"I will do my utmost to once again win the hearts of Pakistan fans" : Salman Butt

[MenInG]

Whilst the eyes of the cricketing world are firmly focused on the progress of Mohammad Amir as he continues to make significant advances towards resurrecting his international career, his former captain Salman Butt has also begun his journey towards rehabilitation.

Butt was twenty-five years old when the news of his involvement in the now infamous spot-fixing scandal shook the cricket world in the summer of 2010. Along with Mohammad Amir and Mohammad Asif, the left-handed batsman who had recently taken over as Pakistan's Test captain after Shahid Afridi’s rather abrupt retirement from Test cricket was banned from all forms of cricket by the ICC for a period of five years.

Despite the expiry of his ban in September this year, the Pakistan Cricket Board were adamant that the former captain must undergo rehabilitation before being allowed back to play domestic cricket in the country. Even though the WAPDA team had made special provisions for Salman Butt to train with them in October, the final hurdle to return to normalcy for the Lahore-born cricketer was removed on the 5th of December when the Chairman of the PCB announced that Salman Butt and Mohammad Asif would both be allowed to take part in the National One Day cup, starting in early 2016.

The former Pakistan captain was clearly relieved by this announcement and in exclusive remarks to PakPassion.net, he expressed his delight at being allowed to take concrete steps towards the restoration of his domestic and possibly his international career remarking that “I am glad and relieved to have reached this stage and am thankful to the Almighty for this second chance. I cannot thank the PCB enough for allowing me this opportunity and I am now looking forward to the next year where I can once again start playing the game I love.”

The road to a complete restoration of his cricket career will not be easy and Salman Butt is acutely aware of that fact that his skills and good intentions will amount to nothing if he is not fit enough to perform on the field or if he is not offered a chance to gain valuable match practice during this journey. In this regard, the offer to play for WAPDA could only be described as a God send and one which the former Pakistan captain is grateful for.

“I'm fit and have been able to keep my fitness going through these five years. However, I do know that no amount of gym fitness can prepare you for the road ahead and I'm very thankful to WAPDA for backing me and giving me the opportunity to perform and I hope and pray that I can help them win domestic competitions.”

A veteran of thirty-three Test matches with 1889 runs to his name, Salman Butt appeared to have a successful career ahead of him until 2010. An absence of five years from competitive cricket can take the edge off any player and the coming months will severely test Butt’s resolve to move ahead, a fact he readily acknowledges as he stated “I can only thank the Almighty that the desire and hunger to play the game I love is very much alive in me and by the grace of God, the results will also be great. I strongly believe that I can still do well at any level of cricket. All I need is an opportunity and I will make sure I don’t disappoint anyone.”

There will be many amongst the millions of followers of cricket who would be happy to see the back of the man who they hold responsible for the ignominy that the country suffered five years ago. The wounds of the summer of 2010 are yet to heal for many and it will take more than words to placate followers of Pakistan cricket who were truly shocked by the events of that time.

Salman Butt, Mohammad Amir and Mohammad Asif have a mountain climb before all Pakistan supporters will ever trust them in Pakistani colors again. For Salman Butt, the effort to restore trust in himself amongst the supporters will be a gargantuan task but could prove the prime motivator as he takes to the cricket field once again in early 2016.

He knows that his work is cut out in this regard and he will be hoping for a sympathetic ear from Pakistani cricket fans as he faces them once again, ”I will be offering my apologies to them when I see them. I will try and convince them that despite all that has happened in the past, I still have a good character and God willing, I will do my utmost to once again win the hearts of Pakistan fans. I believe that everyone who repents and intends to do good in future deserves a second chance. That is all I want”, he concluded.

 

[Major]

I remember how after the Australia series, this guy had become the most liked person ever from Pakistan, because of the series Draw and plus the way he spoke to the media. Him and then ZUlqarnain Haider aswell for his 88 knock against England.

And now look at them today...

 

[Amir]

best way to win Pakistan fans is by going away...

 

[Ashraful_Rox]

If Amir can come back then why not Salman Butt.

 

[Monsee]

"I will do my utmost to once again win the hearts of Pakistan fans" : Salman Butt

Oh good, it's settled then, he is retiring, adios!

 

[Monsee]

Someone who averaged in the 30's all through his career, was an extremely poor runner, atrocious fielder/catcher, etc. won our hearts at some points?

Many people including I were never sold on his qualities for the team...he was too much of a burden to be kept while shinning only against 1-2 good teams and sucking big tiume against everyone else!

 

[Cryin Out Loud]

This is a man who orchestrated match fixing as captain, betraying his team, his fans and his country. This man played the system till the end and in an ultimate display of cynicism that still staggers me, accepted his guilt only when he realised it would help his career. In an equitable world, now that he has served his punishment, he would be told to #$## off and never show his face near a cricket game again. However....

If Amir can come back then why not Salman Butt.

.....here lies an inevitable, irrefutable truth, and it will be interesting to see how Butt plays it.

 

[Pete Rose]

Deserves his shot like the other two. Hope he has a thick skin. He will need it.

 

[Saj]

To be fair. He has served his time and as per the rules is entitled to another chance.

 

[Markhor]

Clearly absence makes the heart grow fonder but for those whose memories actually extends beyond 5 years will remember Butt wasn't even a HTB which is the least you can say for Hafeez/Shehzad with an average around 30 on the flat decks of Pakistan and other than Australia has a dire Test record against the other nations. His top score on that infamous England tour was 48, how can anyone want him back. Any competent new ball bowler eventually worked him out.

His fielding was awful and if he'd been playing this year that run-out record would be even worse than it already is. And all that's not mentioning his ringleader role in the fixing affair.

Keep away Butt. That's how you win the hearts of Pak fans.

 

[Hawkeye]

Should never be selected for the national team. Has a right to play cricket though, as ICC has allowed him to. Can rot in domestics if he wants.

Two reasons:

1. The mastermind and captain who orchestrated spot fixing.
2. Rubbish batsman.

 

[ExplicitAI]

The wounds of summer 2010 have healed but bringing this guy back would be as if you rip off those bandages viciously with blood gushing out. We've done pretty well in clotting this horrible event by good performances after 2010 but I personally would not like to see the individual who as a captain, orchestrated this whole fixing scenario.

 

[Abdul]

The people who are vitalizing Mohammad Amir should also support Salman Butt and Mohammad Asif.

Otherwise it's clearly a display of hypocriticalness and double standards.

 

[dashing_man]

To be fair. He has served his time and as per the rules is entitled to another chance.

this +1

I don't mind Asif either although he was on 2nd strike but both him and Butt have completed their sentences. He was the captain at the time but he's a human being in the end. He didn't murder anyone, just tried to gain some quick money

 

[dashing_man]

Clearly absence makes the heart grow fonder but for those whose memories actually extends beyond 5 years will remember Butt wasn't even a HTB which is the least you can say for Hafeez/Shehzad with an average around 30 on the flat decks of Pakistan and other than Australia has a dire Test record against the other nations. His top score on that infamous England tour was 48, how can anyone want him back. Any competent new ball bowler eventually worked him out.

His fielding was awful and if he'd been playing this year that run-out record would be even worse than it already is. And all that's not mentioning his ringleader role in the fixing affair.

Keep away Butt. That's how you win the hearts of Pak fans.

spot-fixing aside, Butt was our best player on away turfs. I would go out on a limb and say he was the best opener after Saeed Anwar.

 

[savecricket]

I remember him talking after the scandal broke and how adamant he was that he'd done nothing wrong but all the time he was selling out his entire nation. I'm very very sorry but that sort of behaviour can not be forgotten. There are many people in Pak that don't have the option to play cricket for a living or have much of an income at all. Butt should be advised to stay away from cricket and do something else with his life like so many others have to each day. You blew it now pay the price

 

[Monsee]

This is a man who orchestrated match fixing as captain, betraying his team, his fans and his country. This man played the system till the end and in an ultimate display of cynicism that still staggers me, accepted his guilt only when he realised it would help his career. In an equitable world, now that he has served his punishment, he would be told to get lost and never show his face near a cricket game again. However....



.....here lies an inevitable, irrefutable truth, and it will be interesting to see how Butt plays it.

Agree with every word up there and would be glad to tell him to F Off for all the Pak fans...to me his ultimate crime was defeintely the denial and arrogance with which he kept claiming he was inncoent till the very end!

 

[Monsee]

The people who are vitalizing Mohammad Amir should also support Salman Butt and Mohammad Asif.

Otherwise it's clearly a display of hypocriticalness and double standards.

This bold part below is what annoys most fans:

This is a man who orchestrated match fixing as captain, betraying his team, his fans and his country. This man played the system till the end and in an ultimate display of cynicism that still staggers me, accepted his guilt only when he realised it would help his career. In an equitable world, now that he has served his punishment, he would be told to #$## off and never show his face near a cricket game again. However....



.....here lies an inevitable, irrefutable truth, and it will be interesting to see how Butt plays it.

and if it is hypocrisy for such a coward individual then so be it; I don't want to see his face for even a second, if he plays in a match for Pak, I might switch off the TV

 

[Adnan_Ilyas]

Good luck Butt

 

[Monsee]

spot-fixing aside, Butt was our best player on away turfs. I would go out on a limb and say he was the best opener after Saeed Anwar.

Can you provide proof of that, not on basis of one two tours but rather his numbers in all his 6 year old career that he was the best batsman overseas?

 

[dashing_man]

Can you provide proof of that, not on basis of one two tours but rather his numbers in all his 6 year old career that he was the best batsman overseas?

don't have time to dig out stats but these are on top of my mind:

1- Brilliant performance with bat in consecutive Australia tours

2- Probably the only Pakistani batsmen to have 8 hundreds V india and 1 fifty

3- Lead Pakistan to win their first Test against Australia in over a decade

4- Was really consistent with bat during the year 2007-2010

5- Started doing really good in T20s for Pakistan.


he wasn't the best but was better than the current lot, even better than Hafeez

 

[AlphaFighter]

Realistically speaking, he has to score like a gazzilion runs in domestic cricket to have that slim chance of a recall.

 

[savecricket]

when does talent compensate for corruption? Yes, he hasn't murdered anyone and yes everyone should be forgiven. If a banker commits fraud he's shut out from that industry but he's free to do whatever he likes. Butt is free to open up a clothes store or become a banker even but cricket should be off limits to this guy. Pak has a history of deep routed corruption, almost every gov dept is corrupt and that does filter down to the general population, lying has become a habit. Sport needs to stay clean and lead the light for Pak as a country. In Eng this would be an entirely different matter but if the PCB don't stand up to this then I guarantee you this will happen again. The new t20 league is one to keep an eye on for sure. Butt has no shame, he's proven that very clearly. What better way now to set an example to the whole of Pak.

 

[farazaidi]

The people who are vitalizing Mohammad Amir should also support Salman Butt and Mohammad Asif.

Otherwise it's clearly a display of hypocriticalness and double standards.

Asif is a serial offender, first the positive dope test, then opium found in his wallet, and then this. He only needs ball tampering or Afridi style pitch dance on his illustrious CV. With his current form and fitness thou, I doubt he'll ever comeback to domestic cricket even.

Salman Butt was never good enough anyway. He was a stop gap solution and now we have better options for openers available !

 

[Suleiman]

Don't win our hearts Butt bhai

Win us games

 

[Monsee]

don't have time to dig out stats but these are on top of my mind:

1- Brilliant performance with bat in consecutive Australia tours

2- Probably the only Pakistani batsmen to have 8 hundreds V india and 1 fifty

3- Lead Pakistan to win their first Test against Australia in over a decade

4- Was really consistent with bat during the year 2007-2010

5- Started doing really good in T20s for Pakistan.


he wasn't the best but was better than the current lot, even better than Hafeez

First thing first, here is the man you are defending:

Batting and fielding averages
Mat Inns NO Runs HS Ave BF SR 100 50 4s 6s Ct St
Tests 33 62 0 1889 122 30.46 4002 47.20 3 10 276 1 12 0

1- Against Australia in Tests he did well, I give him that but look at the rest combined:

He averages 25 against all other teams combined including India, BD, Lanka, WI and couple of stronger teams, you know what a decent opener averages these days at least 38-40 and good ones 45-48 and really good ones well above 50. Infact, most wicket keeprs average better than that:

filtered 2003-2010 25 1171 122 25.45 1 1 1/36 106.00 0 10 0

2- The talk about his return to cricket is purely in overseas (even in this thread and as a whole as well) and that only in tests so despite India being his bunny (which everyone and their dog amongst Pak batsmaen have done it including YK, nothing surprising there). So even if he had a gazillion centuries against India in ODI's, they don't count!

3- Lead Pak to first win in over a decade against Australia and then what? Right after, disgraced Pakistan like no captain ever before and (most probably) ever will!

He sold his country while being the leader of the team and you are advising us of his acahievements as a skipper?

4- Not sure what you call consistency but Mr. Brilliant Consistency averaged an earth shattering 30.88 (less than half a point more than his career average) during 2007-2010. Is that really something to boast about? :

filtered 2007-2010 19 1112 102 30.88 1 1 1/36 88.00 0 5 0

5- Started doing really well in T20's, oh really, his career average is better than what he did in his last 3 years:

Career averages
Span Mat Runs HS Bat Av 100 Wkts BBI Bowl Av 5 Ct St Ave Diff
unfiltered 2007-2010 24 595 74 28.33 0 - - - - 3 0 - Profile
filtered 2007-2010 19 457 73 25.38 0 - - - - 0 0

last 2 years still less and only last year a little over a point better, if that is an earth shattering contribution than la dee da.

Despite all the above he is the worst runner in any format of the game so and so that has a worse run out per innings average than poor runners like Inzi, Dravid, Akram, Hafeez, MoYo etc.

And if I start of about this butter fingered fielder and catcher, we could write a book about that as well. So all in all, what little he brings as a batsman (having done well against 1-2 countries while sucking big time against the rest), he had so many negatives which came as the extra baggage that I am surprised that any sane person would want such a liar and cunning person to be back in the team.

He is someone who lied for nearly 2-3 years after his conviction and prison time till very late when he realised his only way back was to admit his guilt!

 

[kingusama92]

He would be a good ODI opener for us.

Not sure if he truly can earn a spot in the test team as he never was that good.

 

[Laal]

The people who are vitalizing Mohammad Amir should also support Salman Butt and Mohammad Asif.

Otherwise it's clearly a display of hypocriticalness and double standards.

Not necessarily. Amir plead guilty and testified against Butt and Asif. In contrast, Butt and Asif confessed to spot fixing only recently. So this warrants differential treatment.

 

[abc_to_xyz]

Remember him as a wristy opener who scored against the likes of Warne, McGrath.
But the reason for which I'll wish for his return is his near-perfect captaincy he showed in his single captaincy show.

 

[Madplayer]

Truth is, his career is over.

He shouldn't be treated any different from the other two but in all essentiality , he can be sure that he wont be selected ever.

 

[JibranAnsari]

Seems like you have already won a lot of hearts already.. Lol.

 

[JibranAnsari]

Minus australia and this guy averages 25 in test matches.. Lol.

We do not play much cricket against australia anyway and in uae we do well without him against australia.

He bashes india in odis and we do not play india anymore, so thanks.

Do we really need someone who barely averages 30. In test cricket back in the test team.

Over the years we have built a team which has decent test players who average 40 plus.. Before someone says that they have built their averages Playng in uae let me tell you that butt has played 17 out of his 33 matches in subcontinent.. The only argument leftwould be that he might be in underperforming n purpose which can be expected of a cheat if that s the case then you better judge it for yourself.

 

[Analyze1]

yes Salman Butt and Muhammad Asif need a chance to play again good pcb you Muhammad Asif will strike back soon and Salman far better So called Mr hafeez 36

 

[Junaids]

Minus australia and this guy averages 25 in test matches.. Lol.

We do not play much cricket against australia anyway and in uae we do well without him against australia.

He bashes india in odis and we do not play india anymore, so thanks.

Do we really need someone who barely averages 30. In test cricket back in the test team.

Over the years we have built a team which has decent test players who average 40 plus.. Before someone says that they have built their averages Playng in uae let me tell you that butt has played 17 out of his 33 matches in subcontinent.. The only argument leftwould be that he might be in underperforming n purpose which can be expected of a cheat if that s the case then you better judge it for yourself.

Butt played his Tests when an average of 30 was comparable to 40-45 now.

 

[adzzy786]

He can win my heart by staying out of the team. I don't know why people compare Salman's case to Amir's. If you look at the circumstances Amir still young and fairly new to the team, where you have Mr Butt Someone is the captain the head of the team; with vast amount of experience, with a strong financial and educated background. He was corrupt himself and potentially influenced others. Not to mention Amir had the decency to admit it straight away where it took Salman years.

 

[Monsee]

Butt played his Tests when an average of 30 was comparable to 40-45 now.

BS of the highest order...pure BS!

We all know how good he looked most of the time, he was a habitual beaten all ends type of batsman who got bowled/LBW/caught behind by any tom dick and harry type of bowler, not just the best of the best!

Out of 61 total innings this guy got out 43 times less than 40 (mostly 20's and less), what an earth shattering taluunt...and before anyone says he was beginning to improve, let me tell you that is totally untrue as well because in his last 14 tests in the last year (2009-10) he averaged an earth shattering 2 points more than his career average; this despite having a couple of good series towards the end. He was a habitual 2-3 good innings and then a long run of really low scores for a long time type of batsman

 

[Monsee]

He can win my heart by staying out of the team. I don't know why people compare Salman's case to Amir's. If you look at the circumstances Amir still young and fairly new to the team, where you have Mr Butt Someone is the captain the head of the team; with vast amount of experience, with a strong financial and educated background. He was corrupt himself and potentially influenced others. Not to mention Amir had the decency to admit it straight away where it took Salman years.

Top post, this highlights the low and shady type of character this low life had...he lived in model town, went to Dividional Public school (considered quite a good school), had a pretty privelaged life and still did not care for a minute regarding what he was doing and how he was selling the confidence of millions for some quick bucks!

He was probably thinking I will never get caught since no one can think I can do this and then got the shock of his life...yet didn't learn his lesson and blatantly kept saying 'Oh I am inncoent' for the longest time till he realised his only chance of coming back is by admitting his guilt.

 

[AlphaFighter]

Top post, this highlights the low and shady type of character this low life had...he lived in model town, went to Dividional Public school (considered quite a good school), had a pretty privelaged life and still did not care for a minute regarding what he was doing and how he was selling the confidence of millions for some quick bucks!

He was probably thinking I will never get caught since no one can think I can do this and then got the shock of his life...yet didn't learn his lesson and blatantly kept saying 'Oh I am inncoent' for the longest time till he realised his only chance of coming back is by admitting his guilt.

To be fair, the players at the time thought that spot fixing was a minor thing and was not really influencing the outcome of the match and won't be subject to severe criminal penalties. They weren't guilty of match fixing as such.

The media sensationalized the whole thing over the top.

 

[Blistering Barnacle]

Butt played his Tests when an average of 30 was comparable to 40-45 now.

Haha. Whatever shred of credibility you had has gone out the window with this statement.

 

[Blistering Barnacle]

Butt should have been thankful to be in the team despite his awful record, let alone be thankful for being appointed captain!

Instead, he decided to be a fixer. What a fool. Last thing we need is him back in the team - awful player, spot fixing captain - no thanks.

 

[Blistering Barnacle]

They weren't guilty of match fixing as such.

Yeah, they were only busted for spot fixing. What they did in the past, we don't know. But we do know Amir was in touch with bookies well before that England tour. Who knows what was happening.

 

[Markhor]

Top post, this highlights the low and shady type of character this low life had...he lived in model town, went to Dividional Public school (considered quite a good school), had a pretty privelaged life and still did not care for a minute regarding what he was doing and how he was selling the confidence of millions for some quick bucks!

He was probably thinking I will never get caught since no one can think I can do this and then got the shock of his life...yet didn't learn his lesson and blatantly kept saying 'Oh I am inncoent' for the longest time till he realised his only chance of coming back is by admitting his guilt.

I'll add to how disgusting this character is.

After the Oval Test victory he said in the post-match presser that he was dedicating the win to the Pakistani flood victims (this tour was during the 2010 floods that killed over a thousand) and how this was a "gift to the nation".

Someone should've asked was hanging around with Mazhar Majeed, betraying the trust of his board and the captaincy and indulging in spot-fixing another "gift to the nation" ?

 

[Monsee]

^^^He probably thinks of himself (being the mediocre player he is/was) as a gift to the nation as is...and they should not be asking anything else from him!

 

[Monsee]

To be fair, the players at the time thought that spot fixing was a minor thing and was not really influencing the outcome of the match and won't be subject to severe criminal penalties. They weren't guilty of match fixing as such.

The media sensationalized the whole thing over the top.

I agree but how Butt and Asif went about claiming their innocent positions was purely criminal...Butt more so as he was quite blunt and aggressive in stating he had no role in that!

 

[hk031992]

Butt played his Tests when an average of 30 was comparable to 40-45 now.

Lol, just lol

He played in the late 2000's, an extremely batting friendly era, just like today. This post is a complete joke.

 

[AlphaFighter]

I agree but how Butt and Asif went about claiming their innocent positions was purely criminal...Butt more so as he was quite blunt and aggressive in stating he had no role in that!

I agree but then again they might have been given Legal Advice to not to accept their guilt in public. When you are fighting a court battle your statements in court and in public have to be in line with each other.

Also remember out of the Trio the evidence against Asif was the least convincing.

 

[WC-Passion]

If he was actually good it would be awesome to have him in as we've have opener problems for the last 7 years.

 

[Monsee]

I agree but then again they might have been given Legal Advice to not to accept their guilt in public. When you are fighting a court battle your statements in court and in public have to be in line with each other.

Also remember out of the Trio the evidence against Asif was the least convincing.

At least they could have just stayed low and away from public life...Butt was all over the networks and also working as an expert on matches/WC 2015...I mean come on, just enough already, shut up and go away for now!

Asif probably kept the lowest profile which was rather surprising...I am most ticked off at Butt because he comes across as an opportunist who does not care at all

 

[Blistering Barnacle]

Butt played his Tests when an average of 30 was comparable to 40-45 now.

I would like to submit that Junaids is a troll. This statement is clearly trolling.

 

[BDwarriors]

Perform first, rest we will see then.

 

[Haroon786]

Butt played his Tests when an average of 30 was comparable to 40-45 now.

Totally agree, Bradman would have averaged 500 in this era.

 

[Junaids]

I was stating the bleeding obvious when I equated a pre-2010 average of 30 to a post-2012/UAE average of 45.

The likes of Misbah, Hafeez, Azhar and Asad Shafiq have bloated averages compiled in conditions in which you often get more centuries in an innings than historically has been the case in a five Test series.

To be fair, Sangakkara and De Villiers have even better records than they otherwise would have for the same reason.

When Ross Taylor and Adam Voges get close to the Test world record you know that you are living in an era of batting hyperinflation. Whereas Garry Sobers 365 not out remained the record for four decades.

 

[Junaids]

Do people not wonder why Misbah and Younis have higher averages now than a decade ago, when they were better batsmen rather than the current geriatric slow reflex caricatures of themselves?

 

[Monsee]

The issue with your 30 is 40-45 average statement is that Butt is not good for that and never will be...every time fans thought he has turned the corner...he would start scoring 0's and 1's or low 20's scores for the next 8-10-12 innings!

The guy is incapable of averaging so highly unless against Australia in Tests (which I am not sure he will be able to do now against Starc, Hazlewood etc.) and in ODIs mostly against India. Plus that his greed knows no bounds, we are better off investing in a young batsman who will give it his 110% and not chicken out like Butt used to or play hanky panky:

https://youtu.be/fpOlebaK810

 

[Monsee]

Do people not wonder why Misbah and Younis have higher averages now than a decade ago, when they were better batsmen rather than the current geriatric slow reflex caricatures of themselves?

You kidding, YK always averaged in the 40's, stop making a joke of yourself; when was the last time his average dipped below 45? Misbah's case is only because he mostly played in Asia, not that he has had much of a choice, has he?

 

[Majestic_Inzi]

this guy really annoys me, at the time when we were suppose to be dominating cricket this guy totally ruined us. Amir, Asif and Ajmal would all have been fighting for the top bowling rankings at the icc.

Ajmal carried us on his own for a while, but just imagine, Amir, Asif, Irfan and Ajmal. Didnt matter we had 140 on the board, would have had a chance always....

Enough of Butt.

 

[PakWC2015]

I hope he returns. Not because i like him but because people want to bring back Aamir and are willing to forgive and forget. So i look forward to the return of Salman Butt.

 

[rhony]

All you have to do is feast on a few domestic bowlers and the fans will cause an uproar for your return. We've already seen this with Amir

 

[Blistering Barnacle]

I was stating the bleeding obvious when I equated a pre-2010 average of 30 to a post-2012/UAE average of 45.

The likes of Misbah, Hafeez, Azhar and Asad Shafiq have bloated averages compiled in conditions in which you often get more centuries in an innings than historically has been the case in a five Test series.

To be fair, Sangakkara and De Villiers have even better records than they otherwise would have for the same reason.

When Ross Taylor and Adam Voges get close to the Test world record you know that you are living in an era of batting hyperinflation. Whereas Garry Sobers 365 not out remained the record for four decades.

So Afridi would be a 55 average batsman now I guess? He averaged a massive 36 pre-2010.

 

[MenInG]

Salman Butt desperately needs friends...

 

[Junaids]

So Afridi would be a 55 average batsman now I guess? He averaged a massive 36 pre-2010.

Afridi would probably have averaged 45 in Asia on modern pitches.

Unfortunately Test and ODI pitches are mostly bland, flat and devoid of the threat of sideways movement.

 

[Belawal2014]

Salman Butt desperately needs friends...

Cue Drake's song "No new friends".

 

[birdistheword]

First off even if he does finish the ban people would not accept him.. 50/50 opinions with amirs side but this guy's chances don't seem so positive plus to add the matter we can't take out performing player or any player that's new just cause he wants to be back. amir can actually replace any bowler now this dude is a terrible fielder and runner a lil wristy player mostly but nothing that better what we already have. instead of him we should try sami aslam or other deserving people who have yet to get a proper chance

 

[Ironcat]

I was stating the bleeding obvious when I equated a pre-2010 average of 30 to a post-2012/UAE average of 45.

The likes of Misbah, Hafeez, Azhar and Asad Shafiq have bloated averages compiled in conditions in which you often get more centuries in an innings than historically has been the case in a five Test series.

To be fair, Sangakkara and De Villiers have even better records than they otherwise would have for the same reason.

When Ross Taylor and Adam Voges get close to the Test world record you know that you are living in an era of batting hyperinflation. Whereas Garry Sobers 365 not out remained the record for four decades.

Problem with such claims without researching them first is, well, there is no undoing them when something like the following happens:

Butt played from 2003 to Aug 2010.

Test batting average of ALL players all over the world from Jan 2003 to Aug 2010: 35.24

Test batting average of ALL players all over the world from Sep 2010 to Dec 2015: 33.85

So, in reality, Butt played in the golden era of batting. He would have averaged less - like Akmals et al - since then.

The reason why Misbah and YK have performed well now versus 10 years ago is simply because they have grown as batsmen. Learnt more over time. Haven't you yourself over the last 10 years? Learnt more? (I know I have, and Butt says he has.)

 

[aukhan]

He was 27 when he got caught if i remember correctly. If Allah can forgive Amir then he can forgive both Butt and Asif as well

All three should get a fair chance.

 

[octavian]

To be fair. He has served his time and as per the rules is entitled to another chance.

Pretty simple really, yet a very hard concept for some to grasp.

 

[Mamoon]

Not interested in stats.

He was always a good ODI opener and the only Pakistani opener of his time who had the ability to score hundreds. Also, he was beginning to look good in Tests and T20s as well, finally shedding the ODI specialist tag. I think we have better and more explosive options, but we can certainly do with his inclusion in ODIs and Tests.

Of course, it is subject to his form, fitness and attitude, but there's no reason why he should not be allowed back in whereas Amir is being welcomed back with a red carpet. I'd rather not be a shameless hypocrite which is why I am okay with all three returning.

Now please bring the 'he was captain' and the 'ring leader' nonsense back to the table.

 

[Saj]

Well the journey starts again for Salman next month when he will turn out for WAPDA in the national one-day tournament.

Tough road ahead for him.

Must be kicking himself for missing out on the PSL also.

 

[W63L35]

Problem with such claims without researching them first is, well, there is no undoing them when something like the following happens:

Butt played from 2003 to Aug 2010.

Test batting average of ALL players all over the world from Jan 2003 to Aug 2010: 35.24

Test batting average of ALL players all over the world from Sep 2010 to Dec 2015: 33.85

So, in reality, Butt played in the golden era of batting. He would have averaged less - like Akmals et al - since then.

The reason why Misbah and YK have performed well now versus 10 years ago is simply because they have grown as batsmen. Learnt more over time. Haven't you yourself over the last 10 years? Learnt more? (I know I have, and Butt says he has.)

You need to check your numbers again.... according to the statsguru at Cricinfo...

Test batting average of ALL players all over the world from Jan 2003 to Aug 2010: 33.02.....not 35.24

Test batting average of ALL players all over the world from Sep 2010 to Dec 2015: 32.19.....not 33.85


A difference of 33.02 - 32.19 = 0.83 in batting average defines a "Golden era of batting"? Wow!



Here are both links....


http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/en...3;spanval1=span;template=results;type=batting

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/en...0;spanval1=span;template=results;type=batting

 

[Junaids]

But the current and recent averages are inflated by Pakistan playing in the UAE.

Misbah, Hafeez and Younis are both starkly inferior to when they were in their thirties - we see it whenever they venture outside Asia in Tests. Yet they score more runs.

 

[Ironcat]

You need to check your numbers again.... according to the statsguru at Cricinfo...

Test batting average of ALL players all over the world from Jan 2003 to Aug 2010: 33.02.....not 35.24

Test batting average of ALL players all over the world from Sep 2010 to Dec 2015: 32.19.....not 33.85

A difference of 33.02 - 32.19 = 0.83 in batting average defines a "Golden era of batting"? Wow!

1. You didn't need to write this painstaking post. You simply needed to click on the 'Team' tab in your own queries. Here are the links:
http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/en...2003;spanval1=span;template=results;type=team

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/en...2010;spanval1=span;template=results;type=team

Let's see if you can explain the difference between those two and your links. I'll give you the answer in the next post.

2. A proper method to disprove the 'golden era' claim would be to quote here the batting averages from all other eras and reveal your white-knight era as being different from what I identified. Something like this:

Batting averages in the 8-year chunks in the modern cricketing history:

1979 to 1986: 30.17
http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/en...9;spanval2=span;template=results;type=batting

1987 to 1994: 30.52
http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/en...7;spanval2=span;template=results;type=batting

1995 to 2002: 29.34
http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/en...5;spanval2=span;template=results;type=batting

Butt's time: 33.02

After Butt: 32.19

3. The purpose of my post was to provide a rebuttal (no pun intended) to the 30-vs-45-average claim. Either method proves it. That claim was as illogical as the one below:

But the current and recent averages are inflated by Pakistan playing in the UAE.

Yet, the "inflated" averages are lower than those from the non-UAE era.

 

[W63L35]

1. You didn't need to write this painstaking post. You simply needed to click on the 'Team' tab in your own queries. Here are the links:
http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/en...2003;spanval1=span;template=results;type=team

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/en...2010;spanval1=span;template=results;type=team

Let's see if you can explain the difference between those two and your links. I'll give you the answer in the next post.

I don't know what your "explanation" is going to be..... but your "team" average include "extras"..... but mine don't.

SO if you still are calling 2003-2010 "a Golden era of batting vs 2010-2015 based on number of extras then have at it..... as far as I am concerned, it is extremely useless to have a discussion with you ... and even read or reply you points # 2 and #3.


By the why, he is not my white knight... I was just pointing out a flaw in your calculations and fault in your assumptions on which you were building your whole argument. That's all.

You can call anybody most pathetic batsman on the Earth without any reasoning....... go for it, it is "almost" a free forum! I am sure, you don't need my permission!

 

[Ironcat]

I don't know what your "explanation" is going to be..... but your "team" average include "extras"..... but mine don't.

SO if you still are calling 2003-2010 "a Golden era of batting vs 2010-2015 based on number of extras then have at it..... as far as I am concerned, it is extremely useless to have a discussion with you ... and even read or reply you points # 2 and #3.


By the why, he is not my white knight... I was just pointing out a flaw in your calculations and fault in your assumptions on which you were building your whole argument. That's all.

You can call anybody most pathetic batsman on the Earth without any reasoning....... go for it, it is "almost" a free forum! I am sure, you don't need my permission!

No, I'm not calling 2003-2010 the golden era based on extras, I'm calling it based on what you conveniently decided to ignore. That is, it was the highest averaging era in modern cricketing history bar none. Point # 2. You can go ahead and call 2010-2015 a "silver" batting era (or whatever you want) if you are really feeling like it - but there was no flaw in any calculation.

Whether you used team-based numbers or batsmen-based numbers, the conclusion was the same: 2003 to 2010 held the highest batting averages in modern cricketing history. Feel free to disprove it.

 

[Ironcat]

During the time Butt played, an average batsman (where the definition of a batsman = any player in the playing eleven) scored 33 to 35 runs (depending on which method of calculation you use).

Butt averaged 30 runs.

He was literally below average.

 

[W63L35]

Let's see if you can explain the difference between those two and your links. I'll give you the answer in the next post.

Still waiting your explanation of the "difference"???
View attachment 63025

No, I'm not calling 2003-2010 the golden era based on extras,

Batting vs Team averages.........what is the difference? Bye, Leg byes, No Balls, Wide! What else?

I'm calling it based on what you conveniently decided to ignore.

Only thing I ignored was "EXTRAS"....which you included to prove that decade of 2000 was a "golden age of batting"!

That is, it was the highest averaging era in modern cricketing history bar none.

Point # 2. You can go ahead and call 2010-2015 a "silver" batting era (or whatever you want) if you are really feeling like it - but there was no flaw in any calculation.

BY decade..... 2010 and afterwards....has better BATTING average than 2000-2009.
Of course I have excluded and ignored "Extras - no balls, wides, Byes and leg byes" because these runs have nothing to do with the batting.

 

[Ironcat]

Still waiting your explanation of the "difference"???

Batting vs Team averages.........what is the difference? Bye, Leg byes, No Balls, Wide! What else?

Only thing I ignored was "EXTRAS"....which you included to prove that decade of 2000 was a "golden age of batting"!

Let's parse through your statistics logic.

1. You have written about 10 paragraphs in this thread about the use of "extras" without proving that their inclusion in or exclusion from the numbers has any statistical significance. Can you prove significance? Can you prove that my argument - a.k.a hypothesis - about Butt's playing time as the golden era in modern cricketing history is null due to the inclusion/exclusion of "extras" at, say, a 5% significance level?

2. You have touted the 0.66 run difference in averages due to "extras" as a flaw in my argument - yet your own whole argument was to dismiss an "insignificant" 0.83 difference in the overall averages. Simple math question: which number is higher? 0.83 or 0.66? If 0.83 is insignificant, what does that make 0.66?

3. Yes, the difference between those two tabs is individual player vs team averages due to extras. The difference is meaningless to me, which is why I didn't use it. Why? Simple logic on two counts:

A. Because if a bowler is giving you free runs, you need not score those runs on your own. This logic remains valid no matter which time slice you pick up; and

B. It doesn't matter here. BOTH methods give you the SAME conclusion.

BY decade..... 2010 and afterwards....has better BATTING average than 2000-2009.
Of course I have excluded and ignored "Extras - no balls, wides, Byes and leg byes" because these runs have nothing to do with the batting.

Let's count how many things are wrong with this argument.

4. The argument was about Butt's playing time. Butt played for about 8 years, so we sliced the time in 8-year chunks both before and after he played. To prove your argument moot, we used YOUR OWN method - i.e. individual player batting averages. Point # 2 in my previous post.

You decided to ignore it. What's more you came back with batting averages by decades. Why? Did Butt play for a decade? Did he not play for (less than) 8 years? Does it make statistical sense to introduce a new variable (length of time) in proving/disproving an argument around Butt's playing time? Why not pick single years? Why not pick 20-year time slices? How about 15 years? How about 12 years? How about a different time slice in every data point?

5. Butt played 8 of his 33 tests i.e. ~25% of his tests in 2010. You chose time slices that put 75% of his games in one slice and 25% in the other. This was in response to an argument isolating his entire playing time as the best playing time.

In statistical terms, you used the training data for testing purposes. In logic, you committed the fallacy known as illicit major. In English, the argument was a fail.

6. You ignored point # 2 above. Did you read it? Does "modern" cricketing history mean anything to you? If it does, do you feel 1940s numbers when Pakistan was mostly not even a country - let alone a test cricketing nation - are valid comparisons with 2000s numbers for a Pakistani batsman? If so, why? What's your definition of "modern"?

7. You ignored point # 2 above. Fine, let's ignore reading comprehension for a moment. You roped in numbers from 1870s to 1940s to compare with 2000s. Why? Do you feel the only difference between an 1870's batsman and a 2000's batsman is the ease of batting in 2000s?

 

[W63L35]

^^
I have no idea why you are wasting your breath on points which are totally irrelevant to your claim in this post.......

Butt played from 2003 to Aug 2010.

Test batting average of ALL players all over the world from Jan 2003 to Aug 2010: 35.24

Test batting average of ALL players all over the world from Sep 2010 to Dec 2015: 33.85

So, in reality, Butt played in the golden era of batting. He would have averaged less - like Akmals et al - since then.

All I did was question your statement ... about "Golden Era of Batting"....based on two averages you listed!!! I mean, I showed you that the averages WITHOUT extras and the difference was nominal.

Let me ask you this...3rd time!
Why did you call 2003-2010 "Gold Era of Batting" as oppose to "2011-2015"..when actual number are below?

Test batting average of ALL players all over the world from Jan 2003 to Aug 2010: 33.02
Test batting average of ALL players all over the world from Sep 2010 to Dec 2015: 32.19

Problem with such claims without researching them first is, well, there is no undoing them when something like the following happens:

May be you needed to do a little more research.... to see how much difference "extras" make in batting average of a team?


O I did see one relevant point in your post....

3. Yes, the difference between those two tabs is individual player vs team averages due to extras. The difference is meaningless to me, which is why I didn't use it. Why? Simple logic on two counts:

B. It doesn't matter here. BOTH methods give you the SAME conclusion.

If it does not matter then ...... on what basis (difference of batting average = 0.83) one era 2003-2010 becomes "Gold Era of Batting" and other one (2011-2015) does not?

All I am trying to say is ..... you can not draw "huge" conclusions/assumption ...just based of the fact that one era had 0.83 point better average.

.... and if it makes you feel better.... Salman Butt is worse batsman than Chris Martin. Happy?

 

[Ironcat]

I have no idea why you are wasting your breath on points which are totally irrelevant to your claim in this post.......

Wait a minute. I am responding to your post # 75. You wrote it, didn't you? If I shouldn't waste my breath on responding to that post, what does it make that post?

If #75 is indeed your post and you want to stand by it, let's not run away from my arguments. Let's respond to them. Specifically, 76.1, 76.2, 76.4 through 76.7. (I see you took on 76.3 below.)

All I did was question your statement ... about "Golden Era of Batting"....based on two averages you listed!!! I mean, I showed you that the averages WITHOUT extras and the difference was nominal.

Let me ask you this...3rd time!
Why did you call 2003-2010 "Gold Era of Batting" as oppose to "2011-2015"..when actual number are below?

Test batting average of ALL players all over the world from Jan 2003 to Aug 2010: 33.02
Test batting average of ALL players all over the world from Sep 2010 to Dec 2015: 32.19

Well, you don't need to ask me your questions a third time -- if you can read my answer the first time around! Here is a direct quote from my post # 71. Specifically, 71.2:

Batting averages in the 8-year chunks in the modern cricketing history:

1979 to 1986: 30.17
http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/eng...s;type=batting

1987 to 1994: 30.52
http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/eng...s;type=batting

1995 to 2002: 29.34
http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/eng...s;type=batting

Butt's time: 33.02

After Butt: 32.19

1. Butt's time is the approx 8 years after 2002. We are about 60% of our way into the current 8-year chunk. I assumed you would understand that the higher the batting average in an 8-year chunk, the more batting friendly that chunk. Maybe I assumed wrong. Let me spell it out. I see Butt's time as having the highest batting average, so that's why it was the 'golden era'. Better now?

2. Your counter is, the time after Butt is only marginally lower. Well, too bad. It is still LOWER. Not higher. (Marginally lower could have been marginally higher.) And even if it is only marginally lower, that post-Butt time - at best - shares the "golden era" award with Butt's time. Butt's time remains the most prolific yet - exclusively or jointly - for batting in modern times.

3. More importantly, however, YOU need to prove that the 0.83 difference is statistically insignificant. Questioning the highest batting average time by dismissing the 0.83 differential was YOUR argument, so let's see your proof of its insignificance. I'd welcome a proof of a lack of statistical significance, but any proof would do.

4. (Repeat of 76.2) Why is 0.83 insignificant - but 0.66 is not?

If it does not matter then ...... on what basis (difference of batting average = 0.83) one era 2003-2010 becomes "Gold Era of Batting" and other one (2011-2015) does not?

You think the "SAME conclusion" I referred to was, both time slices had the same batting average?

Instead of something like .... Butt's time had the highest average regardless of which method you chose?

 

[BDwarriors]

Its time to get butt selected. A position is available after hafiz and azhars resign.

 

[Gabbar Singh]

12 month on has he won over many hearts?