed from a collection of verified facts, principles, and laws that are integrated into a self-consistent framework.

Where is a Framework in Physics?

A framework is a fundamental structure or set of rules, assumptions, and mathematical tools that provides a way to describe and analyze physical systems, guiding the formulation of theories and the solution of problems

Where is the Discussion?

I can argue with your AI screenshots but instead I have moved the argument and presented a theoretical model and gone even beyond and given a framework (see definitions above)

Why your AI screenshots are irrelevant?​

1. They do not discuss a multidimensional time model.​

Why your Time Dilation argument made 48 hours ago no longer works?

Because in your model time is linear (as proposed by Albert Einstein) but in Kletetschka 3D Time Concept time is not a single linear progression but has three independent axes, similar to space. In his model, time is the fundamental "canvas" of the universe, and space is a secondary effect.

Time Dilation is a concept is a concept from Albert Einstein [1879-1955] theories (specifically from Special relativity) and it is when we understood time to be a singular dimension.

We now know that time has multiple dimensions so the older concept of time dilation cannot be predicted because in a multidimensional time.

Why your argument about "Speculative" Physics is wrong?

Everything in Physics starts as a speculation but it needs to be grounded in Math and not Guesswork, let me give you 3 examples (from physics) of what started out as speculations and now are observable:​

1. Atoms was a "speculation" by Democritus (around 460 BC)​
2. Black Holes was "speculation" by Albert Einstein (1879-1955)​
3. Gravitational waves were speculation Albert Einstein paper (1916) but observed almost 100 years later in 2015.​

Suggested background reading for your argument:

Your argument (and old understanding) of Time Dilation is discussed in "A Brief History of Time" by Stephen Hawkins [1942-2018]​

1. Wrote the Thesis in 1965 and this is his PhD Thesis (for laymen)​
2. Published in 1983 (first edition)​

I read this years ago as a boy but I am confident after all these years that it is one of the best books on the subject which you are describing.

What is your Job?

Please:​

1. Read​
2. Understand​
3. Respond to what is being written​
4. Prove it to be impossible!​

If you cannot prove the theoretical model and framework to be impossible then it is in the realms of possibility.

Sherlock Holmes:

When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth.

Thanks for your time.
​

Again, read and argue.

U did quite a good job in comprehension and comparison

If a Muslim said "Sky appears blue" and someone said "Sky is pink" you will agree with the second so your opinion doesn't mean a lot.

Thanks for your time.

 

[RidiculousMan]

@Champ_Pal and @LordJames I'd like to add two bits and a bit.

Firstly the concept of time as known in current physics, at least to the bodies larger than quantum sized follows that of given by Einstein in his Special and General Relativity.

Basically time is another dimension just like space which can be changed and be moved forward in, like distances.

Now the problem is. Before Einstein's theories and Minkowski's Spacetime explanation. It was thought in science that time was an absolute entity. That no matter what you do, how you move, how your variables as a body in this world is, you cannot change the way time ticks. It ticks the same for everyone, everywhere in the Universe.

Later science found out that Newton's concepts of time was incomplete and that time is not absolute. Rather it varies. Everyone experiences time in their own frame the same (same amount of ticks) but if they can see each other's reference frame. They'll see each other's time moving differently. An observer at rest would see the clock of a fast moving reference body, move very slowly compared to his own clock.

This idea changed physics for scientists. Now just like Newton's concept of time. This is the world for now. World where we can scientifically check that time is variable in some ways and that it can be tinkered with. But there's no reason to say or believe that physics cannot find more complete laws. In fact we might, if in the future scientists can unite the quantum and the cosmic worlds. We might have an even more complete definition of time then.

What Einstein showed that time is not absolute in some way and that it is more nuanced than what we think. Not even time but also events are experienced differently to different bodies in different frames of references. Based on this we cannot rule out that there might be more to the concept of time than we understand currently.

Muslims believe that the explanations and incidents in Quran are the real explanations of the world and science simply is trying to catch up with it.

 

[Champ_Pal]

@Champ_Pal and @LordJames I'd like to add two bits and a bit.

Firstly the concept of time as known in current physics, at least to the bodies larger than quantum sized follows that of given by Einstein in his Special and General Relativity.

Basically time is another dimension just like space which can be changed and be moved forward in, like distances.

Now the problem is. Before Einstein's theories and Minkowski's Spacetime explanation. It was thought in science that time was an absolute entity. That no matter what you do, how you move, how your variables as a body in this world is, you cannot change the way time ticks. It ticks the same for everyone, everywhere in the Universe.

Later science found out that Newton's concepts of time was incomplete and that time is not absolute. Rather it varies. Everyone experiences time in their own frame the same (same amount of ticks) but if they can see each other's reference frame. They'll see each other's time moving differently. An observer at rest would see the clock of a fast moving reference body, move very slowly compared to his own clock.

This idea changed physics for scientists. Now just like Newton's concept of time. This is the world for now. World where we can scientifically check that time is variable in some ways and that it can be tinkered with. But there's no reason to say or believe that physics cannot find more complete laws. In fact we might, if in the future scientists can unite the quantum and the cosmic worlds. We might have an even more complete definition of time then.

What Einstein showed that time is not absolute in some way and that it is more nuanced than what we think. Not even time but also events are experienced differently to different bodies in different frames of references. Based on this we cannot rule out that there might be more to the concept of time than we understand currently.

Muslims believe that the explanations and incidents in Quran are the real explanations of the world and science simply is trying to catch up with it.

Agreed. Science is always self critiquing and self improving. With each new evidence, it updates its own theories. That is the greatness of science.

I never denied that alternate time dimensions do not exist. But to access those dimensions, traveling at speed of light, bending of space-time curvature etc are not possible for a human. Much less for an illiterate person from 7th century Arabia. He needed the assistance of supernatural to do all those things. By the way, Science has not discovered any physical time dimensions other than ours. It exists in math equations. Hence the skeptical side of a person doing all those things without supernatural assistance is not possible. I have mentioned this many many times. God has to be involved in each and every step of Miraj and Isra. Without that, none of that would have been possible. When it comes to Supernatural and God, it becomes faith.
I am tired of explaining this in this thread.

 

[RidiculousMan]

Agreed. Science is always self critiquing and self improving. With each new evidence, it updates its own theories. That is the greatness of science.

I never denied that alternate time dimensions do not exist. But to access those dimensions, traveling at speed of light, bending of space-time curvature etc are not possible for a human. Much less for an illiterate person from 7th century Arabia. He needed the assistance of supernatural to do all those things. By the way, Science has not discovered any physical time dimensions other than ours. It exists in math equations. Hence the skeptical side of a person doing all those things without supernatural assistance is not possible. I have mentioned this many many times. God has to be involved in each and every step of Miraj and Isra. Without that, none of that would have been possible. When it comes to Supernatural and God, it becomes faith.
I am tired of explaining this in this thread.

We currently do not have the means to send human at that speed. But theory is scientifically sound. In fact things that move that fast in this world. Like particles in particle accelerators, do experience time differently. So there's no bottleneck to suggest that we cannot achieve these speeds for humans. It's only a matter of time.

Time is a real dimension. It's not only theory but also practical. When you see a small particle at rest with a microscope it decays after a certain time as per its half-life time.

But if you send that same particle in a particle in a particle accelerator very fast, it dies much later. Its half-life extends. We basically made that particle exist / life longer for us.

Also when you take support of science in refuting incident of Miraj as falsehood. You cannot pick and choose on science's support when it comes to the explanation and understanding of time and its implications both theocratically and physically.

That's a basic step you have to agree on when it comes to defending an argument.

 

[Champ_Pal]

Dear @Champ_Pal

The Prophet Muhammad (Peace be upon Him) did not embark upon this Journey himself therefore he didn't have to know about any of the mechanics and science behind it.

Thank you for finally admitting he had supernatural help aka God's help. Pheeeew!!! It took 1 week for you to admit this.

Once again, you keep bringing God and winged horse etc into it at this stage of the discussion when its not there.

The entire discussion is on Isra and Miraj. So obviously Buraq and God has to be involved. What do you mean at this stage? We have been discussing this since Monday and you are still saying we are still at stage-1 after 1 week? No one has time to discuss someone over the internet for a month. Good luck finding one.

Simply admit or refute the evidence providing the counter evidence for it. We will discuss your concerns at the given time, its not there yet.

What is there to refute? You provided evidence of the existence of alternate timelines which I never denied. My issue is about accessing those timelines , traveling at light speed and bending of spacetime curvature and jumping back to our timeline without ending up in parallel universes..... All of this without any supernatural help? It is faith.

Bring yourself to clearly state that you have no problems with the science so far and we will move to next stage and argue when an issue is being discussed.

Did I ever said I have problems with alternate timelines? It is speculative physics. What is there to be discuss on this?

This is a general post and doesn't address the specifics at all. Please read the argument and by all means join the debate and present facts and not just copy/paste AI output.

I cannot find science articles specifically for traveling in alternate timelines. So I had to ask AI. It searches the internet including science articles and gives a concise answer.

Read and digest the argument whole and then argue.

I have digested it many days ago and also pooped it out. You want me to digest after 1 week? You are getting super close to being a troll. I am still giving you benefit of the doubt.

Again, read and argue.

Are you okay and do you understand English?

If a Muslim said "Sky appears blue" and someone said "Sky is pink" you will agree with the second so your opinion doesn't mean a lot.

Thanks for your time.

As a Muslim you have to believe that Sky is a thing and God holds it in its place so that it does not fall on earth and crush us. I am sure you will argue about this too....

 

[Champ_Pal]

@LordJames, until you answer how Prophet pbuh skipped to alternate timelines, traveled at the speed of light and bent the space-time curvature and jumped back into our timeline without ending up in alternate reality and parallel universes, I am not going to post on this thread anymore.

This is my last post on this thread until you answer above. Don't keep repeating the same math equations about the existence of alternate time dimensions. I never said they don't exist. So don't strawman and waste your time and my time. Answer my above questions in bold and we will continue. I am perfectly okay if it is faith. One can believe in anything. Good luck.

 

[baggy blue]

the issue is NOT whether there is one God or hundred. the problem is all powerful God sending an angel with ayaths to a person living in middle east to start shariath. . and also giving him privileges to marry........., introducing jisya to non believers, killing kafirs etc..
as someone pointed here, if god cared about belief, the all powerful could have wired us that way.

Hindus believe in self realisation and moksha which i believe is exactly prophet too was trying to convey. we have high regards for him as he too was self realised.
And miraj , it was only about raising the frequency while you meditate and feel the union with the higher energy.
hope i have not caused any trouble. that wasn't the intention.

 

[LordJames]

Thank you for finally admitting he had supernatural help aka God's help. Pheeeew!!! It took 1 week for you to admit this.

The entire discussion is on Isra and Miraj. So obviously Buraq and God has to be involved. What do you mean at this stage? We have been discussing this since Monday and you are still saying we are still at stage-1 after 1 week? No one has time to discuss someone over the internet for a month. Good luck finding one.

What is there to refute? You provided evidence of the existence of alternate timelines which I never denied. My issue is about accessing those timelines , traveling at light speed and bending of spacetime curvature and jumping back to our timeline without ending up in parallel universes..... All of this without any supernatural help? It is faith.

Did I ever said I have problems with alternate timelines? It is speculative physics. What is there to be discuss on this?

I cannot find science articles specifically for traveling in alternate timelines. So I had to ask AI. It searches the internet including science articles and gives a concise answer.

I have digested it many days ago and also pooped it out. You want me to digest after 1 week? You are getting super close to being a troll. I am still giving you benefit of the doubt.

Are you okay and do you understand English?

As a Muslim you have to believe that Sky is a thing and God holds it in its place so that it does not fall on earth and crush us. I am sure you will argue about this too....

@LordJames, until you answer how Prophet pbuh skipped to alternate timelines, traveled at the speed of light and bent the space-time curvature and jumped back into our timeline without ending up in alternate reality and parallel universes, I am not going to post on this thread anymore.

This is my last post on this thread until you answer above. Don't keep repeating the same math equations about the existence of alternate time dimensions. I never said they don't exist. So don't strawman and waste your time and my time. Answer my above questions in bold and we will continue. I am perfectly okay if it is faith. One can believe in anything. Good luck.

Dear @Champ_Pal

Repeated multiple times that you keep inserting God and Buraq into the conversation and I keep saying that we will discuss these matters calmly and in stages.

Not once have I mentioned God, religion, XYZ or anything at all but you keep jumping to it repeatedly. When I mention "God" then by all means mention "God", right now not said a single thing.

For now, I have just written what is said below.

We currently do not have the means to send human at that speed. But theory is scientifically sound. In fact things that move that fast in this world. Like particles in particle accelerators, do experience time differently. So there's no bottleneck to suggest that we cannot achieve these speeds for humans. It's only a matter of time.

Time is a real dimension. It's not only theory but also practical. When you see a small particle at rest with a microscope it decays after a certain time as per its half-life time.

But if you send that same particle in a particle in a particle accelerator very fast, it dies much later. Its half-life extends. We basically made that particle exist / life longer for us.

Also when you take support of science in refuting incident of Miraj as falsehood. You cannot pick and choose on science's support when it comes to the explanation and understanding of time and its implications both theocratically and physically.

That's a basic step you have to agree on when it comes to defending an argument.

Please accept the theoretical possibility of time being multiple dimensions and ability to travel through these dimension so we can move to the next stage of the discussion.

By all means, when I bring God into the discussion then address "God".

Right now, we are discussing science and you have been unable to refute it so simply admit it openly so we can move the discussion along.

Thanks

 

[RidiculousMan]

Please accept the theoretical possibility of time being multiple dimensions and ability to travel through these dimension so we can move to the next stage of the discussion.

By all means, when I bring God into the discussion then address "God".

Right now, we are discussing science and you have been unable to refute it so simply admit it openly so we can move the discussion along.

Thanks

Of course it is real. We know theoretically and practically there's at least 1 time dimension. Making it a total of 4 dimensions (3 of space and 1 of time). Now there are theories that suggest there maybe many more dimensions. One notable theory is string theory.

 

[LordJames]

Of course it is real. We know theoretically and practically there's at least 1 time dimension. Making it a total of 4 dimensions (3 of space and 1 of time). Now there are theories that suggest there maybe many more dimensions. One notable theory is string theory.

Dear @RidiculousMan

You are talking about the previous understanding and I have explained it here

Now even time is multidimensional and I will skip (the intermediate discussions) to this groundbreaking theoretical framework based on

Kletetschka 3D Time Concept (Peer Reviewed Scientific Paper)

@Champ_Pal is not denying it because he cannot, this is theoretical physics and as soon as he makes it explicitly clear we can move the discussion forwards and discuss other aspects.

Nobody can deny this!

Almost a week of discussion on pure theoretical physics, not brought God, religion or anything else and when I do they can bring their objections.

For right now, not a single person on Earth can deny that space and (now) time are both multi-dimensional.

 

[Champ_Pal]

@LordJames, I will not respond until you tell me how the night journey was achieved. Giving speculative physics as answer does not work.
No human can travel in alternate time dimensions, achieve light speed and bend space time curvature without supernatural assistance.
If you cannot answer, it’s ok. Believing in miracles is one’s own choice. I don’t not have weeks and months of time to argue with someone over the internet. Good luck. Until you provide evidence as to how it was achieved physically , I will not respond.

 

[LordJames]

@LordJames, I will not respond until you tell me how the night journey was achieved. Giving speculative physics as answer does not work.
No human can travel in alternate time dimensions, achieve light speed and bend space time curvature without supernatural assistance.
If you cannot answer, it’s ok. Believing in miracles is one’s own choice. I don’t not have weeks and months of time to argue with someone over the internet. Good luck. Until you provide evidence as to how it was achieved physically , I will not respond.

Dear @Champ_Pal

Time travel is proven to be possible and already proven to be possible by science.

Prove it! What is your evidence that it is "not possible at all"?

Pay close attention to the colored word and provide scientific evidence. Please don't discuss God or religion or XYZ from purely scientific point of view prove that it is "not possible at all".

You can that not proven yet or not possible using today's constraints etc but you cannot say that "not possible at all".

Thanks

 

[Champ_Pal]

Dear @Champ_Pal

Time travel is proven to be possible and already proven to be possible by science.

Prove it! What is your evidence that it is "not possible at all"?

Pay close attention to the colored word and provide scientific evidence. Please don't discuss God or religion or XYZ from purely scientific point of view prove that it is "not possible at all".

You can that not proven yet or not possible using today's constraints etc but you cannot say that "not possible at all".

Thanks

Sure one can time travel as per science. I do not and never denied that. Stop strawmanning my arguments.

The issue is how it was achieved without any supernatural power behind it. You don’t explain that. You conveniently skip the questions I have been repeatedly asking.

Anyways. I don’t expect an answer from you. If you had, you would have already posted it by now.

 

[LordJames]

Sure one can time travel as per science. I do not and never denied that. Stop strawmanning my arguments.

The issue is how it was achieved without any supernatural power behind it. You don’t explain that. You conveniently skip the questions I have been repeatedly asking.

Anyways. I don’t expect an answer from you. If you had, you would have already posted it by now.

Dear @Champ_Pal

Repeating again.

Go with the flow in a structured and methodical manner. When there is time for an objection then object.

We are at a theoretical stage and it has taken a week to get here to set the scene for pure physics.

Thanks for your time, let me now proceed with next stages.

 

[LordJames]

Dear @Champ_Pal,

I appreciate your time and patience on the fruitful discussion so far.

Prologue:

I have set out the theoretical possibility of being in a different dimension of time and you have graciously accepted that it is theoretically possible.​

The Journeys:

The Muslims always regard this incident as two separate journeys and have distinct terms for these:

1. Al-Isra: Prophet Muhammad (Peace be upon Him) traveled from Makkah (Saudi Arabia) to Jerusalem and then...
2. Miraj: Prophet Muhammad (Peace be upon Him) traveled from Jerusalem to Heavens

In simpler terms, the first journey within Earth and second is not.

Muslims define and explain them differently because they are two different journeys.

Please let me know if you have any objections so far and I will continue.

Thanks

 

[LordJames]

Dear @Champ_Pal,

I appreciate your time and patience on the fruitful discussion so far.

Prologue:

I have set out the theoretical possibility of being in a different dimension of time and you have graciously accepted that it is theoretically possible.​

The Journeys:

The Muslims always regard this incident as two separate journeys and have distinct terms for these:

1. Al-Isra: Prophet Muhammad (Peace be upon Him) traveled from Makkah (Saudi Arabia) to Jerusalem and then...
2. Miraj: Prophet Muhammad (Peace be upon Him) traveled from Jerusalem to Heavens

In simpler terms, the first journey within Earth and second is not.

Muslims define and explain them differently because they are two different journeys.

Please let me know if you have any objections so far and I will continue.

Thanks

Dear @Champ_Pal

The earthly journey which was undertaken by Prophet Muhammad (Peace be upon Him) was on an animal called "Buraq"

1. Buraq is an Animal which traveled at tremendous speeds on earthly journeys
2. The Buraq had no wings
3. Buraq did not go into space

The ancient Persians/Turks drew all sorts of pictures of Buraq but it is all fantasy and nothing to do with actual reality which is in the narrations.

 

[Champ_Pal]

Dear @Champ_Pal

The earthly journey which was undertaken by Prophet Muhammad (Peace be upon Him) was on an animal called "Buraq"

1. Buraq is an Animal which traveled at tremendous speeds on earthly journeys
2. The Buraq had no wings
3. Buraq did not go into space

The ancient Persians/Turks drew all sorts of pictures of Buraq but it is all fantasy and nothing to do with actual reality which is in the narrations.

Theoritical possibility does not mean it can be achieved by an illiterate Bedioun man from 7th century Arabia. You still do not seem to grasp the fact that traveling through alternate time dimensions, traveling at speed of light and bending of space-time curvature are not possible for humans. There should be involvement of some supernatural power.
Until you prove how it was achieved physically, there is no point in discussing this any further. What kind of instruments were used to bend space-time curvature, what kind of fuel was used to achieve lightspeed etc must be explained scientifically. Then only it becomes part of accepted travel in the eyes of science.

Whatever Buraq is. Whether it has wings or it has cobra fangs, it is immaterial. No such animal exists or existed unless the Supernatural power(God) just created it for that one purpose and vanished it out of existence.

If we simply go by the specululative math equations, then Hanuman's space jump, Jesus doing miracles, Thor's epic, Gilgamesh's story etc all should be accepted too.

 

[LordJames]

Theoritical possibility does not mean it can be achieved by an illiterate Bedioun man from 7th century Arabia. You still do not seem to grasp the fact that traveling through alternate time dimensions, traveling at speed of light and bending of space-time curvature are not possible for humans. There should be involvement of some supernatural power.
Until you prove how it was achieved physically, there is no point in discussing this any further. What kind of instruments were used to bend space-time curvature, what kind of fuel was used to achieve lightspeed etc must be explained scientifically. Then only it becomes part of accepted travel in the eyes of science.

Whatever Buraq is. Whether it has wings or it has cobra fangs, it is immaterial. No such animal exists or existed unless the Supernatural power(God) just created it for that one purpose and vanished it out of existence.

If we simply go by the specululative math equations, then Hanuman's space jump, Jesus doing miracles, Thor's epic, Gilgamesh's story etc all should be accepted too.

Dear @Champ_Pal

Read the red text

Beginning:

Characters & Setting: Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) and his wife Aisha (may God be pleased with her) in a bedroom in Madinah (Saudi Arabia)

Two Journeys:​

1. From Madinah (Saudi Arabia) to Jerusalem (about 1150 km).​
2. From Jerusalem to beyond the 7 heavens (distance unknown).​

Timing: This all happened during the night, but almost no time seemed to pass. His wife did not notice, and there were no witnesses.

Explanation Given: Scientifically, the Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) entered another time dimension where time flowed differently and this is Speculative Physics. . His wife stayed in normal time, unaware of the journey, while he had a completely different experience.

To make you understand it simply, I have provided an example with @KingKhanWC. However not only there is time dimension but also Time Dilation.

Claim: This shows the journey is scientifically possible.

Request: Please without trolling agree or refute this from science before we move on to details like distance and mode of travel. We will not move forward until agree or refute me thus far using science.

Remember: We have not even begun to talk about the whole issue yet, just beginning.

Once Again: We will continue the discussion and get to your "Donkey" and "Space Suit" etc.

Ask? If you do not understand, ask questions​

Never said that I will prove anything to you! Because no matter what I say you will not believe and it is not my aim or job to make you believe in something!

and then, I am not here to speculate some something which isn't true. Muslims don't believe that Buraq had wings or flew into space!

At this stage all that is needed an acknowledgment from you "I didn't know that..."

And we can carry on.

 

[RexRex]

If we simply go by the specululative math equations, then Hanuman's space jump, Jesus doing miracles, Thor's epic, Gilgamesh's story etc all should be accepted too.

Is this true, @LordJames ? Do groovy physics/math theorems only apply to islamic miracles ?

 

[Champ_Pal]

Dear @Champ_Pal

Read the red text




Never said that I will prove anything to you! Because no matter what I say you will not believe and it is not my aim or job to make you believe in something!

and then, I am not here to speculate some something which isn't true. Muslims don't believe that Buraq had wings or flew into space!

At this stage all that is needed an acknowledgment from you "I didn't know that..."

And we can carry on.

You are not going to convert me by proving Islamic miracles. Physical proof has a lot more to it than speculative math equations.

There is nothing for me to acknowledge. I do not deny the existence of alternate time dimensions, relaity and lightspeed. The issue is they are not physically possible even today and you are saying a 7th century Arab man did it with the help of science.

Cool story bro.

 

[LordJames]

Is this true, @LordJames ? Do groovy physics/math theorems only apply to islamic miracles ?

Absolutely No, they don't. Laws of physics apply to the physical universe as a whole.

There is distinct philosophical differences between how the miracles associated with Prophet Muhammad (Peace be upon Him) are narrated, recorded and authenticated versus others religions. Where the miraculous stories do not contradict our knowledge in any religion they are accepted and nothing to do with religion.

For example consider something which @Champ_Pal said

How can a Donkey fly and how can any human breathe in outer space.

Muslims neither narrate nor believe any such thing!

You are not going to convert me by proving Islamic miracles. Physical proof has a lot more to it than speculative math equations.

There is nothing for me to acknowledge. I do not deny the existence of alternate time dimensions, relaity and lightspeed. The issue is they are not physically possible even today and you are saying a 7th century Arab man did it with the help of science.

Cool story bro.

Dear @Champ_Pal

1. Please look at the dictionary definitions of the two terms which you have linked together in the same sentence and extrapolate.
2. The discussion here is about possibility and it has been repeated again and again and again. And not "possibility" because I said so but possibility based on knowledge

Thanks

 

[Champ_Pal]

Absolutely No, they don't. Laws of physics apply to the physical universe as a whole.

There is distinct philosophical differences between how the miracles associated with Prophet Muhammad (Peace be upon Him) are narrated, recorded and authenticated versus others religions. Where the miraculous stories do not contradict our knowledge in any religion they are accepted and nothing to do with religion.

For example consider something which @Champ_Pal said

How can a Donkey fly and how can any human breathe in outer space.

Muslims neither narrate nor believe any such thing!



Dear @Champ_Pal

1. Please look at the dictionary definitions of the two terms which you have linked together in the same sentence and extrapolate.
2. The discussion here is about possibility and it has been repeated again and again and again. And not "possibility" because I said so but possibility based on knowledge

Thanks

Are you going to just beat around the bush or actually catch the serpent hiding inside those bushes?

Tell me what instruments did Prophet PBUH used to
1) Access alternate time dimensions
2) Achieve lightspeed.
3) Bend space-time curvature.

Don't ignore this. If we know exactly the process, we can all accept the journey indeed has scientific basis. If it is indeed science based, then there is no involvement of God and it is no miracle.

 

[LordJames]

Are you going to just beat around the bush or actually catch the serpent hiding inside those bushes?

Tell me what instruments did Prophet PBUH used to
1) Access alternate time dimensions
2) Achieve lightspeed.
3) Bend space-time curvature.

Don't ignore this. If we know exactly the process, we can all accept the journey indeed has scientific basis. If it is indeed science based, then there is no involvement of God and it is no miracle.

Dear @Champ_Pal

We are done if you agree with the underlined words.

And secondly, Prophet Muhammad (Peace be upon Him) didn't initiate anything it happened to him, you didn't answer this.

Dear @Champ_Pal

Why do you keep bringing God or Braq or divine intervention into a scientific discussions, repeatedly? Have I discussed or brought it, yet? Bring it when it is discussed.

2 1/2 days and you have presented singular time dimension, Time Dilation, Grandfather paradox and all sorts of issues when I have presented solid theoretical physics.

From the beginning and repeatedly I have argued about possibility and if you don't deny it, lets move on to next stages of discussion.

We are not there, yet.

1. Does a person have to have knowledge of something in order to use it?

Please prove it and refute my crude driving example. Do all the drivers aware of how an engine or transmission works?

Thanks

You can't interject your own thoughts into the story and then ask for a proof of your interjections.

Prophet Muhammad (Peace be upon Him) not only didn't initiate anything but he was unlettered.

 

[Champ_Pal]

@LordJames, There is a story in Indian puranas. The story of King Kukudmi of Kushasthali and his daughter Revati who travel to Brahma Loka(Abode of Lord Brahma) and come back to earth.

When they came back to earth many millennia has passed on earth and his kingdom did not existed anymore. His kingdom was now Dwaraka and Lord Krishna is now the ruler of it.

So should we consider that their travel to BrahmaLoka(heavens) and coming back to earth to see millennia has passed(Time Dilation) as a scientific evidence?

Where are we going to stop with these things?

 

[Champ_Pal]

Dear @Champ_Pal

We are done if you agree with the underlined words.

Expected.

And secondly, Prophet Muhammad (Peace be upon Him) didn't initiate anything it happened to him, you didn't answer this.

So you mean to say Prophet PBUH accidentally found the alternate time dimensions and coincidentally traveled at speed of light and bent the space-time curvature?

You can't interject your own thoughts into the story and then ask for a proof of your interjections.

What you are saying is, I need to stop using my brain and not question anything.

Prophet Muhammad (Peace be upon Him) not only didn't initiate anything but he was unlettered.

As a believer you should know that miracles can happen with God's intervention. Which is my entire argument. Prophet PBUH needed God's help in achieving his night journey. It is not scientific as you have been claiming.

 

[LordJames]

@LordJames, There is a story in Indian puranas. The story of King Kukudmi of Kushasthali and his daughter Revati who travel to Brahma Loka(Abode of Lord Brahma) and come back to earth.

When they came back to earth many millennia has passed on earth and his kingdom did not existed anymore. His kingdom was now Dwaraka and Lord Krishna is now the ruler of it.

So should we consider that their travel to BrahmaLoka(heavens) and coming back to earth to see millennia has passed(Time Dilation) as a scientific evidence?

Where are we going to stop with these things?

@Champ_Pal

I really appreciate you not mocking and engaging in a serious discussion.

As discussed, travel across dimensions is possible. Now, when someone narrates an incident we will look at the issue using its authenticity, how its recorded, how its transmitted and other details.

By all means, tear apart all the narrations which are about Prophet Muhammad (Peace be upon Him) and then tear apart what you have in Hinduism.

Use the same set of standards with everything including your belief in "No God and No Creator"

Expected.

So you mean to say Prophet PBUH accidentally found the alternate time dimensions and coincidentally traveled at speed of light and bent the space-time curvature?

What you are saying is, I need to stop using my brain and not question anything.

As a believer you should know that miracles can happen with God's intervention. Which is my entire argument. Prophet PBUH needed God's help in achieving his night journey. It is not scientific as you have been claiming.

Absolutely not!

Saying the exact opposite, use your brain, use your faculties and use your knowledge and above all use the same standards to judge all religions and belief systems including Atheism.

The Journey of Prophet Muhammad (Peace be upon Him) is believed by Muslims based on the concept of ONE GOD.

Without that belief, it is scientifically "possible" which you and others are accepting.

Belief cannot be without scrutiny!

Muslims don't start their belief at miracles, they start their belief at ONE GOD!

Read and understand exactly what I am saying instead of what your mind is saying and then by all means, disagree.

 

[Champ_Pal]

@Champ_Pal

I really appreciate you not mocking and engaging in a serious discussion.

As discussed, travel across dimensions is possible. Now, when someone narrates an incident we will look at the issue using its authenticity, how its recorded, how its transmitted and other details.

By all means, tear apart all the narrations which are about Prophet Muhammad (Peace be upon Him) and then tear apart what you have in Hinduism.

Use the same set of standards with everything including your belief in "No God and No Creator"


Absolutely not!

Saying the exact opposite, use your brain, use your faculties and use your knowledge and above all use the same standards to judge all religions and belief systems including Atheism.

The Journey of Prophet Muhammad (Peace be upon Him) is believed by Muslims based on the concept of ONE GOD.

Without that belief, it is scientifically "possible" which you and others are accepting.

Belief cannot be without scrutiny!

Muslims don't start their belief at miracles, they start their belief at ONE GOD!

Read and understand exactly what I am saying instead of what your mind is saying and then by all means, disagree.

Just because something is possible through speculative math equations does not mean someone already achieved it centuries or millennia ago.

There is nothing for me to tare apart about any of these miracles in various religions. Every religion has their fair share of miracles which could seem plausible by speculative math equations. That does not make them scientifically accurate. Physically doing something is vastly different to writing an equation on a blackboard.

You have to explain how it was achieved. Otherwise, the miracles will only stay on the blackboard or in a book. It will not be scientifically accepted.

 

[LordJames]

Just because something is possible through speculative math equations does not mean someone already achieved it centuries or millennia ago.

There is nothing for me to tare apart about any of these miracles in various religions. Every religion has their fair share of miracles which could seem plausible by speculative math equations. That does not make them scientifically accurate. Physically doing something is vastly different to writing an equation on a blackboard.

You have to explain how it was achieved. Otherwise, the miracles will only stay on the blackboard or in a book. It will not be scientifically accepted.

Dear @Champ_Pal

There is everything to tear apart.

1. First of all what is being said and how and what are the sources, how is it transmitted and archived for transmission etc
2. Secondly, do the details make sense or are they contradictory
3. Thirdly, do the details stack upto our knowledge.

The same miracle can be described in different religions and tested with 1, 2 & 3.

There are dozens of things in the world which I cannot prove e.g. matter-antimatter interaction so nothing to do with religion. As a scientist, I put a theory to test and if science proves that it is not possible conclusively then I drop it.

Thanks

 

[Champ_Pal]

Dear @Champ_Pal

There is everything to tear apart.

1. First of all what is being said and how and what are the sources, how is it transmitted and archived for transmission etc
2. Secondly, do the details make sense or are they contradictory
3. Thirdly, do the details stack upto our knowledge.

The same miracle can be described in different religions and tested with 1, 2 & 3.

There are dozens of things in the world which I cannot prove e.g. matter-antimatter interaction so nothing to do with religion. As a scientist, I put a theory to test and if science proves that it is not possible conclusively then I drop it.

Thanks

How a miracle is transmitted has no impact on whether it is scientifically explained in physical terms. One has to provide the technology that was used to achieve the miracle. If the demonstration is good, then it will be accepted. The whole world will become believers.

How does the details of Miraj make sense? That is something you need to explain. Not the skeptic.

The details should make sense by explaining each step.

Again, you simply do not get it. Just because anti-matter exists, does not mean one has access to it in 2025.

It is on you to prove with evidence. Not the skeptic.

 

[LordJames]

How a miracle is transmitted has no impact on whether it is scientifically explained in physical terms. One has to provide the technology that was used to achieve the miracle. If the demonstration is good, then it will be accepted. The whole world will become believers.

How does the details of Miraj make sense? That is something you need to explain. Not the skeptic.

The details should make sense by explaining each step.

Again, you simply do not get it. Just because anti-matter exists, does not mean one has access to it in 2025.

It is on you to prove with evidence. Not the skeptic.

Dear @Champ_Pal

1. The transmission of an event has to be established, did this happen or is it a legend?
2. Then the details need to be scrutinized, do the detail stand upto the set of standards or not?

There is nothing to prove if the skeptic believes it to be "possible".

Thanks

 

[LordJames]

Dear @The Bald Eagle & @Cricket Warrior

@Champ_Pal has stated that he is an Atheist and does not believe in "God or Creator". He has questioned the physical Journey of Prophet Muhammad ﷺ with his Physical body in 1 night.​

1. Al-Isra: Prophet Muhammad (Peace be upon Him) traveled from Madina (Saudi Arabia) to Jerusalem and then...​
2. Miraj: Prophet Muhammad (Peace be upon Him) traveled from Jerusalem to Heavens​

All in a single night over 1400+ years ago.

Can you or any other Moderator commit to deleting any posts with EmoJi, Trolling, insult, disrespect and ban whoever (Me or Him) who doesn't engage Academically and runs away from the argument.

I will engage with @Champ_Pal until the issue is responded to and then as per the deal I will ask a question. I will go first and respond to all his objections, arguments and counter arguments.

I will be hitting the report button wherever I see unnecessary posts, Emoji, Sarcasm, Disrespect and I will be providing evidence and also challenging and asking for evidence.

Thanks and let me know if you can help with this and confirm before we begin.​

October 24, 2024: Why "Speculative/Theoretical Physics"?

Dear @Champ_Pal

This was discussed in the U.S. House on September 9, 2025.

The reason so many phenomena have to be approached through speculative or theoretical physics rather than empirical physics is simple: there are countless things in our world that we cannot yet explain, so we are forced to theorize.

For example, during the hearing, this official military video was presented:

As of 2025, we have no known technology that can:​

• Power or maneuver an object in this manner​
• Withstand a direct strike from a Hellfire missile, shatter into pieces, and yet…​
• Continue traveling undisturbed on the same trajectory​

There is no empirical explanation for what this video shows—no tested theories of physics that can account for the momentum, the impact, or the aftermath.

The events of Al-Isra and Miraj happened to Prophet Muhammad (Peace be upon Him), he was able to answer questions about the "far away lands" which he traveled to on the night of the travel and describe events in the desert the exact timing and then these are authentically narrated not by a eyewitness and then transmitted with a rigorous chain of transmission so we have no choice but to look at theoretical physics.

There is a vast difference between how narrations are authenticated, scrutinized, and transmitted in Islam compared to Hinduism—or any other religion, for that matter. I don’t expect you to acknowledge this as a Hindu or an Atheist, since that is your right, but we can certainly examine and discuss it through the lens of science.
​

God's all powerful ness or not needs to be argued in the feamework of logic, not science. Science describes obsevable akd quantifiable phenomenon, God is neither of them accordong to most beliefs. Pure abstract logic doesn't have that shortcoming.

Dear @anikrc1

As I mentioned, I could have easily taken a logical or philosophical approach to frame my argument, but instead I deliberately chose a scientific path. Despite weeks of debate, no one has been able to disprove the scientific case for its possibility.

I expect the same approach from @Champ_Pal regarding Atheism—defending his belief through science. I have all the time in the world to answer every question patiently and calmly, and then, as per our agreement, it will be my turn to ask @Champ_Pal.
​

He—and anyone else—is welcome to use AI or any other tool during these discussions. Unlike @RizwanT20Champ , @Mamoon , and @Major , I have no objection to AI, because:

• AI cannot build a strong argument where none exists.
• AI cannot refute an argument when clear evidence is present.

Thanks everyone for being patient and focused.

​