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How good were Aamir Sohail and Ramiz Raja?

chacha kashmiri

chacha kashmiri

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A lot is said about Pakistan opening woes and ramiz and aamer are meant to be Pakistani legends

Aamer averaged 35 in tests and 31 in odi and 41 as captain in odis
Had 5 centuries in each format
And had a strike rate of 65 in odis
Below average against Australia and England and West Indies
Good vs India


Ramiz averaged 32 in both and 33 as captain
Had 2 test hundreds and 9 odi hundreds
Strike rate of 63
Below average against both Australia and India
Good against West Indies


Neither of their records seem particularly exemplary
Surprised they played so many matches
 
Aamer Sohail was lucky to have Saeed Anwar as an opening partner in ODIs to save his face many times with that strike rate of 65 while Saeed SR was 80+ in that era.
 
Amir Sohail and Anwar were very good openers.


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Aamir Sohail was a very good opener, similar to Graeme Smith but not quite as good, plus he played in a lower-scoring era.

Rameez Raja was not even the better of the two Raja brothers. He was in some ways comparable to Mohammad Hafeez: very good in ODIs where there is no slip cordon and you can hit every ball into the leg-side. But he was a horrible batsman outside off-stump, so a slip cordon in Tests got him every time.
 
Ramiz was a very limited batsmen , that is being very generous & lets not go in to the technical side of the game, "a very smart operator "[emoji23][emoji23] to play 57 tests it tells you how well connected he was.
Aammir Sohail was overtly aggressive in his batting approach,at least he had his slow left arm bowling.
Only memorable innings from him is in 1992 at old Trafford in a day against England. he was a man who lost his temper very quickly that was his big issue.
 
I can only laugh at these Pakistani kids who are trying to judge Amir Sohail and even Ramiz Raja. Fine players they were. Neither of them were legends or better than batsmen from other teams, but they were both very effective and had the respect of the opposition. The presence of Pakistani fast bowlers helped them immensely.
 
Although they were not greats but they played their role pretty well and were comparable to openers of their era. Yes, they did not average very high overall but they did not choke when it mattered the most. Both scored centuries in WC and/or in overseas tours. How many Pakistani openers even with higher average have done so since then?
 
Aamir Sohail was miles ahead of Ramiz Raja. Aamir and Saeed were a formidable opening pair and more often then not got us off to a good start especially against the indians.
 
Ramiz was as useless a batter as he is a commentator. Hard to imagine. A walking wicket.

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chacha kashmiri said:
A lot is said about Pakistan opening woes and ramiz and aamer are meant to be Pakistani legends

Aamer averaged 35 in tests and 31 in odi and 41 as captain in odis
Had 5 centuries in each format
And had a strike rate of 65 in odis
Below average against Australia and England and West Indies
Good vs India


Ramiz averaged 32 in both and 33 as captain
Had 2 test hundreds and 9 odi hundreds
Strike rate of 63
Below average against both Australia and India
Good against West Indies


Neither of their records seem particularly exemplary
Surprised they played so many matches
Click to expand...

Rameez Raja was never good, not even close. Sohail was a very good opener despite his down times.

The only reason Imran had to pick Rameez in 92 was because our country didn't had anyone but him.
 
Amir Sohail was a good player for the time. Pretty well respected and more importantly made a good partnership with Anwar. Not outstanding but a good solid international standard player. He would have made most international teams in his era, perhaps not the Oz team.

Ramiz Raja was not quite as good but not bad either. An average international player but who was able to fill roles for his team. Remember when he started in the mid 80s/early 90s it was common for openers to average mid 30s as they had some terrific bowling duos to contend with. Every team had at least one dynamite quick (Hadlee for NZ, Botham for Eng, Dev for India) or even a team full. Fast bowling standards were a bit higher and pitches were not as flat.

Australia had a pretty good side in that era and we had a guy called Geoff Marsh as opener in tests or ODI who averaged mid 30s in a successful team. His job was hang in and just protect guys from the new ball. It was a different game. We had another guy called Kepler Wessels who was the same.
 
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Ramiz had only one shot leg side player and was the worst fielder ever


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In Moyo's words "2 centuries hain ap ki 57 test matches mei, ap ko shrm nai ati cricket ki baat karte huay?"
 
And against SL who weren't test class. Like Bangladesh or Zimbabwe.

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Aamer was a good test opener, and in ODIs he was a utility player like Hafeez.

Stats are decent for those days

Ramiz was an average player, he was acceptable in ODIs but played way too many tests than a player of his caliber should have played
 
Rameez was average, but he really stood up for the team in the 92 World Cup.

Aamer is often looked back with green-tinted glasses and nostalgia, but he was very inconsistent in ODIs and had to be carried by Saeed Anwar.

If you take nostalgia out of the way, Hafeez vs Aamer is a valid comparison; perhaps Hafeez wins.
 
Rameez was worse than Butt or Farhat. Not sure what he did in the WC apart from a very slow century against the Windies in a losing match and the final catch. Appalling fielder. In the same as Butt and Farhat in that too.

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dashing_man said:
Rameez Raja was never good, not even close. Sohail was a very good opener despite his down times.

The only reason Imran had to pick Rameez in 92 was because our country didn't had anyone but him.
Click to expand...

I remember sohail
He was dropped when only 30 due to the emergence of the Afridi
At number 3 where he played for a year he averaged even less
 
Sohail was a very hand all rounder opener and good fill in bowler in ODIS. Very underated, Rameez was a mediocre player.
 
Amoeba said:
Rameez was worse than Butt or Farhat. Not sure what he did in the WC apart from a very slow century against the Windies in a losing match and the final catch. Appalling fielder. In the same as Butt and Farhat in that too.

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Click to expand...

He scored 119 chasing 167 against NZ too in that WC.
 
Rameezs image will forever be part of Pakistan cricketing folklore for taking the catch that won us out only WC
 
Saeed Anwar was the best opener Pakistan has ever had. Amir Sohail was his opening partner for long. Rameez Raja was just a mediocre player. Infact his brother Wasim Raja was a much superior player compared to Rameez.
 
Rameez was rubbish but if he played today he would be as good as any of our players in the odi sphere. If it was aamir he would be a legend today.
 
Sohail was a pretty good captain, a very aggressive one. Led us to our first test victory in South Africa. We need some of that aggression out in the field now
 
Sohail was no leader of men. Aggression is fine but a leader needs a brain too. Lacking in that department as his embarrassing stint on the verdict showed.

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Dr Khan said:
Sohail was a pretty good captain, a very aggressive one. Led us to our first test victory in South Africa. We need some of that aggression out in the field now
Click to expand...

Unfortunately also lost us a Test series at home vs Zimbabwe. One of the most inept displays of captaincy I've seen. He committed career suicide that day at the age of 32, was always in and out since then and eventually was out of favor due to the rise of Afridi.
 
Amir was and remains an enigma, he was talented especially against the pace bowlers but like Shazad had to slog to score as strike rotation was a problem, he talks a good game today but couldn't cope with pressure as shown by his falling to Prasad in the 96 WC and his bizzare innings in the Lords Test in 92. Overall like many before and since, underachieved big time.
Rameez was a very talented player and his stats are even poorer than Amirs. He was like Amir, a very good player of fast bowling but his 100 in the WC against the Windies still remains as one of the most selfish and worst innings I have seen in my time.
 
Aamir Sohail was largely mediocre with a few decent performances here and there.

Ramiz Raja was a decent player but largely overshaowed by Inzy, Saeed Anwar, Salim Malik etc. who were more talented than him.
 
Stats might not show, but Aamer was comfortably better than Rameez. Difference in performances in Tests sums it up.

Don't understand how anyone can suggest that Rameez was better.
 
I have to add that Amir played one of the most dominant innings I have seen by an opener at Old Trafford in 92, his 200 was beastly.
 
Rameez always had a free ride thanks to his big brother and their well connected circles, he was lucky to be playing cricket in the height of the sifarish era, don't recall any memorable knocks from him. Aamir Sohail was gutsy and supported Anwar well who was clearly more gifted then the pair of them.
 
Rameez was an excellent timer of the ball and good player of fast bowling in his early days. But he had spells where he was awful and still got picked. Amir was also talented but he was an idiot, and the innings that will always define his career was his appalling shot and mental meltdown in the QF against Ind in 96, made even worse by the fact that he was captain.
 
Ramiz was an ordinary batsman, at least post the 1992 world cup, and never quite merited a place in the side let alone be appointed captain twice.

Sohail was talented and gutsy but with serious temperament issues which meant that he was easy to rattle both on and off the field. He also had technical issues, hard hands and inconsistent footwork, which hampered his ability to rotate the strike effectively. He was jettisoned due to his inability to get along with other senior players especially as they had conspired to get him removed as captain in 1998.
 
Corridor of Uncertainty said:
Ramiz comes in at 25:33 and then I can't believe the shots he plays...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XRx5ILzNihQ&ab_channel=TriSportsCricket
Click to expand...

Some impressive stroke play against an attack with Marshall, Garner and Holding.
At one point Ramiz was one of the leading ODI century makers (9 hundreds) until he was eventually over taken by better batsmen including our own Saeed Anwar.
Unfortunately I saw more of Ramiz during the 90s when he was far less impressive. His stints as captain in the mid-90s weren't the greatest and his batting had regressed by that point.
 
zacattakk said:
Some impressive stroke play against an attack with Marshall, Garner and Holding.
At one point Ramiz was one of the leading ODI century makers (9 hundreds) until he was eventually over taken by better batsmen including our own Saeed Anwar.
Unfortunately I saw more of Ramiz during the 90s when he was far less impressive. His stints as captain in the mid-90s weren't the greatest and his batting had regressed by that point.
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I remember him playing some real clutch innings under pressure including in the famous Bangalore test in 87. Lots of talent, some good contributions. Good player without getting anywhere close to excellent. He and Amir Sohail lasted as long as they did because between them, they were good enough for starts.
 
Rameez is average.

Sohail was above average. Capable of producing good innings now and then . But a majority of his career was just about being good enough to earn his place.
 
two centuries in around fifty test matches is a very poor return for ramiz and he should not have been a part of the test setup for as long as he was. might have also kept out saeed anwer in the process which is unforgivable. odi record is perfectly respectable but poor against a lot of big teams.

amir sohail: under-rated imo. in tests, his record is perfectly acceptable for an opening batsman during a time when he had to face some of the greatest fast bowlers of modern era. performed against australia both at home and away while dealing with off the field issues. as he discussed in his channel recently, pak cricket during that period was rife with conflict over captaincy issue. wasim akram especially had a huge problem playing under him. one of the most disappointing series i have witnessed as a pakistani fan was defeat at the hands of australia at home in 1998. pakistan collapsed in the second inning of the first test and lost that match. had a chance to bounce back in the third. australia came under huge pressure in the third inning but taylor and langer put a dogged and ultimately a series wining partnership. i was at the ground during that session and was very disappointed by the bowling effort out in by akram. did not seem to be putting in an effort.

something similar had occurred earlier that year during the famous tour of south africa when pak drew the series. under sohail's captaincy, pak won the second match without wasim. lost in the third when wasim came back. lots of chatter behind the scene. sohail has not helped his legacy by selecting junaid zia.
 
Both were gun players and true team men in their own rights hence had long careers.

Please dont about averages as that is a topic for the selfish.
 
I remember Sohail got a 205, that was memorable and Ramiz along with Sohail is a world cup winner. Both are champs.
 
55 years old today Aamir Sohail.

Will we see him become part of Ramiz Raja's vision of the future of Pakistan cricket?
 
MenInG said:
55 years old today Aamir Sohail.

Will we see him become part of Ramiz Raja's vision of the future of Pakistan cricket?
Click to expand...
I think so, because he was a very progressive and ruthless selector when Rameez was the CEO.
 
Bar the odd innings, Amir was a poor player. If only his talent matched his mouth. Rameez could be aesthetically pleasing but when he hit a trough, it seemed to become a depression. I remember talking to Aqib Javed around 1991 and he was just as amazed as us at Rameez being in the team after a terrible few months, Rameez went through these dips more than most players.
 
Rameez and Aamir are bitter broadcast rivals. Neither like each other and Ramiz has used his influence to keep Aamir away from Broadcasts. Doubt whether he will get a role in the PCB under Ramiz.
 
With Ramiz i heard Imran Khan say in an interview that there were no good available openers so we just had to back the best available talent we thought that was there. so i think Imran just backed him hoping he would come good. He had 2 100s in the 92 World Cup but overall an average career.

Aamer is more remembered for his partnership with Saeed Anwar rather than his own batting prowess. Like Rameez he had a decent 92 world cup with 1 100 and 2 50s. Overall a better career than Rameez. But he is most remembered for his embarrassing encounters with Venkatesh Prasad in the 96 World Cup. He was tho one of those cricketers who had a presence and an aggressive mentality so I did think he was a good player to have on the field.
 
Guys like Ramiz & Amir just about did enough always to not get dropped. They did have the odd very good game. Its very tricky to drop such players. A more modern example of this type of player is Asad Shafiq.

One thing i must say though that both were brave, fearless and gutsy players.

Ramiz’s flick off the legs and on drive was a thing of beauty.

Amir’s stylish bat lift and giving himself room and driving through the covers was mouth watering in those days.
 
gazza619 said:
Guys like Ramiz & Amir just about did enough always to not get dropped. They did have the odd very good game. Its very tricky to drop such players. A more modern example of this type of player is Asad Shafiq.

One thing i must say though that both were brave, fearless and gutsy players.

Ramiz’s flick off the legs and on drive was a thing of beauty.

Amir’s stylish bat lift and giving himself room and driving through the covers was mouth watering in those days.
Click to expand...

Imran as captain valued temperament and team man attitude more than talent but entitlement. He preferred to have gutsy, never give up cricketers like Aamir Sohail, Ramiz Raja, Ijaz Ahmed, Tauseef Ahmed, Mushtaq Ahmed even if they did not have impressive stats. He despised highly talented players who did not have the temperament to deliver on the big stage or in pressure situations.
 
The first time I saw ramiz bat - I thought what a talent. It was the semi final of the world championship of cricket in 1985. He smacked around a great West Indies quartet in Australia no less.

It proved to be a false dawn as he was very inconsistent after and he only really that leg side flick which looked breathtaking sometimes but ridiculous when he missed one and got out LBW. The best word to describe Rameez’ batting was “loose” or “dheela”

Sohail was grittier and more of a fighter. He seemed to do the hard graft without really rewarding himself with a big score.

However, as a pair they had a job to do and that was to see off the new ball and give a half decent start so the world class middle order consisting of Miandad, Malik, Imran (in the early years) then Inzi and Basit Ali (later) could take the score forward. In that respect they did a fairly decent job.

Amir also formed a very good partnership with Saeed Anwar. It didn’t require much more than Aamir to maintain his 30 odd average to give good starts as Saeed usually outscored him significantly. If you can give an 80-0 regularly start that’s very good. Moreover openers work as a partnership and he worked very well with Saeed.
 
The other thing to remember - because of the bowling quality in the 80s and early 90s, an average of 40+ was considered world class and 50+ ATG.

An average of 30-40 was considered good without being world class, and if you look at it that way, that’s probably the best way to describe both. Good players - that’s it
 
Savak said:
Imran as captain valued temperament and team man attitude more than talent but entitlement. He preferred to have gutsy, never give up cricketers like Aamir Sohail, Ramiz Raja, Ijaz Ahmed, Tauseef Ahmed, Mushtaq Ahmed even if they did not have impressive stats. He despised highly talented players who did not have the temperament to deliver on the big stage or in pressure situations.
Click to expand...

Absolutely these guys had the temperament. Their ODI stats were actually quite decent for that era. Amir was an allrounder as well and used to be Pakistan’s 5th bowler.
 
TheSultan said:
The other thing to remember - because of the bowling quality in the 80s and early 90s, an average of 40+ was considered world class and 50+ ATG.

An average of 30-40 was considered good without being world class, and if you look at it that way, that’s probably the best way to describe both. Good players - that’s it
Click to expand...
Name 6-8 good bowlers that Rameez faced?
 
shujaatraza said:
Name 6-8 good bowlers that Rameez faced?
Click to expand...

6-8 “good” bowlers he “faced”? Are you serious? Some of the best bowlers in history!

Marshall, Garner, Holding, Ambrose, Walsh, Hadlee, Donald, Mcgrath, Botham, Kapil Dev.

I could go on and on….but that should suffice for now
 
Aamer Sohail played 2 of the greatest 3 Pakistan Test innings that I have ever watched.

In 1992-93, the West Indies v Pakistan Test series was the Undisputed World Test Championship.

In the First Test at Port of Spain, the West Indies batted first and Pakistan bowled them out in 38.2 overs for 127 all out. Dessie Haynes topscored with 31, the only other score over 14 was Phil Simmons with 27.

Aamer Sohail then scored a stupendous 55 - the only other scores over 10 were Javed Miandad's 20 and Waqar Younis' 16 not out - as Pakistan was bowled out for 140. Sohail got out at 100-3, and the middle-order then sunk without trace to 120-8.

In that Test Sohail scored 55 and 15, while Rameez made 9 and 11, and Inzamam made 10 and 6, and Javed Miandad made 20 and 4.

Two and a half years later Sohail produced an even greater performance at Brisbane, against a bowling attack of McDermott, McGrath, Reiffel and Warne.

In Pakistan's First Innings of 97 all out - in a close series which Pakistan lost 2-1 largely due to inadequate acclimatisation and preparation - Sohail topscored with 32 (Rameez scored 8 and Inzamam 5).

Following on, Sohail scored 99 before being bowled by Glenn McGrath's first famous Test wicket, to his greatest ever delivery. (Rameez scored 16 and Inzamam scored 62).

Overall, you can see that Aamer Sohail was a player with a decent technique and a huge appetite for the toughest fights.

I think that Pakistan would have won the 1999 World Cup Final if he had been in the team. He was simply much, much more mentally strong than mentally frail players like Saeed Anwar, Inzamam, Shahid Afridi or Yousuf Youhana (who didn't play anyway).
 
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Junaids said:
Aamer Sohail played 2 of the greatest 3 Pakistan Test innings that I have ever watched.

In 1992-93, the West Indies v Pakistan Test series was the Undisputed World Test Championship.

In the First Test at Port of Spain, the West Indies batted first and Pakistan bowled them out in 38.2 overs for 127 all out. Dessie Haynes topscored with 31, the only other score over 14 was Phil Simmons with 27.

Aamer Sohail then scored a stupendous 55 - the only other scores over 10 were Javed Miandad's 20 and Waqar Younis' 16 not out - as Pakistan was bowled out for 140. Sohail got out at 100-3, and the middle-order then sunk without trace to 120-8.

In that Test Sohail scored 55 and 15, while Rameez made 9 and 11, and Inzamam made 10 and 6, and Javed Miandad made 20 and 4.

Two and a half years later Sohail produced an even greater performance at Brisbane, against a bowling attack of McDermott, McGrath, Reiffel and Warne.

In Pakistan's First Innings of 97 all out - in a close series which Pakistan lost 2-1 largely due to inadequate acclimatisation and preparation - Sohail topscored with 32 (Rameez scored 8 and Inzamam 5).

Following on, Sohail scored 99 before being bowled by Glenn McGrath's first famous Test wicket, to his greatest ever delivery. (Rameez scored 16 and Inzamam scored 62).

Overall, you can see that Aamer Sohail was a player with a decent technique and a huge appetite for the toughest fights.

I think that Pakistan would have won the 1999 World Cup Final if he had been in the team. He was simply much, much more mentally strong than mentally frail players like Saeed Anwar, Inzamam, Shahid Afridi or Yousuf Youhana (who didn't play anyway).
Click to expand...

Where was his mental toughness in the 1996 QF against India where he had a brain fade against Prasad and threw away his wicket after getting set?

99% of the times he was routinely outscored and out performed by Saeed Anwar. The stats don't lie
 
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