"Incompetence is a bigger constraint than corruption" : Atif Mian

[Mamoon]

Atif Mian, one of the leading economists in the world, shared some fascinating insight on the debate between corruption vs. incompetence, and their respective impacts on the development of a country.

Unfortunately, Pakistan has been deprived of his expertise because of our Prime Minister could not withstand the pressure of the right-wing so have a problem with Atif Mian's religious orientation.

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">1/ I will go with the minority view on this poll and argue that incompetence is the bigger constraint on development than corruption (of course ideally we want to avoid both).<br><br>Let's compare China and Saudi Arabia <a href="https://t.co/RZMlobNH2a">pic.twitter.com/RZMlobNH2a</a></p>— Atif Mian (@AtifRMian) <a href="https://twitter.com/AtifRMian/status/1116333404134551553?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">April 11, 2019</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">2/ They are both centralized power structures with a lot of corruption at the top. But Chinese system differs in one important way: it encourages competition within the power structure and favors those who can deliver stronger productivity (think of local gov targets etc)</p>— Atif Mian (@AtifRMian) <a href="https://twitter.com/AtifRMian/status/1116333405145305088?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">April 11, 2019</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">3/ In a sense the Chinese recognize that a growing pie offers a lot more to pick from, and enables centralized power to stay longer. <br><br>SA is unable to do anything similar, with the result that there is no dynamism, and one sees glaringly incompetent policies like "saudization"</p>— Atif Mian (@AtifRMian) <a href="https://twitter.com/AtifRMian/status/1116333405795442688?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">April 11, 2019</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">4/ The eventual success of a system relies on one key Q: How effectively does it delegate power to the most competent?<br><br>There is no doubt that corruption can come in the way of such delegation. But even a corrupt system can deliver if it finds a way to delegate to the competent.</p>— Atif Mian (@AtifRMian) <a href="https://twitter.com/AtifRMian/status/1116333406407798784?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">April 11, 2019</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

As I have been saying for a long time now, nothing stands between development and progress more than incompetence. A corrupt but competent individual will always be more productive than an honest but incompetent individual.

Unfortunately, it appears that a professor of economics and public policy at an Ivy League university, and one of the 25 leading economists in the world as identified by IMF, needs to take economic lessons from PTI supporters and Imran Khan, who are adamant that the honesty is the solution to every problem and corruption is the biggest obstacle in the development of Pakistan.

Unless and until PTI and their supporters realise that incompetency is a bigger roadblock than corruption, they will not be able to steer in the country in the right direction. They have got their priorities wrong and that is why their government has turned into a circus.

This is particular important in light of Asad Umar's sacking, who was championed as the solution to Pakistan's economic woes for years and how he was honest etc. What good did his honesty do when his own PM came to the conclusion within 8 months that he is not up to the task?

This of course is not to say that PMLN and PPP governments were competent. Of course they were not, but it is very critical to understand that their failures were down to their incompetence and not their corruption.

We need to focus on what they did wrong in terms of policies and decisions rather than how much money they stole, because if they were competent, they would have helped the economy develop in spite of their corruption.

Along with incompetency, another major constraint on our development has been military interference, but I would not like to elaborate on that further because it is beyond the scope of this particular thread.

It is high time for Imran Khan and PTI supporters to realise that obsessing with corruption and taking pride in their honesty is not going to change the fortunes of this country. We need to develop a culture of competency and excellence where individuals where accountability is appraisal is performance-based and not honesty-based.

Once a certain level of competency is reached, you can also try to find a way to deal with corruption, but it is important to not lose sight of the number one priority, because ultimately Pakistan finds itself in the dumps today not because of corruption but because of incompetency.

 

[Technics 1210]

So to sum up, according to the fella in the OP, Atif Mian is a world renowned economist respected globally thus should be listened to, but Imran Khan who is also respected globally is an abject failure and should be ignored.

Someone is missing his brown envelopes.

 

[Mamoon]

So to sum up, according to the fella in the OP, Atif Mian is a world renowned economist respected globally thus should be listened to, but Imran Khan who is also respected globally is an abject failure and should be ignored.

Someone is missing his brown envelopes.

Atif Mian is one of the leading economists in the world, a professor at Princetown and has a PhD in economics. Imran Khan is a cricketer turned politician, who probably hasn't even studied economics at university.

Atif Mian's word on economic development is a billion times more credible than Imran Khan and their supporters, just like Imran Khan's word on cricket is a billion times more credible than Atif Mian's.

 

[Technics 1210]

Atif Mian is one of the leading economists in the world, a professor at Princetown and has a PhD in economics. Imran Khan is a cricketer turned politician, who probably hasn't even studied economics at university.

Atif Mian's word on economic development is a billion times more credible than Imran Khan and their supporters, just like Imran Khan's word on cricket is a billion times more credible than Atif Mian's.

Modi was a chai walla turned PM
Trump was a TV celebrity turned President.
Ronald Reagan was an actor turned President.
Shareef was a business before turning PM
Zaradari was a crook before turning President.

I could go on and on, and none of them studied economics - what is your point exactly?

And save this nonsense about being a PhD. It means nothing. Bush had 16 economic PhD advisers around him in 2008 and they could not foresee the economic crash.

You are right on one aspect, Imran Khan has leadership skills and qualities thanks to his experience in Cricket.

 

[Prince of Pakistan]

Will always regret the fact that PTI couldn't protect one of Pakistan's brightest. Would have been a huge move to the right direction for all minorities in Pakistan.

What Atif said might be true, but in Pakistan's case it doesn't matter. Corruption is a given and the people we feel might be competent turn out to be incompetent. Now there are many factors, but how many past govts had brilliant minds?

No wonder Pakistan is where it is and the army always had to interfere.

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

Excellent thread by [MENTION=131701]Mamoon[/MENTION].

Waging a lone battle against an army who naively think corruption is the biggest issue.

Look at the data and it's hardly the case.

Competence + Corruption >>> Incompetence + Honesty

By the way, one question.....how do you know for sure PTI is honest?

Running a party costs a LOT of money.

Where will the money come from?

Does Pakistani parties disclose all sources of its donation?

It's a massive problem in the SC.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

I don't disagree with Mian's conclusion, but not really sure what is the point Mamoon is attempting to derive from it. Under previous administrations we had corruption and incompetence, now that we are attacking corruption, then the idea would be it would create an atmosphere where competence and meritocracy can be encouraged.

 

[Bewal Express]

Atif Mian, one of the leading economists in the world, shared some fascinating insight on the debate between corruption vs. incompetence, and their respective impacts on the development of a country.

Unfortunately, Pakistan has been deprived of his expertise because of our Prime Minister could not withstand the pressure of the right-wing so have a problem with Atif Mian's religious orientation.

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">1/ I will go with the minority view on this poll and argue that incompetence is the bigger constraint on development than corruption (of course ideally we want to avoid both).<br><br>Let's compare China and Saudi Arabia <a href="https://t.co/RZMlobNH2a">pic.twitter.com/RZMlobNH2a</a></p>— Atif Mian (@AtifRMian) <a href="https://twitter.com/AtifRMian/status/1116333404134551553?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">April 11, 2019</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">2/ They are both centralized power structures with a lot of corruption at the top. But Chinese system differs in one important way: it encourages competition within the power structure and favors those who can deliver stronger productivity (think of local gov targets etc)</p>— Atif Mian (@AtifRMian) <a href="https://twitter.com/AtifRMian/status/1116333405145305088?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">April 11, 2019</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">3/ In a sense the Chinese recognize that a growing pie offers a lot more to pick from, and enables centralized power to stay longer. <br><br>SA is unable to do anything similar, with the result that there is no dynamism, and one sees glaringly incompetent policies like "saudization"</p>— Atif Mian (@AtifRMian) <a href="https://twitter.com/AtifRMian/status/1116333405795442688?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">April 11, 2019</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">4/ The eventual success of a system relies on one key Q: How effectively does it delegate power to the most competent?<br><br>There is no doubt that corruption can come in the way of such delegation. But even a corrupt system can deliver if it finds a way to delegate to the competent.</p>— Atif Mian (@AtifRMian) <a href="https://twitter.com/AtifRMian/status/1116333406407798784?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">April 11, 2019</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

As I have been saying for a long time now, nothing stands between development and progress more than incompetence. A corrupt but competent individual will always be more productive than an honest but incompetent individual.

Unfortunately, it appears that a professor of economics and public policy at an Ivy League university, and one of the 25 leading economists in the world as identified by IMF, needs to take economic lessons from PTI supporters and Imran Khan, who are adamant that the honesty is the solution to every problem and corruption is the biggest obstacle in the development of Pakistan.

Unless and until PTI and their supporters realise that incompetency is a bigger roadblock than corruption, they will not be able to steer in the country in the right direction. They have got their priorities wrong and that is why their government has turned into a circus.

This is particular important in light of Asad Umar's sacking, who was championed as the solution to Pakistan's economic woes for years and how he was honest etc. What good did his honesty do when his own PM came to the conclusion within 8 months that he is not up to the task?

This of course is not to say that PMLN and PPP governments were competent. Of course they were not, but it is very critical to understand that their failures were down to their incompetence and not their corruption.

We need to focus on what they did wrong in terms of policies and decisions rather than how much money they stole, because if they were competent, they would have helped the economy develop in spite of their corruption.

Along with incompetency, another major constraint on our development has been military interference, but I would not like to elaborate on that further because it is beyond the scope of this particular thread.

It is high time for Imran Khan and PTI supporters to realise that obsessing with corruption and taking pride in their honesty is not going to change the fortunes of this country. We need to develop a culture of competency and excellence where individuals where accountability is appraisal is performance-based and not honesty-based.

Once a certain level of competency is reached, you can also try to find a way to deal with corruption, but it is important to not lose sight of the number one priority, because ultimately Pakistan finds itself in the dumps today not because of corruption but because of incompetency.

So can you tell us what these Corrupt people are competent at? The reality is that people that are Corrupt don't have any time for competency. Can someone tell us how these Corrupt people got on in establishing a sustainable economy, a justice system that brings justice, an education system for the masses, a health system for the masses, environmental degradation, institutional improvement and building etc. [MENTION=131701]Mamoon[/MENTION]

 

[Afhan Ali]

Well done Mamoon
These blind PTI supporter never want to see anything, they just made Imran khan a Masseha for us
And you are also right about the fact that the most honest man on the earth will not do anything if he is incompetent

 

[Bewal Express]

Well done Mamoon
These blind PTI supporter never want to see anything, they just made Imran khan a Masseha for us
And you are also right about the fact that the most honest man on the earth will not do anything if he is incompetent

Can you name any PK Politicians that are Corrupt and competent. We have had 10 years of Corruption, can you tell us the success stories, I await with anticipation

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Well done Mamoon
These blind PTI supporter never want to see anything, they just made Imran khan a Masseha for us
And you are also right about the fact that the most honest man on the earth will not do anything if he is incompetent

Atif Mian raised some decent points, we pointed out that he is right to a degree, but the problem is the alternative to Imran Khan was incompetence AND corruption. You could have presented an argument to show this was wrong, instead you have launched into attacks on posters and how they view IK as Maseeha.

I hate to say it, but that is a prime example of incompetence.

 

[Mamoon]

I don't disagree with Mian's conclusion, but not really sure what is the point Mamoon is attempting to derive from it. Under previous administrations we had corruption and incompetence, now that we are attacking corruption, then the idea would be it would create an atmosphere where competence and meritocracy can be encouraged.

The point that I am deriving is that we have got our priorities wrong. Instead of attacking corruption, our first and foremost priority should be to develop competency.

Once the economy reaches a certain level, perhaps we can be in a position to attack corruption. India is a prime example - it is one of the most corrupt countries in the world, but corruption has not stunted their economic growth.

They are one of the fastest growing economies in the world and have developed modern industries with foreign reserves of over $400m that puts them in the world top 10.

In spite of corruption, they are a good three decades ahead of Pakistan in terms to economic development. Had they preoccupied themselves with ending corruption instead of developing competency, their economy would be no different to Pakistan today.

A country like India is now at a stage where it can afford to tackle corruption. On the other hand, Pakistan clearly is not. Competency has to precede corruption, it should not be the other way round.

If we try and wait for angels to descend from the heavens who are both competent and honest, it is never going to happen. We need to reconsider our priorities.

 

[Mamoon]

So can you tell us what these Corrupt people are competent at? The reality is that people that are Corrupt don't have any time for competency. Can someone tell us how these Corrupt people got on in establishing a sustainable economy, a justice system that brings justice, an education system for the masses, a health system for the masses, environmental degradation, institutional improvement and building etc. [MENTION=131701]Mamoon[/MENTION]

Your theory is debunked by many countries, most notably India who have managed economic development in spite of heavy corruption. PMLN and PPP failed because they were incompetent and not because they were corrupt.

Let’s assume that Asad Umar is honest and Atif Mian is corrupt. Who would you rather have as your Finance Minister based on their competency and expertise? The honest answer to this question is Atif Mian, whose competency will enable him to deliver in spite of his corruption as opposed to the honest but incompetent Asad Umar.

 

[Mamoon]

Modi was a chai walla turned PM
Trump was a TV celebrity turned President.
Ronald Reagan was an actor turned President.
Shareef was a business before turning PM
Zaradari was a crook before turning President.

I could go on and on, and none of them studied economics - what is your point exactly?

And save this nonsense about being a PhD. It means nothing. Bush had 16 economic PhD advisers around him in 2008 and they could not foresee the economic crash.

You are right on one aspect, Imran Khan has leadership skills and qualities thanks to his experience in Cricket.

My point is that none of these leaders that you cited are authorities on economics and finance, but Atif Mian is one of the world leaders in this respect.

Yes PhD means nothing, authoring a critically-acclaimed, award winning book on economics means nothing, experience as a professor of economics and public policy at an Ivy League university means nothing and neither does the IMF endorsing you as one of the 25 leading economists in the world.

None of that prove your credentials as an extremely competent economist because a poster on PakPassion thinks otherwise.

 

[Bewal Express]

Your theory is debunked by many countries, most notably India who have managed economic development in spite of heavy corruption. PMLN and PPP failed because they were incompetent and not because they were corrupt.

Let’s assume that Asad Umar is honest and Atif Mian is corrupt. Who would you rather have as your Finance Minister based on their competency and expertise? The honest answer to this question is Atif Mian, whose competency will enable him to deliver in spite of his corruption as opposed to the honest but incompetent Asad Umar.

Forget theory, talk practically- we had 10 years of corrupt and incompetent govt before IK, So let's see what the empirical evidence is to support your views as far as PK is concerned. Let's talk about a sustainable economy, justice, education, health, environment etc. Can you tell us what great competence we saw from these Corrupt people you rate so highly?

 

[The_Odd_One]

I completely agree to the economist. Only in an ideal world will you find completely honest individuals. Corruption exists at all levels and it takes several decades to create a culture where major corruption is not tolerated. So, the immediate focus should not be on completely eliminating the corruption but to find the right people for the job with some form of accountability on their actions.

Corruption exists in the West and in large corporations but it never hinders their progress. Yes, PPP and PMLN were both corrupt and incompetent but what is stopping PTI from doing a better job than their predecessors?

If I remember correctly, when Musharraf came to power, there was still corruption but the country saw some good progress made. Musharraf worked within the existing system with the same individuals. Even, Karachi under Mustafa Kamal had more work done than any other time. If PTI can deliver at the economic front, people will be willing to forgive small corruption.

 

[natkhat-shahzada]

Forget theory, talk practically- we had 10 years of corrupt and incompetent govt before IK, So let's see what the empirical evidence is to support your views as far as PK is concerned. Let's talk about a sustainable economy, justice, education, health, environment etc. Can you tell us what great competence we saw from these Corrupt people you rate so highly?

I don't think Mamoon is not rating the previous governments. In the OP, he has mentioned that the previous governments were both incompetent and corrupt because if they were competent then we wouldn't have reached this point.

However, what you keep failing to understand is setting the priorities between competence and corruption. You keep bringing corruptions and consider it the sole reason for Pakistan's situation. It is, unfortunately, you who keep stick to theories and don't have a pragmatic approach. The practical example is India which is a very good one that was explained by Mamoon. But no, you like to live in Utopian's world and go in the tangent to the crux point.

On the topic:

I think it has dawned to IK that competence is more important which is why he has accepted Hafeez Sheikh as Finance Advisor and Ijaz Shah as Interior Minister. They both are tainted and not the angels or as clean that PTI claims themselves to be. But certainly, they are far more competent their predecessors who were rightly shown the doors.

 

[TalentSpotterPk]

[MENTION=131701]Mamoon[/MENTION]


Read Fahad Hussain’s article “ Genesis of Incompetence ”



There should be zero tolerance for Corruption. Surely but in Pakistan we all know that there is less accountability and more political engineering and victimisation on name of Accountability. With this neither there is political or economic stability in the country nor reduction in Corruption or improvement in transparency.



You just can’t run countries on spins and naaraaz “ choorhunga naheen ” , “ Rulaunga ” mantra’s. Yes with this you can appease Cult followers but you cannot progress.



You need competent people no doubt.



Just look at the great work Dr.Umar Saif has done for Punjab. Now he is being dragged in NAB. Is it On ?



How many competent doctors have left PKLI uptil now ? Forget about Centre of Excellence now.

 

[Bewal Express]

[MENTION=131701]Mamoon[/MENTION]


Read Fahad Hussain’s article “ Genesis of Incompetence ”



There should be zero tolerance for Corruption. Surely but in Pakistan we all know that there is less accountability and more political engineering and victimisation on name of Accountability. With this neither there is political or economic stability in the country nor reduction in Corruption or improvement in transparency.



You just can’t run countries on spins and naaraaz “ choorhunga naheen ” , “ Rulaunga ” mantra’s. Yes with this you can appease Cult followers but you cannot progress.



You need competent people no doubt.



Just look at the great work Dr.Umar Saif has done for Punjab. Now he is being dragged in NAB. Is it On ?



How many competent doctors have left PKLI uptil now ? Forget about Centre of Excellence now.

You got your backside kicked last week after you came out in support of SS and the very next day his son got humiliated on national TV and then you had squirm at trying to justify their Corruption.

 

[TalentSpotterPk]

Fawad Chaudhary who is a lawyer has been demoted because power corridors and Khan’s bestie wasn’t happy with him.


Nation has to suffer



<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="ur" dir="rtl">ہم ایسے ملک میں رہتے ہیں جہاں سائنس اور ٹیکنالوجی اور I.T کی منسٹری لوگوں کو سزا کے طور پر دی جاتی ہے ۔۔۔</p>— Umar Saif (@umarsaif) <a href="https://twitter.com/umarsaif/status/1119140431474774016?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">April 19, 2019</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

 

[Bewal Express]

I don't think Mamoon is not rating the previous governments. In the OP, he has mentioned that the previous governments were both incompetent and corrupt because if they were competent then we wouldn't have reached this point.

However, what you keep failing to understand is setting the priorities between competence and corruption. You keep bringing corruptions and consider it the sole reason for Pakistan's situation. It is, unfortunately, you who keep stick to theories and don't have a pragmatic approach. The practical example is India which is a very good one that was explained by Mamoon. But no, you like to live in Utopian's world and go in the tangent to the crux point.

On the topic:

I think it has dawned to IK that competence is more important which is why he has accepted Hafeez Sheikh as Finance Advisor and Ijaz Shah as Interior Minister. They both are tainted and not the angels or as clean that PTI claims themselves to be. But certainly, they are far more competent their predecessors who were rightly shown the doors.

I think you are wrong, he had called them competent.

 

[Afhan Ali]

Now I have a question from Mamoon

Who is better?
A) Honest and Incompetent
OR
B) Dishonest and Incompetent

 

[Slog]

Mamoon is right in his not so original assessment but it’s alsotrue that previous administrations were both incompetent AND a corrupt

 

[Technics 1210]

My point is that none of these leaders that you cited are authorities on economics and finance, but Atif Mian is one of the world leaders in this respect.

Yes PhD means nothing, authoring a critically-acclaimed, award winning book on economics means nothing, experience as a professor of economics and public policy at an Ivy League university means nothing and neither does the IMF endorsing you as one of the 25 leading economists in the world.

None of that prove your credentials as an extremely competent economist because a poster on PakPassion thinks otherwise.

I knew it. It was only a matter of time before you compared Pakistan with India, and to think yesterday you were comparing Israel with Muslim nations. You definitely have a bee in your bonnet.

Here's a thought, why don't you start paying your taxes in Pakistan, instead of supporting corruption; sure to count towards economic prosperity in Pakistan - best part is you don't need a PhD come to this conclusion!

Learn to be a competent civilian first.

 

[natkhat-shahzada]

Atif Mian, one of the leading economists in the world, shared some fascinating insight on the debate between corruption vs. incompetence, and their respective impacts on the development of a country.

Unfortunately, Pakistan has been deprived of his expertise because of our Prime Minister could not withstand the pressure of the right-wing so have a problem with Atif Mian's religious orientation.

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">1/ I will go with the minority view on this poll and argue that incompetence is the bigger constraint on development than corruption (of course ideally we want to avoid both).<br><br>Let's compare China and Saudi Arabia <a href="https://t.co/RZMlobNH2a">pic.twitter.com/RZMlobNH2a</a></p>— Atif Mian (@AtifRMian) <a href="https://twitter.com/AtifRMian/status/1116333404134551553?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">April 11, 2019</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">2/ They are both centralized power structures with a lot of corruption at the top. But Chinese system differs in one important way: it encourages competition within the power structure and favors those who can deliver stronger productivity (think of local gov targets etc)</p>— Atif Mian (@AtifRMian) <a href="https://twitter.com/AtifRMian/status/1116333405145305088?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">April 11, 2019</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">3/ In a sense the Chinese recognize that a growing pie offers a lot more to pick from, and enables centralized power to stay longer. <br><br>SA is unable to do anything similar, with the result that there is no dynamism, and one sees glaringly incompetent policies like "saudization"</p>— Atif Mian (@AtifRMian) <a href="https://twitter.com/AtifRMian/status/1116333405795442688?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">April 11, 2019</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">4/ The eventual success of a system relies on one key Q: How effectively does it delegate power to the most competent?<br><br>There is no doubt that corruption can come in the way of such delegation. But even a corrupt system can deliver if it finds a way to delegate to the competent.</p>— Atif Mian (@AtifRMian) <a href="https://twitter.com/AtifRMian/status/1116333406407798784?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">April 11, 2019</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

As I have been saying for a long time now, nothing stands between development and progress more than incompetence. A corrupt but competent individual will always be more productive than an honest but incompetent individual.

Unfortunately, it appears that a professor of economics and public policy at an Ivy League university, and one of the 25 leading economists in the world as identified by IMF, needs to take economic lessons from PTI supporters and Imran Khan, who are adamant that the honesty is the solution to every problem and corruption is the biggest obstacle in the development of Pakistan.

Unless and until PTI and their supporters realise that incompetency is a bigger roadblock than corruption, they will not be able to steer in the country in the right direction. They have got their priorities wrong and that is why their government has turned into a circus.

This is particular important in light of Asad Umar's sacking, who was championed as the solution to Pakistan's economic woes for years and how he was honest etc. What good did his honesty do when his own PM came to the conclusion within 8 months that he is not up to the task?

This of course is not to say that PMLN and PPP governments were competent. Of course they were not, but it is very critical to understand that their failures were down to their incompetence and not their corruption.

We need to focus on what they did wrong in terms of policies and decisions rather than how much money they stole, because if they were competent, they would have helped the economy develop in spite of their corruption.

Along with incompetency, another major constraint on our development has been military interference, but I would not like to elaborate on that further because it is beyond the scope of this particular thread.

It is high time for Imran Khan and PTI supporters to realise that obsessing with corruption and taking pride in their honesty is not going to change the fortunes of this country. We need to develop a culture of competency and excellence where individuals where accountability is appraisal is performance-based and not honesty-based.

Once a certain level of competency is reached, you can also try to find a way to deal with corruption, but it is important to not lose sight of the number one priority, because ultimately Pakistan finds itself in the dumps today not because of corruption but because of incompetency.

[MENTION=1269]Bewal Express[/MENTION].

Please see the bold part and let me know who is wrong

 

[Bewal Express]

[MENTION=1269]Bewal Express[/MENTION].

Please see the bold part and let me know who is wrong

He has said he will vote for NS, SS,Maryam and now Billo. He supports any crook he can find, I can't wait for him to tell you that they were competent.

 

[Bewal Express]

Btw he is saying this because I challenged to tell us when they have been competent? He wants us to believe that Corrupt people can be competent,. And I asked him us to show evidence and he ran and started to talk in generalities.

 

[natkhat-shahzada]

Btw he is saying this because I challenged to tell us when they have been competent? He wants us to believe that Corrupt people can be competent,. And I asked him us to show evidence and he ran and started to talk in generalities.

India is an example given and a very good one. Maybe you miss the points intentionally that don't go with your beliefs.

 

[Pete Rose]

Atif Mian, one of the leading economists in the world, shared some fascinating insight on the debate between corruption vs. incompetence, and their respective impacts on the development of a country.

Unfortunately, Pakistan has been deprived of his expertise because of our Prime Minister could not withstand the pressure of the right-wing so have a problem with Atif Mian's religious orientation.

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">1/ I will go with the minority view on this poll and argue that incompetence is the bigger constraint on development than corruption (of course ideally we want to avoid both).<br><br>Let's compare China and Saudi Arabia <a href="https://t.co/RZMlobNH2a">pic.twitter.com/RZMlobNH2a</a></p>— Atif Mian (@AtifRMian) <a href="https://twitter.com/AtifRMian/status/1116333404134551553?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">April 11, 2019</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">2/ They are both centralized power structures with a lot of corruption at the top. But Chinese system differs in one important way: it encourages competition within the power structure and favors those who can deliver stronger productivity (think of local gov targets etc)</p>— Atif Mian (@AtifRMian) <a href="https://twitter.com/AtifRMian/status/1116333405145305088?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">April 11, 2019</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">3/ In a sense the Chinese recognize that a growing pie offers a lot more to pick from, and enables centralized power to stay longer. <br><br>SA is unable to do anything similar, with the result that there is no dynamism, and one sees glaringly incompetent policies like "saudization"</p>— Atif Mian (@AtifRMian) <a href="https://twitter.com/AtifRMian/status/1116333405795442688?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">April 11, 2019</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">4/ The eventual success of a system relies on one key Q: How effectively does it delegate power to the most competent?<br><br>There is no doubt that corruption can come in the way of such delegation. But even a corrupt system can deliver if it finds a way to delegate to the competent.</p>— Atif Mian (@AtifRMian) <a href="https://twitter.com/AtifRMian/status/1116333406407798784?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">April 11, 2019</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

As I have been saying for a long time now, nothing stands between development and progress more than incompetence. A corrupt but competent individual will always be more productive than an honest but incompetent individual.

Unfortunately, it appears that a professor of economics and public policy at an Ivy League university, and one of the 25 leading economists in the world as identified by IMF, needs to take economic lessons from PTI supporters and Imran Khan, who are adamant that the honesty is the solution to every problem and corruption is the biggest obstacle in the development of Pakistan.

Unless and until PTI and their supporters realise that incompetency is a bigger roadblock than corruption, they will not be able to steer in the country in the right direction. They have got their priorities wrong and that is why their government has turned into a circus.

This is particular important in light of Asad Umar's sacking, who was championed as the solution to Pakistan's economic woes for years and how he was honest etc. What good did his honesty do when his own PM came to the conclusion within 8 months that he is not up to the task?

This of course is not to say that PMLN and PPP governments were competent. Of course they were not, but it is very critical to understand that their failures were down to their incompetence and not their corruption.

We need to focus on what they did wrong in terms of policies and decisions rather than how much money they stole, because if they were competent, they would have helped the economy develop in spite of their corruption.

Along with incompetency, another major constraint on our development has been military interference, but I would not like to elaborate on that further because it is beyond the scope of this particular thread.

It is high time for Imran Khan and PTI supporters to realise that obsessing with corruption and taking pride in their honesty is not going to change the fortunes of this country. We need to develop a culture of competency and excellence where individuals where accountability is appraisal is performance-based and not honesty-based.

Once a certain level of competency is reached, you can also try to find a way to deal with corruption, but it is important to not lose sight of the number one priority, because ultimately Pakistan finds itself in the dumps today not because of corruption but because of incompetency.

Atif Mian makes no mention of what is a sound political strategy of winning elections. He points out what costs an economy more.
The US economy was on sound footing in 2016 yet an outsider painted the whole system as rigged and corrupt and walked away with the election.

If I were advising a party on elections in Pakistan, I would always put corruption as an issue to campaign on.

 

[Technics 1210]

So to summarise what the OP is saying/supporting at the behest of a PhD

1. Previous governments of Pakistan were incompetent, but corrupt.
2. Current government of Pakistan is incompetent, but not corrupt.

Only a corrupt individual would support the former and dismiss the latter, and you don't need a PhD to tell you this.

It is evident, the brown envelope collectors are missing their wads of corrupt cash under Imran Khan - there is no other reason to despise him.

 

[Bewal Express]

India is an example given and a very good one. Maybe you miss the points intentionally that don't go with your beliefs.

His point of view serves his own life choices and background. Corrupt people are interested in making money and creating institutions that make sure they don't get caught. The poor are done over and the elite enjoy the riches, any trickle down is incidental, not part of a greater plan. I pose to you the question as I posed to him? We had 10 years of Corruption and incompetence, so where is the benefits to the country?

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

India is an example given and a very good one. Maybe you miss the points intentionally that don't go with your beliefs.

If India is a good example, then it is true whether you are looking at it from the angle of any political party, they will all face the same challenges whether PTI, PPP or PMLN. If you are going to use this to bash PTI, then it is also incumbent to show how other parties would have handled it differently, and presumably better.

 

[Pete Rose]

So to summarise what the OP is saying/supporting at the behest of a PhD

1. Previous governments of Pakistan were incompetent, but corrupt.
2. Current government of Pakistan is incompetent, but not corrupt.

Only a corrupt individual would support the former and dismiss the latter, and you don't need a PhD to tell you this.

It is evident, the brown envelope collectors are missing their wads of corrupt cash under Imran Khan - there is no other reason to despise him.

I really wish we wouldn't throw Atif Mian under the bus because of what the OP think is being said. Atif has been quite vicious on the bumbling of the PML. More worryingly Atif Mian talks in his thread about two types of autocratic systems: China and Saudi. and he goes to explain why China does well vs Saudi.
Pakistan's establishment plays close attention to the illiberal yet delivering growth governance of china. Presidential rule is not far behind.

 

[cric_man]

Can we have some examples of corrupt yet competent people that have delivered?

 

[MenInG]

The assumption is that corrupt will not come anywhere power but not in Pakistan

Corrupt guys can exist in their little bubbles as long as they dont hold the country hostage.

Unfortunately, corruption has many friends, especially those who benefit from it.

 

[WebGuru]

Can we have some examples of corrupt yet competent people that have delivered?

Zardari
Nawaz Sharif
Shehbaz Sharif

in this order they delivered (i mean to their bank accounts)

 

[Prince of Pakistan]

Can we have some examples of corrupt yet competent people that have delivered?

This.

Exactly what I said as well. Who were the geniuses in the past govts?

Suddenly everyone in the media sees incompetency and now this is the topic in the whole of Pakistan.

 

[WebGuru]

Interesting to see how people forget the fact that to do their corruption these people first destroy the institutions of the country...

 

[Technics 1210]

India is an example given and a very good one. Maybe you miss the points intentionally that don't go with your beliefs.

It’s one thing to compare with India, but to suggest the incumbent government of India is competent is stretching it.

Rise of religious violence
Failed demonetization
Rising Unemployment
IMF now questioning Indian GDP figures
Kashmiri Chai gate
Of course, blame Pakistan for everything.
Rampant business insolvencies/bankruptcies.
The list goes on.

But no, lets focus on reserves!

Lets here more on how you define competence given you relish comparisons with India.

 

[Mamoon]

I knew it. It was only a matter of time before you compared Pakistan with India, and to think yesterday you were comparing Israel with Muslim nations. You definitely have a bee in your bonnet.

Here's a thought, why don't you start paying your taxes in Pakistan, instead of supporting corruption; sure to count towards economic prosperity in Pakistan - best part is you don't need a PhD come to this conclusion!

Learn to be a competent civilian first.

I pay my taxes, but since I cannot prove it to you or anyone else here, you can happily believe that I don't. However, I have written in great length about the problem of tax evasion, and why the argument that people shouldn't pay taxes because the government is corrupt is wrong. Not paying taxes is our contribution to making our economy worse.

I will quote my post:

Even the most corrupt government in the world is going to spend money on roads, healthcare, education, infrastructure, defense etc. etc.

Let's assume that our corrupt government puts 80% of the tax money in their pockets and spends only 20% on the country. In reality, they certainly spend more than 20% on the country, but for the sake of discussion, let's assume these arbitrary numbers.

Now if our people decide that they are not going to pay taxes because our corrupt government spends only 20% of the tax money on the country, what do you think will happen?

The government will end up spending even less on the country because the total tax money collected is going to be less.

For example, if the Federal Board of Revenue collected PKR 2 billion in Year 1, the government is going to pocket 1.6 billion, and spend 0.4 billion on the country.

In Year 2, let's assume that half of the people decide that since the government is corrupt, they are not going to pay their taxes.

Hence, the Federal Board of Revenue will now collect PKR 1 billion instead of 2 billion. As a result, the government is going to pocket PKR 0.8 billion and will spend only 0.2 billion on the country, which is half of what they did in Year 1.

Therefore, by refusing to pay taxes because of the corrupt government, people are actually making things worse and doing further damage to the country.

The corruption of the government is not an excuse for tax evasion; it is the duty of every eligible citizen in the country to pay his/her taxes, and if every citizen in Pakistan fully pays his or her taxes, there will definitely be progress in the country regardless of how corrupt the government is.

 

[Mamoon]

Now I have a question from Mamoon

Who is better?
A) Honest and Incompetent
OR
B) Dishonest and Incompetent

Obviously A, but PTI doesn't fit that category either.

 

[Mamoon]

Can we have some examples of corrupt yet competent people that have delivered?

Zardari
Nawaz Sharif
Shehbaz Sharif

in this order they delivered (i mean to their bank accounts)

This.

Exactly what I said as well. Who were the geniuses in the past govts?

Suddenly everyone in the media sees incompetency and now this is the topic in the whole of Pakistan.

There are no such examples in Pakistan, but there is an obvious reason for it.

Pakistan has not been able to develop competency because of the constant military interference. When democratically elected governments are not allowed to complete their terms and thus fulfil their goals and objectives, how do you expect competencies to develop?

In an environment where the military has a stranglehold on the civilian government, you cannot expect the economy to thrive and competencies to develop. This is the single biggest reason why India, in spite of rampant corruption, has been able to develop and grow economically. If the Indian military interfered in their politics like Pakistani military, their economy would have been in the state as ours.

If our military stops interfering in our politics and we overcome our obsession with corruption and focus on building competencies, it will be only be a matter of 2-3 decades before we see considerable improvement and progress.

 

[Mamoon]

Forget theory, talk practically- we had 10 years of corrupt and incompetent govt before IK, So let's see what the empirical evidence is to support your views as far as PK is concerned. Let's talk about a sustainable economy, justice, education, health, environment etc. Can you tell us what great competence we saw from these Corrupt people you rate so highly?

I have literally stated multiple times that the previous government were incompetent and that is why we are in this state today. There are of course reasons for why they were not able to develop competencies, but their failures were because of their incompetence and not corruption. We ned to set our priorities straight - crying about corruption is not the solution to our woes.

 

[WebGuru]

I have literally stated multiple times that the previous government were incompetent and that is why we are in this state today. There are of course reasons for why they were not able to develop competencies, but their failures were because of their incompetence and not corruption. We ned to set our priorities straight - crying about corruption is not the solution to our woes.

Mamoon the problem is they were corrupt and incompetent and they are the only 2 other options available in market if PTI isn't there so enlighten us how exactly they are going to fix the issues if we remove the incompetent PTI from political scene

 

[Bewal Express]

I have literally stated multiple times that the previous government were incompetent and that is why we are in this state today. There are of course reasons for why they were not able to develop competencies, but their failures were because of their incompetence and not corruption. We ned to set our priorities straight - crying about corruption is not the solution to our woes.

No you haven't, you have stated on many occasions that they were competent. So your lying.

 

[cric_man]

There are no such examples in Pakistan.

So why do you keep harping about it? We are not going to import corrupt yet competent from Mars are we.

 

[Bewal Express]

So why do you keep harping about it? We are not going to import corrupt yet competent from Mars are we.

So his new narrative is that the Nooras and PPP are Corrupt and incompetent. This is a humiliation and climb down.

 

[WebGuru]

So his new narrative is that the Nooras and PPP are Corrupt and incompetent. This is a humiliation and climb down.

My only question is what's the solution thn? Remove the evil PTI and IK from picture so we are back to PMLN and PPP who created all this mess now tell us how exactly they are going to clean it?

 

[Technics 1210]

I pay my taxes, but since I cannot prove it to you or anyone else here, you can happily believe that I don't. However, I have written in great length about the problem of tax evasion, and why the argument that people shouldn't pay taxes because the government is corrupt is wrong. Not paying taxes is our contribution to making our economy worse.

Even the most corrupt government in the world is going to spend money on roads, healthcare, education, infrastructure, defense etc. etc.

Let's assume that our corrupt government puts 80% of the tax money in their pockets and spends only 20% on the country. In reality, they certainly spend more than 20% on the country, but for the sake of discussion, let's assume these arbitrary numbers.

Now if our people decide that they are not going to pay taxes because our corrupt government spends only 20% of the tax money on the country, what do you think will happen?

The government will end up spending even less on the country because the total tax money collected is going to be less.

For example, if the Federal Board of Revenue collected PKR 2 billion in Year 1, the government is going to pocket 1.6 billion, and spend 0.4 billion on the country.

In Year 2, let's assume that half of the people decide that since the government is corrupt, they are not going to pay their taxes.

Hence, the Federal Board of Revenue will now collect PKR 1 billion instead of 2 billion. As a result, the government is going to pocket PKR 0.8 billion and will spend only 0.2 billion on the country, which is half of what they did in Year 1.

Therefore, by refusing to pay taxes because of the corrupt government, people are actually making things worse and doing further damage to the country.

The corruption of the government is not an excuse for tax evasion; it is the duty of every eligible citizen in the country to pay his/her taxes, and if every citizen in Pakistan fully pays his or her taxes, there will definitely be progress in the country regardless of how corrupt the government is.

Well Mamoon, I take back everything I have said – you have removed all doubt in my mind with this little beauty pseudo-intelligence post of yours which confirms what I have been thinking all along – you are an intellectual fraud.

The problem with your super-duper insight above is that you start with the premises that paying taxes is a choice – see bold emphasis. This is where you are not only woefully wrong but expose yourself.

Paying tax is not a choice, never was, and should never be. Taxes are mandatory for any government, corrupt or not, but the fact you believe it is a choice only serves to proves that only do you support corruption, but you see no reason to pay your taxes now.

 

[The_Odd_One]

Sethi is a prime example of corrupt but extremely competent individual who had a much better tenure than most in PCB.

 

[someone21]

Corruption is all about efficiency. In developed countries, there is “efficient “ corruption, where even when there is corruption, the tasks are completed well and timely. Whereas in our countries, there is “inefficient “ corruption, so even after bribes, we find the tasks isnt up to standard or keeps getting delayed.

The initial target is not to end corruption, thats impossible. But the target is to make corruption “efficient” so competence, professionism is key

 

[Manager101]

End times are here. People finding ways to give corruption a leverage.

 

[from_da_lost_dim3nsion]

Calling out Saudis like that ! .There goes any chance of him EVER holding a powerful govt position in Pakistan lmao !!

 

[sjahmed23]

I don't disagree with Mian's conclusion, but not really sure what is the point Mamoon is attempting to derive from it. Under previous administrations we had corruption and incompetence, now that we are attacking corruption, then the idea would be it would create an atmosphere where competence and meritocracy can be encouraged.

Spot on. Nawaz Sharif needs a paper to talk in front of Obama and even then he mixes up mr and misses Obama. Less said about competence here the better. The problem with Pakistan is that the people have been sleeping for the last 40 years, there is no shaoor. Countries like China know what its like to feel hungry and they simply want it more so they select the best, whereas we select people based on ethnicity and relationship. Aka Ishaq Dar.

 

[zn426]

A couple of points to note about corruption and competence.

Corruption is primarily driven by self-interest. Self-interest on its own is a motive for success and in the private sector, this can result in highly successful businesses and institutions. You can observe this in places such as the US and Singapore, which are in general highly entrepreneurial, with limited government (although this is becoming less so in the US) and a clear reward for success-high profits and personal enjoyment of life.
The problem with government corruption is that it can directly impact the same businesses who are funding that same government. I've only heard rumors, but am I correct in saying Nawaz Sharif and PML-N forced the sale of many successful Pakistani businesses to the Sharifs using the government bully pulpit? If you take away the reward for success, who will want to go into business? Who will want to produce? Your private sector generates the profits and cash flow that enable the government to survive.

Competence in government is a highly subjective term. What is the goal of the government? Is it genuine? The PML-N and PPP were highly competent-at looting the country. Does Imran Khan have a goal that will help the country? He is out to produce an honest government. Based on my reading of the situation, he wants to restore the honesty as a competent function of the government. No government can be perfectly competent, but one that does not penalize private citizens for success would be a very good start. In many cases competence is a numbers game. India and China are huge countries with large populations. If only 1% of their people become the highly affluent and successful top group, that group is substantially larger than any group in any other country. Their group of competent middle and upper class people will also be substantially larger, and that gives them the room to slowly bring the rest of their population up to speed. It also means that foreign countries such as the US, Japan, and most of the European Union will make it a priority to engage these countries because they know that any investment they make in India or China is much more likely to be successful-the risk coefficient is lower.
Compare that with a country like Pakistan. 200 million people isn't a small number by any means, but the country has to do a lot more heavy lifting to achieve a same or similar base of competent people that China and Japan have. It also means that a corrupt government will have an out sized effect on the bottom of society, as there aren't enough successful private sector people at the top to lift them up. You're also less likely to get investments-CPEC was a fortunate thing that needs to be leveraged, and best I can see, under IK Pakistan is going to leverage this relationship fully. We need to export a lot to China. We need to make them our primary market place. In America is relatively easier to become wealthy because most everyone will be able to pay for your goods or services (this is compared to other countries). If Pakistan wants to produce a strong economy, they would do well to export all they can to China and to other countries as opportunities avail themselves. CPEC isn't just a fortunate thing-it is literally Pakistan's #1 hope of ever becoming an economic competitor against the likes of India, Japan, or South Korea.

 

[SensiblePakFan]

China is run by a dictator, a system that Atif Mian mentions can never work in a democracy.

 

[warcry]

China is run by a dictator, a system that Atif Mian mentions can never work in a democracy.

then let democracy go to hell.
I would rather have the country run by a competent dictator than an incompetent parliament.

 

[Mamoon]

Well Mamoon, I take back everything I have said – you have removed all doubt in my mind with this little beauty pseudo-intelligence post of yours which confirms what I have been thinking all along – you are an intellectual fraud.

The problem with your super-duper insight above is that you start with the premises that paying taxes is a choice – see bold emphasis. This is where you are not only woefully wrong but expose yourself.

Paying tax is not a choice, never was, and should never be. Taxes are mandatory for any government, corrupt or not, but the fact you believe it is a choice only serves to proves that only do you support corruption, but you see no reason to pay your taxes now.

Before you embark on your usual ad hominem which you use to derail every discourse because of your intellectual limitations, it would perhaps be better if you understand the gist of the argument first.

While paying taxes is not an option, the fact is that tax evasion is a massive problem for Pakistan and many people simply refuse to pay taxes. Their usual justification is that since the government is corrupt and will put a good chunk of our money in their pockets instead of spending on development, we do not believe in paying our taxes.

In other words, we will pay taxes only when we trust the government. My post proved the fallacy in their argument because tax evasion only only contributes to economic regression. We need to boost our tax to GDP ratio which currently stands at 11%, and barring a few outliers/exceptions, there appears to be a strong correlation between high tax to GDP ratio and economic development.

Now that I have clarified my post (which did not need any clarification in the first place but I obliged out of the goodness of my heart anyway) you can resume your ad hominem and continue to call me a fraud or whatever. The stage is yours.

 

[Bewal Express]

My only question is what's the solution thn? Remove the evil PTI and IK from picture so we are back to PMLN and PPP who created all this mess now tell us how exactly they are going to clean it?

By the end I was so confused as to what he is arguing for, I don't think he knows what he thinks or writes. It's seems a hotch potch of confused narrative with nothing other than Corruption is good and we need more of it.

 

[Mamoon]

So why do you keep harping about it? We are not going to import corrupt yet competent from Mars are we.

Competency cannot be developed overnight, but what we need is a shift in our mindset and our priorities. As a nation, we need to focus more on the flop policies of the previous governments that have failed to achieve economic growth, instead of emphasizing on their corruption.

We have developed this belief that as long as there is corruption in Pakistan, we will not manage any development. That is strictly not true, because competency and corruption can most certainly co-exist. This isn't an attempt to justify corruption, but to explain why eliminating corruption is not a bigger priority than achieving competency.

Our accountability needs to be performance-based and not honesty-based. For a start, Article 62 (1), i.e. a person who is not honest and truthful (and in line with Islamic principles) shall be disqualified from the parliament needs to be revoked. It was added by Zia-ul-Haq and perfectly illustrates are misplaced priorities.

An honest, truthful as well as a good Muslim will serve no purpose unless and until he or she is competent.

If we are successful in prioritising our core issues and are able to shift our mindset, it won't be long before we are able to produce corrupt politicians who will also be competent, and they will drive our economy forward.

Once we reach the level of a country like India in terms of economic growth, we can then perhaps attempt to tackle corruption while maintaining our competency, because the ultimate goal is to maximise competency and minimise corruption.

However, considering the state Pakistan is in, it is too early for us to focus on how to minimise corruption because even if we succeed in doing so, it will ultimately serve no purpose because we are severely lacking in competency.

 

[Angrez Pakistani]

Before you embark on your usual ad hominem which you use to derail every discourse because of your intellectual limitations, it would perhaps be better if you understand the gist of the argument first.

While paying taxes is not an option, the fact is that tax evasion is a massive problem for Pakistan and many people simply refuse to pay taxes. Their usual justification is that since the government is corrupt and will put a good chunk of our money in their pockets instead of spending on development, we do not believe in paying our taxes.

In other words, we will pay taxes only when we trust the government. My post proved the fallacy in their argument because tax evasion only only contributes to economic regression. We need to boost our tax to GDP ratio which currently stands at 11%, and barring a few outliers/exceptions, there appears to be a strong correlation between high tax to GDP ratio and economic development.

Now that I have clarified my post (which did not need any clarification in the first place but I obliged out of the goodness of my heart anyway) you can resume your ad hominem and continue to call me a fraud or whatever. The stage is yours.

Pakistanis simply don't want to pay taxes. Other stuff is just their pathetic attempt at rationalizing their own criminality. Just look at oversees Pakistanis avoiding taxes in their business by not paying their workers minimum wage or even pay slips because payslips mean more taxes. Tax avoidance is in the DNA of Pakistanis.

 

[Mamoon]

[MENTION=133397]WebGuru[/MENTION] [MENTION=1269]Bewal Express[/MENTION]

As a result of military interference and our misplaced priorities, there is no short-term solution to reverse our stunted economic growth. Simply swapping between PTI, PMLN and PPP will not change anything because they are all incompetent. What Pakistan needs is an ideological shift that will bear its fruit in 3-4 decades from now. Here are my 6 pointers:

(1) The military - under no circumstances - will interfere in politics either directly or indirectly. They will not support any party and neither will they use their influence and power to entice people to vote for a particular party. In addition, they will not influence the judiciary either. They will restrict themselves to their primary role, i.e. defending the borders. They will also not influence Pakistan's foreign policy to serve their own needs.

Furthermore, they will not run businesses within the country and neither will retired military officers serve in non-military institutions. No retired majors, colonels, brigadiers and Lt. Generals etc. will serve in organisations like WAPDA, PTCL, PCB, PTV etc. It is simply not their domain.

(2) The government, whoever is in power, will focus on the mistakes of the past government instead of highlighting their corruption. For example, PTI government should emphasise on the failed policies of PPP and PMLN that have led Pakistan to where it is today instead of talking about how much they have stolen. Our current state is the result of their incompetency not corruption.

(3) Article 62 (1), i.e. a person who is not honest and truthful (and in line with Islamic principles) shall be disqualified from the parliament needs to be revoked immediately. It sets a very wrong precedence and has tremendous potential for misuse. If it is applied without bias, not a single politician will be able to survive. Accountability needs to be performance and competency-based and not honesty-based.

(4) The accountability should be driven by performance and competency rather than corruption at the bureaucratic level as well. It is a fact that 99.99% of our bureaucracy is corrupt. Finding a civil servant who is not corrupt or has not done corruption in his or her time of service is nearly impossible. Since our civil servants are paid very less compared to private sector employees, even the most competent and hardworking civil servants have filled their pockets with illegal means.

By providing them with the security that they will be judged and evaluated on their performance and not corruption, they will be motivated to enhance their performance and dedication. When performance is the number one criteria for accountability, competency will automatically develop in due time.

(5) At an individual level, the people of Pakistan also need to change their mentality. Making changes at the government and constitutional level will serve no purpose if the public doesn't change its perception. People need to understand that incompetency is a bigger problem than corruption. Very rarely would you see people discuss the policies of PMLN and PPP and why they didn't work because most of the time they are preoccupied with their corruption.

Moreover, people need to overcome the mentality that tax evasion is justified if the government is corrupt. Pakistan has a low Tax to GDP ratio which has a strong correlation with economic regression. By avoiding taxes, people are directly contributing to economic failure.

(6) NAB needs to be dissolved with immediate effect. Contrary to what it claims, it is very selective in its accountability and is not impartial by any means. It is simply a tool for political witch-hunting. If the above 5 points are implemented, the existence of NAB will be counterproductive.

People might argue that it will only boost corruption, but my argument is that when the country is focused on competency and high-performance, corruption will never reach a level where performance will be compromised.

Again, I must point to India. In spite of heavy corruption, they have achieved economic development because they have focused on competency, which has ensured that their corruption does not go beyond a certain limit where it will stand in the way of their competency. Dissolving NAB will not boost corruption. In fact, I would argue that in the long-run, it will help reduce it.

These are my 6 pointers for the development of Pakistan and the direction this country needs to head if it is to achieve economic development and growth. The chances of the implementation of these points are obviously nil, but these are my suggestions and my solution for the long-term prosperity of Pakistan.

 

[Bewal Express]

[MENTION=133397]WebGuru[/MENTION] [MENTION=1269]Bewal Express[/MENTION]

As a result of military interference and our misplaced priorities, there is no short-term solution to reverse our stunted economic growth. Simply swapping between PTI, PMLN and PPP will not change anything because they are all incompetent. What Pakistan needs is an ideological shift that will bear its fruit in 3-4 decades from now. Here are my 6 pointers:

(1) The military - under no circumstances - will interfere in politics either directly or indirectly. They will not support any party and neither will they use their influence and power to entice people to vote for a particular party. In addition, they will not influence the judiciary either. They will restrict themselves to their primary role, i.e. defending the borders. They will also not influence Pakistan's foreign policy to serve their own needs.

Furthermore, they will not run businesses within the country and neither will retired military officers serve in non-military institutions. No retired majors, colonels, brigadiers and Lt. Generals etc. will serve in organisations like WAPDA, PTCL, PCB, PTV etc. It is simply not their domain.

(2) The government, whoever is in power, will focus on the mistakes of the past government instead of highlighting their corruption. For example, PTI government should emphasise on the failed policies of PPP and PMLN that have led Pakistan to where it is today instead of talking about how much they have stolen. Our current state is the result of their incompetency not corruption.

(3) Article 62 (1), i.e. a person who is not honest and truthful (and in line with Islamic principles) shall be disqualified from the parliament needs to be revoked immediately. It sets a very wrong precedence and has tremendous potential for misuse. If it is applied without bias, not a single politician will be able to survive. Accountability needs to be performance and competency-based and not honesty-based.

(4) The accountability should be driven by performance and competency rather than corruption at the bureaucratic level as well. It is a fact that 99.99% of our bureaucracy is corrupt. Finding a civil servant who is not corrupt or has not done corruption in his or her time of service is nearly impossible. Since our civil servants are paid very less compared to private sector employees, even the most competent and hardworking civil servants have filled their pockets with illegal means.

By providing them with the security that they will be judged and evaluated on their performance and not corruption, they will be motivated to enhance their performance and dedication. When performance is the number one criteria for accountability, competency will automatically develop in due time.

(5) At an individual level, the people of Pakistan also need to change their mentality. Making changes at the government and constitutional level will serve no purpose if the public doesn't change its perception. People need to understand that incompetency is a bigger problem than corruption. Very rarely would you see people discuss the policies of PMLN and PPP and why they didn't work because most of the time they are preoccupied with their corruption.

Moreover, people need to overcome the mentality that tax evasion is justified if the government is corrupt. Pakistan has a low Tax to GDP ratio which has a strong correlation with economic regression. By avoiding taxes, people are directly contributing to economic failure.

(6) NAB needs to be dissolved with immediate effect. Contrary to what it claims, it is very selective in its accountability and is not impartial by any means. It is simply a tool for political witch-hunting. If the above 5 points are implemented, the existence of NAB will be counterproductive.

People might argue that it will only boost corruption, but my argument is that when the country is focused on competency and high-performance, corruption will never reach a level where performance will be compromised.

Again, I must point to India. In spite of heavy corruption, they have achieved economic development because they have focused on competency, which has ensured that their corruption does not go beyond a certain limit where it will stand in the way of their competency. Dissolving NAB will not boost corruption. In fact, I would argue that in the long-run, it will help reduce it.

These are my 6 pointers for the development of Pakistan and the direction this country needs to head if it is to achieve economic development and growth. The chances of the implementation of these points are obviously nil, but these are my suggestions and my solution for the long-term prosperity of Pakistan.

Oh no, that is long. You must have a lot of spare time. I haven't read it all but I bet somewhere it will say that Corruption is halal, and dishonest people are good and need to be elected.

 

[sshakir411]

Atif Mian is one of the leading economists in the world, a professor at Princetown and has a PhD in economics. Imran Khan is a cricketer turned politician, who probably hasn't even studied economics at university.

Atif Mian's word on economic development is a billion times more credible than Imran Khan and their supporters, just like Imran Khan's word on cricket is a billion times more credible than Atif Mian's.

Let’s not for get Jack Ma was a drop out and from a very poor background. Atif Mian is a very credible and intelligent person but let’s not try to portray Imran as someone pushing for incompetence over corruption.

 

[DRsohail]

Excellent thread by [MENTION=131701]Mamoon[/MENTION].

Waging a lone battle against an army who naively think corruption is the biggest issue.

Look at the data and it's hardly the case.

Competence + Corruption >>> Incompetence + Honesty

By the way, one question.....how do you know for sure PTI is honest?

Running a party costs a LOT of money.

Where will the money come from?

Does Pakistani parties disclose all sources of its donation?

It's a massive problem in the SC.

But who says PTI are incompetent????

 

[DRsohail]

bhai sahb na corrruption ko acha sabit karnay ka formula batayaa....

 

[gazza619]

Bring him on board again!

 

[SensiblePakFan]

then let democracy go to hell.
I would rather have the country run by a competent dictator than an incompetent parliament.

Fair enough, honestly it would work better.

 

[SensiblePakFan]

I think its pretty clear at this point that democracy does not work on mainland asia, the proof is in the pudding.

 

[Technics 1210]

Before you embark on your usual ad hominem which you use to derail every discourse because of your intellectual limitations, it would perhaps be better if you understand the gist of the argument first.

While paying taxes is not an option, the fact is that tax evasion is a massive problem for Pakistan and many people simply refuse to pay taxes. Their usual justification is that since the government is corrupt and will put a good chunk of our money in their pockets instead of spending on development, we do not believe in paying our taxes.

In other words, we will pay taxes only when we trust the government. My post proved the fallacy in their argument because tax evasion only only contributes to economic regression. We need to boost our tax to GDP ratio which currently stands at 11%, and barring a few outliers/exceptions, there appears to be a strong correlation between high tax to GDP ratio and economic development.

Now that I have clarified my post (which did not need any clarification in the first place but I obliged out of the goodness of my heart anyway) you can resume your ad hominem and continue to call me a fraud or whatever. The stage is yours.

You certainly have clarified your point. So you will only pay taxes when you trust the government, as per bold emphasis, and since you claim to be paying taxes (as you claimed above), it means you trust the PTI government.

Well done.

Don't cry ad-hominem when you are losing an argument all by yourself.

Do you ever tire of exposing yourself?

 

[Bewal Express]

But who says PTI are incompetent????

It's a narrative that he is desperate for people to unconsciously​ accept as fact. He's gone from NS-AZ were competent to, today they are corrupt and incompetent but Corrupt people are good people. I am just confused and it's beyond my intelligence as to what he wants other than dishonest and criminal.

 

[Major]

SO does this mean that the best party in Pakistan is PPP

Corrupt yes, but also the most competent

 

[gazza619]

SO does this mean that the best party in Pakistan is PPP

Corrupt yes, but also the most competent

Do you really think they are competent?

 

[WebGuru]

SO does this mean that the best party in Pakistan is PPP

Corrupt yes, but also the most competent

Nope this means the best setup in Pakistan is dictatorship. Corrupt yes but competent also with the help of technocrats proved during Ayub and Mush times. Remember this whole idea is built around Chinese/Saudi model if you read the tweets carefully... Democracy is nowhere to be found in it...

 

[Technics 1210]

Secondary summary in light of new information.

The OP supports corruption, but pays his taxes to a government which is not corrupt, yet finds incompetent, but trustworthy.

You couldn't make this up.

 

[Bewal Express]

Secondary summary in light of new information.

The OP supports corruption, but pays his taxes to a government which is not corrupt, yet finds incompetent, but trustworthy.

You couldn't make this up.

It's like a a schizophrenic whose stopped taking his tablets

 

[Bewal Express]

SO does this mean that the best party in Pakistan is PPP

Corrupt yes, but also the most competent

Competent in what sense, the PPP rule in the 80's,90's and 000's was incompetent as well as Corrupt.

 

[Bewal Express]

Nope this means the best setup in Pakistan is dictatorship. Corrupt yes but competent also with the help of technocrats proved during Ayub and Mush times. Remember this whole idea is built around Chinese/Saudi model if you read the tweets carefully... Democracy is nowhere to be found in it...

It's a shame that Mush got greedy. It was a great chance to change things for the betterment of the country but his betrayal of PK with the NRO has led directly to the crisis we face today.

 

[Technics 1210]

It's like a a schizophrenic whose stopped taking his tablets

He projects an image by perpetrated by compensation psychology, substantiated by lies, exposing himself many times, to the magnitude he makes Zaradari/Shareef/Modi/Trump - look like a summer picnic.

As they say, the easiest thing to remember is the truth, but with him, to protect a lie, he has to speak many lies.

 

[topspin]

SO does this mean that the best party in Pakistan is PPP

Corrupt yes, but also the most competent

As competent as Misbah's ODI batting featuring a grand total of zero tons