How many greats are there in the current game?

[gazza619]

I can only think of Virat Kohli. Isn't this ridiculous that so much cricket is being played these days, so much money, and yet you cannot find great players.

This seems like the worst era ever. Dont get me wrong, there are many class players still around (Amla, Root, Starc) but in my opinion none of them will make ATG list.

Is this purely because that there is a shortage of world class bowlers? I think that great bowlers make great batsmen. Is there any way that bowling talent can be revived? WI downfall is the worst thing ever happened to the beautiful game of cricket.

 

[axis]

I can only think of Virat Kohli. Isn't this ridiculous that so much cricket is being played these days, so much money, and yet you cannot find great players.

This seems like the worst era ever. Dont get me wrong, there are many class players still around (Amla, Root, Starc) but in my opinion none of them will make ATG list.

Is this purely because that there is a shortage of world class bowlers? I think that great bowlers make great batsmen. Is there any way that bowling talent can be revived? WI downfall is the worst thing ever happened to the beautiful game of cricket.

Steyn ?

 

[Proactive_]

Kohli is hardly a great. The guy averages 22 in 8 ODI Tournament Finals he has been a part of and averages 47 in Tests away from home in the most batting friendly era in history. Most of his hype is predicated on bashing toothless attacks on flat tracks in JAMODIs where the opposition teams haven't even been playing their full strength attacks.

The closest one to being a great player from players who have made their debuts from 09-10 onwards would be Steve Smith.

 

[the_outsider]

James Anderson, Steyn and Shakib Al Hassan. Those are obvious picks who are still playing.

Dhoni is still a great, regardless of his last 2 years. Same goes for Malinga who is still playing.

Rabada is certainly on his way to becoming a future great.

Then there's Taylor and Boult from NZ. It's crazy how underrated those two players are here on PP.

Another underrated test great is Herath.

 

[Buffet]

Steyn is the only confirmed ATG right now, but then he has a case for the best 3 pacers in test format.

I think you will get 2-3 more players from current ranks joining it, but it's not certain.

 

[anoop]

Kohli is hardly a great. The guy averages 22 in 8 ODI Tournament Finals he has been a part of and averages 47 in Tests away from home in the most batting friendly era in history. Most of his hype is predicated on bashing toothless attacks on flat tracks in JAMODIs where the opposition teams haven't even been playing their full strength attacks.

The closest one to being a great player from players who have made their debuts from 09-10 onwards would be Steve Smith.

Played important role in two of the most important matches. WC final with 36 and 40+ in (reduced to T20 ) Champion trophy final 2013. There is nothing called JAMODI in existence outside pakpassion and cricket is played on field not forums.

 

[gazza619]

Yeah on second thoughts probably Steyn can be in the list alongside Amla. Sorry I dont think Jimmy Anderson is an ATG.

 

[the_outsider]

Yeah on second thoughts probably Steyn can be in the list alongside Amla. Sorry I dont think Jimmy Anderson is an ATG.

Steyn is definitely a modern ATG.

And if you think Amla is an ATG then I can't understand why you would say that the fast bowler with the highest wickets in Test cricket is not an ATG.

Those two things can't be true simultaneously.

 

[gazza619]

If you think Amla is an ATG then I can't understand why you would say that the fast bowler with the highest wickets in Test cricket is not an ATG.

Those two things can't be true simultaneously.

Amla has scores runs in all formats, hasnt he?

Anderson is a bit restricted. Plays only test cricket and mostly useful in seaming conditions.

 

[Proactive_]

Played important role in two of the most important matches. WC final with 36 and 40+ in (reduced to T20 ) Champion trophy final 2013. There is nothing called JAMODI in existence outside pakpassion and cricket is played on field not forums.

Kohli in ODI WC Knockouts:

24
9
35
3
1

5 failures out of 5. That's dreadful at the grandest stage that ODI cricket has to offer.

 

[jeetu]

Steve Smith is nearly ATG , Kohli has a very good chance to join thatr group.

 

[Buffet]

Steve Smith is nearly ATG , Kohli has a very good chance to join thatr group.

Rabada is likely to join that list, but a long way to go.

 

[gazza619]

Kohli in ODI WC Knockouts:

24
9
35
3
1

5 failures out of 5. That's dreadful at the grandest stage that ODI cricket has to offer.

I know stats can someones go against you. Performance in World Cups are a good measure of someone's success but is not the only measure. Kohli is still a clutch player and done too well on far too many ocassions and is widely recognised as an ATG.

 

[bujhee kom]

Very few players are true ATG in Tests. You have to be a serious contender for an AT X1, atleast the XT XI B side.

Numerous greats, few ATGs.

Steyn is the only one.

VK, Smith may get there.

 

[Rahul1]

Kohli is hardly a great. The guy averages 22 in 8 ODI Tournament Finals he has been a part of and averages 47 in Tests away from home in the most batting friendly era in history. Most of his hype is predicated on bashing toothless attacks on flat tracks in JAMODIs where the opposition teams haven't even been playing their full strength attacks.

The closest one to being a great player from players who have made their debuts from 09-10 onwards would be Steve Smith.

You can whine all you want. Kohli is already a ATG in ODIs and T20Is and its only a matter of time for him to become an ATG in tests too. You can keep whining for all i care.

 

[the_outsider]

Amla has scores runs in all formats, hasnt he?

Anderson is a bit restricted. Plays only test cricket and mostly useful in seaming conditions.

Doesn't matter. He is at the top of the pile. Amla is far away the top in all the formats. Being the best means being at the top. Jimmy is and Amla is not.

If you disregard 550 odd test wickets you might as well disregard cricket as a whole

 

[the_outsider]

Very few players are true ATG in Tests. You have to be a serious contender for an AT X1, atleast the XT XI B side.

Numerous greats, few ATGs.

Don't understand this logic at all. ATG lists should be a percentage of the number of players who have played crikcet - like the top 1% or top 5%. Not a static number like top 11 or top 22.

Hundreds, perhaps thousands players have played cricket since 1980. What is the logic in having only 11 ATG when only 200-300 people played cricket and also when 2000-3000 people have played it?

 

[jeetu]

James Andserson presently has 564 wickets @26.74 average. To be bonafide ATG it should be under 25. But biggest issue is his away record - 196 wickets @32.62.

He will be considered on par with Kumble. Great at home , decent away , bucket loads of wickets overall.

 

[Ab Fan]

Kohli
Smith
Steyn

Anderson(50-50)

 

[gazza619]

Doesn't matter. He is at the top of the pile. Amla is far away the top in all the formats. Being the best means being at the top. Jimmy is and Amla is not.

If you disregard 550 odd test wickets you might as well disregard cricket as a whole

Anderson's bowling average is 33 away from home in tests. Doesn't stack up for me sorry.
On the other hand Amla's batting average is 47 (home and away tests). He averages 50 in ODIs and 34 in T20s.
Anderson > Amla is the joke of the week for me.

 

[the_outsider]

Anderson's bowling average is 33 away from home in tests. Doesn't stack up for me sorry.
On the other hand Amla's batting average is 47 (home and away tests). He averages 50 in ODIs and 34 in T20s.
Anderson > Amla is the joke of the week for me.

Idk what logic you are using to compare a batsman and a bowler with averages.

All I know is that Jimmy is the 4th highest test wicket-taker of all time. And Amla isn't in the top 10 in any format. In fact, he isn't even top 30 in ODIs. Even though he is batting in the best era for batsmen.

 

[the_outsider]

James Andserson presently has 564 wickets @26.74 average. To be bonafide ATG it should be under 25. But biggest issue is his away record - 196 wickets @32.62.

He will be considered on par with Kumble. Great at home , decent away , bucket loads of wickets overall.

Who exactly came up with this rule?

564 wickets and 619 wickets are not a matter of joke. Kumble and Anderson are no 3 and no 4 respectively on the all-time highest wicket-taker list. That alone is enough to make them ATGs.

This kind of logic can only be found on the internet. I have never seen a former player say things like this because they know that no run or wicket comes easy in international cricket.

 

[Stewie]

None.... except maybe Steyn and rabada

 

[Ab Fan]

AB is an ATG as well. averages 50 in all formats except gully-danda format.

 

[the_outsider]

AB is an ATG as well. averages 50 in all formats except gully-danda format.

But not playing currently.

 

[gazza619]

Who exactly came up with this rule?

564 wickets and 619 wickets are not a matter of joke. Kumble and Anderson are no 3 and no 4 respectively on the all-time highest wicket-taker list. That alone is enough to make them ATGs.

This kind of logic can only be found on the internet. I have never seen a former player say things like this because they know that no run or wicket comes easy in international cricket.

You need to consider home and away performances before judging a player for ATG status.

 

[gazza619]

None.... except maybe Steyn and rabada

Rabada? Has he done anything amazing so far? I think he istoo young and needs to perform consistently for a few years to be considered.

 

[Tusker]

Kohli in ODI WC Knockouts:

24
9
35
3
1

5 failures out of 5. That's dreadful at the grandest stage that ODI cricket has to offer.

That 35 in WC Final is definitely not a dreadful failure like you claim. But then again one needs to understand the intricacies of a complex game like cricket. Its especially Harder given that you are logically challenged. But dont give up keep at it one day you will get there

 

[jeetu]

Who exactly came up with this rule?

564 wickets and 619 wickets are not a matter of joke. Kumble and Anderson are no 3 and no 4 respectively on the all-time highest wicket-taker list. That alone is enough to make them ATGs.

This kind of logic can only be found on the internet. I have never seen a former player say things like this because they know that no run or wicket comes easy in international cricket.

Longevity needs to be backed by great average and reasonably balanced stats. Truly great ones have managed to do both. Similarly i don't consider Jayawardhene as test ATG despite his runs tally close to Lara. Lara i do consider an ATG. Another case is Afridi's ODI status which is based on longevity. I don't consider him ATG either based on his career average.

 

[the_outsider]

You need to consider home and away performances before judging a player for ATG status.

No I don't agree with this. If it's someone who has played 80-90 matches, then sure.

But Jimmy has played over 160 matches. And Eng, like every other team plays at home more than anywhere else. If a player can continue to single-handedly win you home matches over 160 test, that's still an achievement a handful of few people have achieved in cricket.

And like I said - he is right at the top. Not a single fast bowler is above him. And nobody probably will ever surpass him. It doesn't matter what any other record, avg, etc is. Somebody who is right at the top is an ATG.

 

[the_outsider]

Longevity needs to be backed by great average and reasonably balanced stats. Truly great ones have managed to do both. Similarly i don't consider Jayawardhene as test ATG despite his runs tally close to Lara. Lara i do consider an ATG. Another case is Afridi's ODI status which is based on longevity. I don't consider him ATG either based on his career average.

It's not just about longevity, although that is a crucial factor for greatness.

It's not just longevity - it's the fact that he is the 4th highest wicket-taker overall and the highest among fast bowler. He is literally at the top of the table.

 

[Rahul1]

No I don't agree with this. If it's someone who has played 80-90 matches, then sure.

But Jimmy has played over 160 matches. And Eng, like every other team plays at home more than anywhere else. If a player can continue to single-handedly win you home matches over 160 test, that's still an achievement a handful of few people have achieved in cricket.

And like I said - he is right at the top. Not a single fast bowler is above him. And nobody probably will ever surpass him. It doesn't matter what any other record, avg, etc is. Somebody who is right at the top is an ATG.

So Anderson is better than McGrath, Ambrose, Donald, Wasim, Steyn etc?

 

[the_outsider]

So Anderson is better than McGrath, Ambrose, Donald, Wasim, Steyn etc?

When i said "not a single fast bowler is above him" I was talking about wickets tally.

Sure, there have been other more skillful bowlers. But cricket is a performance-based sport. Donald doesn't have 500 test wickets. Anderson does.

PS: In any case I'm not debating that McGrath or Wasim are not ATGs. I'm saying Jimmy is also an ATG.

 

[ManFan]

Anderson is a great bowler but not an ATG.

Current ATG’s include:

Kohli
AB
Steyn
Dhoni

What do you know?

Two Indians and two South Africans.

 

[gazza619]

Anderson is a great bowler but not an ATG.

Current ATG’s include:

Kohli
AB
Steyn
Dhoni

What do you know?

Two Indians and two South Africans.

Probably agree with that with potentially Amla to the list. That shows India & SA are two tops right now

 

[PakLFC]

Kohli and Anderson.

 

[IndianMafia]

Kohli , Steyn , Herath
Cook and ABD who just got retired
Potential ATG : Rabada , Bumrah , Smith , Williamson, Babar , Rashid

 

[Peshwa]

Kohli is hardly a great. The guy averages 22 in 8 ODI Tournament Finals he has been a part of and averages 47 in Tests away from home in the most batting friendly era in history. Most of his hype is predicated on bashing toothless attacks on flat tracks in JAMODIs where the opposition teams haven't even been playing their full strength attacks.

The closest one to being a great player from players who have made their debuts from 09-10 onwards would be Steve Smith.

Before England tour all PPers behind kohli because of his poor performance in England
And and now performance in ICC finals
Bhai kitne bhI threads bana lo it will not going to change the fact that kohli is ATG

 

[Executioner]

AB an ATG for me.

Some of the current greats for me(not ATG) :

Gayle
Kohli
Amla
Steyn(test ATG)
Shakib
Dhoni

Guys on the verge of being greats: Smith Warner Williamson Starc Ross Taylor.

Am I missing anyone?

 

[Hitman]

Kolhi and Steyn are the only ones playing currently who are ATG, in my opinion.

 

[Joseph Gomes]

Steyn ?

Steyn is from previous era, he debuted in mid 2000s and will retire after next WC.

 

[BaankeJi]

Kohli is surely an ATG.
So is Steve Smith.
Anderson in bowling department.

 

[hussain.r97]

Only Dale Steyn. Virat Kohli could get there if he puts up performances in crucial games like World Cup knockouts, or even in the later stages of the upcoming Test Championship. No one else currently looks like they will end up as ATGs, Smith comes to closest.

 

[anoop]

Only Dale Steyn. Virat Kohli could get there if he puts up performances in crucial games like World Cup knockouts, or even in the later stages of the upcoming Test Championship. No one else currently looks like they will end up as ATGs, Smith comes to closest.

Same doesn't apply for steyn?

 

[JattMaula]

Please don't say our supreme leader is an atg. He fails when stakes are highest.

 

[Madplayer]

First we need to clarify certain things here.

What qualifies for a great?

Performances in both ODI and Tests?

Or does it mean seperate sets of greats in ODIs and another set in tests?

For example, I think even Rohit Sharma should qualify as a modern day ODI great.

 

[hussain.r97]

Same doesn't apply for steyn?

Steyn's performances in Tests outweigh his ODI performances by far. Kohli, on the other hand, doesn't make the ATG category in Test cricket alone, it's his ODI performances that put him in the running.

 

[Arham_PakFan]

AB an ATG for me.

Some of the current greats for me(not ATG) :

Gayle
Kohli
Amla
Steyn(test ATG)
Shakib
Dhoni

Guys on the verge of being greats: Smith Warner Williamson Starc Ross Taylor.

Am I missing anyone?

Agree with this tho I would add Anderson to your list.,even if I don't like him much.

 

[Ab Fan]

Kohli , Steyn , Herath
Cook and ABD who just got retired
Potential ATG : Rabada , Bumrah , Smith , Williamson, Babar , Rashid

Cook aint an ATG. Poor in LOs and averages only 46 in tests.

Babar , not sure??

 

[Peshwa]

Steyn's performances in Tests outweigh his ODI performances by far. Kohli, on the other hand, doesn't make the ATG category in Test cricket alone, it's his ODI performances that put him in the running.

Ohh so either you need to perform better in test as compared to odi or you need to perform in icc knockout final to become ATG on PP Forum
Its really complicated
Kohli need to step up big time to become ATG. He somehow able to score few runs in England to pass one hurdle but this new standard set by PPers is very difficult and even if he miraculously able to perform in icc final one more final hurdle awaiting for him that to score centuries in 4th inning to match great Younis bhai

 

[Executioner]

Agree with this tho I would add Anderson to your list.,even if I don't like him much.

Test great only for me.

 

[Swashbuckler]

Steyn
Kohli
Smith

 

[anoop]

Virat Kohli
ABD
Smith tests
Steyn tests
Anderson tests
Rohit Sharma ODIs

 

[Robert]

Who would get into their respective National Best Ever XI ?

I follow the maxim that a champion in one era would be a champion in any era.

Steyn? But modern test batters have such weak defences, it is all about hitting for power.
Kohli? But he faces weaker bowling than some of the eighties and nineties Indian aces.
Ashwin might be on the way, but so many countries cannot play spin any more.
Williamson, not that NZ have produced many ATGs - Hadlee is the only one.

The Aussies and England test batting are at all-time lows. WI are right at the bottom of their graph, they are test minnows now.

I think that’s it.

 

[Abdul]

Azhar.

 

[hussain.r97]

Ohh so either you need to perform better in test as compared to odi or you need to perform in icc knockout final to become ATG on PP Forum
Its really complicated
Kohli need to step up big time to become ATG. He somehow able to score few runs in England to pass one hurdle but this new standard set by PPers is very difficult and even if he miraculously able to perform in icc final one more final hurdle awaiting for him that to score centuries in 4th inning to match great Younis bhai

Isn't that generally what ATG's have achieved? Most ATGs have been very consistent AND impactful test players. These days, ODI cricket needs to be taken into consideration too, and the obvious metric for impactful performances in ODIs is runs scored/wickets taken in crunch games, like ICC knockouts.

 

[the_outsider]

Please don't say our supreme leader is an atg. He fails when stakes are highest.

Who are you talking about?

 

[bujhee kom]

Don't understand this logic at all. ATG lists should be a percentage of the number of players who have played crikcet - like the top 1% or top 5%. Not a static number like top 11 or top 22.

Hundreds, perhaps thousands players have played cricket since 1980. What is the logic in having only 11 ATG when only 200-300 people played cricket and also when 2000-3000 people have played it?

Setting a percentage value is not very workable. ATGs have to be differentiated from regular greats and the only tangible basis is potential to make an ATX1.

 

[bujhee kom]

Herath is a great. He is the best ever of his type (SLA).

 

[bujhee kom]

Isn't that generally what ATG's have achieved? Most ATGs have been very consistent AND impactful test players. These days, ODI cricket needs to be taken into consideration too, and the obvious metric for impactful performances in ODIs is runs scored/wickets taken in crunch games, like ICC knockouts.

I for one do not conflate formats. Test greats and ODI greats differ. Only Test greats can be ATGs. It is the premier format.

 

[the_outsider]

Setting a percentage value is not very workable. ATGs have to be differentiated from regular greats and the only tangible basis is potential to make an ATX1.

But then that means it was so much easier to be an ATG in 1978 than it is in 2018. And it's going to be practically impossible for even the best players of 2038 to make it into the top 11.

I'm sorry. This makes absolutely no sense to me.

 

[hadi123]

Virat Kohli. Incredible player.

 

[HitWicket]

Amla has scores runs in all formats, hasnt he?

Anderson is a bit restricted. Plays only test cricket and mostly useful in seaming conditions.

Most people seem to blank the fact that anderson had a 13 year ODI career, I doubt there's going to be many more bowlers able to claim that in the coming years.

 

[Saurav]

Kohli,Steyn,Smith,Anderson

 

[jeeteshssaxena]

Herath is a great. He is the best ever of his type (SLA).

Bishan singh bedi.
Equal overall avg much better overseas stats. Wasn't he better?

 

[jeeteshssaxena]

Kohli(beast in odis, second best in test)
Smith(best test batsman)
Dale steyn
Ms dhoni(atg wkt in lois)

 

[gazza619]

First we need to clarify certain things here.

What qualifies for a great?

Performances in both ODI and Tests?

Or does it mean seperate sets of greats in ODIs and another set in tests?

For example, I think even Rohit Sharma should qualify as a modern day ODI great.

Good point. I personally think that a player who is a class player in both tests and ODIs should be on the list.

 

[Ab Fan]

In last 10 years:-

Steyn
Kohli
AB
Smith

You need to be a gun player in tests. That's the minimum to look into. Then we come into limited overs performance and peer reputation. Ofcourse, there is no statistical measure of greatness.

Herath is an SL great, not ATG. Shakib is again just a BD great. Dhoni is an ODI legend and I am currently 50-50 on Anderson. Dont think anyone else is left out.

 

[bujhee kom]

Bishan singh bedi.
Equal overall avg much better overseas stats. Wasn't he better?

Please dont be bias. Herath is better by a distance. His SR is 20 balls better. He has maintained that in an era of flat decks and over more games to boot. His average also happens to be lower. Much more 5wi snd 10 wm too.
It's not even close tbh. Herath is BY FAR the best SLA of all time.

 

[bujhee kom]

Good point. I personally think that a player who is a class player in both tests and ODIs should be on the list.

Different lists are needed. How can you conflate formats?

 

[Ab Fan]

Herath didnt do well against India, failed in his biggest test.

Flat wickets argument doesnt count for him. Like Ashwin, he has played on many spin friendly home wickets. Sl wickets are flat for pace bowlers not spinners. Away from home, he averages 36.

An SL great but not ATG.

 

[barah_admi]

Cook and AB have retired, Amla and Steyn are on their last legs. Jimmy is more and more a home track bully and... Well that's about it.

I would not label the so called fab four as great just ye but Williamson probably comes closest.

In terms of the bowlers, Starc, Shah, Hazelwood, Broad, Ashwin and a couple others may be great but they all have to either perform better across formats or in more testing conditions.

It is a pretty poor era in cricket tbh, especially when compared to the 80s and 90s.

 

[gazza619]

Different lists are needed. How can you conflate formats?

Well a player cannot be the best in every format, but as long as one is great in tests and good in ODIs (or vice versa), that is sufficient for me.

On this basis players like Younis Khan (test giant) and Rohit Sharma (ODI giant) will not make the cut (and rightly so).

Remember we are talking about all time greats here.

 

[Bilal7]

Dale Steyn, Hashim Amla, James Anderson, Virat Kohli, MS Dhoni and Shakib ul Hasan are players that will go down as greats if they retire tomorrow. Others like Yasir Shah, Root, Kane, Smith, etc. are all potential greats.

If you're talking about ATGs, then its Dale Steyn and Hashim Amla, with Kohli getting there in the future.

 

[GoUgandaCranes]

Australia has 2. Maybe three but that's an all-time low for them.

New Zealand has 1. Maybe two if Boult really hits his stride in the next few years.

Lanka and Bangla both have one.

India about 4. But with their cricket on the rise it could be about 5 or 6.

Pakistan have 0.

England have 3.

Zimbabwe have 0.

South Africa 3.

Afghanistan have 0.

West Indies have 0.

 

[Josh]

Dale Steyn, Hashim Amla, James Anderson, Virat Kohli, MS Dhoni and Shakib ul Hasan are players that will go down as greats if they retire tomorrow. Others like Yasir Shah, Root, Kane, Smith, etc. are all potential greats.

If you're talking about ATGs, then its Dale Steyn and Hashim Amla, with Kohli getting there in the future.

Lol if Hashim Amla is an ATG then Kohli is already ATG+

 

[HitWicket]

Jimmy is more and more a home track bully and...

Based on what? Anderson averages 28 away from home in the last 3 years with the majority of those games being in India, Australia or the UAE.

 

[Bilal7]

Lol if Hashim Amla is an ATG then Kohli is already ATG+

What has the "ATG+" done in test cricket?

 

[the_outsider]

Australia has 2. Maybe three but that's an all-time low for them.

New Zealand has 1. Maybe two if Boult really hits his stride in the next few years.

Lanka and Bangla both have one.

India about 4. But with their cricket on the rise it could be about 5 or 6.

Pakistan have 0.

England have 3.

Zimbabwe have 0.

South Africa 3.

Afghanistan have 0.

West Indies have 0.

Afghanistan has a potential white ball ATG in Rashid.

 

[gazza619]

Based on what? Anderson averages 28 away from home in the last 3 years with the majority of those games being in India, Australia or the UAE.

You are only looking at 3 years of away performances. Why?