If you believe in God do you believe that nations will be punished for their sins, past and present?

[Gabbar Singh]

As per the title do you think that divine justice or retribution applies to nation states/unions/empires?

Will nations that committed, for example, colonial crimes ~100+ years ago be punished today or in years to come? Will nations that abuse human rights today be punished today or in years to come?

Does God punish whole nations as well as individuals?

 

[PakLFC]

Yes! The guilty must be punished. Thing is in the case of collective punishment the innocent suffer as well.

 

[DeadBall]

Yes! The guilty must be punished. Thing is in the case of collective punishment the innocent suffer as well.

So God is OK with making the innocent suffer just so that he can punish the guilty?

 

[Pakpak]

So God is OK with making the innocent suffer just so that he can punish the guilty?

The irony of PakLFC is that he is a guy who lives in a non-Muslim country yet calling them guilty and that they need to be punished.

 

[PakLFC]

So God is OK with making the innocent suffer just so that he can punish the guilty?

Yes! That's just the way it goes it seems. Could be that they are guilty to Allah. We don't know.

 

[PakLFC]

The irony of PakLFC is that he is a guy who lives in a non-Muslim country yet calling them guilty and that they need to be punished.

All religions call for justice. It has nothing to do with justice. Strange thing is that you think only Islam calls for the guilty to be punished

 

[DeadBall]

All religions call for justice. It has nothing to do with justice. Strange thing is that you think only Islam calls for the guilty to be punished

Every religion calls for the guilty to be punished, definition of guilty differs from one to the other though i,e if they don't believe what you, eat/drink something you don't etc then you are guilty. The basic things like murder, adultery etc are covered by all though. Just because all religions are wrong does not make Islam right.

 

[Sirris]

From my understanding according to the Islamic belief, God does not necessarily have to punish the evil-doers nor the disbelievers in this world. On the contrary God can even allow them to roam free and cause mischieve on earth, while at the same time this serves as a mean to test the patience of his beloved servants. Therefore the evil-doers might escape his punishment in this world, though in the hereafter they are guaranteed to taste the severe punishment of God while the loyal servants are guaranteed great reward for their patience. However God might forgive whoever he wishes too, except for the polytheists of course. For believing in another spiritual power besides the one God is the greatest sin one could ever commit.

Besides, the colonialists you are referring to have long died and the Islamic God isn't the one who would punish the current generations because of the wrong doings of those who lived a few hundred years ago. Each person is held accountable only for his own actions independent of the actions of his forefather.

Reading the scriptures you would think that in the past God used to punish nations and people who did evil rather frequently, while for some odd reasons in the "modern era" the evil-doers have been guaranteed a lot more free space and free time. Additionally the disbelievers seem to have learned how to better predict and protect themselves from God's punishment or "natural disasters" as they call it.

Though in the current century so far amongst others God did punish the following:

The people of Indonesia in the tsunamis of 2004.

The people of Pakistan in earthquakes of 2005.

The people of Myanmar in 2008.

The people of Haiti in 2010.

Not to forget that "natural disasters" such as earthquakes and tsunamis aren't the only means with which the Islamic God might punish those who warrant punishment. Rather he can also punish a nation by having it attacked by another nation. So you could regard the war in Afghanistan, the war in Iraq and the catastrophic Civil War in Syria as God punishing whomever he wishes too.

 

[PakLFC]

Every religion calls for the guilty to be punished, definition of guilty differs from one to the other though i,e if they don't believe what you, eat/drink something you don't etc then you are guilty. The basic things like murder, adultery etc are covered by all though. Just because all religions are wrong does not make Islam right.

Now you are surely taking the mick! For me Islam is right but if you don't believe in it then I am not getting hot under my collar! Consuming pork or so forth is not considered a crime by most people. You know full well that I am talking of crimes like murder and rape that are considered punishable by most human beings. Rejecting any religion is not a crime at all, only nutcases will say that it is.

 

[DeadBall]

Now you are surely taking the mick! For me Islam is right but if you don't believe in it then I am not getting hot under my collar! Consuming pork or so forth is not considered a crime by most people. You know full well that I am talking of crimes like murder and rape that are considered punishable by most human beings. Rejecting any religion is not a crime at all, only nutcases will say that it is.

Yes but shirk (not believing in the one true God, or associating others with him) is the biggest sin, that even bigger than murder, adultery etc, so don't know what you're getting at.

 

[PakLFC]

Yes but shirk (not believing in the one true God, or associating others with him) is the biggest sin, that even bigger than murder, adultery etc, so don't know what you're getting at.

That does not call for being killed. If there is punishment for such things then Allah will be handing it out.

 

[DeadBall]

That does not call for being killed. If there is punishment for such things then Allah will be handing it out.

And he has, abundantly.

 

[PakLFC]

And he has, abundantly.

Allah has killed people for not believing in him?? What!! I think you mean that people kill in his name!

 

[DeadBall]

Allah has killed people for not believing in him?? What!! I think you mean that people kill in his name!

There are many instances of divine retribution, Musa, Nooh, Loot etc but this one takes the cake in my opinion

This is what the poor people of Thamud had to go through, from Surah Al A'raaf

And to (the tribe of) Thamud (We sent) their brother Salih. He said: O my people! Serve Allah. Ye have no other God save Him. A wonder from your Lord hath come unto you. Lo! this is the camel of Allah, a token unto you; so let her feed in Allah's earth, and touch her not with hurt lest painful torment seize you.

Then they hamstrung the she-camel, defied the commandment of their Rabb and challenged Saleh saying: "Bring down the scourge you have threatened us with, if you truly are one of the Rasools."

So the earthquake seized them, and morning found them prostrate in their dwelling place.


So basically a whole tribe wiped out because they didn't believe in a magic camel.

....

 

[R3verse Swing]

Pompeii says hi.

 

[PakLFC]

[MENTION=146530]DeadBall[/MENTION]

Divine retribution does exist You are now going in Biblical or Islamic history that is a different subject. I am talking of today's time, punishing today's guilty. I don't think the red sea will be parting anytime soon, such miracles died with the great Prophets.

 

[DeadBall]

[MENTION=146530]DeadBall[/MENTION]

Divine retribution does exist You are now going in Biblical or Islamic history that is a different subject. I am talking of today's time, punishing today's guilty. I don't think the red sea will be parting anytime soon, such miracles died with the great Prophets.

Agree. Would be weird seeing the Jews live fbing the Red sea parting, Jesus tweeting a clip of himself turning water into wine, Noah having a video blog of what two of every animal in this world on his ship are doing, etc in this day and age, tbh.

 

[JaDed]

How cruel the GOD must be to make babies/people/animals suffer ,if its the faulty of Humans,then basically Humans are more powerful than God.

 

[JaDed]

On the topic all nations/civilizations do come to an end due to various reasons GOD doesn't punish them, they make mistakes.

Two civilizations which have done amazing for centuries and bounced back are Chinese and Japanese/ if GOD was punishing them they made sure to destroy GOD's scriptures and what not and come back on TOP!

 

[James]

Individuals. It is the only fair way to do it.

I disagree with the Catholic philosophy of us all being morally broken from infancy after being born into the collective human sin of Adam & Eve (“The Fall”), so we essentially have to work backwards to prove ourselves. Seems very negative to me. There is an extended chapter in “Portrait of the Artist as a Young Man” by James Joyce which outlines how emotionally abusive and mentally damaging this approach can be to children from devout Catholic families, who have violent biblical images and foul apocalyptic language drilled into them from school-attending age by their priests.

Start pure, you will then sin of course, but always you should be moving forward, and be positive whilst trying to live well. That’s surely the only divine justice that there is.

 

[PakLFC]

How cruel the GOD must be to make babies/people/animals suffer ,if its the faulty of Humans,then basically Humans are more powerful than God.

People make each other suffer far more then any creator does. If humans were so powerful they wouldn't be vulnerable to all forms of illness for starters.

 

[JaDed]

People make each other suffer far more then any creator does. If humans were so powerful they wouldn't be vulnerable to all forms of illness for starters.

Yeah but he is able to make other living beings suffer and God unable to stop that.

 

[barah_admi]

As per the title do you think that divine justice or retribution applies to nation states/unions/empires?

Will nations that committed, for example, colonial crimes ~100+ years ago be punished today or in years to come? Will nations that abuse human rights today be punished today or in years to come?

Does God punish whole nations as well as individuals?

As a Muslim, we believe (as stated in the Quran and the Hadiths) that many nations, entire kingdoms and empires were punished in the past for their transgressions against God and against humanity. However, in the age post Prophet Muhammah PBUH, there will never be a complete annihilation of any one people, culture, society, kingdom, empire etc. That is one of the blessings given by Allah to humanity because of our prophet. HOWEVER, that is not to say there will not be punishment in the hereafter, i.e. hell, or that there will not be individual punishments and smaller punishments which affect a smaller group.

That's it really, not much more to it.

 

[PakLFC]

Yeah but he is able to make other living beings suffer and God unable to stop that.

You want God to come from the heavens and intervene in people or other forms of life from fighting?. Then you will argue why did God not give people a brain to stop fighting themselves!! Other living things don't fight half as much as people do. No matter what atheists will attack God no matter what, the divine one just can't please you no matter what he does!

 

[JaDed]

You want God to come from the heavens and intervene in people or other forms of life from fighting?. Then you will argue why did God not give people a brain to stop fighting themselves!! Other living things don't fight half as much as people do. No matter what atheists will attack God no matter what, the divine one just can't please you no matter what he does!

All the Divine has to do is protect babies from getting killed ,seems he/she is not able to do anything about that.
And if God can't come from "heavens" down to his own creation than lol.

 

[JaDed]

There has to be proof given as to existence of those punishments,if not its invalid and just tales being believed.
So we pretty much know its untrue, GOD has never punished a nation on the contrary the ones to be more cruel and destructive in nature w.r.t FORCE have ended up being glorified and their nations becoming stronger.

 

[Sirris]

A much more interesting follow on question would be whether religious people believe the "natural disasters" to be:

a) God's way of punishing those who he wishes to punish. Each and every one of such "natural disasters".

b) just natural occurrences part of Earth's geographical and climate structure with no higher meaning. When God punishes he would let the people know beforehand like he did in the past by sending his prophets.

c) a mix of both. Sometimes there is God's will behind it and sometimes it's just the way God made Earth.

Additionally what would be God's purpose behind these punishments? Does he want to remind those effected about his existence? If so how would the people ever find the one particular true version of God amongst the many and how would they ever learn to live their life the way God wants them to and make sure they don't anger God and are punished again.

What about the case where people are worshipping a "false" God to begin with and the "true" God decides to punish them. How would the people ever find out the purpose behind the punishment? Perhaps the people see the punishment and think it's because they haven't been praying hard enough to their "false" God and end up believing and praying to him a lot more than before the punishment. Wouldn't that be counterintuitive.

Has there ever been a recorded case in recent history, where after being effected by a severe natural disaster a vast number of effected people later on converted to a specific religion because they understood the reason behind their misfortune?

Isn't a punishment would any directions on how to avoid it in the future or what warranted it to begin with a very bad idea and nothing less than tyranny? Especially nowadays where humanity is pretty much on its own and no new "Prophet" will come to guide it and explain the meaning behind God's will.

What about actively rewarding "good" nations who believe in the "true" God?

 

[DeadBall]

The title of thread is...."If you believe in God....." [MENTION=146530]DeadBall[/MENTION]

Please do not derail the thread with your anti religion nonsense as this is an interesting discussion.

Yes God does punish nations, we have been told many times. The people of Noah is one of the best examples

The example I posted is from the same Book from which you posted. I did not derail the thread it is about God punishing nations which is exactly I posted just like your Noah story. If you don't like it go cry somewhere else.

 

[PakLFC]

All the Divine has to do is protect babies from getting killed ,seems he/she is not able to do anything about that.
And if God can't come from "heavens" down to his own creation than lol.

If he comes down to sort problems then it compromises his majesty and goes against his divine nature. People should be protecting kids. Humans create the mess and God should clean it up. Don't think so.