How can we expect anyone to solve the lower order hitter dilemma when no one ever has?

[Major]

Since 2003, if there is one dilemma Pakistan has faced, its the lower order hitter dilemma. There have been a list of players that have been tried at that position, and while a few had good purple patches, almost all of them failed to solve Pakistan's lower order hitting problem.

From 2003 till 2007, we tried Afridi, Rana Naveed, Shoaib Malik and Misbah. While these guys had there purple patches they would all fail to maintain their position in the lower order. Malik and Misbah would shift to middle, while Afridi was in and out with his patches.

From 2007 to 2015, we tried Afridi, Abdul Razzaq, Umar Gul and Umar Akmal. Razzaq would play a blinder of an innings in UAE against South Africa, but in the next 17 games, he would fail to get runs and was soon out of the team again. Afridi being Afridi sucked and maintain his spot somehow, while Umar Akmal couldn't either fulfill the role. During 2012, Umar Gul was discovered to hit a few high bouncers, but Gul was never developed as a proper allrounder

From 2015 to 2019, a new generation of players came in. These guys were Imad Wasim, Anwar Ali, Sarfraz himself, and yet they again failed and were soon out of the team due to their lack of hitting abilities.

From 2019 onwards came in the current lot, Asif Ali, Danish Aziz, Azam Khan, Khushdil Shah, Iftikhar Ahmed, Shadab Khan and Mohammad Nawaz. Yet again all these guys failed massively, with each player having a purple patch in few games.

Now the upcoming lot, Irfan Niazi, Jahandad Khan and Amir Jamal will be again given the task and we know how bad the success rate.

I dont know what was it like pre 2003, was it always as bad? Who has been Pakistan best lower order batter? Imran, Wasim?

 

[Rana]

From 2003 till 2007, we tried Afridi, Rana Naveed, Shoaib Malik and Misbah. While these guys had there purple patches they would all fail to maintain their position in the lower order. Malik and Misbah would shift to middle, while Afridi was in and out with his patches.

Pakistan were never trying Rana Naved and Misbah ul Haq as their lower order hitters from 2003-2007

 

[Major]

Pakistan were never trying Rana Naved and Misbah ul Haq as their lower order hitters from 2003-2007

Rana naveeds i famous 90 plus innings that got his stallions into the finals is something he was remembered for and was the reason why he was than considered as a lower order hitter

And I am not even gonna argue if you dont even know the role Misbah had in the 2007 world t20

 

[Rana]

Rana naveeds i famous 90 plus innings that got his stallions into the finals is something he was remembered for and was the reason why he was than considered as a lower order hitter

And I am not even gonna argue if you dont even know the role Misbah had in the 2007 world t20

What was Misbah’s role in the 2007 World Cup? Was he there as a hitter or was he there to bat in the middle with Malik??

 

[DeadlyVenom]

There is too much pressure on our so called lower order hitters because the top order doesn't hit.

Hitters like you describe really only have 1 or 2 in 5 success rate ( at best). They can pull off miracles or give the team a quick bump.

You can't expect them to perform all the time which is the expectation in Pakistan.

 

[Dr_Bassim]

We have Rizwan and Babar who can increase the RRR to 13 per over while striking their lovely 50s while asking the lower order to magically score at 13 RPO from the start and get Pakistan over the line.

That tells you all you need to know about Pakistan cricket.

 

[mominsaigol]

Pakistan were never trying Rana Naved and Misbah ul Haq as their lower order hitters from 2003-2007

Rana naveeds i famous 90 plus innings that got his stallions into the finals is something he was remembered for and was the reason why he was than considered as a lower order hitter

And I am not even gonna argue if you dont even know the role Misbah had in the 2007 world t20, not even worth wasting time with you to be honest.

Misbah was not a lower order hitter.

Against australia he came before both Afridi and Kamran Akmal. YK before the tournament even made it clear what the roles were.

In the match against Scotland, in the final overs afridi was promoted ahead of Misbah to score 22 of 7, because when the wicket fell and Misbah came in he scored 23 of 16.

Even against sri lanka both kamran and afridi were promoted ahead of Misbah after the 15th over was done.

Misbah only batted at 6 if Wickets fell early hence all his 50 scores happened when early wickets fell and he came before the 10th or max before the 12th.

Afridi and Kamran akmal were the finishers, not Misbah.

 

[BouncerGuy]

Pre-2003, players like Wasim Akram and Imran Khan were Pakistan's best lower-order batters, making them arguably Pakistan's best in that role.

Since then, it has been a downfall. Pakistan has been struggling in that department.

 

[mominsaigol]

Pre-2003, players like Wasim Akram and Imran Khan were Pakistan's best lower-order batters, making them arguably Pakistan's best in that role.

Since then, it has been a downfall. Pakistan has been struggling in that department.

Pakistan should try what India did, no joke.

India during the old era when Dhoni came in was actually the opposite.

Their top order was extremely aggressive with Sachin, sehwag, Ghambir and yuvi going bang bang mode.

Dhoni ironically is not aggressive like people claim him to be. He actually took the game deep and finished it, similar to Bevan.

It might be a good idea to have bang bang openers and middle order while the lower order takes it deep and tries to finish games.

It worked for Australia and India. It didn't work for England though

 

[BouncerGuy]

Pakistan should try what India did, no joke.

India during the old era when Dhoni came in was actually the opposite.

Their top order was extremely aggressive with Sachin, sehwag, Ghambir and yuvi going bang bang mode.

Dhoni ironically is not aggressive like people claim him to be. He actually took the game deep and finished it, similar to Bevan.

It might be a good idea to have bang bang openers and middle order while the lower order takes it deep and tries to finish games.

It worked for Australia and India. It didn't work for England though

Pakistan players are not built for this type of cricket. They will continue to play 90s cricket. Hard to teach anyone "to be brave".

 

[mominsaigol]

Pakistan players are not built for this type of cricket. They will continue to play 90s cricket. Hard to teach anyone "to be brave".

If you made me pcb chairman, problems would be fixed instantly.

 

[BouncerGuy]

If you made me pcb chairman, problems would be fixed instantly.

That is not how things work here in Pakistan. Do you have connections???

TBH, Pakistan needs to play a brave cricket and this is not happening atm.

 

[mominsaigol]

That is not how things work here in Pakistan. Do you have connections???

TBH, Pakistan needs to play a brave cricket and this is not happening atm.

Brother, I'm not even in pakistan.

I went to Australia, then to UK, then to Australia and now in 2025 I'm going to USA . The funny thing is I'm not even being sarcastic, no matter how hard I try to visit pakistan, some company in some country prevents me from going back.

But the day I arrive in pakistan, I'll head over to PCB, get that 5 star wanted level like in GTA and become Kingpin. Then you'll see pakistan fixed under me.

 

[BouncerGuy]

Brother, I'm not even in pakistan.

I went to Australia, then to UK, then to Australia and now in 2025 I'm going to USA . The funny thing is I'm not even being sarcastic, no matter how hard I try to visit pakistan, some company in some country prevents me from going back.

But the day I arrive in pakistan, I'll head over to PCB, get that 5 star wanted level like in GTA and become Kingpin. Then you'll see pakistan fixed under me.

How will you fix the lower order issues???

do you have the solution??? JOKES APART

 

[mominsaigol]

How will you fix the lower order issues???

do you have the solution??? JOKES APART

Easier to fix in test. Difficult to fix in odi and t20.

But my solution is simple, The team that played acc emerging cup, Send them in. The only difference will be that you'll have to add in fakhar, Saud etc for obvious reasons.

Theirs one cricketer named Mubashir khan in acc who played at 7, he took the game deep. Atm.hes 22 and is young and isn't too bad in List A.

Can groom him. Muhammad haris(ik he's not consistent) but I'd back him, he can be your makeshift player, can bat anywhere from no 1 to no 7 and is solid utility.

Agha and saud shpuld be no 4 and no 5 and be backed fully.

Rizwan removed from t20 however I've started to lighten up to rizzu, with Babar having poor form and let's face it, rizwam is defo captaining, I'd remove Babar and let rizwam be no 3 instead and act like a captain. If rizzu wants to be an anchorer then no 3 is best bet.

 

[BouncerGuy]

Theirs one cricketer named Mubashir khan in acc who played at 7, he took the game deep. Atm.hes 22 and is young and isn't too bad in List A.

He is the one guy I can see who might do well because he is a perfect spin bowling all-rounder who is a genuine all-rounder IMO.

 

[mominsaigol]

He is the one guy I can see who might do well because he is a perfect spin bowling all-rounder who is a genuine all-rounder IMO.

See, my big brain is at work

 

[pratiktc]

Batting in #5-7 is most difficult slot in white ball cricket. These positions have high failure rates and it is unusual for a cricketer to succeed over a long time frame.

Dhoni, Bevan are rare examples of players who stayed successful in these positions for nearly 7-8 yrs.

If you see in recent past, teams that have solved this issue temporarily through good form of players usually end up having successful white ball tournaments because invariably in tournament play there are 1-2 critical matches where under pressure bailout or heist is needed from lower middle order

Eng in 2019 probably had the best ever combo with peak Stokes and Buttler at #5 and #6.

India did well in 2011 and 2015 WCs with Yuvraj, Dhoni, Raina axis in middle order.

Aus has persisted with Maxwell and Stoinis in white ball cricket despite long inconsistent streaks because at their best they can jailbreak a game like Stoinis 146 vs NZ or Maxwell's Afg miracle

 

[Rana]

Pre-2003, players like Wasim Akram and Imran Khan were Pakistan's best lower-order batters, making them arguably Pakistan's best in that role.

Since then, it has been a downfall. Pakistan has been struggling in that department.

Well, no wonder you love certain types of cricketers

Where does Abdul Razzaq fit in your esteem?

 

[mominsaigol]

Well, no wonder you love certain types of cricketers

Where does Abdul Razzaq fit in your esteem?

His Sa innings is unbelievable. Regardless even Razzaq liked to take it deep.

My suggestion on focusing on the top order being aggressive with the lower order adopting a Dhoni esc approach or Bevan esc approach isn't outdated. Unless you're Butler most teams adopt this approach.

It even makes sense, why is the lower order suppose to be more aggressive when the top order has a PP breeze, while the lower order has to deal with 5 outer rings?

Razzaq, Wasim, Imran all likes taking things deep, It was only afridi who was bang bang from the get go

 

[Nikhil_cric]

His Sa innings is unbelievable. Regardless even Razzaq liked to take it deep.

My suggestion on focusing on the top order being aggressive with the lower order adopting a Dhoni esc approach or Bevan esc approach isn't outdated. Unless you're Butler most teams adopt this approach.

It even makes sense, why is the lower order suppose to be more aggressive when the top order has a PP breeze, while the lower order has to deal with 5 outer rings?

Razzaq, Wasim, Imran all likes taking things deep, It was only afridi who was bang bang from the get go

Razzaq was literally the best #7 in ODI cricket , bro.

He took it deep because he knew could explode at the death like no other .

And if a #7 is forced to take it deep, It signified the failure of the top order anyway.

 

[pratiktc]

It even makes sense, why is the lower order suppose to be more aggressive when the top order has a PP breeze, while the lower order has to deal with 5 outer rings?

Razzaq, Bevan, Dhoni were product of their era and rules which allowed for taking things deep in both first inns and in second inns.

In modern white ball cricket, need is not for designated #6-#7 batters but for floaters who can walk in anywhere from #3 to #7 and take on a favourable matchup to give nitroboost to run rate.
India did this with Axar and Dube using them as spin hitters in WT20. Eng are trying to do this with Sam Curran and Liam Livingstone.

Aus have had their wildcard Maxwell for last 10 years

All these batters have their limitations and will never be greats, but they are given clear role clarity from team management and allowed to fail

 

[mominsaigol]

Razzaq, Bevan, Dhoni were product of their era and rules which allowed for taking things deep in both first inns and in second inns.

In modern white ball cricket, need is not for designated #6-#7 batters but for floaters who can walk in anywhere from #3 to #7 and take on a favourable matchup to give nitroboost to run rate.
India did this with Axar and Dube using them as spin hitters in WT20. Eng are trying to do this with Sam Curran and Liam Livingstone.

Aus have had their wildcard Maxwell for last 10 years

All these batters have their limitations and will never be greats, but they are given clear role clarity from team management and allowed to fail

Maxwell is an allrounder great, that 201 that he did is single handidely greater then what any allrounder has ever achieved unless you're gonna go all the way back to the 90's or 80's where miandad or kapil dev also played such gems for their era.

And it depends on the situation. If a players walks in when 50 is required of 30, then can easily take it to the last over and finish it. In this time they can take singles, doubles, put the bad ball away for the boundary and teust themselves to get 9 to 13nruns in the final 6 balls?

 

[Rana]

I’m trying to recollect the years 2003-07 where Rana Naved was being tried as Pakistan’s lower order hitter….






Hahahahahahahahahahahahahhahahahahaahhaahahhaahhawhhaahhahahahahahahahahahahahaahhahhahahahaha

 

[Major]

Razzaq was literally the best #7 in ODI cricket , bro.

He took it deep because he knew could explode at the death like no other .

And if a #7 is forced to take it deep, It signified the failure of the top order anyway.

Razzaq was over rated.

Razzaq would play one good innings, and than for the next 15 games do nothing. As a bowler, he was special as he would get you a wicket out of no where, but his batting was seriously over rated.

I always hated afridis batting, and blame him for many of our losses, but i would still pick afridi over razzaq for lower order hitting

 

[Rana]

Can people who watched our cricket from 2003-07 share games where Rana Naveed was being tried as the lower order hitter?

 

[Major]

Batting in #5-7 is most difficult slot in white ball cricket. These positions have high failure rates and it is unusual for a cricketer to succeed over a long time frame.

Dhoni, Bevan are rare examples of players who stayed successful in these positions for nearly 7-8 yrs.

If you see in recent past, teams that have solved this issue temporarily through good form of players usually end up having successful white ball tournaments because invariably in tournament play there are 1-2 critical matches where under pressure bailout or heist is needed from lower middle order

Eng in 2019 probably had the best ever combo with peak Stokes and Buttler at #5 and #6.

India did well in 2011 and 2015 WCs with Yuvraj, Dhoni, Raina axis in middle order.

Aus has persisted with Maxwell and Stoinis in white ball cricket despite long inconsistent streaks because at their best they can jailbreak a game like Stoinis 146 vs NZ or Maxwell's Afg miracle

Dhoni was probably the best lower order batter.

Bevan played with a different style. His style was less boundaries and more strike rotation.

But anyways, it makes me curious, if non of them have done it, how can we expect future players to do anything better

 

[Major]

Misbah was not a lower order hitter.

Against australia he came before both Afridi and Kamran Akmal. YK before the tournament even made it clear what the roles were.

In the match against Scotland, in the final overs afridi was promoted ahead of Misbah to score 22 of 7, because when the wicket fell and Misbah came in he scored 23 of 16.

Even against sri lanka both kamran and afridi were promoted ahead of Misbah after the 15th over was done.

Misbah only batted at 6 if Wickets fell early hence all his 50 scores happened when early wickets fell and he came before the 10th or max before the 12th.

Afridi and Kamran akmal were the finishers, not Misbah.

Bro, misbah role was lower order batting in the world t20 2007. He wasnt a middle order batter.

The order isnt decided by number of position, its decided by when the guy comes out to bat.

Dhoni came at no.5, but he is often discussed as a lower order batter and not a middle order guy, even in this thread.

Did you watch the world t20 2007?

 

[Rana]

Bro, misbah role was lower order batting in the world t20 2007. He wasnt a middle order batter.

The order isnt decided by number of position, its decided by when the guy comes out to bat.

Dhoni came at no.5, but he is often discussed as a lower order batter and not a middle order guy, even in this thread.

Did you watch the world t20 2007?

Misbah was never ever picked as the lower order hitter. He was picked as the extra cover for middle order just like teams in football pick the extra midfielder or CDM to shore up the defence and midfield.

There is absolutely NOTHING to suggest that a guy who’s played all of his career in hope to bat in middle order positions was going to adapt his game into a style that isn’t suited to him! A lower order hitter has the ability to go hard from ball one in the death overs, Misbah isn’t, wasn’t and never was that type of player! Even Misbah will laugh at the thought that he was apparently picked to represent Pakistan as the lower order hitter

 

[Nikhil_cric]

Bro, misbah role was lower order batting in the world t20 2007. He wasnt a middle order batter.

The order isnt decided by number of position, its decided by when the guy comes out to bat.

Dhoni came at no.5, but he is often discussed as a lower order batter and not a middle order guy, even in this thread.

Did you watch the world t20 2007?

Are you seriously making the argument that Misbah was a better finisher than Razzaq? Razzaq will probably make an all time XI just for hitting at 7, mate. Afridi was the overrated one.

 

[Nikhil_cric]

Batting records | One-Day Internationals | Cricinfo Statsguru | ESPNcricinfo.com

stats.espncricinfo.com

Against Top 8 sides in the entire history of ODI cricket, nobody has scored nearly 1800 runs with 32/91 stats while batting as finisher at #7.

 

[mominsaigol]

Bro, misbah role was lower order batting in the world t20 2007. He wasnt a middle order batter.

The order isnt decided by number of position, its decided by when the guy comes out to bat.

Dhoni came at no.5, but he is often discussed as a lower order batter and not a middle order guy, even in this thread.

Did you watch the world t20 2007?

I did my dude, all in full.

He came at no 6 every game which was before Afridi and kamran. However afridi and kamran would be promoted ahead if their were less then 5 overs remaining due to their power hitting.

Misbah's job was more or less to come in at the middle to steer a proper platform for afridi and kamran to finish.

Infact if you watch the game with Australia, India and other games, Misbah was sent to steady and finish.

We can agree to disagree however, I don't mind because the no 6 position is still a finisher role, so I won't deny that, but based of my observation, his job was to lay a platform for afridi and Akmal to finish and sometimes he got sent below them because he wasnt needed as malik had already done his job.

 

[mominsaigol]

Misbah was never ever picked as the lower order hitter. He was picked as the extra cover for middle order just like teams in football pick the extra midfielder or CDM to shore up the defence and midfield.

There is absolutely NOTHING to suggest that a guy who’s played all of his career in hope to bat in middle order positions was going to adapt his game into a style that isn’t suited to him! A lower order hitter has the ability to go hard from ball one in the death overs, Misbah isn’t, wasn’t and never was that type of player! Even Misbah will laugh at the thought that he was apparently picked to represent Pakistan as the lower order hitter

The landscape for t20 was also vastly vastly different in 2007 then it is now, Nowadays the concept of having an extra defense wouldn't work with teams like Australia jampacking their t20 side with 140 SR bats from 1 to 8

 

[mominsaigol]

Are you seriously making the argument that Misbah was a better finisher than Razzaq? Razzaq will probably make an all time XI just for hitting at 7, mate. Afridi was the overrated one.

Agreed except for the all time 11 thing. He defo makes the Pakistan all time 11 but overall I think their better no 7 and no 8 allrounders out their.

 

[mominsaigol]

Razzaq was over rated.

Razzaq would play one good innings, and than for the next 15 games do nothing. As a bowler, he was special as he would get you a wicket out of no where, but his batting was seriously over rated.

I always hated afridis batting, and blame him for many of our losses, but i would still pick afridi over razzaq for lower order hitting

He wasnt, Averaging 30 with a strike rate of 81 in that era at no 7 or 8 is extremely good.

He even has 3 centuries and multiple 50's. Yes he wasnt consistent but when he performed he made sure to take it deep and finish the game however he was also adjustable and flexible enough to start hitting of the bat.

Afridi on the other hand is a one note batter who just attacks and hopes for the best. Yes afridi has played innings such as 100 of 45 against India, 100 of 37 etc which razzaq cannot dream of, but Afridi was 1000x more inconsistent razzaq was and with the exception of India in 2014, Afridi cannot finish and win games for the life of him.

Imo pakistan missed a trick with afridi not opening in t20 and in odi, it was at that position he struck a 100 of 45. He could have functioned how rohit functions in odi nowadays.

Rohit he's out as soon as 10 overs are done and PP is over but before those 10 overs are done he makes sure the damage is painful.

 

[Nikhil_cric]

Agreed except for the all time 11 thing. He defo makes the Pakistan all time 11 but overall I think their better no 7 and no 8 allrounders out their.

I posted his batting stats above. There arent too many actually.

 

[mominsaigol]

I posted his batting stats above. There arent too many actually.

Well it depends? Where are you batting him? At 7 or 8? Razzaq has played in both lol.

If it's no 7, you're better off with Bevan, Dhoni, kapil dev or even Imran Khan etc etc

However if it's no 8, razzaq makes one heck of a case to be put in, it'll create a long batting line up and no 8 is his den

 

[RidiculousMan]

Promote Aamer Jamal at no. 6 or 7. He's an all rounder and his game suits aggressive style of play. He will also be able to contribute with the ball and you don't have to ever worry about the extra seamer option.

This way the middle order batters will play the middle order positions.

 

[Major]

Are you seriously making the argument that Misbah was a better finisher than Razzaq? Razzaq will probably make an all time XI just for hitting at 7, mate. Afridi was the overrated one.

where did i said that? Unless you have comprehension issues... Or dyslexia and mixed Afridi with Misbah.

You claiming Razzaq making an all time xi just for hitting at no. 7 is as an insult to Imran Khan and Wasim Akram.

Afridi was over rated, where did i said he was not? You are making alot of assumptions.

Afridi and Razzaq both were over rated, but in comparison, Afridi was the better one.

 

[RyanRyan10]

Well, no wonder you love certain types of cricketers

Where does Abdul Razzaq fit in your esteem?

This thread was started to defend Misbah's buddy Iftikhar.

 

[Major]

I did my dude, all in full.

He came at no 6 every game which was before Afridi and kamran. However afridi and kamran would be promoted ahead if their were less then 5 overs remaining due to their power hitting.

Misbah's job was more or less to come in at the middle to steer a proper platform for afridi and kamran to finish.

Infact if you watch the game with Australia, India and other games, Misbah was sent to steady and finish.

We can agree to disagree however, I don't mind because the no 6 position is still a finisher role, so I won't deny that, but based of my observation, his job was to lay a platform for afridi and Akmal to finish and sometimes he got sent below them because he wasnt needed as malik had already done his job.

In the last para, that was a role he adopted after 2010 comeback.

But in 2007 tournament he was doing lower order job because Malik was gonna set himself in the middle order and Misbah was only added in the team because of 100 he made in a T20 game i think with Pakistan A. He was kind off a last minute addition by Malik

 

[Major]

This thread was started to defend Misbah's buddy Iftikhar.

Drop him.

Meanwhile, your @Rana wants Misbah's buddy Asif Ali as captain.

 

[Major]

The purpose of this thread is what are the standards for someone like Irfan Niazi or even Aamer Jamal if no one has ever been able to do a job that they will be eventually be selected for.

Iftikhar is not gonna get selected anymore, because he is a PTI supporter and Naqvi and co are removing players that are showing their political affiliation as Pro PTI. Infact, PCT has moved on from Ifti, Asif, Azam and Imad and the next guys are Jahandad, A. Jamal and Irfan

Irfan Niazi is the most talked about talent in Pakistan, but if his career in international cricket would depend upon if he plays in the lower order or middle order. Middle order allows him to bat slowly and make a proper career, while lower order would mean that get 25 matches and be axed from the team.

Jahandad Khan is not as good, but might aswell be considered. Meanwhile Aamir Jamal who bowls all over the wicket and gets his for runs, might be up for consideration.

 

[mominsaigol]

In the last para, that was a role he adopted after 2010 comeback.

But in 2007 tournament he was doing lower order job because Malik was gonna set himself in the middle order and Misbah was only added in the team because of 100 he made in a T20 game i think with Pakistan A. He was kind off a last minute addition by Malik

Yeah no 6 is a finisher role. But I do know he didn't play said role, his role was mostly a mix.

I think we can dub it as a lower order batter rather then a lower order hitter. He wasnt really coming in to bang bang or anything, it really depended on the situation.

For example his innings with Australia ended in a 6, however the rest of the innings was mostly a bit of anchoring at the start then rr maintaince then then finishing.

I only disagree with you on the finisher role, for me his role was mixed and designed to be flexible due to being a last minute addition. It was an allrounder esc batting role aka being flexible

 

[jnaveen1980]

Razzaq and Afridi are the best lower order in Pak history. Umar Akmal was a bit more consistent. But these 2 are head and shoulders above others. They could be inconsistent. They are still the best.

 

[mominsaigol]

Drop him.

Meanwhile, your @Rana wants Misbah's buddy Asif Ali as captain.

Theirs a player by the name of Mubashir Khan, look him up, he can answer at no 7, but he isn't exactly a bang bang player

 

[Major]

Theirs a player by the name of Mubashir Khan, look him up, he can answer at no 7, but he isn't exactly a bang bang player

his batting issues are i think similar to nawaz and shadab.

Guy was in IU, Shadab did not play him so taht he isnt a threat for him.........

 

[mominsaigol]

his batting issues are i think similar to nawaz and shadab.

Guy was in IU, Shadab did not play him so taht he isnt a threat for him.........

They aren't, If you watched acc cup you'd know he is far superior as a batter to those 2.

Shadab bottom hands everything, he's the very definition of a slogger which is why he can tullei baz to a 40 of 20 once in every 25 games. He has zero cricketing shots besides swinging with the bottom hand, but unlike azam khan and asif Ali, Shadab Khan has footwork which is why he's better at it and he's fitter so faster reaction times.

Nawaz on the other hand idk, He's a genuine batter and you can tell he has experience batting in fc, and list A. Idkw he's so poor, since 99% of the time his footwork is all over the place. My guess is he likely opened or batted at 3 or 4 and pakistan sent him at 7 and he just can't adjust, he's not a natural power hitter, he's more so in the Imam category, aka a decent vatter but one who possess zero boundary scscoring lofted strokes which explains why Imam frequently departs at the 40th.

So probably why nawaz can't function their. But even so at opening he'd be average.

 

[Rana]

This thread was started to defend Misbah's buddy Iftikhar.

Yeah I think OP feels it’s 2014 and people won’t be able to read through his agenda

 

[mominsaigol]

Yeah I think OP feels it’s 2014 and people won’t be able to read through his agenda

Chacha has nothing to complain about. If he was good, Misbah wouldn't have a need to hide him.

Yes Babar didn't utilise him correctly as he isn't a lower order hitter, but it's not like Misbah didn't try and chacha was still crap.

Misbah shuffled him up and down to avoid wrist spin, even back then he played the same, 99% of the time it was 25 of 21 and then play a stupid shot and get out.

The few times he's managed a 50 which we're his best innings we're still round about 35 to 42 balls to get their.

 

[Nikhil_cric]

where did i said that? Unless you have comprehension issues... Or dyslexia and mixed Afridi with Misbah.

You claiming Razzaq making an all time xi just for hitting at no. 7 is as an insult to Imran Khan and Wasim Akram.

Afridi was over rated, where did i said he was not? You are making alot of assumptions.

Afridi and Razzaq both were over rated, but in comparison, Afridi was the better one.

Wasim Akram will bat at #8 in a lineup and was only sent up as a pinch hitter.

Imran was not the hitter that Razzaq was.

 

[Dr_Bassim]

Razzaq had his faults but to say he is overrated is laughable.

Pakistan actually used him at no 3 in 99 World Cup with varying degrees of success.

He had the ability to win games out of nothing.

But even Razzaq would fail if he was asked to cover Babar and Rizwans stat padded innings and cover a 13 RRR on walking out.

Its that simple.

Problem is the top order.

 

[TheSultan]

Sorry, I don’t understand the premise of this thread. We have so many fundamental problems, why would we want to fix the “lower order issues”.

I mean that comes one million and 500th on the list!

And even if that crosses your mind, can we try a preventative measure before that. Ie score a bit quicker up front!!

 

[Major]

Wasim Akram will bat at #8 in a lineup and was only sent up as a pinch hitter.

Imran was not the hitter that Razzaq was.

have you seen Imran play?

 

[Major]

Razzaq had his faults but to say he is overrated is laughable.

Pakistan actually used him at no 3 in 99 World Cup with varying degrees of success.

He had the ability to win games out of nothing.

But even Razzaq would fail if he was asked to cover Babar and Rizwans stat padded innings and cover a 13 RRR on walking out.

Its that simple.

Problem is the top order.

Our issue in the lower order exists, and after every World Cup we have cried about this. 2019 World Cup, 2011 World Cup was all about the lower order issue.

And i agree, if the solution to fix the lower order is to play fast from the top order like we were during between 2017 and 2019 that can also work aswell

As for Razzaq comment, guy was over rated, he played many games on the basis of one off performance with the bat at lower order. This is a criticism that Afridi dealt with all his life, but when it comes to Razzaq people are willing to turn a blind eye.

 

[Major]

They aren't, If you watched acc cup you'd know he is far superior as a batter to those 2.

Shadab bottom hands everything, he's the very definition of a slogger which is why he can tullei baz to a 40 of 20 once in every 25 games. He has zero cricketing shots besides swinging with the bottom hand, but unlike azam khan and asif Ali, Shadab Khan has footwork which is why he's better at it and he's fitter so faster reaction times.

Nawaz on the other hand idk, He's a genuine batter and you can tell he has experience batting in fc, and list A. Idkw he's so poor, since 99% of the time his footwork is all over the place. My guess is he likely opened or batted at 3 or 4 and pakistan sent him at 7 and he just can't adjust, he's not a natural power hitter, he's more so in the Imam category, aka a decent vatter but one who possess zero boundary scscoring lofted strokes which explains why Imam frequently departs at the 40th.

So probably why nawaz can't function their. But even so at opening he'd be average.

I dont trust him. Because after seeing Shadab and Nawaz i think he will also fail, but i hope i get proven wrong.

Sometimes its about confidence. Early on Sarfraz sucked at international cricket because of lack of conifdence and he needed Moin Khan in the management that would boost his confidnece which helped him alot.

But lets see, i heard he is a good spin talent.

 

[Rana]

Theirs a player by the name of Mubashir Khan, look him up, he can answer at no 7, but he isn't exactly a bang bang player

Aamer Jamal could be quite handy if Pakistan starts to invest in him seriously.

 

[Rana]

How are you supposed to make sense with anyone who claims Abdul Razzaq is overrated?

The same guy who claims Suryakumar Yadav is overrated.

How can you make sense with them?

 

[Nikhil_cric]

have you seen Imran play?

I have seen enough of him play.

 

[mominsaigol]

Aamer Jamal could be quite handy if Pakistan starts to invest in him seriously.

Yeah him as welll

 

[mominsaigol]

I dont trust him. Because after seeing Shadab and Nawaz i think he will also fail, but i hope i get proven wrong.

Sometimes its about confidence. Early on Sarfraz sucked at international cricket because of lack of conifdence and he needed Moin Khan in the management that would boost his confidnece which helped him alot.

But lets see, i heard he is a good spin talent.

He'll probs fail early on, it depends how pcb handles him.

Regardless pakistan need to hunt for genuine spinners either way.

And yes ik people panicked after seeing abrar fail but it's early days and abrar succeeded in the past.

Typical pakistani fans panick after 1 failure. I back Abrar, and mubashir should be backed. Aamer jamal is another one who shpuld be backed.

Pakistan need a change in approach now. Shadab, Ifti, Azam, Nawaz and other dead weights got to go.

Also ik you back Babar as a batter, but I backed Abdullah and saim and they ain't up to the mark, for now these guys should go and be replaced atm.

 

[Major]

Yeah him as welll

I think Aamer Jamil can only have a long career if he becomes an allrounder. As a bowler, he is awful and he fluked in Australia cause the Australian side was quite bad and we should not had lost.

He bowls all over the wicket and is not consisstent with his line and length. If he wont fix that and rely on pace and bounce for wickets like Hardik does (with bounce), than he might aswell work on his batting.

 

[Misia]

That is not how things work here in Pakistan. Do you have connections???

TBH, Pakistan needs to play a brave cricket and this is not happening atm.

Drop the lot.
Start from scratch all new young domestic players with proven good long REDBALL records and with high SR/AVG for T20
Give them a chance to make a name for themselves and make Pakistan cricket great again
It will take a few years, but Pakistan cricket will be far better for it.

 

[mominsaigol]

I think Aamer Jamil can only have a long career if he becomes an allrounder. As a bowler, he is awful and he fluked in Australia cause the Australian side was quite bad and we should not had lost.

He bowls all over the wicket and is not consisstent with his line and length. If he wont fix that and rely on pace and bounce for wickets like Hardik does (with bounce), than he might aswell work on his batting.

That's fair however those who are performing shpuld be backed.

The thing is Travis head would not be the player that he is today if he wasnt kept in check and dropped. Australia keeps a very tight leash on their players. They make it clear that even if their in the form of their lives, they'll get the boot if they find someone better.

CA didn't bow to the pressure of taking Jake fraser and aussie fans including myself cussed at CA however against Scotland I have to eat my words because turns our CA was right and knew that it was too early.

Shadab would have been a better allrounder today, same with Babar and others if they knew they were replaceable and a chairman bootlicking contest wasn't established.

The way I see it atm, Abrar is performing (performed in past, bangla game is one atm so no biggie), Jamal performed against australia, Saud and rizzu got 100's atleast, Khurram bowled well for one game etc etc, If their performing they need to stay. Similarly kamran ghulam has earned his fair shot as well. Shan is the first one that needs to be booted 100%.

 

[Markhor]

I remember a period where we had any three of Kamran Akmal, Abdul Razzaq, Shahid Afridi and Rana Naved rotating at #6-8 which was fairly decent.

Stat of the day - Rana Naved has a better ODI batting avg and SR than Rana Fahim Ashraf. Shows what a pathetic excuse of an all-rounder the latter was.

As mentioned, lower order players need lots of leeway as their role is inherently high risk. They also must be able to play ramps, scoops and other unconventional shots. These things must be coached at junior level.

 

[topspin]

How are you supposed to make sense with anyone who claims Abdul Razzaq is overrated?

The same guy who claims Suryakumar Yadav is overrated.

How can you make sense with them?

You can’t make sense of anyone who loves Misbah but hates his own (Imad).

 

[Rana]

Drop the lot.
Start from scratch all new young domestic players with proven good long REDBALL records and with high SR/AVG for T20
Give them a chance to make a name for themselves and make Pakistan cricket great again
It will take a few years, but Pakistan cricket will be far better for it.

Pakistan cricket was supposed to be great by now after Misbah scrapped the work Mickey and Sarfaraz were doing

Yeah no sorry we don’t trust people who supported his method in the first place

 

[Major]

I remember a period where we had any three of Kamran Akmal, Abdul Razzaq, Shahid Afridi and Rana Naved rotating at #6-8 which was fairly decent.

Stat of the day - Rana Naved has a better ODI batting avg and SR than Rana Fahim Ashraf. Shows what a pathetic excuse of an all-rounder the latter was.

As mentioned, lower order players need lots of leeway as their role is inherently high risk. They also must be able to play ramps, scoops and other unconventional shots. These things must be coached at junior level.

Rana Naveed was quite talentef eith the bat. When he made that 90ish score in the t20 semi final and got the stallions into the finals, the team managment should had given him more preference for the all-rounder spot than Razzaq.

But the problem with these three players was always their inconsistency.

I think it took me 9 years to realize that maybe try Kamran in the top order instead of lower

 

[W63L35]

Batting positions 7, 8 and 9 for Pakistan in ODIs.. by S/R.

 

[W63L35]

Batting positions 7, 8 and 9 for all teams in ODIs.. by S/R. (minimum runs: 1400)

 

[Major]

Batting positions 7, 8 and 9 for all teams in ODIs.. by S/R. (minimum runs: 1400)


View attachment 146138

Lance kluesener avg 50 at no.7 and no.8????

Holy shoot. And why doesnt this guy get mentioned that much or feature in all time 11s.

The fact that SA had him, pollock and kallis and still fail in icc events, is just astonishing. What a team SA were though

 

[W63L35]

Batting positions 7, 8 and 9 for major teams inT20Is.. by S/R. (minimum runs: 300)

 

[ads101]

We have solved the lower order problem who to bat at 7, three times in recent past.

Imad was perfoming at 7, and overrated or not it boggles my mind he was dropped out of the squad. Regardless of whether he was overrated or not, the numbers are too good to keep out of the side, and whatever combination of bowling and batting (T20s more his bowling, ODIs more his batting) it was good enough to keep his place. We dropped him thinking we'd get better, we didn't.

Shadab would be better suited to 8, but could probably play 7. Great fielder, and used to be a better bowler. All round makes his spot at 7 or 8. However there was a constant obsession to promote him up the order, make him into a test bat etc. Even in PSL started coming up the order. Neglected his bowling and is now neither here or there. Should have never been allowed to "make up" his bowling with batting.

Iftikhar while pretty terrible up the order did moderately well latter down. Wasn't great, but did better than the alternatives and was at least average. Again, pressure to move him up the order to get that big innings etc. This was the worst one out of the three in my opinion because at least the two two had other assets, and Imad just had a better batting record in ODIs overall.

Won't count it but I think Umar akmal could have done the job too at 6 or 7. There was just a hope for him to become a proper batsman like Kohli instead of accepting his role as a late order slogger. In the end he got worse and worse and exited the squad completely.

All were at least average. If not good in perhaps imad's case. It was enough for the position. However each time we ruined it by either dropping them first despite being average, when your near entire batting line up is failing. You drop the failing batsmen first, you don't drop a guy who you think is "overperforming" and will eventually fail. Or we were satisfied and tried to turn them into something great that they probably weren't' capable of.

You drop the deadwood first. Not the overrated/average players first. Some guys even want to drop them good performing players too. Dropping the worst of the bunch and backing the rest will gradually strengthen a line up, and give the rest more confidence to perform even if they aren't great. Then when those average guys become the worst in the line up and the others have improved, you can aim to get someone good in for them.

Instead we just drop everyone, and the guys we replace them with are even worse than the originals. And thus our batting line up continues to weaken.

 

[mominsaigol]

Pakistan cricket was supposed to be great by now after Misbah scrapped the work Mickey and Sarfaraz were doing

Yeah no sorry we don’t trust people who supported his method in the first place

Misbah affected the whiteball side. However Babar proceeded and now it's come to shan + ramiz + wasim kham + naqvi.

It's an entire operation really.

 

[BouncerGuy]

We still have not found any lower-order batter after Afridi or Razzaq. Iftikhar calls himself a lower order batter but he is a failure. Pakistan cricket is doomed.

 

[Misia]

Pakistan cricket was supposed to be great by now after Misbah scrapped the work Mickey and Sarfaraz were doing

Yeah no sorry we don’t trust people who supported his method in the first place

actuality we don't trust or like change for the better, were happy to stay stuck in the dark ages while the rest of the world powers forward (tortoise & hare) Once in blue moon wins

 

[Jazx]

Since 2003, if there is one dilemma Pakistan has faced, its the lower order hitter dilemma. There have been a list of players that have been tried at that position, and while a few had good purple patches, almost all of them failed to solve Pakistan's lower order hitting problem.

From 2003 till 2007, we tried Afridi, Rana Naveed, Shoaib Malik and Misbah. While these guys had there purple patches they would all fail to maintain their position in the lower order. Malik and Misbah would shift to middle, while Afridi was in and out with his patches.

From 2007 to 2015, we tried Afridi, Abdul Razzaq, Umar Gul and Umar Akmal. Razzaq would play a blinder of an innings in UAE against South Africa, but in the next 17 games, he would fail to get runs and was soon out of the team again. Afridi being Afridi sucked and maintain his spot somehow, while Umar Akmal couldn't either fulfill the role. During 2012, Umar Gul was discovered to hit a few high bouncers, but Gul was never developed as a proper allrounder

From 2015 to 2019, a new generation of players came in. These guys were Imad Wasim, Anwar Ali, Sarfraz himself, and yet they again failed and were soon out of the team due to their lack of hitting abilities.

From 2019 onwards came in the current lot, Asif Ali, Danish Aziz, Azam Khan, Khushdil Shah, Iftikhar Ahmed, Shadab Khan and Mohammad Nawaz. Yet again all these guys failed massively, with each player having a purple patch in few games.

Now the upcoming lot, Irfan Niazi, Jahandad Khan and Amir Jamal will be again given the task and we know how bad the success rate.

I dont know what was it like pre 2003, was it always as bad? Who has been Pakistan best lower order batter? Imran, Wasim?

As far as I watched cricket the best lower order hitters pre 2003 were Razzaq and Moin Khan for Pakistan

 

[Jazx]

where did i said that? Unless you have comprehension issues... Or dyslexia and mixed Afridi with Misbah.

You claiming Razzaq making an all time xi just for hitting at no. 7 is as an insult to Imran Khan and Wasim Akram.

Afridi was over rated, where did i said he was not? You are making alot of assumptions.

Afridi and Razzaq both were over rated, but in comparison, Afridi was the better one.

You are actually overrating Wasim as a batsman. Razzaq was way ahead then him in that department.

 

[Rana]

As far as I watched cricket the best lower order hitters pre 2003 were Razzaq and Moin Khan for Pakistan

1.Razzaq
2. Afridi
3. Malik
4. Kamran

These guys were more than decent as lower order hitters. Razzaq in his zone was one of the most dangerous players to bowl at in the world. Afridi wasn’t as consistent but his cameos could turn games, he had that power.

Guys who could have been good but not invested in properly:

1. Sohail Tanvir
2. Azhar Mahmood
3. Shoaib Akhtar (underrated, he was a good ball striker on his day)

 

[Cricket Warrior]

3. Shoaib Akhtar (underrated, he was a good ball striker on his day)

true.. infact most stylish hitter he was down the order... still remember his inning which he played against England in WC 2003.