India defeat New Zealand by 197 runs in the first Test at Kanpur

[street cricketer]

I never said it was a rank turner, but you know it's a favorable wicket when you have an offie turning it square and getting the ball to rip like an offie on day 2.

I can't quite follow you Aman. Are you telling me that Indian tracks shouldn't assist turn?

Or are you saying that it turned square on day 2? In that case, do you want me to believe that India scored 380 (declared mind you, could've easily been 450+) in the 2nd innings on the 3rd and 4th days of a square turner..I'm the first one to diss our team for their abilities against playing spin or lack of it and there is no way you can make me believe that we were on our way to a 450+ score on a square turner against 3 spinners, let alone in the 2nd innings.

The truth was that it was a turner but also you could score runs on it if you applied yourself. The ball started doing things once it got old after 45-50+ overs and then slowed down when it got soft. The English team rolls the visiting teams over in similar helpful conditions as well (with the odd green top), but we have people fawning over Anderson's fantastic ability to swing the ball both ways at will or Broad's ability to run through sides. We have no fans saying those two are average bowlers when they roll over the visiting teams. Why should it be different for spin, why should a spinner picking up wickets on tracks assisting turn be considered inferior to a pacer picking up wickets in conditions assisting swing and seam?

I'd take an average of 30 in Asia, it's that difficult for pacers to pick up wickets there.

World class is anyone who has proven himself in a different conditions around the world.

ATG level you have to have an average of 25 or lower over your career. Ashwin and Jadeja are at ATG level stats wise, but have failed to prove themselves in conditions that are unfavorable to them, and will likely never do it because they simply aren't skilled enough to do so.

If picking up wickets in Asia is difficult, imagine the task of spinners doing the same on the roads of Australia. Atleast in Asia, you can get the reverse swing going once the ball gets old. If there are overcast conditions and a cool breeze going, you can try and get the conventional swing going. If nothing works, you can try to blast the batsmen through sheer pace.

On the highways of Australia (and NZ, SA to a lesser extent), you get nicely rolled out drop in wickets which hardly breaks up even on the 4th and 5th wickets. A spinner is almost entirely dependent on the pitch on these slabs to get wickets. Yes you can try to deceive the batsman in flight, but good skilled batsmen can trust the spin on the wicket and belt flighted balls quite easily out of the stadium. Your only help is if the pitch slows down or if you get gifted a slowish track. There is a reason why McGrath has an impeccable record even in Asia while legendary spinners like Warne and Murali have poor records against good batsmen in Australia (See Warne's average in Australia against India). You see the record of visiting spinners in Australia in the last ten years or so, you will find that almost everyone has a poor record there. I think only Herath has a respectable record there around 35.

Ashwin has got a good run only in Australia and West Indies till now. In all other countries, Jadeja was the firstline spinner. Ashwin failed badly in his first tour to Aus, but did decent in his 2nd tour (went for runs but picked about 5 wickets every match which I think is very reasonable for a spinner on the roads of Australia). He did well in West Indies. I think there is a difference between "ATG" and "world class". Anderson is a world class bowler but I'm not sure many will group him in the ATG category as Steyn. Ashwin is in the Anderson category now, he is a world class spinner who is lethal in slow helpful conditions. But he has to perform reasonably well in his next tour to Eng, SA and NZ to be considered an ATG. I don't think even this improved Ashwin can average less than 35 in Australia. Jadeja on the other hand isn't world class and I'm sure many Indians say the same as well, even though he is probably more lethal than Ashwin in India.

 

[90MPH]

NZ blew it big time as they were in a great position on day 2 at 150/1.

Maybe the subsequent rain at Tea hurt their momentum a bit but still they should not have collapsed so easily and got a 50 run lead. Once they conceded a decent lead they were always behind the 8 ball. You can't afford it in these conditions where the pitch deteriorates quickly.

 

[street cricketer]

The problem is people nowadays brand every track that turns as a "rank turner". Apart from a few notable ones (Mumbai 2012, Delhi 2013, Mohali 2015, Nagpur 2015), most other Indian tracks have been the typical Indian wickets. I will say one thing though, Ashwin and Jadeja are benefitting big time against weak spin playing sides in a poor spin playing era. I think this era is probably the weakest spin playing era. People assume that when a ball turns from outside leg to off, it's a square turner. I remember seeing an interview of Ganguly, before the 98 (or 96?) Australia's tour of India (which was Warne's first visit to India) Tendulkar asked the bowling coach to intentionally rough up the pitch outside the leg stump and asked the leggies to bowl on that patch (as Warne used to do that quite often). Tendulkar used to step down and smack the ball turning in from outside the legstump nonchalantly over the midwicket while Laxman had a great ability to drive the balls at off and outside off through the covers with the spin and flick the rest pitching at middle and leg through midwicket using his rubber wrists.

Almost every Indian bat (and the other great batsmen of the past) used to be nimble footed. You don't often saw the great Indian batsmen of the past using the sweep, the sweep shot was generally considered as a last resort when you can't judge which way the ball is turning. The sweep used to be a go to shot of the white teams (the English batsmen of the past used to play it often as they weren't brought up in the turning conditions of Asia) while you will find that a great spin player will use his feet to great effect to skip down the track or use the depth of the crease. It's a crying shame that none of the current Indian batsmen are at ease in coming down the track and many rely on the sweep shot and back foot play against spin.

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

a guy named murlidharan averages 32.3 against top 5(aus, Ind, Pak, SA, Eng) teams in their backyards. his average drops further to almost 36 if we take out Eng(weakest team against spin among top 5 of his time)

in India he averages 42 in 11 matches and 75!!! in aus. do you consider him ATG bowler? in case you started watching cricket only in this ongoing series, he is considered ATG by most people.

Woah....spidy the stat genius.

I checked it...its true.....

Yeah....slicing and dicing can make even an accomplished career's numbers look dodgy......doing it for a player with little sample sets makes it even more dodgy.

 

[SL_Fan]

Well played India. Thought Williamson and co will give India a good run for their money after the first couple of days but from there on it was all down hill. Ashwin and Jadeja too hot to handle on these tracks. Good comebacks of sorts from Pujara and Vijay too.

 

[SL_Fan]

a guy named murlidharan averages 32.3 against top 5(aus, Ind, Pak, SA, Eng) teams in their backyards. his average drops further to almost 36 if we take out Eng(weakest team against spin among top 5 of his time)

in India he averages 42 in 11 matches and 75!!! in aus. do you consider him ATG bowler? in case you started watching cricket only in this ongoing series, he is considered ATG by most people.

You are not serious are you. The only flaws in Murali’s Test numbers is his record in Aus and Ind. That is it nothing else. For a spinner rest is absolute gold.

 

[Crafty_Indian]

Stats are not everything.Having said that if ashwin can continue this new version of himself for the next couple of years and manage a few good overseas spells wherein his contribution could have led to series win then imo he will ascend the pedestal of an ATG.

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

You are not serious are you. The only flaws in Murali’s Test numbers is his record in Aus and Ind. That is it nothing else. For a spinner rest is absolute gold.

He is not dissing Murali dude.

He is making a point by taking "look even the great Murali's numbers can be distorted by adding a few countries here and there with the bad countries" just like Aman did for Ashwin when the only place he failed was Aus.

 

[Spidy201]

He is not dissing Murali dude.

He is making a point by taking "look even the great Murali's numbers can be distorted by adding a few countries here and there with the bad countries" just like Aman did for Ashwin when the only place he failed was Aus.

yes, I consider Murali ATG bowler.
Ashwin has a long way to go, but only those who have seen him bowl throughout his career know that he has learned a lot and now a changed bowler, will definitely do better away from home, next time.

 

[Sanzcool]

Shane Warne has an average of 43 in India and 40 in WI

 

[Suleiman]

When I realize that India might take the #1 spot from us after this series: