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How great was Curtly Ambrose in Test? Ahead of Richard Hadlee, Glenn McGrath and Wasim Akram?

Harsh Thakor

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There could never be a more menacing sight in the game than Curtly Ambrose hurling down the wicket reminiscent of the fury of a greek God or hostility of a bomber plane.On his day Curtly could ground any batting line up to dust like a spear ripping through the ribcage of a body.Within no time he could initiate a batting collapse like nine pins rolling .


Arguably no pace bowler was ever as accurate and relentless or more hostile at his best.He did not move the ball so much or was consistently tearaway fast but no bowler could create such awkward disconcerting bounce from a good length,or could send the stumps spreadeagling so frequently.On a broken wicket in the 4th Innings he did not have an equal and could create the sensation of dynamite exploding.No pacemen won so many games in a 4th innings or produced as many sensational spells.At Perth with 7-22 in 1993 and at Trinidad with 6-24 v England Ambrose took sustained pace bowling skill to metaphysical proportions,like an explosion out there in the middle.It was not wizardry or sheer speed but agression at it's greatest height like the power of a combustion engine.Batsmen were literally perplexed whether to play forwrad or back.His match winning 8-45 v England at Antigua in 1990 and 6-34 v South Africa at Barbados had similar overtones with controlled power executed ,like a mower shaving the grass of a lawn.The ecstasy on his face after a scalp would say it all.

Ambrose best performer against the best and earlier 2nd best team of his time Australia.In 1992-93 he had a record haul for a West Indian of 33 scalps while topped the averages and most number of wickets in Australia in 1988-89.He played an important role in ressurecting his team to glory at Barbados in 1999 v Australia while also bowled a match wining spell at Melbourne in 1996-97.

He hardly played on the sub-continent but was highly economical in 1990,though not successful in 1997.In England he was as economical as anyone on 3 succesive tours.

What set Ambrose apart was his remarkable average in tests won of around 16,better than any bowling great of his time and the number of match-winning spells.He was more explosive than Glen Mcgrath who although more intelligent and crafty could not rip the heart out of side like Curtly.Richard Hadlee was not as volatile but in effect on a green top could match Ambrose.Hadlee had 15 more 5 wicket hauls than Ambrose and 4 more 10 wicket hauls.Both Hadlee and Mcgrath had a better strike rate of around 50-51 as compared to Curtly's 54.6.Still Ambrose had a better average of 20.99 as compared to 21.64 of Mcgrath and 22.29 of Hadlee's.Mcgrath had more craft than Curtly or Richard with more subtle changes of pace and deliveries and greater intelligence in judging weaknesses of oponents.Hadlee and Ambrose could be found wanting on flat tracks,unlike Mcgrath.Glen was not as sensational in single spells but in all conditions was more lethal.

Ambrose had a better average,strike rate,match-winning average and best figures than Wasim but was overshadowed by Akram in peak era from 1990-98 .Wasim was much better on flat pancakes and overall had more 5 and 10wicket hauls.Wasim had a disadvantage of having to bowl so much on flat pancakes unlike Curtly who bowled most on the bouncy surfaces in West Indies and Australia.Ambrose had more top order scalps or those of the best batsmen than Curtly.However in general batsmen found Wasim a more daunting proposition.Ambrose was significantly better in terms of economy and marginally in in spells but overall it was still Wasim who could make the more crucial breakthroughs.-,with more craft and variations.South African batsmen ranked Wasim ahead overall,like Kallis.


On a bad wicket Ambrose was the best of all,particularly in defending a score.In many ways he was a more improvised form of Joel Garner.However Curtly did not possess the repertoire of a Marshall,Wasim,or Lillee to conquer all conditions.Ambrose played for a top team for the 1st half of his career and a weak team for the latter part.Hadlee bore the brunt solely of a weak attack while Mcgrath played for waht was close to the strongest test side ever.

Very hard who I would choose as a pure pace bowler in atest XI but it would depend on the conditions.On a green top Hadlee,on a broken wicket Ambrose ,on flat pancake Wasim and in ideal cricket conditions Mcgrath and Wasim..At his best at Lords in 2005 Mcgrath came closest to blowing perfection as the greatest ever being the exponent of every requirement for great pace bowling.On Australian tracks Ambrose would be my first choice with Hadlee a whisker behind.If a test was played in Australia Ambrose,Hadlee and Mcgrath may have had the edge over Wasim.

Still it is Dennis Lillee who chose Ambrose as the most lethal paceman of his day.Australain batsmen found him equally challenging as Wasim like Waugh brothers,Mark Taylor and Ricky Ponting.Howevever they did not face Mcgrath or Wasim enough on the sub-continent to make an accurate judgement.

Thus Ambrose was the most lethal in favourable conditions but overall a whisker below Mcgrath,Hadlee and Wasim in my book.

STATS BY S.RAJESH IN CRICINFO

Best Test bowlers between Jan 1990 and Dec 1997 (Qual: 150 wickets)
Bowler Tests Wickets Average Strike rate 5WI/ 10WM
Wasim Akram 48 240 20.05 46.4 16/ 3
Curtly Ambrose 57 247 20.50 52.8 17/ 3
Waqar Younis 46 232 21.23 40.1 19/ 4
Allan Donald 36 171 23.27 48.8 9/ 2


Highest frequency of MoM awards in Tests (Qual: 10 awards)
Player Tests MoM awards Tests per award
Wasim Akram 104 17 6.12
Jacques Kallis 137 20 6.85
Muttiah Muralitharan 132 19 6.95
Curtly Ambrose 98 14 7.00
Imran Khan 88 11 8.00
Malcolm Marshall 81 10 8.10

Best bowling averages in Test wins (Qual: 200 wickets)
Bowler Tests Wickets Average Strike rate 5WI/ 10WM
Muttiah Muralitharan 53 430 16.03 42.6 40/ 18
Malcolm Marshall 43 254 16.78 38.1 17/ 4
Curtly Ambrose 44 229 16.86 44.4 13/ 3
Waqar Younis 39 222 18.20 35.0 14/ 4
Dennis Lillee 31 203 18.27 39.0 17/ 6
Shaun Pollock 49 223 18.30 47.5 9/ 1
Wasim Akram 41 211 18.48 42.3 13/ 2
Anil Kumble 43 288 18.75 44.4 20/ 5
Glenn McGrath 36 164 23.42 53.0 9/ 0
Shane Warne 62 289 24.08 62.9 12/ 3
 
Can't argue against 405 wickets at an average of 20.99, that's a record among the best ever. Out of the names you mentioned, only McGrath can lay claim to be better than him because he took way more wickets although at a slightly inferior average.

But to be honest, I don't care who was better between them. They are all greats of the game and made cricket a richer sport.
 
On his day he isas good as any. When you compare these champions you have to consider how good when they are at their very best. Ambrose is definitely like Hadlee in that way. Picking 7 wickets for 1 run is surreal. Hadlee could also run through sides.

If you drill into type of wickets they take by BATTING POSITION

Mcgrath

1-4 50%
8-11 25%

Ambrose

1-4 47%
8-11 27%

Hadlee

1-4 43%
8-11 29%

Akram

1-4 39%
8-11 35%
 
Yes, Ambrose has a strong case to be better than Wasim and at same level as Hadlee in test cricket strictly. What a bowler he was!
 
Yes, Ambrose has a strong case to be better than Wasim and at same level as Hadlee in test cricket strictly. What a bowler he was!

Was not Wasim superior on flat wickets and a better performer in peak era from 1990-98?Wasim had more 5 and10 wkt hauls as well.Ambrose championed bad tracks while Wasim was the best on flat wickets.Would not Wasim be Morally more impactful in test cricket also?
 
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Wasim Akram is more impactful on flatter pitches and demolishing sides and nobody comes close. Wasim & Waqar were the best in demolishing sides and conjuring bucket full of wickets from seemingly nothing.

Wasim consistently displayed the art of turning the game on its head at all levels

Having watched all of them, I would put Curtly at the bottom of these 4 but it takes nothing away from the fact that he was a phenomenal bowler
 
Ambrose is among the top 3 bowlers of all time, hell probably even the best all things combined.
 
Sorry pp viewers I forgot to mention that tentatively I rank Ambrose at 6th place amongst great test pace bowlers.Marshall,Lillee,Wasim,Mcgrathand Hadlee just nose Curtly.
 
Was not Wasim superior on flat wickets and a better performer in peak era from 1990-98?Wasim had more 5 and10 wkt hauls as well.Ambrose championed bad tracks while Wasim was the best on flat wickets.Would not Wasim be Morally more impactful in test cricket also?

You don't have a 400+ wickets at 21 just by bullying teams on bad tracks. Curtly averages 20 in Australia, 23 in SA and 25 in Pak, these are by and large the top 3 teams of his time, while Wasim averages 26 in Aus, 29 in SA and 25 in Pak. As much as I like Wasim but I have got to admit Ambrose is a better bowler by some margin. I have watched them both and Curtly was on a different level as a bowler, scariest bowler of his time.
 
Wasim Akram is more impactful on flatter pitches and demolishing sides and nobody comes close. Wasim & Waqar were the best in demolishing sides and conjuring bucket full of wickets from seemingly nothing.

Wasim consistently displayed the art of turning the game on its head at all levels

Having watched all of them, I would put Curtly at the bottom of these 4 but it takes nothing away from the fact that he was a phenomenal bowler

I don't think he "demolished" that much at home. 8 fifers at home. 3 against zimbabwe. 1 vs Srilanka in their minnow status. Against India 5 for 101, 42 wickets in all with his fifers. 17 of them tailenders.
 
On his day he isas good as any. When you compare these champions you have to consider how good when they are at their very best. Ambrose is definitely like Hadlee in that way. Picking 7 wickets for 1 run is surreal. Hadlee could also run through sides.

If you drill into type of wickets they take by BATTING POSITION

Mcgrath

1-4 50%
8-11 25%

Ambrose

1-4 47%
8-11 27%

Hadlee

1-4 43%
8-11 29%

Akram

1-4 39%
8-11 35%

Taking 3 wickets at 20 a peice will set up any team nicely. Picking 3 wickets of tail at 20 a peice won't help a team that much. McGrath changed lots of matches by picking wickets upfront and that's why he is rated as the best bowler of his generation. I will rate Ambrose slightly behind McGrath.
 
Ambrose was a great bowler but he is also massively overrated.

McGrath, Akram, Marshall, Lillee and Imran are easily above him and possibly a few more.
 
Taking 3 wickets at 20 a peice will set up any team nicely. Picking 3 wickets of tail at 20 a peice won't help a team that much. McGrath changed lots of matches by picking wickets upfront and that's why he is rated as the best bowler of his generation. I will rate Ambrose slightly behind McGrath.

Kapil belongs to this category. 49% of his wickets are 1-4 . 27% of his wickets are 8-11
 
Ambrose was a great bowler but he is also massively overrated.

McGrath, Akram, Marshall, Lillee and Imran are easily above him and possibly a few more.

Mcgrath is the brainiest i have seen. I remember in the Chennai test match when India was scrapping around for a win and there was not seam movement on the offer he scuffed up the ball vigorously. Spend quiet some time on it. Then he bowled a banana inswinger out of nowhere. INdia did well to scrap that win thanks to Laxman.
 
McGrath is clear of Ambrose. But in tests I'll take Ambrose of Akram. Overall Wasim is the better bowler though.
 
I think that McGrath, Garner, Ambrose and Van Der Bijl are to all intents and purposes identical, to the degree of being practically clones of one another, and anyone trying to argue that one was better than another is basically making it up.

Same height, same pace, same action, same variations, same accuracy.
 
On his day he isas good as any. When you compare these champions you have to consider how good when they are at their very best. Ambrose is definitely like Hadlee in that way. Picking 7 wickets for 1 run is surreal. Hadlee could also run through sides.

If you drill into type of wickets they take by BATTING POSITION

Mcgrath

1-4 50%
8-11 25%

Ambrose

1-4 47%
8-11 27%

Hadlee

1-4 43%
8-11 29%

Akram

1-4 39%
8-11 35%

These stats seem to confirm the following observation:

Wasim was incredibly skillful, but he mostly bowled in “ODI mode” in Test cricket, mixed his line and length too frequently and was thus devastating against the tail but less so against the top-order batsmen.

In other words, he was a superior version of Starc in Test cricket.

Wasim fans will say that he suffered because Pakistani slip fielders couldn’t catch, although there are no stats to support that claim.

I might be wrong, but I believe Anderson has a very impressive percentage of top-order wickets as well, and it would be interesting to see how he compared to the likes of Steyn and Broad.
 
He was easily ahead of wasim in tests. I will put mcgrath ahead by an inch but both were really great.
 
Taking 3 wickets at 20 a peice will set up any team nicely. Picking 3 wickets of tail at 20 a peice won't help a team that much. McGrath changed lots of matches by picking wickets upfront and that's why he is rated as the best bowler of his generation. I will rate Ambrose slightly behind McGrath.

This is a very important statistic that needs to be highlighted. A bowler who averages 27 with a higher percentage of top-order wickets should be rated on par (if not above) a bowler who averages 23 with a higher percentage of lower-order wickets, since the 27 average bowlers is having a bigger impact.
 
These stats seem to confirm the following observation:

Wasim was incredibly skillful, but he mostly bowled in “ODI mode” in Test cricket, mixed his line and length too frequently and was thus devastating against the tail but less so against the top-order batsmen.

In other words, he was a superior version of Starc in Test cricket.

Wasim fans will say that he suffered because Pakistani slip fielders couldn’t catch, although there are no stats to support that claim.

I might be wrong, but I believe Anderson has a very impressive percentage of top-order wickets as well, and it would be interesting to see how he compared to the likes of Steyn and Broad.

Anderson not just top order. But also dismissed gun players like Tendulkar, Kohli more.

Anderson

48% 1-4
26% 8-11

Broad

45% 1-4
27% 8-11

Steyn

43% 1-4
31% 8-11
 
Comparison 4 great all rounders from the 80s

Kapil Dev

1-4 49%
8-11 28%


Imran Khan


1-4 45%
8-11 28%

Hadlee

1-4 43%
8-11 29%

Botham

1-4 40%
8-11 30%
 
POint to note is Kapil, Anderson, Steyn all outswing bowlers. Also Imran could bowl outswingers to right handers. They generally trouble opening batsmen more. Mcgrath is the great corridor of uncertainty bowler ever. You could neither commit to frontfoot nor backfoot. Guess who is a similar bowler to Mcgrath

Mohammad Asif . Although just 103 wickets look at the break down

MOhammad Asif

1-4 56%
8-11 20%
 
Zaheer khan was a fantastic new ball bowler

Zaheer Khan

1-4 51%
8-11 20%

Another outswing bowler (mediocre career though) who has this impressive top order wicket percentage is Sreesanth. SOme top players like Lara, Gayle, Smith, Kallis

Sreesanth

1-4 59%
8-11 19%
 
Compared to Mcgrath?Better?

McGrath is ahead by a whisker. The greatest bowler of his era.

In 90s and early 00s, my order taking both formats will be

McGrath
Wasim
Ambrose
Donald
Waqar
Pollock
Walsh
 
Ambrose was a great bowler but he is also massively overrated.

McGrath, Akram, Marshall, Lillee and Imran are easily above him and possibly a few more.

How exactly? Only Marshall has a better bowling average than him out of the names you mentioned.
 
Curtly Ambrose was my no.1 favorite pace bowler ever! Wasim Akram and Allan Donald are next.
 
Was not Wasim superior on flat wickets and a better performer in peak era from 1990-98?Wasim had more 5 and10 wkt hauls as well.Ambrose championed bad tracks while Wasim was the best on flat wickets.Would not Wasim be Morally more impactful in test cricket also?

Ambrose average 3 lower, significantly better away average as well. Wasim did well at home, like most bowlers did. Didn't make use of goods tracks due to limitations in his bowling
 
McGrath>=Hadlee>=Ambrose>Wasim:

McGrath had a great record everywhere, despite playing in the most batting-centric era in history
Hadlee had a great records, but played in a significantly easier era for bowling
Ambrose had a slightly weaker record in the subcontinent, but was a very effective bowler everywhere else
Wasim is clearly below these other bowlers in terms of record and effectiveness
 
He’s below all three of them because of his poor record in Asia. His counterpart Walsh on the other hand, was remarkably successful in Asia.

Curtly always needed some spice in the pitch to get wickets or otherwise, he mainly kept the RR low. This is why he was particularly deadly against ENG and AUS, which provided him fast, grassy, and bouncy pitches.

Hadlee has not a bad record in any country except Pakistan (where he only played 2 matches).

McGrath and Akram are known for their exploits worldwide.
 
He’s below all three of them because of his poor record in Asia. His counterpart Walsh on the other hand, was remarkably successful in Asia.

Curtly always needed some spice in the pitch to get wickets or otherwise, he mainly kept the RR low. This is why he was particularly deadly against ENG and AUS, which provided him fast, grassy, and bouncy pitches.

Hadlee has not a bad record in any country except Pakistan (where he only played 2 matches).

McGrath and Akram are known for their exploits worldwide.

Poor record in Asia? At least check your facts before speaking rubbish. He averages 25 in Pakistan and 9 in Sri Lanka. He didn't play in India. That looks poor to you?
 
I think that McGrath, Garner, Ambrose and Van Der Bijl are to all intents and purposes identical, to the degree of being practically clones of one another, and anyone trying to argue that one was better than another is basically making it up.

Same height, same pace, same action, same variations, same accuracy.
In your view were they better than Wasim?
 
Poor record in Asia? At least check your facts before speaking rubbish. He averages 25 in Pakistan and 9 in Sri Lanka. He didn't play in India. That looks poor to you?

My apologies.
 
Last edited:
Curtly was a great. He was the reason I first ever sat down to watch a Test match. I knew the game of cricket, or I thought I did- but not what I was seeing on screen. There was no hitting. No chance to score. Just a huge, hostile, 7 foot tall alien catapaulting the ball down relentlessly at the batsman. Not to the batsman or even toward the batsman. This was at him. There was an air of menace. All they could do was try to survive. Scoring was out of the question. Few had the courage. It was mesmerising. After this, Australia just declared. Imagine that. Didn't send Merv Hughes out. In a Test match. Australia!

It is a bit unfortunate sometimes these threads descend into putting one great down in order to promote your own choice. And I am biased, Curtly is one of my all time favourite players. Wasim was a completely different bowler- swing vs bounce, wizardy vs hostility.

So many memories are burned into my history of the game. He had that aura. He maintained his mystique with the famous, "Curtly talk to no man" line whenever an interview was requested.


That 7-1 at the WACA.
The infamous wristbands match (& we see a rare glimpse of humour & the beautiful slower ball yorker too).

Possibly most momentous was is 8 wickets at Bridgetown, 1992 vs South Africa. Their first Test since re-admission. After decades of bans due to the racist apartheid system, an all white South African team was sent to play the WI in their first Test back. Imagine that.

The WI... Still kings of the world in 1992 found themselves on the brink of defeat.
Turning up to the final day with SA needing only 95 runs, with 8 wickets in hand and all day to bat. Imagine the pressure on the WI for their people in not losing that game to that team. What would it say if that all white SA team could waltz back into Test cricket & topple the WI, at home, in their first match back? Well Curtly (6 for) & Courtney (4fer) simply walked onto the field, informed the captain they & ony they would be bowling ALL day, until they won. And somehow they pulled it off. That's pressure. That's performance. That's greatness.

The infamous S Waugh confrontation- a changing of the guard moment when an ageing Ambrose battered a maturing S Waugh literally black & blue (& purple) in the match that ended one era & began another. Epic stuff.

Curtly lists a few other matches among his favourites too, but those are some of mine. To see only the stats & words one might assume Curtly was just a dry them up bowler, not that exciting. No way, he was a sight to behold. He was box office & he could blow you away.

And the yorkers... oh boy the yorkers.
 
^ My personal favorite Ambrose. His celebration is unmatched lol My most favorite celebration
 
Ambrose along with McGrath was the best fast bowler I ever saw. Then come the likes of Steyn and Akram.
 
The infamous S Waugh confrontation- a changing of the guard moment when an ageing Ambrose battered a maturing S Waugh literally black & blue (& purple) in the match that ended one era & began another. Epic stuff.

Brilliant, brilliant cricket. Steve Waugh's finest innings too. Very few players could stand up to that fast bowling on that wicket like he did
 
Comparison 4 great all rounders from the 80s

Kapil Dev

1-4 49%
8-11 28%


Imran Khan


1-4 45%
8-11 28%

Hadlee

1-4 43%
8-11 29%

Botham

1-4 40%
8-11 30%

Kapil Dev is the greatest AR ever.

Apart from his amazing stats he was the best against the best team of this generation. He outperformed all of his contemporaries against Windies.
 
Kapil Dev is the greatest AR ever.

Apart from his amazing stats he was the best against the best team of this generation. He outperformed all of his contemporaries against Windies.

Just performing against best country doesn't mean you are the greatest.
It's like saying Ijaz Ahmed,VVS are better batsman than Tendulkar,Lara because they performed better than them against best country of their time.
 
Just performing against best country doesn't mean you are the greatest.
It's like saying Ijaz Ahmed,VVS are better batsman than Tendulkar,Lara because they performed better than them against best country of their time.

Tendulkar and Lara were better than VVS and Ijaz against Australia.
 
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I would argue that was second-best WI quick ever, behind only Marshall and equal to Garner.

These guys are only a percentage point different but I would put him marginally ahead of Hadlee and Wasim if I was forced to choose, Ambrose was just relentless and so destructive, especially when he got angry.
 
I would argue that was second-best WI quick ever, behind only Marshall and equal to Garner.

These guys are only a percentage point different but I would put him marginally ahead of Hadlee and Wasim if I was forced to choose, Ambrose was just relentless and so destructive, especially when he got angry.

I'm curious about how you arrive at Garner as the second best WI quick? It's not an argument I've heard before.

What puts him ahead of Holding, Walsh, Roberts etc?
 
This is very subjective and too many factors to consider. There are arguments to be made for all these guys.

Easiest option is to say these bowlers were ALL TIME GREATS.

In no particular order and pacers only :

Ambrose, Holding, Roberts, Garner, Marshall

Wasim, Waqar, Imran, Fazal

McGrath, Lillee, Thompson

Donald, Steyn

Hadlee
 
I'm curious about how you arrive at Garner as the second best WI quick? It's not an argument I've heard before.

What puts him ahead of Holding, Walsh, Roberts etc?

Extremely low average, very hard to hit, got more wickets than those fellas except Walsh who was around when the conveyer belt of WI quicks slowed down. He beat England up so many times. I'm talking about the fast bowler of the second half of his career, not the medium pacer of the first half.
 
This is very subjective and too many factors to consider. There are arguments to be made for all these guys.

Easiest option is to say these bowlers were ALL TIME GREATS.

In no particular order and pacers only :

Ambrose, Holding, Roberts, Garner, Marshall

Wasim, Waqar, Imran, Fazal

McGrath, Lillee, Thompson

Donald, Steyn

Hadlee

Pollock and Walsh must be there. Rest looks fine.
 
I haven't posted in ages but this topic compelled me.

CEL Ambrose is the best fast bowler to ever play the game. Stats say a lot but those who watched him know he has no equal.

When it mattered, he had that 6th gear.
 
I haven't posted in ages but this topic compelled me.

CEL Ambrose is the best fast bowler to ever play the game. Stats say a lot but those who watched him know he has no equal.

When it mattered, he had that 6th gear.

More skill and versatility than Wasim and Marshall?Best on flat tracks unhelpful to pace bowlers?
 
I haven't posted in ages but this topic compelled me.

CEL Ambrose is the best fast bowler to ever play the game. Stats say a lot but those who watched him know he has no equal.
.

I watched him and think he had a bunch of equals such as Garner and McGrath, and Marshall was even better.
 
Mcgrath is the brainiest i have seen. I remember in the Chennai test match when India was scrapping around for a win and there was not seam movement on the offer he scuffed up the ball vigorously. Spend quiet some time on it. Then he bowled a banana inswinger out of nowhere. INdia did well to scrap that win thanks to Laxman.

Yes there are countless examples of McGrath finding a way to win. He is undoubtedly the greatest pace bowler of all time the Bradman of bowling.
 
yeah but wasim has played many match winning knocks, was left handed, displayed a variety of skills with e ball 9slow, reverse swing, cutter, yorker), as well as had good leadership skills...those two attributes made him a multi dimensional cricketer, hence he will always be superior than all the bowlers...

ambrose, mcgrath, steyn, walsh could barely hold the bat..
 
Yes there are countless examples of McGrath finding a way to win. He is undoubtedly the greatest pace bowler of all time the Bradman of bowling.

sure, but he also played among the greatest captains and tacticians of all time in steve waugh, greatest spinner of all time in warne, greatest impact batsman and matchwinner of all time in ponting and greatest wk/bat of all time in gilchrist...

lets not forget their fielding...

in terms of pure skills, he was behind wasim - he relied on consistently pitching the ball in a good area and just had a good leg cutter.
didnt reverse the ball, didnt have a good yorker, bouncer was not speedy at all...

thats why his strike rate is much lower than other bowlers.
 
Yes there are countless examples of McGrath finding a way to win. He is undoubtedly the greatest pace bowler of all time the Bradman of bowling.

There is no need for hyperbole. McGrath would have to be twice as good as everyone else to gain that accolade, but he wasn’t better than several other guys I could name.
 
sure, but he also played among the greatest captains and tacticians of all time in steve waugh, greatest spinner of all time in warne, greatest impact batsman and matchwinner of all time in ponting and greatest wk/bat of all time in gilchrist...

lets not forget their fielding...

in terms of pure skills, he was behind wasim - he relied on consistently pitching the ball in a good area and just had a good leg cutter.
didnt reverse the ball, didnt have a good yorker, bouncer was not speedy at all...

thats why his strike rate is much lower than other bowlers.

He could reverse it, look at some of the footage from India.

He cut it into the right handed as well as away.

His great skill was to be able to quickly find a batter’s weakness and consistently put the ball there.

Bouncers are useful but not as much as the one that gets up off a good length.
 
He could reverse it, look at some of the footage from India.

He cut it into the right handed as well as away.

His great skill was to be able to quickly find a batter’s weakness and consistently put the ball there.

Bouncers are useful but not as much as the one that gets up off a good length.

I’m sure Afridi could reverse swing the ball Also. That’s not the point. The point is comparing overall skill set and various skills.
If you’re telling me that McGrath was a better reverse swing bowler than wasim, then we don’t need to discuss anything further.

Average is one thing - strike rate is also important. McGrath would have been decimated like Steyn in T20s if he had played more t20 matches
 
I’m sure Afridi could reverse swing the ball Also. That’s not the point. The point is comparing overall skill set and various skills.
If you’re telling me that McGrath was a better reverse swing bowler than wasim, then we don’t need to discuss anything further.

Average is one thing - strike rate is also important. McGrath would have been decimated like Steyn in T20s if he had played more t20 matches

Every bowler gets hit in t20s. it's just the nature of the format. Also Mcgrath played a whole season of IPL after retirement & wasnt decimated like you say he would be. his ER I think was below 7 which is amazing for a guy who retired from the game a year earlier
 
I’m sure Afridi could reverse swing the ball Also. That’s not the point. The point is comparing overall skill set and various skills.
If you’re telling me that McGrath was a better reverse swing bowler than wasim, then we don’t need to discuss anything further.

Average is one thing - strike rate is also important. McGrath would have been decimated like Steyn in T20s if he had played more t20 matches

I’d say he was as good at it. You can see footage of McGrath bowling booming inswinging Yorkers. “Overall skill set” is meaningless; the only metrics are where and who the wickets were taken against, average and strike rate.
 
I’m sure Afridi could reverse swing the ball Also. That’s not the point. The point is comparing overall skill set and various skills.
If you’re telling me that McGrath was a better reverse swing bowler than wasim, then we don’t need to discuss anything further.

Average is one thing - strike rate is also important. McGrath would have been decimated like Steyn in T20s if he had played more t20 matches

Bloke barely if ever got smashed. Very hard to dominate due to bounce and accuracy
 
There is no need for hyperbole. McGrath would have to be twice as good as everyone else to gain that accolade, but he wasn’t better than several other guys I could name.

Apart from Marshall and arguably Hadlee, Steyn who could be considered better. Barnes debatable I guess
 
yeah but wasim has played many match winning knocks, was left handed, displayed a variety of skills with e ball 9slow, reverse swing, cutter, yorker), as well as had good leadership skills...those two attributes made him a multi dimensional cricketer, hence he will always be superior than all the bowlers...

ambrose, mcgrath, steyn, walsh could barely hold the bat..

We are discussing bowling only. Otherwise Bradman > Wasim as a bowler. Not great leadership skills but still irrelevant.

Bowling skills are irrelevant, what matters are results
 
I haven't posted in ages but this topic compelled me.

CEL Ambrose is the best fast bowler to ever play the game. Stats say a lot but those who watched him know he has no equal.

When it mattered, he had that 6th gear.

Marshall better, and very hard to construct an argument for him over McGrath/Hadlee
 
This is very subjective and too many factors to consider. There are arguments to be made for all these guys.

Easiest option is to say these bowlers were ALL TIME GREATS.

In no particular order and pacers only :

Ambrose, Holding, Roberts, Garner, Marshall

Wasim, Waqar, Imran, Fazal

McGrath, Lillee, Thompson

Donald, Steyn

Hadlee

Fazal is below:
Bold for way better:
Lindwall
Trueman
Davidson
Pollock

Statham
Proctor
Walsh
Larwood

Hugely out of place on this list
 
I wouldn't put Ambrose ahead of Mcgrath. Mcgrath was consistently good for me everywhere he played, whereas ambrose didnt play much in the suncontinent and for me relied too much on the home up and down pitches with variable bounce when he lost pace

Ambrose was undoubtedly a great bowler but for me mcgrath was the best of his generation 1997-2007
 
I'm curious about how you arrive at Garner as the second best WI quick? It's not an argument I've heard before.

What puts him ahead of Holding, Walsh, Roberts etc?

Statistically better than all but Ambrose, Marshall
GOAT change bowler
 
Kapil Dev is the greatest AR ever.

Apart from his amazing stats he was the best against the best team of this generation. He outperformed all of his contemporaries against Windies.

hahahahahaha

Worst of that four, and below:
Greig
Kallis
Sobers
Proctor
Miller
Faulkner
 
I wouldn't put Ambrose ahead of Mcgrath. Mcgrath was consistently good for me everywhere he played, whereas ambrose didnt play much in the suncontinent and for me relied too much on the home up and down pitches with variable bounce when he lost pace

Ambrose was undoubtedly a great bowler but for me mcgrath was the best of his generation 1997-2007

Agree, fine margins, but that is always the case when comparing ATG fast bowlers after Marshall
 
Agree, fine margins, but that is always the case when comparing ATG fast bowlers after Marshall

Theres not much in it at all between mcgrath and ambrose Both very similar tall and consistently accurate getting good bounce and hard to score off Only difference for me though was Ambrose could be seen off on flat pitches sometimes Mcgrath couldnt

For me mcgrath was a inch better overall
 
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You are forgetting one thing that Ambrose started playing cricket at the age of 20,his interest was to play basketball but his mom forced him to play cricket.
Imagine had he took interest in his early age what kind of bowler he would be?
 
We are discussing bowling only. Otherwise Bradman > Wasim as a bowler. Not great leadership skills but still irrelevant.

Bowling skills are irrelevant, what matters are results
Ummm leadership skills, overall cricketing brain and strategy is quite important.
 
I’d say he was as good at it. You can see footage of McGrath bowling booming inswinging Yorkers. “Overall skill set” is meaningless; the only metrics are where and who the wickets were taken against, average and strike rate.
Ummmm how is overall skill set is not relevant when discussing talent in bowling?
 
Every bowler gets hit in t20s. it's just the nature of the format. Also Mcgrath played a whole season of IPL after retirement & wasnt decimated like you say he would be. his ER I think was below 7 which is amazing for a guy who retired from the game a year earlier
One season of IPL is not some good standard of a bowlers ability, otherwise Tymal mills abd unadkat would be legends.
 
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