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How bad really was Yasir Shah in the Test series against Australia?

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That guy sure is copping a lot of criticism.True enough he looked off colour in the first innings of the first test but did come back with 4 wickets in the next innings.In the second match 1 wicket first innings and 3 in the second.

In between he did bowl a fair bit of rubbish but by the second test,to me atleast,he seemed to have gotten back his flight and drift and spin.Did bowl quite a few decent deliveries.
And the UAE pitches did appear to be a bit less helpful to spinners by the 4th day.
 
Apart from 1 or at max 2 sessions he was extremely bad.

But these things happen with everyone. Hope he does well against NZ.
 
I like Yasir and he bowled ok for someone who did not have game time behind him. We can't expect someone to perform 💯 percent after coming back from injury.
 
It was reported that Yasir averaged over 70 against Australia's top six which is his highest bowling average against top six batting since his horrid tour of Australia in 2016.

Yasir never relied on prodigious turn or variety, but wicket-to-wicket accuracy picking up LBWs and bowleds. Australia got in trouble playing across the line shots in 2014 but this time they seemed to have done their homework against him.

Whether Yasir can remain the leader of the spin attack depends on his performance against NZ. To be fair, he hasn't had much overs with the red ball under his belt in the last year due to injuries so maybe it'll take time regaining match sharpness. It's a shame Mushtaq Ahmed isn't around anymore as I felt he learned a lot from Mushy.
 
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[MENTION=131701]Mamoon[/MENTION] had rightly called out Yasir when most people were blinded by his misleading performances.

He's essentially a 4th innings specialist, but that too ONLY on dust bowls, severely deteriorated pitches with extreme rough patches.


He's nothing without those rough patches or broken pitches.
 
He was awful all way through, showed no patiences, didnt bowl to any plans ir try and set batsmen up. Needed to stick to basics, he turned up thinking he would be gift wrapped wickets.
 
He's a guy who comes into his own after bowling long spells. By 2nd Test, he had started to look threatening again. He is still our best spinner in Tests and will remain so unless something drastic happens.
 
He's a guy who comes into his own after bowling long spells. By 2nd Test, he had started to look threatening again. He is still our best spinner in Tests and will remain so unless something drastic happens.

Only because pitch was generating abnormal bounce. Lyon looked more threatening- that says a lot.
 
Shah was below his best during this series but this just goes to show that the UAE is not the spinners' paradise that it is made out to be. You have to be a quality spinner to do well here on a consistent basis unlike some other countries where a part-timer like Dean Elgar starts looking like a Warne-Murali hybrid.
 
I like Yasir as a bowler but he gets impatient and that's an issue at times.

What then happens is that his length suffers and he starts bowling at least one poor delivery per over.
 
[MENTION=131701]Mamoon[/MENTION] had rightly called out Yasir when most people were blinded by his misleading performances.

He's essentially a 4th innings specialist, but that too ONLY on dust bowls, severely deteriorated pitches with extreme rough patches.


He's nothing without those rough patches or broken pitches.

Done well to mislead us for 173 wickets including many in England. He sure is an imposter.
 
Yasir was not bowling on mindfields which you find in Sri Lanka, India or Bangladesh. These UAE wickets offer slow turn, low bounce and zero pace which makes it easier for the batsman to defend.

But he has to get fitter, lose some weight and also find out if there is something wrong with his action because he is no longer spinning his leg break as prodigously compared to his first 2 years in international cricket. He also needs to develop a flipper and a googly because batsman are now getting used to him and treating his straight accurate bowling as if he is a medium pacer.
 
I like Yasir as a bowler but he gets impatient and that's an issue at times.

What then happens is that his length suffers and he starts bowling at least one poor delivery per over.


Have seen Yasir bowl in tandum with Shadab and trust me the guy has much more control, patience over his bowling compared to Shadab.

But the issue is that Misbah was a very good on field captain to spinners in the UAE, would constantly guide them and push them to stick to a plan, i don't think Yasir is getting the same confidence from Sarfaraz.
 
Have seen Yasir bowl in tandum with Shadab and trust me the guy has much more control, patience over his bowling compared to Shadab.

But the issue is that Misbah was a very good on field captain to spinners in the UAE, would constantly guide them and push them to stick to a plan, i don't think Yasir is getting the same confidence from Sarfaraz.

hmm interestingo.But as for his wickets colomn its not like that of a bowler who is absolutely finished.
 
Have seen Yasir bowl in tandum with Shadab and trust me the guy has much more control, patience over his bowling compared to Shadab.

But the issue is that Misbah was a very good on field captain to spinners in the UAE, would constantly guide them and push them to stick to a plan, i don't think Yasir is getting the same confidence from Sarfaraz.

Sarfraz is to busy setting poor fields for his bowlers and berating fielders to have time to encourage or use his bowlers well :facepalm:
 
[MENTION=131701]Mamoon[/MENTION] had rightly called out Yasir when most people were blinded by his misleading performances.

He's essentially a 4th innings specialist, but that too ONLY on dust bowls, severely deteriorated pitches with extreme rough patches.


He's nothing without those rough patches or broken pitches.

Yes [MENTION=131701]Mamoon[/MENTION] did point that out but he also said that Ashwin is an “ATG Bradman of bowling” and more effective than Yasir outside Asia which is clearly not true...
 
[MENTION=131701]Mamoon[/MENTION] had rightly called out Yasir when most people were blinded by his misleading performances.

He's essentially a 4th innings specialist, but that too ONLY on dust bowls, severely deteriorated pitches with extreme rough patches.


He's nothing without those rough patches or broken pitches.


As they say, even a stopped clock tells the time twice.

How are actual results 'misleading'? What is more real than reality?

If someone takes 100 and 150 wickets faster than any other bowler in the world in 100 years, does it not suggest that this bowler is not, as Mamoon once maintained, a mediocre bowler?

If this bowler stops taking wickets at such breakneck speed, the only convincing explanation is that he has gotten worse. Not that he was never any good.
 
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Only because pitch was generating abnormal bounce. Lyon looked more threatening- that says a lot.

What do you mean?

Nathan Lyon has 318 Test wickets. He's Australia greatest ever off spinner
 
What do you mean?

Nathan Lyon has 318 Test wickets. He's Australia greatest ever off spinner

He's actually one of Australia's greatest bowlers ever. To survive as an off spinner in Oz conditions is hard enough, but to thrive is a rare achievement. Then he has learnt to bowl and take wickets in England, in Asia, in Oz. I don't think there is single a spinner in world cricket at the moment who can say they have done the same. In fact I don't think we've seen a spinner like that for a decade or more at least, off the top of my head. Is there one?

I guess he is still under rated. He's become a world class bowler and done things only great spinners manage.
 
Yes [MENTION=131701]Mamoon[/MENTION] did point that out but he also said that Ashwin is an “ATG Bradman of bowling” and more effective than Yasir outside Asia which is clearly not true...

Of course, not everything he says is true and Ashwin + BKumar are over hyped by him


As they say, even a stopped clock tells the time twice.

How are actual results 'misleading'? What is more real than reality?

If someone takes 100 and 150 wickets faster than any other bowler in the world in 100 years, does it not suggest that this bowler is not, as Mamoon once maintained, a mediocre bowler?

If this bowler stops taking wickets at such breakneck speed, the only convincing explanation is that he has gotten worse. Not that he was never any good.

They're misleading in the sense that on most occasions when he's not given a broken or 4th innings pitch, 90% of the time he'll be toothless.

I like Yasir's action and energy, who doesn't like a rhythmic leggie action? But, his effectiveness is questionable.

Still, an important part of the team in Asia/UAE.
 
What do you mean?

Nathan Lyon has 318 Test wickets. He's Australia greatest ever off spinner

Lyon is very good, no doubt. But theoretically Yasir should be doing better than him in the UAE. Much more familiar with the conditions.

Lyon is excellent no doubt, solely carrying their spin lineup, that too in Aus. Yasir is declining.
 
Of course, not everything he says is true and Ashwin + BKumar are over hyped by him




They're misleading in the sense that on most occasions when he's not given a broken or 4th innings pitch, 90% of the time he'll be toothless.

I like Yasir's action and energy, who doesn't like a rhythmic leggie action? But, his effectiveness is questionable.

Still, an important part of the team in Asia/UAE.

How can his effectiveness be questionable if he's not only effective, but the second most effective bowler ever in the world? How can it be claimed that he is only good for 4th innings, when he regularly took wickets in the first innings too? What is so difficult to understand about the concept of declining form? He was amazing for some time. And therefore reached the no 1 spot in the ICC rankings. But his form is declining and he may no longer be so amazing. Instead of this very simple story based on evidence, you concoct a quasi theological fantasy structured around the artificial notion of a player's innate and timeless ability. As if players, no less than people, never change, never grow older, never loose speed, skill etc. The problem, quite simply, is with the tense of your analysis.
 
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From 2014-2017, Yasir took more wickets than he deserved because of the incompetence of his bowling partners.

It is not hard for a wicket-taking spinners to run through team if they are bowling in tandem with the likes of Zulfiqar, Shadab, Nawaz, Rabat, Wahab, Amir etc.

His wicket-taking records flatter him. The lack of wicket-taking bowlers in Pakistan made him look better than he was. He bowled a lot more overs than other bowlers and eventually ended up taking wickets while others could not.

He is not a top class spinner but he can very effective in the right conditions and take wickets in quick succession. However, with the emergence of Abbas, he finally has competition for taking wickets and he is not faring very well so far.

He could not even match Bilal when he had his moment in the sun in the first innings of the Dubai Test, where he completely outclassed this record breaker.

I think it is a bit convenient to assert that he has started to decline as soon as Pakistan have found other wicket-taking option(s).

Playing for the Pakistan Test team from 2014-16 was a dream scenario for any spinner who can take wickets. If the likes of Ashwin, Jadeja, Herath, Lyon, Shakib etc. were part of that rubbish bowling attack as the only wicket-taking bowler, they too would have made records.

Yasir did not achieve anything extraordinary - it was more of a deaf king among blind men type situation. Now there is another king in the house, and Yasir has gone blind.
 
From 2014-2017, Yasir took more wickets than he deserved because of the incompetence of his bowling partners.

It is not hard for a wicket-taking spinners to run through team if they are bowling in tandem with the likes of Zulfiqar, Shadab, Nawaz, Rabat, Wahab, Amir etc.

His wicket-taking records flatter him. The lack of wicket-taking bowlers in Pakistan made him look better than he was. He bowled a lot more overs than other bowlers and eventually ended up taking wickets while others could not.

He is not a top class spinner but he can very effective in the right conditions and take wickets in quick succession. However, with the emergence of Abbas, he finally has competition for taking wickets and he is not faring very well so far.

He could not even match Bilal when he had his moment in the sun in the first innings of the Dubai Test, where he completely outclassed this record breaker.

I think it is a bit convenient to assert that he has started to decline as soon as Pakistan have found other wicket-taking option(s).

Playing for the Pakistan Test team from 2014-16 was a dream scenario for any spinner who can take wickets. If the likes of Ashwin, Jadeja, Herath, Lyon, Shakib etc. were part of that rubbish bowling attack as the only wicket-taking bowler, they too would have made records.

Yasir did not achieve anything extraordinary - it was more of a deaf king among blind men type situation. Now there is another king in the house, and Yasir has gone blind.

To take as many wickets as Yasir did, requires skill and execution. You can undermine his wickets as much as you want, but the thing is, he is a pretty good spinner and unquestionably our best in Tests.
Playing Tests after a year can be difficult, hopefully he will start taking heaps of wickets in the upcoming series. To say he will struggle to pick up wickets because of presence of Abbas, it's not a one man job, we Pakistanis need to be happy whoever takes wickets and wins us the match.

Graeme Swann didn't take many wickets in the Ashes 2010-11, yet he rated his spell in the second Test as his best, even though he didn't get a fivefer or sth. It's about helping your team win the match. If Yasir does that, I am happy with him.

Even with that, he remains our best red ball spinner, our stocks may be the lowest they have ever been, but still surely is serviceable to the team.
 
Wasn't at his best but wasn't horrible either. The Australian's obviously prepared a lot for him and the slow turn, slow pace and low bounce nature of the UAE pitches didn't help. Yasir too needs to go back to the drawing board, get fitter, get his leg spinner to turn big again and most importantly needs to develop a flipper and googly.
 
Yasir was coming back after a year or so, still did well to pick up 8 wickets in the series ... With Abbas fast becoming a wicket taking machine, Yasir can take his time to get back into test match bowling fitness.

He's led the attack admirably since Ajmal's untimely end and no amount of hot takes will disprove facts that he's been our best bowler in the last 4 years in tests by a country mile. Lets see how he progresses against NZ and then against SA in December.
 
From 2014-2017, Yasir took more wickets than he deserved because of the incompetence of his bowling partners.

It is not hard for a wicket-taking spinners to run through team if they are bowling in tandem with the likes of Zulfiqar, Shadab, Nawaz, Rabat, Wahab, Amir etc.

His wicket-taking records flatter him. The lack of wicket-taking bowlers in Pakistan made him look better than he was. He bowled a lot more overs than other bowlers and eventually ended up taking wickets while others could not.

He is not a top class spinner but he can very effective in the right conditions and take wickets in quick succession. However, with the emergence of Abbas, he finally has competition for taking wickets and he is not faring very well so far.

He could not even match Bilal when he had his moment in the sun in the first innings of the Dubai Test, where he completely outclassed this record breaker.

I think it is a bit convenient to assert that he has started to decline as soon as Pakistan have found other wicket-taking option(s).

Playing for the Pakistan Test team from 2014-16 was a dream scenario for any spinner who can take wickets. If the likes of Ashwin, Jadeja, Herath, Lyon, Shakib etc. were part of that rubbish bowling attack as the only wicket-taking bowler, they too would have made records.

Yasir did not achieve anything extraordinary - it was more of a deaf king among blind men type situation. Now there is another king in the house, and Yasir has gone blind.

You realize being the only real threat in the bowling attack makes it much more difficult to take wickets because opposition can basically play you out while they attack other bowlers right? Ajmal dealt with the same issue in ODIs from 2009-2014 yet was top bowler in the format.

Enough with the hot takes.
 
Yasir Shah has declined there is no doubt about that. May be it is a fitness issue but if he does not improve then there will be questions raised. Good thing though for Yasir is that Pakistan does not have a replacement sitting in the pipeline.

Bilal Asif isnt really the answer I am afraid.
 
Lyon isn't a nobody in international cricket. He has over 300 Test wickets and 10fers in Asia.

That is correct. And Lyon bowled way better than Yasir, that too in the UAE.

Overall, Lyon seems to be ahead or going ahead.


...

Even with that, he remains our best red ball spinner, our stocks may be the lowest they have ever been, but still surely is serviceable to the team.

Not really.

He was our best hope in the UAE only. I hope he can get some wickets in the NZ series and prove that Aus series was just a temp dip in form.
 
I like Yasir as a bowler but he gets impatient and that's an issue at times.

What then happens is that his length suffers and he starts bowling at least one poor delivery per over.

I have started threads on this but my worry is his lack of leg spin. The straight one only works if the leg spinner spins, and the bits i saw, he was barely turning the ball. Going forward, this is going to be a real problem.
 
Wasn't at his best but wasn't horrible either. The Australian's obviously prepared a lot for him and the slow turn, slow pace and low bounce nature of the UAE pitches didn't help. Yasir too needs to go back to the drawing board, get fitter, get his leg spinner to turn big again and most importantly needs to develop a flipper and googly.

For a leg spinner this is the most important thing. I have said before, i think his fingers are too far apart to impart the level side spin needed.
 
Is England in UAE?

As [MENTION=132916]Junaids[/MENTION] pointed out:

"19 wickets at 40.73 in England."

Yasir Shah is an absolutely woeful bowler outside Asia.

And a very very average bowler in Asia too, for the first innings, or when the pitch is not a broken minefield.
 
I think he did okay but Yasir always has been a bowler who bowls lots of overs to get his wickets. He was steady in this series and did not look threatening during lots of his spells. I felt that the Aussies were happy playing him rather than playing Mohammad Abbas.
 
The problem is simple. I'm a former rubbish leg-spinner, and this is one area of cricket that I understand!

Yasir Shah is a very accurate leg-spinner, whose main skill is containment, rather than being an attacking leg-spinner like Abdul Qadir or Mushtaq Ahmed.

In the first three innings of a Test outside Asia he is no weapon at all, he is a defensive bowler to tie up the scoring rate from one end while quick bowlers take wickets.

Misbah tried to use him with horrible leg-side fields in England, Australia and New Zealand and he ended up in 9 Tests taking 27 wickets at an average of 55.81

In the final innings on a deteriorating surface outside Asia he can become a more attacking weapon, as he was at Lords and The Oval in 2016. But that is true of most spinners - even Moeen Ali!

In Asia, quick bowlers are of limited use in the first three innings, and Yasir's accuracy on dry, dusty wickets makes him a worthwhile weapon.

Interestingly, Shane Warne was also primarily a containing bowler in the first three innings outside Asia like Yasir Shah is. But the difference was that his stock ball - the ripping leg-spinner - turned far more than Yasir Shah's deliveries do, so he was harder to defend against outside Asia.

So what does this mean for Yasir Shah?

In Asia, he is an automatic selection and will always take 4 or more wickets per match.

The problem is outside Asia.

Outside Asia, if Pakistan lose the toss they will always end up batting fourth. There is literally no point playing Yasir Shah if you lose the toss in Australia, England, New Zealand or South Africa because he effectively becomes a Specialist Batsman. On Day 1 and Day 3 or 4 he is a passenger as a bowler.

Even if Pakistan wins the toss outside Asia, and bats, there is still a minimal argument for selecting Yasir Shah. He will barely bowl in the First Innings on Day 2, and on Day 4 or 5 when Pakistan defends its total in the Final Innings he may do well, but so too would Shadab Khan on a deteriorating surface.

Imagine a Test on a bouncy track at Johannesburg, with Pakistan losing the toss and bowling first. Here is how I would expect Yasir Shah to fare in comparison with Shadab Khan.

INNINGS 1 - South Africa batting on a bouncy greenish track. SA 300 all out
Yasir Shah would bowl 25-8-75-1
Shadab Khan would bowl 12-3-30-0


INNINGS 2 - Pakistan fall to 50-3 in the first 20 overs, then stabilize as the Kookaburra ball loses its seam.
Shadab Khan comes in at Number 7 with Pakistan 150-5 after 45 overs, scores 30 and is dismissed at 220-7. Pakistan go on to be 290 all out.

Yasir Shah would come in at 190-8, scores 5 and Pakistan are 220 all out as Faheem Ashraf runs out of partners.

INNINGS 3 - South Africa scores 250 all out, with the quick bowlers taking 9 of the 10 wickets.
Shadab Khan would bowl 10-3-35-1.
Yasir Shah would bowl 20-5-65-1.

INNINGS 4 - Pakistan chasing either 240 (Shadab version) or 320 (Yasir version) to win.
Shadab would come in at 150-5 and score 20, falling at 190-6.
Yasir Shah would come in at 200-8 and score 10, falling as the final wicket at 230 all out.

So their typical value outside Asia looks like this:

Shadab Khan
12-3-30-0
30
10-3-35-1
20

Yasir Shah
25-8-75-1
5
20-5-65-1
10

I just don't see how you can prefer Yasir Shah to Shadab Khan outside Asia.
 
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The problem is simple. I'm a former rubbish leg-spinner, and this is one area of cricket that I understand!

Yasir Shah is a very accurate leg-spinner, whose main skill is containment, rather than being an attacking leg-spinner like Abdul Qadir or Mushtaq Ahmed.

In the first three innings of a Test outside Asia he is no weapon at all, he is a defensive bowler to tie up the scoring rate from one end while quick bowlers take wickets.

Misbah tried to use him with horrible leg-side fields in England, Australia and New Zealand and he ended up in 9 Tests taking 27 wickets at an average of 55.81

In the final innings on a deteriorating surface outside Asia he can become a more attacking weapon, as he was at Lords and The Oval in 2016. But that is true of most spinners - even Moeen Ali!

In Asia, quick bowlers are of limited use in the first three innings, and Yasir's accuracy on dry, dusty wickets makes him a worthwhile weapon.

Interestingly, Shane Warne was also primarily a containing bowler in the first three innings outside Asia like Yasir Shah is. But the difference was that his stock ball - the ripping leg-spinner - turned far more than Yasir Shah's deliveries do, so he was harder to defend against outside Asia.

So what does this mean for Yasir Shah?

In Asia, he is an automatic selection and will always take 4 or more wickets per match.

The problem is outside Asia.

Outside Asia, if Pakistan lose the toss they will always end up batting fourth. There is literally no point playing Yasir Shah if you lose the toss in Australia, England, New Zealand or South Africa because he effectively becomes a Specialist Batsman. On Day 1 and Day 3 or 4 he is a passenger as a bowler.

Even if Pakistan wins the toss outside Asia, and bats, there is still a minimal argument for selecting Yasir Shah. He will barely bowl in the First Innings on Day 2, and on Day 4 or 5 when Pakistan defends its total in the Final Innings he may do well, but so too would Shadab Khan on a deteriorating surface.

Imagine a Test on a bouncy track at Johannesburg, with Pakistan losing the toss and bowling first. Here is how I would expect Yasir Shah to fare in comparison with Shadab Khan.

INNINGS 1 - South Africa batting on a bouncy greenish track. SA 300 all out
Yasir Shah would bowl 25-8-75-1
Shadab Khan would bowl 12-3-30-0


INNINGS 2 - Pakistan fall to 50-3 in the first 20 overs, then stabilize as the Kookaburra ball loses its seam.
Shadab Khan comes in at Number 7 with Pakistan 150-5 after 45 overs, scores 30 and is dismissed at 220-7. Pakistan go on to be 290 all out.

Yasir Shah would come in at 190-8, scores 5 and Pakistan are 220 all out as Faheem Ashraf runs out of partners.

INNINGS 3 - South Africa scores 250 all out, with the quick bowlers taking 9 of the 10 wickets.
Shadab Khan would bowl 10-3-35-1.
Yasir Shah would bowl 20-5-65-1.

INNINGS 4 - Pakistan chasing either 240 (Shadab version) or 320 (Yasir version) to win.
Shadab would come in at 150-5 and score 20, falling at 190-6.
Yasir Shah would come in at 200-8 and score 10, falling as the final wicket at 230 all out.

So their typical value outside Asia looks like this:

Shadab Khan
12-3-30-0
30
10-3-35-1
20

Yasir Shah
25-8-75-1
5
20-5-65-1
10

I just don't see how you can prefer Yasir Shah to Shadab Khan outside Asia.

You can not see because you have already seen the future and thus know the outcome of playing him. But people here are mortals and want to select players on basis of their performances rather than via foreseeing the future.
On the topic yasir shah is also not very great but he ia definitely better than shadab and is no mug with bat either.
 
The problem is simple. I'm a former rubbish leg-spinner, and this is one area of cricket that I understand!

Yasir Shah is a very accurate leg-spinner, whose main skill is containment, rather than being an attacking leg-spinner like Abdul Qadir or Mushtaq Ahmed.

In the first three innings of a Test outside Asia he is no weapon at all, he is a defensive bowler to tie up the scoring rate from one end while quick bowlers take wickets.

Misbah tried to use him with horrible leg-side fields in England, Australia and New Zealand and he ended up in 9 Tests taking 27 wickets at an average of 55.81

In the final innings on a deteriorating surface outside Asia he can become a more attacking weapon, as he was at Lords and The Oval in 2016. But that is true of most spinners - even Moeen Ali!

In Asia, quick bowlers are of limited use in the first three innings, and Yasir's accuracy on dry, dusty wickets makes him a worthwhile weapon.

Interestingly, Shane Warne was also primarily a containing bowler in the first three innings outside Asia like Yasir Shah is. But the difference was that his stock ball - the ripping leg-spinner - turned far more than Yasir Shah's deliveries do, so he was harder to defend against outside Asia.

So what does this mean for Yasir Shah?

In Asia, he is an automatic selection and will always take 4 or more wickets per match.

The problem is outside Asia.

Outside Asia, if Pakistan lose the toss they will always end up batting fourth. There is literally no point playing Yasir Shah if you lose the toss in Australia, England, New Zealand or South Africa because he effectively becomes a Specialist Batsman. On Day 1 and Day 3 or 4 he is a passenger as a bowler.

Even if Pakistan wins the toss outside Asia, and bats, there is still a minimal argument for selecting Yasir Shah. He will barely bowl in the First Innings on Day 2, and on Day 4 or 5 when Pakistan defends its total in the Final Innings he may do well, but so too would Shadab Khan on a deteriorating surface.

Imagine a Test on a bouncy track at Johannesburg, with Pakistan losing the toss and bowling first. Here is how I would expect Yasir Shah to fare in comparison with Shadab Khan.

INNINGS 1 - South Africa batting on a bouncy greenish track. SA 300 all out
Yasir Shah would bowl 25-8-75-1
Shadab Khan would bowl 12-3-30-0


INNINGS 2 - Pakistan fall to 50-3 in the first 20 overs, then stabilize as the Kookaburra ball loses its seam.
Shadab Khan comes in at Number 7 with Pakistan 150-5 after 45 overs, scores 30 and is dismissed at 220-7. Pakistan go on to be 290 all out.

Yasir Shah would come in at 190-8, scores 5 and Pakistan are 220 all out as Faheem Ashraf runs out of partners.

INNINGS 3 - South Africa scores 250 all out, with the quick bowlers taking 9 of the 10 wickets.
Shadab Khan would bowl 10-3-35-1.
Yasir Shah would bowl 20-5-65-1.

INNINGS 4 - Pakistan chasing either 240 (Shadab version) or 320 (Yasir version) to win.
Shadab would come in at 150-5 and score 20, falling at 190-6.
Yasir Shah would come in at 200-8 and score 10, falling as the final wicket at 230 all out.

So their typical value outside Asia looks like this:

Shadab Khan
12-3-30-0
30
10-3-35-1
20

Yasir Shah
25-8-75-1
5
20-5-65-1
10

I just don't see how you can prefer Yasir Shah to Shadab Khan outside Asia.

Arguing with a clairvoyant is certainly interesting. That exercise apart, there are a few more points going begging here.

Yasir Shah has a 10 fer in England and a 10 fer in the Windies, where he is also MoS, but is supposed to be useless outside Asia?

Yasir Shah took 7 for 62 in England's first innings, in England.
He has taken more or the same number wickets in his first innings as in his second in 10 out of 30 Tests.

Yet he is useless except for the 4th innings?

I am not arguing with the broad strokes of the analysis, but it is overdrawn, to the point of caricature. Let's establish at the very least where is Asia.
 
Yasir is such a loser, only picked 25% of all Australian wickets in a series win, after returning from injury with no match fitness.
 
As [MENTION=132916]Junaids[/MENTION] pointed out:

"19 wickets at 40.73 in England."

Yasir Shah is an absolutely woeful bowler outside Asia.

And a very very average bowler in Asia too, for the first innings, or when the pitch is not a broken minefield.

Compare that to other spinners visiting England recently you will conclude that is a very good effort.
 
The problem is simple. I'm a former rubbish leg-spinner, and this is one area of cricket that I understand!

Yasir Shah is a very accurate leg-spinner, whose main skill is containment, rather than being an attacking leg-spinner like Abdul Qadir or Mushtaq Ahmed.

In the first three innings of a Test outside Asia he is no weapon at all, he is a defensive bowler to tie up the scoring rate from one end while quick bowlers take wickets.

Misbah tried to use him with horrible leg-side fields in England, Australia and New Zealand and he ended up in 9 Tests taking 27 wickets at an average of 55.81

In the final innings on a deteriorating surface outside Asia he can become a more attacking weapon, as he was at Lords and The Oval in 2016. But that is true of most spinners - even Moeen Ali!

In Asia, quick bowlers are of limited use in the first three innings, and Yasir's accuracy on dry, dusty wickets makes him a worthwhile weapon.

Interestingly, Shane Warne was also primarily a containing bowler in the first three innings outside Asia like Yasir Shah is. But the difference was that his stock ball - the ripping leg-spinner - turned far more than Yasir Shah's deliveries do, so he was harder to defend against outside Asia.

So what does this mean for Yasir Shah?

In Asia, he is an automatic selection and will always take 4 or more wickets per match.

The problem is outside Asia.

Outside Asia, if Pakistan lose the toss they will always end up batting fourth. There is literally no point playing Yasir Shah if you lose the toss in Australia, England, New Zealand or South Africa because he effectively becomes a Specialist Batsman. On Day 1 and Day 3 or 4 he is a passenger as a bowler.

Even if Pakistan wins the toss outside Asia, and bats, there is still a minimal argument for selecting Yasir Shah. He will barely bowl in the First Innings on Day 2, and on Day 4 or 5 when Pakistan defends its total in the Final Innings he may do well, but so too would Shadab Khan on a deteriorating surface.

Imagine a Test on a bouncy track at Johannesburg, with Pakistan losing the toss and bowling first. Here is how I would expect Yasir Shah to fare in comparison with Shadab Khan.

INNINGS 1 - South Africa batting on a bouncy greenish track. SA 300 all out
Yasir Shah would bowl 25-8-75-1
Shadab Khan would bowl 12-3-30-0


INNINGS 2 - Pakistan fall to 50-3 in the first 20 overs, then stabilize as the Kookaburra ball loses its seam.
Shadab Khan comes in at Number 7 with Pakistan 150-5 after 45 overs, scores 30 and is dismissed at 220-7. Pakistan go on to be 290 all out.

Yasir Shah would come in at 190-8, scores 5 and Pakistan are 220 all out as Faheem Ashraf runs out of partners.

INNINGS 3 - South Africa scores 250 all out, with the quick bowlers taking 9 of the 10 wickets.
Shadab Khan would bowl 10-3-35-1.
Yasir Shah would bowl 20-5-65-1.

INNINGS 4 - Pakistan chasing either 240 (Shadab version) or 320 (Yasir version) to win.
Shadab would come in at 150-5 and score 20, falling at 190-6.
Yasir Shah would come in at 200-8 and score 10, falling as the final wicket at 230 all out.

So their typical value outside Asia looks like this:

Shadab Khan
12-3-30-0
30
10-3-35-1
20

Yasir Shah
25-8-75-1
5
20-5-65-1
10

I just don't see how you can prefer Yasir Shah to Shadab Khan outside Asia.


Why are you so confident that Shadab will have those figures? In favourable conditions in the Asia Cup he was getting smashed everywhere.

He has talent but you are clearly overeating his ability with the ball. If you want to drop Yasir that's fine. But please make a logical choice and select a spinner who plays on bowling merit. Not a spinner who may or may not get extra runs with the bat.
 
Why are you so confident that Shadab will have those figures? In favourable conditions in the Asia Cup he was getting smashed everywhere.

He has talent but you are clearly overeating his ability with the ball. If you want to drop Yasir that's fine. But please make a logical choice and select a spinner who plays on bowling merit. Not a spinner who may or may not get extra runs with the bat.

Yeah, agree.

Junaids, Shadab is not the answer man.
 
I think many of you miss the point about spinners in places like Australia and South Africa.

The quicks will take all the wickets except on Day 5.

There’s no point picking a spinner unless he can bat, because in 3/4 of the match he’s a specialist batsman.

Shadab Khan won the Ireland and first England Test with the bat, if I remember correctly.

That’s more use in South Africa than having Yasir Shah bowling defensive spells to a legside field.

Look at Nathan Lyon. He did quite well in Durban, but in the next 3 Tests in South Africa what did he do?
 
I think many of you miss the point about spinners in places like Australia and South Africa.

The quicks will take all the wickets except on Day 5.

There’s no point picking a spinner unless he can bat, because in 3/4 of the match he’s a specialist batsman.

Shadab Khan won the Ireland and first England Test with the bat, if I remember correctly.

That’s more use in South Africa than having Yasir Shah bowling defensive spells to a legside field.

Look at Nathan Lyon. He did quite well in Durban, but in the next 3 Tests in South Africa what did he do?


Australia win homes games with Lyon playing as a specialist bowler. South Africa win home games and Mahraj is playing as a specialist bowler. They don't contribute with the bat yet Australia and South Africa rarely lose test series at home.
 
I think many of you miss the point about spinners in places like Australia and South Africa.

The quicks will take all the wickets except on Day 5.

There’s no point picking a spinner unless he can bat, because in 3/4 of the match he’s a specialist batsman.

Shadab Khan won the Ireland and first England Test with the bat, if I remember correctly.

That’s more use in South Africa than having Yasir Shah bowling defensive spells to a legside field.

Look at Nathan Lyon. He did quite well in Durban, but in the next 3 Tests in South Africa what did he do?

80/20 rule.

Think about it.
 
That is correct. And Lyon bowled way better than Yasir, that too in the UAE.

Overall, Lyon seems to be ahead or going ahead.




Not really.

He was our best hope in the UAE only. I hope he can get some wickets in the NZ series and prove that Aus series was just a temp dip in form.

It definitely was a dip in form, as far as 1st Test is concerned. A leggie needs time to take wickets. Yasir is one bowler who needs to bowl long spells to get in rhythm something he looked desperately out of in 1st Test. However, he bowled decently in 2nd Test. Hopefully, if needed he will take a lot of wickets in the upcoming series.
 
Yasir still is taking about 5.8 wickets/Test, which is simply phenomenal. What we are saying (about sharing wicket by others) is right, for that Murali has 800 wickets in 133 Tests - that's 6+/Test; and Warne has much lesser - 708 in 145 (4.88/Test). But, I also thought so in straight line, until I noticed another figure - his SR is 57.5, Warne's 57.4 & Murali's 55.0 - which suggests guy individually was as penetrative as Warne, but he had to carry lot more work load than Warne, because of the other bowlers in his team. His other major KPI actually is better than Warne - 13 5fors in 30 Test, vs 37 in 145.

I think for that 3 years, more than Yasir benefiting from PAK's lack of bowling options, it was more of him carrying a below per attack. Before heading to NZ in 2016, in his first 19 Tests, he had 116 wickets at 27, with a SR of 54 & 8/2, 5/10 for. And, during that period he actually played 4 Tests in UK & 8 in UAE, which is probably the worst Asian place for leg spinners. Another of his Test in BD was also played at Khulna, which produces regular scores like 600-6d in our FC cricket (still to anyone's surprise - that West Zone's 1st choice attack when everyone is available should be Mustafiz, Rubel, Mashrafee, Shakib, Miraz & A Razzak - bowling on roads in FC cricket does have an adverse effect I guess :) ).

Instead of benefiting from lack of partners, I think he has hampered more for it in that period. His long term spin partner Zulfi had an average of 39 & SR of 83, playing entire career in ASIA, which is simply not good enough to support (Add Newaz for 2 more Test, that figure should hit 50/100 I guess :( ). Regardless of bowling action issues, Ajmal's numbers are outstanding (178 wickets in 35 Tests @ 28/65 stats), but at same time his partner Rehman wasn't a novice either (99 wickets in 22 Tests @ 29/70). These figures suggest that, Yasir actually was hampered by lack of partner than benefiting from it, as teams could have played out him more carefully - had PAK got a strike pacer like Abbas or spin partner of Yasir like Ajmal or Rehman that time, his numbers would have been 10-15% better at least & PAK's record lot better, in terms or runs/wicket or SR, and obviously Test W/L.

Personally, I am a big fan of Yasir, because I like Leggis; and the guy kept PAK relevant among top Test teams for 2-3 years almost single handed. He is struggling now and I don't see him coming back to his best ever again, because of fitness & age. Yasir was introduced too late in Test cricket, at official age of almost 29 with 270+ FC wickets in possession in 12+ years FC career - that's minimum 6 years too late for PAK's standard (FC debut was 2001-02, as a 15 years old baby, Test debut in 2014-15). Ideally, he should have been Ajmal's partner from the day Kaneria got banned (August 2010 was his last Test).

Coming from his doping incidence, I think guy always struggles to manage his body weight, something Warne maintained being caught only once :); but Warne retired at 37, and at Australian 37 - going by Yasir's FC debut, my hunch is he was born as about 5 or 6 years old - which has already taken him past Warne's retirement age; therefore I don't think there is any way back to top. PAK should look to cash in him in Asian condition selectively for at most, couple more years and immediately now MUST start to look for couple of "Officially" U23 leggis, so that after 2019 "home" season, they can replace Yasir.

Looking at his phenomenal record by the official age of 31 or under, I really feel sorry for the guy - should have been standing on like 350 Test wickets by now & prepare to retire in peace. But, this has been the biggest curse of PAK cricket in last 2 decades - PCB is acting like mature cricket board of IND, AUS, SAF & ENG - that's debuting players after almost a decade of FC experience - hence Yasir Shahs, Sohail Khans, Rahat Alis, Wahab Riazs ..... are fading away at the official age when they should be on top of their game. I hope, Abbas proves me wrong - otherwise, his sell by date won't last till next English tour.

[MENTION=132916]Junaids[/MENTION] - as of now, Shadab has no future in Test cricket, until he develops a stock ball, which he can bowl effortlessly on spot for 4-5 times in an over. I am happy that your craze about Nawaz averaging 35 with bat (& 38 with ball) has got cured, and Shadab actually is a better prospect for your formula than Nawaz - still a Leggi MUST make the XI first as bowler - that Yadav (??) experiment by IND at Adelaide ended in tears. Against IRL, PAK would have won regardless of him scoring 50 or duck & same at Lord's; but at Leeds, his 52 didn't do much in a loss by innings & 55 - a better specialist bowler definitely won't have let ENG to get a ~200, 1st innings lead on that wicket - my hunch is PAK would have made ENG bat again, had a 4th pacer played in that Test over Shadab, even after taking out his 56 runs for that Test.

In SAF series, PAK will need a spinner at Newlands, which should again be Yasir or the best leggi in country (If Shadab is the next one, so it be); but for other 2 Tests at Centurion or Wanderers, it's better to play 4 specialist fast bowlers backed by Haris & Azhar & 6 batsmen - if Shadab's 30 & 20 in your formula becomes 20 & 15, PAK'll become a 10 men XI on those 2 venues. For a note - Ajmal was listed to bat at 11, and he did almost won last time at Newlands, taking 10 wickets, before PAK's batsmen & fielders chocking it out.
 
Yasir still is taking about 5.8 wickets/Test, which is simply phenomenal. What we are saying (about sharing wicket by others) is right, for that Murali has 800 wickets in 133 Tests - that's 6+/Test; and Warne has much lesser - 708 in 145 (4.88/Test). But, I also thought so in straight line, until I noticed another figure - his SR is 57.5, Warne's 57.4 & Murali's 55.0 - which suggests guy individually was as penetrative as Warne, but he had to carry lot more work load than Warne, because of the other bowlers in his team. His other major KPI actually is better than Warne - 13 5fors in 30 Test, vs 37 in 145.

I think for that 3 years, more than Yasir benefiting from PAK's lack of bowling options, it was more of him carrying a below per attack. Before heading to NZ in 2016, in his first 19 Tests, he had 116 wickets at 27, with a SR of 54 & 8/2, 5/10 for. And, during that period he actually played 4 Tests in UK & 8 in UAE, which is probably the worst Asian place for leg spinners. Another of his Test in BD was also played at Khulna, which produces regular scores like 600-6d in our FC cricket (still to anyone's surprise - that West Zone's 1st choice attack when everyone is available should be Mustafiz, Rubel, Mashrafee, Shakib, Miraz & A Razzak - bowling on roads in FC cricket does have an adverse effect I guess :) ).

Instead of benefiting from lack of partners, I think he has hampered more for it in that period. His long term spin partner Zulfi had an average of 39 & SR of 83, playing entire career in ASIA, which is simply not good enough to support (Add Newaz for 2 more Test, that figure should hit 50/100 I guess :( ). Regardless of bowling action issues, Ajmal's numbers are outstanding (178 wickets in 35 Tests @ 28/65 stats), but at same time his partner Rehman wasn't a novice either (99 wickets in 22 Tests @ 29/70). These figures suggest that, Yasir actually was hampered by lack of partner than benefiting from it, as teams could have played out him more carefully - had PAK got a strike pacer like Abbas or spin partner of Yasir like Ajmal or Rehman that time, his numbers would have been 10-15% better at least & PAK's record lot better, in terms or runs/wicket or SR, and obviously Test W/L.

Personally, I am a big fan of Yasir, because I like Leggis; and the guy kept PAK relevant among top Test teams for 2-3 years almost single handed. He is struggling now and I don't see him coming back to his best ever again, because of fitness & age. Yasir was introduced too late in Test cricket, at official age of almost 29 with 270+ FC wickets in possession in 12+ years FC career - that's minimum 6 years too late for PAK's standard (FC debut was 2001-02, as a 15 years old baby, Test debut in 2014-15). Ideally, he should have been Ajmal's partner from the day Kaneria got banned (August 2010 was his last Test).

Coming from his doping incidence, I think guy always struggles to manage his body weight, something Warne maintained being caught only once :); but Warne retired at 37, and at Australian 37 - going by Yasir's FC debut, my hunch is he was born as about 5 or 6 years old - which has already taken him past Warne's retirement age; therefore I don't think there is any way back to top. PAK should look to cash in him in Asian condition selectively for at most, couple more years and immediately now MUST start to look for couple of "Officially" U23 leggis, so that after 2019 "home" season, they can replace Yasir.

Looking at his phenomenal record by the official age of 31 or under, I really feel sorry for the guy - should have been standing on like 350 Test wickets by now & prepare to retire in peace. But, this has been the biggest curse of PAK cricket in last 2 decades - PCB is acting like mature cricket board of IND, AUS, SAF & ENG - that's debuting players after almost a decade of FC experience - hence Yasir Shahs, Sohail Khans, Rahat Alis, Wahab Riazs ..... are fading away at the official age when they should be on top of their game. I hope, Abbas proves me wrong - otherwise, his sell by date won't last till next English tour.

[MENTION=132916]Junaids[/MENTION] - as of now, Shadab has no future in Test cricket, until he develops a stock ball, which he can bowl effortlessly on spot for 4-5 times in an over. I am happy that your craze about Nawaz averaging 35 with bat (& 38 with ball) has got cured, and Shadab actually is a better prospect for your formula than Nawaz - still a Leggi MUST make the XI first as bowler - that Yadav (??) experiment by IND at Adelaide ended in tears. Against IRL, PAK would have won regardless of him scoring 50 or duck & same at Lord's; but at Leeds, his 52 didn't do much in a loss by innings & 55 - a better specialist bowler definitely won't have let ENG to get a ~200, 1st innings lead on that wicket - my hunch is PAK would have made ENG bat again, had a 4th pacer played in that Test over Shadab, even after taking out his 56 runs for that Test.

In SAF series, PAK will need a spinner at Newlands, which should again be Yasir or the best leggi in country (If Shadab is the next one, so it be); but for other 2 Tests at Centurion or Wanderers, it's better to play 4 specialist fast bowlers backed by Haris & Azhar & 6 batsmen - if Shadab's 30 & 20 in your formula becomes 20 & 15, PAK'll become a 10 men XI on those 2 venues. For a note - Ajmal was listed to bat at 11, and he did almost won last time at Newlands, taking 10 wickets, before PAK's batsmen & fielders chocking it out.
[MENTION=132916]Junaids[/MENTION] please reply to the last 3 lines :))). Something that exposes your theory on having to contribute with the bat to play as a spinner.
 
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[MENTION=132916]Junaids[/MENTION] please reply to the last 3 lines :))). Something that exposes your theory on having to contribute with the bat to play as a spinner.

PAK won a Test at Durban 20 years back, against probably SAF's best ever top 3 sides, with a bottom 4 of Waquar, Mushi, Shoaib & Fazal e Akbar ........ in some Tests, those 4 might score more with ball (wickets taken) than with bat (runs scored), but they did know how to get batsmen out when they were in defensive mood & trying to survive. Shadab will need batsmen to go after him and lots of luck - still won't take a 5for in Test with his current level - that's too much to cover for beautiful 30s & 40s with bat.
 
PAK won a Test at Durban 20 years back, against probably SAF's best ever top 3 sides, with a bottom 4 of Waquar, Mushi, Shoaib & Fazal e Akbar ........ in some Tests, those 4 might score more with ball (wickets taken) than with bat (runs scored), but they did know how to get batsmen out when they were in defensive mood & trying to survive. Shadab will need batsmen to go after him and lots of luck - still won't take a 5for in Test with his current level - that's too much to cover for beautiful 30s & 40s with bat.

I like Shadab but he can't play as a frontline spinner tests. Also there's no certainty with Junaids theory that he will score a 50.
 
Alright Yasir was been found out. He was great early on in his career and expect him to fade away as teams prepare more against him. The lack of variety variations the main tormentor for this.
 
[MENTION=132916]Junaids[/MENTION] please reply to the last 3 lines :))). Something that exposes your theory on having to contribute with the bat to play as a spinner.
I agree that at Cape Town there could be a role for Yasir Shah - it’s at sea level.

But on the High Veldt at Johannesburg and Centurion he would barely get a bowl. At those two grounds you play an extra all-rounder who can bowl spin or pace.
 
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