What's new

India "cannot win a war" against Pakistan due to existing politico-military reality

MenInG

PakPassion Administrator
Staff member
Joined
Oct 2, 2004
Runs
217,863
Ever since his retirement from the Indian police service (IPS) last year N.C. Asthana has emerged as a highly regarded commentator on matters related to ‘law and order’. His columns reflect his wide reading and scholarship – he is the author of 48 books, written or co-authored while in service – and his willingness to be sharply critical of the political and bureaucratic establishment.

In his latest book, National Security and Conventional Arms Race: Spectre of a Nuclear War (Jaipur: Pointer Books, 2020), Asthana turns his critical attention to the politics and discourse of national security and war. His conclusion: India has no clarity about its military and strategic objectives vis-à-vis its stated adversaries, Pakistan and China. And that there is a huge mismatch between the militaristic official and media rhetoric, on the one hand, and the reality, which is that India cannot defeat either country militarily. Instead of pouring vast sums of money into expensive weapons imports, India would be better served by finding solutions to the security challenges both Pakistan and China present by strengthening itself internally and pursuing non-military solutions, including diplomacy.

While these arguments may be broadly familiar to security analysts, Asthana also focusses on what he calls the “politics of warmongering” which has consumed public discourse in India over the past six years. Under the delusion that India has somehow, magically become invincible, he notes how a large number of Indians seem to be itching for a war.

This belief is both fuelled and strengthened by relentless arms imports. Asthana puts the figure India has spent on arms import in the five years since 2014 at $14 billion, and the undisclosed cost of the 36 Rafale jets purchased from Dassault Aviation is not included in this. But even this sum pales before the $130 billion India is projected to spend on arms imports in the next decade, including on 100+ even-more-expensive fighter jets to make up for the shortfall caused by the Modi government’s decision to scrap the earlier deal for 126 Rafales.

As the fanfare over the arrival of the first Rafales showed, each of these purchases is hailed and sold to the public by the media as weapons that will flatten India’s enemies. But of course, this is far from the truth. Asthana argues in his book that the frenzied import of conventional weapons will never guarantee a permanent solution to the military problem posed by Pakistan or China because both Pakistan and China are nuclear-weapon states and cannot be decisively defeated on the battlefield.

Given the myth of Indian invincibility, the futility of warmongering should be obvious. Yet, as the past few years have demonstrated, jingoism in India is at an all-time high.

While conventional weapons can provide a tactical advantage in limited theatre conflicts short of war, the danger lies in escalation – which is hard to control at the best of times but especially so when the public discourse has been vitiated by the politics of warmongering.

‘Talks and terror cannot go hand in hand’ sounds reasonable as a diplomatic posture but not when the ensuing hiatus stretches into years and decades. Despite the strategy of ‘no talks’ clearly not helping to end the terror, there has been no meaningful diplomacy with Pakistan since the Mumbai attacks 12 years ago.

Defence Minister Rajnath Singh with the troops who participated in the para dropping and other military exercise at Stakna, in Leh, Ladakh, Friday, July 17, 2020. Photo: PTI

Asthana believes that exploiting enmity with Pakistan for electoral benefits has made Indian leaders victims of their own rhetoric, where they are left with a one-dimensional policy – one which is unrealistic in view of Pakistan’s nuclear weapons. Quoting Napoleon, he notes: “If they want peace, nations should avoid the pinpricks that precede cannon shots.”

India’s army, air force and navy are bigger than those of Pakistan. However, as Asthana notes, the limited number of axes of attack, in which the much-touted Cold Start could be employed, tends to make the whole thing quite predictable. There is no scope for any element of shock and surprise. Moreover, practically all options and counters to them have been debated and explored by both sides.

Pakistan’s compulsion to go nuclear

In any case, the moment Pakistan feels that it is going to lose a conventional war under the weight of a bigger Indian military, it will feel compelled to go nuclear immediately. This is not 1971. Recall what General Khalid Kidwai, head of Pakistan’s strategic command, told a visiting Italian arms control organisation delegation about the country’s red lines in 2002:

Pakistani nuclear weapons will be used, according to General Kidwai, only “if the very existence of Pakistan as a state is at stake”. This has been detailed by General Kidwai as follows:

“Nuclear weapons are aimed solely at India. In case that deterrence fails, they will be used if

India attacks Pakistan and conquers a large part of its territory (space threshold)
India destroys a large part either of its land or air forces (military threshold)
India proceeds to the economic strangling of Pakistan (economic strangling)
India pushes Pakistan into political destabilization or creates a large scale internal subversion in Pakistan (domestic destabilization)”

According to General Kidwai, “examples of economic strangling of Pakistan included a naval blockade and the stopping of the waters of the Indus river”.

Despite this information that is both in the public domain and confirmed by Indian intelligence assessments, prime minister threatened Pakistan with the abrogation of the Indus Waters Treaty in 2016, saying “blood and water cannot flow together”.

If that was a classic example of the politics of warmongering, executed for the benefit of a domestic audience, Asthana says the harsh reality is that India cannot ‘win’ a war against Pakistan, and the sooner the country appreciates this politico-military reality, the more sensible it will sound to its adversaries and the world community.

Warmongering as a political project also includes assiduously inculcating in the minds of the people the notion that once India goes to war under the leadership of a strong-willed, leader, it will perforce defeat its enemies and usher in a golden age of a never-ending Pax Indiana.

This dangerous notion fits well with the domestic political agenda both as a diversion from, and alibi for, poor governance and other failings.

https://thewire.in/security-security/national-security-arms-race-nc-asthana
 
Interesting sentiments - would like to hear some of our posters about this.
 
Do not understand why this is a surprise to anyone. The ship sailed a long time ago with respect to a decisive military defeat of Pakistan. The policy based on international isolation of Pakistan (to bring the Pak to its knees) has also largely failed. The only viable solution to long term stability in the region is through outcome based dialogue.

Both India and Pakistan need to give Their respective parts of Kashmir special status whereby people to people contact is made possible, agreement reached as to how each nation will provide law and order to their respective parts of Kashmir. Independent arbitration mechanisms for dispute resolution also need to established and adhered to.

A stable and mutually beneficial arrangement on Kashmir will be a massive economic and social achievement for both nations and most importantly for the people of Kashmir.
 
Do not understand why this is a surprise to anyone. The ship sailed a long time ago with respect to a decisive military defeat of Pakistan. The policy based on international isolation of Pakistan (to bring the Pak to its knees) has also largely failed. The only viable solution to long term stability in the region is through outcome based dialogue.

Both India and Pakistan need to give Their respective parts of Kashmir special status whereby people to people contact is made possible, agreement reached as to how each nation will provide law and order to their respective parts of Kashmir. Independent arbitration mechanisms for dispute resolution also need to established and adhered to.

A stable and mutually beneficial arrangement on Kashmir will be a massive economic and social achievement for both nations and most importantly for the people of Kashmir.

How about let the Kashmiris decide. PK offered peace but for electoral advantages Modi rejected it, I am not sure where Ind can go from here
 
That may be a solution in the longer term but it might be a step too far in the short to medium term. Baby steps ... both nations need to learn to cooperate on the Kashmir issue for the benefit of the Kashmiri people on both sides.
 
How about let the Kashmiris decide. PK offered peace but for electoral advantages Modi rejected it, I am not sure where Ind can go from here
Modi said he offered peace first despite facing severe criticism from opposition but pakistan considered it as weakness
 
They do not need to win another war. They humiliated they dished out in 1971 and also to an extent in 1999 is enough leverage for a lifetime.
 
They do not need to win another war. They humiliated they dished out in 1971 and also to an extent in 1999 is enough leverage for a lifetime.

Sadly forgotten about in the current digital social media age.

However a certain man's foray over the border for a glass of chai is fresh in the memory.

Meme culture, nothin like it.
 
Sadly forgotten about in the current digital social media age.

However a certain man's foray over the border for a glass of chai is fresh in the memory.

Meme culture, nothin like it.

The current Indian political leadership is consumed by their ability (or lack thereof) to push their weight around the region. You only need to see the reaction to receiving the used Rafale war jets by the media and politicians. The foolish notion was projected that those planes had magically fixed the disparity with China and made Pakistan an irrelevant neighbour that could easily be taken out.

The capabilities of the PAF and the global humiliation suffered by the IAF has not helped the state of the Indian inferiority complex. The situation has been made worse by Ladak and China’s total disregard for India potential response.

Despite what ill informed posters may suggest, military superiority (against Pakistan) and deterrence (against China) is top of the list of priorities for government and the military establishment in India.
 
Why would India even initiate a war against Pakistan?

If anything it's Pakistan who are more likely to do that in order to get a "final solution" for Kashmir and finally avenge the ultimate humiliation they faced five decades ago.
 
Why would India even initiate a war against Pakistan?

If anything it's Pakistan who are more likely to do that in order to get a "final solution" for Kashmir and finally avenge the ultimate humiliation they faced five decades ago.

Don’t your politicians have a routine crying session where they threaten to take back “pok” lol? Modi and several other major Indian politicians have made comments about taking back “their” territory. That could be a pretty good incentive to star at a war.
 
Sadly forgotten about in the current digital social media age.

However a certain man's foray over the border for a glass of chai is fresh in the memory.

Meme culture, nothin like it.

Pakistan can parade Abhinandan and make lame chai jokes all they want, but it doesn’t remotely compensate for the 90,000 POWs that India took after 1971 war and forced General Niazi to sign the instrument of surrender.

Abhinandan has all that we have to show for. Pity.
 
Funny how India changed their war strategy upon Pakistan during the Pulwama drama, where at first they created a mood of war for the nation through media lies and propaganda. Sustained pressure on The Indian military to respond to an internal defence lapse by violating Pak air space...

And when the war was finally brought to them the very next day (after a clear warning that a response is on the way), plus the humiliation they had to suffer on the 27th of February as a result....The Indian strategy of media war mongering completely comes to a halt and talks of peace resume behind closed doors lol.

Pakistan will always have the upper hand regardless if it is 5 times smaller a nation.
 
Pakistan can parade Abhinandan and make lame chai jokes all they want, but it doesn’t remotely compensate for the 90,000 POWs that India took after 1971 war and forced General Niazi to sign the instrument of surrender.

Abhinandan has all that we have to show for. Pity.

LOL you have a split nation of 220M population to show for. That in it self is humiliating enough for the great nation of India that was torn to shreds by The British Empire. This wound will not, cannot heal.
 
Not only did the British tear India to shreds, it also created a wild, crazy neighbour that has been a thorn since 1947. The proof of this is that the vast majority of military resources in India are being wasted on a part of the country that is desperate to find its independence, and Pakistan has now reached the point where it does not even have to initiate the problem for India anymore through its proxy wars.

My God. Lord Mountbatten allowed Nehru to have fun whilst having a lot of fun with the country himself.
 
Funny how India changed their war strategy upon Pakistan during the Pulwama drama, where at first they created a mood of war for the nation through media lies and propaganda. Sustained pressure on The Indian military to respond to an internal defence lapse by violating Pak air space...

And when the war was finally brought to them the very next day (after a clear warning that a response is on the way), plus the humiliation they had to suffer on the 27th of February as a result....The Indian strategy of media war mongering completely comes to a halt and talks of peace resume behind closed doors lol.

Pakistan will always have the upper hand regardless if it is 5 times smaller a nation.

To quote the greatest of all Mikes around: everyone has a plan until they get punched in the mouth.

And boy did that poor boy got punched, literally, by Kashmiris :yk
 
LOL you have a split nation of 220M population to show for. That in it self is humiliating enough for the great nation of India that was torn to shreds by The British Empire. This wound will not, cannot heal.

British India was split, not republic of India.

Republic of Pakistan was split thanks to India and we had to sign the instrument of surrender. Pakistan has not got back at India for the 1971 humiliation and never will.
 
British India was split, not republic of India.

Republic of Pakistan was split thanks to India and we had to sign the instrument of surrender. Pakistan has not got back at India for the 1971 humiliation and never will.

Republic India is split, was split on the 14th of August 1947 and since the day Kashmir was split into half. India is split, cracked. There is no denying this no matter how much you try to console yourself about 1971 or whatever. India needs to remove its part of Kashmir which has become a cancer for the nation and a pointless wasting of military and financial resources.
 
Republic India is split, was split on the 14th of August 1947 and since the day Kashmir was split into half. India is split, cracked. There is no denying this no matter how much you try to console yourself about 1971 or whatever. India needs to remove its part of Kashmir which has become a cancer for the nation and a pointless wasting of military and financial resources.

Azad Kashmir was captured by the FATA tribals not the military of Pakistan. The military did not have the courage to make the first move.

When the FATA tribals invaded the Azad Kashmir region, the military of Pakistan decided to assist them.

The Kashmir ruler agreed to join India in exchange for India providing military assistance to contain Pakistani military’s advances.

Once the Indian military got involved, the Pakistani military had to retreat from the Indian occupied Kashmir just like they retreated in 1965 and 1999.

So whatever portion of Kashmir that Pakistan captured, they have to thank the FATA tribals for it, and the same tribals that were treated like animals under the draconian FCR Laws.

India though, after losing the AJK area of Kashmir, paid Pakistan back with interest by assisting East Pakistan in its liberation war and diving Pakistan into two pieces.

Pakistan haven’t and will not get back at India for 1971. They tried their luck once (1999 Kargil war) and failed with flying colors.

India will never cede control of Indian occupied Kashmir. Pakistan needs to wake up and smell the reality and give up on this fantasy.

Let India do with Kashmir as it likes, it is not our problem. Focus on your country. Besides, even if pigs fly and India gives up Kashmir, what then?

If Kashmir become independent, what will happen to Azad Kashmir? Will they demand their independence as well? Pakistan will never cede control of Azad Kashmir no matter what we might claim today.

Similarly, if Indian occupied Kashmir joins Azad Kashmir, that region will still have to be heavily militarized because India will do everything within its power to destabilize the region.

To cut the long story short, Kashmir will always be a liability for both countries and it has become an ego war now. Neither of the two countries will back out because it will make them look weak.

Ideally, Pakistan needs to finally mind its own business and let Indian occupied Kashmir be. It will look weak in the short run but bear fruit in the long run.

Kashmir eats up our resources for no gain. Yes it has the same affect on India, but the Indian economy is far bigger than Pakistan and it has greater capacity to sustain its impact.

The real problem though is there is no civil supremacy in Pakistan. The federal leadership is basically subservient to the the military leadership. In Pakistan, the military chief holds real power, not the PM.

The military will not back out of Kashmir because if there is peace between the two countries, they will lose their influence within the country.

The military is never a political and economic force in a country that is at peace. A peaceful Pakistan is against the interests of the military of Pakistan.
 
Republic India is split, was split on the 14th of August 1947 and since the day Kashmir was split into half. India is split, cracked. There is no denying this no matter how much you try to console yourself about 1971 or whatever. India needs to remove its part of Kashmir which has become a cancer for the nation and a pointless wasting of military and financial resources.

Also, you need to educate yourself. Republic of India was not split on 14th August. India became a republic on January 26 1950.

Since India became a republic, Pakistan has not been able to grab an inch of India. On the other hand, India carved Pakistan into two pieces.
 
Pakistan will always have the upper hand regardless if it is 5 times smaller a nation.

You lot lost Bangladesh in 1971, lost every war you ever started with India, and haven't 'liberated' one square cm of Indian Kashmir despite several decades of trying.

If that gives you the 'upper hand' in your dictionary, so be it . :))

And as for Abhinandan, congratulations for bringing down a 1960s era Soviet built junk with your latest Chinese toys. The MIG 21 probably crashed by itself due to some technical fault than due to any superior Pakistani marksmanship.
 
Pakistan initiated all wars with India and lost all wars against India. I know, Pakistan Studies sing praises of glorious Pakistani military against Hindustan but no matter how many times you repeat a lie, it never becomes the truth.

Also, the Pakistan military is not interested in peace with India. Whenever a civilian leader has reached out to India, the military has always intervened and sabotaged such peace gestures with Mumbai Attacks being one of the prime examples of such sabotage.
 
Pakistan initiated all wars with India and lost all wars against India. I know, Pakistan Studies sing praises of glorious Pakistani military against Hindustan but no matter how many times you repeat a lie, it never becomes the truth.

Also, the Pakistan military is not interested in peace with India. Whenever a civilian leader has reached out to India, the military has always intervened and sabotaged such peace gestures with Mumbai Attacks being one of the prime examples of such sabotage.

We attacked Kashmir in 1965 and India decided to attack Lahore. We didn’t have the numbers to fight on two fronts so we had to retreat from Kashmir to save Lahore.

All 1965 war was Pakistan overestimating itself and embarking on a misadventure that nearly backfired in spectacular fashion, but today we will spend crores of rupees on September 6, and fly jets and blow trumpets and call it “Defense Day”. :))
 
Also, the Pakistan military is not interested in peace with India. Whenever a civilian leader has reached out to India, the military has always intervened and sabotaged such peace gestures with Mumbai Attacks being one of the prime examples of such sabotage.

The Pakistani military seems to need India badly to justify its own existence. They have successfully used India to blackmail every civilian government in Pakistan with their 'Hindu aayega aur hum sab ko kha jayega' narrative. The civilian governments in Pakistan have had no choice but to give the military whatever it wants. The Pakistan military has taken full advantage of this.
 
The Pakistani military seems to need India badly to justify its own existence. They have successfully used India to blackmail every civilian government in Pakistan with their 'Hindu aayega aur hum sab ko kha jayega' narrative. The civilian governments in Pakistan have had no choice but to give the military whatever it wants.

Pakistani military will lose its political and economic clout the day peace is established between Pakistan and India. They need India as a boogeymen to maintain the noose around the neck of federal leadership.

Quaid-e-Azam’s death only a year after the formation of Pakistan created a power vaccum which was quickly occupied by the military. Since then, they have called the shots and policed Pakistan’s foreign relations.
 
The public of Pakistan is a victim of 70+ years of mass military propaganda by the military. As a result, any federal leader who tries to establish peace with India is immediately viewed as a traitor.
 
The Pakistani military seems to need India badly to justify its own existence. They have successfully used India to blackmail every civilian government in Pakistan with their 'Hindu aayega aur hum sab ko kha jayega' narrative. The civilian governments in Pakistan have had no choice but to give the military whatever it wants. The Pakistan military has taken full advantage of this.

They will lose their stranglehold and influence over the country. If there is peace with India, the military would be forced to keep its nose out of Pakistan’s economic, political and social affairs. It would be restricted to its barracks. It would have no reasons to justify a mammoth defence budget and it would have no reasons to snatch billions from the exchequer as special military funds.

If the military is restricted to its barracks, army generals would not be considered godfathers and they would not be able to live like kings and run 32 commercial entities ranging from cereal to real estate to bottled mineral water and earn hundreds of billion annually.
 
The public of Pakistan is a victim of 70+ years of mass military propaganda by the military. As a result, any federal leader who tries to establish peace with India is immediately viewed as a traitor.

Who was that leader, can you name him.
 
Pakistani military will lose its political and economic clout the day peace is established between Pakistan and India. They need India as a boogeymen to maintain the noose around the neck of federal leadership.

Quaid-e-Azam’s death only a year after the formation of Pakistan created a power vaccum which was quickly occupied by the military. Since then, they have called the shots and policed Pakistan’s foreign relations.

Without a strong military PK would never have survived the treacherous family dynasties.
 
British India was split, not republic of India.

Republic of Pakistan was split thanks to India and we had to sign the instrument of surrender. Pakistan has not got back at India for the 1971 humiliation and never will.

Indians don't agree with you. They blame Jinnah for splitting India, who is right?
 
Don’t your politicians have a routine crying session where they threaten to take back “pok” lol? Modi and several other major Indian politicians have made comments about taking back “their” territory. That could be a pretty good incentive to star at a war.

Lol Modi never made any statement about PoK. Why would he ?

Noone in India cares about it and every politician knows. You'll hear some token statements like "pOk is integral part of India that is forcibly occupied by Pakistan" to counter Pakistan's "IOK" claims. But that's about it. India is not going to invade any land.

"Crying" is what you call Imran does every weekend on Twitter.
 
Lol Modi never made any statement about PoK. Why would he ?

Noone in India cares about it and every politician knows. You'll hear some token statements like "pOk is integral part of India that is forcibly occupied by Pakistan" to counter Pakistan's "IOK" claims. But that's about it. India is not going to invade any land.

"Crying" is what you call Imran does every weekend on Twitter.

India would have done so if they had the capability. You guys are literally celebrating the fact that BD was split from PK with your help.
 
India would have done so if they had the capability. You guys are literally celebrating the fact that BD was split from PK with your help.

I think it's a risk vs reward thing more than a "capability" thing.

Don't think anyone's celebrating it but don't see anything wrong with that even if they are. Lets be honest here. Everytime anyone sees 'India', 'Pakistan' and 'war' in a single frame their minds go back to the picture of Uncle-E-Imran AAK Niazi signing the instrument of surrender to Jagjit singh Aurora at Dhaka. And it will remain the same for years to come unless Pakistan walks into Srinagar and captures 90000 Indian soldiers and helping Kashmir split from India. :)
 
I think it's a risk vs reward thing more than a "capability" thing.

Don't think anyone's celebrating it but don't see anything wrong with that even if they are. Lets be honest here. Everytime anyone sees 'India', 'Pakistan' and 'war' in a single frame their minds go back to the picture of Uncle-E-Imran AAK Niazi signing the instrument of surrender to Jagjit singh Aurora at Dhaka. And it will remain the same for years to come unless Pakistan walks into Srinagar and captures 90000 Indian soldiers and helping Kashmir split from India. :)

I am not sure where you get this idea wasn't celebrating, As far as capability is concerned, you are spending around 70bn a year on defense and you don't fight the Chinese, you become doves against them but our civilians in AJK are targeted every day, even the UN have been hit with artillery.
 
To quote the greatest of all Mikes around: everyone has a plan until they get punched in the mouth.

And boy did that poor boy got punched, literally, by Kashmiris :yk


Pakistan is too tiny and chaotic a country for India to start a war with. We would prefer to fight a more efficient adversary.
 
I am not sure where you get this idea wasn't celebrating, As far as capability is concerned, you are spending around 70bn a year on defense and you don't fight the Chinese, you become doves against them but our civilians in AJK are targeted every day, even the UN have been hit with artillery.

So just because China is too embarrassed to reveal the casualties of the border clashes, we "aren't fighting the Chinese" ? :)))

I mean I know Pakistanis have got to stay loyal to their "allies" and toe their mast....sorry allies' line but it just gets funny every time they try.
 
The humiliation they faced in 2019 was not even 0.1% of the humiliation we faced in 1971.

Oh really? Can you recall the humiliation as you might have been around 25 years old at the time?
 
Why doesn't just India waltz in and take what it believes is theirs? I mean with all the bravado, chest thumping, claims of military and econmic might - what is stopping India?
 
Oh really? Can you recall the humiliation as you might have been around 25 years old at the time?

He's bicentennial man. He doesn't age, and has experienced the past 200 years, and going strong. Just waiting for him to pull out a photo with him and W.G.Grace with a young Bradman on his side. :)))
 
There is constructive criticism, which all we do here by criticising our army's negative influence on our politics, and then there is treason. 2 posters in this thread are an example. Which is why our nation has been in a dump for decades, people are surprised how easily our country is infiltrated everytime. Its not surprising, you have back stabbers openly supporting the other side's narrative without any encouragement. You hand these type of people weapons and tell them to go after the state and its forces and the result is espionage and chaos.

Hussain Haqqani is an example, our own ambassador who would bash our nation's forces and agencies while being an ambassador. The two posters, one sitting in hong kong and the other in KPK, perpetrating to be Pakistanis, are another example of what I am talking about.
 
Last edited:
He's bicentennial man. He doesn't age, and has experienced the past 200 years, and going strong. Just waiting for him to pull out a photo with him and W.G.Grace with a young Bradman on his side. :)))

The humiliation India suffered in 2019 is 0.1% as compared to what Pakistan suffered in 1971...

Surely the Buzurgs of Pakistan who are now around 70-80 years old may not have mentally survived a shame and humiliation of a catastrophic nature? There should have been mass suicide of 150M people who could not endure another moment of embarrassment that has been inflicted upon them in the year 1971?

I’m really interested to do my research on the mood of the nation now for the year 1971, the year of Shame Times 1000 of the shame India suffered in 27th February.

I believe it is a duty of historians to now preserve the sentiments, moods of the survivors of this year 1971 of shame 1000...because we should have learned our lesson by not preserving all of the sentiments of the people who suffered the partition in 1947. History is our duty to preserve
 
The humiliation India suffered in 2019 is 0.1% as compared to what Pakistan suffered in 1971...

Surely the Buzurgs of Pakistan who are now around 70-80 years old may not have mentally survived a shame and humiliation of a catastrophic nature? There should have been mass suicide of 150M people who could not endure another moment of embarrassment that has been inflicted upon them in the year 1971?

I’m really interested to do my research on the mood of the nation now for the year 1971, the year of Shame Times 1000 of the shame India suffered in 27th February.

I believe it is a duty of historians to now preserve the sentiments, moods of the survivors of this year 1971 of shame 1000...because we should have learned our lesson by not preserving all of the sentiments of the people who suffered the partition in 1947. History is our duty to preserve

Spot on.

The best thing is also never to underestimate our enemy and learn from our mistakes. We massively underestimated India back then and overestimated our abilities. Since then we have adapted and changed and realised our limitations and instead worked on effective deterrents. Nukes are one example and a robust and effective air force is another, which is why you see proper investment and long term planning in our air power capabilities. India however are making the mistakes we did and massively underestimating us and overestimating their own abilities. 2019 was a result of it and later on the phainti they got from the Chinese this year.
 
Why doesn't just India waltz in and take what it believes is theirs? I mean with all the bravado, chest thumping, claims of military and econmic might - what is stopping India?

Exactly what I was thinking. I thought this is the new India? Jo ghus ke maare ga?

So there was an ‘old India’ that was too scared to enter?
 
So just because China is too embarrassed to reveal the casualties of the border clashes, we "aren't fighting the Chinese" ? :)))

I mean I know Pakistanis have got to stay loyal to their "allies" and toe their mast....sorry allies' line but it just gets funny every time they try.

Firstly, you guys and along with your govt told us nothing happened and when the cat was out of the bag, and your soldiers were beaten to death, the only answer you have is that some Chinese soldiers also died. Its fact that they have taken 100s of Sq KM of your territory or is that just us being loyal to China. People have resigned for far far less
 
Last edited:
The humiliation India suffered in 2019 is 0.1% as compared to what Pakistan suffered in 1971...

Surely the Buzurgs of Pakistan who are now around 70-80 years old may not have mentally survived a shame and humiliation of a catastrophic nature? There should have been mass suicide of 150M people who could not endure another moment of embarrassment that has been inflicted upon them in the year 1971?

I’m really interested to do my research on the mood of the nation now for the year 1971, the year of Shame Times 1000 of the shame India suffered in 27th February.

I believe it is a duty of historians to now preserve the sentiments, moods of the survivors of this year 1971 of shame 1000...because we should have learned our lesson by not preserving all of the sentiments of the people who suffered the partition in 1947. History is our duty to preserve

One of my uncles lives in Brummie, is 86, and his experience and recount of not only the partition, but 71, are a real eye opener. Seeing his photos and hearing his actual experiences just pours water over the hindutva sandcastle narrative.

You are spot on too, the humiliation on 27th Feb was far worse. For one, it proved that quality will always trump quantity, and 2, in the age of the internet and global telecoms, India cannot lie as it has done in the past.

Pity though, India didn't learn, spewed lies hoping the world will fall for their hollow cries, and in the end embarrassed themselves on the international stage after their lies were exposed by nations other than Pakistan. As a result, neutrals see for what India really is - a rightwing religious terrorist state.

Ironic, a chai walla Modi, end up getting served tea by Pakistan. Love it.
 
Firstly, you guys and along with your govt told us nothing happened and when the cat was out of the bag, and your soldiers were beaten to death, the only answer you have is that some Chinese soldiers also died. Its fact that they have 100s of Sq KM of territory or is that us being loyal to China

I don't know why these BJP morons come here and gloat. If our army performed this badly I'd question them. India spends tens of billions on their defence, they can't do anything against China, a nation their size. Nor can they defend their jets being shot down by a supposed 'failed' state which was nearly bankrupt and doesn't even spend 1/10th of their budget on defence.

What exactly does their military spend £££ on? That's what I'd question if I was Indian instead of coming on a Pakistani forum talking drivel.
 
Firstly, you guys and along with your govt told us nothing happened and when the cat was out of the bag, and your soldiers were beaten to death, the only answer you have is that some Chinese soldiers also died. Its fact that they have taken 100s of Sq KM of your territory or is that just us being loyal to China. People have resigned for far far less

Ofcourse a Pakistani would think that no Chinese immortal superhuman soldiers died and that China took 100s of miles and are now marching down to Leh and Srinagar to "free" Kashmir and gift it to their "ally" Pakistan and then they sing Dil dil Pa..... :)

Even they have admitted that casualties were on both sides but can't reveal them for some reason.....I wonder why?

But anyways you do you.
 
Ofcourse a Pakistani would think that no Chinese immortal superhuman soldiers died and that China took 100s of miles and are now marching down to Leh and Srinagar to "free" Kashmir and gift it to their "ally" Pakistan and then they sing Dil dil Pa..... :)

Even they have admitted that casualties were on both sides but can't reveal them for some reason.....I wonder why?

But anyways you do you.

Its not just us, the World knows and its the reason you pathetically targeted our civilians because you haven't got the balls to attack the Chinese.
This is from the Times UK
"Caught out by the Chinese offensive, India’s initial response was simply to deny it. Even after 20 Indian troops were killed in an ambush in June, beaten to death with clubs wrapped in barbed wire and hurled off cliffs into a river, the Indian prime minister, Narendra Modi, insisted there had been “no incursion” at the border.
 
Its not just us, the World knows and its the reason you pathetically targeted our civilians because you haven't got the balls to attack the Chinese.
This is from the Times UK
"Caught out by the Chinese offensive, India’s initial response was simply to deny it. Even after 20 Indian troops were killed in an ambush in June, beaten to death with clubs wrapped in barbed wire and hurled off cliffs into a river, the Indian prime minister, Narendra Modi, insisted there had been “no incursion” at the border.


Don't quite see your point here. This just says how Modi denied an "incursion" which he was technically not wrong about but that's a discussion for another day.

US media was reporting that 35 Chinese soldiers died and China's own GTimes was crying about Indians crossing the LaC and whatnot. So yeah ... you shouldn't talk about balls here when your own PM sweats a gallon to even acknowledge the Chinese human rights abuses. And that too ironically, targeted towards the same religion that he claims to be the saviour of.
 
Don't quite see your point here. This just says how Modi denied an "incursion" which he was technically not wrong about but that's a discussion for another day.

US media was reporting that 35 Chinese soldiers died and China's own GTimes was crying about Indians crossing the LaC and whatnot. So yeah ... you shouldn't talk about balls here when your own PM sweats a gallon to even acknowledge the Chinese human rights abuses. And that too ironically, targeted towards the same religion that he claims to be the saviour of.

So Modi wasn't wrong on the incursion. What would be technically right? A full invasion of India. Lol
US media is reporting the deaths based on what sources? Don't tell me, the Srivastava group also gave them those figures. Firstly IK kicked your backside, a country 5 times bigger and also he is not war with China, you are, and you have denied, run and embarrassed yourselves. So let's see you guys actually do something against a country your own size. Thought not.
 
Speaking truth in the face of propaganda.

https://youtu.be/thNkjR2bM8o

Pakistan over the past 70 years has closed the gap on India militarily. Which is an achievement in itself given the fact that Pakistan had no military infrastructure at the point of creation compared to a well established infrastructure in India.

Military option for both nations is off the table as evidenced by the recent violations of LOC by both nations.
 
In year 2075 Indians and those pretending to be will still talk of 1971.

Such a stupid argument as since Nukes have come to say hi to Delhi.

India cant take 'their' Kashmir occupied by Pakistan, trying to defeat a nuclear armed nation is just a nice dream.
 
So Modi wasn't wrong on the incursion. What would be technically right? A full invasion of India. Lol
US media is reporting the deaths based on what sources? Don't tell me, the Srivastava group also gave them those figures. Firstly IK kicked your backside, a country 5 times bigger and also he is not war with China, you are, and you have denied, run and embarrassed yourselves. So let's see you guys actually do something against a country your own size. Thought not.

And the UK media is reporting that based on what sources? You do realise two can play this game right?

And no. Imran kicked nothing. Maybe his head to think of new keywords other than "RSS Nazi fascist" to fire his weakly tweet missile towards India as he knows he can do nothing else.
 
And the UK media is reporting that based on what sources? You do realise two can play this game right?

And no. Imran kicked nothing. Maybe his head to think of new keywords other than "RSS Nazi fascist" to fire his weakly tweet missile towards India as he knows he can do nothing else.

They have a reporter on the ground. It seems you are still in denial? But the facts on the ground can't be wished away by Hindutuva trolls.
 
In year 2075 Indians and those pretending to be will still talk of 1971.

Such a stupid argument as since Nukes have come to say hi to Delhi.

India cant take 'their' Kashmir occupied by Pakistan, trying to defeat a nuclear armed nation is just a nice dream.

The narrative you refer to is stupid beyond comprehension. They are projecting Pakistan’s military capabilities 24 years after creation with those after 70+ years.

Pakistan was militarily vulnerable to India but the nuclear capability as well as investment in better trained army and airforce (though significantly smaller), means that Pakistan can cause sufficient pain to India to render the military option as not the decisive factor in future Pak/India relations.

These will not be a decisive war but dialogue to resolve future differences. Which is beneficial to the general public on both sides.
 
In year 2075 Indians and those pretending to be will still talk of 1971.

Such a stupid argument as since Nukes have come to say hi to Delhi.

India cant take 'their' Kashmir occupied by Pakistan, trying to defeat a nuclear armed nation is just a nice dream.

India had many chances before 1999, before Pakistan had an operational nuke, but, still chickened out. All was up for grabs in 71, but India failed. This is why India remain peeved.

To be fair, India did try and destroy Pakistan on the global cricket stage in 2017 under the metaphor of war and politics, the world witnessed what happened then. Their #1 weapon (Kohli) duped in 2 successive balls.

India tried to defeat Pakistan using economics but failed to realise Pakistan is geographically blessed as the gateway between the emerging corridor of the East and West. KSE the best performer in SC.

Unfortunately for India, they are not geographically blessed. China in the North, Pakistan in the West, Ocean in the South, and turmoil in the East.

Politically, Pakistan's clout in on the up, India's is on the way down, which is why they had to reach out to Isreal for help.

In summary, India has tried and failed to defeat Pakistan via:

Military
Economics
Politics
Sport

The best part is, India has no where to run, literally.

:)
 
India had many chances before 1999, before Pakistan had an operational nuke, but, still chickened out. All was up for grabs in 71, but India failed. This is why India remain peeved.

To be fair, India did try and destroy Pakistan on the global cricket stage in 2017 under the metaphor of war and politics, the world witnessed what happened then. Their #1 weapon (Kohli) duped in 2 successive balls.

India tried to defeat Pakistan using economics but failed to realise Pakistan is geographically blessed as the gateway between the emerging corridor of the East and West. KSE the best performer in SC.

Unfortunately for India, they are not geographically blessed. China in the North, Pakistan in the West, Ocean in the South, and turmoil in the East.

Politically, Pakistan's clout in on the up, India's is on the way down, which is why they had to reach out to Isreal for help.

In summary, India has tried and failed to defeat Pakistan via:

Military
Economics
Politics
Sport

The best part is, India has no where to run, literally.

:)

This is it. Nobody really cares about the “embarrassment”’of 71 or 65 or whatever other year some self hating Pakistanis on this forum like to refer to. We’re in the present now, India is on a downward spiral towards implosion. Pakistan is far from perfect but moving towards an upwards trajectory. I’ve said it before, there is no country on this planet that is 5x the size of their neighbour but totally obsessed with it. This will forever prevent India from progressing into the upper tier League of Nations.
 
India had many chances before 1999, before Pakistan had an operational nuke, but, still chickened out. All was up for grabs in 71, but India failed. This is why India remain peeved.

To be fair, India did try and destroy Pakistan on the global cricket stage in 2017 under the metaphor of war and politics, the world witnessed what happened then. Their #1 weapon (Kohli) duped in 2 successive balls.

India tried to defeat Pakistan using economics but failed to realise Pakistan is geographically blessed as the gateway between the emerging corridor of the East and West. KSE the best performer in SC.

Unfortunately for India, they are not geographically blessed. China in the North, Pakistan in the West, Ocean in the South, and turmoil in the East.

Politically, Pakistan's clout in on the up, India's is on the way down, which is why they had to reach out to Isreal for help.

In summary, India has tried and failed to defeat Pakistan via:

Military
Economics
Politics
Sport

The best part is, India has no where to run, literally.

:)

Yes. Pakistan is on the way up that is why nobody buys our Kashmir narrative and nobody takes us seriously. We face humiliation wherever we go. We are a bankrupt country surviving on IMF bailouts. Aur chalay hai India aur dunya ko challenge karnay. Sharam aani chahiyay.
 
Why would India even initiate a war against Pakistan?

If anything it's Pakistan who are more likely to do that in order to get a "final solution" for Kashmir and finally avenge the ultimate humiliation they faced five decades ago.

For two years Indian military chiefs and politicians have been threatening war with Pakistan through inflammatory official statements. Do you not read the news or just choose to be ignore it?
 
Interesting sentiments - would like to hear some of our posters about this.

I don't think he has said anything that wasn't already patently obvious.

India's defence chiefs can only rely on inflammatory statements. If they had the gall to anything they wouldn't need to resort to surgical strikes (fake or real).
 
India had many chances before 1999, before Pakistan had an operational nuke, but, still chickened out. All was up for grabs in 71, but India failed. This is why India remain peeved.

To be fair, India did try and destroy Pakistan on the global cricket stage in 2017 under the metaphor of war and politics, the world witnessed what happened then. Their #1 weapon (Kohli) duped in 2 successive balls.

India tried to defeat Pakistan using economics but failed to realise Pakistan is geographically blessed as the gateway between the emerging corridor of the East and West. KSE the best performer in SC.

Unfortunately for India, they are not geographically blessed. China in the North, Pakistan in the West, Ocean in the South, and turmoil in the East.

Politically, Pakistan's clout in on the up, India's is on the way down, which is why they had to reach out to Isreal for help.

In summary, India has tried and failed to defeat Pakistan via:

Military
Economics
Politics
Sport

The best part is, India has no where to run, literally.

:)

The thing most people fail to realize about 1971 (and many people may disagree with me here) is that while it was and still is the darkest chapter in Pakistan's history, the Eastern wing was a strategic, logistical and geographical nightmare for Pakistan. Ideally, Bangladesh should have been given independence peacefully. But we all know that was unlikely.

But can you imagine if Bangladesh was part of Pakistan today? It would have been a nightmare on all counts. Pakistan can barely handle its economy as it is. Governing a 165 million strong wing with high population density, rampant poverty, income inequality and a propensity to suffer from dangerous natural disasters --that also BTW lies on the opposite side of your enemy-- would have been a massive problem for Pakistan.

On top of that, Bangladesh is in for some truly dangerous times ahead due to the effects of climate change. Times that will test the limits of the government's capacity.
 
For two years Indian military chiefs and politicians have been threatening war with Pakistan through inflammatory official statements. Do you not read the news or just choose to be ignore it?

Politicians will even say they'll invade Russia to drum up nationalism and get them votes. Means nothing.

And coming to the chief's statement. He basically said "If government gives orders , they'll reclaim POK". As you can see....a token statement to a question asked the press. He can't say "No we won't" right? :))

https://m.economictimes.com/news/de...hief-mukund-naravane/articleshow/73201632.cms
 
The thing most people fail to realize about 1971 (and many people may disagree with me here) is that while it was and still is the darkest chapter in Pakistan's history, the Eastern wing was a strategic, logistical and geographical nightmare for Pakistan. Ideally, Bangladesh should have been given independence peacefully. But we all know that was unlikely.

But can you imagine if Bangladesh was part of Pakistan today? It would have been a nightmare on all counts. Pakistan can barely handle its economy as it is. Governing a 165 million strong wing with high population density, rampant poverty, income inequality and a propensity to suffer from dangerous natural disasters --that also BTW lies on the opposite side of your enemy-- would have been a massive problem for Pakistan.

On top of that, Bangladesh is in for some truly dangerous times ahead due to the effects of climate change. Times that will test the limits of the government's capacity.

It would've been a disaster if Bangladesh (former East Pakistan) was part of Pakistan today.

From memory, no nation has been seperated by another nation to the point no border is shared. It's logistically, politically, and economically, nigh on impossible. Even the Russians gave up on what is now Alaska.

71 was a blessing in disguise, and proof India cannot do jack, even when Pakistan's military was spread thin. I mean, why boast about 1B population when a handful couldn't take back PoK then?

India is only good at one thing, sabre rattling. 71 might be a dark chapter in Pakistan's history, but 47 revealed how weak India was when India was carved into 2 with nothing but a pen and paper.
 
It would've been a disaster if Bangladesh (former East Pakistan) was part of Pakistan today.

From memory, no nation has been seperated by another nation to the point no border is shared. It's logistically, politically, and economically, nigh on impossible. Even the Russians gave up on what is now Alaska.

71 was a blessing in disguise, and proof India cannot do jack, even when Pakistan's military was spread thin. I mean, why boast about 1B population when a handful couldn't take back PoK then?

India is only good at one thing, sabre rattling. 71 might be a dark chapter in Pakistan's history, but 47 revealed how weak India was when India was carved into 2 with nothing but a pen and paper.

India was never a "nation" or "one county" to begin with.

Historically, there has always been some war within local rajas or sultans. If people actually put some effort to consider the history then it all would make greater sense.

Even Mughals at their height couldn't really dominate the whole region for a decent amount of time.

2020 minus 1947 is only 73 years. So don't be surprised if within some decades India gets further divided. The fascist government of India isn't certainly helping the grand scheme of things.

Don't get emotional fellas, I don't have any fantasies to invade India or rule its open air toilets... just trying to provide an objective context...
 
India was never a "nation" or "one county" to begin with.

Historically, there has always been some war within local rajas or sultans. If people actually put some effort to consider the history then it all would make greater sense.

Even Mughals at their height couldn't really dominate the whole region for a decent amount of time.

2020 minus 1947 is only 73 years. So don't be surprised if within some decades India gets further divided. The fascist government of India isn't certainly helping the grand scheme of things.

Don't get emotional fellas, I don't have any fantasies to invade India or rule its open air toilets... just trying to provide an objective context...

I agree with you that India was never a nation to begin with, but a sub-continent of different identities and nationalities that could constitute many more nation states today if they had the free-hand to do so.

That said, the India of today is no longer that same sub-continent of different nationalities, just as Pakistan is not. Granted, India is a melting pot of different cultures that may often seem at odds with the Indian state, but the Indian state has been largely successful in being able to neutralize secessionist movements through a combination of force and political engagement. The only insurgency of note that continues to this day is the one in Occupied Kashmir. The insurgencies in Punjab, Assam, Manipur and the infamous Red Corridor are low level insurgencies that do not pose the same risk to internal security that they did in say the 1980s.

Furthermore, India has come to a point where it is simply too big to fail. Despite all its shortcomings in human development and income equality, the country is a massive market with a huge economy and one of the largest militaries in the world. The chances of it falling apart cannot be considered realistic.
 
British India or Republic of India, these are just semantics. Fact is borders defined and confined 'India' and these borders were redrawn in 47.
 
I agree with you that India was never a nation to begin with, but a sub-continent of different identities and nationalities that could constitute many more nation states today if they had the free-hand to do so.

That said, the India of today is no longer that same sub-continent of different nationalities, just as Pakistan is not. Granted, India is a melting pot of different cultures that may often seem at odds with the Indian state, but the Indian state has been largely successful in being able to neutralize secessionist movements through a combination of force and political engagement. The only insurgency of note that continues to this day is the one in Occupied Kashmir. The insurgencies in Punjab, Assam, Manipur and the infamous Red Corridor are low level insurgencies that do not pose the same risk to internal security that they did in say the 1980s.

Furthermore, India has come to a point where it is simply too big to fail. Despite all its shortcomings in human development and income equality, the country is a massive market with a huge economy and one of the largest militaries in the world. The chances of it falling apart cannot be considered realistic.

Same thing was said about USSR (and every other 'too big to fail' country, empire, company, heck even families).

Indian government has already started taking out bricks* out of an already delicate foundation.

*The Kashmiri and the farmers' bill. Especially the farmers' protest will be a litmus test for India, contrary to what the liar media and trolls living in yuppi land are saying, these farmers are pretty serious. They have seen what the fascist government have done to IOK and are protecting their way of life and families' future.

I believe economy is the strongest motivator. Even greater than religion, personal beliefs in most cases.

PS: Where are all those RSS manlet squadrons at? Sardars are in Dehli! why don't they come get some? Or are they only like to beat up old and malnourished Muslims with police right by their side?

https://youtu.be/vCC1v5ZGZIc?t=188
 
From memory, no nation has been seperated by another nation to the point no border is shared. It's logistically, politically, and economically, nigh on impossible. Even the Russians gave up on what is now Alaska.

AAlaska doesn't share a boundary with mainland USA.
 
Back
Top