If we were all atheists?

[PakLFC]

Would the world be more peaceful if we were all atheists? Hey, we all believe in no divine force now so just one big happy family?? I think countries will still fight over land and the earth's resources.

 

[DW44]

At a macro level (i.e. dealings between nation states), the world wouldn't necessarily be more peaceful since most conflict at that level tends to be geopolitical, not ideological. At a lower level though, i.e. conflicts that exist within the borders of a nation state, there will be a massive improvement in places where most major social issues are religious in nature e.g. Pakistan, India, the Middle East and so on. The world will only be marginally more peaceful all things considered since international conflicts will persist but the lack of religion will spur serious social development in places that are held back by conservative religious cultures.

 

[Madplayer]

Religious conflicts are not the only conflicts in the world.

Caste, class, race, ethnicity, economic struggle, struggle for political power etc etc. are plaguing the earth everywhere.

People find one thing or the other to fight over.

 

[Slog]

At a macro level (i.e. dealings between nation states), the world wouldn't necessarily be more peaceful since most conflict at that level tends to be geopolitical, not ideological. At a lower level though, i.e. conflicts that exist within the borders of a nation state, there will be a massive improvement in places where most major social issues are religious in nature e.g. Pakistan, India, the Middle East and so on. The world will only be marginally more peaceful all things considered since international conflicts will persist but the lack of religion will spur serious social development in places that are held back by conservative religious cultures.

I disagree. Most internal issues within a country often stem from ethnicity.

Probably you'd need all atheists, a homogoneous society in racial terms as well as socioeconomic equality for your utopian society

 

[Madplayer]

And given the fact that atheism can manifest itself into literally anything in the name of materialism/progress, the exploitation of poor/uneducated/gullible by the powerful people will continue unabated at a micro level as well. Such people would be kept busy fighting for issues like race, social customs etc by powerful people so their exploitation could continue.

 

[CricketCartoons]

There would be anarchy and loss of morality. Debauchery and depravity will be rampant. atheism and anarchy are cousins and their aim is the eradication of the values which have worked for the last 5000 years.

 

[pillionrider]

There would be anarchy and loss of morality. Debauchery and depravity will be rampant. atheism and anarchy are cousins and their aim is the eradication of the values which have worked for the last 5000 years.

Morality is a human trait. Religion is a human creation.

 

[pillionrider]

Morality is a human trait. Religion is a human creation.

Actually when you think about it, morality is an evolutionary trait rather than just limited to humans.

Most dogs will not attack a defenseless baby or puppy.

 

[DW44]

I disagree. Most internal issues within a country often stem from ethnicity.

Probably you'd need all atheists, a homogoneous society in racial terms as well as socioeconomic equality for your utopian society

Depends on the place. In Pakistan or India for instance, the most serious issues in recent times all have a religious angle, not an ethnic one. That's not to say that ethnic tensions don't create problems of their own but that takes nothing away from the fact that in many places, religion can be and is the primary driver of social problems. Pakistan is probably the first country that springs to mind in this case as it has its share of problems with both religious and ethnic roots but the most serious ones are now religious in nature, with ethnic nationalism in the country largely replaced by religious nationalism.

 

[JaDed]

There can be quicker advancement in science, conflict wise there would be issues , religious wise none, would also.make the humans have more faith in oneself.

 

[Pakistanian]

I disagree. Most internal issues within a country often stem from ethnicity.

Probably you'd need all atheists, a homogoneous society in racial terms as well as socioeconomic equality for your utopian society

China, Japan, and Korea are like that.

 

[BlackShadow]

It will mean one less reason to fight for, good for all. Countries like India, Pakistan and Bangladesh will see the most benefit.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

I think the world would lose something from art, and you might get buildings which look efficient but sterile. Can't imagine a Taj Mahal, or St Petersburg Basilica in Rome in an atheist culture. But you would lose some small level murders based on religious intolerance which happen in the third world especially. But there would still be plenty of murders to replace them based on survival of the fittest Darwin theory.

 

[shokz1408]

Would the world be more peaceful if we were all atheists? Hey, we all believe in no divine force now so just one big happy family?? I think countries will still fight over land and the earth's resources.

Probably less conflict, however there would probably be reduced conflict too if there was only one religion in the world, 1 god, and everyone had the same idea about it.

 

[PetroDollars]

ofcourse there will be anarchy and wars like there was in the begining of time.

I just finsihed reading Sapiens by Yuval Noah Harari and he gives a good perspective of it.

He calls religion an 'Imagintive Order' that brought people togeher to work togeher under one umbrella - before all sapiens were tearing each others heads apart till one genius came up with the idea there is a god in the sky and it brought peace and built a community

Today there are imagintive orders everwhere - religon, companies, organisations, social systems, countries, economic/social systems etc. that bring people togeher.

 

[Donal Cozzie]

We'd still be killing each other en masse but at least we'd be doing it for different reasons.

 

[good guy]

if we all become atheists still the fundamental problems would be not stopping like

climate change/overpopulation/degradation of natural resources

 

[Zahid87]

Well there would be one less tool to be manipulated by. But I am sure something else will be propped up in order to keep 'order' as it were.

 

[big_gamer007]

Will find some other reasons to fight over..

 

[troodon]

If we are all theists, we would still find a reason to fight.

The difference of opinion, belief and culture, race will always be there.

Even if 2 people are of the same race, culture, belief system, they will still fight over a girl or property or jealousy.

 

[DeadBall]

What do you mean by Atheists. We are not a group like religious people who have defined set of beliefs and even then they tend to argue and fight over the details. Muslims (Sunni, Shias and countless other sects), Christianity (Catholic, Protestants, Orthodox and 35000 plus more sects.), etc. We do not congregate on a weekly basis to discuss rules and conditions of membership. We actually have lower group membership levels than the Society Who Think Twilight Sucks.

Atheism is just a lack of belief in a God/Gods or system of belief. There isn't even a way of one atheist identifying another as we have no rituals or mass congregations on Fridays/Sundays etc.

I am sick and tired of us being lumped into a group. We just believe that there is NO (given the evidence or lack of) proof that a God or Gods exists. We are just a random group of people who have realized otherwise.

 

[cricketworm]

I don't want everyone to be an atheists. I want everyone to be more flexible with their own religion and be more accepting with others. Want everyone to be more open minded and not get stubborn with what's being said thousands of years ago.

Everyone should respect the growth of human culture and make a tweak a bit so current generation don't get sucked into dreaded rigidness.

You can have faith but can't lose sanity/humanity over it.

 

[R3verse Swing]

If we were all Atheists, we'd still be waiting for the Printing Press.

 

[Mamoon]

Without religion, there would be no optimism in the world. Faith in God gives people hope.

When something goes wrong in life and when we are in a dire situation, we pray to God because we have faith that there is a superior being who can make things right.

If we believe that we are on our own, we will be in despair.

The family of a dying cancer patient prays till the last moment because they believe that God can cure him. Without faith in God, they will have nothing to turn to.

A child that loses a parent seeks solace in the fact that his mother or father is in a better place now.

If the child believes that there is no better place after death, and we all end up as nothing but ashes or a scary looking skeleton buried under the ground, how will that child feel?

A lot of people try to do good to others because they want to be rewarded by God. Do you need to be religious to be a generous and a giving person? Certainly not, a lot of atheists are more charitable than religious people, but yet, a lot of religious people try to do good to others because of the incentive of being rewarded by the Almighty.

Religion is a very powerful tool, and anything very powerful can be both good and bad. It has certainly caused conflict and violence throughout the course of history, but it has also been beneficial to the human race. It is the single biggest reason for hope and optimism in the world.

 

[Madplayer]

I don't want everyone to be an atheists. I want everyone to be more flexible with their own religion and be more accepting with others. Want everyone to be more open minded and not get stubborn with what's being said thousands of years ago.

Everyone should respect the growth of human culture and make a tweak a bit so current generation don't get sucked into dreaded rigidness.

You can have faith but can't lose sanity/humanity over it.

Well said.

 

[Robert]

If we were all Atheists, we'd still be waiting for the Printing Press.

Come again?

 

[DeadBall]

Without religion, there would be no optimism in the world. Faith in God gives people hope.

When something goes wrong in life and when we are in a dire situation, we pray to God because we have faith that there is a superior being who can make things right.

If we believe that we are on our own, we will be in despair.

The family of a dying cancer patient prays till the last moment because they believe that God can cure him. Without faith in God, they will have nothing to turn to.

A child that loses a parent seeks solace in the fact that his mother or father is in a better place now.

If the child believes that there is no better place after death, and we all end up as nothing but ashes or a scary looking skeleton buried under the ground, how will that child feel?

A lot of people try to do good to others because they want to be rewarded by God. Do you need to be religious to be a generous and a giving person? Certainly not, a lot of atheists are more charitable than religious people, but yet, a lot of religious people try to do good to others because of the incentive of being rewarded by the Almighty.

Religion is a very powerful tool, and anything very powerful can be both good and bad. It has certainly caused conflict and violence throughout the course of history, but it has also been beneficial to the human race. It is the single biggest reason for hope and optimism in the world.

As much as I am against organized religion, and even if it goes against all common sense, it is a very true post.

 

[R3verse Swing]

Come again?

The propagation of the Bible gave birth to the printing press.

Johann Gutenberg invented the movable-type printing press and produced what is considered to be the first book ever printed: a Latin language Bible.

 

[CricketCartoons]

The propagation of the Bible gave birth to the printing press.

Johann Gutenberg invented the movable-type printing press and produced what is considered to be the first book ever printed: a Latin language Bible.

And only he could have invented it? What rubbish logic. Many discoveries/inventions would eventually happen, sooner or later.

 

[R3verse Swing]

Typical ignorance and insecurity.

Religious inspiration is the point.

 

[CricketCartoons]

Typical ignorance and insecurity.

Religious inspiration is the point.

Yes, without the hindus, there would be no decimal system today.

 

[R3verse Swing]

Decimal point was a discovery, not an invention.

Deary deary me.

 

[CricketCartoons]

Decimal point was a discovery, not an invention.

Deary deary me.

binary and hexadecimal were discoveries, not inventions?

Without religion there would be no printing press?

 

[R3verse Swing]

Well I suppose if there was no religion there'd be no struggle in identifying oneself.

Cough cough.

 

[CricketCartoons]

Well I suppose if there was no religion there'd be no struggle in identifying oneself.

Cough cough.

Tell me your next unintentional joke. I am done laughing at " no printing press without religion"

 

[Bosanquet]

Without religion, there would be no optimism in the world. Faith in God gives people hope.

When something goes wrong in life and when we are in a dire situation, we pray to God because we have faith that there is a superior being who can make things right.

If we believe that we are on our own, we will be in despair.

The family of a dying cancer patient prays till the last moment because they believe that God can cure him. Without faith in God, they will have nothing to turn to.

A child that loses a parent seeks solace in the fact that his mother or father is in a better place now.

If the child believes that there is no better place after death, and we all end up as nothing but ashes or a scary looking skeleton buried under the ground, how will that child feel?

A lot of people try to do good to others because they want to be rewarded by God. Do you need to be religious to be a generous and a giving person? Certainly not, a lot of atheists are more charitable than religious people, but yet, a lot of religious people try to do good to others because of the incentive of being rewarded by the Almighty.

Religion is a very powerful tool, and anything very powerful can be both good and bad. It has certainly caused conflict and violence throughout the course of history, but it has also been beneficial to the human race. It is the single biggest reason for hope and optimism in the world.

I've been a "Lurker" on PP for ages - even after I registered last year. But this thread is vastly intrigueing for the variety of opinions. Had to put in my 2 cents worth. I have read a lot of Mamoons stuff on the cricket forum - usually balanced & rational, though perhaps unduly pessimistic re Pak cricket. However, really cannot agree with this one.
I believe it is totally wrong to offer "solace" to anybody: child, parent, old or young based on something that is entirely suppositional, irrational & unreal. Most atheists appreciate that we have just this one life to do with what we will. There will be no "hereafter" to make up for our shortcomings in this life & no "reward" for virtue or indeed "punishment" for "sin".
However "Religion is a very powerful tool" Spot on mate!
Remember what Seneca said 2000 years ago - I quote - Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful.
And those rulers have been using it for the whole of human history.

 

[Bosanquet]

Yes, without the hindus, there would be no decimal system today.

I doubt that their religion had any great influence on their use of zero as a number & decimals.

 

[Bosanquet]

Gutenberg indeed invented the moving type press & printed the bible.
But the first BOOKS were printed in China 700 years before Gutenberg.

 

[TM Riddle]

I doubt that their religion had any great influence on their use of zero as a number & decimals.

Astronomy is integral to Indic beliefs and it played a part.

 

[Robert]

The propagation of the Bible gave birth to the printing press.

Other way round, surely?

 

[DeadBall]

Other way round, surely?

Let him be, in his mind, women forced their men to be able to be dressed this way.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

I've been a "Lurker" on PP for ages - even after I registered last year. But this thread is vastly intrigueing for the variety of opinions. Had to put in my 2 cents worth. I have read a lot of Mamoons stuff on the cricket forum - usually balanced & rational, though perhaps unduly pessimistic re Pak cricket. However, really cannot agree with this one.
I believe it is totally wrong to offer "solace" to anybody: child, parent, old or young based on something that is entirely suppositional, irrational & unreal. Most atheists appreciate that we have just this one life to do with what we will. There will be no "hereafter" to make up for our shortcomings in this life & no "reward" for virtue or indeed "punishment" for "sin".
However "Religion is a very powerful tool" Spot on mate!
Remember what Seneca said 2000 years ago - I quote - Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful.
And those rulers have been using it for the whole of human history.

They still are, and with good reason, it works. The most successful countries to now still use it. The leading western countries are probably considered more successful than the leading atheist countries at this point in time at least. But they operate a strictly secular constitution obviously.

 

[le_petit_prince]

It all comes down to this one question.Which one do you prefer? The sweet sugar coated lie or the harsh truth?

 

[barah_admi]

It is atheism and a lack of religion which is destroying society. If everyone actually followed Islam, almost all our problems would be eradicated.

 

[sweep_shot]

Would the world be more peaceful if we were all atheists? Hey, we all believe in no divine force now so just one big happy family?? I think countries will still fight over land and the earth's resources.

If I were not a Muslim, I would still believe in God. Atheism is quite idiotic to me. This universe is way too systematic for it to happen by chance.

Having said that, I don't think world would've been peaceful if all were atheists. Humans would've still fought with each other probably.

 

[shaykh]

Human beings have always found a way to oppose each other irregardless of faith...nationalism, ethnicity, tribalism, access to resources to name just a few...religion is just one of many dividers...

 

[PakLFC]

If I were not a Muslim, I would still believe in God. Atheism is quite idiotic to me. This universe is way too systematic for it to happen by chance.

Having said that, I don't think world would've been peaceful if all were atheists. Humans would've still fought with each other probably.

There is no need to bring any belief system or religion in to everything. An English player would never say "we are all Christians" after a hard match versus New Zealand. The proof is in the pudding here that can be seen in how Afghan Muslim's love Hindu India not Muslim Pakistan, where is Imad's Muslim brotherhood there?. This being the case Imad's Muslim rant is nonsensical.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

There is no need to bring any belief system or religion in to everything. An English player would never say "we are all Christians" after a hard match versus New Zealand. The proof is in the pudding here that can be seen in how Afghan Muslim's love Hindu India not Muslim Pakistan, where is Imad's Muslim brotherhood there?. This being the case Imad's Muslim rant is nonsensical.

Don't know why you are now trolling in this thread after being spanked in the other one. Afghan's are quite free to love Hindu India, there is no law against it. Imad didn't rant at anyone, he called for peace based on Muslim brotherhood. In the absence of any other ties it was probably a good call.

 

[Robert]

If I were not a Muslim, I would still believe in God. Atheism is quite idiotic to me. This universe is way too systematic for it to happen by chance.

But physics provides a very simple alternate explanation. Stellar evolution, planetary evolution, biological evolution - all inevitable due to physics.

Doesn’t mean there is no God, but there doesn’t need to be for things to be as they are.

 

[PakLFC]

Don't know why you are now trolling in this thread after being spanked in the other one. Afghan's are quite free to love Hindu India, there is no law against it. Imad didn't rant at anyone, he called for peace based on Muslim brotherhood. In the absence of any other ties it was probably a good call.

Where have I been spanked? Stop talking rubbish here like always! You can't have brotherhood with a people who hate you and were fighting with us outside the stadium! Peace with Turks I can understand as we are on good terms with them. What Imad is saying is highly illogical, this is not a rumour but a fact. You will be reminded of your Afghan brotherhood next time you meet one.

 

[PakLFC]

You can't have any brotherhood with a people who hate you! Muslim, Christian, Hindu, Sikh or whatever it doesn't work that way! It is simple plain logic for anyone with half a brain. Pity that people like [MENTION=48620]Cpt. Rishwat[/MENTION] lack complete common sense or perhaps he is a complete angel who loves a people who hate Pakistanis. May be you are not a Pak. Not trolling just talking plain logic here so you won't understand.

 

[sweep_shot]

But physics provides a very simple alternate explanation. Stellar evolution, planetary evolution, biological evolution - all inevitable due to physics.

Doesn’t mean there is no God, but there doesn’t need to be for things to be as they are.

I see your viewpoint but I don't fully agree with this. I find intelligent design in everything. Take a look at human body. It is amazingly complex and there are clear patterns; you can't convince me that human body came to be like this by chance.

 

[AdamM97]

Humans are tribal and look at the world through 'us and them'. In-groups and out-groups are how humans survive and find comfort. Even without religion, we would find reasons to fight each other. You can't get rid of in-groups and out-groups as long as humans live.

We are biased and have more affinity to our in-group whilst we dehumanize out-groups and see them as a threat.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

You can't have any brotherhood with a people who hate you! Muslim, Christian, Hindu, Sikh or whatever it doesn't work that way! It is simple plain logic for anyone with half a brain. Pity that people like [MENTION=48620]Cpt. Rishwat[/MENTION] lack complete common sense or perhaps he is a complete angel who loves a people who hate Pakistanis. May be you are not a Pak. Not trolling just talking plain logic here so you won't understand.

You are assuming all people of a nation are the same, this is the same ignorance as those Afghans display who assume Pakistanis are daal khors. You will get bigots or morons in any group of people, does that mean calling for peaceful relations on a common tie is a waste of time?

In any case this isn't the thread to discuss Imad's 'rant' as you tellingly described it, I would suggest you slink off back to the appropriate one that was opened in the cricket forum instead of trying to deflect this one from it's intended purpose.

 

[PakLFC]

You are assuming all people of a nation are the same, this is the same ignorance as those Afghans display who assume Pakistanis are daal khors. You will get bigots or morons in any group of people, does that mean calling for peaceful relations on a common tie is a waste of time?

In any case this isn't the thread to discuss Imad's 'rant' as you tellingly described it, I would suggest you slink off back to the appropriate one that was opened in the cricket forum instead of trying to deflect this one from it's intended purpose.

Keep your suggestions to yourself, thanks. The majority of Afghans are terrible people in every way. They can never be loyal to anyone at all not even the hands that feed them. They are ignorant and uncivil which is why I despise them. Yes indeed it is a waste of complete time and space calling for peace with a country who has always sided by India over Pak on everything even before the Russian invasion. Anymore sucking up to them will give you a black eye so be careful!

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Keep your suggestions to yourself, thanks. The majority of Afghans are terrible people in every way. They can never be loyal to anyone at all not even the hands that feed them. They are ignorant and uncivil which is why I despise them. Yes indeed it is a waste of complete time and space calling for peace with a country who has always sided by India over Pak on everything even before the Russian invasion. Anymore sucking up to them will give you a black eye so be careful!

My friend not everyone's experience reflects your own. If you got a black eye sucking up to them that's too bad, but if I was an Afghan I would probably do the same to be honest.

 

[warcry]

atheism means replacing a spiritual god with a more material god.
in other words. the world and its comforts are everything, nothing else matters.

 

[Robert]

I see your viewpoint but I don't fully agree with this. I find intelligent design in everything. Take a look at human body. It is amazingly complex and there are clear patterns; you can't convince me that human body came to be like this by chance.

Well, it didn’t just appear from nowhere as it is now. It’s the result of 3.5 billion years of trial and error through natural selection.

You’re making an assumption - that a complex thing (us) had to be built be a more complex thing (God). But then you have to ask what more complex thing than God made God. And on forever.

 

[KB]

Without religion, there would be no optimism in the world. Faith in God gives people hope.

When something goes wrong in life and when we are in a dire situation, we pray to God because we have faith that there is a superior being who can make things right.

If we believe that we are on our own, we will be in despair.

The family of a dying cancer patient prays till the last moment because they believe that God can cure him. Without faith in God, they will have nothing to turn to.

A child that loses a parent seeks solace in the fact that his mother or father is in a better place now.

If the child believes that there is no better place after death, and we all end up as nothing but ashes or a scary looking skeleton buried under the ground, how will that child feel?

A lot of people try to do good to others because they want to be rewarded by God. Do you need to be religious to be a generous and a giving person? Certainly not, a lot of atheists are more charitable than religious people, but yet, a lot of religious people try to do good to others because of the incentive of being rewarded by the Almighty.

Religion is a very powerful tool, and anything very powerful can be both good and bad. It has certainly caused conflict and violence throughout the course of history, but it has also been beneficial to the human race. It is the single biggest reason for hope and optimism in the world.

I would frame it somewhat differently. I think among many humans there is a deep need for meaning, for transcendence. In the conditions of modernity, many in the West have certainly been content to ‘go with the flow’, to not worry so much about the collapsing of the ‘sacred canopy’ to use Peter Bergen’s striking phrase.

But for some, confronted by the reality of their personal mortality, a sense of meaninglessness, the prospect of emptiness, the angst of a void, it is deeply troubling. There is a need to think of their lives as part of a higher reality. In the West at least before the modern age, religion provided this sense of significance that extended beyond finite earthly life. In the modern age, many in the West have turned to alternative sources. Nationalism has been one symbolic resource. Here we may turn to Anthony Smith, the doyen of studies of nationalism. Smith sees national identity as providing 'cultural fulfilment, rootedness, security and fraternity' and satisfying a human 'craving for immortality'. Smith points to the 'transcendental dimension' of nationalism which 'raises the individual above the earthly round and out of immediate time’.

Terrorism or fascism can also be understood in similar terms as providing believers with a sense of meaning and purpose, an antidote to the threat of anomie.

On a very different level, the human need for transcendence can manifest itself in more individual ways. One fictional depiction in popular culture can be witnessed in the acclaimed TV series Breaking Bad. Confronted by death, the protagonist goes through a process of creating another ‘self’ that would provide symbolic immortality to his life. In the book, Political Paranoia, the authors look at psychology of political violence, but the following passage, could also be applied to Walter White:

“The individual whose world is falling apart is experiencing his own psychological apocalypse. From this state of ultimate powerlessness and meaninglessness, some create a world of meaning in their mind, a new world in which they have power and significance. Through this vision they have found personal redemption.”

 

[rockyboy2018]

I grew up as a very liberal person in a muslim household. However, certain things I experienced from God - I am 100% sure that God exists. And, he can be friends with anyone or shower his blessings. Sometimes I believe that poetry written by Allama Iqbal is very unreal and beyond the scope of an average Joe. I wonder if he actually spoke with God or God spoke with him. Whatever way it is.
Some of the unreal stuff I experienced from God he already had penned down in his poetry many decades ago.

 

[Tubs]

I agree that there would still be conflict over resources and land, but it would be objectively better. There would be no religious indoctrination holding back progress in education and science, children wouldn't be told that they will burn in hell for not believing in God (which is child abuse), there will be far more equality between the sexes, there will be no religious hated/conflict. Some of the points against atheism are just arguments from personal experience, or incredulity, so they are fallacious.

 

[sweep_shot]

Well, it didn’t just appear from nowhere as it is now. It’s the result of 3.5 billion years of trial and error through natural selection.

You’re making an assumption - that a complex thing (us) had to be built be a more complex thing (God). But then you have to ask what more complex thing than God made God. And on forever.

What happened before that period? Who or what caused Big Bang? Big Bang needed an external force for it to happen. If there was nothing, where did that force come from?

 

[sweep_shot]

I agree that there would still be conflict over resources and land, but it would be objectively better. There would be no religious indoctrination holding back progress in education and science, children wouldn't be told that they will burn in hell for not believing in God (which is child abuse), there will be far more equality between the sexes, there will be no religious hated/conflict. Some of the points against atheism are just arguments from personal experience, or incredulity, so they are fallacious.

Many "educated" people are religious. Religion didn't stop their "progress" in education and science. Progress is a subjective thing; what is progressive to one person may seem like degeneracy to another person. For instance, I am strongly pro-life and I see abortion as murder. Another person may see abortion as progress.

 

[PakLFC]

I am with those folk who say that religion is not the problem here. Had we all shared a common belief we'd start fighting over taller and prettier people deserve all the earth's resources. Then we'd be crying about why did the creator not tell us who owns what!

 

[Tubs]

Many "educated" people are religious. Religion didn't stop their "progress" in education and science. Progress is a subjective thing; what is progressive to one person may seem like degeneracy to another person. For instance, I am strongly pro-life and I see abortion as murder. Another person may see abortion as progress.

I agree, I never said that educated theists are any less intelligent than educated atheists. In general, many educated theists reconcile their faith with science (i.e evolution).

However, it is the ignorant religious folk which are the problem. They believe that their religion is the only way to describe and explain the world. This certainly becomes problematic when all Abrahamic religions say that Adam was created from dust/clay/earth, as it completely goes against the fact of biological evolution.

 

[Robert]

What happened before that period? Who or what caused Big Bang? Big Bang needed an external force for it to happen. If there was nothing, where did that force come from?

This is a but difficult to comprehend but has been proven mathematically by Hawking and Penrose.

There was no time before the Bang.

So there was nothing to set it off.

All of matter, energy, dimensions and time were occupying a single point which could do just one thing which was explode.

 

[troodon]

I want everyone to have critical thinking and not be a blind follower of anything.

 

[sweep_shot]

This is a but difficult to comprehend but has been proven mathematically by Hawking and Penrose.

There was no time before the Bang.

So there was nothing to set it off.

All of matter, energy, dimensions and time were occupying a single point which could do just one thing which was explode.

If there was no activity within that single point, why did it explode? It doesn't make sense. There had to be external force.

If you keep something in one state, it will remain in that state unless there is an external force applied on it (Newton's first law).

 

[KingKhanWC]

Morality wouldn't exist.

 

[Madplayer]

But physics provides a very simple alternate explanation. Stellar evolution, planetary evolution, biological evolution - all inevitable due to physics.

Doesn’t mean there is no God, but there doesn’t need to be for things to be as they are.

Physics has not answered the question whether something can come out of nothing. Come back when you can prove that

0 + 0 = 1

 

[Madplayer]

Morality wouldn't exist.

Some atheists think that they are better human beings but they ignore the fact that morality actually came from religion. Without religion, humans would be eating each other.

 

[anikrc1]

Some atheists think that they are better human beings but they ignore the fact that morality actually came from religion. Without religion, humans would be eating each other.

What if cannibalism is a part of religion? I think you have hard of thuggies. Human sacrifice was a part of their religion.

 

[Robert]

If there was no activity within that single point, why did it explode? It doesn't make sense. There had to be external force.

If you keep something in one state, it will remain in that state unless there is an external force applied on it (Newton's first law).

Newton’s Laws don’t apply in this case. There was no external force because there was no place or time for an external force to occupy. And there was no why because there was no causality.

I know it’s hard to conceptualise. But Hawking’s and Penrose’s mathematical proof is backed up by two pieces of hard evidence.

 

[Madplayer]

What if cannibalism is a part of religion? I think you have hard of thuggies. Human sacrifice was a part of their religion.

Maybe some tribal religions. But thats why every religion isnt a true one. I know this statement opens up a massive debate on which religion is true but thats a discussion for another day.

 

[Robert]

Physics has not answered the question whether something can come out of nothing. Come back when you can prove that

0 + 0 = 1

That’s the wrong question. It couldn’t come out of nothing because time didn’t exist for it to come out of. No maths apply at that point, nothing we can describe does.

Ask yourself the same question. If the universe came out of God, what did God come out of?

 

[Robert]

Some atheists think that they are better human beings but they ignore the fact that morality actually came from religion. Without religion, humans would be eating each other.

But where did religion come from?

 

[Musakhel]

Morality wouldn't exist.

That is not how Athiest see it, they say society or general principles like the "Harm principle" decides what we consider moral or Immoral, obviously As muslims we Say that Only God can decide what Is Morality.

 

[Madplayer]

That’s the wrong question. It couldn’t come out of nothing because time didn’t exist for it to come out of. No maths apply at that point, nothing we can describe does.

Okay in short the question is what existed prior to all this mumbo jumbo? Now you would say there is no "prior" because there was no time as a reference point. And you have admitted there is no maths that you can apply at that "point". Look at the terminology that you are using. For it to be a "point" you again need time. Hence you fall into the same trap which you were trying to taking us out of. Basically the crux of it is that it is beyond our comprehension to understand or explain it on the basis of science and hence as a cop out we say things which we dont understand ourselves like there was no time (which i agree with, there was no time). So what was there then? You cant answer it at all except through God.

Ask yourself the same question. If the universe came out of God, what did God come out of?

Now this is the wrong question because as per Islamic beliefs God is absolute and uncreated.

Surah Ikhlas of the Quran says :

"Say: He is God, the One and the Only God, the Eternal, the Absolute. He begets not. Nor is He begotten. And there is none like Him."

He created things like time so He is beyond them. When you take this as a fact, everything else falls into place. However, because we are too sure of our puny selves, we simply dont want to accept it and try to find an alternate explanation of it which we will never be able to find because there isnt any to begin with. Neither do we want to accept the limitations of human faculties when it comes to understanding the infinitely big creation.

 

[Madplayer]

But where did religion come from?

Religion was sent by God, corrupted and imitated by Man, and then perfected by God again. This is the perspective of a believer.

 

[pillionrider]

We'd find something else to fight about.