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"India can't be regarded a great team till they start winning in places like NZ, England": M Vaughan

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"India can't be regarded a great team till they start winning in places like NZ, England": M Vaughan

The ‘outside’ voices have started to grow louder as Virat Kohli and Co. once again put up an ordinary batting performance in the ongoing Test series against New Zealand on Saturday. The top-ranked side in Test cricket – India were bundled out for 242 runs on the opening day of the second Test at the Hagley Oval, Christchurch. Criticizing India for their poor batting performance in the must-win encounter, former England captain Michael Vaughan tears into Kohli and Co after their meek show in Christchurch.

Expressing his views on his official Twitter handle, Vaughan said that India need to start winning in England and New Zealand to be counted among the greatest teams ever to play cricket. He wrote: “NZ giving India a lesson in how to play in conditions where the ball moves through the air … They can’t be regarded as a great team till they start winning in places like NZ & England .. #NZvsIND”

Inviting India to bat first on a green top, fast bowler Kyle Jamieson scalped five wickets to bowl out India for 242. For visitors, Prithvi Shaw, Cheteshwar Pujara and Hanuma Vihari scored half-centuries but failed to convert them into big scores as the hosts dominated the proceedings on the first day.

Mayank Agarwal, Virat Kohli, Ajinkya Rahane and Ravindra Jadeja failed with the bat and were dismissed in single digits scores. Wicketkeeper-batsman Rishabh Pant, who was once again given the nod ahead of Wriddhiman Saha, manage only 12 runs.

Skipper Kohli’s poor form continued as he once again became Tim Southee’s bunny as the pacer dismissed him for the record 10th time in international cricket.

In response to India’s total, New Zealand were 63/0 at Stumps on day one. Opener Tom Latham and Tom Blundell mixed caution with aggression as they blunted out the Indian pace attack easily in the final session. India, on the other hand, had earlier lost six wickets in the session after Tea — from 194/4, they went to 242 all-out in no time.

India had earlier lost the opening Test vs New Zealand at Basin Reserve by 10 wickets after twin batting failures.

https://www.india.com/sports/cricke...team-india-cant-be-regarded-as-great-3957579/
 
It's accepted that India are the number 1 team and that isn't an ATG team. How many times do people have to repeat they need to this and that to be a great team? They will be remembered for their home dominance which is phenomenal. But the debate about them being an ATG team is finished.

If I was India I would look at turning over Rahane, Ashwin (outside of Asia), Yadav, and potentially Shami. Time to start a new cycle before all their players leave at once.
 
[MENTION=131701]Mamoon[/MENTION] bhai and some of the indian fans in shambles. The delusion of lumber 1 ATG GOAT Asian team getting shattered spectacularly. :sree
 
Don't need to be ATG etc.We are still the best of the current lot
 
That is a fact. India are no doubt the #1 test team right now, but they can't be regarded as a great(a team that is remembered generations like WI of the 80s or Australia of the 2000s) team until they start winning away.
 
I think sometimes when a team or player is doing well, we expect them to be ATGs or something more. Every team ir ayer has limits. This Indian team limit is being the best of this era which is respectable. Shouldn't downplay their achievements.
 
There are only 3 great sides in recent history.

1. West Indies of the 80's
2. Australia of 2000's
3. South Africa from 2007-2014

No other team comes close to the sides mentioned above.
 
Saurav said:
Don't need to be ATG etc.We are still the best of the current lot
Click to expand...

That’s fine

But many Indian fans have been claiming for a year that this India side is the 3rd best after WI 80s and Australia 2000s.

In my opinion this is not even the best Indian team in our lifetimes and the India 2008-2010 side was better
 
Hasan123 said:
I think sometimes when a team or player is doing well, we expect them to be ATGs or something more. Every team ir ayer has limits. This Indian team limit is being the best of this era which is respectable. Shouldn't downplay their achievements.
Click to expand...

It is a weak era characterized by home dominance, and India leads the pack in that.
 
Heisenberg111 said:
There are only 3 great sides in recent history.

1. West Indies of the 80's
2. Australia of 2000's
3. South Africa from 2007-2014

No other team comes close to the sides mentioned above.
Click to expand...

How many series SA won in subcontinent in that period? (excluding BD)
 
Slog said:
That’s fine

But many Indian fans have been claiming for a year that this India side is the 3rd best after WI 80s and Australia 2000s.

In my opinion this is not even the best Indian team in our lifetimes and the India 2008-2010 side was better
Click to expand...

Definitely that Indian team was better.Drew in SA,Won in Eng,NZ and lost 2-1 in Aus under controversial circumstances.Definitely fought there too
 
Saurav said:
India of 2007-10 did better.Won in Eng,NZ and drew in SA
Click to expand...

You do realize that South Africa was unbeaten away for 9 years from 2006-2015? Not losing an away series for 9 years is something India can only dream of.
 
I don't think baring Kohli and Shastri anyone, including the Indian team players, think that this is some great team. On technicalities of points, they may be no:1 ranked team but if each team was to play series against every other team home and away, then I would assume Australia followed by England will win more series than other teams.
 
India lost in England and South Africa. They will likely lose in NZ too. They only won in Australia.

India are a legendary home team and an average away team. That's probably the best way to describe them currently.
 
happydavy said:
I don't think baring Kohli and Shastri anyone, including the Indian team players, think that this is some great team. On technicalities of points, they may be no:1 ranked team but if each team was to play series against every other team home and away, then I would assume Australia followed by England will win more series than other teams.
Click to expand...

Aus lost in India.England were whitewashed
 
India are still #1 in Test currently. However, this series proved that they shouldn't be compared to great Aussie side of 2000's or great Caribbean side of 80's.
 
Saurav said:
But they were losing at home to Aus and Eng
Click to expand...

That's fine, losing home series once in a while. If you want to be no:1 only based upon statistical technicalities then fine win as many hone series you want but if you want to be called a great team then anyday I would prefer a team that has more balanced record than just winning at home. Federer won't be Federer or nadal won't be nadal had they not won on all 4 surfaces. It's fine if nadal looses french open once in a while, it's important that he wins on all the surfaces.
 
Saurav said:
Aus lost in India.England were whitewashed
Click to expand...

And so? Pls read my comment. I said if each team is to play each team home and away then Australia and england will end up with more series victories than India.
 
happydavy said:
That's fine, losing home series once in a while. If you want to be no:1 only based upon statistical technicalities then fine win as many hone series you want but if you want to be called a great team then anyday I would prefer a team that has more balanced record than just winning at home. Federer won't be Federer or nadal won't be nadal had they not won on all 4 surfaces. It's fine if nadal looses french open once in a while, it's important that he wins on all the surfaces.
Click to expand...

How is losing home series okay but losing away series not? :))
 
happydavy said:
And so? Pls read my comment. I said if each team is to play each team home and away then Australia and england will end up with more series victories than India.
Click to expand...

And that assumption is based on what?
 
Saurav said:
How is losing home series okay but losing away series not? :))
Click to expand...

Last attempt at explaining this, tho I will give India a better chance to win against NZ than you understanding this part. I said winning home series once in a while is ok if you are winning abroad series. It's a comparative statement - 10 home wins and 0 away series wins in 20 series vs. 8 home wins and 8 away series. Now this is purely illustrative so don't hound me that why have I used this example
 
The reason, they are no.1 now and weren't no.1 in the 90's is that 90's was a much stronger era. Teams used to win away from home, so India had no chance of being no.1 back then.
 
hitthestump said:
Maybe India need another billion population and to be even more of a resource hog to finally reach ATG status?
Click to expand...

If population and not prosperity is the criteria for sporting success then Pakistan shouldn't loose to Bangladesh as often as they do.
 
Hasan123 said:
They are number 1 now. They can also win more away series than other teams.
Click to expand...

The reason, they are no.1 now and weren't no.1 in the 90's is that 90's was a much stronger era. Teams used to win away from home, so India had no chance of being no.1 back then.
 
happydavy said:
If population and not prosperity is the criteria for sporting success then Pakistan shouldn't loose to Bangladesh as often as they do.
Click to expand...

How many time has Pakistan lost to Bangladesh? and how many times they have won?
 
happydavy said:
Last attempt at explaining this, tho I will give India a better chance to win against NZ than you understanding this part. I said winning home series once in a while is ok if you are winning abroad series. It's a comparative statement - 10 home wins and 0 away series wins in 20 series vs. 8 home wins and 8 away series. Now this is purely illustrative so don't hound me that why have I used this example
Click to expand...

But did SA win that much away anyway?They won in Pak and SL once each but only drew in India. And that was a weak SL team IIRC
 
hitthestump said:
Maybe India need another billion population and to be even more of a resource hog to finally reach ATG status?
Click to expand...

I'm sure young kids in developed nations like Eng,NZ have better access to facilities for development
 
Heisenberg111 said:
The reason, they are no.1 now and weren't no.1 in the 90's is that 90's was a much stronger era. Teams used to win away from home, so India had no chance of being no.1 back then.
Click to expand...

Teams used to win away but couldn't in India right?So that makes home dominance not all that easy.

Also India is way more competitive overseas now.Then it was Sachin or bust
 
Seems like them comments have hurt a certain so called Pakistani more then the Indians.
 
Saurav said:
Teams used to win away but couldn't in India right?So that makes home dominance not all that easy.

Also India is way more competitive overseas now.Then it was Sachin or bust
Click to expand...

In the 90's teams used to win away, but this is an era of home dominance. No one seems to win in alien conditions anymore. So if you ask me the Indian team of the 90's did very well to build a fortress at home in an era which was very competitive and winning away was normal..
 
Slog said:
That’s fine

But many Indian fans have been claiming for a year that this India side is the 3rd best after WI 80s and Australia 2000s.

In my opinion this is not even the best Indian team in our lifetimes and the India 2008-2010 side was better
Click to expand...

3rd best after WI and Aus.... LOL

We are losing to NZ 2/0, will most likely lose to Aus as well... Same fate in Eng....

That's 3 countries that can or will beat us at home... Apart from this India will win everything

Now I won't call it a ATG team, it's at best a No. 1 or 2 or 3 in the current set up...
 
I dont think its even a debate.

India has just one batsman with average of over 50 (Min 20 test) and not a single pacer with avg of under 25 (Min 100 wkts). Spinners Ashwin and Jadeja are great at home but nothing much to mention in their overseas record.

You cant be a great time with just one great player.

Yes India has been overall better than the others and that is why they have been number one.
 
leg-side-flick said:
3rd best after WI and Aus.... LOL

We are losing to NZ 2/0, will most likely lose to Aus as well... Same fate in Eng....

That's 3 countries that can or will beat us at home... Apart from this India will win everything

Now I won't call it a ATG team, it's at best a No. 1 or 2 or 3 in the current set up...
Click to expand...

you forgot about South Africa. SA will also beat this Indian team at home.
 
Man I wish we could see a Pak v Ind 5 test match series.

Even after Misbah/Yk and with current bunch of noobs, we'd still bring da ruckus!

lols at people who compare this team to WIs of 80s/Aussies of 00s :yk
 
WhenSultansBowled said:
Man I wish we could see a Pak v Ind 5 test match series.

Even after Misbah/Yk and with current bunch of noobs, we'd still bring da ruckus!

lols at people who compare this team to WIs of 80s/Aussies of 00s :yk
Click to expand...

Bhai hum jaise bhi hai, tumhare liye kafi hai....

Aus / England / NZ hamaare liye out of syllabus hai magar Pak ke matches woh topic hai, jo Kohli ko passing marks dilayega
 
WhenSultansBowled said:
Man I wish we could see a Pak v Ind 5 test match series.

Even after Misbah/Yk and with current bunch of noobs, we'd still bring da ruckus!

lols at people who compare this team to WIs of 80s/Aussies of 00s :yk
Click to expand...

lol India will beat Pak anywhere easily
 
aloo paratha said:
That is a fact. India are no doubt the #1 test team right now, but they can't be regarded as a great(a team that is remembered generations like WI of the 80s or Australia of the 2000s) team until they start winning away.
Click to expand...
India will never come even close to the great West Indies and Australian teams.I doubt if any team will ever have the same number of fast bowlers as the WI of late 1970s and early 1980.
 
Anyone who watches Aus of 2000s operate would know India isnt in the same league
 
Saurav said:
lol India will beat Pak anywhere easily
Click to expand...

Test Cricket is the pinnacle of the game. Test Cricket in England in particular is the pinnacle of the game. You get excellent crowd attendances and the Dukes ball often produces a good even contest between bat and ball. England is widely regarded as the home of our great game. Below I compare India and Pakistan in Test Cricket in England over their last 8 Test Matches on these shores over the last decade. It makes for fascinating reading. Neither side have met in Test Cricket since the Indian Premier League started and we have had 12 seasons of that now. It has been that long. However, we can therefore compare them through other ways. And their recent Test Match results in England is one way of doing that. England is picked out of all places because it is the home of the game as mentioned previously. And after all, it is the chosen host country of the inaugural World Test Championship final in the English home summer after next.

Pakistan’s Last 8 Test Results in England.

Leeds Test 2018 = Lost.
Lord’s Test 2018 = Won.
Oval Test 2016 = Won.
Edgbaston Test 2016 = Lost.
Old Trafford Test 2016 = Lost.
Lord’s Test 2016 = Won.
Lord’s Test 2010 = Lost.
Oval Test 2010 = Won.

India’s Last 8 Test Results in England.

Oval Test 2018 = Lost.
Southampton Test 2018 = Lost.
Trent Bridge Test 2018 = Won.
Lord’s Test 2018 = Lost.
Edgbaston Test 2018 = Lost.
Oval Test 2014 = Lost.
Old Trafford Test 2014 = Lost.
Southampton Test 2014 = Lost.

Pakistan have won four of their last eight Test appearances in this country whereas India have lost seven of their last eight. Some may argue that India’s current number 1 ranking in Test Cricket is unjustified given their abysmal track record in England of losing 11 of their last 14 Tests in England. Doing well in Test Cricket in England is often the barometer in judging Test Match success as it is such a unique and special place to play Test Cricket given the challenges the varying conditions present and the high profile interest and coverage the format attracts in this part of the world. You want to do well here more than perhaps anywhere else in the world as a visiting Test cricketer or team.
 
BoomBoomCricket said:
Test Cricket is the pinnacle of the game. Test Cricket in England in particular is the pinnacle of the game. You get excellent crowd attendances and the Dukes ball often produces a good even contest between bat and ball. England is widely regarded as the home of our great game. Below I compare India and Pakistan in Test Cricket in England over their last 8 Test Matches on these shores over the last decade. It makes for fascinating reading. Neither side have met in Test Cricket since the Indian Premier League started and we have had 12 seasons of that now. It has been that long. However, we can therefore compare them through other ways. And their recent Test Match results in England is one way of doing that. England is picked out of all places because it is the home of the game as mentioned previously. And after all, it is the chosen host country of the inaugural World Test Championship final in the English home summer after next.

Pakistan’s Last 8 Test Results in England.

Leeds Test 2018 = Lost.
Lord’s Test 2018 = Won.
Oval Test 2016 = Won.
Edgbaston Test 2016 = Lost.
Old Trafford Test 2016 = Lost.
Lord’s Test 2016 = Won.
Lord’s Test 2010 = Lost.
Oval Test 2010 = Won.

India’s Last 8 Test Results in England.

Oval Test 2018 = Lost.
Southampton Test 2018 = Lost.
Trent Bridge Test 2018 = Won.
Lord’s Test 2018 = Lost.
Edgbaston Test 2018 = Lost.
Oval Test 2014 = Lost.
Old Trafford Test 2014 = Lost.
Southampton Test 2014 = Lost.

Pakistan have won four of their last eight Test appearances in this country whereas India have lost seven of their last eight. Some may argue that India’s current number 1 ranking in Test Cricket is unjustified given their abysmal track record in England of losing 11 of their last 14 Tests in England. Doing well in Test Cricket in England is often the barometer in judging Test Match success as it is such a unique and special place to play Test Cricket given the challenges the varying conditions present and the high profile interest and coverage the format attracts in this part of the world. You want to do well here more than perhaps anywhere else in the world as a visiting Test cricketer or team.
Click to expand...

lol England because you did well there :))

When was the last time Pak won/drew a Test ,forget series in Aus :msd

Anyway even in England,this current Pak team sans YK/Misbah it should favour India provided both teams are full strength
 
Artaxerxes said:
India will never come even close to the great West Indies and Australian teams.I doubt if any team will ever have the same number of fast bowlers as the WI of late 1970s and early 1980.
Click to expand...

Yes but some think they already are of that calibre.
 
lmao this is the same Michael Vaughan who was saying India are the only team who can challenge Aus in Aus after the first Aus-NZ Test and how great that series would be.

Clown 🤡
 
India in Test Cricket

Last Home series vs:

England = Won (2016)
Australia = Won (2017)
South Africa = Won (2019)
New Zealand = Won (2016)
West Indies = Won (2018)
Sri Lanka = Won (2017)
Pakistan = Won (2007)
Zimbabwe = Won (2002)
Bangladesh = Won (2019)

Last Away series vs:

Sri Lanka = Won (2017)
West Indies = Won (2019)
Zimbabwe = Won (2005)
Bangladesh = Drew (2015)
England = Lost (2018)
Australia = Won (2018-19)
South Africa = Lost (2018)
New Zealand = Lost (2014)
Pakistan = Lost (2006)
 
Saurav said:
lol England because you did well there :))

When was the last time Pak won/drew a Test ,forget series in Aus :msd

Anyway even in England,this current Pak team sans YK/Misbah it should favour India provided both teams are full strength
Click to expand...

Tests in England have always been the best.
Pak have a far superior record than India historically and recently in England.
In London Pak would win hands down as we saw in Champs Trophy final.
In Manchester or Birmingham India would have a better chance as we saw in WC and CT pool games of 2013 and 2017.
India have only won 7 Tests in England.
Pakistan have won 12.
 
WhenSultansBowled said:
Most probably you guys will win. But then we only have to get VK!
Click to expand...

India will win because your spin bowling is poor at the moment along with batting... Fast bowling is better but in sub continental conditions it doesn't really win you a series if spin department is poor
 
sweep_shot said:
India are still #1 in Test currently. However, this series proved that they shouldn't be compared to great Aussie side of 2000's or great Caribbean side of 80's.
Click to expand...

Did this series prove it? They had to do a lot to even having any comparison with great WI or Aus side.

Getting in consideration for the best Asian side in history was not good enough to get compared with great Aus or WI sides. Gap is quite wide between those two benchmarks.
 
Buffet said:
Did this series prove it? They had to do a lot to even having any comparison with great WI or Aus side.

Getting in consideration for the best Asian side in history was not good enough to get compared with great Aus or WI sides. Gap is quite wide between those two benchmarks.
Click to expand...

Some people were claiming India were becoming an ATG team. Brian Lara called India's attack as good as West Indian attack from the 80's.

Since India failed to defeat England, South Africa, and now NZ in their backyards, India can't be called an ATG team. It is just a very good team and that's about it.
 
he is absolutely right. The toss excuse was used before. This test match in n.z proved that toss dint matter in this series.

Poor pathetic performance. I still don't think they played to their potential but regardless they need to be able to win in n.z and England to prove they are ATG worthy.

Until they do that they will just be a good to great team overall.

yes toss matters in places like England and n.z in general. Also in australia. That's a face but not the case in THIS SERIES.

India were just sub par. Poor. lethargic and terrible so far.

I hope it changes today. Hopefully india bounce back. Pace is still there. bunrah is bowling fast. shami is fast. So no excuses really. To be fair we do lack a swing bowler. bhuvi would be so Important in these conditions. bumrah shami and umesh are all hit the deck hard type bowlers.
 
Saurav said:
lol England because you did well there :))

When was the last time Pak won/drew a Test ,forget series in Aus :msd

Anyway even in England,this current Pak team sans YK/Misbah it should favour India provided both teams are full strength
Click to expand...

I'd like to see India not get defeated by an innings against the current Australia side. Winning against Australia A doesn't really make you the best team.
 
sjahmed23 said:
I'd like to see India not get defeated by an innings against the current Australia side. Winning against Australia A doesn't really make you the best team.
Click to expand...

india will always play well in australia and south africa. Winning there is possible.

England and n.z are India's weakness. Swing. They don't play county games like Pakistani cricketers. They don't need to because they make more money in India. :yuvi
 
sweep_shot said:
Some people were claiming India were becoming an ATG team. Brian Lara called India's attack as good as West Indian attack from the 80's.
Click to expand...

Who are those people? I have seen 1 or 2 posters making this ridiculous claim about comparing Indian side to great WI or Aus team. Most posters are rational enough to not make such absurd claims.

I don't think Lara claimed that Indian attack is as good as WI great attack. He said Indian attack reminded him about great WI attack based on how they perrformed in the last 1 year. I could be worng, but that's what I recall.
 
Hasan123 said:
It's accepted that India are the number 1 team and that isn't an ATG team. How many times do people have to repeat they need to this and that to be a great team? They will be remembered for their home dominance which is phenomenal. But the debate about them being an ATG team is finished.

If I was India I would look at turning over Rahane, Ashwin (outside of Asia), Yadav, and potentially Shami. Time to start a new cycle before all their players leave at once.
Click to expand...

You're always the first one who comes defending and moaing whenever IND's quality is questioned.

Calm down.

You don't have to become a BCCI spokesperson. We get it.

And PAK is also the #1 ranked team in another format. What's your point here? Rankings mean nothing.

A Test match tomorrow b/w IND and PAK at Rawalpindi, 80-20 PAK will win it, because of the better bowlng.

So, stop trying to defend IND everywhere, have some self-respect or better yet respect for your Test team, which at this stage is much better.
 
Hawkeye said:
You're always the first one who comes defending and moaing whenever IND's quality is questioned.

Calm down.

You don't have to become a BCCI spokesperson. We get it.

And PAK is also the #1 ranked team in another format. What's your point here? Rankings mean nothing.

A Test match tomorrow b/w IND and PAK at Rawalpindi, 80-20 PAK will win it, because of the better bowlng.

So, stop trying to defend IND everywhere, have some self-respect or better yet respect for your Test team, which at this stage is much better.
Click to expand...

Anywhere in the sub continent, India will win. Rawalpindi or madraspindi makes no difference. India's bowling is superior in all facets of the game. Pakistan have not proved anything of note vs quality opposition. Win some tests away and prove ypur abilities before you overrate your bowling attack which I repeat, is inferior to India's. Has potential but still inferior.
 
Last edited:
I agree with what he says. Losing in New Zealand for this team is unacceptable. We'll have to win the 2nd Test and draw the series to justify our ranking in Test cricket.
 
I don’t think any Indian fans think this team is a ATG team. Look at some of the players , looks like they are still under transition.
But fact is india is #1 team and atleast confident of saying it and defeating teams away. So they deserve it.
But Pakistan inspite of being #1 in t20 think other teams are favourites in this year World Cup. Atleast be confident that you deserved it
 
globalcitizen said:
I don’t think any Indian fans think this team is a ATG team. Look at some of the players , looks like they are still under transition.
But fact is india is #1 team and atleast confident of saying it and defeating teams away. So they deserve it.
But Pakistan inspite of being #1 in t20 think other teams are favourites in this year World Cup. Atleast be confident that you deserved it
Click to expand...

I think Indian team has 3-4 batsmen who are pretty new.
 
As an Indian fan, I dont see nothing wrong in his words. A great team should be able to win in all conditions(or most of it) just like how 80's Windies and 2000's Aussies did. However, that doesn't make India's No:1 undeserving in this era where everyone struggles outside their familiar condtions.
 
Buffet said:
I think Indian team has 3-4 batsmen who are pretty new.
Click to expand...

Yes so any sane person will say they are not team to be compared to great teams of yesteryears. I wonder who said Vaughan this and why is this even a criteria to be ranked #1?
 
Predicting the future performance of any teams in any conditions and even predicting results between teams who have not played a test match since 2007(Ind v Pak) is quite illogical,

Srilanka winning test series in South Africa and India winning in Australia shows that reputation,past records,current rankings are not always right,you have to play good consistent cricket through out the test match and series to win it.that is what makes test match victories so special

You have to win the test matches to prove it,form rankings reputation past records only gives you the confidence not a win
 
ICC should ban India and Kohli from playing test cricket overseas
 
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