"India can't be regarded a great team till they start winning in places like NZ, England": M Vaughan

[Ab Fan]

This is a no.1 team in the world from past 5 years but still not a great team by any stretch of imagination.

The fact that we have a 43 averaging batsmen playing for us from past 7-8 years and has played 65 tests and is nowhere close to be seen as dropped from this squad tells us all we have to know about their batting.

Indian team post 2002 was better. Only Kohli would walk into that batting lineup and Zaheer and Kumble will still walk into this lineup pairing with Bumrah and Ishant overseas and Shami and Umesh at home.

 

[Ozymandiasza]

he is absolutely right. The toss excuse was used before. This test match in n.z proved that toss dint matter in this series.

Poor pathetic performance. I still don't think they played to their potential but regardless they need to be able to win in n.z and England to prove they are ATG worthy.

Until they do that they will just be a good to great team overall.

yes toss matters in places like England and n.z in general. Also in australia. That's a face but not the case in THIS SERIES.

India were just sub par. Poor. lethargic and terrible so far.

I hope it changes today. Hopefully india bounce back. Pace is still there. bunrah is bowling fast. shami is fast. So no excuses really. To be fair we do lack a swing bowler. bhuvi would be so Important in these conditions. bumrah shami and umesh are all hit the deck hard type bowlers.

Funny, you were the only one spewing the toss rubbish.

You also boldly declared: "It is by far the greatest Asian team of all time, the GOAT home/fortress winners of all time and the third greatest team of all time."

I'm glad you've learned from your arrogance.

 

[Mamoon]

Absolutely nonsense by Vaughan.

India does not have to win in XYZ countries to prove why they are the best Test team in the world and the best Asian Test team of all time.

 

[leg-side-flick]

A Test match tomorrow b/w IND and PAK at Rawalpindi, 80-20 PAK will win it, because of the better bowlng.

This team is far from being a ATG but it's been the no. 1 team for last few years, and it's arguably the best test team currently if all conditions are taken into context...

This tells you more about every other team than India.

 

[Ozymandiasza]

Absolutely nonsense by Vaughan.

India does not have to win in XYZ countries to prove why they are the best Test team in the world and the best Asian Test team of all time.

Yes, they do. They aren't exempt simply because you like them.

 

[tyron_woodley]

Funny, you were the only one spewing the toss rubbish.

You also boldly declared: "It is by far the greatest Asian team of all time, the GOAT home/fortress winners of all time and the third greatest team of all time."

I'm glad you've learned from your arrogance.

it is still a fortress at home. Make no mistake about it. They would still demolish all teams in home conditions. Just not good enough yet in swing conditions. They are still the best ATG home track bullies of all time.

this team would absolutely annihilate any team in India.

 

[Mamoon]

Absolutely nonsense by Vaughan.

India does not have to win in XYZ countries to prove why they are the best Test team in the world and the best Asian Test team of all time.

Absolute*

 

[Mamoon]

Yes, they do. They aren't exempt simply because you like them.

I like Vaughan’s team more than India, but Vaughan is a clown.

To be the best, you don’t have to be perfect or invincible. There are holes in every team. However, you have to be relatively better than your competitors.

India may not be perfect away from home, but they are still better than others and are ridiculously superior at home. That is why they fully deserve the number 1 ranking.

Furthermore, they have already achieved more than other Asian Test teams of the past.

 

[Mobashir]

I like Vaughan’s team more than India, but Vaughan is a clown.

To be the best, you don’t have to be perfect or invincible. There are holes in every team. However, you have to be relatively better than your competitors.

India may not be perfect away from home, but they are still better than others and are ridiculously superior at home. That is why they fully deserve the number 1 ranking.

Furthermore, they have already achieved more than other Asian Test teams of the past.

What vaughan said:
"NZ giving India a lesson in how to play in conditions where the ball moves through the air … They can’t be regarded as a great team till they start winning in places like NZ & England .. #NZvsIND”

Maybe you start making the difference between what he said and what you are answering to. He didn't said India isn't the best team but that India isn't a great team.

 

[Junaids]

Don't need to be ATG etc.We are still the best of the current lot

That is a fact. India are no doubt the #1 test team right now, but they can't be regarded as a great(a team that is remembered generations like WI of the 80s or Australia of the 2000s) team until they start winning away.

Not at all.

India were the best team when Australia had their only good batsmen banned.

Now India are a very, very distant second behind Australia.

 

[tyron_woodley]

Not at all.

India were the best team when Australia had their only good batsmen banned.

Now India are a very, very distant second behind Australia.

until australia beats india in India they are never going to be number 1. India will annihilate them in India. India will beat australia in australia if they win the toss. India sucks vs swing and seam. India is still good in Australian and south african conditions. Pakistan are a distant 4th best team.

 

[leg-side-flick]

Not at all.

India were the best team when Australia had their only good batsmen banned.

Now India are a very, very distant second behind Australia.

That is if the match is being played in Australia, if the aussies come over to India then again there is only one winner

 

[Ab Fan]

Not at all.

India were the best team when Australia had their only good batsmen banned.

Now India are a very, very distant second behind Australia.

Only after Australia proves it by winning in sub continent.

 

[Ozymandiasza]

I like Vaughan’s team more than India, but Vaughan is a clown.

To be the best, you don’t have to be perfect or invincible. There are holes in every team. However, you have to be relatively better than your competitors.

India may not be perfect away from home, but they are still better than others and are ridiculously superior at home. That is why they fully deserve the number 1 ranking.

Furthermore, they have already achieved more than other Asian Test teams of the past.

I'm also not a Vaughan fan, I think he's just repeating what has been said many times by many people: India really should work on their away record. If they do that India could be a juggernaut probably equal to the ATG Aussies.

To be honest, I think their ridiculous home record forces the hand of the universe to equalise things when they tour (regression towards the mean). I think they should start losing at home to have a better away record

 

[leg-side-flick]

To be honest, I think their ridiculous home record forces the hand of the universe to equalise things when they tour (regression towards the mean). I think they should start losing at home to have a better away record

Ha ha... Good one

 

[Saurav]

Not at all.

India were the best team when Australia had their only good batsmen banned.

Now India are a very, very distant second behind Australia.

Australia lost in India with that batsman included.They lost the Ashes too

India still faced a full bowling attack.Smith and Warner's absence had no bearing on Pujara scoring 193,or Kohli and Agrawal doing well in that series

 

[Saurav]

I'm also not a Vaughan fan, I think he's just repeating what has been said many times by many people: India really should work on their away record. If they do that India could be a juggernaut probably equal to the ATG Aussies.

To be honest, I think their ridiculous home record forces the hand of the universe to equalise things when they tour (regression towards the mean). I think they should start losing at home to have a better away record

India of 2007-10 didn't win that much at home but won in Eng,NZ drew in SA

 

[Mamoon]

What vaughan said:
"NZ giving India a lesson in how to play in conditions where the ball moves through the air … They can’t be regarded as a great team till they start winning in places like NZ & England .. #NZvsIND”

Maybe you start making the difference between what he said and what you are answering to. He didn't said India isn't the best team but that India isn't a great team.

Vaughan doesn’t set the terms for what makes a team “great”. It is an open ended term that can be interpreted in multiple ways.

 

[Saurav]

I'd like to see India not get defeated by an innings against the current Australia side. Winning against Australia A doesn't really make you the best team.

Which bowlers were they missing

 

[watson367]

Vaughan doesn’t set the terms for what makes a team “great”. It is an open ended term that can be interpreted in multiple ways.

You can’t set the terms either. Vaughan is entitled to his own opinion, just like you are entitled to your own. This Indian team is good but, is not great. In another era,they would’ve been 3rd or 4th

 

[leg-side-flick]

This Indian team is good but, is not great. In another era,they would’ve been 3rd or 4th

Exactly and in this era they are no 1 even after losing in NZ / England and potentially in Aus later this year because everyone else is worse

 

[Energy]

In a time where few teams play almost double the amount of cricket in a year than others, how can you possibly compare against different eras? Some countries have a 2 month home season, others have 6 months.

Only meaningful way to compare across eras is the amount of trophies won i.e. World Cups. No other statistic will give you any comparison.

 

[Hasan123]

You're always the first one who comes defending and moaing whenever IND's quality is questioned.

Calm down.

You don't have to become a BCCI spokesperson. We get it.

And PAK is also the #1 ranked team in another format. What's your point here? Rankings mean nothing.

A Test match tomorrow b/w IND and PAK at Rawalpindi, 80-20 PAK will win it, because of the better bowlng.

So, stop trying to defend IND everywhere, have some self-respect or better yet respect for your Test team, which at this stage is much better.

Lol what I am saying is the truth though. It is known and accepted they arent an ATG team so why talk about them being a great team?

You can't talk about being a spokesperson. Your Misbah personal spokesman. You defend his awful selections .

 

[Rana]

Vaughan doesn’t set the terms for what makes a team “great”. It is an open ended term that can be interpreted in multiple ways.

You say this because it doesn’t suit the narrative that you are trying to force down on this forum.

 

[Junaids]

until australia beats india in India they are never going to be number 1. India will annihilate them in India. India will beat australia in australia if they win the toss. India sucks vs swing and seam. India is still good in Australian and south african conditions. Pakistan are a distant 4th best team.

That is if the match is being played in Australia, if the aussies come over to India then again there is only one winner

Only after Australia proves it by winning in sub continent.

But compare how both teams perform away.

England 4 India 1
England 2 Australia 2

New Zealand 2 India 0 (we are about to find out...)
New Zealand 0 Australia 2

Australia is clearly a far stronger team than India.

 

[Ab Fan]

But compare how both teams perform away.

England 4 India 1
England 2 Australia 2

New Zealand 2 India 0 (we are about to find out...)
New Zealand 0 Australia 2

Australia is clearly a far stronger team than India.

India 2-0 Sri Lanka away
Australia 0-3 Sri Lanka away

India 2-1 Australia home
India 2-1 Australia away

 

[Mamoon]

You say this because it doesn’t suit the narrative that you are trying to force down on this forum.

And you agree with him because it suits your narrative.

No other team is remotely capable of being as strong at home as India is. For me, that makes India a “great” team.

 

[Geil]

The fair comparison of this current era would probably start around 2009 0r 2010 because there was increase in test match results and the use of DRS in most series actually improved umpiring standards in some series if not all in general

Seeing the statistics the benchmark of greatness that comes to mind are these two teams

South African test side from 2010s to 2013s were unbeaten at both home and away and

England test side from 2009 to 2012 in which they lost to Pakistan in UAE and also lost to south Africa in England but they beat Australia and India at home who are by far the unbeatable teams at home which in my view are very special and all time great performance

 

[Abhilash93]

But compare how both teams perform away.

England 4 India 1
England 2 Australia 2

New Zealand 2 India 0 (we are about to find out...)
New Zealand 0 Australia 2

Australia is clearly a far stronger team than India.

Aussies haven't even toured NZ in the last 4-5 years, can't really compare their results from 2015 to current NZ team. This NZ team hasn't lost a test at home after winning the toss since 2009.

And love how you conveniently omitted Aus results in the sub-continent, they can't be regarded better until they are able to win in the sub-continent.

 

[Rana]

And you agree with him because it suits your narrative.

No other team is remotely capable of being as strong at home as India is. For me, that makes India a “great” team.

My narrative? It’s basic cricket knowledge. You’ve got to be a side that can compete outside of your home territory to be considered a great team. Even a Bangladesh would pull of a drawn series against a top team at home.

Now that India are being called out, you emphasise on how they are so so good at home hence they are an ATG team.

 

[topspin]

[MENTION=131701]Mamoon[/MENTION]

Give it a rest bro.

No one is arguing that this India team is the best in red ball cricket, but they're not a great side. Even Indian fans on this thread accept this as fact.

If you're so adamant that it is an ATG team, name me one other ATG cricketer in this India test team other than Kohli? (I'm not interested in who is potentially ATG).

You claim Imran's team is inferior to Kohli's team but the fact of the matter is I can name four ATG cricketers in his test side.

As [MENTION=141114]Hasan123[/MENTION] has mentioned in the past, you need to stop overhyping anything to do with Indian cricket.

 

[Amjid Javed]

Interesting game still ahead if india can get up to 170-80 as their bowlers are capable of defending.

 

[Mamoon]

My narrative? It’s basic cricket knowledge. You’ve got to be a side that can compete outside of your home territory to be considered a great team. Even a Bangladesh would pull of a drawn series against a top team at home.

Now that India are being called out, you emphasise on how they are so so good at home hence they are an ATG team.

It is not basic cricket knowledge, it is just sour grapes. If winning matches at home was easy, others team would have been able to match India’s peerless dominance at home.

and India does compete away from home. In fact, they do it better than other sides. That is why no other team today have a stronger claim at being number 1.

 

[Mamoon]

[MENTION=131701]Mamoon[/MENTION]

Give it a rest bro.

No one is arguing that this India team is the best in red ball cricket, but they're not a great side. Even Indian fans on this thread accept this as fact.

If you're so adamant that it is an ATG team, name me one other ATG cricketer in this India test team other than Kohli? (I'm not interested in who is potentially ATG).

You claim Imran's team is inferior to Kohli's team but the fact of the matter is I can name four ATG cricketers in his test side.

As [MENTION=141114]Hasan123[/MENTION] has mentioned in the past, you need to stop overhyping anything to do with Indian cricket.

Name the XI of Imran’s Pakistan and then we can compare it to Kohli’s XI.

 

[Rana]

It is not basic cricket knowledge, it is just sour grapes. If winning matches at home was easy, others team would have been able to match India’s peerless dominance at home.

and India does compete away from home. In fact, they do it better than other sides. That is why no other team today have a stronger claim at being number 1.

When did I say winning at home is so easy? That’s something you are emphasising on to prove that India is an ATG side? I mean tell me a single analyst/ pundit/ expert/ journalist that has used the same argument as you to prove India is an ATG because of this? The same dominant side at home seem to be found wanting in conditions that slightly offer deviation? Does any expert agree with this conclusion the way you are so adamant to force down our throats?

 

[Robert]

I would say that India, Australia, NZ and England are roughly on the same level these days.

None of them are great in the way that the eighties Windies or 1996-2006 Australians were.

 

[topspin]

Name the XI of Imran’s Pakistan and then we can compare it to Kohli’s XI.

Lets cut to the chase.

I'll name the four ATG cricketers in Imran Khan's Pakistan test team:

Javed Miandad
Imran Khan
Wasim Akram
Waqar Younis

I'm no fan of IK's politics but that doesn't give me any motive to turn this into a mudslinging contest against him.

Also, I can't imagine Imran Khan's Pakistan struggling against this New Zealand team like India are.

 

[Mobashir]

Name the XI of Imran’s Pakistan and then we can compare it to Kohli’s XI.

this Indian team has one great player, Kohli, one very good test batsman : Pujara. There is no other established test class batsman in that team.
Bumrah is the only bowler who can become a name in cricket in this from this team but it's way too early for the moment.
It doesn't even compare with SA XI or England XI of 2000's, Indian XI of 2000's and many more recent teams.
I am not going to compare it to a pakistani team otherwise you will bring "bias" in it again.

Lets just compare the two indian teams:
Sehwag - Shaw
Ghambir - Agarwal
Dravid- Pujara
Tendulkar - Kohli
Laxman - Rahane
Ganguly - Vihari
Dhoni - Pant
Kumble - Jadeja
Bhaji - Ashwin
Zaheer - Shami
Whoever - Bumrah

Be serious two minutes, the current indian team is nothing other than mediocre next to the Indian team 2000's.

 

[Robert]

Lets cut to the chase.

I'll name the four ATG cricketers in Imran Khan's Pakistan test team:

Javed Miandad
Imran Khan
Wasim Akram
Waqar Younis

I'm no fan of IK's politics but that doesn't give me any motive to turn this into a mudslinging contest against him.

Also, I can't imagine Imran Khan's Pakistan struggling against this New Zealand team like India are.

Several of Imran’s boys played for County sides so were used to the moving ball as English conditions are similar to NZ.

 

[topspin]

You are a joker, this Indian team has one great player, Kohli, one very good test batsman : Pujara. There is no other established test class batsman in that team.
Bumrah is the only bowler who can become a name in cricket in this from this team but it's way too early for the moment.
It doesn't even compare with SA XI or England XI of 2000's, Indian XI of 2000's and many more recent teams.
I am not going to compare it to a pakistani team otherwise you will bring "bias" in it again.

Lets just compare the two indian teams:
Sehwag - Shaw
Ghambir - Agarwal
Dravid- Pujara
Tendulkar - Kohli
Laxman - Rahane
Ganguly - Vihari
Dhoni - Pant
Kumble - Jadeja
Bhaji - Ashwin
Zaheer - Shami
Whoever - Bumrah

Be serious two minutes, the current indian team is nothing other than mediocre next to the Indian team 2000's.

Several Indian posters have mentioned that this India test team is inferior to Ganguly's.

It's an absolute joke to compare a one-man army team that is playing sub-standard cricket in NZ to Imran's team which had four ATGs.

 

[Mamoon]

Lets cut to the chase.

I'll name the four ATG cricketers in Imran Khan's Pakistan test team:

Javed Miandad
Imran Khan
Wasim Akram
Waqar Younis

I'm no fan of IK's politics but that doesn't give me any motive to turn this into a mudslinging contest against him.

Also, I can't imagine Imran Khan's Pakistan struggling against this New Zealand team like India are.

Yes let’s cut to the case. Kohli’s India has a better batting lineup and better spin attack. Imran’s Pakistan had a better pace attack.

Kohli’s India would certainly beat Imran’s Pakistan in the subcontinent and Australia. Imran’s Pakistan might win in England though.

 

[Mobashir]

Several Indian posters have mentioned that this India test team is inferior to Ganguly's.

It's an absolute joke to compare a one-man army team that is playing sub-standard cricket in NZ to Imran's team which had four ATGs.

The only thing this indian team is better at than Ganguly's team is pace bowling. But Zaheer was as good as any current indian bowler during this period. Just that current indian team has more backups for fast bowling;

 

[Mamoon]

You are a joker, this Indian team has one great player, Kohli, one very good test batsman : Pujara. There is no other established test class batsman in that team.
Bumrah is the only bowler who can become a name in cricket in this from this team but it's way too early for the moment.
It doesn't even compare with SA XI or England XI of 2000's, Indian XI of 2000's and many more recent teams.
I am not going to compare it to a pakistani team otherwise you will bring "bias" in it again.

Lets just compare the two indian teams:
Sehwag - Shaw
Ghambir - Agarwal
Dravid- Pujara
Tendulkar - Kohli
Laxman - Rahane
Ganguly - Vihari
Dhoni - Pant
Kumble - Jadeja
Bhaji - Ashwin
Zaheer - Shami
Whoever - Bumrah

Be serious two minutes, the current indian team is nothing other than mediocre next to the Indian team 2000's.

The fact that you have to resort to calling me a joker suggests that there is anger and frustrating building up inside you, which is understandable because you have had to bear with India occupying the mace for 4 years and counting and Kohli leaving every Pakistani batsman in his dust.

However, I do not deserve to be a victim of your frustrating so if you want a reply from me in the future, please learn to address me with respect. I will not tolerate your name-calling and neither will the mods, so please don’t waste your hard work only for your post to get binned or edited.

Now I will give you my answer, even though you don’t deserve one for your lack of respect.

We are not comparing Kohli’s India with England of the 2000’s or South Africa of the late 2000s and early 2010s. I have said many times that it is debatable if Kohli’s India is the third best Test side after WI and Australia. You can make a case for them and also for other teams.

However, what is not debatable is that this Indian side is the best Asian side of all time. The rate at which they win matches cannot be undermined for so and so reasons.

You are actually comparing the wrong players to prove your point. For example, Shaw is an incredibly talented player who will go down as a great of the game, but he has only played 3 Tests so far, while India has been number 1 for years now.

India’s main openers during this period were Dhawan, Rahul and Vijay, and although Sehwag was better than all of them, the point is that you are being simply disingenuous by picking Shaw.

The difference between this Indian team and the previous one is simple. The batting is inferior outside Asia but equally effective in Asia, but the bowling attack is better everywhere.

Ashwin and Jadeja collectively match Kumble’s brilliance at home, but both of them travel better with both bat and ball.

Zaheer and Shami are arguably equal, and Bumrah is better than whoever and Ishant Sharma of today is a far, far better than Ishant Sharma of Dhoni’s team or Agarkar or RP Singh or whoever else.

 

[topspin]

Yes let’s cut to the case. Kohli’s India has a better batting lineup and better spin attack. Imran’s Pakistan had a better pace attack.

Kohli’s India would certainly beat Imran’s Pakistan in the subcontinent and Australia. Imran’s Pakistan might win in England though.

What you're forgetting is Pakistan's weaker suit (batting) was much stronger than India's weaker suit (bowling).

In addition to this Pakistan had 4 x ATG cricketers, whilst India currently just have one.

 

[Mamoon]

What you're forgetting is Pakistan's weaker suit (batting) was much stronger than India's weaker suit (bowling).

In addition to this Pakistan had 4 x ATG cricketers, whilst India currently just have one.

Number of ATGs does not really matter. Hypothetically, a team with 11 excellent (but not ATG) players will win more matches than a team of 4 ATGs but 7 average cricketers.

I am not calling Imran’s Pakistan average, but overall, this Indian side has better players when you take all 11 players into account.

I disagree with your first statement. India not only has the best batting lineup in Test cricket today but also a world class bowling unit. Bowling might be relatively weaker than batting, but it is not a weak-link by any means.

 

[topspin]

Number of ATGs does not really matter. Hypothetically, a team with 11 excellent (but not ATG) players will win more matches than a team of 4 ATGs but 7 average cricketers.

I am not calling Imran’s Pakistan average, but overall, this Indian side has better players when you take all 11 players into account.

I disagree with your first statement. India not only has the best batting lineup in Test cricket today but also a world class bowling unit. Bowling might be relatively weaker than batting, but it is not a weak-link by any means.

I disagree. You can't be a great side without having multiple ATG players, which India doesn't have.

I think you're underrating Pakistan's batting in the 80s. They wouldn't have drawn as many as four series with the WI if it wasn't world class.

 

[Mobashir]

I like Vaughan’s team more than India, but Vaughan is a clown.

To be the best, you don’t have to be perfect or invincible. There are holes in every team. However, you have to be relatively better than your competitors.

India may not be perfect away from home, but they are still better than others and are ridiculously superior at home. That is why they fully deserve the number 1 ranking.

Furthermore, they have already achieved more than other Asian Test teams of the past.

The fact that you have to resort to calling me a joker suggests that there is anger and frustrating building up inside you, which is understandable because you have had to bear with India occupying the mace for 4 years and counting and Kohli leaving every Pakistani batsman in his dust.

However, I do not deserve to be a victim of your frustrating so if you want a reply from me in the future, please learn to address me with respect. I will not tolerate your name-calling and neither will the mods, so please don’t waste your hard work only for your post to get binned or edited.

Calling someone a clown is fine but calling someone a joker is an insult?
That's another joke from you, is it?

Now I will give you my answer, even though you don’t deserve one for your lack of respect.

We are not comparing Kohli’s India with England of the 2000’s or South Africa of the late 2000s and early 2010s. I have said many times that it is debatable if Kohli’s India is the third best Test side after WI and Australia. You can make a case for them and also for other teams.

You answer whoever and whatever you want, it's an open forum, no one can force you or any other poster to answer. You are already quite use to not answer posts that proves you wrong.
It is debatable only in your world, because this Indian team is no way near the very good recent teams.

However, what is not debatable is that this Indian side is the best Asian side of all time. The rate at which they win matches cannot be undermined for so and so reasons.

You are actually comparing the wrong players to prove your point. For example, Shaw is an incredibly talented player who will go down as a great of the game, but he has only played 3 Tests so far, while India has been number 1 for years now.

India’s main openers during this period were Dhawan, Rahul and Vijay, and although Sehwag was better than all of them, the point is that you are being simply disingenuous by picking Shaw.

The difference between this Indian team and the previous one is simple. The batting is inferior outside Asia but equally effective in Asia, but the bowling attack is better everywhere.

Ashwin and Jadeja collectively match Kumble’s brilliance at home, but both of them travel better with both bat and ball.

Zaheer and Shami are arguably equal, and Bumrah is better than whoever and Ishant Sharma of today is a far, far better than Ishant Sharma of Dhoni’s team or Agarkar or RP Singh or whoever else.

There are better pakistani teams than this indian team in every department but as I already know your excuses I said I will not bring pakistani teams in it.
Whoever are your openers, Vijay, Dhawan, Rahul and you can ad more if you want they will not be as a good as the Ghambir/Sehwag pair;

Batting of 00's team is a lot better in every condition; Ghambir Sehwag being legend in Asia are enough. Dravid Tendulkar, Laxman, ganguly and Dhoni equal to Pujara, Kohli, Rahane, Vihari (or any other number 6), Saha/Pant in asia?

Kumble Harbajhan are better spinners than Jadeja/Ashwin.The batting doesn't count at all because with the top 7 india had they didn't needed them in Asia.

 

[Mobashir]

Number of ATGs does not really matter. Hypothetically, a team with 11 excellent (but not ATG) players will win more matches than a team of 4 ATGs but 7 average cricketers.

I am not calling Imran’s Pakistan average, but overall, this Indian side has better players when you take all 11 players into account.

I disagree with your first statement. India not only has the best batting lineup in Test cricket today but also a world class bowling unit. Bowling might be relatively weaker than batting, but it is not a weak-link by any means.

Can you name India's top 7 yourself so you don't tell us we are choosing the wrong players?

 

[SensiblePakFan]

I like Vaughan’s team more than India, but Vaughan is a clown.

To be the best, you don’t have to be perfect or invincible. There are holes in every team. However, you have to be relatively better than your competitors.

India may not be perfect away from home, but they are still better than others and are ridiculously superior at home. That is why they fully deserve the number 1 ranking.

Furthermore, they have already achieved more than other Asian Test teams of the past.

South Africa in the early 2010's didn't lose a single series.
Thats the standard. Its high.

 

[tyron_woodley]

Calling someone a clown is fine but calling someone a joker is an insult?
That's another joke from you, is it?


You answer whoever and whatever you want, it's an open forum, no one can force you or any other poster to answer. You are already quite use to not answer posts that proves you wrong.
It is debatable only in your world, because this Indian team is no way near the very good recent teams.



There are better pakistani teams than this indian team in every department but as I already know your excuses I said I will not bring pakistani teams in it.
Whoever are your openers, Vijay, Dhawan, Rahul and you can ad more if you want they will not be as a good as the Ghambir/Sehwag pair;

Batting of 00's team is a lot better in every condition; Ghambir Sehwag being legend in Asia are enough. Dravid Tendulkar, Laxman, ganguly and Dhoni equal to Pujara, Kohli, Rahane, Vihari (or any other number 6), Saha/Pant in asia?

Kumble Harbajhan are better spinners than Jadeja/Ashwin.The batting doesn't count at all because with the top 7 india had they didn't needed them in Asia.

the same batting units have been all out for under 120 several times in n.z.

So no. Standards weren't better. Many teams are just better at home conditions. Too strong at home.

 

[Mobashir]

the same batting units have been all out for under 120 several times in n.z.

So no. Standards weren't better. Many teams are just better at home conditions. Too strong at home.

We are comparing the players of Ganguly's team and Kohli's. There is actually nothing to compare.
As a Pakistani, seeing that Asad Shafiq has played so much test cricket shows me how bad we were, and it's the same for India, Rahane has played 65 tests, it shows you how they lacked great batsmen.

 

[Slog]

This Indian team is a very good team. I think everyone can agree that.

But it doesn’t have claim to be in top 10 sides of all time let alone be top 3.

It has many holes which get exposed again and again. That is why it is not A great team.

 

[Mobashir]

This Indian team is a very good team. I think everyone can agree that.

But it doesn’t have claim to be in top 10 sides of all time let alone be top 3.

It has many holes which get exposed again and again. That is why it is not A great team.

This side batting is a big question mark for me. Virat Kohli is the only great batsman in the team.

 

[tyron_woodley]

We are comparing the players of Ganguly's team and Kohli's. There is actually nothing to compare.
As a Pakistani, seeing that Asad Shafiq has played so much test cricket shows me how bad we were, and it's the same for India, Rahane has played 65 tests, it shows you how they lacked great batsmen.

back then we lacked the bowling. Now we have a world class bowling. Batsman suck vs swing only. They are still good vs bounce, spin and pace.

 

[Mobashir]

back then we lacked the bowling. Now we have a world class bowling. Batsman suck vs swing only. They are still good vs bounce, spin and pace.

Compared to Ganguly's team they are good at nothing.
Rahane is poor against spin.
Kohli has owned by good off spinners on turners many times.
At home he failed :
- vs Swann england
- vs South Africa
- vs Australia with Lyon and O'Keefe.
The openers are not even fixed, you have to change every series.
The number 6 is not good, whoever you have played at that position.

You don't have a world class bowling. You have a good bowling attack. Ashwin/ Jadeja are not as good as Kumble/ Harbajhan. Only fast bowling is better.

 

[Extra_Cover]

I like Vaughan’s team more than India, but Vaughan is a clown.

To be the best, you don’t have to be perfect or invincible. There are holes in every team. However, you have to be relatively better than your competitors.

India may not be perfect away from home, but they are still better than others and are ridiculously superior at home. That is why they fully deserve the number 1 ranking.

Furthermore, they have already achieved more than other Asian Test teams of the past.

Going by your logic would you concede that India is not the best team in the world and far from greatest asian team if the lose or draw the upcoming home series against Australia?

I’m just going with your logic that having home win ratio better than others makes you better than others so if the fortress is breached then would you accept that this team is not the best and way off GOAT?

 

[Mobashir]

So we often hear that the indian test team has become a good away team and it's travelling a lot better.
Here is a focus on there away tours over the past 10 years in SENA.

Why I limit it to SENA? This is the real test and there is no team that is really excluded. They don't play pakistan. SL, WI and Bangladesh are that bad that you should beat them home away and on mars.

In South Africa :
- Draw 1-1 in 10/11 (Kohli didn't play in it)
- lost 1-0 in 13/14
- lost 2-1 in 18

In England :
- Lost 4-0 in 11 (Kohli didn't play in it)
- Lost 3-1 in 14
- Lost 4-1 in 18

In New Zealand :
- Lost 1-0 in 14
- Lost 2-0 in 2020

In Australia :
- Lost 4-0 in 2011
- Lost 2-0 in 14/15
- Won 2-1 in 18/19

Before all, lets talk about this in Australia and as there is a separate thread for it, will not talk that much about it. For a team that has lost every away tour in SENA over 10 years how it comes that there is this away win in Australia? Anyone can guess there is something not normal in that series. So it's being blind to not accept that India won only because of Smith and Warner not playing in that series.

Lets move on now to the losses. 10 years ago they drew a series in SA but since then only losses. So how are they better travelers?
It really is a shameful list of series loss for the this team.

 

[Ozeirk]

So we often hear that the indian test team has become a good away team and it's travelling a lot better.
Here is a focus on there away tours over the past 10 years in SENA.

Why I limit it to SENA? This is the real test and there is no team that is really excluded. They don't play pakistan. SL, WI and Bangladesh are that bad that you should beat them home away and on mars.

In South Africa :
- Draw 1-1 in 10/11 (Kohli didn't play in it)
- lost 1-0 in 13/14
- lost 2-1 in 18

In England :
- Lost 4-0 in 11 (Kohli didn't play in it)
- Lost 3-1 in 14
- Lost 4-1 in 18

In New Zealand :
- Lost 1-0 in 14
- Lost 2-0 in 2020

In Australia :
- Lost 4-0 in 2011
- Lost 2-0 in 14/15
- Won 2-1 in 18/19

Before all, lets talk about this in Australia and as there is a separate thread for it, will not talk that much about it. For a team that has lost every away tour in SENA over 10 years how it comes that there is this away win in Australia? Anyone can guess there is something not normal in that series. So it's being blind to not accept that India won only because of Smith and Warner not playing in that series.

Lets move on now to the losses. 10 years ago they drew a series in SA but since then only losses. So how are they better travelers?
It really is a shameful list of series loss for the this team.

Great post. Really clarifies things. To add to that, India is considered a great home team but the one team that's able to beat them at home they don't play. Sri Lanka is seeing a really bad period in their circketing life and Bangladesh's test status is in question.

 

[tyron_woodley]

Compared to Ganguly's team they are good at nothing.
Rahane is poor against spin.
Kohli has owned by good off spinners on turners many times.
At home he failed :
- vs Swann england
- vs South Africa
- vs Australia with Lyon and O'Keefe.
The openers are not even fixed, you have to change every series.
The number 6 is not good, whoever you have played at that position.

You don't have a world class bowling. You have a good bowling attack. Ashwin/ Jadeja are not as good as Kumble/ Harbajhan. Only fast bowling is better.

ashwin and jaddu are far better than kumble and harbhajan. Far better. I know my team. The attack is world class. Elite of the elite. Bumrah, shami and ishant is a powerful attack and they will prove it when they tour australia.

Our openers are new. They are solid. They need more time. pant is 22. I agree rahane etc is overrated.

kohli smashed a better soon attack in 2014. He was in a slump back in 2016 at home. players go through peaks and troughs. swann faced a pre prime baby kohli.

 

[wrongun]

This is a no.1 team in the world from past 5 years but still not a great team by any stretch of imagination.

The fact that we have a 43 averaging batsmen playing for us from past 7-8 years and has played 65 tests and is nowhere close to be seen as dropped from this squad tells us all we have to know about their batting.

Indian team post 2002 was better. Only Kohli would walk into that batting lineup and Zaheer and Kumble will still walk into this lineup pairing with Bumrah and Ishant overseas and Shami and Umesh at home.

i'd say they are almost no longer the #1 team either. It's neck & neck by England, Oz & India right now imo. Not one of them is consistently ahead of the others or superior in more dimensions than the others. Each has a few genuine strengths, a couple of weaknesses.

 

[Aman]

i'd say they are almost no longer the #1 team either. It's neck & neck by England, Oz & India right now imo. Not one of them is consistently ahead of the others or superior in more dimensions than the others. Each has a few genuine strengths, a couple of weaknesses.

How are England in that mix lol?

We'll be stronger than them once Conway and Young are in the team.

 

[aukhan]

Have they returned from the moon yet? Cheap victory against Australian side which had both Smith or Warner missing out made them think they are the Australia of the 90s.

 

[Phantom Menace]

How are England in that mix lol?

We'll be stronger than them once Conway and Young are in the team.

We are stronger than them now.

 

[tyron_woodley]

Have they returned from the moon yet? Cheap victory against Australian side which had both Smith or Warner missing out made them think they are the Australia of the 90s.

none of you other teams from Asia or even SENA would even beat a shield cricket team. So shut it. India won vs a strong team. No team is weak at home just because they miss 2 batsmen. Plenty of home bullies out there.

 

[Aman]

We are stronger than them now.

I think we're on par atm, with Conway, Young and Jamieson in the team I think we'd be better.

 

[Aman]

none of you other teams from Asia or even SENA would even beat a shield cricket team. So shut it. India won vs a strong team. No team is weak at home just because they miss 2 batsmen. Plenty of home bullies out there.

India are playing for it all in the next series against Aus, if they go down meekly there will be asterisk on that series win forever.

 

[Phantom Menace]

I think we're on par atm, with Conway, Young and Jamieson in the team I think we'd be better.

That is a fair view point but I think we are slightly better and a combined side would be majority New Zealand players.

 

[Mamoon]

Going by your logic would you concede that India is not the best team in the world and far from greatest asian team if the lose or draw the upcoming home series against Australia?

I’m just going with your logic that having home win ratio better than others makes you better than others so if the fortress is breached then would you accept that this team is not the best and way off GOAT?

That will not happen. I don’t think Australia is good enough to win in India even if India are not full-strength. However, let us assume that they win. I don’t think anything will change because India would still be miles ahead of others as far as home dominance is concerned.

Since losing to England at home in 2012-2013, they have played 34 Tests and only lost 1. That is simply incredible.

 

[Mamoon]

South Africa in the early 2010's didn't lose a single series.
Thats the standard. Its high.

They didn’t lose a single series but they also drew quite a few matches. They weren’t ruthless enough and did not show the intent to win matches often.

What makes Kohli’s team so good and what makes Kohli such a great Test captain is the fact that they win matches at an incredible rate in spite of having a ruthless approach. People undermine their wins because it is a result-oriented era, but what they don’t realize - or don’t want to realize - is the fact that in a result-oriented era, it is also easier to lose matches than to draw, and Kohli’s rate of losing matches is not high at all.

 

[Rudi hater]

India in the last few series at home they won them comprehensively, a great team would show that sort of consistency abroad which I am afraid Indian side lacks big time. If you look at the past great teams like WI, Australia they not only thrashed their opponents at home but they beat teams abroad too with equally ruthless fashion. The drew series but not got thrashed from an average teams like NZ. India is about the same level as South Africa, Sri Lanka, Pakistan. Unless they started wining outside they will remain a good team at home and really poor team outside.

 

[Mamoon]

Calling someone a clown is fine but calling someone a joker is an insult?
That's another joke from you, is it?


You answer whoever and whatever you want, it's an open forum, no one can force you or any other poster to answer. You are already quite use to not answer posts that proves you wrong.
It is debatable only in your world, because this Indian team is no way near the very good recent teams.



There are better pakistani teams than this indian team in every department but as I already know your excuses I said I will not bring pakistani teams in it.
Whoever are your openers, Vijay, Dhawan, Rahul and you can ad more if you want they will not be as a good as the Ghambir/Sehwag pair;

Batting of 00's team is a lot better in every condition; Ghambir Sehwag being legend in Asia are enough. Dravid Tendulkar, Laxman, ganguly and Dhoni equal to Pujara, Kohli, Rahane, Vihari (or any other number 6), Saha/Pant in asia?

Kumble Harbajhan are better spinners than Jadeja/Ashwin.The batting doesn't count at all because with the top 7 india had they didn't needed them in Asia.

Can you name India's top 7 yourself so you don't tell us we are choosing the wrong players?

I did not call Vaughan a clown while addressing him directly. If I were replying to him or if he was reading my post here, I would talk to him with respect. You can call me whatever you want as long as I don’t get to see what you are saying about me, but if you are going to quote me then don’t expect a response if you cannot talk with respect.

I don’t reply to posts when I don’t have anything to add. I would rather reply to someone else instead of going in circles. If you want to claim my silence as your victory, then so be it. It is not a competition. I will only say what I have to say.

No Pakistani team in history is better than this Indian team so please don’t waste your time by coming up with a potential XI.

The 2000’s Indian batting lineup regularly failed against swing bowling as well, and they weren’t more prolific than this Indian lineup at home.

Harbhajan was not better than Ashwin and Jadeja. Kumble was brilliant, but apart from longevity, what does he have over Ashwin and Jadeja? All three take a truckload of wickets and help their team win matches.

I don’t need to choose India’s top 7 because it is self-explanatory. The only positions where they have rotated players are Pant/Saha and the openers.

 

[topspin]

[MENTION=131701]Mamoon[/MENTION]

Before you blow the Kohli (as test captain)/India trumpet again. At least wait for them to compete in SENA please.

I cannot imagine Imran Khan's team failing like this against this NZ side. In fact they used to regularly beat New Zealand teams featuring Hadlee and Crowe, who were both bonafide ATG cricketers.

Moreover, India's Kohli couldn't even deal with Curran and Moeen Ali, the last time they toured England.

You live in a different world my friend.

 

[silentkiller187]

india is about to be whitewashed by a New Zealand team who are good but nothing special, if Pakistan was in indias shoes certain posters would have had a field day, but it seems when its india the ATG Number 1 team losing the excuses are pulled straight out of Deontay Wilders texbook. India is a good team don't get me wrong, but posters on here have continuously been reminded pakistan would not be fit to lace indias shoes, vihari rahane shaw are better than any pakistani batsmen etc, if you want to bend over for india that is your choice, but atleast keep your debates balanced and accept when you are wrong. Michael Vaughan was justified in what he said and he is definitely correct this india team cannot be considered an ATG team.

 

[Usman Chadda]

They'll never be a great team. Too many people around who think too much of themselves.

The hilarious press conference of Ravi Shastri puts the attitude of this Indian team into perspective. "Bumrah or Shami will take a fif-er next test, don't tell me I told you so". Chichora kahin ka

 

[Rudi hater]

Yeh cheez, ppl live in cloud cuckoo land who think India is number 1 test team.

 

[tyron_woodley]

[MENTION=131701]Mamoon[/MENTION]

Before you blow the Kohli (as test captain)/India trumpet again. At least wait for them to compete in SENA please.

I cannot imagine Imran Khan's team failing like this against this NZ side. In fact they used to regularly beat New Zealand teams featuring Hadlee and Crowe, who were both bonafide ATG cricketers.

Moreover, India's Kohli couldn't even deal with Curran and Moeen Ali, the last time they toured England.

You live in a different world my friend.

new zeland were never this strong at home. Their current team is probably their best ever along with mcculum's n.z

 

[Robert]

india is about to be whitewashed by a New Zealand team who are good but nothing special, if Pakistan was in indias shoes certain posters would have had a field day, but it seems when its india the ATG Number 1 team losing the excuses are pulled straight out of Deontay Wilders texbook. India is a good team don't get me wrong, but posters on here have continuously been reminded pakistan would not be fit to lace indias shoes, vihari rahane shaw are better than any pakistani batsmen etc, if you want to bend over for india that is your choice, but atleast keep your debates balanced and accept when you are wrong. Michael Vaughan was justified in what he said and he is definitely correct this india team cannot be considered an ATG team.

I'd like to see this Kiwi team come to England. I think it would be a good hard series now England are heading back up.

 

[Rudi hater]

I'd like to see this Kiwi team come to England. I think it would be a good hard series now England are heading back up.

It will be a great series.

 

[ethan hunt]

Vaughan is correct tbf, It's all good winning at home where bowlers like Yadav get dubious amount of reverse swing going but winning in Newzealand and England is another story.

 

[silentkiller187]

I'd like to see this Kiwi team come to England. I think it would be a good hard series now England are heading back up.

Definitely will be a well fought series.