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How is England's 2019 World Cup win in the final not a fluke?

But how on earth does any team "deserve" to win even before steping into the field? That doesnt even make sense.

If some lower ranked team like Bangladesh had beaten England, would you say that Bangladesh didnt deserve to win?

Of course they wouldn’t have deserved, just like Pakistan didn’t deserve to win this World Cup. However, sports can be very harsh and the deserving team doesn’t always win, but I am glad that they did this time.
 
I very rarely agree with [MENTION=131701]Mamoon[/MENTION] but how does one steal a 10 yr from South Africa or guy who is half British. In regards to Morgan he was poached as a fully fledged player (he did it for whatever reason but it's not like he is the next big thing and deflected when ODIs were not important)
Morgan not being the next big thing, he was made captain of the english odi team and is credited for changing the way england play odi cricket and for masterminding the england world cup victory!
Yeah not the next big thing, but INVALUABLE, to the england cause!!
 
Archer, i believe was born and bred in barbados!! Coming to england as an adult.
Hardly makes him english, though he may be a british citizen due to his father being british or by naturalisation. But he learnt his cricket in barbados, not england, so he should be ineglible to play for england!!
This is the excuse people use for ben stokes, that he came to england as a child and learnt his cricket in england, not new zealand and you also make a similar claim for roy! You can't have it both ways!!

Morgan played for ireland!!
No way should he have been allowed to play for a second international country, thats just a joke. So all associate teams watch out your best players are fair game for bigger, wealthier cricket nations, according to this!

I am not having it either way. Why shouldn’t England avail the opportunity of selecting a player regardless of where he is from originally? England is a multicultural country and in spite of the rising xenophobia because of Brexit, it is still one of the most tolerant countries in the world.

As a result, you have people from all backgrounds and cultures trying to make it big. Would you be okay with British Pakistanis not getting jobs in the UK because they are not “British British”?
 
So are you among the ones who said before the match that kiwis deserve to lose and england deserve to win?

Nope every game on it's merit! I did actually say at a job interveiw that I thought England would win the cup before a ball was bowled. I deemed them favourites but not deserved winners as with sport you don't know which team will turn up on the day..
.star player injured, out of form etc

I just agree re the poaching of players.
 
So are you among the ones who said before the match that kiwis deserve to lose and england deserve to win?

Nope every game on it's merit! I did actually say at a job interveiw that I thought England would win the cup before a ball was bowled. I deemed them favourites but not deserved winners as with sport you don't know which team will turn up on the day..
.star player injured, out of form etc

I just agree with Mamoon re the poaching of players (or not in this case). How can they be blamed if other countries for what ever reason (lack of oppourtinuties, money) cannot hold on to their players.
 
Of course they wouldn’t have deserved, just like Pakistan didn’t deserve to win this World Cup. However, sports can be very harsh and the deserving team doesn’t always win, but I am glad that they did this time.
You come across as a very entitled person!!
Let me make you aware that in sports, nobody is entitled to win anything, thats why sports are the great leveller, doesn't matter if you are rich or poor, black or white, a believer or athiest, sports are won by the team who plays best on the day(as long as the rules are FAIR)!!!
 
Morgan not being the next big thing, he was made captain of the english odi team and is credited for changing the way england play odi cricket and for masterminding the england world cup victory!
Yeah not the next big thing, but INVALUABLE, to the england cause!!

The mindset change had to come from above Morgan's pay grade. If he was great why did they not get out of the group stages in 2015. It takes more than one player and a change of culture within the team.
 
It is not unfair because other teams had the opportunity to put themselves in the same position but they didn’t.

England dropped 9 players after the 2015 World Cup, completely changed their playing style, became the number 1 team in the world and even changed their own rules to fast-track a fast bowler because they felt they needed more firepower in bowling.

England did everything they could (or any team can) to win this World Cup. To see them fall short would have been utterly heartbreaking and an insult to all their efforts and hard work.

I now really do believe that they had divine help in the final, it want luck or fluke - it was God rewarding them for there sincere efforts and their desperation to win the World Cup.

No team was more hungry and desperate than England to win the World Cup. They didn’t leave anything to chance.

Others team limped into the tournament as a 6th ranked side praying for miracles, while some ignored their middle-order problems and there were also teams that left their preparation too late etc.

England though covered all the basis and they started their preparation earlier than any team. This is was England’s World Cup because they earned the right.

In spite of the labels of chokers and mental midgets, the resilience these English players showed in this World Cup was nothing but inspirational. They have nerves of steel.

Sorry but this logic is beyond ridiculous. If we follow this, in all sports the team who were favourites going into the tournament will always ‘deserve’ to win because they had ‘prepared for it best’.

You completely ignore the multitude of other factors. For example, England have been ‘lucky’ to strike gold with a couple of brilliant white ball players at the top of the order - Roy and Bairstow. You could argue they develope those players but to get the players with that potential together is quite lucky.

Also with the number of foreign talent in their lineup, you could argue they have half English parents or that they moved to England when they were young. But the fact is, England is a developed country, with a strong well-paying county system and the legacy of a global empire. So ofcourse it will attract immigrants. This is not to put them down. It it’s to say that non cricketing factors have led to a significant proportion of the team. What chances to countries like Pakistan or Sri Lanka have of getting that same advantage?

But it also means, with that much talent at their disposal, they don’t necessarily need to be the hardest working team to be the best.

And that’s the second point - you have absolutely NO basis for saying England have prepared for this World Cup more than other teams. Just because they did an overhaul in 2015 does not mean they prepared more. Just because they performed better than other teams ... does not mean they prepared more, they are simply just better players.

I would argue the complete opposite of your logic. If a low ranked team gets to the final and wins, they deserve it far more. They are clearly an inferior team as shown by the results leading up to the World Cup. However during the World Cup, they have raised their game, worked hard and held their composure to beat stronger teams on paper.
 
Nope every game on it's merit! I did actually say at a job interveiw that I thought England would win the cup before a ball was bowled. I deemed them favourites but not deserved winners as with sport you don't know which team will turn up on the day..
.star player injured, out of form etc

I just agree with Mamoon re the poaching of players (or not in this case). How can they be blamed if other countries for what ever reason (lack of oppourtinuties, money) cannot hold on to their players.
Thats cool!!
But why not just have a international club tournament with multinational teams, instead of having an international tournament with national teams. Then every team can enlist players from around the world to help them win, provided they can convince the players to join their team and have the financial resources to do so!

There is a deeper reason to avoid such behaviour, if you recruit players from abroad, then you are depriving players from your country to play. In this instance david wiley , who was an integral part of the england team becoming the no.1 ranked odi team in the world, was ruthlessly dropped 1 month before the start of the wc, so that archer could play for england in the wc.
In the long run, if this type of behaviour continues, kids will not bother to take up the sport, as they know that they will not be only competing with their fellow countrymen but also with players from abroad!!
Its not good for english cricket in the long run, as the ecb have seen this policy of recruiting overseas players has been successful and will repeat it, instead of nuturing home grown talent and at the same time depriving other countries of success, by poaching their upcoming star players!!!0
 
Sorry but this logic is beyond ridiculous. If we follow this, in all sports the team who were favourites going into the tournament will always ‘deserve’ to win because they had ‘prepared for it best’.

You completely ignore the multitude of other factors. For example, England have been ‘lucky’ to strike gold with a couple of brilliant white ball players at the top of the order - Roy and Bairstow. You could argue they develope those players but to get the players with that potential together is quite lucky.

Also with the number of foreign talent in their lineup, you could argue they have half English parents or that they moved to England when they were young. But the fact is, England is a developed country, with a strong well-paying county system and the legacy of a global empire. So ofcourse it will attract immigrants. This is not to put them down. It it’s to say that non cricketing factors have led to a significant proportion of the team. What chances to countries like Pakistan or Sri Lanka have of getting that same advantage?

But it also means, with that much talent at their disposal, they don’t necessarily need to be the hardest working team to be the best.

And that’s the second point - you have absolutely NO basis for saying England have prepared for this World Cup more than other teams. Just because they did an overhaul in 2015 does not mean they prepared more. Just because they performed better than other teams ... does not mean they prepared more, they are simply just better players.

I would argue the complete opposite of your logic. If a low ranked team gets to the final and wins, they deserve it far more. They are clearly an inferior team as shown by the results leading up to the World Cup. However during the World Cup, they have raised their game, worked hard and held their composure to beat stronger teams on paper.
Very good post sir!!
 
The mindset change had to come from above Morgan's pay grade. If he was great why did they not get out of the group stages in 2015. It takes more than one player and a change of culture within the team.
Morgan was appointed england captain, just before the 2015 world cup, replacing alistair cook.
Morgan had no time to prepare his side or help choose the players he wanted in the team. All this happened after the 2015 wc and we see the results- england are world champions!
This credit being given to morgan, does not come from me but from evryone associated with english cricket, from the players, the management, th ecb, the cricket commentators and the media in general!!!
 
I am not having it either way. Why shouldn’t England avail the opportunity of selecting a player regardless of where he is from originally? England is a multicultural country and in spite of the rising xenophobia because of Brexit, it is still one of the most tolerant countries in the world.

As a result, you have people from all backgrounds and cultures trying to make it big. Would you be okay with British Pakistanis not getting jobs in the UK because they are not “British British”?
You are being silly now!
Why should someone who is born in a country but has an overseas heritage not be allowed to work in the country of their birth?

The point is no country should be allowed to pick players from other countries to make their national team stronger. Forget everything else, you are depriving the other countries of their upcoming stars!!
 
Is the onus not on the "other countries" to keep their talent? How many players from India or Pakistan have been poached?
 
Is the onus not on the "other countries" to keep their talent? How many players from India or Pakistan have been poached?
Hard to keep your talent if you are a poor country and do not have the financial resources to keep hold of your players from richer countries!!

Imran tahir is the most successful pakistani born and bred player to play for another country - SA.
imran would argue that he was willing to play for pakistan, but was not given the opportunity. However, it is arguable that just because you are not selected for your national side, does not mean you can just join another national team. This makes a mockery of the term "national team" and should be changed to "multinational team', i.e the england multinational team!!!😊
 
You manged 2 find 1 player and that who didn't play for England but South Africa who can't keep hold of their own talent! NZ has had it's fair share of poached players....Grant Elliot, Roger Twose, Luke Ronchi (he played for the main Australia side not u19), deepak patel played for Worcestershire but was always over looked and therefore moved. Just some examples i am sure I am missing some but professional sport is a job and you will move to get one i guess.
 
You manged 2 find 1 player and that who didn't play for England but South Africa who can't keep hold of their own talent! NZ has had it's fair share of poached players....Grant Elliot, Roger Twose, Luke Ronchi (he played for the main Australia side not u19), deepak patel played for Worcestershire but was always over looked and therefore moved. Just some examples i am sure I am missing some but professional sport is a job and you will move to get one i guess.
Most of the english players from overseas are from sourth africa and not india or pakistan!

Alan lamb
Robin smith
Kevin petersen
Jason roy
Andrew strauss
And many others!!
Yes cricketers can go overseas looking for work, but it should be in domestic leagues, not in the international side!
 
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Why the “they deserved it” concept doesnt apply to NZ.

Brendon Mccullam changed their cricketing culture and style of play before 2015, they put in a lot of hardwork to change the style of game they played and selected the players which could adhere to the culture set by Bmac. They have been consistently ranked one of the top ODI sides since then.

They played the final of 2015 WC, playing impressive and remarkable cricket throughout the WC and were consistently a good team even before that due to the culture they brought it. Now even in 2019 WC they were ranked 3 in ODI rankings so in terms of consistency as people are saying England showed was shown by NZ as well.

So by “England deserved it” theory why didnt NZ deserve to win the 2015 world cup after completing changing their cricketing style, culture and put in the hard yards. They were the most changed and improved side in 2015 WC. Now again in 2019 why didnt NZ deserve it? As they started their efforts much before 2015, reached finals of the consecutive WCs but why is that only Eng deserved it?

Yes Eng was really poor in 2015 while NZ was pretty decent even in 2011 but that cant undermine the hardwork NZ put in and played 2 consecutive WC finals because of that.

So according to me Eng deserved it theory can also be applied to NZ.
 
Why the “they deserved it” concept doesnt apply to NZ.

Brendon Mccullam changed their cricketing culture and style of play before 2015, they put in a lot of hardwork to change the style of game they played and selected the players which could adhere to the culture set by Bmac. They have been consistently ranked one of the top ODI sides since then.

They played the final of 2015 WC, playing impressive and remarkable cricket throughout the WC and were consistently a good team even before that due to the culture they brought it. Now even in 2019 WC they were ranked 3 in ODI rankings so in terms of consistency as people are saying England showed was shown by NZ as well.

So by “England deserved it” theory why didnt NZ deserve to win the 2015 world cup after completing changing their cricketing style, culture and put in the hard yards. They were the most changed and improved side in 2015 WC. Now again in 2019 why didnt NZ deserve it? As they started their efforts much before 2015, reached finals of the consecutive WCs but why is that only Eng deserved it?

Yes Eng was really poor in 2015 while NZ was pretty decent even in 2011 but that cant undermine the hardwork NZ put in and played 2 consecutive WC finals because of that.

So according to me Eng deserved it theory can also be applied to NZ.

Apparently as per some posters, there is a time frame also involved in this theory. Only efforts in last 4 years count :yk
 
Most of the english players from overseas are from sourth africa and not india or pakistan!

Alan lamb
Robin smith
Kevin petersen
Jason roy
Andrew strauss
And many others!!
Yes cricketers can go overseas looking for work, but it should be in domestic leagues, not in the international side!

Yes many have played (first 2 due no South Africa being barred and Wessels played for Australia and then played for South Africa when they came back). It probably is still a throwback to the history of so many having played for Engalnd and that many South African used the quota system as an excuse to leave and qualify ( even though the KP wasn't the player he was until he had spent years at Nottinghamshire).

The reason there aren't any Indian or Pakistanis playing is because there isn't parent who is British so these players have some link. Players like Steve Smith had been linked to England as he has an English mother so all these people have a family connection.
 
I don't know all the player's family background, but some will have family connections to england.
But if a player has been born and bred in another country or spent the vast majority of their life in another country, learning their cricket in that country and utilising that countries facilities, then i believe it is wrong for another country to poach that player, especially if they are over 18 years old i.e. an adult.
 
In this team only Archer and Morgan fit that bill no one else. There is no rule against it ( certain criteria is applied in s9me sports)and look around any sport it happens people change countries for sport (must admit a fair few of those end up in the UK).
 
In this team only Archer and Morgan fit that bill no one else. There is no rule against it ( certain criteria is applied in s9me sports)and look around any sport it happens people change countries for sport (must admit a fair few of those end up in the UK).
Morgan and archer were 2 of the most important players in this england world cup winning team! Could england have won the world cup without them?
In england they cut the residency rule from 7 years to 4 years, so that archer could qualify to play for england in this world cup!
I guess its legal, but i would argue its immoral!!
 
7 year rule was unique to ECB and now they are inline with the rest of the world. How do you know that Tom Curran couldn't have caused havoc if he played (natural choice if no Archer, yes a South African but had completed his residency in 2015 so in his late teens)?
 
7 year rule was unique to ECB and now they are inline with the rest of the world. How do you know that Tom Curran couldn't have caused havoc if he played (natural choice if no Archer, yes a South African but had completed his residency in 2015 so in his late teens)?

Then why didn't england pick tom curran?
Anyway, we can go round and round in circles, its best to agree to disagree!
You are a good sparring partner, i have to go, the mrs has a list of chores for me to do, but i look forward to sparring with you again soon, but on a different topic, i think we have done this one to death!
 
Yes let's agree to disagree! I have followed the game for a long time since the late 80s and cricket was a love I shared with my late father (he installed sky for us in 1992). So not a casual fan and like to think I can go toe to toe on cricket at least.

Enjoy the chores!
 
Yes let's agree to disagree! I have followed the game for a long time since the late 80s and cricket was a love I shared with my late father (he installed sky for us in 1992). So not a casual fan and like to think I can go toe to toe on cricket at least.

Enjoy the chores!
We are quite similar, remakably!
I was introduced to cricket in the early/ mid 80s by my late father.

Yes you certainly can go toe to toe, you had me on the ropes a few times!

Look forward to round 2!
Not looking forward to my chores though lol!
 
The point is no country should be allowed to pick players from other countries to make their national team stronger. Forget everything else, you are depriving the other countries of their upcoming stars!!

Roy and Stokes were 10 when they came to England. They were not "upcoming stars" in South Africa and New Zealand respectively. The likes of Moeen and Rashid were born in England.

As far as Archer is concerned, West Indies cricket lost a talent like him because of their own incompetence. He played 3 U-19 matches for them in 2014, but for some reason, they didn't pick him for the 2014 U-19 World Cup. Also, Barbados never gave him a F/C debut. England did not deprive West Indies; West Indies deprived themselves by not recognising his talent.

Why shouldn't have England taken advantage of West Indies' stupidity? No country in England's position would have turned down someone like Archer.

Morgan is the only player where you can make a decent argument that England deprived Ireland of possibly their greatest ever talent. However, he wanted to play for England from a young age and had a UK passport. Why should England have refused to select a talent like him?

It is very easy to take the moral high ground now, but when quality players are knocking on your door and are eligibility to play for you, who in their right mind will say no because they are originally from XYZ country?
 
Roy and Stokes were 10 when they came to England. They were not "upcoming stars" in South Africa and New Zealand respectively. The likes of Moeen and Rashid were born in England.

As far as Archer is concerned, West Indies cricket lost a talent like him because of their own incompetence. He played 3 U-19 matches for them in 2014, but for some reason, they didn't pick him for the 2014 U-19 World Cup. Also, Barbados never gave him a F/C debut. England did not deprive West Indies; West Indies deprived themselves by not recognising his talent.

Why shouldn't have England taken advantage of West Indies' stupidity? No country in England's position would have turned down someone like Archer.

Morgan is the only player where you can make a decent argument that England deprived Ireland of possibly their greatest ever talent. However, he wanted to play for England from a young age and had a UK passport. Why should England have refused to select a talent like him?

It is very easy to take the moral high ground now, but when quality players are knocking on your door and are eligibility to play for you, who in their right mind will say no because they are originally from XYZ country?

Agreed, all this "World XI has won the WC" and "England has poached players from other countries" is just a load of nonsense.

As you mentioned it proves how England are one of the most tolerant countries who do not comprise on meritocracy regardless of religion, skin colour, ethnic origin, sexual orientation and etc.

I appreciate this is slightly off-topic, but I do think it was a poor decision by Ashley Giles (who I strongly dislike) to discard Hales out of the WC squad. If Stokes can come back into the team after the Bristol brawl ( a decision I approve) then why drop Hales? - for James Vince of all players :))
 
Agreed, all this "World XI has won the WC" and "England has poached players from other countries" is just a load of nonsense.

As you mentioned it proves how England are one of the most tolerant countries who do not comprise on meritocracy regardless of religion, skin colour, ethnic origin, sexual orientation and etc.

I appreciate this is slightly off-topic, but I do think it was a poor decision by Ashley Giles (who I strongly dislike) to discard Hales out of the WC squad. If Stokes can come back into the team after the Bristol brawl ( a decision I approve) then why drop Hales? - for James Vince of all players :))
[MENTION=131701]Mamoon[/MENTION] I should also add continuing on the topic of Hales. This could have easily backfired since Roy was unable to play against Sri Lanka and Australia - both games lost by England! Not to forget Vince failed in both contests as well.
 
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You have made some excellent points. I will take my time to answer them individually.

Sorry but this logic is beyond ridiculous. If we follow this, in all sports the team who were favourites going into the tournament will always ‘deserve’ to win because they had ‘prepared for it best’.

That is true, isn't it? Usually in every tournament, there is one (or more) teams that deserve to win more than others. That of course doesn't mean that they always win.

You completely ignore the multitude of other factors. For example, England have been ‘lucky’ to strike gold with a couple of brilliant white ball players at the top of the order - Roy and Bairstow. You could argue they develope those players but to get the players with that potential together is quite lucky.

As I have stated numerous times, England were definitely lucky to turn things around so quickly because they already had players like Roy, Bairstow, Buttler, Stokes etc. in the system. If they didn't have these players, it would have taken them longer for their change of mindset to bear fruit.

However, these players were in the system before the 2015 World Cup as well, but England did not have the right mindset. They moved on from players like Cook (just before the World Cup), Anderson, Broad, Bell etc. ruthlessly. They deserve credit for dropping these players ruthlessly even though they almost won them the Champions Trophy in England in 2013.
Also with the number of foreign talent in their lineup, you could argue they have half English parents or that they moved to England when they were young. But the fact is, England is a developed country, with a strong well-paying county system and the legacy of a global empire. So ofcourse it will attract immigrants. This is not to put them down. It it’s to say that non cricketing factors have led to a significant proportion of the team. What chances to countries like Pakistan or Sri Lanka have of getting that same advantage?

But it also means, with that much talent at their disposal, they don’t necessarily need to be the hardest working team to be the best.

England have a very small talent pool when it comes to white. The entire population over England is about 60 million (more than 3 times less than Pakistan), and the population of the white British is falling, and most of them end up playing football anyway.

As a result, in spite of benefiting from Asian minorities as well as getting players from South Africa, England's talent pool is still very small compared to Pakistan, and thus attracting immigrants hasn't really given them an advantage over a country like Pakistan, who will always have far more cricketers to choose from and far more cricket enthusiasts to sell them the sport.

Sri Lanka though is a tiny country and they have done very well to stay competitive, thanks largely to their very strong school cricket culture.

And that’s the second point - you have absolutely NO basis for saying England have prepared for this World Cup more than other teams. Just because they did an overhaul in 2015 does not mean they prepared more. Just because they performed better than other teams ... does not mean they prepared more, they are simply just better players.

My basis is how the moved on from their Test-style players ruthlessly in a very short period of time, gave chances to attacking players and adopted a clear strategy of how they wanted to move forward. Which other team prepared more than England? Any examples?

India in spite of having the biggest talent pool in the world and the IPL have completely failed to build a middle-order in years. I refuse to believe that they are no proper number 4 and number 5 batsmen in India, but it is just that they have planned poorly and have underestimated the importance of adding depth to their lineup.

Australia have had zero impact on ODIs in the last 3 years. Apart from getting smashed by England a dozen times, what exactly what have they done in ODIs? They left their preparation to the last minute and by the time they gained momentum with the wins over India and Pakistan right before the World Cup, it was too late. You could tell from their team combination that they haven't put much thought into some of the selections.

Pakistan have played like a minnow for two years and have completely ignored the non-performers in the team including the captain himself. They entered the World Cup as a 6th ranked team and a 13 match losing streak, hoping for miracles and magic and 1992.

South Africa have failed to inject new blood into their batting lineup. They carried deadweights like Amla and Duminy to the World Cup and carried Steyn who cannot bowl a single spell without getting injured. Yet another team that floundered in the World Cup because of poor decisions and poor planning.

I can write about other teams as well. Which team exactly prepared better than England for this World Cup?

I would argue the complete opposite of your logic. If a low ranked team gets to the final and wins, they deserve it far more. They are clearly an inferior team as shown by the results leading up to the World Cup. However during the World Cup, they have raised their game, worked hard and held their composure to beat stronger teams on paper.

In my view, it greatly depends on the team. For example, if a team like Afghanistan, Bangladesh or even Sri Lanka play the cricket of their lives and ends up winning the World Cup, you can say that they deserve it. However, when a team like Pakistan makes no concrete effort to prepare, makes idiotic decisions, doesn't push the panic button after years of pathetic performances ends up winning the World Cup, they definitely don't deserve it, because they don't deserve to have things go their way because of their ill-planning and lack of respect towards the game.

We won the Champions Trophy as an 8th ranked team, but we made a complete mockery of that tournament and devalued its prestige after playing like minnows after the Champions Trophy. That is not a sustainable model for success and you cannot learn anything from it. On the other hand, England have set the bar for others to follow - they have set standards, because they achieved success through a process.

Pakistan's preparation for the 2023 World Cup should start today and they should be ruthless with dropping players who don't fit the style of play that they want to impose. Unfortunately, we will still be 5th or 6th in 2023 and will once again try to replicate 1992.
 
[MENTION=131701]Mamoon[/MENTION] I should also add continuing on the topic of Hales. This could have easily backfired since Roy was unable to play against Sri Lanka and Australia - both games lost by England! Not to forget Vince failed in both contests as well.

Stokes is a crucial player and there was never a chance of them dropping him for good. They were always going to find a justification for him.

As far as Hales is concerned, England don't know what to do with him. They either put him on the bench or try to awkwardly accommodate him at #3 when they get fed up with Moeen, who was expected to play a big role in this World Cup. They value Vince's talent and thought he would do well as a backup opener, but he completely bottled it and it almost backfired for England.

Dropping him in hindsight was definitely a mistake, and he must be devastated at not being part of this World Cup winning squad.
 
I don't believe in winning ICC tournaments by flukes. If Pakistan win, I will say they deserve it.

Btw what happened to Pakistan being more fun in knockouts than NZ ? :)))

I guess NZ proved many wrong as nobody expected them to beat India and almost win the WC against Eng in the final.

But we will never know what Pak could have done in the KOs.
 
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I guess NZ proved many wrong as nobody expected them to beat India and almost win the WC against Eng in the final.

But we will never know what Pak could have done in the KOs.

India would have beaten Pakistan in the semis.
 
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