How will Younis Khan's legacy be remembered?

[shaz619]

One of the greatest test batsmen of all-time and the second ATG batsman from the great cricketing nation of Pakistan. A clean, hard-working, pious, helpful team man who despite his massive ego, never acted arrogantly. Yes, he wanted to be praised for his work but that is understandable given that he saw the likes of Sachin and Dravid getting their feet kissed in the neighboring country.

His legacy as a legendary cricketer cannot be denied by anyone except the most ignorant and hateful. Still remember how the Australian commentator introduced him when he came out to bat for the first time at the Gabba "The legend of Younis Khan walks out to the crease...". Gave me some massive chills.

If anyone can find me a video of that let me know please [MENTION=47617]Red Devil[/MENTION] [MENTION=3474]TalhaSyed[/MENTION]

 

[shaz619]

Ian Bishop's call on commentary when Khan broke the record was incredible as well and gave me goosebumps:

"

10 thousand Test Match runs for Younis Khan! HE SITS ALONE ON THE THRONE OF PAKISTAN BATTING ROYALTY! "

 

[TalentSpotterPk]

You can by feasting on spinners in UAE. If YK was English, his career would end up like James Vince's.

Give him a break. When you seriously started watching Cricket in Life Younis Khan has crossed 40 years marks. He is 44 years old.


YK averaged 66 on 2006 tour to England. This fishing, jumping and dancing had started only 4 years ago since he entered 40's.


Though he was limited against pace but his defence and grit was solid right from Word go otherwise He wouldn't have been Pak's most prolific Test scorer. He was the only Test player who was dropped for very few Tests due to performance. Most of the Tests he missed were because of non cricketing reasons.

Don't degrade Pride of Pakistan by such comparisons and statements.


The Only Test Cricketer to have scored Test hundreds in 11 Countries against all Test playing nations. The only Test Cricketer who averages 50 plus in all four innings, the only Test Cricketer with 5 Test hundreds in fourth innings of a Test. The Cricketer will most Test hundreds post age 35 (unofficially). Here you are comparing him with James Vince. Quite Shameful :-/

 

[New Yorker]

I think you are simply arguing 'why' Younis should be considered an ATG, while I am simply stating why he 'is not' an ATG by the neutral/universal standards. As far as the England series is concerned, he did redeem himself with the double-hundred, but my comical comment was mostly directed at his batting in the first three Tests. It is true that he played a big hand in helping us draw the series, it won't be wrong to suggest that he also played a considerable role in ensuring that Pakistan did not win the series.

When your main batsman goes missing in ugly fashion for 6 straight innings, it does put a lot of strain on the team. All in all, his 14 failures in 17 innings played more than just a considerable role in ensuring that Pakistan lose 7 out of 9 Tests in England, NZ and Australia, which has gone a long way in ensuring that the world doesn't see him as one of the greatest of all time.

Nothing neutral about these criteria. There is no such thing as an objective position. And my argument is
not that he is an ATG. oOn which question I am agnostic. My argument is that the question of who is an
ATG is much more complicated than you can acknowledge. Because there was not a country in which he did
not perform, it is certainly not reducible to the question of what kinds of bowling he was able to play.
As for the England tour, if you acknowledge that he was Pakistan's main batsman then you have already conceded something about his stature. As for the rest of his tour, he still managed to put runs on the board when Azhar was falling for ducks and Hafeez and Shan looking like they should just be put out of their misery.Comedy is one thing, farce another, and by the end of the series it is safe to say I think that everyone but you had forgotten about his early awkwardness.

 

[Mamoon]

Nothing neutral about these criteria. There is no such thing as an objective position. And my argument is
not that he is an ATG. oOn which question I am agnostic. My argument is that the question of who is an
ATG is much more complicated than you can acknowledge. Because there was not a country in which he did
not perform, it is certainly not reducible to the question of what kinds of bowling he was able to play.
As for the England tour, if you acknowledge that he was Pakistan's main batsman then you have already conceded something about his stature. As for the rest of his tour, he still managed to put runs on the board when Azhar was falling for ducks and Hafeez and Shan looking like they should just be put out of their misery.Comedy is one thing, farce another, and by the end of the series it is safe to say I think that everyone but you had forgotten about his early awkwardness.

Well I recognize his stature that is why the fact that he went missing for 6 straight innings in England and didn't produce anything substantial in Australia till the series was over is a big question mark on his legacy. These criteria may not appear neutral, but because of these reasons, majority of the people outside Pakistan do not rate him as an ATG in the same league as some of the others names I mentioned. Whether these people are right or wrong to undervalue Younis because of these factors, I don't know, but this is a thread about his legacy and the minority (the ones who think he is an ATG) don't get to decide the legacy, and neither does Younis (who 'wants' to be remembered as a Team Man).

 

[Mamoon]

Younis in his 17 year career has managed to average 50+ in both England and Australia, score centuries at good averages in New Zealand and to a lesser extent, South Africa, along with being as close to invincible against spin a batsman can be. A double century in England and a 170 in New Zealand. 99.99% of Asian batsman haven't come close to this man's accomplishments and that is why he is an All-Time Great.

Kohli, in comparison, isn't even in the rear-view mirror as of now. Do give me a few examples of when Kohli scored against swing and seam bowling, please.

All on flat tracks. As for Kohli, he still has to prove himself in truly testing conditions, but the difference between him and Younis is that he still has 10 years in his career, and the fact that he has much a higher ceiling than Younis as an overall batsman means that there is a great chance that he will prove himself at some point. If he doesn't, the same criticism that are leveled against Younis now will be leveled against him. However, don't expect them to be judged with the same lens because the career of Younis is over and he never proved himself in difficult conditions.

Younis is a Pakistani great but not an ATG because he has failed to have a dominant series overseas and he has never done well against lateral movement.

 

[Mamoon]

)

Trying way too hard, as always. My point was never to make you see the errors of your ways, that will never happen because like Younis, you have the skill to keep your wicket even in difficult conditions. This exchange has made it clear to everyone that your bias against Younis Khan is hilarious and you are incapable of having a rational opinion on the legendary Pakistani batsman.

I have bias against Younis the person but not Younis the batsman. I have had the same reservations way before he proved himself to be an egoistic and selfish player and not the team man he portrayed himself to be. I have never been comfortable with the the idea that he is a superior batsman to Inzamam and MoYo. Statistically yes, but it is difficult to rate him ahead of those two if you have watched all three bat.

If you think that he is an ATG, good for you. There is no one criteria for being an ATG, but personally speaking, I don't consider him one. However, it is not about my opinion or yours, but the fact that you are trying to sell something that never happened, i.e. Younis scoring against lateral movement. He has never done that, and the failures of other Pakistani batsmen don't prove otherwise. As I said before, I have always admired his quality of often scoring runs when others have not.

 

[Mamoon]

If anyone can find me a video of that let me know please [MENTION=47617]Red Devil[/MENTION] [MENTION=3474]TalhaSyed[/MENTION]

If it was the first innings, then it must be a short video because he got out first ball, which was the standard procedure for him against lateral movement.

 

[shaz619]

Well I recognize his stature that is why the fact that he went missing for 6 straight innings in England and didn't produce anything substantial in Australia till the series was over is a big question mark on his legacy. These criteria may not appear neutral, but because of these reasons, majority of the people outside Pakistan do not rate him as an ATG in the same league as some of the others names I mentioned. Whether these people are right or wrong to undervalue Younis because of these factors, I don't know, but this is a thread about his legacy and the minority (the ones who think he is an ATG) don't get to decide the legacy, and neither does Younis (who 'wants' to be remembered as a Team Man).

There is not a single Brit or probably very few who question Khan's ATG status, in fact there are more sceptics in Pakistan then anything else; they tend to prefer gimmicks like Afridi then actual performance. His performances in England and Australia recently are not big question marks on his legacy but VINDICATION of his greatness, Younis Khan past the prime of his career with all his reflex's dead helped level the series in England and in AUS while his hundred was not game changing the man still averaged 60 by the end and was the 5th highest run scorer. You just don't like the fella we get it! if Khan was white you would worship him like you do Cook

 

[shaz619]

If it was the first innings, then it must be a short video because he got out first ball, which was the standard procedure for him against lateral movement.

He is a very decent against lateral movement, I have seen him in his prime deal with it very easily; sure it has been a challenge recently but that's what father time does to you! we can't say Cook cant play swing if he began to flop towards the back end of his career, we still have to acknowledge his peaks

 

[Mamoon]

There is not a single Brit or probably very few who question Khan's ATG status, in fact there are more sceptics in Pakistan then anything else; they tend to prefer gimmicks like Afridi then actual performance. His performances in England and Australia recently are not big question marks on his legacy but VINDICATION of his greatness, Younis Khan past the prime of his career with all his reflex's dead helped level the series in England and in AUS while his hundred was not game changing the man still averaged 60 by the end and was the 5th highest run scorer. You just don't like the fella we get it! if Khan was white you would worship him like you do Cook

14 failures in 17 innings is not vindication of greatness, and secondly, he is not rated at the same level as the other players that I mentioned. Test cricket purist might consider him an ATG, but the majority of the world do not consider him one, simply because he was an ODI flop. In this era, it is difficult for a Test specialist to achieve the elite status. Same holds true for Cook as well, but I personally consider him an ATG because he had dominant series in India and Australia, piling up massive runs throughout the series and not just one innings like Younis. It doesn't get bigger than that for an English batsman.

 

[shaz619]

Younis Khan is arguably the GREATEST in history [MENTION=131701]Mamoon[/MENTION] this man my word, you don't deserve such a batsman; you will regret it in the near future. Pakistan will NEVER produce another like him

 

[Mamoon]

He is a very decent against lateral movement, I have seen him in his prime deal with it very easily; sure it has been a challenge recently but that's what father time does to you! we can't say Cook cant play swing if he began to flop towards the back end of his career, we still have to acknowledge his peaks

Not a single substantial innings in swinging/seaming conditions against quality bowlers. None.

 

[Mamoon]

Younis Khan is arguably the GREATEST in history [MENTION=131701]Mamoon[/MENTION] this man my word, you don't deserve such a batsman; you will regret it in the near future. Pakistan will NEVER produce another like him

The fact that he holds all the records for Pakistan and we may never produce another one like him says a lot about our mediocre batting legacy, which is not surprising because we have produced only one ATG batsman (Miandad).

 

[Mamoon]

Anyhow, I am done with this thread, that's all. Don't have to add anything more, I would simply be repeating myself.

 

[shaz619]

14 failures in 17 innings is not vindication of greatness, and secondly, he is not rated at the same level as the other players that I mentioned. Test cricket purist might consider him an ATG, but the majority of the world do not consider him one, simply because he was an ODI flop. In this era, it is difficult for a Test specialist to achieve the elite status. Same holds true for Cook as well, but I personally consider him an ATG because he had dominant series in India and Australia, piling up massive runs throughout the series and not just one innings like Younis. It doesn't get bigger than that for an English batsman.

Those are just stats you look at them out of context, the fact is this though Khan levelled the series in England and then averaged 60 in AUS past his prime when his reflex's were dead. In Tests and T20's Khan achieved greatness so he is an ATG, he won you Paks only ICC trophy in the 2000's and your beloved flair and style couldn't do that in the 90's brother! why not value that! Cook is an ATG for me as well despite his flops in ODI's, Tests are the pinnacle

 

[shaz619]

Those are just stats you look at them out of context, the fact is this though Khan levelled the series in England and then averaged 60 in AUS past his prime when his reflex's were dead. In Tests and T20's Khan achieved greatness so he is an ATG, he won you Paks only ICC trophy in the 2000's and your beloved flair and style couldn't do that in the 90's brother! why not value that! Cook is an ATG for me as well despite his flops in ODI's, Tests are the pinnacle

In the late 90's* I always count the 92 WC win as culmination of the 80's team's hard work and excellence

 

[New Yorker]

Well I recognize his stature that is why the fact that he went missing for 6 straight innings in England and didn't produce anything substantial in Australia till the series was over is a big question mark on his legacy. These criteria may not appear neutral, but because of these reasons, majority of the people outside Pakistan do not rate him as an ATG in the same league as some of the others names I mentioned. Whether these people are right or wrong to undervalue Younis because of these factors, I don't know, but this is a thread about his legacy and the minority (the ones who think he is an ATG) don't get to decide the legacy, and neither does Younis (who 'wants' to be remembered as a Team Man).

What people? What comprehensive polls of how cricket fans around the world a. determine who is an ATG b. feel about YK are you referring to?

There is no such data, we all know. Your assumption is simply that Pakistanis will all think YK an ATG and the rest of the world will be more skeptical. I think you are yourself evidence of a more complicated picture. The preoccupation with playing 'the moving ball' is, I dare say, more of a subcontinental one than an English one, simply because in England it is taken for granted.

I am not merely saying that these criteria do not appear to be neutral, I am saying that the notion of an objective position, ie a non position, is fictional.

What YK represents to who is a matter of subjective evaluation, and, I again stress, time. Every great begin to look more timeless with the passing of years.

His 2nd innings record, the 10,000 runs, 3X centuries, in every country, and those big gritty innings that broke India's/England's back. Those will be the achievements that are remembered and they could be enough for most people. The qualifier 'Test great,' casting only a more pronounced, sentimental sepia-toned afterglow.

 

[Snatch]

From a Pakistani perspective:

A tremendous Test batsman who played a pivotal role in various memorable wins. For the last half of his career, he was the man who carried the batting lineup. In addition, a World T20 winning captain but a terrible and selfish ODI cricketer.

From a neutral perspective:

A flat track bully who was never good enough to score against lateral movement. However, he had a penchant for huge scores when the conditions favored. Nonetheless, didn't have the aura and the ability to become one of the central figures in world cricket in spite of having ATG stats.

Was below batsmen like Tendulkar, Ponting, Lara, Dravid, Smith, Cook, Hayden, Sangakkara, Kallis, Pietersen, Clarke, Amla and de Villiers in his era, and the younger generation batsmen like Kohli, Smith, Kane and Root surpassed him as well in terms of stature. Ultimately, for the neutral/non-Pakistani fan, he doesn't really have legacy, and hence not an ATG. He is in the same league as someone like Mahela - a great for his nation, but not an ATG.

This couldn't be more accurate from a neutral perspective. Well said.

The Mahela analogy is spot on.

 

[Snatch]

One of the greatest test batsmen of all-time and the second ATG batsman from the great cricketing nation of Pakistan. A clean, hard-working, pious, helpful team man who despite his massive ego, never acted arrogantly. Yes, he wanted to be praised for his work but that is understandable given that he saw the likes of Sachin and Dravid getting their feet kissed in the neighboring country.

In general only Pakistan fans would sum him up this way if we're being honest. He is isn't even considered in the same ball park as someone like Sangakkara if you asked most fans outside Asia.

Not an ATG, but has ATG stats. So basically Mahela version 2, or a Thilan Samaraweera, if Thilan played twice the number of Tests he did.

 

[Mamoon]

What people? What comprehensive polls of how cricket fans around the world a. determine who is an ATG b. feel about YK are you referring to?

There is no such data, we all know. Your assumption is simply that Pakistanis will all think YK an ATG and the rest of the world will be more skeptical. I think you are yourself evidence of a more complicated picture. The preoccupation with playing 'the moving ball' is, I dare say, more of a subcontinental one than an English one, simply because in England it is taken for granted.

I am not merely saying that these criteria do not appear to be neutral, I am saying that the notion of an objective position, ie a non position, is fictional.

What YK represents to who is a matter of subjective evaluation, and, I again stress, time. Every great begin to look more timeless with the passing of years.

His 2nd innings record, the 10,000 runs, 3X centuries, in every country, and those big gritty innings that broke India's/England's back. Those will be the achievements that are remembered and they could be enough for most people. The qualifier 'Test great,' casting only a more pronounced, sentimental sepia-toned afterglow.

Why do you think he is not rated as highly as Kohli or Smith or Root or Williamson or de Villiers or Sangakkara, or do you think that is not the case and he is as big as those guys.

 

[Snatch]

What people? What comprehensive polls of how cricket fans around the world a. determine who is an ATG b. feel about YK are you referring to?

There is no such data, we all know. Your assumption is simply that Pakistanis will all think YK an ATG and the rest of the world will be more skeptical. I think you are yourself evidence of a more complicated picture. The preoccupation with playing 'the moving ball' is, I dare say, more of a subcontinental one than an English one, simply because in England it is taken for granted.

I am not merely saying that these criteria do not appear to be neutral, I am saying that the notion of an objective position, ie a non position, is fictional.

What YK represents to who is a matter of subjective evaluation, and, I again stress, time. Every great begin to look more timeless with the passing of years.

His 2nd innings record, the 10,000 runs, 3X centuries, in every country, and those big gritty innings that broke India's/England's back. Those will be the achievements that are remembered and they could be enough for most people. The qualifier 'Test great,' casting only a more pronounced, sentimental sepia-toned afterglow.

I can only talk from a neutral perspective when comparing Younis versus guys like Sangakkara or Kallis since I have no bias towards Pakistan, Sri Lanka or South Africa, and I rate Sanga and Kallis considerably higher as Test batsmen.

I would also say Miandad was considered a far better Test batsman than Younis has been from those cricket fans and writers outside Asia.

 

[Bilal7]

In general only Pakistan fans would sum him up this way if we're being honest. He is isn't even considered in the same ball park as someone like Sangakkara if you asked most fans outside Asia.

Not an ATG, but has ATG stats. So basically Mahela version 2, or a Thilan Samaraweera, if Thilan played twice the number of Tests he did.

Mahela does not have "ATG stats" and was nothing more than a borderline FTB. Younis Khan has everything an ATG needs, whether it's the numbers, performances, peer appreciation, etc.

 

[Bilal7]

I have bias against Younis the person but not Younis the batsman. I have had the same reservations way before he proved himself to be an egoistic and selfish player and not the team man he portrayed himself to be. I have never been comfortable with the the idea that he is a superior batsman to Inzamam and MoYo. Statistically yes, but it is difficult to rate him ahead of those two if you have watched all three bat.

If you think that he is an ATG, good for you. There is no one criteria for being an ATG, but personally speaking, I don't consider him one. However, it is not about my opinion or yours, but the fact that you are trying to sell something that never happened, i.e. Younis scoring against lateral movement. He has never done that, and the failures of other Pakistani batsmen don't prove otherwise. As I said before, I have always admired his quality of often scoring runs when others have not.

You're blinded by your irrational hate and cannot see things for what they are. No matter, Younis Khan's performances speak for himself and what one guy who admits to being terribly biased against him will not matter in the grand scheme of things.

The second/third best batsman of his generation and arguably Pakistan's best ever. That, along with his performances all over the world, fourth innings record, 10,000 runs, 35 centuries and invincibility against spin are enough for him to be an ATG in the eyes of the cricketing world. You can keep doubting his ability to play the moving ball though. Kudos on finally accepting that there are major doubts over Kohli's ability to play swing and seam bowling, however.

 

[Teshi98]

Everyone knows that kohli failed in eng to be a genuine atg he has to perform there in future. However i fail to understand that if you call kohli a ftb by what logic you call younis khan an atg. He was actually worse than kohli in seaming and/or bouncy conditions. He has struggled with pace and bounce on the pitches where kohli is excellent.
Also although i agree that at present younis khan is a superior batsmen than kohli while facing spin the difference is not as large as you make it out to be. Both have scored runs against more or less the similar type of bowlers with good success with younis being only a bit more consistent and not at all levels above currently.
If you consider him to be an atg (which he is not) can you please explain why you are always biased against kohli considering both have similar type of perfomances.

 

[Bilal7]

Everyone knows that kohli failed in eng to be a genuine atg he has to perform there in future. However i fail to understand that if you call kohli a ftb by what logic you call younis khan an atg. He was actually worse than kohli in seaming and/or bouncy conditions. He has struggled with pace and bounce on the pitches where kohli is excellent.
Also although i agree that at present younis khan is a superior batsmen than kohli while facing spin the difference is not as large as you make it out to be. Both have scored runs against more or less the similar type of bowlers with good success with younis being only a bit more consistent and not at all levels above currently.
If you consider him to be an atg (which he is not) can you please explain why you are always biased against kohli considering both have similar type of perfomances.

Younis Khan has been in the game for 17 years and averages 50+ in Australia and England, nearly 45 in New Zealand and 30-something in South Africa. He also has excellent centuries in all four countries and if you go through this thread, you will find some examples of when he negotiated high-class swing and seam bowling quite comfortably.

Kohli meanwhile, has done superbly well in Australia but not a single ball deviated from its course during the last Indian tour of Australia that was played on absolute roads and under perfect batting conditions. Spin-bowling aside. He failed miserably in England and despite playing a superb innings in South Africa, in one of his four innings there, the fact remains that he has only played four innings there and failed in two of them, while a third was also played in nearly perfect batting conditions.

Younis Khan has been there and done that and is a bondafide ATG. I rate him slightly higher than Dravid. Kohli has a long journey ahead of him to get to that level and all we can do now is wait and see how he goes. The upcoming series in South Africa will tell us a lot of where he stands. Four test matches, enough time to judge his batting and no room for excuses.

 

[Teshi98]

Fair enough but if kohli performs well in the seties will you still give excuses that pitches wete flat etc.
In the last sa series the two innings you are mentioning as failures he was given out wrongly in one of them and caught down the legside in other . Both dismissals in no way showed his weakness against moving ball.
Also younis khan struggled against very less lateral movement in england in first three tests compared to swing and seam bowlers got in ind vs eng series. His double hundred came in last test with hardly any movement on offer. Also Anderson was returning from injury and stokes was missed in series or life would have been even more difficult for him.
Also the pitches in pak vs aus series were equally flat *or pak bowling was absolutely pathetic to give runs away like they did) and younis khan was not great even there.

 

[captain crook]

The second greatest batsman after Sanakkara from Asia. One of the all time legends and a player who fighted it out in 4th innings of test matches. All time great!

 

[New Yorker]

Why do you think he is not rated as highly as Kohli or Smith or Root or Williamson or de Villiers or Sangakkara, or do you think that is not the case and he is as big as those guys.

Interesting comparisons. I'd say that 'to be rated' is one thing, 'big' another, ATG in Tests yet still another. In Tests, only Sanga could lay claim to be an ATG, even though I might well feel that Smith or Kohli will surpass Sanga by the end of their careers. And I certainly feel that Kohli and ABDV are bigger sports personalities than someone like YK. As indeed is someone like Chris Gayle. But this has to do with the contemporary popularity of ODIs and T20s. Neither Gayle nor ABDV are better Test players than YK.

What I would otherwise repeat again is that am not nearly as invested in the question of whether YK is an ATG as I am concerned with the question of *how* we might decide such things. Inter alia, I suggest that there is never going to be agreement on these things, and that the criteria you have put forward are rather arbitrary. I still don't understand why someone's performance in ODIs has anything to do with their credentials as a Test player. I also question the contention that someone thing like a global majority opinion can be ascertained, let alone that it exists, notwithstanding the straw polls done on PP.

 

[Monsee]

Fair enough but if kohli performs well in the seties will you still give excuses that pitches wete flat etc.
In the last sa series the two innings you are mentioning as failures he was given out wrongly in one of them and caught down the legside in other . Both dismissals in no way showed his weakness against moving ball.
Also younis khan struggled against very less lateral movement in england in first three tests compared to swing and seam bowlers got in ind vs eng series. His double hundred came in last test with hardly any movement on offer. Also Anderson was returning from injury and stokes was missed in series or life would have been even more difficult for him.
Also the pitches in pak vs aus series were equally flat *or pak bowling was absolutely pathetic to give runs away like they did) and younis khan was not great even there.

And have you looked at the rest of your post, are those facts you listed, not excuses?

See it works both ways when you don't even realise it

 

[Buffet]

I don't consider YK as an ATG in the test format, but come on , he was better than Mahela in the test format. Taking together all formats, Mahela was better, but I am assuming comments were about the test format.