How to reform Pakistan Army?

[LordJames]

For over 70 years Pakistan Army has ruled Pakistan like their personal fiefdom and sucked the people of Pakistan dry and separated them from their hard earned money.

Releasing Imran Khan (or XYZ) won't make any difference to Pakistan unless and until there are meaningful reforms in the structure of Pakistan Army to prevent ruling by a single person. It doesn't matter whether the COAS is a saint or sinner this position holds too much power. His powers need to be curbed without compromising the fighting strength of Pakistan Army as it is vital for the defense of Pakistan.

In my opinion, as soon as someone has the power to reform they should take few immediate steps:​

1. Organize Pakistan military command along the lines of American, Indian & Chinese and split it into Northern, Southern, Eastern, Western, Central Commands and elevate each of them to 4-star Generals, equal in rank and privilege to the COAS. This was what Turkey did to break the back of their military oppression after 2015​
2. The tenure of COAS should be constitutionally restricted to 3 years while the "Command" generals should be 4 years. This is on purpose so in the first year COAS is actually from a Junior batch! The most Senior officer without question assumes this position every 3 years.​
3. Elevate the most senior person to be "Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff Committee" from Army, Navy or Air Force and make it equivalent in rank to COAS and his tenure should also be 3 years. The most Senior officer from any branch without question assumes this position every 3 years.​
4. Elevate Pakistan Marines to a Corps and eventually raise 2-3 Corps​
5. Pakistan Supreme court should be able to rule on military adjudication matters and officers (denied justice in military courts) should be able to take their cases to Supreme Court, India introduced this reform in 1960s under Nehru​
6. High ranking civilian administrators are higher in ranks and stature to military officers and seating arrangements, media briefings should reflect it (see examples in India)​
7. A Lt Gen does not need to be "DG-ISPR", the briefings should be conducted by a civil servant or a Junior military officer assigned to the Defense department (like the rest of the world)​
8. A career Intelligence officer should be assigned to head ISI, answerable to Prime Minister and select committees of the Parliament. It is because Intelligence matters cannot be openly discussed in Parliament.​
9. All non-fighting functions (ISPR etc) should be returned to department of defense and officers returned to their primary functions of fighting.​
10. No specialised and privileged land to be granted, review all benefits. 85% of Pakistani military officers retire after 20 years OR reaching the rank of Lt Colonel/Colonel and promotion to Brigadier should be done on the basis of commitment to the Army and not because of granting of land. You don't want to serve your country, leave and good luck!​
11. DROP all reciprocal training exchanges to Sandhurst and/or West Point, a Cadet does not require specilaised training apart from PMA or other Academies​
12. All retired NCO, JCO and officers to be monitored for 3 years in all employement and business ventures by IB (Intelligence Bureau)​
13. All retired NCO, JCO and officers to be barred from leaving the country for 3 years (except Umrah where a restricted special VISA is granted), same applies for medical treament​

Give this structure 10 years and restrict it from changing in the constitution.

​

 

[psyoptica]

Good thread. Something to keep me busy for the next few days

 

[Farhan The Man]

Not possible.

Once they have fed themselves on haram money since inception, it's hard to adjust.

kuttay ki dum hamesha terri hoti hai.

 

[LordJames]

Not possible.

Once they have fed themselves on haram money since inception, it's hard to adjust.

kuttay ki dum hamesha terri hoti hai.

Turkey & Indonesia say "Hi"

The issue is not the Army but the consolidation of power and it is acknowledged by military itself and it has degraded the fighting ability of the military.

I don't care who is from a military background but the Army is seriously demoralized at this time.

 

[Farhan The Man]

I don't care who is from a military background but the Army is seriously demoralized at this time.

Rightly so. Chickens coming home to roost.

When the snake that has ravaged your home is dying, you shouldn't feel remorse. You stomp on it like there's no tomorrow.

They prey on your inherent goodness to elicit positive sentiment. Resist the temptation.

 

[LordJames]

Rightly so. Chickens coming home to roost.

When the snake that has ravaged your home is dying, you shouldn't feel remorse. You stomp on it like there's no tomorrow.

They prey on your inherent goodness to elicit positive sentiment. Resist the temptation.​

No, I didn't mean it that way.

When a youngster enters the Army its due to Patriotism and the courage to die for the country and then slowly the system corrupts this person as they rise above Colonel they are transformed except for a select few.

When we need to transform the Pakistan military, neither treat it like a snake nor dismantle its fighting ability. I believe that majority of NCO, JCO and Officers are sick to death of what they are being asked to do and due to their training they are unable to distinguish between legal and illegal orders. The training needs a reform and the Senior leadership (Brigadier & above across all Services) need a serious cull and then structures put in place so it never rises again.​

 

[Bhaijaan]

Reforming the Pakistan Army sounds great in theory but in reality, its nearly impossible.

You’re talking about an entity that’s mastered the art of controlling civilians while maintaining the illusion of democracy. It is arguably the most sophisticated dictatorship in the world today that almost never fully shows its true extent of power but generally stays in the shadows and pulls the strings from behind.

Last many decades has seen fall of many dictatorships all over the world. Pakistan isn’t even discussed. They have always played 7D chess. That’s one thing where Pakistan army’s aura is untouchable.

This is just wishful thinking and it’s frankly like expecting billionaires to vote for a 99% wealth tax on themselves.

Only a people’s revolution can overturn this situation and even then army will just start a needless war with Bharat just to give itself an excuse to take control of Pakistan again.

Pakistan really is not a country. It’s a military entity that has a country.

 

[ElRaja]

theoretically, the only way thats happening is for a large enough civil force, a political party with huge grassroots support reform the army, because anything less and the army can bully the parties. the only thing armies are afraid of is killing their own civilians en masse, in reality, nothing is happening.

 

[psyoptica]

Reforming the Pakistan Army sounds great in theory but in reality, its nearly impossible.

You’re talking about an entity that’s mastered the art of controlling civilians while maintaining the illusion of democracy. It is arguably the most sophisticated dictatorship in the world today that almost never fully shows its true extent of power but generally stays in the shadows and pulls the strings from behind.

Last many decades has seen fall of many dictatorships all over the world. Pakistan isn’t even discussed. They have always played 7D chess. That’s one thing where Pakistan army’s aura is untouchable.

This is just wishful thinking and it’s frankly like expecting billionaires to vote for a 99% wealth tax on themselves.

Only a people’s revolution can overturn this situation and even then army will just start a needless war with Bharat just to give itself an excuse to take control of Pakistan again.

Pakistan really is not a country. It’s a military entity that has a country.

Pak army isn’t invincible in politics. The separation of Bangladesh and the subsequent fall of the military dictator Yahya Khan is an example. Even now it’s not as powerful or tactical as people make them out to be. They have handled the Imran Khan situation horribly and continue to make amateur level mistakes. They have lost all the goodwill of the peoole they had established through propaganda over the last 70 plus years and now their solution to every problem is using brute force methods like stifling prominent voices by the use of weapons.
They have lost all battles on the diplomatic front and can be defeated on the military front as well if the international establishment stopped backing them.

 

[Bhaijaan]

Pak army isn’t invincible in politics. The separation of Bangladesh and the subsequent fall of the military dictator Yahya Khan is an example. Even now it’s not as powerful or tactical as people make them out to be. They have handled the Imran Khan situation horribly and continue to make amateur level mistakes. They have lost all the goodwill of the peoole they had established through propaganda over the last 70 plus years and now their solution to every problem is using brute force methods like stifling prominent voices by the use of weapons.
They have lost all battles on the diplomatic front and can be defeated on the military front as well if the international establishment stopped backing them.

So you believe

 

[psyoptica]

The army puppets in power including Sharif bros, Asif Zardari, Maryam Nawaz and Movi Fazlu need to die to untether the political cover the top generals have and someone allowed to be in power by overwhelming support of the public to have any sliver of hope to reform the army.

 

[Markhor]

Great list. Add to that removal of all subsidies and perks from the dozens of military-affiliated businesses.

Three hot borders and insurgencies in two provinces yet some of these guys are only interested in filling their pockets.

 

[LordJames]

Reforming the Pakistan Army sounds great in theory but in reality, its nearly impossible.

You’re talking about an entity that’s mastered the art of controlling civilians while maintaining the illusion of democracy. It is arguably the most sophisticated dictatorship in the world today that almost never fully shows its true extent of power but generally stays in the shadows and pulls the strings from behind.

Last many decades has seen fall of many dictatorships all over the world. Pakistan isn’t even discussed. They have always played 7D chess. That’s one thing where Pakistan army’s aura is untouchable.

This is just wishful thinking and it’s frankly like expecting billionaires to vote for a 99% wealth tax on themselves.

Only a people’s revolution can overturn this situation and even then army will just start a needless war with Bharat just to give itself an excuse to take control of Pakistan again.

Pakistan really is not a country. It’s a military entity that has a country.

Completely disagree with 7D chess! Pakistan Army leadership does not know how to play "Chess" let alone 7D chess (whatever that is).

The wartime reading material for most officers is still General Rommel and WWII tactics and not Desert Storm/Desert Shield or even latest conflicts like Nagorno-Karabakh or Ukraine War.

The "non-wartime" prep is nonexistence as it should be because its a fighting force and not geared towards Administrator or politics.

Fortunately and Thanks God, Indian military is incompetent and their equipment is vintage which makes Pakistan military look like well oiled machine in limited skirmishes, in all out war the courage of soldiers (from both sides) dictates the tactical battlefields otherwise strategically both leaderships are equally stupid!

The 1971 war was more down to stupidity of Pakistan Army (Martial Law) and alienating its own people then down to "genius" of Sam Manekshaw...No Army can call its own citizens "Harami & Ghaddar" and then defend the land, doesn't work.

 

[RizwanT20Champ]

Some cultists reaching a new low here, maligning our own country and institutions and toeing the Indian line.

 

[Varun]

Some cultists reaching a new low here, maligning our own country and institutions and toeing the Indian line.

'Toeing the Indian line' made you lose half your country and put you at odds with another nation around you. Might as well try something different, Colonel sahib.

 

[Farhan The Man]

Pakistan really is not a country. It’s a military entity that has a country.

Nailed it.

We are forever doomed as a nation.

The cancer spread too far and wide. To neutralize it means killing the whole body.

 

[RidiculousMan]

For over 70 years Pakistan Army has ruled Pakistan like their personal fiefdom and sucked the people of Pakistan dry and separated them from their hard earned money.

Releasing Imran Khan (or XYZ) won't make any difference to Pakistan unless and until there are meaningful reforms in the structure of Pakistan Army to prevent ruling by a single person. It doesn't matter whether the COAS is a saint or sinner this position holds too much power. His powers need to be curbed without compromising the fighting strength of Pakistan Army as it is vital for the defense of Pakistan.

In my opinion, as soon as someone has the power to reform they should take few immediate steps:​

1. Organize Pakistan military command along the lines of American, Indian & Chinese and split it into Northern, Southern, Eastern, Western, Central Commands and elevate each of them to 4-star Generals, equal in rank and privilege to the COAS. This was what Turkey did to break the back of their military oppression after 2015​
2. The tenure of COAS should be constitutionally restricted to 3 years while the "Command" generals should be 4 years. This is on purpose so in the first year COAS is actually from a Junior batch! The most Senior officer without question assumes this position every 3 years.​
3. Elevate the most senior person to be "Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff Committee" from Army, Navy or Air Force and make it equivalent in rank to COAS and his tenure should also be 3 years. The most Senior officer from any branch without question assumes this position every 3 years.​
4. Elevate Pakistan Marines to a Corps and eventually raise 2-3 Corps​
5. Pakistan Supreme court should be able to rule on military adjudication matters and officers (denied justice in military courts) should be able to take their cases to Supreme Court, India introduced this reform in 1960s under Nehru​
6. High ranking civilian administrators are higher in ranks and stature to military officers and seating arrangements, media briefings should reflect it (see examples in India)​
7. A Lt Gen does not need to be "DG-ISPR", the briefings should be conducted by a civil servant or a Junior military officer assigned to the Defense department (like the rest of the world)​
8. A career Intelligence officer should be assigned to head ISI, answerable to Prime Minister and select committees of the Parliament. It is because Intelligence matters cannot be openly discussed in Parliament.​
9. All non-fighting functions (ISPR etc) should be returned to department of defense and officers returned to their primary functions of fighting.​
10. No specialised and privileged land to be granted, review all benefits. 85% of Pakistani military officers retire after 20 years OR reaching the rank of Lt Colonel/Colonel and promotion to Brigadier should be done on the basis of commitment to the Army and not because of granting of land. You don't want to serve your country, leave and good luck!​
11. DROP all reciprocal training exchanges to Sandhurst and/or West Point, a Cadet does not require specilaised training apart from PMA or other Academies​
12. All retired NCO, JCO and officers to be monitored for 3 years in all employement and business ventures by IB (Intelligence Bureau)​
13. All retired NCO, JCO and officers to be barred from leaving the country for 3 years (except Umrah where a restricted special VISA is granted), same applies for medical treament​

Give this structure 10 years and restrict it from changing in the constitution.

​

This is stage 2. Pakistan's problem has been stage 1, with will.

The system is designed as such that no good man can become a CAOS.

The person who might do any of the reforms that you have mentioned will come out of the system. Whenever that happens. God knows.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

How to reform the Pakistan army? Getting their permission first might be an idea.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Just to elaborate from memory:

I'm no fan of Nawaz Sharif, but I do believe he tried to curb army powers once before and if I'm not mistaken his govt got terminated and he ended up in jail/exile.

Imran Khan ditto.

Not sure what Benazir Bhutto tried or didn't try but she ended up having bits of her carcass cleaned up off the roadside.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

By the way, not for one minute am I making any accusations here, could all just be a coincidence or bad luck.

 

[Farhan The Man]

By the way, not for one minute am I making any accusations here, could all just be a coincidence or bad luck.

But you did. Accuse them of murdering leaders and destabilization of our country.

Then felt bad enough to cushion the potential blowback. Such is that fear of this establishment

Difference is establishment brutalized first bangla bros, then sindhis, then pathans, then balochis, and now eating their own. Welcome to the club.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

But you did. Accuse them of murdering leaders and destabilization of our country.

Then felt bad enough to cushion the potential blowback. Such is that fear of this establishment

Difference is establishment brutalized first bangla bros, then sindhis, then pathans, then balochis, and now eating their own. Welcome to the club.

Lol, the only blowback on here is the mods, so have to be careful with the wording otherwise it gets removed. I'm not even that bothered about martial law, as I already said in other threads, China used authoritarian rule to grow their economy. MBS ditto in Saudi Arabia. But in Pakistan they put themselves first and that seems to filter from the top to the bottom.

 

[psyoptica]

But you did. Accuse them of murdering leaders and destabilization of our country.

Then felt bad enough to cushion the potential blowback. Such is that fear of this establishment

Difference is establishment brutalized first bangla bros, then sindhis, then pathans, then balochis, and now eating their own. Welcome to the club.

Don’t forget the urdu speakers

 

[Pakpak]

Just to elaborate from memory:

I'm no fan of Nawaz Sharif, but I do believe he tried to curb army powers once before and if I'm not mistaken his govt got terminated and he ended up in jail/exile.

Imran Khan ditto.

Not sure what Benazir Bhutto tried or didn't try but she ended up having bits of her carcass cleaned up off the roadside.

Not at all, Nawaz Sharif simply replaced Musharraf with a pliant puppet COAS as he was interested in keeping the army under his thumb and if the COAS was his puppet it was job done.

I am a PTI supporter but Imran should have fired Bajwa especially when he himself admits he knew he was about to be overthrown.

 

[Farhan The Man]

Don’t forget the urdu speakers

Yup, them as well.

But no love lost since zia created and armed mqm, similar to taliban.

Army offloaded both when it was done dirty dealing with either destructive entity. karachi still reels from the effect of mohajir bhayaas running wild on the city.

 

[Aang_The_last_airbender]

For over 70 years Pakistan Army has ruled Pakistan like their personal fiefdom and sucked the people of Pakistan dry and separated them from their hard earned money.

Releasing Imran Khan (or XYZ) won't make any difference to Pakistan unless and until there are meaningful reforms in the structure of Pakistan Army to prevent ruling by a single person. It doesn't matter whether the COAS is a saint or sinner this position holds too much power. His powers need to be curbed without compromising the fighting strength of Pakistan Army as it is vital for the defense of Pakistan.

In my opinion, as soon as someone has the power to reform they should take few immediate steps:​

1. Organize Pakistan military command along the lines of American, Indian & Chinese and split it into Northern, Southern, Eastern, Western, Central Commands and elevate each of them to 4-star Generals, equal in rank and privilege to the COAS. This was what Turkey did to break the back of their military oppression after 2015​
2. The tenure of COAS should be constitutionally restricted to 3 years while the "Command" generals should be 4 years. This is on purpose so in the first year COAS is actually from a Junior batch! The most Senior officer without question assumes this position every 3 years.​
3. Elevate the most senior person to be "Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff Committee" from Army, Navy or Air Force and make it equivalent in rank to COAS and his tenure should also be 3 years. The most Senior officer from any branch without question assumes this position every 3 years.​
4. Elevate Pakistan Marines to a Corps and eventually raise 2-3 Corps​
5. Pakistan Supreme court should be able to rule on military adjudication matters and officers (denied justice in military courts) should be able to take their cases to Supreme Court, India introduced this reform in 1960s under Nehru​
6. High ranking civilian administrators are higher in ranks and stature to military officers and seating arrangements, media briefings should reflect it (see examples in India)​
7. A Lt Gen does not need to be "DG-ISPR", the briefings should be conducted by a civil servant or a Junior military officer assigned to the Defense department (like the rest of the world)​
8. A career Intelligence officer should be assigned to head ISI, answerable to Prime Minister and select committees of the Parliament. It is because Intelligence matters cannot be openly discussed in Parliament.​
9. All non-fighting functions (ISPR etc) should be returned to department of defense and officers returned to their primary functions of fighting.​
10. No specialised and privileged land to be granted, review all benefits. 85% of Pakistani military officers retire after 20 years OR reaching the rank of Lt Colonel/Colonel and promotion to Brigadier should be done on the basis of commitment to the Army and not because of granting of land. You don't want to serve your country, leave and good luck!​
11. DROP all reciprocal training exchanges to Sandhurst and/or West Point, a Cadet does not require specilaised training apart from PMA or other Academies​
12. All retired NCO, JCO and officers to be monitored for 3 years in all employement and business ventures by IB (Intelligence Bureau)​
13. All retired NCO, JCO and officers to be barred from leaving the country for 3 years (except Umrah where a restricted special VISA is granted), same applies for medical treament​

Give this structure 10 years and restrict it from changing in the constitution.

​

I am very sure that this post is in violation of cyber laws of Pakistan. Please be careful.

 

[Extra_Cover]

Reform in theory is quite simple actually. Two easy steps:
1. Pakistan Army turn their business empire into trusts run by Boards appointed by Parliament. Army shall have no business other than arms and technology deals with other countries but this is also under the remit of Interior Ministry and signed off by Parliament.
2. Judiciary is free of bias and able to hand out verdicts against anyone in the country.

You want to reform Pakistan then simply allow "rule of law". Let judiciary hand sentences to police goons, army thugs or blackmailing politicians and see how the country slowly but surely starts towing the line of law.

 

[HalBass9]

Reform in theory is quite simple actually. Two easy steps:
1. Pakistan Army turn their business empire into trusts run by Boards appointed by Parliament. Army shall have no business other than arms and technology deals with other countries but this is also under the remit of Interior Ministry and signed off by Parliament.
2. Judiciary is free of bias and able to hand out verdicts against anyone in the country.

You want to reform Pakistan then simply allow "rule of law". Let judiciary hand sentences to police goons, army thugs or blackmailing politicians and see how the country slowly but surely starts towing the line of law.

A real change will never come without a street uprising and a bloody revolution.

The economy is expected to improve slightly in 2026 in the short term, and it will continue to do well as long as the current COAS secures another extension, which he inevitably will. However, long-term prosperity will remain elusive. The status quo will persist, and over time, people, especially those in Punjab, will forget the past atrocities committed by the PDM and the army.

Pakistan has had leaders like Imran Khan before, but there was no social media back then to broadcast events live. The military has learned from its past mistake of executing a sitting Prime Minister, as his daughter later rose to power. This time, instead of making a martyr out of him, they will either let him die in prison or release him once the economy stabilizes and his support has dwindled.

 

[Farhan The Man]

For over 70 years Pakistan Army has ruled Pakistan like their personal fiefdom and sucked the people of Pakistan dry and separated them from their hard earned money.​

True.

 

[Bhaijaan]

A slave doesn't reform his master. So just sit back like good little boys and take it. Your country is the personal property of a military entity which has imprisoned your most famous leader and is continuously violating him as per reports and every few years you are knocking at IMFs doors for a hand out to sustain day to day operations. Thats not a country.

 

[Cricket Warrior]

Pakistan Inks USD$1.5 Billion Arms Deal with Sudan, Strengthening a New Military Axis in Africa

Pakistan has sealed a USD$1.5 billion defence contract with Sudan, marking one of the largest arms export deals in its modern history, in a move that underscores Islamabad’s growing influence as a global arms supplier and Sudan’s determination to escalate its military campaign in the midst of a devastating civil war.

The agreement was finalized during the visit of a high-ranking Sudanese military delegation to Islamabad, symbolizing not only a deepening bilateral relationship but also a shift in the balance of power in Africa’s bloodiest conflict.

The arms package is remarkable for both its scale and diversity, comprising aerial, ground, and air defence systems designed to provide the Sudanese Armed Forces (SAF) with an edge over the Rapid Support Forces (RSF).

Pakistan Inks USD$1.5 Billion Arms Deal with Sudan, Strengthening a New Military Axis in Africa - Defence Security Asia

Pakistan has finalized a USD$1.5 billion arms deal with Sudan, supplying K-8 aircraft, 220 drones, armored vehicles, and HQ-9 air defence systems. The deal bolsters Sudan’s Armed Forces against the RSF, but risks escalating Africa’s deadliest war and intensifying great power rivalry in the Red...

defencesecurityasia.com

 

[LordJames]

Pakistan Inks USD$1.5 Billion Arms Deal with Sudan, Strengthening a New Military Axis in Africa

Pakistan has sealed a USD$1.5 billion defence contract with Sudan, marking one of the largest arms export deals in its modern history, in a move that underscores Islamabad’s growing influence as a global arms supplier and Sudan’s determination to escalate its military campaign in the midst of a devastating civil war.

The agreement was finalized during the visit of a high-ranking Sudanese military delegation to Islamabad, symbolizing not only a deepening bilateral relationship but also a shift in the balance of power in Africa’s bloodiest conflict.

The arms package is remarkable for both its scale and diversity, comprising aerial, ground, and air defence systems designed to provide the Sudanese Armed Forces (SAF) with an edge over the Rapid Support Forces (RSF).

Pakistan Inks USD$1.5 Billion Arms Deal with Sudan, Strengthening a New Military Axis in Africa - Defence Security Asia

Pakistan has finalized a USD$1.5 billion arms deal with Sudan, supplying K-8 aircraft, 220 drones, armored vehicles, and HQ-9 air defence systems. The deal bolsters Sudan’s Armed Forces against the RSF, but risks escalating Africa’s deadliest war and intensifying great power rivalry in the Red...

defencesecurityasia.com

@ElRaja Whats your take on this?

This article makes no sense because Pakistan doesn't make engines for MIG-21 or HQ-6 or HQ-9 so Pakistan cannot possibly sell these, so we have to interpret the article and infer as follows:

1. Pakistan is upgrading the basic Chinese K-8 to K8-P variants with additional hard points and selling them to Sudan, see first picture
2. The possibility is that Pakistan has many retired F-7PG and has lots of air frames so they are getting rid of it and selling it to Sudan, see second picture
   1. The second possibility is Pakistan is acquiring them from China and selling them on wards as both Chinese and Pakistani air forces don't use them anymore.
3. The possibility of HQ doesn't exist so again Pakistan could be buying from China and selling it OR
   1. Talha thinks that it is short-range ANZA or FAAZ, see pictures 3 or 4
4. Turkish and Pakistani charities are providing Aid to Sudan so this is a deal brokered by Turks

Danger of this deal for Pakistan

Pakistan will be pissing off the UAE as these weapons will be used against RSF

Positives of this deal for Pakistan

But Masha'Allah its a step in the right direction and gives the local defense industry a good foothold in the defense market

 

[LordJames]

Pakistani awaam did not elect its leader back in 2018 and it did not do so back in 2024.

PTI fans like to pick and choose that 2018 was fair and 2024 was unfair, but the fact is both were rigged elections. 2024 was going to PMLN. I have seen lahore, there is no way PMLN was to lose Lahore and PPP's seats were given away.

Army running the govt is a terrible thing. However, during 2018 - 2024 the PTI fan saw no issue with it. People like Bewal, KKWC, Technics and the guy who loves 69 with immy attached, they use to give us lectures on how the army is of Pakistan and if Pakistans army wouldnt be involved should it be the foreign army? This is the level of discussion these guys used to have.

Now, i actually enjoy it. Because all of sudden when the same army pulled the chair and bought back the pros, now they are going around calling our parents corrupt. Bad mouthing the army. Now their logic and reasoning that the army is of Pakistan is all in the bin.

So, we just enjoy watching them burn and foam and cry.​

Dear @Major @Mamoon @RizwanT20Champ @HalBass9 @Boyka @Technics 1210 @emran

You may laugh or mock me, but this is a serious matter: the actions of the Pakistan Army’s leadership directly impact its readiness, especially if India were to launch a conventional war. I know that all of you are fully capable of understanding plain English whether you choose to mock me and throw insults instead is up to you.

Key points about Pakistan Army structure and cohesion:​

1. The Chief of Army Staff (COAS) is supposed to serve a 4-year term.​
2. Corps Commanders serve 3-year terms.​

It’s vital that officers of the same batch serve together because they have commanded brigades concurrently. Cohesion develops from working together at critical stages:​

• Colonel: Commands a battalion or regiment.​
• Brigadier: Commands multiple battalions (a brigade) and coordinates with other brigades, the Air Force, and Navy.​
• Corps Commander: Commands a corps with prior experience and knowledge of peers.​

When a COAS’s tenure is extended—as also happened under Imran Khan—it disrupts cohesion. The Chief and Corps Commanders are no longer peers, never worked together, and that reduces combat efficiency. Similar issues occurred with Ayub Khan, Yahya Khan, Ziaul-Haq, Bajwa (due to Imran Khan), and now Asim Munir.

Asim Munir is from OTS, not PMA, so he may never command the same respect from PMA-trained officers. He should serve his term and vacate, allowing the system to work as intended.

The military system is designed for efficiency and cohesion from the brigade level upward. Officers trained to command brigades or corps cannot suddenly be effective running civilian organizations like WAPDA, PTV, PCB, etc.—it’s not done anywhere else in the world.

Why this matters:​

• The Pakistan Air Force continues to excel because its command structure remains intact.​
• Political interference in the Army is damaging combat readiness. In a conventional war with India, the Army—not the Air Force—must deploy efficiently. The longer these extensions go on, the worse the damage. Imagine senior leaders out of touch with their troops—military men must be willing to die for their leaders.​

What to do:​

• Read​
• Reflect​
• Understand​
• Correct me​

The issue of Pakistan Army interference in politics is far bigger than Imran Khan.

Thanks.



​

 

[Major]

The OTS and PMA argument is old and lame and is something related with Army walas not us civilians lol.

As for the term, when IMran gave bajwa the extention why expect rest wont do that?

 

[LordJames]

The OTS and PMA argument is old and lame and is something related with Army walas not us civilians lol.

As for the term, when IMran gave bajwa the extention why expect rest wont do that?

Dear Major,

Please read and I know that you are capable of reading and understanding.

Imran Khan made a colossal mistake but this mistake is being made before and after Imran Khan. You are intelligent enough to know that Imran Khan didn't bring Sikander MIrza, Ayub Khan, Yahya Khan, Zaiul-Haq, Musharraf etc.

As I said, you can make fun, mock me, insult me but I know that you are capable of understanding what is being said and you also know that it is not about Imran Khan & Bajwa only

When the Pakistan Army is not able to deploy efficiently against India and defend the nation in a conventional war not Limited surgical strikes, it will affect you and your family and your country.

Thanks​

 

[The Bald Eagle]

Just change the leadership

 

[LordJames]

Just change the leadership

It will not work because it has not worked in over 70 years. What needs to happen is what Erdogan did in Turkiye to address the same issue and since 2015 notice how far ahead Turkiye has moved in terms of defense production and export.

Turkiye has greatly expanded its Naval, air and ground capabilities multiple folds due to reforms in the military structure.

Basically Pakistan needs to introduce commands (like US and Turkiye) to take power away from a single 4-Star General and spread it around as a quick fix so a single Asim Munir cannot dominate and elevate Naval and Air force command to same level.

The challenge is to do this without degrading combat capability of the Armed forces.

 

[The Bald Eagle]

It will not work because it has not worked in over 70 years. What needs to happen is what Erdogan did in Turkiye to address the same issue and since 2015 notice how far ahead Turkiye has moved in terms of defense production and export.

Turkiye has greatly expanded its Naval, air and ground capabilities multiple folds due to reforms in the military structure.

Basically Pakistan needs to introduce commands (like US and Turkiye) to take power away from a single 4-Star General and spread it around as a quick fix so a single Asim Munir cannot dominate and elevate Naval and Air force command to same level.

The challenge is to do this without degrading combat capability of the Armed forces.

Pakistan need a great leader who could actually enforce civilian supremacy model. No need to malign army but just need to keep them off limits from politics

 

[Major]

It will not work because it has not worked in over 70 years. What needs to happen is what Erdogan did in Turkiye to address the same issue and since 2015 notice how far ahead Turkiye has moved in terms of defense production and export.

Turkiye has greatly expanded its Naval, air and ground capabilities multiple folds due to reforms in the military structure.

Basically Pakistan needs to introduce commands (like US and Turkiye) to take power away from a single 4-Star General and spread it around as a quick fix so a single Asim Munir cannot dominate and elevate Naval and Air force command to same level.

The challenge is to do this without degrading combat capability of the Armed forces.

Erdogan is a bad example. He caused hyper inflation in his country due to his theological policies

 

[LordJames]

Erdogan is a bad example. He caused hyper inflation in his country due to his theological policies

Dear Major,

The issue directed to you was to discuss why endless Extensions degrade the Brigade cohesion and fighting capability of the Pakistan Army, my next posts will be why it will impact the countering of the Indian Army Cold Start doctrine. You also know that it was a response to why "changing leadership" at the top will not work and has not worked in 70 years.

I know that you know that I was discussing "Military Reform" and you are discussing "Economic Reforms & Impact" but if you want to discuss the economic situation in Turkiye, we can switch topics go on a tangent and begin to discuss the economic reforms of Erdogan and its impact on Turkiye as a separate discussion.

Appreciate your time.
​

Pakistan need a great leader who could actually enforce civilian supremacy model. No need to malign army but just need to keep them off limits from politics

Pakistan needs structural Military reforms because the structure is rotten, a great leader may or may not produce that. PAF actions against India are masking the actual problems which may be realized as too little and (may be) too late

 

[LordJames]

“Do not forget that the armed forces are the servants of the people. You do not make national policy; it is we, the civilians, who decide these issues and it is your duty to carry out these tasks with which you are entrusted.”

― Muhammad Ali Jinnah​

 

[Boyka]

It will not work because it has not worked in over 70 years. What needs to happen is what Erdogan did in Turkiye to address the same issue and since 2015 notice how far ahead Turkiye has moved in terms of defense production and export.

Turkiye has greatly expanded its Naval, air and ground capabilities multiple folds due to reforms in the military structure.

Basically Pakistan needs to introduce commands (like US and Turkiye) to take power away from a single 4-Star General and spread it around as a quick fix so a single Asim Munir cannot dominate and elevate Naval and Air force command to same level.

The challenge is to do this without degrading combat capability of the Armed forces.

The bigger question is why isn’t the army answerable to an elected government. The head of the army is a political figurehead. We’re lucky the airforce is competent.

 

[IronShield]

Reform? Why would they give up their gravy train. No chance.

We laugh at the humiliation of India in May, and rightly so. But in truth, it is a pyrrhic victory for Pakistan. On the back of that, the Generals and the dynastic crime families are back incharge and firmly entrenched.

 

[RizwanT20Champ]

Dear @Major @Mamoon @RizwanT20Champ @HalBass9 @Boyka @Technics 1210 @emran

You may laugh or mock me, but this is a serious matter: the actions of the Pakistan Army’s leadership directly impact its readiness, especially if India were to launch a conventional war. I know that all of you are fully capable of understanding plain English whether you choose to mock me and throw insults instead is up to you.

Key points about Pakistan Army structure and cohesion:​

1. The Chief of Army Staff (COAS) is supposed to serve a 4-year term.​
2. Corps Commanders serve 3-year terms.​

It’s vital that officers of the same batch serve together because they have commanded brigades concurrently. Cohesion develops from working together at critical stages:​

• Colonel: Commands a battalion or regiment.​
• Brigadier: Commands multiple battalions (a brigade) and coordinates with other brigades, the Air Force, and Navy.​
• Corps Commander: Commands a corps with prior experience and knowledge of peers.​

When a COAS’s tenure is extended—as also happened under Imran Khan—it disrupts cohesion. The Chief and Corps Commanders are no longer peers, never worked together, and that reduces combat efficiency. Similar issues occurred with Ayub Khan, Yahya Khan, Ziaul-Haq, Bajwa (due to Imran Khan), and now Asim Munir.

Asim Munir is from OTS, not PMA, so he may never command the same respect from PMA-trained officers. He should serve his term and vacate, allowing the system to work as intended.

The military system is designed for efficiency and cohesion from the brigade level upward. Officers trained to command brigades or corps cannot suddenly be effective running civilian organizations like WAPDA, PTV, PCB, etc.—it’s not done anywhere else in the world.

Why this matters:​

• The Pakistan Air Force continues to excel because its command structure remains intact.​
• Political interference in the Army is damaging combat readiness. In a conventional war with India, the Army—not the Air Force—must deploy efficiently. The longer these extensions go on, the worse the damage. Imagine senior leaders out of touch with their troops—military men must be willing to die for their leaders.​

What to do:​

• Read​
• Reflect​
• Understand​
• Correct me​

The issue of Pakistan Army interference in politics is far bigger than Imran Khan.

Thanks.



​

Brother James,

By your own admission, you are not Pakistani by residency, ethnicity or nationality. I would prefer to discuss this with someone who has more skin in the game. No offense at all dear brother.

 

[Mamoon]

Let me summarize:

Army is good when it supports Imran Khan and bad when it opposes Imran.

Election is rigged when PTI loses but free and fair when PTI wins.

Most rigged elections in Pakistan history — 2008, 2013, 2024

Most fair election in Pakistan history — 2018

Source: Imran Khan’s honesty.

 

[DeadlyVenom]

Pakistan army does need reform but the country should unite behind them until the Indian thread is countered and neutralised. The next 10 years are critical for Pakistan and Indian aspirations in the region need to be cut at the knees, plus security situation in Balochistan needs to be settled to prepare for incoming Chinese investment.

There is no harm in being a military state, but the military must step out of the shadows and run the state properly, rather than pulling the strings of mainly ineffective politicians; this is where the majority of corruption and looting lies.

This is nowhere near an ideal situation but it is making the best of a bad situation. Pakistani's don't have democracy aspirations like other countries do. Nor is it needed. People are content being ruled by familial dynasties and authority and ultimately if people are being catered for they won't care too much how much money the authoritians make. Just look at the gulf or the central asian countries closer to home.

 

[hks222]

Let me summarize:

Army is good when it supports Imran Khan and bad when it opposes Imran.

Election is rigged when PTI loses but free and fair when PTI wins.

Most rigged elections in Pakistan history — 2008, 2013, 2024

Most fair election in Pakistan history — 2018

Source: Imran Khan’s honesty.

Same bajwa was most democratic and then he was also the "super king" per Sir Imran Khan.

 

[adi_62941]

Pakistan was born with this deformity called the Pakistan Armed Forces. They are one of the major stakeholders in this nation, yet one of the most stupid breeds — ruling directly for almost two to three decades, and still shamelessly claiming they have no links with politics, insisting that all their decisions are only in the nation’s interest

I don’t think anyone can reform them, because they are not just part of the system in Pakistan — they are the system itself. They are the creators of it. That is why US or all GCC states (Developed ones) directly contacts army chief for any important talk rather than elected PM.

And how can you reform the creators?

Only they themselves can stop their greedy mindset from indulging in politics and nation-building. In my view, the period between 2013 and 2016 was relatively good in terms of political-military relations. But after that, we again witnessed the rise of the army’s influence in political matters.

The only practical solution I see is that top political leaders must sit together and agree on a grand Charter of Democracy — where they take an oath never to form alliances with any military faction, and commit to holding free and fair elections, with all parties agreeing to accept the results without any rona dhona. A small glimpse of this was seen when Benazir and Nawaz signed their charter of democracy back in the 2000s during Musharraf’s rule. Unfortunately, that move was later sabotaged by the young generation’s leader, Imran Khan. We still have to find a leader who can really dodge these stupid armed generals and show them their real place.

 

[IAJ]

Let me summarize:

Army is good when it supports Imran Khan and bad when it opposes Imran.

Election is rigged when PTI loses but free and fair when PTI wins.

Most rigged elections in Pakistan history — 2008, 2013, 2024

Most fair election in Pakistan history — 2018

Source: Imran Khan’s honesty.

Army just jumped on Imran Khan bandwagon. He never needed them but they saw his popularity and started supporting him. He was going to win without their help anyway, so stop this nonesense.

And Imran has already said he made a mistake by giving extension to Bajwa. Has any of the other so called leaders ever said anything no? You learn from your mistakes and IK did that. NS and BB/Zardaris have done same mistake many times and they are still not learning from it.

And there is a fake major here, who has had his two leaders killed by same people and he has no shame whatsoever.

 

[Major]

But but but werent PTI and Pak army on the same chapter. Wasnt this Pak army the army of Pakistan? Didnt you justify army intervening in Politics is ok?

Oh right, its only ok when Imran says its ok.

Just like Technics admitted, these guys only care about the leader of PTI and his words are gospel for them

 

[RexRex]

Reform#1 : Only one coup allowed per decade.

 

[Major]

Army just jumped on Imran Khan bandwagon. He never needed them but they saw his popularity and started supporting him. He was going to win without their help anyway, so stop this nonesense.

And Imran has already said he made a mistake by giving extension to Bajwa. Has any of the other so called leaders ever said anything no? You learn from your mistakes and IK did that. NS and BB/Zardaris have done same mistake many times and they are still not learning from it.

And there is a fake major here, who has had his two leaders killed by same people and he has no shame whatsoever.

Imran Bandwagon?

Imran had no support in 2008. You think the dharnas that took place, they just magically happened?

To conduct a dharna you need money. You need money to cover the expense of all things taking place. Those dharnas that we saw had a huge bill that someone was gonna pay for. That bill was being paid by the establishment of that time.

It is well known now how the DG ISI of 2013 had started to fund and back Imran.

Again, by saying things like he was going to win anyway, or he was a very popular man, just shows the fools paradise overseas Pakistanis are living in.

PMLN doesnt lose seats in Lahore, and to know why. You only need to go to Lahore to see that for yourself. Punjab, especially central is dominated by the business community, while South Punjab is dominated by land owners. The business community of Punjab has always favored the Sharifs because their union members and the PMLN politicians easily maintain contact and are comfortable with getting their needs or issues met.

Which is why, Central Punjab was never gonna lean towards PTI back in 2018. South Punjab does get ignored, but again, the land owners there are corrupt, they benefitted from PMLN and later they benefitted more from PTI aswell.

KPK i dont know, but KPK is understandable as i assume the people over there were fed up with ANP. Even though ANP has sacrificed alot of their members for Pakistan, but they have lost support over the years.

You dont know anything about the ground realities here bhai. If Imran had support, why did he got for electables? Electables in our politics are those people that will win their seat from their constituent no matter who is standing against them. SO parties try to bring these electables to their own party so that they have more seats in Parliament.

So if Imran was a very popular man than how come he bought Firdous Ashiq Awan to his party? How come he bought the Tareens to his party? How come he went to the biggest lunatic of Pakistan, Aamir Liaqut? You think those guys just woke up one day and decided from now on we will be part of PTI?
They are electables. They are the most expensive horses in our elections. Parties have to buy their support. If Imran was very popular, he would had just given the election ticket to some of the new guys and ask them to stand against Firdous Ashiq Awan but that was never gonna happen.

As for your other point that Imran said he made a mistake, so just admitting cleanses him of his mistakes? You guys keep saying that since he has admitted a mistake, mitti pao. Courts dont work like that. In courts, they tend to use past cases and events as reference points when deciding any changes in law or changes bought into the constitution. So when a PM decides to give extention, that one small mistake screws the political system for the next 10 years and no admission of guilt can rectify that.

By admitting a mistake, messing the constitution up is not some achievement to feel proud about. It only shows how a person lacks the skills to lead a parliament let alone a country

 

[Bewal Express]

Imran Bandwagon?

Imran had no support in 2008. You think the dharnas that took place, they just magically happened?

To conduct a dharna you need money. You need money to cover the expense of all things taking place. Those dharnas that we saw had a huge bill that someone was gonna pay for. That bill was being paid by the establishment of that time.

It is well known now how the DG ISI of 2013 had started to fund and back Imran.

Again, by saying things like he was going to win anyway, or he was a very popular man, just shows the fools paradise overseas Pakistanis are living in.

PMLN doesnt lose seats in Lahore, and to know why. You only need to go to Lahore to see that for yourself. Punjab, especially central is dominated by the business community, while South Punjab is dominated by land owners. The business community of Punjab has always favored the Sharifs because their union members and the PMLN politicians easily maintain contact and are comfortable with getting their needs or issues met.

Which is why, Central Punjab was never gonna lean towards PTI back in 2018. South Punjab does get ignored, but again, the land owners there are corrupt, they benefitted from PMLN and later they benefitted more from PTI aswell.

KPK i dont know, but KPK is understandable as i assume the people over there were fed up with ANP. Even though ANP has sacrificed alot of their members for Pakistan, but they have lost support over the years.

You dont know anything about the ground realities here bhai. If Imran had support, why did he got for electables? Electables in our politics are those people that will win their seat from their constituent no matter who is standing against them. SO parties try to bring these electables to their own party so that they have more seats in Parliament.

So if Imran was a very popular man than how come he bought Firdous Ashiq Awan to his party? How come he bought the Tareens to his party? How come he went to the biggest lunatic of Pakistan, Aamir Liaqut? You think those guys just woke up one day and decided from now on we will be part of PTI?
They are electables. They are the most expensive horses in our elections. Parties have to buy their support. If Imran was very popular, he would had just given the election ticket to some of the new guys and ask them to stand against Firdous Ashiq Awan but that was never gonna happen.

As for your other point that Imran said he made a mistake, so just admitting cleanses him of his mistakes? You guys keep saying that since he has admitted a mistake, mitti pao. Courts dont work like that. In courts, they tend to use past cases and events as reference points when deciding any changes in law or changes bought into the constitution. So when a PM decides to give extention, that one small mistake screws the political system for the next 10 years and no admission of guilt can rectify that.

By admitting a mistake, messing the constitution up is not some achievement to feel proud about. It only shows how a person lacks the skills to lead a parliament let alone a country

The establishment is in power so can you show the receipts that you have seen from them about IKs jalsas. Surely your not going to claim something and not have an iota of proof. I am not asking for your Bahria house proof, just something, anything to show they paid.
As far as the extensions are concerned, can you tell us who gave General Kiyani an extension in 2010? Please don't run off. Was it the good man that you talk about?

 

[Bewal Express]

The establishment is in power so can you show the receipts that you have seen from them about IKs jalsas. Surely your not going to claim something and not have an iota of proof. I am not asking for your Bahria house proof, just something, anything to show they paid.
As far as the extensions are concerned, can you tell us who gave General Kiyani an extension in 2010? Please don't run off. Was it the good man that you talk about?

@Major
I am waiting for reply. You seem to be running from replying. You just lie and run.

 

[LordJames]

Let me summarize:

Army is good when it supports Imran Khan and bad when it opposes Imran.

Election is rigged when PTI loses but free and fair when PTI wins.

Most rigged elections in Pakistan history — 2008, 2013, 2024

Most fair election in Pakistan history — 2018

Source: Imran Khan’s honesty.

Dear Dr @Mamoon

No.

Pakistan Army is bad whenever, however it meddles in Politics. Whomsoever it supports (Imran Khan included) and whenever (in the past or present or future) it should not meddle in the Politics of the Nation.

Whether Pakistan Army meddled in 1970, 2018, 2024 it should not have in the past and should not in the future.

The meddling of Pakistan Army has led to the breakup of Pakistan and their continued meddling has turned (Afghans whom Pakistan supported for decades) into bitter enemies and their meddling is costing lives (both Military & Civilian) on a daily basis.

Afghan foreign policy was always hostile to Pakistan (Pre-Taliban) but diplomacy is to "manage" a situation and not a zero sum game.

There is zero scope for this according to Muhammad Ali Jinnah Saheb and boundaries he set.

I know that you have the intellectual and Academic ability to understand what is written in simple English, what you choose to do is upto you.

Thanks

Brother James,

By your own admission, you are not Pakistani by residency, ethnicity or nationality. I would prefer to discuss this with someone who has more skin in the game. No offense at all dear brother.

Dear Brother @RizwanT20Champ

This is a public forum and there is no such rule and I respectfully disagree with your opinion. I respect you as a person, as a brother but I disagree with your personal opinion because is against common sense and also forum rules.

However, if you are of that opinion as politely asked before how come you don't follow your own advise and stay out of issues which are not related to Pakistan, why are you not able to take your own advise.

How come you are advising me to do something but not following your own advise?

Thanks for your time.