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"Incompetence is a bigger constraint than corruption" : Atif Mian

Pakistanis simply don't want to pay taxes. Other stuff is just their pathetic attempt at rationalizing their own criminality. Just look at oversees Pakistanis avoiding taxes in their business by not paying their workers minimum wage or even pay slips because payslips mean more taxes. Tax avoidance is in the DNA of Pakistanis.

Nobody wants to pay taxes other than those few philanthropists who have so many assets they don't know what to do with the surplus millions. Why do you think the super rich non-Pakistanis hide their money in off-shore tax havens? Google and Amazon avoid paying taxes in Angrez Britain, are you going to put that down to their Pakistani DNA?
 
He projects an image by perpetrated by compensation psychology, substantiated by lies, exposing himself many times, to the magnitude he makes Zaradari/Shareef/Modi/Trump - look like a summer picnic.

As they say, the easiest thing to remember is the truth, but with him, to protect a lie, he has to speak many lies.

In his desire to celebrate a bad day for IK and the PTI, he's ended up looking like a guy whose more confused than a baby in topless bar.
 
It's like a a schizophrenic whose stopped taking his tablets

I have stopped debating with this guy. I work for one of the biggest online retailer/tech giant, a few weeks back a VP and along with of his team were fired because he failed to stop a newly hired team member who shared her previous company's (a competitor) price lists and how they priced their products. Nobody outside of that conference room and known about it, the VP had not asked her to share the data but didn't stop her either. Remainder of the people in the room failed to report it. And he was super smart and very very competent!
 
Nobody wants to pay taxes other than those few philanthropists who have so many assets they don't know what to do with the surplus millions. Why do you think the super rich non-Pakistanis hide their money in off-shore tax havens? Google and Amazon avoid paying taxes in Angrez Britain, are you going to put that down to their Pakistani DNA?

Its not unique to Pakistanis, but in the context of Pakistan tax avoidance and its rationalization is relatively prevalent.
 
I think its pretty clear at this point that democracy does not work on mainland asia, the proof is in the pudding.

It works. It's just that results are slow.

50 to 75 years from now... India and (hopefully) Pakistan will be very prosperous.

Alternatives are scary.

Today China is ruling the roost but there may come a point when all hell might break loose in there.

You can't keep a billion people under your control and limit their exposure in this era. Sooner or later, something will give imho.

Chinese are carrying out a genocide while the world helplessly watches. Neither can their citizens raise their voice nor can anyone else.

This is just not sustainable.

History shows us that empires no matter how vast will collapse when resentment grows to a point of no return.
 
I have stopped debating with this guy. I work for one of the biggest online retailer/tech giant, a few weeks back a VP and along with of his team were fired because he failed to stop a newly hired team member who shared her previous company's (a competitor) price lists and how they priced their products. Nobody outside of that conference room and known about it, the VP had not asked her to share the data but didn't stop her either. Remainder of the people in the room failed to report it. And he was super smart and very very competent!

Surely you can see the error in your comparison.

Think it over.
 
Let’s get this straight.

In the rest of the world, corruption isn’t tolerated but, in Pakistan we should pick between competent and corruption and not thrive to end corruption because we supposedly had competent government official who got us overly paid busses?

What PPP and PML- N was competent about other than making highways, yellow cab, making new roads, inflating dollars and filling their own pockets?
 
It works. It's just that results are slow.

50 to 75 years from now... India and (hopefully) Pakistan will be very prosperous.

Alternatives are scary.

Today China is ruling the roost but there may come a point when all hell might break loose in there.

You can't keep a billion people under your control and limit their exposure in this era. Sooner or later, something will give imho.

Chinese are carrying out a genocide while the world helplessly watches. Neither can their citizens raise their voice nor can anyone else.

This is just not sustainable.

History shows us that empires no matter how vast will collapse when resentment grows to a point of no return.

Lol.

Every super power has carried out genocide and will continue to.

I just find it hilarious that people believe if their kind (their nationalists nation) were to become super power then suddenly genocide will stop by the most powerful?

Height of naivety just because it makes one feel better when typing it out.
 
War against corruption is like war against terror. You can fight on and on with no end in sight because neither terror nor corruption can ever be totally eliminated from the society. However, this should not mean we give up. We can fight both corruption and incompetence at the same time. We are not doing that at the moment and I suppose that's the whole point of Atif Mian's thread on Twitter.
 
You certainly have clarified your point. So you will only pay taxes when you trust the government, as per bold emphasis, and since you claim to be paying taxes (as you claimed above), it means you trust the PTI government.

Well done.

Don't cry ad-hominem when you are losing an argument all by yourself.

Do you ever tire of exposing yourself?

Secondary summary in light of new information.

The OP supports corruption, but pays his taxes to a government which is not corrupt, yet finds incompetent, but trustworthy.

You couldn't make this up.

As usual, you have deliberately misinterpreted a statement to take an argument to a different sphere, because I don't think that your comprehension is actually poor. However, if that really is the case, we have a serious problem here.

Let me go over it again:

The statement that "In other words, we will pay taxes only when we trust the government" is NOT my opinion, it is the justification that people give for not paying taxes.

Read the second para again and hopefully you will be able to understand. I will quote it here:

While paying taxes is not an option, the fact is that tax evasion is a massive problem for Pakistan and many people simply refuse to pay taxes. Their usual justification is that since the government is corrupt and will put a good chunk of our money in their pockets instead of spending on development, we do not believe in paying our taxes.

In other words, we will pay taxes only when we trust the government.

Perhaps my decision to add that line to the third para instead of the second caused the confusion. I shouldn't have overestimated your comprehension skills.

In my opinion, there is never any justification for not paying taxes. It doesn't matter if you find the government corrupt, incompetent or untrustworthy. Paying taxes is an obligation that is independent of all these factors.

By not paying taxes, you are directly contributing to economic downfall regardless of how the government is.
[MENTION=1269]Bewal Express[/MENTION] Perhaps this will also be of help to you, seeing that your comprehension has failed you as well which is clearly worrying for a teacher.
 
Nobody wants to pay taxes other than those few philanthropists who have so many assets they don't know what to do with the surplus millions. Why do you think the super rich non-Pakistanis hide their money in off-shore tax havens? Google and Amazon avoid paying taxes in Angrez Britain, are you going to put that down to their Pakistani DNA?

It is the justification for not paying taxes. The super-non rich Pakistanis who don't pay taxes do not justify themselves because the government is corrupt, incompetent or dishonest, and that they will pay their taxes only when they trust the government. They don't pay taxes simply because they are greedy and don't want their share of money to be used for social welfare. These people lie about tax evasion and will never admit to it until they get caught.

In Pakistan, people evade taxes and then acknowledge without any shame or guilt, because they have somehow convinced themselves that as long as the government is not honest, they are not obligated to pay their taxes.
 
As usual, you have deliberately misinterpreted a statement to take an argument to a different sphere, because I don't think that your comprehension is actually poor. However, if that really is the case, we have a serious problem here.

Let me go over it again:

The statement that "In other words, we will pay taxes only when we trust the government" is NOT my opinion, it is the justification that people give for not paying taxes.

Read the second para again and hopefully you will be able to understand. I will quote it here:



Perhaps my decision to add that line to the third para instead of the second caused the confusion. I shouldn't have overestimated your comprehension skills.

In my opinion, there is never any justification for not paying taxes. It doesn't matter if you find the government corrupt, incompetent or untrustworthy. Paying taxes is an obligation that is independent of all these factors.

By not paying taxes, you are directly contributing to economic downfall regardless of how the government is.

[MENTION=1269]Bewal Express[/MENTION] Perhaps this will also be of help to you, seeing that your comprehension has failed you as well which is clearly worrying for a teacher.

My comprehension has failed me, it's your constant lies and confusion that would do a 5 year proud. The best one is that after spending ages claiming that Nooras were competent, yesterday they became incompetent and Corrupt.
 
Let me go over it again:

The statement that "In other words, we will pay taxes only when we trust the government" is NOT my opinion, it is the justification that people give for not paying taxes.

It's the justification for not paying taxes?

But YOU DO pay taxes - allow me to remind you :

I pay my taxes, but since I cannot prove it to you or anyone else here, you can happily believe that I don't. However, I have written in great length about the problem of tax evasion, and why the argument that people shouldn't pay taxes because the government is corrupt is wrong. Not paying taxes is our contribution to making our economy worse.

You clearly then do not represent the opinion of the people based on your word salad above.

Why do you pay taxes then? Is it because you think the government is not corrupt? Or because the government can be trusted?

Which is it?
 
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It is the justification for not paying taxes. The super-non rich Pakistanis who don't pay taxes do not justify themselves because the government is corrupt, incompetent or dishonest, and that they will pay their taxes only when they trust the government. They don't pay taxes simply because they are greedy and don't want their share of money to be used for social welfare. These people lie about tax evasion and will never admit to it until they get caught.

In Pakistan, people evade taxes and then acknowledge without any shame or guilt, because they have somehow convinced themselves that as long as the government is not honest, they are not obligated to pay their taxes.

To be fair, they have a point. In the UK none of us likes paying tax, but we don't really have much choice in the matter, if we try to cheat the system it will cost twice as much when fines are added to the money owed.

But at least we know our money is going towards making the country better, if I was a Pakistani I would be resentful if I was paying taxes while the likes of Nawaz and Zardari were leeching that money and buying up property abroad for themselves.

I think you have actually defeated your own argument here.
 
It's the justification for not paying taxes?

But YOU DO pay taxes - allow me to remind you :



You clearly then do not represent the opinion of the people based on your word salad above.

Why do you pay taxes then? Is it because you think the government is not corrupt? Or because the government can be trusted?

Which is it?

I'm not sure why you are still confused. Perhaps if I condense my argument into bullet points you will finally be able to comprehend.

- I believe that people should pay their taxes irrespective of what they think about the government. It doesn't matter if they don't trust the government or if they think that it is corrupt or incompetent - by not paying taxes, people are directly contributing to economic regression. That is why I pay my taxes.

- people who don't pay taxes in Pakistan justify their decision by stating that since the government is corrupt and does not utilise the tax revenue properly, we are justified in not giving them our hard earned money. Once again, that is not my opinion - it is the excuse that people give for not paying taxes.

In cannot break this down in a simpler manner. I really don't understand why you are so confused unless it is a deliberate tactic.
 
To be fair, they have a point. In the UK none of us likes paying tax, but we don't really have much choice in the matter, if we try to cheat the system it will cost twice as much when fines are added to the money owed.

But at least we know our money is going towards making the country better, if I was a Pakistani I would be resentful if I was paying taxes while the likes of Nawaz and Zardari were leeching that money and buying up property abroad for themselves.

I think you have actually defeated your own argument here.


There is never a justification for not paying taxes because the government is corrupt and you don't trust them. No matter how corrupt a government is, they are not going to put 100% of the tax revenue in their pockets, and will spend at least pump some portion in the economy.

My following argument proves exactly why tax evasion is unjustifiable and contributes to economic regression. In fact, one method of minimising the impact of corruption is to increase the tax to GDP ratio.

Even the most corrupt government in the world is going to spend money on roads, healthcare, education, infrastructure, defense etc. etc.

Let's assume that our corrupt government puts 80% of the tax money in their pockets and spends only 20% on the country. In reality, they certainly spend more than 20% on the country, but for the sake of discussion, let's assume these arbitrary numbers.

Now if our people decide that they are not going to pay taxes because our corrupt government spends only 20% of the tax money on the country, what do you think will happen?

The government will end up spending even less on the country because the total tax money collected is going to be less.

For example, if the Federal Board of Revenue collected PKR 2 billion in Year 1, the government is going to pocket 1.6 billion, and spend 0.4 billion on the country.

In Year 2, let's assume that half of the people decide that since the government is corrupt, they are not going to pay their taxes.

Hence, the Federal Board of Revenue will now collect PKR 1 billion instead of 2 billion. As a result, the government is going to pocket PKR 0.8 billion and will spend only 0.2 billion on the country, which is half of what they did in Year 1.

Therefore, by refusing to pay taxes because of the corrupt government, people are actually making things worse and doing further damage to the country.

The corruption of the government is not an excuse for tax evasion; it is the duty of every eligible citizen in the country to pay his/her taxes, and if every citizen in Pakistan fully pays his or her taxes, there will definitely be progress in the country regardless of how corrupt the government is.

I am not sure what you mean by defeating my own argument. The above actually proves the opposite.
 
To be fair, they have a point. In the UK none of us likes paying tax, but we don't really have much choice in the matter, if we try to cheat the system it will cost twice as much when fines are added to the money owed.

But at least we know our money is going towards making the country better, if I was a Pakistani I would be resentful if I was paying taxes while the likes of Nawaz and Zardari were leeching that money and buying up property abroad for themselves.

I think you have actually defeated your own argument here.

So you are saying, you don’t like paying taxes but have no choice as the system in UK is competent. In Pakistan, the lack of a competent system let’s you get away without paying taxes. In both cases, your intent remains the same, the presence or lack of a competent system is the only difference.

Think you just bolstered his argument
 
So you are saying, you don’t like paying taxes but have no choice as the system in UK is competent. In Pakistan, the lack of a competent system let’s you get away without paying taxes. In both cases, your intent remains the same, the presence or lack of a competent system is the only difference.

Think you just bolstered his argument

Anyone who tells you they like paying taxes is a liar. Take your bagal mein churi nonsense somewhere else, don't forget, we live with plenty of Indians here so know fine well their mentality.
 
TBH I don’t know much about how IK and how his government has performed in Pakistan.

OT though and just based on the arguments, I agree with Mamoon. India and Bangladesh are both equally corrupt but have managed to develop competence in a few fields. The Pakistani government needs to focus on a few greenfield areas and try to incentivise development in it. When I was following the policies a few years back when NS was in power, Pakistan seemed to lack a clear policy in investment or manufacturing. That needs to change before the economy kicks off.
 
Anyone who tells you they like paying taxes is a liar. Take your bagal mein churi nonsense somewhere else, don't forget, we live with plenty of Indians here so know fine well their mentality.
How about giving a coherent argument? Also as you noted, no one likes paying taxes. A competent system or lack of is the defining factor. How about reading up a bit before getting into arguments?
 
I'm not sure why you are still confused. Perhaps if I condense my argument into bullet points you will finally be able to comprehend.

- I believe that people should pay their taxes irrespective of what they think about the government. It doesn't matter if they don't trust the government or if they think that it is corrupt or incompetent - by not paying taxes, people are directly contributing to economic regression. That is why I pay my taxes.

- people who don't pay taxes in Pakistan justify their decision by stating that since the government is corrupt and does not utilise the tax revenue properly, we are justified in not giving them our hard earned money. Once again, that is not my opinion - it is the excuse that people give for not paying taxes.

In cannot break this down in a simpler manner. I really don't understand why you are so confused unless it is a deliberate tactic.

I asked you a simple question in English, why do you pay taxes?

You’ve been rambling on why Pakistanis do not want to pay taxes because the money goes to a corrupt government, but also claim Pakistanis are willing to pay taxes if they trust a government. Now yo uare again changing your tune.

Again, why do you pay taxes? What category of Pakistani opinion do you fit in?

The only aspect deliberate here are your web of words designed to pull you out a hole.

It’s a simple question, Doctor.
 
Cpt Rishwat is spot on, no one likes paying taxes, in the same way no one likes to die. Heck I don't like to pay licenses, council tax, or insurance, but I have no choice (other than to move to a tax free havens) but I am in full support of income tax and NI contributions. The Tax system in the UK is pretty fair with its tax bands include a tax free band too.

When the same people who do not like paying taxes fall ill or rely on a government service such as State Pension or the NHS, they typically realise the value and purpose of their taxes. It is taxes that pay for public servants and services such as Police Force, Nurses, Firefighters, Ambulance, Infrastructure etc. It is taxes that helps balance the government books.

However what our resident Doctor is saying is that people in Pakistan do not want to pay taxes because the government is corrupt, implying that if the government is not corrupt (PTI) then they have no problem in paying taxes to a trusting government. This is a stark contrast with the UK where people do not want to pay taxes because the government is corrupt, inept, or untrustworthy, it's because they want to save every penny on earned dosh.
 
This is a chicken and egg debate. Corruption affects institutional capacity building which in turn gives way to incompetence. This incompetence hinder the process of check and balance which then leads back to corruption.
 
Gist of the thread is we know Nawaz and Zardari are corrupt so no point defending them on that front, let's argue whether we can support them despite being corrupt. Well bad news is that our other options Nawaz and Zardari are not only corrupt but extremely incompetent as well.

When was the last time anyone heard these crooks Nawaz & Zardari (or Maryam, Hamza, Bilawal for that matter) explaining basic problems Pakistan is facing and what are potential solutions??

Well Imran Khan is one person who has talked for hours and hours about everything from environment, to malnutrition & stunted growth, health reforms, education reforms (current system and associated issues), police reforms, legislative issues, fighting unnecessary wars and it's impacts, social issues etc etc. Imran may not be successful in resolving all these issues but how else would you judge someone's competence?

So please don't hide behind corruption or incompetence argument because option we have had so far were not only corrupt but highly incompetent as well.
 
Gist of the thread is we know Nawaz and Zardari are corrupt so no point defending them on that front, let's argue whether we can support them despite being corrupt. Well bad news is that our other options Nawaz and Zardari are not only corrupt but extremely incompetent as well.

When was the last time anyone heard these crooks Nawaz & Zardari (or Maryam, Hamza, Bilawal for that matter) explaining basic problems Pakistan is facing and what are potential solutions??

Well Imran Khan is one person who has talked for hours and hours about everything from environment, to malnutrition & stunted growth, health reforms, education reforms (current system and associated issues), police reforms, legislative issues, fighting unnecessary wars and it's impacts, social issues etc etc. Imran may not be successful in resolving all these issues but how else would you judge someone's competence?

So please don't hide behind corruption or incompetence argument because option we have had so far were not only corrupt but highly incompetent as well.

Post of the week.
 
This is a chicken and egg debate. Corruption affects institutional capacity building which in turn gives way to incompetence. This incompetence hinder the process of check and balance which then leads back to corruption.

This! how easily people miss the main fact that crooks like NS/Zardari destroy the institutions for their corruption. In India they at least have some check and balance over the crooks while in Pakistan even courts and judges are sold and when they finally wake up and give up decision against these crooks they are labeled as judges on GHQ payroll and everything becomes establishment ki saazish how convenient.
 
Gist of the thread is we know Nawaz and Zardari are corrupt so no point defending them on that front, let's argue whether we can support them despite being corrupt. Well bad news is that our other options Nawaz and Zardari are not only corrupt but extremely incompetent as well.

When was the last time anyone heard these crooks Nawaz & Zardari (or Maryam, Hamza, Bilawal for that matter) explaining basic problems Pakistan is facing and what are potential solutions??

Well Imran Khan is one person who has talked for hours and hours about everything from environment, to malnutrition & stunted growth, health reforms, education reforms (current system and associated issues), police reforms, legislative issues, fighting unnecessary wars and it's impacts, social issues etc etc. Imran may not be successful in resolving all these issues but how else would you judge someone's competence?

So please don't hide behind corruption or incompetence argument because option we have had so far were not only corrupt but highly incompetent as well.

Come on NS knows the ABC of Economics and IK is an idiot!
 
Cpt Rishwat is spot on, no one likes paying taxes, in the same way no one likes to die. Heck I don't like to pay licenses, council tax, or insurance, but I have no choice (other than to move to a tax free havens) but I am in full support of income tax and NI contributions. The Tax system in the UK is pretty fair with its tax bands include a tax free band too.

When the same people who do not like paying taxes fall ill or rely on a government service such as State Pension or the NHS, they typically realise the value and purpose of their taxes. It is taxes that pay for public servants and services such as Police Force, Nurses, Firefighters, Ambulance, Infrastructure etc. It is taxes that helps balance the government books.

However what our resident Doctor is saying is that people in Pakistan do not want to pay taxes because the government is corrupt, implying that if the government is not corrupt (PTI) then they have no problem in paying taxes to a trusting government. This is a stark contrast with the UK where people do not want to pay taxes because the government is corrupt, inept, or untrustworthy, it's because they want to save every penny on earned dosh.

No one likes to pay the taxes, that is correct. But I think you are completely missing his point. His point is that our rich elites tries to justifies their action of not paying taxes by claiming that the regime is corrupt so they don't want pay taxes as they won't get the benefit of it. However, he insists that this mentality is wrong and everyone should pay their taxes as it eventually contributes to the progress of the country. The infrastructure that has been built so far has been build through the taxes paid.

IK used to give this example that Pakistani likes to give a lot of Zakat so they shouldn't have any problem in giving taxes once there is an "honest" government. Unfortunately, this hasn't been the case so far as there hasn't been much increase in the tax net so far.

If IK and his team are able to increase the tax net then it would be a good achievement. Before the elections, Asad Umar/PTI used to say that we have the complete records of the rich people through their foreign travellings, credit card expenditure, big cars etc and we can easily track how much taxes they are paying. They used to cricticize the government of lacking a will and protecting the interests of Mafia by not broadening the tax net. However, it seems that there are hurdles in the execution and it doesn't that straight forward as it seems.
 
No one likes to pay the taxes, that is correct. But I think you are completely missing his point. His point is that our rich elites tries to justifies their action of not paying taxes by claiming that the regime is corrupt so they don't want pay taxes as they won't get the benefit of it. However, he insists that this mentality is wrong and everyone should pay their taxes as it eventually contributes to the progress of the country. The infrastructure that has been built so far has been build through the taxes paid.

I get his point, I asked him, why does he pay taxes given he does not fall into any of the excuses not to pay taxes in Pakistan.

Help him out.
 
This! how easily people miss the main fact that crooks like NS/Zardari destroy the institutions for their corruption. In India they at least have some check and balance over the crooks while in Pakistan even courts and judges are sold and when they finally wake up and give up decision against these crooks they are labeled as judges on GHQ payroll and everything becomes establishment ki saazish how convenient.

It would be a-historical to not suspect the role of GHQ in major political case dispositions by courts. And I get why Atif Mian is referring to incompetence as a bigger issue. Our institutions have been destroyed, they are rendered incapable of identifying and/or measuring the length and breadth of the alleged cases of corruption. So all we are left with are our political biases as navigating devices to judge these situations. In short, its easier to single out incompetence of individuals, institutions and political parties than to rely on the narrative of corruption that is invariably paddled by one party against another.
 
I get his point, I asked him, why does he pay taxes given he does not fall into any of the excuses not to pay taxes in Pakistan.

Help him out.

From what I understood, he believes that taxes should be paid whether you like or not like it, whether the government is corrupt or not, the government is competent or not and consider it is a moral obligation of every citizen to pay the taxes who wants to see his country prosperous and play a positive role in that (by paying the taxes). He can confirm it himself but this is my understanding of his discussions with you.
 
From what I understood, he believes that taxes should be paid whether you like or not like it, whether the government is corrupt or not, the government is competent or not and consider it is a moral obligation of every citizen to pay the taxes who wants to see his country prosperous and play a positive role in that (by paying the taxes). He can confirm it himself but this is my understanding of his discussions with you.

He also said that people in Pakistan don't mind paying taxes if they trust the government, and since his view of PTI is well known, and he pays taxes, I would like to know why he is paying taxes. Ergo, he trusts the PTI government.

I'm sure he will pop along and high five you.
 
It would be a-historical to not suspect the role of GHQ in major political case dispositions by courts. And I get why Atif Mian is referring to incompetence as a bigger issue. Our institutions have been destroyed, they are rendered incapable of identifying and/or measuring the length and breadth of the alleged cases of corruption. So all we are left with are our political biases as navigating devices to judge these situations. In short, its easier to single out incompetence of individuals, institutions and political parties than to rely on the narrative of corruption that is invariably paddled by one party against another.

Anti-corruption works as an electoral strategy (and it should be used) but its not a governance strategy. I would advise most political parties to use it, until the discourse matures.
 
Anti-corruption works as an electoral strategy (and it should be used) but its not a governance strategy. I would advise most political parties to use it, until the discourse matures.

The narrative sells because it is very simplistic. It is similar to Trump's rhetoric of 'build the wall' because the idea is digestible to the masses whereas the issue of immigration is way too complex.
 
No one likes to pay the taxes, that is correct. But I think you are completely missing his point. His point is that our rich elites tries to justifies their action of not paying taxes by claiming that the regime is corrupt so they don't want pay taxes as they won't get the benefit of it. However, he insists that this mentality is wrong and everyone should pay their taxes as it eventually contributes to the progress of the country. The infrastructure that has been built so far has been build through the taxes paid.

IK used to give this example that Pakistani likes to give a lot of Zakat so they shouldn't have any problem in giving taxes once there is an "honest" government. Unfortunately, this hasn't been the case so far as there hasn't been much increase in the tax net so far.

If IK and his team are able to increase the tax net then it would be a good achievement. Before the elections, Asad Umar/PTI used to say that we have the complete records of the rich people through their foreign travellings, credit card expenditure, big cars etc and we can easily track how much taxes they are paying. They used to cricticize the government of lacking a will and protecting the interests of Mafia by not broadening the tax net. However, it seems that there are hurdles in the execution and it doesn't that straight forward as it seems.


Enforcing and implementing tax collection has always been one of the most unpopular govt policies anywhere in the world, this has been the case since the medieval era. You could argue that Pakistan is still stuck in a middle age mentality, hence persuading people they need to part with their money is going to be even more difficult.

As far as I am aware, Imran Khan out of all the politicians has been the one to publicly talk about collecting more tax revenue, it is normally a vote loser so not sure why he is the one being criticised for this.
 
The narrative sells because it is very simplistic. It is similar to Trump's rhetoric of 'build the wall' because the idea is digestible to the masses whereas the issue of immigration is way too complex.

Yes. He won because of widespread social disaffection at a time when the US economy had largely recovered from 2008 at a macro level anyway. Its a narrative that worked in US, India, Turkey, Polandn hungary, Italy etc.
So we should not fault political parties from relying on it. What they do with their mandate will determine whether they deserve to be re-elected or not. Atif Mian's point is very valid and it should be seen in the light of the electoral economics, not politics.
 
I asked you a simple question in English, why do you pay taxes?

Because I believe that it is an obligation regardless of what you think of the government. It doesn’t matter if you like them or not, if you trust them or not, you have to pay your taxes. As simple as that.

I have literally repeated myself a dozen times now.

You’ve been rambling on why Pakistanis do not want to pay taxes because the money goes to a corrupt government, but also claim Pakistanis are willing to pay taxes if they trust a government. Now yo uare again changing your tune.

Yes that is true. People who don’t pay taxes in Pakistan argue that since the government is corrupt, they are justified in not giving them their hard earned money, but if the government is honest, they will be willing to trust them with their money.

What tune would that be?

Again, why do you pay taxes? What category of Pakistani opinion do you fit in?

Once again, I pay taxes because I believe that it is an obligation irrespective of what you think of the government. I think PTI is emphatically incompetent, but I will still pay my taxes because I don’t want to contribute to economic regression.

This is the minority view in Pakistan, which is why tax evasion is a major problem. If everyone in our country starts to think along these lines, there will be no tax evasion.

The only aspect deliberate here are your web of words designed to pull you out a hole.

It’s a simple question, Doctor.

What hole? Anyway, not sure why you are emphasizing on the “doctor” bit. If you regret not becoming a doctor, let me reassure you that it is far from the greatest career in the world.
 
Well, some Pakistanis pay taxses because some embassies require you to show an income tax statement as part of a visa process hence they are eligible to apply for a visa strengthens their visa case , it has got nothing to do with local govt being a corrupt one or a honest one. For Pakistani awam, it is all about self interests. Maybe Mamoon pays his taxes because he is a frequent traveler to western countries.
 
No one likes to pay the taxes, that is correct. But I think you are completely missing his point. His point is that our rich elites tries to justifies their action of not paying taxes by claiming that the regime is corrupt so they don't want pay taxes as they won't get the benefit of it. However, he insists that this mentality is wrong and everyone should pay their taxes as it eventually contributes to the progress of the country. The infrastructure that has been built so far has been build through the taxes paid.

IK used to give this example that Pakistani likes to give a lot of Zakat so they shouldn't have any problem in giving taxes once there is an "honest" government. Unfortunately, this hasn't been the case so far as there hasn't been much increase in the tax net so far.

If IK and his team are able to increase the tax net then it would be a good achievement. Before the elections, Asad Umar/PTI used to say that we have the complete records of the rich people through their foreign travellings, credit card expenditure, big cars etc and we can easily track how much taxes they are paying. They used to cricticize the government of lacking a will and protecting the interests of Mafia by not broadening the tax net. However, it seems that there are hurdles in the execution and it doesn't that straight forward as it seems.

He is not missing the point, he knows exactly what he is doing. It is his usual tactic of prolonging an argument when he doesn’t have a leg to stand on. Unfortunately, I oblige over and over again out of habit.
 
Because I believe that it is an obligation regardless of what you think of the government. It doesn’t matter if you like them or not, if you trust them or not, you have to pay your taxes. As simple as that.

I have literally repeated myself a dozen times now.

Once again, I pay taxes because I believe that it is an obligation irrespective of what you think of the government. I think PTI is emphatically incompetent, but I will still pay my taxes because I don’t want to contribute to economic regression.

This is the minority view in Pakistan, which is why tax evasion is a major problem. If everyone in our country starts to think along these lines, there will be no tax evasion.

Finally! This is all you had to post (and no you did not repeat yourself a dozen times with the answer above).

Instead of spinning yarns, just come straight to the point, it would save so much time!
 
Finally! This is all you had to post (and no you did not repeat yourself a dozen times with the answer above).

Instead of spinning yarns, just come straight to the point, it would save so much time!

My point was clear from the beginning, but it took you around 20 posts to comprehend. Anyway, I am glad you are finally up to speed.
 
My point was clear from the beginning, but it took you around 20 posts to comprehend. Anyway, I am glad you are finally up to speed.

Now why are you unnecessarily prolonging the point?

You are the one at fault, since you cannot speak the truth the first time, get pulled up, and then post word salad trying to conceal the truth.

You have removed all doubt in my mind about you. For the record, I do not believe you pay taxes to a government you so vehemently criticize.

Have a happy Easter!
 
Read this article a few days ago but forgot to share...


Corruption’s costs

THE underlying logic behind statements like ‘NAB and the economy cannot go together’ is that corruption greases the wheels. So, minus corruption, the economy’s wheels can come to a grinding halt. True. So far, in Pakistan, corruption has provided the required grease; for moving files that should have moved on their own, as well as files that should not have moved at all.

But if corruption is the only thing moving Pakistan’s economy, what of most countries in Europe and North America, even Singapore, where by all accounts corruption levels are quite low or at least much lower than Pakistan?

It is the rule of law, fear of the state, good governance, morality and honesty that oil the economy in these countries. So should we continue to rely on corruption or shift towards upholding these principles? To decide, let us look at the costs of corruption, and whether they outweigh the so-called benefit of oiling the economy.

Good governance is the key to performance in any field, and thus also the key to national well-being. It calls for abiding by the law, policies and rules — whether for awarding a contract to construct a dam or making people queue to pay a utility bill. Corruption involves favouring an individual or entity by violating laws, rules, etc. Hence, good governance and corruption cannot coexist.

The greater the avenues of corruption, the greater the urge and competition to hold such public offices that can facilitate it — it is no wonder that customs and police are the most-sought-after departments in the civil service. Huge amounts of money are spent to secure these coveted posts. Such office holders then engage in corruption to recover this money and make a profit. But this practice kills merit and lands the incompetent in office. Decisions become hostage to the ‘take’ involved rather than being determined by viability and national interest. Such is the cost of corruption.

Fiscal deficit, inflation and exchange rate are interlinked. Low revenues and high expenditures cause fiscal deficit. Revenue is low because the corrupt tax machinery lets evaders go. Public expenditure is high because the cost of building infrastructure and procuring goods in a corrupt environment is higher than it should be. The deficit is covered by printing more money, which causes inflation. Thus inflation is caused, at least partly, owing to corruption.

Higher expenditure means more imports. With exports and remittances not yielding enough dollars, we must borrow to pay for imports. Foreign borrowing, especially from the IMF, comes with strings attached — which at times involve compromising national sovereignty. Thus these strings are also caused, in part, by corruption.

Then there are burdensome indirect taxes, a major chunk of our national tax revenue. The government is forced to rely on regressive taxes because, thanks to corruption, the taxman knowingly looks the other way when a billionaire does not pay income tax.

Money is laundered abroad in foreign currency, which increases the demand for foreign currency and causes the rupee to depreciate. The depreciation makes imports, like fuel, expensive. This causes inflation. Typically, only black money is laundered, and laundering is not possible without corrupt officials. Money laundering and consequently corruption thus contributes to depreciation and inflation.

Corruption also leads to poor public infrastructure. One study shows that earthquakes are relatively more devastating in countries with high levels of corruption because it leads to unsafe buildings constructed in violation of building codes.

In a corrupt environment, businesses devote dedicated persons to cultivate ties with the quarters that matter. Man-hours better invested in productive activities are thus spent making files move.

Finally, corruption spreads like an epide*mic. It is impossible to confine corruption to areas, if any, of *relative benefit.

A sincere and concerted drive to check corruption will certainly slow down the economy in the short run. Unsafe buildings will not be constructed. Low-quality vaccines and stents will not be procured. Unhygienic water will not be bottled. Power plants that seek to produce electricity beyond the going market rate and pollute the environment will not be allowed to. All this means loss of jobs. So a short-term slowdown is inevitable, but it also means saving lives and building human capital that will go on to contribute to the economy and society in the long run. Closing the avenues of corruption will also put an end to money-based competition for coveted bureaucratic posts. Lesser money will be spent on seeking public office, making it possible for the poor to enter politics.

Corruption is, without a doubt, Pakistan’s No.1 problem. It must be tackled first and foremost with across-the-board accountability.

The writer is dean, Air University School of Management, and is associated with the Pakistan Institute of Development Economics, Islamabad.

https://www.dawn.com/news/1495908
 
I have been dabbling with this question as well, BJP is defn way less corrupt than Congress but also extremely inefficient compared to Congress imho, makes me think what is better?

Had a similar question wrt Srini and the next BCCi bosses..
 
I have been dabbling with this question as well, BJP is defn way less corrupt than Congress but also extremely inefficient compared to Congress imho, makes me think what is better?

Had a similar question wrt Srini and the next BCCi bosses..

An economy's growth is felt differently by different segments of society.
You can have a GDP growth that skews towards the rich. Whether that is is genuine growth or driven by corruption.
As long as growth is not felt by all segments of society, campaigning against corruption (real or imagined) will always be a successful ploy.
Trump did it quite well: convinced quite a few ppl in the industrial belt that the system is rigged against them. Their jobs have been exported by politicians signing Nafta etc.
 
An economy's growth is felt differently by different segments of society.
You can have a GDP growth that skews towards the rich. Whether that is is genuine growth or driven by corruption.
As long as growth is not felt by all segments of society, campaigning against corruption (real or imagined) will always be a successful ploy.
Trump did it quite well: convinced quite a few ppl in the industrial belt that the system is rigged against them. Their jobs have been exported by politicians signing Nafta etc.

True the ploy worked for BJP , question is now growth isn’t felt by voting segment of society and there is no corruption in BJP how does the opposition target now? The Trump way that system is rigged but don’t think Desi society will be able to understand that considering Congress ruled for
majority.. so only way to counter BJP on growth terms is having some new party counter them which isn’t happening...

This phase of stagnant growth is being felt across segments but again I can only speak for middle class and maybe the rich don’t feel it.
 
True the ploy worked for BJP , question is now growth isn’t felt by voting segment of society and there is no corruption in BJP how does the opposition target now? The Trump way that system is rigged but don’t think Desi society will be able to understand that considering Congress ruled for
majority.. so only way to counter BJP on growth terms is having some new party counter them which isn’t happening...

This phase of stagnant growth is being felt across segments but again I can only speak for middle class and maybe the rich don’t feel it.
Personally, I feel the BJP is in a tough spot. Twitter gives me a somewhat distorted picture of Indian society - i.e. that its all about muslim bashing or kashmir.
I would argue that the choice before the India's voters was the same prior to elections: a misfiring economy (perhaps the GDP figures were also fudged), demonetization was a disaster, drought in the farm lands/collapse of onion prices etc.
According to all India watchers, Modi campaigned on the anti-Pakistan fervor, while local races were more garden variety communalism.
The question is what next, I mean, how many elections can you win on repealing article 370.
India's leaders have tough issues to grapple with - but I am not sure if the middle class is feeling enough pain to vote against them, yet.
 
Personally, I feel the BJP is in a tough spot. Twitter gives me a somewhat distorted picture of Indian society - i.e. that its all about muslim bashing or kashmir.
I would argue that the choice before the India's voters was the same prior to elections: a misfiring economy (perhaps the GDP figures were also fudged), demonetization was a disaster, drought in the farm lands/collapse of onion prices etc.
According to all India watchers, Modi campaigned on the anti-Pakistan fervor, while local races were more garden variety communalism.
The question is what next, I mean, how many elections can you win on repealing article 370.
India's leaders have tough issues to grapple with - but I am not sure if the middle class is feeling enough pain to vote against them, yet.

He does win on the Hindu card and anti-corruption agenda, even developed countries are voting in right wing govns, in this scenario can hardly blame India for bias towards a Hindu govn..

BJP is controlling the narrative somehow on every issue, I think lack of opposition has resulted in BJP spreading to places they were not big, there is nothing next for Indian voters because many believe its heading in the right path, I personally hope there is some disruption(non-violent), one should always be hopeful :P
 
I’m not going to go into any politics but rather give my 2 cents.

My personal view is that good governance is vital for competence as well as providing other benefits.

Governance itself is a broad area but it’s generally about direction and control. It also involves a number of areas but here are some key things to consider:

1. High level policies - these outline expected behaviours, do’s and don’ts, as well as the remit to work to.
2. Processes and procedures - core processes need to be agreed, developed, documented, etc. These could be for anything, such as finance, IT, etc. Even best practice IT Governance frameworks such as COBIT, ITIL, etc. are all about repeatable and workable processes that give results. Super stars are not needed to save the day. The point is that with sufficient training, anyone can operate these processes.
3. Roles and Responsibilities - need to define what people’s roles and responsibilities are. What should they be doing and what is outside their scope of work.
4. Key Performance Indicators - we need to measure what success is and how we are doing against that. Staff should be assessed against these and if targets are not being met, improved training is required.
5. Key controls - where process isn’t being met or success isn’t being achieved, what controls can be put in place to manage this. For example, IT controls, to automate activities, or restrict people. A good example is limits on expenses people can claim to prevent people from spending too much on travel, etc.

Pakistan needs an overhaul and rethink on how government departments, etc. are managed and governed. A systematic approach is required.

In terms of politics, my understanding was that the current Government was starting to think about policies, which is a good starting point I guess and previously (to my knowledge), they weren’t in place.
 
The issue with the OP is that it isn’t offering any value. It doesn’t seek to define anything, but rather repeat the same argument.

It’s all good and well to talk about competence, but if you aren’t going to define it further than the word itself, the post doesn’t offer any value.
 
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