ICC Test Rankings : India displaced from top place for the first time since October 2016

[tyron_woodley]

Who cares? The rankings aren't even transparent. The WTC winner will be my numero uno!

nope World test championship means f all if you aren't the true number 1. Any crappy team can win a one off test.

it's a total farce.

number 1 ranking is the true indicator of being a dominant team.

I don't see australia lasting long whatsoever. if india, s.africa get their stuff together it's over for them.

 

[The cricket enthusiast]

Pakistan shuffling along in 7th place.

What a mediocre Test team we have become in recent times.

We keep using the excuse that we are in a rebuilding phase, but how long can that excuse keep being used.

atleast under Mickey its looked like A team
now we have no idea what they are Upto.
most clueless person in charge.

 

[Buffet]

How long Aus keeps it will matter a lot more than just getting to rank 1. When is Aus touring Asian countries? Performance in Asian countries will determine if they can hold it for years.

 

[andy0204]

How long Aus keeps it will matter a lot more than just getting to rank 1. When is Aus touring Asian countries? Performance in Asian countries will determine if they can hold it for years.

Australia tours in 2022 are in subcontinent.
2 tests in U.A.E/Pakistan
2 tests in Srilanka
1 test vs Afghanistan in India
4 tests in India

 

[Junaids]

Pakistan shuffling along in 7th place.

What a mediocre Test team we have become in recent times.

We keep using the excuse that we are in a rebuilding phase, but how long can that excuse keep being used.

The rankings are inherently more out of date than the World Test Championship table.

Pakistan is 5th, just, but would have gone 3rd if the Bangladesh Test had taken place and been won. Even if they drew it they would be fourth.

I’m no fan of Misbah, but Pakistan is realistically somewhere between 3rd and 5th.

 

[therealAB]

obviously happy

No country is super dominant atm, capable of winning everywhere like previous SA, WI, Aus teams

 

[Mesozoic]

Pakistan also played some of their home series in England. Lets play against them there bro. I am sure being an ex number 1 test team we can whitewash them in England.

That was one series back in 2010. ECB then realized it's not a good idea , so they moved back to the UAE and remained there until 2019. But I see your point. Pakistan can be competitive against "us" in England and probably New Zealand. Anywhere else in the world, it'll be a one sided contest.

 

[Mesozoic]

Last time India played a series in Pakistan they lost too.

Yes. And that was when both the teams were pretty much on equal footing. Pak had a superior bowling attack too.

Until India and Pakistan play each other you can only speculate. Fact is Pakistan is comfortably ahead in this rivalry. Pakistan has won more head-to-head. Pakistan has won more series in India than India has in Pakistan. And it didn't take Pakistan 50 years to win a series in India which is as long as it took India to win one in Pakistan.

Pak had a much superior team until the 2000s. So obviously they'll have a superior record. What does that have to do with the current scenario ?

 

[Ab Fan]

Yes. And that was when both the teams were pretty much on equal footing. Pak had a superior bowling attack too.



Pak had a much superior team until the 2000s. So obviously they'll have a superior record. What does that have to do with the current scenario ?

Pak had a superior team to India only in 80s and 90s. Before that, India was better. We had Bedi and Chandra from the mid 60s to the late 70s and Gavaskar was one of the best batsmen of 70s decade. While for Pakistan, Miandad,Zaheer and IK started emerging a force only by the late 70s.

It's unfortunate that India didn't played Pakistan in 60s and 70s where we would had an edge.

 

[Saj]

The rankings are inherently more out of date than the World Test Championship table.

Pakistan is 5th, just, but would have gone 3rd if the Bangladesh Test had taken place and been won. Even if they drew it they would be fourth.

I’m no fan of Misbah, but Pakistan is realistically somewhere between 3rd and 5th.

Forget 3rd or 5th or whatever you say they are. Pakistan is currently a poor Test team, a brittle batting line-up, with largely emerging but inexperienced bowlers.

Lots of improvement is needed.

 

[Mesozoic]

It's unfortunate that India didn't played Pakistan in 60s and 70s where we would had an edge.

Also in the 2010s. We would have surely surged ahead in the H2H atleast in Tests.

 

[Pakhs]

Only once did Pakistan have "done well" against India with a weaker side and that was the 2005 series where Pak team had a middle order of Inzi , YK and MoYo. And the first two had first innings scores of 184 and 267 respectively in the game they won. Agree India were a better side , but the gap wasn't as wide as it is now. India now are a vastly improved test side especially in the bowling department and Pak's batting against spin bowling has regressed dramatically. A series between the two teams anywhere in the SC would be a one-sided affair.

On Paper yes but Pakistan have done well against India several times with weaker sides for example even in 2004 when India won in Pakistan they were way superior and Pakistan were yet to recover from losing their start players in early 2000s / post World cup but stil India won by a single game. And then Pakistan also beat India at home with India having a start studded batting line up. The reason I believe is familiarity of SC conditions. If the conditions are familiar and things go your way in the match Toss / luck etc you can beat a stronger side.

 

[BoomBoomCricket]

Pakistan have only lost 10 of their last 34 Test series since 2010. They've done well in Tests over the last decade. Their record is most impressive in this format compared to other formats.

 

[Mesozoic]

And then Pakistan also beat India at home with India having a start studded batting line up. The reason I believe is familiarity of SC conditions. If the conditions are familiar and things go your way in the match Toss / luck etc you can beat a stronger side.

Only reason why Pak beat us in a game in that series was down to them having an ATG middle order of Inzi, YK and MoYo, who were world class against spin bowling. Not a single current Pak player is as good as them when it comes to playing spin and India's spin attack has only gotten stronger. I really doubt if they can handle Ash/Jad when they couldn't handle a couple of rookie NZ spinners in Abu Dhabi.

 

[Bhaag Viru Bhaag]

Those who have actually watched Ind vs Pak matches live knows there is no such thing as strong team or weak team when it comes to these two teams. Ind vs Pak always starts with 50-50. Weaker indian teams have beaten Pakistan and vice versa. That's why Ind and Pak are arch rivals.

I find it funny that those who have never seen the best of Ind vs Pak in their lives and those who loves to play on paper are predicting results of the matches between these two teams. Ofcourse if IPL teams can beat international T20 teams in their dreams then this is nothing.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

Pak had a superior team to India only in 80s and 90s. Before that, India was better. We had Bedi and Chandra from the mid 60s to the late 70s and Gavaskar was one of the best batsmen of 70s decade. While for Pakistan, Miandad,Zaheer and IK started emerging a force only by the late 70s.

It's unfortunate that India didn't played Pakistan in 60s and 70s where we would had an edge.

Well India did tour Pakistan in 1978. That counts as the 1970s. Which basically ended the career of Bedi.

 

[Pakhs]

Only reason why Pak beat us in a game in that series was down to them having an ATG middle order of Inzi, YK and MoYo, who were world class against spin bowling. Not a single current Pak player is as good as them when it comes to playing spin and India's spin attack has only gotten stronger. I really doubt if they can handle Ash/Jad when they couldn't handle a couple of rookie NZ spinners in Abu Dhabi.

In limited over cricket Pakistan record is reasonably good against both of them specially Ash. Jadeja will trouble Pakistan more and India will start favourites. UAE is different ball game it just becomes too difficult to play any kind of bowling all of a sudden in 4th innings.

 

[Ab Fan]

Well India did tour Pakistan in 1978. That counts as the 1970s. Which basically ended the career of Bedi.

That is what I said. Pakistan started emerging as force only in late 70s and that was the time India moved on to transition as Bedi and Chandra both were on last legs, they had been playing from last 13-14 years.

Their peak was late 60s to mid- 70s when this spin duo was winning us test series in England and Windies and India also attained no.1 ranking for short period. What amazes me though is that Indian team went on to beat Pakistan in 1980 series 2-0 without any quality spinner, we had Kapil, Ghavre and Doshi and yet we won comfortably.

 

[Rajdeep]

Those who have actually watched Ind vs Pak matches live knows there is no such thing as strong team or weak team when it comes to these two teams. Ind vs Pak always starts with 50-50. Weaker indian teams have beaten Pakistan and vice versa. That's why Ind and Pak are arch rivals.

I find it funny that those who have never seen the best of Ind vs Pak in their lives and those who loves to play on paper are predicting results of the matches between these two teams. Ofcourse if IPL teams can beat international T20 teams in their dreams then this is nothing.

This arch rival thing is in your mind and for those supporters who are still stuck in the 90s. In reality there is no current rivalry as Indian cricket has left Pakistan in the dust.

Did it look like rivalry to you when these two met in last Asia cup matches?

Where was the rivalry when India beat them in one sided affair in Manchester in last year? Or the world cup in 2015? Or the T20 WC in 2016?

10 wicket win in U19 WC this year or 264 run win in 2018 - were those signs of rivalry?

In last few years, except that one game on 18th June 2017, Pakistan has not even competed with India...let alone beating us.
And with the retirement of greats like Younis Khan, Afridi, Ajmal, Misbah etc. this gap will only going to increase further.

Now compare it with India's matches with BD in recent past. They have competed with us in all levels and at all tournaments. Barring hard luck they would have beaten us in few of them. That is how you build and sustain a rivalry, not by meek surrender that Pak does on the matches against India.

Unless Pakistan improve its cricket on the field..there is no rivalry. We can get all nostalgic thinking about past and forcefully make it a one. But in reality there are none.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

That is what I said. Pakistan started emerging as force only in late 70s and that was the time India moved on to transition as Bedi and Chandra both were on last legs, they had been playing from last 13-14 years.

Their peak was late 60s to mid- 70s when this spin duo was winning us test series in England and Windies and India also attained no.1 ranking for short period. What amazes me though is that Indian team went on to beat Pakistan in 1980 series 2-0 without any quality spinner, we had Kapil, Ghavre and Doshi and yet we won comfortably.

Pakistan played poorly in that series while Gavaskar and Kapil were simply unstoppable. They lifted an unimpressive Indian team to a comfortable series win. On the other hand, Pakistan as usual were embroiled in backstage politics. Not that that is any excuse. But removing Mushtaq Mohammad from captaincy just before the series when he had led Pakistan to a 1-1 draw in Australia was certainly one of the biggest blunders. It was another case of the senior players using their egos to cause damage to the side. Mushtaq could have been one of Pakistan's best ever captains, sadly he never had a chance.

On the other hand, Pakistan got their revenge with the drubbing they gave India in 1982.

 

[Bhaag Viru Bhaag]

This arch rival thing is in your mind and for those supporters who are still stuck in the 90s. In reality there is no current rivalry as Indian cricket has left Pakistan in the dust.

Did it look like rivalry to you when these two met in last Asia cup matches?

Where was the rivalry when India beat them in one sided affair in Manchester in last year? Or the world cup in 2015? Or the T20 WC in 2016?

10 wicket win in U19 WC this year or 264 run win in 2018 - were those signs of rivalry?

In last few years, except that one game on 18th June 2017, Pakistan has not even competed with India...let alone beating us.
And with the retirement of greats like Younis Khan, Afridi, Ajmal, Misbah etc. this gap will only going to increase further.

Now compare it with India's matches with BD in recent past. They have competed with us in all levels and at all tournaments. Barring hard luck they would have beaten us in few of them. That is how you build and sustain a rivalry, not by meek surrender that Pak does on the matches against India.

Unless Pakistan improve its cricket on the field..there is no rivalry. We can get all nostalgic thinking about past and forcefully make it a one. But in reality there are none.

So in your opinion rivalry is only possible when both the teams are at the same level? That means there was no rivalry in 90s also when Pakistan was beating us left, right and center and the effect of that can still be seen in their Head to Head record against us today.

The number of people who watch Ind vs Pak or the build up to each and every IndoPak match is nothing lol? What about indian media reporting every minute detail before each IndoPak match? Statements of ex cricketers, politicians, celebrities before match? All these things create rivalry not the strength of teams.

 

[Buffet]

Australia tours in 2022 are in subcontinent.
2 tests in U.A.E/Pakistan
2 tests in Srilanka
1 test vs Afghanistan in India
4 tests in India

For 2 years, they don't have Asian tours impacting their ratings in a big way. If it was spread out, it would have been different, but here they have all of them in one cluster.

 

[andy0204]

For 2 years, they don't have Asian tours impacting their ratings in a big way. If it was spread out, it would have been different, but here they have all of them in one cluster.

Langer and Smith have said that their priority is to win the series in India.
They are desperate,I think they will win in Srilanka since Herath is retired and lack of bowlers they have but it's difficult to win against India and Pakistan.

 

[Asifnow]

nope World test championship means f all if you aren't the true number 1. Any crappy team can win a one off test.

it's a total farce.

number 1 ranking is the true indicator of being a dominant team.

I don't see australia lasting long whatsoever. if india, s.africa get their stuff together it's over for them.

It's not a one off test. It's a series of test matches leading to a final. You might wana look up what the WTC is mate

 

[Asifnow]

Pakistan's record in England is much better than India's whereas India's record against Australia in Australia is slightly better. Pakistan have played a total of 136 matches in SENA where as has played 155 matches in SENA. India tour these countries regularly, players get the experience of playing in those conditions still our record there is not that impressive.

If a series is played in England/NZ, Pakistan will be favorite. In Aus/ SA it will be 50-50.

Away stats of both teams :

India in Eng:
Played : 62
Won : 7
Lost : 34
Drawn : 21
W/L Ratio : .205

India in Aus:
Played : 48
Won : 7
Lost : 29
Drawn : 18
W/L Ratio : 0.241

India in NZ:
Played : 25
Won : 5
Lost : 10
Drawn : 10
W/L Ratio : .500

India in SA
Played : 20
Won : 3
Lost : 10
Draw : 7
W/L Ratio : 0.300

---------------------------------------------

Pakistan in Eng:
Played : 53
Won : 12
Lost : 23
Drawn : 21
W/L Ratio : .521

Pakistan in Aus:
Played : 37
Won : 4
Lost : 26
Drawn : 7
W/L Ratio : 0.153

Pakistan in NZ:
Played : 31
Won : 10
Lost : 7
Drawn : 14
W/L Ratio : 1.428

Pakistan in SA:
Played : 15
Won : 2
Lost : 12
Drawn : 1
W/L Ratio : 0.166

Great work but I'm not saying India are that much better but in reality, they are a better test side and would likely perform better in most conditions compared to this Pakistan side. If the current Pak squad develops well, they could have a better chance of winnings.

 

[Saj]

Pakistan have only lost 10 of their last 34 Test series since 2010. They've done well in Tests over the last decade. Their record is most impressive in this format compared to other formats.

If we are looking at numbers, we could also say that they have only won 4 out of their last 12 Test series since November 2016.

1 of these were against West Indies, 1 against Sri Lanka, 1 versus Ireland and the other was against Australia in UAE.

 

[tyron_woodley]

It's not a one off test. It's a series of test matches leading to a final. You might wana look up what the WTC is mate

yes but what I am saying is losing a one off final doesn't mean squat if the number 1 ranked team loses the grand final despite beating everyone else consistently.

WTC shouldn't have some rubbish one off test final. Should be a proper home and away series to determine who truly is the number 1 side.

 

[tyron_woodley]

This arch rival thing is in your mind and for those supporters who are still stuck in the 90s. In reality there is no current rivalry as Indian cricket has left Pakistan in the dust.

Did it look like rivalry to you when these two met in last Asia cup matches?

Where was the rivalry when India beat them in one sided affair in Manchester in last year? Or the world cup in 2015? Or the T20 WC in 2016?

10 wicket win in U19 WC this year or 264 run win in 2018 - were those signs of rivalry?

In last few years, except that one game on 18th June 2017, Pakistan has not even competed with India...let alone beating us.
And with the retirement of greats like Younis Khan, Afridi, Ajmal, Misbah etc. this gap will only going to increase further.

Now compare it with India's matches with BD in recent past. They have competed with us in all levels and at all tournaments. Barring hard luck they would have beaten us in few of them. That is how you build and sustain a rivalry, not by meek surrender that Pak does on the matches against India.

Unless Pakistan improve its cricket on the field..there is no rivalry. We can get all nostalgic thinking about past and forcefully make it a one. But in reality there are none.

lol no. Pakistan will always be our main rivals in Asia. Bangladesh still has a long way to go.
But yes india is much stronger than pakistan and the gap could get wider as the Indian economy improves.

 

[viveks]

Those who have actually watched Ind vs Pak matches live knows there is no such thing as strong team or weak team when it comes to these two teams. Ind vs Pak always starts with 50-50. Weaker indian teams have beaten Pakistan and vice versa. That's why Ind and Pak are arch rivals.

I find it funny that those who have never seen the best of Ind vs Pak in their lives and those who loves to play on paper are predicting results of the matches between these two teams. Ofcourse if IPL teams can beat international T20 teams in their dreams then this is nothing.

That is generally less true in Tests though...Although I think there is a point to be made that both teams would find it to be familiar in terms of conditions so it would be a close match up even if one team is stronger. Kind of like SA vs Aus has been

 

[Oxfordchamp]

India is the only country that's among top 3 in all formats..kudos..

 

[TeymurBlake]

Difference of Pak being in top 3 or 4 vs being no 7 is loosing home series to Srl and NZ in UAE. Just recently Pak was able to beat Srl in Pak 1-0 which could have been 2-0 if it wasnt for rain. If Pak starts to get as many home series at actual home as some other, I only see improvement in rankings from there.

Poor part of last 2-3 years for Pak in tests was faltering in home series which isnt gonna happen in every season. Pak has won last home series against Aus, Eng, Srl, WI while with SA the series was drawn, so Pak can be as dangerous at home as any other team especially with Babar, Shaheen and other young players in the picture gaining experience and finding their feet at test level. If teams start touring regularly in Pak then that would be a different ball game altogether with much better curators and setup than before along with players playing where they have been brought up which makes a much bigger difference than many realize.

I understand what you're saying. My point is with poor players we can't go forward. Also our home records isn't bad, its our away form which is poor. Poor players selected, lack of training to acclimatise with conditions and overall poor performances. Keeping the three players named are just such players that aren't helping.

 

[Asifnow]

yes but what I am saying is losing a one off final doesn't mean squat if the number 1 ranked team loses the grand final despite beating everyone else consistently.

WTC shouldn't have some rubbish one off test final. Should be a proper home and away series to determine who truly is the number 1 side.

The two sides with the best records will reach the final, what's the complaint? What will a home and away series accomplish? Imagine its India and England, you think India is beating England in England or vice versa?

It is what it is and that is far better than a ranking system which is deeply flawed.

 

[tyron_woodley]

The two sides with the best records will reach the final, what's the complaint? What will a home and away series accomplish? Imagine its India and England, you think India is beating England in England or vice versa?

It is what it is and that is far better than a ranking system which is deeply flawed.

nah it's not good enough. what if say india finishes with 300 points for example and England scrape through into the second slot at 220. Somehow now England gets home advantage and will vs the top team india in the final. That's not fair.

Should be a 3 test home and away series and the overall h2h Victor will be the champion.

I don't like this bullsh*t one off odi grand final.esque system for tests.

ranking system isn't flawed. You beat who they put in front of you.

 

[Asifnow]

nah it's not good enough. what if say india finishes with 300 points for example and England scrape through into the second slot at 220. Somehow now England gets home advantage and will vs the top team india in the final. That's not fair.

Should be a 3 test home and away series and the overall h2h Victor will be the champion.

I don't like this bullsh*t one off odi grand final.esque system for tests.

ranking system isn't flawed. You beat who they put in front of you.

If you think the ranking system is better thats fine mate but you probably dont know much about it.

 

[Aman]

[MENTION=150610]tyron_woodley[/MENTION] not only did we knock you out of a WC, we took your number one ranking from you

 

[therealAB]

nah it's not good enough. what if say india finishes with 300 points for example and England scrape through into the second slot at 220. Somehow now England gets home advantage and will vs the top team india in the final. That's not fair.

Should be a 3 test home and away series and the overall h2h Victor will be the champion.

I don't like this bullsh*t one off odi grand final.esque system for tests.

ranking system isn't flawed. You beat who they put in front of you.

So do you believe Aus is a better test team than India

 

[tyron_woodley]

If you think the ranking system is better thats fine mate but you probably dont know much about it.

that's what someone says if they have nothing to say.

like I said a championship final loss to the number 1 ranked team means squat. If they dominated the league standings that's all matters.

 

[therealAB]

that's what someone says if they have nothing to say.

like I said a championship final loss to the number 1 ranked team means squat. If they dominated the league standings that's all matters.

what do you think about the world cup? The Australian team one it three time in a row, so if you are good enough teams will step up

The test championship is not perfect, but its pretty good.

 

[tyron_woodley]

[MENTION=150610]tyron_woodley[/MENTION] not only did we knock you out of a WC, we took your number one ranking from you

well n.z is a strong side at home. But won't be long before india take a back their crown.

 

[tyron_woodley]

what do you think about the world cup? The Australian team one it three time in a row, so if you are good enough teams will step up

The test championship is not perfect, but its pretty good.

Australia's world cup wins in 07 and 03 were near perfect. They barely lost a single game in those 2 world cups. I don't even think they lost? Can't remember. Anyway they were legit champions.

But pak 1992 for example was bullsh*t. They lost serial games in the group stages etc and they were exactly dominate during any stage of the tournament. You got to win the maximum amount of games possible to be considered a true champion.

I am saying this can't be applied to a test championship. A team that dominates the ladder is the true champion. A grand final between the top 2 teams should be a proper series played at both home andnaway to determine who truly is the legit champion.

Not a bullsh*t one off test final.

 

[tyron_woodley]

Australia's world cup wins in 07 and 03 were near perfect. They barely lost a single game in those 2 world cups. I don't even think they lost? Can't remember. Anyway they were legit champions.

But pak 1992 for example was bullsh*t. They lost serial games in the group stages etc and they were exactly dominate during any stage of the tournament. You got to win the maximum amount of games possible to be considered a true champion.

I am saying this can't be applied to a test championship. A team that dominates the ladder is the true champion. A grand final between the top 2 teams should be a proper series played at both home andnaway to determine who truly is the legit champion.

Not a bullsh*t one off test final.

They lost several games I mean
They weren't exactly dominant*.

 

[therealAB]

They lost several games I mean
They weren't exactly dominant*.

I feel that the test championship addresses many of these issues, as the teams make the final based purely off their test series, not any knockouts. The 5 day format of test cricket also ensures that the results are less volatile, as teams can come back in test cricket

 

[tyron_woodley]

I feel that the test championship addresses many of these issues, as the teams make the final based purely off their test series, not any knockouts. The 5 day format of test cricket also ensures that the results are less volatile, as teams can come back in test cricket

how ? toss still seems to make a humongous difference. just look at stats in countries like n.z, australia and England.
Away teams' chances of Winning drastically reduced if they lose the toss.
I know there is nothing we can do about the tosses but I would personally prefer to see a grand final between the top 2 teams played over a 3 test series to determine the winner. It's unfair to the team that dominates the ladder if they lose a one off grand final.