In an all-time ODI XI, at least three and as many as five players would be Indians

[ads101]

I agree think Tendulkar, Kohli, Dhoni all definitely make it in. I'd actually opt for Dhawan over Rohit, I think Dhawan's more clutch especially in tournaments.

Kapil, I think it's between him and Kallis. Kallis is the best batting allrounder, and I think Kapil's the best bowling allrounder. Depends which fit the team more. Probably because the batting is so strong I'd lean to Kapil. Difficult here, you could also argue to play a specialist bowler because batting will be strong enough.

India has been very competitive this era good on them, they've been second to Aussies in the 2000s when Australia was still strong, and then since past late 00s, or past 2010 they've been the strongest side as a whole.

I do admit in some ways it is rather strange that Australia despite literally dominating for not years but multiple decades wouldn't get less individual players in an ATG. But in some ways it makes sense, Australia had no weaknesses which is why they were so great. For a long time India got through mainly on batting, so they needed their batsmen to put in performances like what Tendulkar did to win those games against the strong sides.

 

[Hitman]

The only certainties from India are Sachin and Kohli, and the only certainty from Pakistan is Wasim Akram.

@ a certified chucker finding a place in an All Time XI.

 

[Hitman]

Sachin
Gilly (wk)
Viv (c)
Ponting
Kohli
Bevan
Klusener
Warne
Garner
Akram
McGrath

 

[AuxiliA]

TENDULKAR is locked for the opening slot.

KOHLI is a very strong contender for the middle order slot for his prolific run scoring in all conditions.

It's a toss up between DHONI and GILCHRIST for the WK spot depending upon the conditions(Asia/Non-Asia) and the batting order(Opener/Finisher).

KAPIL was an ODI legend, but there are better replacements for his spot.

As for ROHIT, I doubt he would find a spot as an opener in an Indian XI.

 

[anoop]

Like, I said, do you know what was the highest rating than Sachin achieved during his 20 year career? Are you willing to accept that Javed Miandad at his peak was a better ODI batsman than Sachin at his peak?

Or are you now willing to accept that the rankings are not an accurate indicator of quality?

There is a difference between peak rating and being consistently remaining ahead and no. 1.

 

[Bilal7]

The point is not what is the peak rating. That is dependent on a string of successive great innings.

The point is sustaining that ranking. 10 years is not a joke.

But anyway like I said, if you want to stick to your version, go ahead. But you can't convince me that Imran was better than Kapil in ODIs.

I'm not trying to convince you of anything. I am simply pointing out your hypocrisy and it is funny seeing you trying to come to terms with it.

So there were 15 batsmen who were better at their peak than Sachin Tendulker was. I wonder if it would be right to call Sachin a lock for the all-time XI after this revelation.

Like Dhoni was a better captain than Imran in ODIs, Kapil was a better all rounder than Imran in ODIs. Its proven universally by virtue of rankings and trophy accomplishments.

Imran was a better captain than Dhoni and better player than Kapil in ODIs. What trophies are you talking about?

 

[Bilal7]

There is a difference between peak rating and being consistently remaining ahead and no. 1.

Both use the same algorithms. There is no difference, just hypocrisy.

This should be a good puzzle, actually. The objective is to make up a bull explanation for why Kapil was the #1 ODI all-rounder based on the ICC ratings formula but peak-Sachin was not inferior to 14 other batsman at their respective peaks, based on the same formula.

 

[AMSS]

Who knows, 5 years from now Bumrah and Kuldeep might be a lock too.

 

[giri26]

India in terms of batting, Virat Kohli, Sachin Tendulkar and MS Dhoni easily make the World X1. In terms of wicket keepers, there is only Gilly who comes close to MS. Gilly was a good ODI player who did extremely well in knockout games but MS just brings something extra to the team. Kohli and Sachin for obvious reasons make the X1.

 

[AMSS]

On the matter of fast bowling AR, Kapil towers above Imran who was serviceable at best.

MSD's craptitude over the last 3 years has made me ambivalent towards him but he was a peerless finisher at his prime - a prime that lasted well over 200 matches. So he is a legitimate candidate and more deserving than Gilchrist.

 

[anoop]

Why not Andrew Flintoff as bowling All rounder ? Bowling AVG 24 , battling AVG 32.

 

[BreadPakoda]

As much as I dislike the current Dhoni his name should be the first on the list. Even before SRT’s. Greatest wicket keeper and greatest finisher ever. Mauled the best attacks at will. WC winning captain with an ATG knock in the finals. Greatest LOI captain ever.

 

[anoop]

My XI would be:

1) Sachin Tendulker
2) Hashim Amla
3) Ricky Ponting
4) Viv Richards
5) AB de Villiers
6) MS Dhoni (wk)
7) Imran Khan (c)
8) Saqlain Mushtaq
9) Wasim Akram
10) Joel Garner
11) Glenn McGrath

You take WC knockout performances as gold standard then why not Warne over Saqlain who has not one but 3 outstanding performances. WC semi-final 1996, WC semi 1999, WC final 1999.MOM for both semi & final in 1999.

 

[Bilal7]

You take WC knockout performances as gold standard then why not Warne over Saqlain who has not one but 3 outstanding performances. WC semi-final 1996, WC semi 1999, WC final 1999.MOM for both semi & final in 1999.

I never pick these teams on one criterion alone. Doing well at the World Cup helps but it is not everything. I prefer Saqlain because he was such a versatile bowler, able to bowl at the death and turn the ball both ways. He also dominated the Indians when they had one of the best batting lineups of all time. His stats being better than Warne's also helped.

 

[axis]

Absolutely no way. There are 10 other batsman who can replace Gilchrist at the top.

There is absolutely no one above Dhoni when it comes to batting at number 6.

It's not for nothing that he is the only batsmen ever to have scored 10k runs by mostly batting outside of the top 4.

He is a liability as a batsman.. his technique is patchy and he can't rotate the strike or score at pace..

His honeymoon period is over.. bowlers world over have figured him out .. a overhyped cricketer who doesn't deserve to be anywhere near ODI XI .. Depends too much on others to face quality bowling, always chickens out when it matters..

 

[axis]

Rohit and Kapil will definitely not be in contention of an all-time ODI XI. Rohit does not even make India's all-time XI.

Dhoni is 50-50, some pick him but others don't. Even Virat Kohli is not a given since many would prefer someone like Ricky Ponting, who has shined his brightest at the biggest stage while Kohli is a choker.

Pakistan, Windies and South Africa probably have as many representatives as India in an all-time ODI XI. Australia have far more.

Even Sachin was a choker at biggest stage..

 

[axis]

You're forgetting that Imran was a legendary captain as well, which makes him the best all-rounder to pick. He has also played a match-winning innings in a World Cup final, something that many of the batsmen being mentioned here have not been able to do.

Though I am a huge Imran fan, but your last point doesn't hold true.

1. Not many of the great batsmen even played the WC finals..
2. Not many who played, got a chance to play a great innings in the final.
3. WC final has no more importance than any other WC KO in terms of value of the match.. of course the stage of WC final is bigger than a WC SF/QF, but since all these are KOs, any innings in SF/QF also is equally valuable.
4. Immy wasn't MOM in the WC final.. it was a good innings but not mind blowing.

 

[Ab Fan]

Sharma won't even make it to India XI, let alone all-time ODI XI.

 

[anoop]

Sharma won't even make it to India XI, let alone all-time ODI XI.

Sharma would easily crush Ganguly or Sehwag going this way. For many he has done enough.

 

[Ab Fan]

Sharma would easily crush Ganguly or Sehwag going this way. For many he has done enough.

Ganguly averages 41 in an era when 44 was the highest.

Rohit averages 46 in the era when 55 is the highest.

Ganguly has got longevity as well.

 

[anoop]

Ganguly averages 41 in an era when 44 was the highest.

Rohit averages 46 in the era when 55 is the highest.

Ganguly has got longevity as well.

No Sharma averages 56 as opener. Sharma will always be taken as opener not on any position. He is a different case.

Also it doesn't matter what is highest in any era because it can be possible that it could be due to very special player playing in that era. For eg: If suddenly a player comes and start scoring at 70 rate per match that will not make Kohli lower than Ganguly.

 

[Hitman]

Ganguly was a much better ODI batsman than Rohit. Those who watched Dada's entire ODI career will understand that. At one time he had the 2nd highest number of ODI centuries after Sachin. And averaging 40 back then was incredibly difficult. Saeed Anwar and Inzamam were both good ODI batsmen back then and yet averaged just a shade below 40. Even Lara could barely manage an average of 40. And all them were good ODI batsmen.

Rohit has been good so far, and I have hopes from him to continue this way. But Ganguly was better in my opinion.

 

[anoop]

Ganguly averages 41 in an era when 44 was the highest.

Rohit averages 46 in the era when 55 is the highest.

Ganguly has got longevity as well.

Ganguly had peak of 5 years. Sharma too has done that. Unfortunately in Ganguly's peak 1997-2003 India played 230 matches but that amount of Odi aren't being played today. Today Sharma is also spending his time in T20 and IPL.

 

[Ab Fan]

Ganguly had peak of 5 years. Sharma too has done that. Unfortunately in Ganguly's peak 1997-2003 India played 230 matches but that amount of Odi aren't being played today. Today Sharma is also spending his time in T20 and IPL.

The thing is Rohit's number are just too pathetic before that year 2013, i.e. when he was brought into the team as opener.

He played years and years before that, albeit in middle order, but he was outrageously disappointing. Before 2013, India had Tendulkar, Sehwag and Gambhir at the top order but we aren't sure how good he would have been as an opening batsmen back then and would he have taken this long to establish himself in the ODI setup if he had started only as an opener.

 

[Ab Fan]

Dhawan was also not in the ODI XI before 2013 and he also had to wait for SRT and Sehwag to retire before he made his way to the team.

In a same way, years ago, Amla was also not in SA ODI XI before Gibbs called it off. If Amla had debuted with de Villiers in 2005 in SA team, his average also would have been lower although 7k ODI runs would have been around 9K ODI runs for Amla.

So,for Sharma, it comes down to whether you take overall career or peak period only.

 

[jeeteshssaxena]

How can any one pick gilly over dhoni.
Remove your tinted glasses and compare their record. Also name a better finisher than dhoni?
Before anyone says bevan, i"ll never have a bevan in my playing x1 in these days, he can't hit big like msd did.
Is there any case supporting imran over msd as captain. Msd has achieved everything an odi captain can. Msd is a lock as the captain of world x1.

Sachin
Abd(he"ll be my opener, )
Ponting
Kohli
Richards
Ms dhoni
Klusener (better than dev, imran)
Wasim
Lee(better than waqar)
McgrathGOAT
Murali

 

[austerlitz]

I never pick these teams on one criterion alone. Doing well at the World Cup helps but it is not everything. I prefer Saqlain because he was such a versatile bowler, able to bowl at the death and turn the ball both ways. He also dominated the Indians when they had one of the best batting lineups of all time. His stats being better than Warne's also helped.

How was the indian batting line up in 1999,one of the best batting line ups of all time?Literally one man army tendu.
Sadagopan ramesh
Vikram rathore/or some other generic opener
Raw Dravid
Tendu
Fixer azhar
Raw ganguly
Nayan mongia fixer

Truly one of the best batting line ups ever ,lol.

Sehwag ended saqlain's career.

 

[ishtiaq_ctg]

Sacin, Bevan, Viv, MSD, Wasim, Mcgrath and Garner are absolute locked imo. All WC winners, Performed amazingly at the biggest events.

 

[the_outsider]

I'm not trying to convince you of anything. I am simply pointing out your hypocrisy and it is funny seeing you trying to come to terms with it.

So there were 15 batsmen who were better at their peak than Sachin Tendulker was. I wonder if it would be right to call Sachin a lock for the all-time XI after this revelation.



Imran was a better captain than Dhoni and better player than Kapil in ODIs. What trophies are you talking about?

There is no hypocricy Billu. Only questionable opinion is yours. Every one knows about your massive bias and your hatred towards India.

Kapil is better than IK. Deal with it.

 

[the_outsider]

He is a liability as a batsman.. his technique is patchy and he can't rotate the strike or score at pace..

His honeymoon period is over.. bowlers world over have figured him out .. a overhyped cricketer who doesn't deserve to be anywhere near ODI XI .. Depends too much on others to face quality bowling, always chickens out when it matters..

People who've seen him bat only in the last 2 years would say that. In his prime, there was nobody like him.

I'll give you a stat. MSD has remained NO in 44 innings in ODI matches. Out of those 44 innings, India has won 42 times, tied once and lost once. That's a win percentage of 96% when MSD is at the crease.

The MSD we see today isn't 1/10th the batsman he was in 2010. He was an ODI giant. And apart from Gilchrist, is the only WK who deserves a place in an ATG XI.

 

[axis]

How was the indian batting line up in 1999,one of the best batting line ups of all time?Literally one man army tendu.
Sadagopan ramesh
Vikram rathore/or some other generic opener
Raw Dravid
Tendu
Fixer azhar
Raw ganguly
Nayan mongia fixer

Truly one of the best batting line ups ever ,lol.

Sehwag ended saqlain's career.

Say again ???

Here are Saqlain and Murali's comparative performances against India (90s and 2000s) and overall.

Saqlain :

Overall average : 21.78
Average against Indian batting line up (he only played India in 90s) : 24.38


Murali:

overall career average against ALL teams : 23.08
Average against lallu/fixers batting line up of 90s India : 46.06
Average against a strong and improved Indian batting of noughties : 25.62

It is clear that the same lallu/raw/fixer batting line up of the 90s hammered Murali and took twice as many runs per wicket than what he had to pay against all the other teams in his career.

 

[axis]

People who've seen him bat only in the last 2 years would say that. In his prime, there was nobody like him.

I'll give you a stat. MSD has remained NO in 44 innings in ODI matches. Out of those 44 innings, India has won 42 times, tied once and lost once. That's a win percentage of 96% when MSD is at the crease.

The MSD we see today isn't 1/10th the batsman he was in 2010. He was an ODI giant. And apart from Gilchrist, is the only WK who deserves a place in an ATG XI.

I think the following is the only good innings against the tough bowling attack and tough match situation he played.. I can't find a better innings than that..

http://www.espncricinfo.com/series/...kistan-1st-odi-pakistan-tour-of-india-2012-13

https://www.hotstar.com/sports/cricket/dhoni-fights-lone-battle-with-113/2001901370

 

[Shandarchowka]

When all time XIs are discussed, understand that we're speaking about years of history. Here's mine -

Sachin
Gilchrist (k)
Ponting
Richards
Inzamam
Bevan
Imran (c)
Wasim
Marshall
Murali
McGrath

Reserves - sangakkara, warne, waqar

 

[the_outsider]

I think the following is the only good innings against the tough bowling attack and tough match situation he played.. I can't find a better innings than that..

http://www.espncricinfo.com/series/...kistan-1st-odi-pakistan-tour-of-india-2012-13

https://www.hotstar.com/sports/cricket/dhoni-fights-lone-battle-with-113/2001901370

Your lack of ability in identifying quality is not justification for Dhoni's exclusion.

Dhoni is an ATG. He's first choice as an ATG WK. There is no debate.

 

[axis]

Your lack of ability in identifying quality is not justification for Dhoni's exclusion.

Dhoni is an ATG. He's first choice as an ATG WK. There is no debate.

I am not lacking any ability.. any kid can watch Dhoni play and confirm that he has no quality.

 

[the_outsider]

Say again ???

Here are Saqlain and Murali's comparative performances against India (90s and 2000s) and overall.

Saqlain :

Overall average : 21.78
Average against Indian batting line up (he only played India in 90s) : 24.38


Murali:

overall career average against ALL teams : 23.08
Average against lallu/fixers batting line up of 90s India : 46.06
Average against a strong and improved Indian batting of noughties : 25.62

It is clear that the same lallu/raw/fixer batting line up of the 90s hammered Murali and took twice as many runs per wicket than what he had to pay against all the other teams in his career.

Murali was the only world class bowler in his team for most of his career. Only Vaas gave him some company in the middle.

Saqlain came on to bowl after bowlers like Wasim, Waqar, Shoaib.

And most importantly, Saqlain could play at that level for only 8 years. Murali did it for 19 years. More than twice as long a career!

No prizes for guessing which spinner had more on their plate. There is no comparison!

 

[Bhaag Viru Bhaag]

How can any one pick gilly over dhoni.
Remove your tinted glasses and compare their record. Also name a better finisher than dhoni?
Before anyone says bevan, i"ll never have a bevan in my playing x1 in these days, he can't hit big like msd did.
Is there any case supporting imran over msd as captain. Msd has achieved everything an odi captain can. Msd is a lock as the captain of world x1.

Sachin
Abd(he"ll be my opener, )
Ponting
Kohli
Richards
Ms dhoni
Klusener (better than dev, imran)
Wasim
Lee(better than waqar)
McgrathGOAT
Murali

How can Klusener be above Kapil and Imran? Remove your tinted glasses and compare their records.

Look at your team first before questioning others please. ABD as an opener?

 

[the_outsider]

I am not lacking any ability.. any kid can watch Dhoni play and confirm that he has no quality.

Yes. Sure. I think you're still recovering from the shock of that 148 phainta Dhoni gave your boys.

 

[Bilal7]

Though I am a huge Imran fan, but your last point doesn't hold true.

1. Not many of the great batsmen even played the WC finals..
2. Not many who played, got a chance to play a great innings in the final.
3. WC final has no more importance than any other WC KO in terms of value of the match.. of course the stage of WC final is bigger than a WC SF/QF, but since all these are KOs, any innings in SF/QF also is equally valuable.
4. Immy wasn't MOM in the WC final.. it was a good innings but not mind blowing.

You don't have to be the MOTM to have a match-winning contribution in a match. Had Imran (and Miandad, of course) not scored those runs, the English would have cut right through our batting.

 

[Bilal7]

How was the indian batting line up in 1999,one of the best batting line ups of all time?Literally one man army tendu.
Sadagopan ramesh
Vikram rathore/or some other generic opener
Raw Dravid
Tendu
Fixer azhar
Raw ganguly
Nayan mongia fixer

Truly one of the best batting line ups ever ,lol.

Sehwag ended saqlain's career.

Injuries ended Saqlain's career.

 

[Rahul1]

Rohit and Kapil will definitely not be in contention of an all-time ODI XI. Rohit does not even make India's all-time XI.

Dhoni is 50-50, some pick him but others don't. Even Virat Kohli is not a given since many would prefer someone like Ricky Ponting, who has shined his brightest at the biggest stage while Kohli is a choker.

Pakistan, Windies and South Africa probably have as many representatives as India in an all-time ODI XI. Australia have far more.

Actually, I would make one change:

1) Sachin Tendulker
2) Hashim Amla
3) Ricky Ponting
4) Viv Richards
5) AB de Villiers
6) MS Dhoni (wk)
7) Imran Khan (c)
8) Wasim Akram
9) Saqlain Mushtaq
10) Muttiah Muralitharan
11) Glenn McGrath

12) Joel Garner

This makes the bowling attack bullet-proof on any kind of wicket except for Australian ones, where Garner would come back in for one of the spinners.

Kohli is not there because he is a choker. While Amla is there because....... reasons.

 

[Rahul1]

He is a liability as a batsman.. his technique is patchy and he can't rotate the strike or score at pace..

His honeymoon period is over.. bowlers world over have figured him out .. a overhyped cricketer who doesn't deserve to be anywhere near ODI XI .. Depends too much on others to face quality bowling, always chickens out when it matters..

Spoken like a totally clueless guy. Dhoni has been well past his prime for the last 3 years but in his prime he was one of the very best ODI batsman in the world

 

[Bilal7]

Kohli is not there because he is a choker. While Amla is there because....... reasons.

Less competition. Amla would not get in ahead of Ponting either.

 

[GLORY OF '92]

Sachin
Gilly
Kohli
Ponting
AB
Dhoni
Klusener
Wasim
Warne
McGrath
Lee

Unbeatable

 

[Adijazz1706]

Sachin Tendulkar
Sanath Jayasuriya
Ricky Ponting*
Virat Kohli
AB De Villiers
MS Dhoni+
Lance Klusener
Shahid Afridi
Wasim Akram
Waqar Younis
Saqlain Mushtaq

Actually more Pakistanis than Indians

Pollock for , Gilchrist for Dhoni and Sanga for Jayasuriya, and Murali for Saqi

 

[axis]

You don't have to be the MOTM to have a match-winning contribution in a match. Had Imran (and Miandad, of course) not scored those runs, the English would have cut right through our batting.

A useful and important contribution to help win the match for sure, but by no means a match winning performance.. it was similar to what Steve Waugh played in 1999 WC SF, but no one remembers him as a match winner for that match.

That match was won by bowlers, as 249 was very much an achievable target and had Akram not ripped through with those 2 wickets, England could well have cruised to get the remaining 100-odd runs with 6 wickets in hand.

 

[Rahul1]

Less competition. Amla would not get in ahead of Ponting either.

Gilchrist, Jayasuriya, Ganguly, Hayden, Gibbs, Waugh. Sure. Less 'competition'.

 

[axis]

Murali was the only world class bowler in his team for most of his career. Only Vaas gave him some company in the middle.

Saqlain came on to bowl after bowlers like Wasim, Waqar, Shoaib.

And most importantly, Saqlain could play at that level for only 8 years. Murali did it for 19 years. More than twice as long a career!

No prizes for guessing which spinner had more on their plate. There is no comparison!

Murali has been the lone bowler in his team for majority of his career, but in ODIs he got quite good support from Vaas and other part time spinners.

Anyway, your answer has nothing to do with the crux of my post, as my post was a reply to the claim that 90s Indian batting line up was a lallu/fixer/raw batting line up and hence was a pushover..

I showed that the same pushover Indian batting line up of the 90s which Saqlain was successful against, hammered Murali..

If you want to take example of other good fast bowlers in the team, let's take the other premier spinner of that era and how he performed against the same batting line up..

Shane Warne:

Career average against all teams : 25.73
Average against lallu/fixers batting line up of 90s India : 56.50

This lallu/fixer/raw Indian batting line up of the 90s was a spin killer.. they just murdered any great spinner who came their way.. Saqlain was hammered too, but still managed to maintain his figures, speaks volumes about his ability as an ODI spinner.

 

[Bilal7]

A useful and important contribution to help win the match for sure, but by no means a match winning performance.. it was similar to what Steve Waugh played in 1999 WC SF, but no one remembers him as a match winner for that match.

That match was won by bowlers, as 249 was very much an achievable target and had Akram not ripped through with those 2 wickets, England could well have cruised to get the remaining 100-odd runs with 6 wickets in hand.

It was a match-winning contribution because if those runs had not been scored, England would have most likely won. There can be more than one match-winning performance in a game.

 

[axis]

This lallu/fixer/raw Indian batting line up of the 90s was a spin killer.. they just murdered any great spinner who came their way..

Some of the best players of spin bowling ever in ODI cricket played in that Indian line up.. Tendulkar, Sidhu, Kambli, Azhar, Ganguly were as good as any batting combination any team put on the field in the cricketing history in terms of playing spin bowling..

 

[Bilal7]

Gilchrist, Jayasuriya, Ganguly, Hayden, Gibbs, Waugh. Sure. Less 'competition'.

Compared to Ponting, Viv, de Villiers, Miandad, Inzamam, Bevan, etc. it is.

You can't play Gilly and Dhoni in the same lineup and people overrate Jayasuriya because of nostalgia. The rest although good were not as good as Amla.

 

[the_outsider]

Murali has been the lone bowler in his team for majority of his career, but in ODIs he got quite good support from Vaas and other part time spinners.

Anyway, your answer has nothing to do with the crux of my post, as my post was a reply to the claim that 90s Indian batting line up was a lallu/fixer/raw batting line up and hence was a pushover..

I showed that the same pushover Indian batting line up of the 90s which Saqlain was successful against, hammered Murali..

If you want to take example of other good fast bowlers in the team, let's take the other premier spinner of that era and how he performed against the same batting line up..

Shane Warne:

Career average against all teams : 25.73
Average against lallu/fixers batting line up of 90s India : 56.50

This lallu/fixer/raw Indian batting line up of the 90s was a spin killer.. they just murdered any great spinner who came their way.. Saqlain was hammered too, but still managed to maintain his figures, speaks volumes about his ability as an ODI spinner.

Why suddenly is 90s India's "lalu" batsmen the benchmark now? Only a Pak fan would think that way, obssessed about India.

Look at Warne and Murali's success against your own batsmen. They pawned your batsmen just much as Saqlain.

Warne and Murali are a few notches above Saqlain, whether you like it or not, kiddo.

 

[axis]

It was a match-winning contribution because if those runs had not been scored, England would have most likely won. There can be more than one match-winning performance in a game.

OK.. I think our standards of judging an innings or classification are different.. I can understand your view but I don't rate that innings very highly.. it was by all means a very useful knock which helped build the platform for Inzy and Akram to launch the onslaught, but in terms of impact on the match, it was by no means comparable to Kapil's 175 which turned the match around, and single handedly won the match.

Let's agree to disagree.

 

[austerlitz]

Say again ???

Here are Saqlain and Murali's comparative performances against India (90s and 2000s) and overall.

Saqlain :

Overall average : 21.78
Average against Indian batting line up (he only played India in 90s) : 24.38


Murali:

overall career average against ALL teams : 23.08
Average against lallu/fixers batting line up of 90s India : 46.06
Average against a strong and improved Indian batting of noughties : 25.62

It is clear that the same lallu/raw/fixer batting line up of the 90s hammered Murali and took twice as many runs per wicket than what he had to pay against all the other teams in his career.

Nope,thing is murali became a far better bowler once he developed the doosra around 99-2000.His figures in the 90s are inflated due to a beating he took in 95 tour when he was totally raw and sidhu destroyed him.Saqlain never faced sidhu who also hammered warne.

 

[axis]

Why suddenly is 90s India's "lalu" batsmen the benchmark now? Only a Pak fan would think that way, obssessed about India.

Look at Warne and Murali's success against your own batsmen. They pawned your batsmen just much as Saqlain.

Warne and Murali are a few notches above Saqlain, whether you like it or not, kiddo.

Bhai, do you read the post in context or just take it in isolation and respond ? Kindly read the post which I replied to.. to better understand why 90s lallu/fixer/raw Indian batting line up is being mentioned.

 

[axis]

Nope,thing is murali became a far better bowler once he developed the doosra around 99-2000.His figures in the 90s are inflated due to a beating he took in 95 tour when he was totally raw and sidhu destroyed him.Saqlain never faced sidhu who also hammered warne.

I gave Warne's figures too.. Sidhu no doubt was good , but he was not alone.. Azhar, Tendulkar, Kambli, Ganguly all were very good players of spin.

 

[Bilal7]

OK.. I think our standards of judging an innings or classification are different.. I can understand your view but I don't rate that innings very highly.. it was by all means a very useful knock which helped build the platform for Inzy and Akram to launch the onslaught, but in terms of impact on the match, it was by no means comparable to Kapil's 175 which turned the match around, and single handedly won the match.

Let's agree to disagree.

I rate that innings highly due to the context, which is also why I rate Dhoni's 90-odd in the 2011 final highly. These guys got just one chance and left their mark at the biggest stage while many other specialist batsmen failed spectacularly multiple times.

 

[axis]

I rate that innings highly due to the context, which is also why I rate Dhoni's 90-odd in the 2011 final highly. These guys got just one chance and left their mark at the biggest stage while many other specialist batsmen failed spectacularly multiple times.

The biggest stage can not alone be used to judge the value of an ODI player.. many didn't get to play in WC final.. and context wise Inzy's SF innings was equally big stage.. and he played a blinder..

I only rate those innings as match winning which changed the course of the match significantly on their own..

I don't give more value to finals of the WC than SF/QF as the pressure is almost equal in any KO match at the WC.

 

[axis]

Compared to Ponting, Viv, de Villiers, Miandad, Inzamam, Bevan, etc. it is.

You can't play Gilly and Dhoni in the same lineup and people overrate Jayasuriya because of nostalgia. The rest although good were not as good as Amla.

Honestly speaking, I never feared Amla the ODI batsman, though he was a very good ODI bat, but come the pressure situation, I would fear any other opening batsman more than Amla.

Ganguly and Sehwag both partnered Tendulkar already and know and complement him very well.. I would even go for Saeed Anwar as Tendulkar's partner instead of Amla.

 

[axis]

Nope,thing is murali became a far better bowler once he developed the doosra around 99-2000.His figures in the 90s are inflated due to a beating he took in 95 tour when he was totally raw and sidhu destroyed him.Saqlain never faced sidhu who also hammered warne.

Murali was a very good bowler even before the doosra, let his figures against Indian lallu/fixer/raw batting line up of the 90s not fool us..

His average in the 90s against all the teams was : 27 this was spoiled by Indian batting line up.. against all the other teams he averaged less than 30..

That Indian battling line up of the 90s was the litmus test of spin bowling.

 

[BunnyRabbit]

All time XI's are always subjective and will have bias in it. There's no way there could be a right or wrong XI.
As for me my XI would be like this

Adam Gilchrist (wk)
Sachin Tendulkar
Virat Kohli
Viv Richards (C)
AB De Villiers
Michael Bevan
Lance Klusener
Shaun Pollock
Wasim Akram
Saqlain Mushtaq/Shane Warne
Muttiah Muralitharan/Daniel Vettori

Even here, there are far too many players that could not be included due to the balance.
For example, the only reason Vettori is there because you need to have 2 spinners atleast in your XI except in Australia where you can go in with 4 pacers.
If Dhoni has to come in at no. 7, one of Gili or Sachin would have to be replaced by Sanath Jayasuria who provides the spinning option. Jayasuria's record in the middle order isn't really good enough to be included.
When it comes to pure finishing skills, there is competition between only 2 guys, Bevan and Dhoni. I prefered Bevan because he averaged over 50 in an era where average of 50 in LOI's was unheard of.
Plus he was actually averaging around 70's till 2000-01.
Imagine having AB, Bevan, Klusener coming in at 5 6 7, with the top 4 except Gili, all were the guys who wouldn't give their wicket away cheaply.
Wanted to include Sangakkara in as well as he has been a personal favourite of mine, but I think AB is a better option at 5.
Shaun Pollock just edges out McGrath because of his superior batting ability. Both were pretty similar ODI bowlers though, Pollock a bit more defensive though.

 

[barah_admi]

Sachin, Kohli and MSD are certainties in the X1. Decent cases can be made for Kapil Dev (although I would not pick him - better bowlers and sloggers exist) and Rohit Sharma.

Sharma has emerged as a monstrous ODI player. No batsman has scored massive hundreds with the frequency at which he does. Given that ODIs are uniformly played on flat decks, he has all surface insurance. On a good deck, he is the most devastating opener I have seen.

So, potentially,

SRT
Rohit
VK
-
-
MSD
Kapil
-
-
-
-

Insane progress since the start of the 21st century.

MSD over GIlchrist? Nope.

Kapil? So looking at other all rounders, nope.

Rohit the flat track bully? Nope.

Tendulkar and Kohli (not sure if he gets in at three considering that is Ponting's domain).

So in reality, without the Indian glasses on, Tendulkar is the only unanimous choice. Kohli might be second likeliest. Rohit isn't even a top 10 opener.

 

[ManFan]

The only Indians would be Tendulkar, MS, and Kohli.

Tendulkar
Gilly
Kohli
Viv (c)
Sanga
Dhoni (wk)
Klusner
Akram
Saqlain
Garner
McGrath

 

[the_outsider]

The only Indians would be Tendulkar, MS, and Kohli.

Tendulkar
Gilly
Kohli
Viv (c)
Sanga
Dhoni (wk)
Klusner
Akram
Saqlain
Garner
McGrath

How are people who have Wasim in their XI justify having Saqlain over Murali?

I just don't understand understand this. Murali is the highest ODI wicket taker ever! Even more than Wasim. How is he superceded by a bowler who has almost 250 less wickets?

 

[Joseph Gomes]

Sacin, Bevan, Viv, MSD, Wasim, Mcgrath and Garner are absolute locked imo. All WC winners, Performed amazingly at the biggest events.

You can only have Bevan or MSD. Better swap Bevan for ABD since Bevan can't play aggressive (Bevan's SR was slow even for his time, let alone present).

 

[Joseph Gomes]

Gilchrist, Jayasuriya, Ganguly, Hayden, Gibbs, Waugh. Sure. Less 'competition'.

Forget those guys, Amla wouldn't even be ahead of Rohit and Dhawan. Especially Dhawan who is clutch in ICC tournaments

 

[Bhaag Viru Bhaag]

If we imagine the XI we are picking will actually play then those who are selecting Dhoni in their teams should also keep in my mind that dhoni won't take retirement easily.

And the same set of fans who are picking him as a wicket keeper batsman will show no respect and be the first ones to cuss him. That is another reason I would pick Gilly because he knew when to walk off and when to call it quits.

I found it pretty sad when noobs who have just started watching cricket were calling Dhoni names in the Asia Cup match threads. I want to save Dhoni from those fans. Will definitely pick him as the 12th player.

 

[ManFan]

How are people who have Wasim in their XI justify having Saqlain over Murali?

I just don't understand understand this. Murali is the highest ODI wicket taker ever! Even more than Wasim. How is he superceded by a bowler who has almost 250 less wickets?

Saqlain has a lower SR and a better average while Murali has a better ER.

Plus, despite playing 181 more ODI matches than Saqlain, Murali only had three-more 5-fer's.

 

[Ab Fan]

My Unbiased ODI XI would be:-

Tendulkar
Gilchrist(wkt)
Kohli
Viv
AB
Dhoni(C)
Klusenar
Wasim
Warne/Murali
Garner
McGrath

Openers, as clear, Tendulkar and Gilchrist, the latter not as consistent but <B>we need one opener from non-Asian countries for those conditions</B> who can take on the attack early on while the former doesn't need any description. He is as prolific as anyone and will bat all the way.

At no.3 and 4, the greatest chaser ever followed by the greatest ODI batsmen ever.

At 5,6 and 7, we have AB, MSD and Klusenar. AB's outrageous skills-set will be complimented very nicely by MSD's unmatchable game-awareness and strategy. At 7, another quality finisher Klusenar can come in and he will be my fifth bowling option as well. If Dhoni at times goes into tuk-tuk mode and loses his quick-scoring ability, one of AB and Klusenar can make up for it.

Fast bowlers, the easiest- Wasim, McGrath and Garner. No discussion needed for it.

Spinner was a bit tough between Murali and Warne. Warne perhaps due to having a better mind and bigger personality but I won't mind taking Murali either. In Asia, both will be there and Garner misses out.

 

[the_outsider]

Saqlain has a lower SR and a better average while Murali has a better ER.

Plus, despite playing 181 more ODI matches than Saqlain, Murali only had three-more 5-fer's.

Longevity matters. It's one of the more important factors in determining greatness. Much more than small details like SR and 5fers over a career spanning almost 20 years.

 

[the_outsider]

My Unbiased ODI XI would be:-

Tendulkar
Gilchrist(wkt)
Kohli
Viv
AB
Dhoni(C)
Klusenar
Wasim
Warne/Murali
Garner
McGrath

Openers, as clear, Tendulkar and Gilchrist, the latter not as consistent but <B>we need one opener from non-Asian countries for those conditions</B> who can take on the attack early on while the former doesn't need any description. He is as prolific as anyone and will bat all the way.

At no.3 and 4, the greatest chaser ever followed by the greatest ODI batsmen ever.

At 5,6 and 7, we have AB, MSD and Klusenar. AB's outrageous skills-set will be complimented very nicely by MSD's unmatchable game-awareness and strategy. At 7, another quality finisher Klusenar can come in and he will be my fifth bowling option as well. If Dhoni at times goes into tuk-tuk mode and loses his quick-scoring ability, one of AB and Klusenar can make up for it.

Fast bowlers, the easiest- Wasim, McGrath and Garner. No discussion needed for it.

Spinner was a bit tough between Murali and Warne. Warne perhaps due to having a better mind and bigger personality but I won't mind taking Murali either. In Asia, both will be there and Garner misses out.

Very good XI. Very good team balance.

 

[CadPakFan]

This would be my all time XI

1. Sachin Tendulkar
2. Adam Gilchrist
3. Don Bradman
4. Viv Richards
5. Jacques Kallis
6. Brian Lara
7. Imran Khan
8. Wasim Akram
9. Shane Warne
10. Muttiah Muralitharan
11. Glenn Mcgrath

 

[Joseph Gomes]

My Unbiased ODI XI would be:-

Tendulkar
Gilchrist(wkt)
Kohli
Viv
AB
Dhoni(C)
Klusenar
Wasim
Warne/Murali
Garner
McGrath

Openers, as clear, Tendulkar and Gilchrist, the latter not as consistent but <B>we need one opener from non-Asian countries for those conditions</B> who can take on the attack early on while the former doesn't need any description. He is as prolific as anyone and will bat all the way.

At no.3 and 4, the greatest chaser ever followed by the greatest ODI batsmen ever.

At 5,6 and 7, we have AB, MSD and Klusenar. AB's outrageous skills-set will be complimented very nicely by MSD's unmatchable game-awareness and strategy. At 7, another quality finisher Klusenar can come in and he will be my fifth bowling option as well. If Dhoni at times goes into tuk-tuk mode and loses his quick-scoring ability, one of AB and Klusenar can make up for it.

Fast bowlers, the easiest- Wasim, McGrath and Garner. No discussion needed for it.

Spinner was a bit tough between Murali and Warne. Warne perhaps due to having a better mind and bigger personality but I won't mind taking Murali either. In Asia, both will be there and Garner misses out.

I would swap Garner for Lee. Other than that, good squad.

 

[Joseph Gomes]

This would be my all time XI

1. Sachin Tendulkar
2. Adam Gilchrist
3. Don Bradman
4. Viv Richards
5. Jacques Kallis
6. Brian Lara
7. Imran Khan
8. Wasim Akram
9. Shane Warne
10. Muttiah Muralitharan
11. Glenn Mcgrath

Don Bradman in All time ODI XI? Wut?

 

[the_outsider]

I would swap Garner for Lee. Other than that, good squad.

Lee is surprisingly underrated in ODIs.

 

[Joseph Gomes]

Lee is surprisingly underrated in ODIs.

Lee is an undisputed ODI ATG, averages < 30 in all countries except India, averages < 18 in World Cup, has more 5wkt than Wasim Akram, and bowled in an era which where pitches was rapidly becoming flat.

 

[axis]

Lee is surprisingly underrated in ODIs.

Yes, he was terrific in ODIs for quite some time and at his peak was better than McGrath in ODIs.

McGrath, however had a knack of getting top drawer batsmen out on big stages.

 

[axis]

This would be my all time XI

1. Sachin Tendulkar
2. Adam Gilchrist
3. Don Bradman
4. Viv Richards
5. Jacques Kallis
6. Brian Lara
7. Imran Khan
8. Wasim Akram
9. Shane Warne
10. Muttiah Muralitharan
11. Glenn Mcgrath

Who is the captain of your side ? Bradman or Imran ?

 

[axis]

Spoken like a totally clueless guy. Dhoni has been well past his prime for the last 3 years but in his prime he was one of the very best ODI batsman in the world

He was never feared by opposition bowlers.. only performed when things were easy.. against good bowling attacks, his technique was exposed.. never performed well when really mattered. Most of his average was based on scoring not-outs in the JAMODIs.

 

[CadPakFan]

Who is the captain of your side ? Bradman or Imran ?

Imran