How does the present-day Jasprit Bumrah compare with the likes of Wasim Akram and Waqar Younis?

Rajdeep · Tuesday at 11:08 PM

James said:
Bumrah is a good, sometimes a very good bowler but I don’t personally view him as being anywhere near the GOAT to be quite honest. I would rate Cummins and Starc ahead of him from this generation of bowlers alone, never mind going back to previous eras.

That is because Starc and Cummins are white and you have sub concious bias. Bumrah's stats are at the same level as Marshal, Mcgrath and Ambrose and better than likes of Wasim, Waqar, Steyn etc. You rating likes of Cummins and Starc ahead of him is not due to cricket reasons.

kron · Tuesday at 11:13 PM

James said:
Bumrah is a good, sometimes a very good bowler but I don’t personally view him as being anywhere near the GOAT to be quite honest. I would rate Cummins and Starc ahead of him from this generation of bowlers alone, never mind going back to previous eras.

lol at Starc and Cummins

Only one close to him is Rabada. Both quite similar but bumrah is slightly superior overall

kron · Tuesday at 11:13 PM

Imagine srinath next to bumrah

He would average better than Starc and be on the level of Hazlewood.

RexRex · Tuesday at 11:22 PM

Rajdeep said:
That is because Starc and Cummins are white and you have sub concious bias. Bumrah's stats are at the same level as Marshal, Mcgrath and Ambrose and better than likes of Wasim, Waqar, Steyn etc. You rating likes of Cummins and Starc ahead of him is not due to cricket reasons.

That is unfair to bring race into this lol.

Some legendary players don't register with certain fans for whatever reason. I've never got the hots for Shane Warne tbh despite his huge number of wickets. Probably because I've never seen him play well against India.

Rajdeep · Tuesday at 11:28 PM

RexRex said:
That is unfair to bring race into this lol.

Some legendary players don't register with certain fans for whatever reason. I've never got the hots for Shane Warne tbh despite his huge number of wickets. Probably because I've never seen him play well against India.

I know how it works...I live in this country. Its all sub concious mind you and not intentional.

Ab Fan · Wednesday at 1:38 AM

James said:
Bumrah is a good, sometimes a very good bowler but I don’t personally view him as being anywhere near the GOAT to be quite honest. I would rate Cummins and Starc ahead of him from this generation of bowlers alone, never mind going back to previous eras.

That’s nonsense. Starc is not even close. He has made a career of himself bashing SL and WI and doing well at home in pink ball games.

Excluding WI and SL and pink ball games, his bowling avg is 33. That’s how bad he is. You do the same for Bumrah and his bowling avg is 21.

Bowling records | Test matches | Cricinfo Statsguru | ESPNcricinfo.com

stats.espncricinfo.com

Bowling records | Test matches | Cricinfo Statsguru | ESPNcricinfo.com

stats.espncricinfo.com

There is no better criteria than looking at performance vs top teams. :inti

Ted123 · Wednesday at 1:59 AM

TheSultan said:
I’ve addressed this laughable argument before.

1. Waqar took 35 wickets in 6 tests vs Windies between 1990-1993 when West Indies were the best side in the world. Yes the gap was less than the 1980s but they were still the best side until 1995

2. New Zealand were not the 8th ranked side lol. They were better than India, SL and probably on par with England. Do I need to remind you that NZ drew 2 series vs Australia in the early 90s?

3. Waqar took 7 wickets in a match vs Australia in the 1994 test in Karachi that Pakistan won which was the series differentiator.

Now if he took 25 wickets In a series vs Zimbabwe in 1993, so what? It’s not as if he wasn’t performing elsewhere.

If you want to argue Bumrah is better than post 1996, past his peak Waqar then fine. I’d agree. But 1990-1994 Waqar was a different beast. Probably the greatest peak ever.

And as for your snide remark about Wasim and Waqar removing tailenders, maybe if Bumrah could do the same India would be 2-1 or even 3 up in this series.

Go and educate yourself boy and then try again.

I am educated enough to post my points but I am sure you certainly deserve to get over your nostalgia and have a reality check.

Between 1990-1993, look at the three bottom teams below- NZ, SL, Zim. SL and Zim were minnows till 1995 while NZ was barely better than them. Look at W/L record for teams above NZ and there is a clear difference between the bottom three teams and other top teams.

Team records | Test matches | Cricinfo Statsguru | ESPNcricinfo.com

stats.espncricinfo.com

Now, look at Waqar’s record vs the top 6 teams in his so called prime years between 1990-1993:-

Matches - 14
Wkts - 61
Avg - 23.95

Bowling records | Test matches | Cricinfo Statsguru | ESPNcricinfo.com

stats.espncricinfo.com

So, in his so called prime years, against good teams, he is well behind the likes of Ambrose, BA Reid and Bishop who average 18,19 and 19 respectively. He is also comfortably behind Wasim who average 21 during this period.

Nostalgia is all good but sometimes having prior knowledge is good before you demean anyone. Time for you to accept the reality.

Ted123 · Wednesday at 2:12 AM

Ab Fan said:
That’s nonsense. Starc is not even close. He has made a career of himself bashing SL and WI and doing well at home in pink ball games.

Excluding WI and SL and pink ball games, his bowling avg is 33. That’s how bad he is. You do the same for Bumrah and his bowling avg is 21.

Bowling records | Test matches | Cricinfo Statsguru | ESPNcricinfo.com

stats.espncricinfo.com

Bowling records | Test matches | Cricinfo Statsguru | ESPNcricinfo.com

stats.espncricinfo.com

There is no better criteria than looking at performance vs top teams.

Yes, when we take into consideration the performance vs non minnows or weaker nations in their respective era, Bumrah is in a different league to the likes of Starc or even Waqar for that matter.

kron · Wednesday at 2:12 AM

Ab Fan said:
That’s nonsense. Starc is not even close. He has made a career of himself bashing SL and WI and doing well at home in pink ball games.

Excluding WI and SL and pink ball games, his bowling avg is 33. That’s how bad he is. You do the same for Bumrah and his bowling avg is 21.

Bowling records | Test matches | Cricinfo Statsguru | ESPNcricinfo.com

stats.espncricinfo.com

Bowling records | Test matches | Cricinfo Statsguru | ESPNcricinfo.com

stats.espncricinfo.com

There is no better criteria than looking at performance vs top teams.

lol English media is already anointing him as a goat and here we have some noobs discussing whether he is better than Cummins and Starc rofl

But he is not the goat yet. Top 5/6 right now.

Need a series win/draw in England and one more in SA (win/draw)

Wasim Ghulam · Wednesday at 4:04 AM

RidiculousMan said:
Can we stop comparing Wasim with Bumrah. It's just ridiculous. I can't even with the commentators here defending Bumrah's position against Wasim.

There's a limit to bias. Those who are putting Bumrah ahead of Wasim are either retarded or delusional.

All Indians have to present is his average in test cricket lol Bumrah has better bowling average.. Sure.. on average he takes 5 wickets per game.. and his average is 4 Runs lower than Wasim.. Which means he gives 10 runs less than Wasim Akram in each innings .. a very huge difference that decides India’s Wins and losses

Test Matches are hardly won or lost with that margin

on the other Hand Wasim Averages 22 with Bat .. Bumrah 7.. So Wasim already made up for those extra 10 runs he conceded in his time

Ab Fan · Wednesday at 4:23 AM

kron said:
lol English media is already anointing him as a goat and here we have some noobs discussing whether he is better than Cummins and Starc rofl

But he is not the goat yet. Top 5/6 right now.

Need a series win/draw in England and one more in SA (win/draw)

English media shouldn’t be taken seriously. They praise Stokes every single time when he picks a wicket. On day 4, he failed with bat and picked a wicket of Akash Deep but next morning before start of Day 5, they were praising him that every time Stokes comes, he always makes things happen. No mention of how poor he has been with bat.

Bumrah is an ATG and at a Michael Holding/Joel Garner level as of today but over the next 2 years or so, he should go on to become a top 5 test bowler material. He has completed 3 tours to Australia, England and South Africa each and has already achieved a lot of success but let’s wait before putting him above the likes of Wasim or Imran. It is too much of pain for Pakistani fans to take.

mominsaigol · Wednesday at 4:27 AM

Scott Boland > Bumrah

Wasim Ghulam · Wednesday at 4:52 AM

Buffet said:
Bumrah in Asia: Avg 17 - SR 35
Bumrah outside Asia : 20 - SR 44

There is no may be and not outside Asia. Bumrah is simply way more destructive. It's not even close.

Some one can play less games in series and still have top 5 5-fers in wins playing away then talking about lack of impact is just missing the point. Bumrah has had way more impact than Wasim in 40-50 tests and counting.

View attachment 156078

Anderson has way more durability, Wasim took lots of wickets but you got to actually perform to be really in the discussion. Wasim was averaging 26-28 home and away both against good teams so entire point about hypothetical scenario of him winning games in long series is torturing the reality and not based on actual output of Wasim.

Impact Wise Bumrah Needs serious catch up

Bumrah,s 47 Tests.. India has already lost more matches
20 Won
23 Lost

Wasim took 211 wickets when Pak won in 41 Games he featured at average of 18.50 and SR 42

Bumrah Sits at 110 wickets in 20 Games at average of 14.5 and SR 32

Only thing going for him is better average. SR dnt matter in test matches with difference of 10 balls.. and Wasim Made up for higher bowling average with higher batting average . whatever he conceded extra whilw bowling , He made up with his bat. so talk about Impact

Wasim lost 27 tests in his entire career , Bumrah at halfway stage of Wasim’s career has already lost 23

even in lost Games , Wasim has better bowling record compared to Bumrah

mominsaigol · Wednesday at 5:18 AM

Wasim Ghulam said:
Impact Wise Bumrah Needs serious catch up

Bumrah,s 47 Tests.. India has already lost more matches
20 Won
23 Lost

Wasim took 211 wickets when Pak won in 41 Games he featured at average of 18.50 and SR 42

Bumrah Sits at 110 wickets in 20 Games at average of 14.5 and SR 32

Only thing going for him is better average. SR dnt matter in test matches with difference of 10 balls.. and Wasim Made up for higher bowling average with higher batting average . whatever he conceded extra whilw bowling , He made up with his bat. so talk about Impact

Wasim lost 27 tests in his entire career , Bumrah at halfway stage of Wasim’s career has already lost 23

even in lost Games , Wasim has better bowling record compared to Bumrah

Bumrah is nothing more then a stat padder at this point. I've noticed indian posters on this forumn live on cricinfo as all of their arguments come from its articles or its stats.

For example cricinfo has 2 rubbish articles on

A) Modern Tailenders > Previous era tailenders

For first part, At which angle do the likes of Bashir, Nathon Lyon, Abrar, Shaheen, Siraj, Bumrah, Boland etc etc give you the vibe of them being legendary super tailenders who can score super centuries?

Wasim Akram at no 8 and Shaun Pollock at no 8 are better batters then Pat Cummins who is the best tail ender of this era and the only one who isnt a total dunce.

Umar gul at no 9 is better then every single no 9 batsmen in this era excluding Mitchell Starc or close to it if you consider England and India cheesing it by playing allrounders at no 9 and calling em tailenders. Even Glenn Mcgrath, Brett lee and Jason Gillispie the batters are slightly superior to Bumrah, Shami and Siraj the batters.

All of this is just rubbish propaganda to support Bumrah > Wasim, Imran, Waqar by pretending that they stat padded by taking numerous tailender wickets and to cover up that bumrah somewhat struggles a bit with tailenders at times.

mominsaigol · Wednesday at 5:24 AM

Wasim Ghulam said:
All Indians have to present is his average in test cricket lol Bumrah has better bowling average.. Sure.. on average he takes 5 wickets per game.. and his average is 4 Runs lower than Wasim.. Which means he gives 10 runs less than Wasim Akram in each innings .. a very huge difference that decides India’s Wins and losses Test Matches are hardly won or lost with that margin

on the other Hand Wasim Averages 22 with Bat .. Bumrah 7.. So Wasim already made up for those extra 10 runs he conceded in his time

All Indians have to present is his average in test cricket lol Bumrah has better bowling average

No all indians have to change the goalpost.

@RexRex @jeeteshssaxena and @uppercut Words of wisdom.

A) Longetivity doesnt matter nor do no of wickets.

Me: Okay boland >. 16 avg bro

B) Boland sucks has a 48 avg vs England in 3 games

Me: Bumrah has a 45 avg vs NZ in a plethora of games including wtc 2021 which happened in england where he got tonked into oblivion. Otherwise boland has outperformed bumrah in every conditon :vk2

C) Lack of 10 fers and 45 avg vs NZ doesnt matter, Let boland play in all countries especially India which is the gold standard of test xricket pitches.

Me: Lack of countries doesnt matter, Let Bumrah get a 10 fer and fix his NZ avg which is the gold standard in cricket.

D) Bumrah is in the realm of Garner as they both have similar wicket tallies in similar number of games

Me: Boland is in the realm of Larwood as they both have a similar avg in their first 16 games :vk2

.

I can do this all day with these people

.

kron · Wednesday at 5:29 AM

Wasim Ghulam said:
Impact Wise Bumrah Needs serious catch up

Bumrah,s 47 Tests.. India has already lost more matches
20 Won
23 Lost

Wasim took 211 wickets when Pak won in 41 Games he featured at average of 18.50 and SR 42

Bumrah Sits at 110 wickets in 20 Games at average of 14.5 and SR 32

Only thing going for him is better average. SR dnt matter in test matches with difference of 10 balls.. and Wasim Made up for higher bowling average with higher batting average . whatever he conceded extra whilw bowling , He made up with his bat. so talk about Impact

Wasim lost 27 tests in his entire career , Bumrah at halfway stage of Wasim’s career has already lost 23

even in lost Games , Wasim has better bowling record compared to Bumrah

Except Wasim played lot of crap teams too.

Bumrah exclusively plays only tough teams

No easy teams to stat pad against

And no short tour games.

All 3 to 5 tests per series. Hardest any sub 3 tests.

Wasim Ghulam · Wednesday at 5:35 AM

mominsaigol said:
Bumrah is nothing more then a stat padder at this point. I've noticed indian posters on this forumn live on cricinfo as all of their arguments come from its articles or its stats.

For example cricinfo has 2 rubbish articles on

A) Modern Tailenders > Previous era tailenders

For first part, At which angle do the likes of Bashir, Nathon Lyon, Abrar, Shaheen, Siraj, Bumrah, Boland etc etc give you the vibe of them being legendary super tailenders who can score super centuries?

Wasim Akram at no 8 and Shaun Pollock at no 8 are better batters then Pat Cummins who is the best tail ender of this era and the only one who isnt a total dunce.

Umar gul at no 9 is better then every single no 9 batsmen in this era excluding Mitchell Starc or close to it if you consider England and India cheesing it by playing allrounders at no 9 and calling em tailenders. Even Glenn Mcgrath, Brett lee and Jason Gillispie the batters are slightly superior to Bumrah, Shami and Siraj the batters.

All of this is just rubbish propaganda to support Bumrah > Wasim, Imran, Waqar by pretending that they stat padded by taking numerous tailender wickets and to cover up that bumrah somewhat struggles a bit with tailenders at times.

i remember series Pak played in 2000 against Prime SL at home

First Test Colombo Pak was Struggling at 176/9 chasing Lanka’s 273 in First Innings. Wasim Scored 78 and Pak ended up with parity , Later on Dismantled Lanka with ball , Taking fifer .. it did nt end here , Pak was struggling 89/5 chasing 131 and Again Wasim scored 20 not out to win it . This is kind of impact Wasim produced which Bumrah can dream of.. icing on Cake , Wasim smashed 89 ball 100 in following test at gall

mominsaigol · Wednesday at 5:41 AM

kron said:
Except Wasim played lot of crap teams too.

Bumrah exclusively plays only tough teams

No easy teams to stat pad against

And no short tour games.

All 3 to 5 tests per series. Hardest any sub 3 tests.

Total Hogwash and another myth to hide his crap fitness.

Another propaganda to make it seem like Bumrah is some ambassador for his side and is just too good, hence stat padding vs Minnows is beneath him.

The truth is if he played against minnows his career likely would have already been over by now. He is the most unfit bowler I have ever witnessed. 36 year old Boland is 500x fitter then Bumrah will ever be.

It's come to the point that its a laughing stock. Playing a 5 match test series in a year + a few 2 to 3 match series peddled around with minnows is standard for top teams.

Please dont carry an agenda and just admit the absolute truth. Bumrah playing vs Minnows entails a good stat pad number followed by an embrassingly early end to his test cricket career.

Wasim Ghulam · Wednesday at 5:45 AM

kron said:
Bumrah exclusively plays only tough teams

and exclusively loses too

this crap teams argument hold no weight.. because he aint winning it for India.

Tough teams that Bumrah faces have Crap Batters

Crap teams like India in 90s had legends like Tendulkar and Dravid

best Batsmen Bumrah Faced
Joe Root ( Had better of him )
Steven Smith ( Beyond his prime )
Kane Williamson ( Did nt defeat him in NZ )

Look at Wasim’s List
Tendulkar
Dravid
Lara
Ponting
Steve Waug
Kallis
Arvind De Silva
Martin Crowe

Wasim Ghulam · Wednesday at 5:53 AM

mominsaigol said:
Total Hogwash and another myth to hide his crap fitness.

Another propaganda to make it seem like Bumrah is some ambassador for his side and is just too good, hence stat padding vs Minnows is beneath him.

The truth is if he played against minnows his career likely would have already been over by now. He is the most unfit bowler I have ever witnessed. 36 year old Boland is 500x fitter then Bumrah will ever be.

It's come to the point that its a laughing stock. Playing a 5 match test series in a year + a few 2 to 3 match series peddled around with minnows is standard for top teams.

Please dont carry an agenda and just admit the absolute truth. Bumrah playing vs Minnows entails a good stat pad number followed by an embrassingly early end to his test cricket career.

Did Wasim Ever loose to Nz at home 3-0? After loosing 2-0 , Bumrah decided its not worth the effort to loose 3rd one too at home

RidiculousMan · Wednesday at 5:56 AM

mominsaigol said:
Scott Boland > Bumrah

If we go by average rule then Boland is Bradman of bowling

Wasim Ghulam · Wednesday at 6:00 AM

RidiculousMan said:
If we go by average rule then Boland is Bradman of bowling

Scot Boland > Bumrah
Dale Steyn > Bumrah
Mitchel Stark > Bumrah
Pat Cummins and Hazelwood = Bumrah

mominsaigol · Wednesday at 6:01 AM

Wasim Ghulam said:
and exclusively loses too
this crap teams argument hold no weight.. because he aint winning it for India.

Tough teams that Bumrah faces have Crap Batters

Crap teams like India in 90s had legends like Tendulkar and Dravid

best Batsmen Bumrah Faced
Joe Root ( Had better of him )
Steven Smith ( Beyond his prime )
Kane Williamson ( Did nt defeat him in NZ )

Look at Wasim’s List
Tendulkar
Dravid
Lara
Ponting
Steve Waug
Kallis
Arvind De Silva
Martin Crowe

All 3 of these batters have had the better of Bumrah.

Smith scored 2 centuries against him in BGT. Infact it is thanks to Bumrah, Smith recovered from his 33 avg form slump

.

Williamson is honestly his Papi in test and so is All of NZ.

Root vs Bumrah has been an equal affair, not a one sided one. Root avg 31-32 vs Bumrah head to head after that century. While it is not good, it not bad especially when despite Bumrah playing vs Root for a majority of Root's career, it hasnt stopped Root from utterly slapping India around his baby.

Root has scored more then 7 centuries vs Bumrah India including a 170 under Bumrah's presence.

His 57 avg vs India is hilarious. He has butchered India even more then Steve Smith has. How do you let someone score 12 centuries against you, 3000 runs against you, 12 50's against you, 2 double centuries against you all while having Malcom Marshall at your disposal

.

mominsaigol · Wednesday at 6:04 AM

RidiculousMan said:
If we go by average rule then Boland is Bradman of bowling

Boland has had an extremely unlucky test career. Had he been given 70-100 test games he would be retiring as the greatest bowler in SENA conditons excluding England Bazzball roads.

England only recently went back to spicy pitches.

Overseas he may have struggled a bit tbf.

RidiculousMan · Wednesday at 6:36 AM

mominsaigol said:
Boland has had an extremely unlucky test career. Had he been given 70-100 test games he would be retiring as the greatest bowler in SENA conditons excluding England Bazzball roads.

England only recently went back to spicy pitches.

Overseas he may have struggled a bit tbf.

I want to see him bowl on phattas of Pindi

kron · Wednesday at 6:43 AM

mominsaigol said:
Total Hogwash and another myth to hide his crap fitness.

Another propaganda to make it seem like Bumrah is some ambassador for his side and is just too good, hence stat padding vs Minnows is beneath him.

The truth is if he played against minnows his career likely would have already been over by now. He is the most unfit bowler I have ever witnessed. 36 year old Boland is 500x fitter then Bumrah will ever be.

It's come to the point that its a laughing stock. Playing a 5 match test series in a year + a few 2 to 3 match series peddled around with minnows is standard for top teams.

Please dont carry an agenda and just admit the absolute truth. Bumrah playing vs Minnows entails a good stat pad number followed by an embrassingly early end to his test cricket career.

Stats impact and performance plus fear factor all point to bumrah being better than Wasim.

This is coming from someone who doesn’t rate players unless backed by performance. I don’t follow stats alone. I don’t worship any player etc like most desi.

I have seen both at their peaks and no Wasim is no way better than bumrah.

I agree his fitness needs improving

But just remember he has no support now

Shami, ishant are no longer available. Siraj is hit or miss.

So he has no support now unlike in the 2015 to 2021 period where the attack was lethal.

Wasim bhai had Waqar and immy at one point although he was declining steadily when Wasim debuted.

You need a partner in crime

But what can be argue is India won more without him than with in recent times. Is the star culture ruining things again? Perhaps. Will be funny if India win 4 th test without him.

Then yes a case needs to be made against bumrah.

But batting let us down because of some silly run out and dropped chances in both first test and 3 rd test.

kron · Wednesday at 6:44 AM

Wasim Ghulam said:
and exclusively loses too
this crap teams argument hold no weight.. because he aint winning it for India.

Tough teams that Bumrah faces have Crap Batters

Crap teams like India in 90s had legends like Tendulkar and Dravid

best Batsmen Bumrah Faced
Joe Root ( Had better of him )
Steven Smith ( Beyond his prime )
Kane Williamson ( Did nt defeat him in NZ )

Look at Wasim’s List
Tendulkar
Dravid
Lara
Ponting
Steve Waug
Kallis
Arvind De Silva
Martin Crowe

All just names

Kalis wasn’t in his prime in 90s

And neither was Ponting
Dravid wasn’t in his prime till 2000 plus

And da Silva lmao

Ok

kron · Wednesday at 6:51 AM

mominsaigol said:
All 3 of these batters have had the better of Bumrah.

Smith scored 2 centuries against him in BGT. Infact it is thanks to Bumrah, Smith recovered from his 33 avg form slump .

Williamson is honestly his Papi in test and so is All of NZ.

Root vs Bumrah has been an equal affair, not a one sided one. Root avg 31-32 vs Bumrah head to head after that century. While it is not good, it not bad especially when despite Bumrah playing vs Root for a majority of Root's career, it hasnt stopped Root from utterly slapping India around his baby.

Root has scored more then 7 centuries vs Bumrah India including a 170 under Bumrah's presence.

His 57 avg vs India is hilarious. He has butchered India even more then Steve Smith has. How do you let someone score 12 centuries against you, 3000 runs against you, 12 50's against you, 2 double centuries against you all while having Malcom Marshall at your disposal .

Root averages like 45 vs India in India in India

His 57 was mostly cause of home performances on flat wickets but he is an elite player though

kron · Wednesday at 6:53 AM

RidiculousMan said:
I want to see him bowl on phattas of Pindi

He would be good there
Because even Cummins did well iirc

Bumrah with reverse and those tampered balls of 90s would be deadly

Like Waqar but on steroids

kron · Wednesday at 6:54 AM

mominsaigol said:
Boland has had an extremely unlucky test career. Had he been given 70-100 test games he would be retiring as the greatest bowler in SENA conditons excluding England Bazzball roads.

England only recently went back to spicy pitches.

Overseas he may have struggled a bit tbf.

Boland is really good I agree

Not sure what his average would be if he playmates everywhere but would be like 26 27 ish

Quality bowler

He should have played over Starc but Starc pace is what Aus like. So sadly he couldn’t get opportunities.

He even perimeter better than Hazlewood many times.

kron · Wednesday at 6:55 AM

Wasim Ghulam said:
Did Wasim Ever loose to Nz at home 3-0? After loosing 2-0 , Bumrah decided its not worth the effort to loose 3rd one too at home

Wasim lost to zimboks at home

kron · Wednesday at 6:57 AM

And root averages 28.4 vs bumrah anything under 38 ish is terrible

In tests

@mominsaigol

mominsaigol · Wednesday at 7:04 AM

kron said:
Root averages like 45 vs India in India in India

His 57 was mostly cause of home performances on flat wickets but he is an elite player though

Avg of 45 due to dustbowls and spin. Not pace

Vikram1989 · Wednesday at 7:09 AM

Wasim Ghulam said:
Did Wasim Ever loose to Nz at home 3-0? After loosing 2-0 , Bumrah decided its not worth the effort to loose 3rd one too at home

That's better than akram's withdrawal from the test due to COLD while trailing 1-0 against the Aussies. Who on the earth will do it .

‘Wow, we can actually win here without Warnie’: Inside Australia’s 1998 Pakistan series win

How Australia rebounded from defeat in India and the loss of Shane Warne to win in Pakistan for the only time in 62 years.

www.smh.com.au

Vikram1989 · Wednesday at 7:13 AM

kron said:
Wasim lost to zimboks at home

He lost to zimbabwe, sa , Aussies, eng at home .

Ab Fan · Wednesday at 7:16 AM

Ted123 said:
I am educated enough to post my points but I am sure you certainly deserve to get over your nostalgia and have a reality check.

Between 1990-1993, look at the three bottom teams below- NZ, SL, Zim. SL and Zim were minnows till 1995 while NZ was barely better than them. Look at W/L record for teams above NZ and there is a clear difference between the bottom three teams and other top teams.

Team records | Test matches | Cricinfo Statsguru | ESPNcricinfo.com

stats.espncricinfo.com

Now, look at Waqar’s record vs the top 6 teams in his so called prime years between 1990-1993:-

Matches - 14
Wkts - 61
Avg - 23.95

Bowling records | Test matches | Cricinfo Statsguru | ESPNcricinfo.com

stats.espncricinfo.com

So, in his so called prime years, against good teams, he is well behind the likes of Ambrose, BA Reid and Bishop who average 18,19 and 19 respectively. He is also comfortably behind Wasim who average 21 during this period.

Nostalgia is all good but sometimes having prior knowledge is good before you demean anyone. Time for you to accept the reality.

Damn, that’s some comeback. :wa

kron · Wednesday at 7:22 AM

mominsaigol said:
Avg of 45 due to dustbowls and spin. Not pace

He got pretty damn flat wickets where he stat padded even in India and I would know because I watched every series

The 2016 one where England got pounded so bad 4 0, he scored useless century after century on flat beds. Post that he only averaged under 40. Struggle on turning pitches in general

But he is still one of the best ever

Tenda also struggled big time vs extreme turn

Only smith was god everywhere

kron · Wednesday at 7:23 AM

Vikram1989 said:
He lost to zimbabwe, sa , Aussies, eng at home .

I can do this all day lol
I have had enough of this nonsense anyway.

I don’t want to disrespect Wasim. Waqar no one even puts him in the convo anyway.

Immy khan though is the only one equal to bumrah but impact wise booms is still better I feel. But case can be made for both. Tampered balls coke bottle allegations though makes me hesitate.

Technics 1210 · Wednesday at 8:07 AM

India has a habit of promoting serial losers as GOATS. Bumrah, Tendulkar et al. Perstintently failing to win matches for India but in the process stat pad their way to cult goatness.

In the end Akram will remain the greatest left arm pacer in Cricket. Akram makes it on most all time XI, while Bumrah can even make it to 5 tests.

Waqar Younis. If any of these Gen Z / TikTok generation cult members had watched him before his back injury, they'd all be applying for a Pakistan citizenship. He absence from the WC1992 changed the odds to the point the Aussie captain stated - 99% of our worries are over.

Bumrah's greats however if you want to learn how to skip, hop, and jump your way to Olympic gold.

mominsaigol · Wednesday at 9:26 AM

kron said:
I can do this all day lol
I have had enough of this nonsense anyway.

I don’t want to disrespect Wasim. Waqar no one even puts him in the convo anyway.

Immy khan though is the only one equal to bumrah but impact wise booms is still better I feel. But case can be made for both. Tampered balls coke bottle allegations though makes me hesitate.

Your expertise are in test bowling i will 100% admit that. Fantastic poster despite our difference in opinion.

Their are so many educated and well versed Indian posters on this forumn that bring a wealth of experience and breathe of fresh air into conversations.

Too bad they are all swept under the rug because the

Gang becomes the main focal point of the story.

Romali_rotti · Wednesday at 10:05 AM

Never rated Waqar in test, sucked against Aus, sucked against India, just bare decent against South Africa.

Vs all the others and minnows, bro was hulk....

kron · Wednesday at 10:37 AM

mominsaigol said:
Your expertise are in test bowling i will 100% admit that. Fantastic poster despite our difference in opinion.

Their are so many educated and well versed Indian posters on this forumn that bring a wealth of experience and breathe of fresh air into conversations.

Too bad they are all swept under the rug because the Gang becomes the main focal point of the story.

Don’t get me wrong if bumrah starts skipping tests unless it’s for workload management and under performs in key games etc I will be the first to call him out hard.

One thing I will say is that Asian fast bowlers should be allowed leeway cause they bowl on dead pitches

TheSultan · Wednesday at 11:35 AM

Ted123 said:
I am educated enough to post my points but I am sure you certainly deserve to get over your nostalgia and have a reality check.

Between 1990-1993, look at the three bottom teams below- NZ, SL, Zim. SL and Zim were minnows till 1995 while NZ was barely better than them. Look at W/L record for teams above NZ and there is a clear difference between the bottom three teams and other top teams.

Team records | Test matches | Cricinfo Statsguru | ESPNcricinfo.com

stats.espncricinfo.com

Now, look at Waqar’s record vs the top 6 teams in his so called prime years between 1990-1993:-

Matches - 14
Wkts - 61
Avg - 23.95

Bowling records | Test matches | Cricinfo Statsguru | ESPNcricinfo.com

stats.espncricinfo.com

So, in his so called prime years, against good teams, he is well behind the likes of Ambrose, BA Reid and Bishop who average 18,19 and 19 respectively. He is also comfortably behind Wasim who average 21 during this period.

Nostalgia is all good but sometimes having prior knowledge is good before you demean anyone. Time for you to accept the reality.

Lol ok so removing New Zealand just for your own purposes! You don’t play silly nerdy stats games with me and get away with it boy.

What was so bad about New Zealand in the early 90s

Drew vs Australia one-off test 1989/90

Beat India in New Zealand 1989/90

Beat Australia one-off test 1989/90

Lost 1-0 to England in 1990 but had the upper hand in the 2nd test. Close series. By contrast India also lost 1-0 vs England in 1990

Lost 3-0 to Pakistan (is this New Zealand being really bad or Pakistan really good led by waqar’s 29 wickets in 3 tests?)

Include New Zealand in the list or go away and cry on your screen and dream up more nonsense

Devadwal · Wednesday at 11:54 AM

I see some of idiots recently compared Bumrah to Starc or any Australia bowler.

Jasprit Bumrah Who Played 12 Tests in AUS
has won (2 M.O.M + 1 M.O.S)

Mitchell Starc Who Played 55 Tests in AUS
has Won (2 M.O.M + 0 M.O.S)

For one, it's home. For the other, it's away

Starc just picked up his 'Third' away Test five-wicket haul in the last 𝟵 𝘆𝗲𝗮𝗿𝘀 and that too against WI

Bumrah, on the other hand, has taken 'Five' such hauls in the last 𝟴 𝗺𝗼𝗻𝘁𝗵𝘀 alone.

And has better Avg in all the Countries.
Yet suddenly, comparisons in Test cricket have started.

In ICC Tournaments

Jasprit Bumrah (5 M.O.M + 1 M.O.S)
Mitchell Starc (1 M.O.M + 1 M.O.S)

Include Starc + Hazlewood + Cummins
Still (4 M.O.M + 1 M.O.S)

:kp

Romali_rotti · Wednesday at 12:14 PM

Devadwal said:
I see some of idiots recently compared Bumrah to Starc or any Australia bowler.

Jasprit Bumrah Who Played 12 Tests in AUS
has won (2 M.O.M + 1 M.O.S)

Mitchell Starc Who Played 55 Tests in AUS
has Won (2 M.O.M + 0 M.O.S)

For one, it's home. For the other, it's away

Starc just picked up his 'Third' away Test five-wicket haul in the last 𝟵 𝘆𝗲𝗮𝗿𝘀 and that too against WI

Bumrah, on the other hand, has taken 'Five' such hauls in the last 𝟴 𝗺𝗼𝗻𝘁𝗵𝘀 alone.

And has better Avg in all the Countries.
Yet suddenly, comparisons in Test cricket have started.

In ICC Tournaments

Jasprit Bumrah (5 M.O.M + 1 M.O.S)
Mitchell Starc (1 M.O.M + 1 M.O.S)

Include Starc + Hazlewood + Cummins
Still (4 M.O.M + 1 M.O.S)

Yeah but you dealing with guys that claim Jamie Smith is the greatest wickie bats since Gilchrist, can't expect common sense to pave the way

Ahmed216 · Wednesday at 1:13 PM

If you literally walk and skip to the crease and bowl with a dodgy action it's lot easier to be accurate, but it comes with poor fitness as fast bowler.

I searched for the number of balls bowled by Wasim Waqar and Bumrah in FC, List-A and T20 cricket alongwith the total wickets.

-------------(balls) - (wickets)
Wasim - 80110 , 1931
Waqar - 59149 , 1635
Bumrah - 25870, 823

Wasim and Waqar were biomechanically perfect workhorses with beautiful run-up and action.

Don't think Bumrah has more than 10k balls left in him that too if he prolongs his career by sticking to gilli danda cricket where he has picked 313 wickets, a large share of his total tally.

Wasim Ghulam · Wednesday at 1:43 PM

Vikram1989 said:
He lost to zimbabwe, sa , Aussies, eng at home .

you really want to talk about Zimb series?

Zim only won one test.. second test was rain effected. only 200 overs possible.. Third one abandoned

PS zimb of 98 were no push overs. NZ beat India 3-0 .. cant really equate that one test win of Zim over Pak and they got lucky to win series

Wasim Ghulam · Wednesday at 1:57 PM

kron said:
I can do this all day lol
I have had enough of this nonsense anyway.

I don’t want to disrespect Wasim. Waqar no one even puts him in the convo anyway.

Immy khan though is the only one equal to bumrah but impact wise booms is still better I feel. But case can be made for both. Tampered balls coke bottle allegations though makes me hesitate.

no you aint doing this all day

Zim was extremely lucky to win series against Pak

They Trailed 150 plus in second Test. Only 200 overs were possible over course of entire test. Final day completely rained off to add with

3rd was abandoned due to persistent fog in Faislabad in Dec .. Toss could nt happen

NZ beat India 3-0 without needing any luck.. and your Malcom Marshall aka Bumrah could nt save it

Technics 1210 · Wednesday at 2:06 PM

Bumrah has more no-balls vs. 2Ws, AND is on par with Mohammed Amir - Go figure! A product of the IPL.

Bumrah is mutton dressed as lamb - not a goat!

mominsaigol · Wednesday at 2:07 PM

Wasim Ghulam said:
no you aint doing this all day

Zim was extremely lucky to win series against Pak

They Trailed 150 plus in second Test. Only 200 overs were possible over course of entire test. Final day completely rained off to add with

3rd was abandoned due to persistent fog in Faislabad in Dec .. Toss could nt happen

NZ beat India 3-0 without needing any luck.. and your Malcom Marshall aka Bumrah could nt save it

@uppercut Stated to me that he can do this all day.

I responded once and he has effectively been executed. Too bad

gang knows how to rise from the dead.

Tbf @kron is a very good poster though. I disagree with him alot but atleast he argues his points well, the others are new levels of stupid.

Rajdeep · Wednesday at 2:08 PM

Ahmed216 said:
If you literally walk and skip to the crease and bowl with a dodgy action it's lot easier to be accurate, but it comes with poor fitness as fast bowler.

I searched for the number of balls bowled by Wasim Waqar and Bumrah in FC, List-A and T20 cricket alongwith the total wickets.

-------------(balls) - (wickets)
Wasim - 80110 , 1931
Waqar - 59149 , 1635
Bumrah - 25870, 823

Wasim and Waqar were biomechanically perfect workhorses with beautiful run-up and action.

Don't think Bumrah has more than 10k balls left in him that too if he prolongs his career by sticking to gilli danda cricket where he has picked 313 wickets, a large share of his total tally.

First time I am reading someone clubbing number of balls bowled in FC Cricket and List A to justify. It is a case of Pak fans are losing the arguement.

@Devadwal

:rp

kron · Wednesday at 2:11 PM

Wasim Ghulam said:
no you aint doing this all day

Zim was extremely lucky to win series against Pak

They Trailed 150 plus in second Test. Only 200 overs were possible over course of entire test. Final day completely rained off to add with

3rd was abandoned due to persistent fog in Faislabad in Dec .. Toss could nt happen

NZ beat India 3-0 without needing any luck.. and your Malcom Marshall aka Bumrah could nt save it

What about home losses to SA
Aus and nz too?

Regardless they lost to zimboks???
So?
I don’t see any debate here

mominsaigol · Wednesday at 2:31 PM

Rajdeep said:
First time I am reading someone clubbing number of balls bowled in FC Cricket and List A to justify. It is a case of Pak fans are losing the arguement.

@Devadwal

Don't you know how @Devadwal operates? Cowards like him will only respond when he has the perfect opportunity to and even then he'll get owned in some fashion.

For example he responded to me by sarcastically stating "We are losing by 10 wickets bro and then by stating that Only rain can save England in the 1st test.

Well he was onpy half right. Only rain saved India from a humiliating 10 wicket defeat. Rain converted it into 5 wickets. :vk2

.

Wasim Ghulam · Wednesday at 2:31 PM

kron said:
All just names

Kalis wasn’t in his prime in 90s

And neither was Ponting
Dravid wasn’t in his prime till 2000 plus

And da Silva lmao

Ok

Dravid set up in Chennai was classic. We love it til this day.. Two In Swingers and one leathal outswing .. Wall was broken.. You do not have to play down own legends

I named few.. Batting quality in 90s in Test Cricket was generally better than whats available now. T20 cricket has changed it. 90s Test batters were more resillient. So i named legends.. there is list of better test batters wasim bowled to.. Zim dnt have niel Johnson , Andy flower anymore

Wasim Dismissed Lara 9 times in test cricket. I cant anyone even worth licking boots of Lara from current Test Batters. Not even Joe Root

Devadwal · Wednesday at 2:39 PM

Rajdeep said:
First time I am reading someone clubbing number of balls bowled in FC Cricket and List A to justify. It is a case of Pak fans are losing the arguement.

@Devadwal

Bumrah has given sleepless night to Pakistan bowler's knowing he is best Pacer from Asia in the history of cricket. :kp

kron · Wednesday at 2:40 PM

Wasim Ghulam said:
no you aint doing this all day

Zim was extremely lucky to win series against Pak

They Trailed 150 plus in second Test. Only 200 overs were possible over course of entire test. Final day completely rained off to add with

3rd was abandoned due to persistent fog in Faislabad in Dec .. Toss could nt happen

NZ beat India 3-0 without needing any luck.. and your Malcom Marshall aka Bumrah could nt save it

Also India had no shami for the series
Nz killer
And shreyas Iyer who always smashed nz in all formats

Last time he smashed them too in India

So nz never beat full strength India

And we had bozos like kohli and Rohit who were past it

kron · Wednesday at 2:41 PM

Wasim Ghulam said:
Dravid set up in Chennai was classic. We love it til this day.. Two In Swingers and one leathal outswing .. Wall was broken.. You do not have to play down own legends

I named few.. Batting quality in 90s in Test Cricket was generally better than whats available now. T20 cricket has changed it. 90s Test batters were more resillient. So i named legends.. there is list of better test batters wasim bowled to.. Zim dnt have niel Johnson , Andy flower anymore

Wasim Dismissed Lara 9 times in test cricket. I cant anyone even worth licking boots of Lara from current Test Batters. Not even Joe Root

Batting quality wasn’t better
Overall

It was better in terms of defensive ability

Shot making ability and aggressive stroke play is better in modern era though

Also it was bowler friendly era in 90s

So you can’t have it both ways

Either batting was too good or bowling was too good which make vice versa untrue.

Ahmed216 · Wednesday at 2:56 PM

Rajdeep said:
First time I am reading someone clubbing number of balls bowled in FC Cricket and List A to justify. It is a case of Pak fans are losing the arguement.

@Devadwal

You understandably missed my point about fitness being vital to sustainable performances over a long period of time.

In current England series alone Bumrah has struggled come the second innings and it has cost India.

Here's an example of a fit fast bowler producing an epic spell in second innings. 22 overs on the trot to defend 130.

https://www.espncricinfo.com/series/pakistan-tour-of-new-zealand-1992-93-61505/new-zealand-vs-pakistan-only-test-63597/full-scorecard

Wasim promised captain Miandad he'll not stop until NZ are all-out.

mominsaigol · Wednesday at 3:09 PM

Here's what I dont understand about Indian Arguments.

1) They claim Kohli struggled in test cricket due to him having to bat in a bowling era( these are actually arguments from indian posters on PP)

Yet that same logic gets thrown away for Joe root who @Devadwal calls a stat padder? Stat padder in a seemingly bowling friendly era? :rosco

2) They claim Bumrah Odi record is below the likes of Wasim'l because he is bowling in a batting friendly 2 new ball era but that same logic isnt applicable for test cricket where he gets easier pitches :vk2

.

3) For example despite using the argument that Ambrose never got sachin out, Ambrose was 35 and those wickets he played on, 4 out of 5 test games were drawn?

In this era drawing 4 out of 5 test games is impossible. Literally impossible now, unless a side curates a dead track which wont happen unless England or Pakistan curate.

But England will ensure a result lol. And most sides dont visit Pakistan all too often.

Their even more ridiculous arguments. It is a fact that Sachin doesnt have a single memorable test innings. He onpy performed if the top and middle order kicked off. Wisden also admits this and doesnt rank a single one of his innings as a goat.

Yet Joe root along with Archer has won dozens of games for him team including the last one but according to @jeeteshssaxena Brydon Carse won it with his beautiful 1 run in the 2nd innings

.

How many times will you lot keep changing goal posts upon goalposts?

Ahmed216 · Wednesday at 3:11 PM

mominsaigol said:
Here's what I dont understand about Indian Arguments.

1) They claim Kohli struggled in test cricket due to him having to bat in a bowling era( these are actually arguments from indian posters on PP)

Yet that same logic gets thrown away for Joe root who @Devadwal calls a stat padder? Stat padder in a seemingly bowling friendly era?

2) They claim Bumrah Odi record is below the likes of Wasim'l because he is bowling in a batting friendly 2 new ball era but that same logic isnt applicable for test cricket where he gets easier pitches .

3) For example despite using the argument that Ambrose never got sachin out, Ambrose was 35 and those wickets he played on, 4 out of 5 test games were drawn?

In this era drawing 4 out of 5 test games is impossible. Literally impossible now, unless a side curates a dead track which wont happen unless England or Pakistan curate.

But England will ensure a result lol. And most sides dont visit Pakistan all too often.

Their even more ridiculous arguments. It is a fact that Sachin doesnt have a single memorable test innings. He onpy performed if the top and middle order kicked off. Wisden also admits this and doesnt rank a single one of his innings as a goat.

Yet Joe root along with Archer has won dozens of games for him team including the last one but according to @jeeteshssaxena Brydon Carse won it with his beautiful 1 run in the 2nd innings .

How many times will you lot keep changing goal posts upon goalposts?

How does the present-day Jasprit Bumrah compare with the likes of Wasim Akram and Waqar Younis?

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