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How much time does Whatmore need?

Whatmore out!

in_cutter said:
Even Bob Woolmer was unable to prevent a disaster (2007 WC). These guys are sometimes un-coachable. It's up to the players to learn from their mistakes.
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This is exactly it . Our batsmen are rubbish . Whatmore as coach should help the batsmen identify where they are going wrong and help them out . But that doesn't seem to be the case. Under Woolmer even a hack like Afridi was effective and someone like Malik who is mediocre improved with a bit of coaching .
 
Invasion 550 said:
Then the whole concept of coaches is rubbish. Why even have coaches then if they cant change anything?

Maybe, Roman Abramvoich is an ass because when he changes bad managers of chelsea his team goes on to win Champions Leagues and premier leagues.
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I agree all of pak batsman have talent its not like they are uselss as most of them have made big scores before. They just lack consistency and game planning which is the coaches job . Whatmore has not made any sort of mark on the team and should be fired. Our experimenting with foreign coaches needs to stop . Pakistani coaches always do better with our team
 
Re: Whatmore out!

How about just accepting that our team is no longer as good as it used to be.
 
Whatmore has not earned his keep. I haven't seen anything he has contributed to the team at all. Not a single selection or improvement. You get hired, reinstated for your results which are nil in his case.

Sent from my SGH-T999V using Tapatalk
 
Saqs said:
How about just accepting that our team is no longer as good as it used to be.
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It was way better when Whatmore was not there.

If you go player by player almost half the squad is not performing at the level it used to under previous coach. For Hafeez, Azhar people can say law of averages catching up but for more than half of the Xi ?
 
Jo_Don said:
I disagree. Look at Smith - one of the worst techniques in the game, but he makes it work for him. It's all in the mind, and a coach cannot think for a player. If a player does not know his game at international level, then he should not be playing at it...
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I dont think smith has a bad technique. It is just age catching up with him.
 
Saurav said:
that must means hes good coach.or was it just a fluke?:msd
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When you try to measure someone as good or bad. You see their overall performance, not their individual ones. I would never say it was a fluke because indian team played like minnows and lost at their own turf. Which is as pathetic as it can get.
 
fix ugly hooks?Look at all dismissals of shafiq...

In Zimbabwe he got out to inswingers.
In SA he was playing to out swinger away from body
In first Test he made a mess of useless ball
In Second test he is playing across the line.

If this was 1 glitch then u can blame coaches for not doing their job .
 
syedtumair said:
fix ugly hooks?Look at all dismissals of shafiq...

In Zimbabwe he got out to inswingers.
In SA he was playing to out swinger away from body
In first Test he made a mess of useless ball
In Second test he is playing across the line.

If this was 1 glitch then u can blame coaches for not doing their job .
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If you can notice this all. Why cant the coach do that? Why cant he tell that lad to fix his stupid mistakes? It wont take much to do that or will it?
 
Invasion 550 said:
If you can notice this all. Why cant the coach do that? Why cant he tell that lad to fix his stupid mistakes? It wont take much to do that or will it?
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Cuz they are not 1 mistakes?Every dismissal is different from each other...and they are basic mistake that should be rectified at domestic level.Its about mental toughness...No coach can teach u basic of batting at international level.
 
mithun_minhas said:
Whatmore cannot bat for your batsman.

Gary Kirsten could not make our trundlers bowl faster and more accurately. But he is hailed as a great coach.

Coach or Captain are only as good as their team.

Pak has tried a lot of coaches in the last decade. Has it changed the fortunes of your batting?
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agreed but he can play a part in grooming young talent. He needs to know who are the top domesitc players that he thinks can make it big.

Sticking with TTF is on him
 
You give average batsmen from your domestic like asad and azhar then expect him to turn them into gold? Not going to happen. At least give him your best available.
 
it's the selectors for selecting the same players over and over again. i'm expecting the same batting line up to take on sri lanka and get hammered too
 
The hard truth is that Pakistan lack good International standard Batsmen. The sooner it is accepted the better.

A lot of guys are hyped here on PP but when they Play against good teams they fail badly.

Pakistan need to get certified coaches for U/ 19 and Academies. Poms made progress when they hired Marsh as head coach in there Academy.

pakistan needs to have a solid plan at grass root and junior levels.
 
Can't blame the coaches.

They select weak teams and expect miracles. You could put any coach in there, this team is never going to be consistent.
 
i do hope this tour is whatmores last....and i hope he is sent in the fashion he deserves to go
 
kungfu90 said:
It was way better when Whatmore was not there.

If you go player by player almost half the squad is not performing at the level it used to under previous coach. For Hafeez, Azhar people can say law of averages catching up but for more than half of the Xi ?
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How is his coaching affecting their form though?
 
When does his contract expire? Our worst foreign coach ever comfortably, when you consider his reputation before coming here which has been destroyed anyway.
 
Mamoon_ said:
When does his contract expire? Our worst foreign coach ever comfortably, when you consider his reputation before coming here which has been destroyed anyway.
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He never did anything before coming to Pakistan except that stint with Sri Lanka 15 years ago.
 
Looks like South Africa should sack their coach as well since THEY crashed to a low total last night as well.

Or maybe there is scope for staying sane and putting the results in context.

Test series tied 1-1 against world number 1 side. That was the same result they got last time they played them in UAE. I would have loved to see them do better against SA in the second Test but the result is still par with the series win against England since England didn't have the bowlers for the conditions. South Africa do have bowlers for these tracks and they are showing it. Pakistan did well in the series regardless of how much anyone hates Whatmore.


ODI series stands at 1-1. Both sides haven't batted too well and the bowling has been good from both sides. Pakistan does need to do better but they are bound to lose a few in the middle anyhow. They are never going to be as consistent as the Aussies from a decade back but they've shown they can win this series. Its going to be closely contested anyhow. And if they lose the last game to go down 3-2 this WILL NOT BE THE FIRST TIME THEY DO IT. Its the team's fault, not that of the coach if they don't apply themselves. He is a coach, not a psychologist and not an 'Allah mian ka ferishta' to keep them from indulging in any dodgy business.

...ok, continue with the mindless bashing.
 
Yeah fire Whatmore.

Bring back Moshin Khan,

Then fire him.

And bring another foreigner.

And then fire him....

How about another fact ? That you cannot teach batsmen to bat at international level. If they suck at domestic, they suck at international too.
 
I do not think :dav would also like to continue.

It is better PCB and :dav part ways.

Pakistan needs to bring in more youngsters , even if they loose a few series. Need to settle down with the players who will be playing in WC.

Plan , what kind of players you need and thus improve the skills.
 
i understand batting is weak, but i cannot recall even 1 major innovation / strategy / improvement that I can tie back to Dav in his tenure.

during woolmer era he even made likes of Shoaib Malik perform much better with the bat, sending him one-down in one days, etc. (not saying Malik is top batter, just highlighting a fact).

nothing like that in Whatmore era.

he needs to go. might as well pay half the money to local guy, and spend rest of money saved in sending A team to tour ENG/SAF/AUS once every 3 years, that will really help.
 
He has Umer Akmal keeping wickets if you want out of the box ideas from your coach only. And Umer's level of inconsistency proves that he needs another role to hold his place in the side.

As for Whatmore wanting to part ways, I'm pretty sure he would want to go too purely because of how the team plays and the amount of pressure on him at every step of the way.

But I am not sure why there need to be more 'youngsters' in the team. Are you saying there aren't enough of them? What would you have, an under 20 side?

  • You can't replace Misbah. He is the only consistent performer in the side.
  • You can't replace Saeed Ajmal, he is the top bowler in the side.
  • You can't replace Afridi, purely because he is a good bowler and a handy batter. We need a spinner who can bat as a batsman as well. He is inconsistent as a batsman but what the reserves lack is the skill level so dropping Afridi leaves a hole.
  • That leaves Hafeez, who else would you have? Younis Khan?

The team does need some experience in the top order as well, players like Umer Amin, Nasir Jamshed and Umer Akmal play better when they have a senior player batting at the other end. Otherwise they do look directionless, especially Akmal. Replacing the 3-4 experienced guys you've got left in the ODI side with youth is not only going to make the side lose a few series (as you've said), its going to mean those players will all be playing for themselves and their careers and no one will be around to mentor them for the future. That is not how winning combinations are built.

Look at India; would Kohli be the batsman he is now if he had played with the likes of Raina, Sharma and Dhawan only? Their bowling attacks is filled with a bunch of nobodies and they produce 1-2 match wonders all the time.

Build a team is what I say. And hope that they are not corrupt/corrupted. Pakistan will do well only then.
 
Should be sacked immediately, has done nothing for our batting, absolutely nothing. Been saying that for last 1 year!
 
Gives good competition to Pybus for the most flop foreign coach we've ever had.
 
If he wins this series which looks unlikely he should be kept on. Hasn't done anything to write home about apart from winning one test against SA
 
...the kingdom of knee-jerk reactions. *rolls eyes*

Bring in ANY coach, trainer or legend...whosoever you want but these guys WILL keep failing as long as they don't want to apply themselves to the task at hand.

It may be intentional or unintentional but the problem is with the players and NOT the coach. Our problem is that we keep blaming the coach or captain and the guys who should be performing don't have to answer for their own choices.
 
So today, he didn't even bother to alarm the batsmen on the crease about the D/L situation?

He was sitting there like a statue and going with the motions like day one.

Seriously, he has been the most pathetic coach we have ever hard considering the reputation he came with.

Fire him already, Pakistan cricket can't tolerate him till February.
 
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:)) So the one time he actually could play an active part during our batting innings he just sits there.
 
bring in some good county coach , who is a certified one and can be a batting coach as well.
 
I bet pakistani team do not have guts to beat a high ranked teams....and I also bet they will lose both T20s and ODI series....clearly we can see there body language...
 
He should have been sent packing. He never really had any motivation for the job. He was only proactive on the first few months of the job where he went to see that domestic games but since then he has done nothing.
 
May be he has realized that there's no point even trying. There's a lot that goes behind the scenes in Pakistan cricket.

That said, he has been disappointing to say the least. I would not say that replacing him would yield results, but a new coach may bring in some fresh ideas for sure. May be Moin khan could do what Whatmore could not.
 
The posters criticizing whatmore were the ones who expressed the most vitriol when Lawason was appointed over whatmore because Lawson was supposed to be a 'softy'. Or disdain against Mohsin Khan.
These hindsight threads continue to separate the wheat from the chaff, on this forum.
 
So he ends his tenure without a single Test series win, including a tour to Zimbabwe.

How much time did he need?
 
We are raising the same questions about Arthur today.

Where does the problem lie?

The coaches?

The PCB?

The players selected?
 
Savak said:
We are raising the same questions about Arthur today.

Where does the problem lie?

The coaches?

The PCB?

The players selected?
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To be honest Whatmore was doing a better job in ODIs than Arthur but Arthur has bring in some new faces. The main problem is with the selection as it is not aligned with the approach we want to play the game with. How can you expect Hafeez or Azhar to play at strike rate of 90 or 100 consistently.

Other problem is with the lack of work we put in players. Like where is Mukhtar Ahmed, Nauman Anwar and even Umar Akmal, for that matter along with many others. They all have talent but are we trying to work on their game in the academy, because if we were doing we would have got at atleast one of these to win matches for us regularly.
 
Savak said:
We are raising the same questions about Arthur today.

Where does the problem lie?

The coaches?

The PCB?

The players selected?
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There is no comparison between two. The biggest problem with Whatmore was his approach. He simply did not show any enthusiasm and passion for the job, and did not have any long-term objective. By the end of his tenure, it was clear that he couldn't wait for his contract to end so that he can get out. He came with the reputation of a hard task master, but he was completely nonchalant throughout his stint.

On the other hand, Arthur's passion and desire to make things work is there for everyone to see, and you can clearly say that he knows where he wants to take Pakistan cricket. You only have to listen to their respective pressers to see the world of difference between their attitudes. Arthur has a bit of Woolmer in him, who was a big influence on his early coaching career.

Nonetheless, ultimately, Arthur will have to make things work because at the end of the day, if the results are not there nothing else matters. However, we are not at that point yet and he needs to be in charge till the World Cup.
 
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