How good a batsman would Kumar Sangakkara have been if he hadn't been burdened with the gloves?

[Snatch]

It's a question which needs to be pondered.

His average near on 58 in Test cricket, with 38 Hundreds in 131 matches is insane enough, but when you consider he averaged just 40 when burdened with the wicket keeping gloves in almost 50 tests, and a staggering 66 when playing as a specialist batsman, which he did in 86 tests.

It does make you wonder what his Test batting record would have looked like without the burden of the gloves. For me there's no good reason he couldn't have finished up with an average around 61 and about 43 Test hundreds in those 131 matches.

Had he finished with a record like that, you would have to think he'd be held ahead of the other great Test batsmen of the last 25 years, Lara, Ponting, Tendulkar & Kallis.

Thoughts on what his Test record could have finished up looking like had he no been burdened with keeping in those 48 Tests?

 

[czar]

Ahead of Tendulkar

 

[Slog]

He's already talked by many of as being in the league of the batsmen you named

 

[DRsohail]

he is already ahead of ponting and neck to neck with lara ..

 

[Bhaijaan]

Its all hypothetical. Wicket keeping has its immense advantages too given that the keeper knows exactly how the pitch is behaving and how the conditions are affecting game play having spent all the time seeing opposition batsmen from the best and the closest view on the field.

Also as far a physical exertion is concerned, case could be made while keeping is tough on the back but they don't have to run around like other fielders either.

 

[Hitman]

he is already ahead of ponting and neck to neck with lara ..

Come on, yaar. We all respect him but he is nowhere as great as Lara.

 

[Mamoon]

He is undoubtedly an ATG and the third best Asian batsman after Tendulkar and Gavaskar. That's good enough praise I think.

 

[Hitman]

He is undoubtedly an ATG and the third best Asian batsman after Tendulkar and Gavaskar. That's good enough praise I think.

Would you rate him ahead of Miandad?

 

[Mamoon]

Would you rate him ahead of Miandad?

Yes. He overtook both Miandad and Dravid in the last few years of his career, and he could have matched Tendulkar and Gavaskar had he been as good in the 2000 era as he was in the 2010 era. He was a great player from 2000 to 2010, but what he did from 2010 to 2015 across all formats was the stuff of gods.

 

[DRsohail]

Come on, yaar. We all respect him but he is nowhere as great as Lara.

he is talking in the cotext of the record otherwise lara is ahead we all know....but kallis and ponting are not ahed record and ability wise.....

 

[Mamoon]

he is talking in the cotext of the record otherwise lara is ahead we all know....but kallis and ponting are not ahed record and ability wise.....

Not Kallis but Ponting is well ahead ability wise. He was a ferocious player who could murder any bowling attack. Sangakkara though was far better against spin and also had a greater appetite for long innings, although it had a lot to do with Ponting's attacking nature.

 

[Ab Fan]

He is a bonafide ATG if you consider he had to keep too.

Dravid and Kallis although were as good or better batsmen still IMO as they were more all round players than Sanga.

Sanga not doing well in India does go against him.

 

[Haz95]

Sangakkara was the Steve Smith of the 2010-15 era.

 

[Hasan123]

I think if he had been as consistent at start of his career as he was in his last few years he would have been up there with Sachin and Lara.

He is behind Viv, Lara,Sachin,etc. He gets enough praise. A bonafide atg for me.

 

[DRsohail]

Not Kallis but Ponting is well ahead ability wise. He was a ferocious player who could murder any bowling attack. Sangakkara though was far better against spin and also had a greater appetite for long innings, although it had a lot to do with Ponting's attacking nature.

that comes to personal liking and disliking ....

 

[dildildalwalla]

He would not have made the team without his keeping in the first place. Its easy to forget that he was not thought of as a truly great batsman until about 06/07, maybe even later. So I'm not sure if his batting would have been enough for him to be in the team in 2000 when he madeh is debut.

 

[Chrish]

To me if any modern day player plays 130 or more tests (arbitrary number I know) and averages 65 with balanced home vs away performances, I would be comfortable with considering him as good as or perhaps even better than Bradman

 

[Shutdown Corner]

Ahead of Tendulkar

Not as far fecthed as it sounds if you perform a detailed analysis of overall batsmanship across several parameters.

Sanga didn't have a 1 billion-man hype machine and mega bucks to flood the media with it.

 

[Shutdown Corner]

Its all hypothetical. Wicket keeping has its immense advantages too given that the keeper knows exactly how the pitch is behaving and how the conditions are affecting game play having spent all the time seeing opposition batsmen from the best and the closest view on the field.

Also as far a physical exertion is concerned, case could be made while keeping is tough on the back but they don't have to run around like other fielders either.

Most top order batsmen field at slips and get a good view of how the pitch is behaving. Plus that WK advantage is not present in 1st innings.

 

[Buffet]

Yes. He overtook both Miandad and Dravid in the last few years of his career, and he could have matched Tendulkar and Gavaskar had he been as good in the 2000 era as he was in the 2010 era. He was a great player from 2000 to 2010, but what he did from 2010 to 2015 across all formats was the stuff of gods.

Test format in this period against 5 better bowling units,

Against SA - 35
Against Eng - 40
Against Aus - 46
Against NZ - 33
Against Pak - 72

Out of these 5 teams, only team he scored heavily here is against Pakistan, but he has always scored against Pakistan. He was impressive in ODI format in this period. In the test format, he was impressive in earlier period.

 

[Bilal7]

Test format in this period against 5 better bowling units,

Against SA - 35
Against Eng - 40
Against Aus - 46
Against NZ - 33
Against Pak - 72

Out of these 5 teams, only team he scored heavily here is against Pakistan, but he has always scored against Pakistan. He was impressive in ODI format in this period. In the test format, he was impressive in earlier period.

No, you actually had to see him bat to know that he averaged 50+ against all those teams. #Don'tBelieveInStats

I suspect a big chunk of that 66 average has to do with him playing a lot of games against minnows while he wasn't keeping. Also, these sort of questions don't really make sense. What would happen if Sanga had to play all his home games in a foreign country for example? What would happen if he suffered a debilitating injury like Waqar, Imran, Sachin and Clarke? What if, what if?

 

[Buffet]

No, you actually had to see him bat to know that he averaged 50+ against all those teams. #Don'tBelieveInStats

I suspect a big chunk of that 66 average has to do with him playing a lot of games against minnows while he wasn't keeping. Also, these sort of questions don't really make sense. What would happen if Sanga had to play all his home games in a foreign country for example? What would happen if he suffered a debilitating injury like Waqar, Imran, Sachin and Clarke? What if, what if?

Well, I can't speculate all those hypothetical, but I don't understand how posters keep saying that he was performing extremely well in all formats in 2010-2015 when compared to earlier periods.

He was ordinary in ODI and gun in test earlier. His game in ODI went up in 2010-2015 , but his test batting went down. It won't be visible in aggregate average , but if you look at each opposition then it's visible. Anyway, an ATG batsman for me, but many posters are confusing ODI with tests in 2010-2015 period when it comes to output by Sanga.

 

[Haz95]

Well, I can't speculate all those hypothetical, but I don't understand how posters keep saying that he was performing extremely well in all formats in 2010-2015 when compared to earlier periods.

He was ordinary in ODI and gun in test earlier. His game in ODI went up in 2010-2015 , but his test batting went down. It won't be visible in aggregate average , but if you look at each opposition then it's visible. Anyway, an ATG batsman for me, but many posters are confusing ODI with tests in 2010-2015 period when it comes to output by Sanga.

Agreed. I was talking about ODIs where he was dominating the world cup. As a test batsman, I think people overrated him a bit. But he was among the top 5 batsman for most his career so that does allow him to edge it into the ATG tier.

 

[Buffet]

Agreed. I was talking about ODIs where he was dominating the world cup. As a test batsman, I think people overrated him a bit. But he was among the top 5 batsman for most his career so that does allow him to edge it into the ATG tier.

That sounds fair enough.

 

[Haz95]

That sounds fair enough.

Do you find it a coincidence that he only became brutal in ODIs once wickets generally got flatter and ODIs became slog fests or do you think he just transformed as a batsman?

 

[Sachin136]

Not as far fecthed as it sounds if you perform a detailed analysis of overall batsmanship across several parameters.

Sanga didn't have a 1 billion-man hype machine and mega bucks to flood the media with it.

Which parameters are those?

Average of 35 in South Africa, 36 in India, 44 in England and 34 in West Indies.

Average of 43 against Australia and 40 against England.

He is a brilliant batsman, but one rung below Sachin, Ponting and Lara.

 

[Sachin136]

No, you actually had to see him bat to know that he averaged 50+ against all those teams. #Don'tBelieveInStats

I suspect a big chunk of that 66 average has to do with him playing a lot of games against minnows while he wasn't keeping. Also, these sort of questions don't really make sense. What would happen if Sanga had to play all his home games in a foreign country for example? What would happen if he suffered a debilitating injury like Waqar, Imran, Sachin and Clarke? What if, what if?

That 66 average also has to do with the fact that it doesn't the matches at the start of his career. If you remove the first few matches for all batsman, many of their averages will go up.

 

[Buffet]

Do you find it a coincidence that he only became brutal in ODIs once wickets generally got flatter and ODIs became slog fests or do you think he just transformed as a batsman?

Combination of both factors. He did up his game in ODI , but new rules with flatter pitch also helped.

 

[Joseph Gomes]

Do you find it a coincidence that he only became brutal in ODIs once wickets generally got flatter and ODIs became slog fests or do you think he just transformed as a batsman?

Sangakkara was extremely reckless in ODIs pre 2010. Flat wickets don't help much unless you value your wicket, which he did and was able to score tons. So he upped his game a lot. Sanga was never much of a slogger anyway

 

[KhalidRafi]

What a player. Greatest Asian batsman after Tendulkar, had an average of fricking 57 in Tests!!
And the fact that he retired from ODI cricket after scoring consecutive centuries in the World Cup is incredible on it's own.

 

[Justcrazy]

He should have probably averaged around 60 , would have touched that at least , awesome player.

 

[Mamoon]

Test format in this period against 5 better bowling units,

Against SA - 35
Against Eng - 40
Against Aus - 46
Against NZ - 33
Against Pak - 72

Out of these 5 teams, only team he scored heavily here is against Pakistan, but he has always scored against Pakistan. He was impressive in ODI format in this period. In the test format, he was impressive in earlier period.

I didn't have his respective averages in mind, just remember him scoring mountains of runs against Pakistan + a match-winning century in South Africa + an outstanding series in England which included a hundred at Lord's if I recall correctly. Add to that his LOI exploits and it has been an amazing 5 years for him. For some reason, barring the 192 in Australia and that partnership with Jayawardene vs SA, most of his great knocks in the 2000 era are not fresh in my mind, except for the countless runs that he scored vs Pakistan. Without looking into stats, for me he has had made more of an impact during the 2010 era than he did during the 2000 era.

 

[Bhaijaan]

Most top order batsmen field at slips and get a good view of how the pitch is behaving. Plus that WK advantage is not present in 1st innings.

And in 1st inning, the wk being tired logic doesn't apply either, which is why i say things are hypothetical at best.