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India has overtaken Pakistan in producing fast bowlers

Sachin136 said:
India just beat the #1 test team 3-0.
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Oh yeah I forgot, and that test team also happened to be South Africa, so it is specially funny when Saffer fans call Indian or Pakistani bowling lineups as ordinary when their own bowling is probably one of the worst going around.
 
Hopefully, I will have the chance to make a similar thread about our top 5 batsmen if they manage to average 30+ at a SR of 80+ in the coming year.
 
We went with Irfan, Junaid and Gul who wrecked India last time we faced them in a bilateral.
 
Syed1 said:
Oh yeah I forgot, and that test team also happened to be South Africa, so it is specially funny when Saffer fans call Indian or Pakistani bowling lineups as ordinary when their own bowling is probably one of the worst going around.
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Steyn, Rabada and Morkel is still one of the best bowling line ups in the world. Steyn's going through some injuries but he is one of the best bowlers.
 
My comment was about pace bowling unit. I have absolutely no doubt in saying that India and Pakistan are comfortably behind the likes of SA, Aus, NZ and Eng when it comes to pace unit.

SA losing in India had very little to do with pace unit. Even in Indian series, Morkel was the best pacer from both sides. That's when we had Steyn/Vern not playing. I will have no hesitation in picking Steyn/Vern/Rabada/Morkel over anything India or Pakistan has right now as pace unit. That may not be enough to win series in all venues if batsmen go missing, but comment is about pace bowling unit.
 
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Zak_Fan said:
Even Bangladesh has overtaken Pakistan currently.

But it is nothing to be proud of. It only highlights how much Pakistani bowling standards have fallen.
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Yea even Saudi Arabia has better fast bowling than Pakistan
 
At this point of time, both india and pak are ordinary.

Bangladeshs shouldn't even be taken into consideration. They can only play at the teeny backyard with the parents watching and clapping.
 
Interestingly Saeed Ajmal is still the best spinner from Asia if we go by ranking
 
ali2220 said:
Interestingly Saeed Ajmal is still the best spinner from Asia if we go by ranking
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Ofcourse, he had enough points accumulated. Just like Shami is still ranked 30 places higher than Wahab even though he hasn't touched a Cricket ball for 1 year.
 
Zak_Fan said:
Ofcourse, he had enough points accumulated. Just like Shami is still ranked 30 places higher than Wahab even though he hasn't touched a Cricket ball for 1 year.
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What ofcourse? he should be in the list simply because he has been banned for chucking.
 
Bhaag Viru Bhaag said:
What a joke. Mohammed Shami is not even in his top 10 list.
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Ishant Sharma averages 37 after 201 wickets in 68 Tests! THIRTY SEVEN!

Mohammad Shami averages 36 after 47 wickets in 12 Tests. THIRTY SIX!

Sure, they get some ODI wickets when their batsmen have given them huge totals to defend. But they are a pair of seriously useless fast bowlers.
 
Junaids said:
Ishant Sharma averages 37 after 201 wickets in 68 Tests! THIRTY SEVEN!

Mohammad Shami averages 36 after 47 wickets in 12 Tests. THIRTY SIX!

Sure, they get some ODI wickets when their batsmen have given them huge totals to defend. But they are a pair of seriously useless fast bowlers.
Click to expand...

Zia Ul Haq averages 0 after 0 wickets in 0 tests! ZERO!
 
[MENTION=139108]Sachin136[/MENTION] so your argument is that proven rubbish is better than potential?
 
Junaids said:
[MENTION=139108]Sachin136[/MENTION] so your argument is that proven rubbish is better than potential?
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Yes.

I play cricket in Canada and the US but haven't played internationals. My parents think I am potentially going to be a bowler for the Indian national team. Does that make me a better bowler than Shami too?
 
Junaids said:
Ishant Sharma averages 37 after 201 wickets in 68 Tests! THIRTY SEVEN!

Mohammad Shami averages 36 after 47 wickets in 12 Tests. THIRTY SIX!

Sure, they get some ODI wickets when their batsmen have given them huge totals to defend. But they are a pair of seriously useless fast bowlers.
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Above just shows how pak standard of bowling has fallen since even with those atrocious records, indian bowling is still better than that of pak.
 
ali2220 said:
Just shows how great the ranking are, for ppl who wants to go strictly by the ranking.
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Time away from Cricket does not imply that world class bowlers be kicked out of top 50 ranking.

Even with regular Cricket, Wahab isn't fit enough to tie Ajmal or Shami's shoelace, and rankings only highlight this fact.
 
I am not sure if this is the right thread or bump or may be there was a thread by [MENTION=76058]cricketjoshila[/MENTION] on this subject. If Yes than [MENTION=133760]Abdullah719[/MENTION] bro kindly shift my post in that thread if that is relevant.


Gone are the days when India wasn’t producing Pacers. BCCI in last 20 years has progressed immensely.


If we go few years back than there were only 5 bowlers in Indian Cricket who could bowled in excess of 145kph.


1. Javagal Sreenath
2. Zaheer Khan
3. Ashish Nehra
4. Sreesanth
5. Manaf Patel



Amongst these only Srinagar was the bowler who sustained his pace for a longer time. Remaining 4 lost their pace asset to soon due to injuries, poor training or genetic makeup.



If we look at current batch of Indian Int pacers than,


1. Umesh Yadav
2. Varun Aaron
3. Jasprit Bumrah
4. Mohammad Shami


are the ones who have sustained pace for a longer time. Although due to injuries Aaron & Shami lost few km pace but still they are capable of hitting 145 kph or bowl few above this. Previously Aaron could bowl few at 150 +



If we closely look at Bhuveneshwar Kumar & Jasprit Bumrah than there is another pleasant change which was rarely observed in Indian fast bowling culture 7-8 years back. Since making successful Int debuts Kumar and Bumrah’s fitness, strength and bowling speeds have increased rather than a dip and Bumrah now in Odi and T20 Cricket consistently clocks 140 plus and hits 145-147 speeds quite often even in his 9th or 10th over as observed in Asia Cup.

For me Bumrah currently is most difficult bowler to hit out in death overs. Best death bowler in WC atm.



Story does not end here.




India is a big country aswell as biggest cricketing nation. For the first time ever it’s producing most number of young bowlers (mostly under 23) capable of bowling 145 kph plus.


Among this batch


1. Khaleel Ahmed has already made his debut. His international debut was very impressive. He bowled quite a a lot of 140 plus deliveries at age 19-20 and even hit speeds of 145-146 kph.



2. Mohammad Siraj clocked 149.94 , 148.07, 147.79 kph in last IPL.
A bowler who has increased his pace.



3. Shivam Mavi clocked 149.86, 149.85, 146.98 kph in last IPL. He is only 19.



4.Avesh Khan clocked 149.12 , 148.74 kph in last IPL. He is only 21.




5. Kamlesh Nagarkoti is also capable of bowling in excess of 145 kph and is only 19. He is unfit at the moment and it remains to be seen whether after back injury he will be able to sustain his pace or not ? Since he is in best hands so probably like young Amir & Cummins he will sustain pace and not go Zahid’s or Waqar’s way.




6. Barinder Sran at 26 clocked 149.34 in last IPL.



7. Siddarth Kaul at 28 clocked 147.72 in last IPL.





So following Indian pacers are bowling 145 + kph


1. Jasprit Bumrah
2. Umesh Yadav
3. Varun Aaron
4. Mohammad Shami
5. Bhuveneshwar Kumar (occasionally)
6. Ishant Sharma (ocassionally)
7. Mohammad Siraj
8. Shivam Mavi
9. Kumlesh Nagarkoti
10. Avesh Khan
11. Barinder Sran
12. Siddharth Kaul



Amongst future prospects most exciting Indian pacers for me are :


1. Mohammad Siraj
2. Shivam Mavi
3. Khaleel Ahmed
4. Kumlesh Nagarkoti




India has sizeable bench strength now to chose best 4 pacers for next WC. In times ahead with injuries or dip in form seniors cannot be sure shot for selection because juniors like last 4 will push them for selection. Healthy competition.
 
[MENTION=23613]90MPH[/MENTION] [MENTION=76058]cricketjoshila[/MENTION] @sensible indian fan [MENTION=141520]troodon[/MENTION] [MENTION=1126]Pace[/MENTION] [MENTION=141557]Chief Destroyer[/MENTION] [MENTION=141390]Ellipsism[/MENTION] [MENTION=142670]mak36[/MENTION] [MENTION=79064]MMHS[/MENTION] [MENTION=135389]juan[/MENTION]ids [MENTION=5869]yasir[/MENTION] [MENTION=131701]Mamoon[/MENTION] [MENTION=136079]ahmedwaqas92[/MENTION] [MENTION=137507]asyed[/MENTION] [MENTION=140234]DRsohail[/MENTION] [MENTION=43242]Dr_Bassim[/MENTION] [MENTION=138958]Khan12[/MENTION] [MENTION=140697]siri[/MENTION]s [MENTION=130037]Titan[/MENTION]4 [MENTION=113742]Hamza_[/MENTION] [MENTION=134981]Bhaag Viru Bhaag[/MENTION]
 
anyone who saw india england series knows that india outbowled england but lost cos of better english batting depth

India lacks is a bowler of anderson class for england . we do have sharma , shami , siraj , bumrah who will be awesome in aussie/uk

yes its indiafortune that Aaron warms benches , siraj cannot get a debut yet given such riches in pace . spin is not bare but doing ok

what we lack rt now is yuvi class hitters - pant coming in will help and hopefully shaw gets in too . its ready to be no 1 - aussie series will be a defining time for india. either ways v proud of how we perfrmed in england - scoreline really did not show our performance
 
We play Shardul Thakur and Vijay Shankar kind of losers as our fast bowlers however.
 
TalentSpotterPk said:
[MENTION=23613]90MPH[/MENTION] [MENTION=76058]cricketjoshila[/MENTION] @sensible indian fan [MENTION=141520]troodon[/MENTION] [MENTION=1126]Pace[/MENTION] [MENTION=141557]Chief Destroyer[/MENTION] [MENTION=141390]Ellipsism[/MENTION] [MENTION=142670]mak36[/MENTION] [MENTION=79064]MMHS[/MENTION] [MENTION=135389]juan[/MENTION]ids [MENTION=5869]yasir[/MENTION] [MENTION=131701]Mamoon[/MENTION] [MENTION=136079]ahmedwaqas92[/MENTION] [MENTION=137507]asyed[/MENTION] [MENTION=140234]DRsohail[/MENTION] [MENTION=43242]Dr_Bassim[/MENTION] [MENTION=138958]Khan12[/MENTION] [MENTION=140697]siri[/MENTION]s [MENTION=130037]Titan[/MENTION]4 [MENTION=113742]Hamza_[/MENTION] [MENTION=134981]Bhaag Viru Bhaag[/MENTION]
Click to expand...

Once Ganguly took over as captain he put a lot of emphasis on fast bowlers. Infrastructure was created to find them train and nurture them.
Coaches who would advise bowlers to concentrate on line and length and variation and fore go pace were slowly sidelined from the structure.

Domestic teams had to bat on grassy and bouncy surfaces.so invariably you had to look for fast bowlers.

Then there was the speedometer. The fact that you could see how quick you were or how slow you were to the competetion only egged bowlers to go faster.

This is the result of a decade and a half long process.It was not without hiccups though.Esp the changing of mentality of few coaches.
 
cricketjoshila said:
Once Ganguly took over as captain he put a lot of emphasis on fast bowlers. Infrastructure was created to find them train and nurture them.
Coaches who would advise bowlers to concentrate on line and length and variation and fore go pace were slowly sidelined from the structure.

Domestic teams had to bat on grassy and bouncy surfaces.so invariably you had to look for fast bowlers.

Then there was the speedometer. The fact that you could see how quick you were or how slow you were to the competetion only egged bowlers to go faster.

This is the result of a decade and a half long process.It was not without hiccups though.Esp the changing of mentality of few coaches.
Click to expand...

Wasn't Venkatesh Prasad the bowling coach atleast 4-5 years back? He made a trundler army out of bowlers
 
TalentSpotterPk said:
I am not sure if this is the right thread or bump or may be there was a thread by [MENTION=76058]cricketjoshila[/MENTION] on this subject. If Yes than [MENTION=133760]Abdullah719[/MENTION] bro kindly shift my post in that thread if that is relevant.


Gone are the days when India wasn’t producing Pacers. BCCI in last 20 years has progressed immensely.


If we go few years back than there were only 5 bowlers in Indian Cricket who could bowled in excess of 145kph.


1. Javagal Sreenath
2. Zaheer Khan
3. Ashish Nehra
4. Sreesanth
5. Manaf Patel



Amongst these only Srinagar was the bowler who sustained his pace for a longer time. Remaining 4 lost their pace asset to soon due to injuries, poor training or genetic makeup.



If we look at current batch of Indian Int pacers than,


1. Umesh Yadav
2. Varun Aaron
3. Jasprit Bumrah
4. Mohammad Shami


are the ones who have sustained pace for a longer time. Although due to injuries Aaron & Shami lost few km pace but still they are capable of hitting 145 kph or bowl few above this. Previously Aaron could bowl few at 150 +



If we closely look at Bhuveneshwar Kumar & Jasprit Bumrah than there is another pleasant change which was rarely observed in Indian fast bowling culture 7-8 years back. Since making successful Int debuts Kumar and Bumrah’s fitness, strength and bowling speeds have increased rather than a dip and Bumrah now in Odi and T20 Cricket consistently clocks 140 plus and hits 145-147 speeds quite often even in his 9th or 10th over as observed in Asia Cup.

For me Bumrah currently is most difficult bowler to hit out in death overs. Best death bowler in WC atm.



Story does not end here.




India is a big country aswell as biggest cricketing nation. For the first time ever it’s producing most number of young bowlers (mostly under 23) capable of bowling 145 kph plus.


Among this batch


1. Khaleel Ahmed has already made his debut. His international debut was very impressive. He bowled quite a a lot of 140 plus deliveries at age 19-20 and even hit speeds of 145-146 kph.



2. Mohammad Siraj clocked 149.94 , 148.07, 147.79 kph in last IPL.
A bowler who has increased his pace.



3. Shivam Mavi clocked 149.86, 149.85, 146.98 kph in last IPL. He is only 19.



4.Avesh Khan clocked 149.12 , 148.74 kph in last IPL. He is only 21.




5. Kamlesh Nagarkoti is also capable of bowling in excess of 145 kph and is only 19. He is unfit at the moment and it remains to be seen whether after back injury he will be able to sustain his pace or not ? Since he is in best hands so probably like young Amir & Cummins he will sustain pace and not go Zahid’s or Waqar’s way.




6. Barinder Sran at 26 clocked 149.34 in last IPL.



7. Siddarth Kaul at 28 clocked 147.72 in last IPL.





So following Indian pacers are bowling 145 + kph


1. Jasprit Bumrah
2. Umesh Yadav
3. Varun Aaron
4. Mohammad Shami
5. Bhuveneshwar Kumar (occasionally)
6. Ishant Sharma (ocassionally)
7. Mohammad Siraj
8. Shivam Mavi
9. Kumlesh Nagarkoti
10. Avesh Khan
11. Barinder Sran
12. Siddharth Kaul



Amongst future prospects most exciting Indian pacers for me are :


1. Mohammad Siraj
2. Shivam Mavi
3. Khaleel Ahmed
4. Kumlesh Nagarkoti




India has sizeable bench strength now to chose best 4 pacers for next WC. In times ahead with injuries or dip in form seniors cannot be sure shot for selection because juniors like last 4 will push them for selection. Healthy competition.
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Don't worry. We will play the trundling duo of Kaul and Thakur and everything will be fine.
 
True that India is ahead of Pakistan.
The current batch of Pakistani fast bowlers wouldn't even make it to a Pakistan A team from the 90s.
 
WengerOut said:
Wasn't Venkatesh Prasad the bowling coach atleast 4-5 years back? He made a trundler army out of bowlers
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Thats why he was sacked. And never found anywhere near the team again.people like him are cancerous to indian team.
 
Rahul1 said:
Don't worry. We will play the trundling duo of Kaul and Thakur and everything will be fine.
Click to expand...

Siraj is part of Indian Test squad, Khaleel has made Indian Odi squad. Have some patience.

Mavi will soon be in reckoning aswell.
 
Yes definitely india has overtaken Pakistan in fact India has overtaken most test playing nations in fast bowling,, I mean producing talent,, Bumrah was ordinary when I saw him in ipl but he has I improved imensely.
 
India fast bowling will not be remembered if they don't win anything on note.

So far memorable fast bowling from memory:
- Windies (70s, '83) world cup wins
- Wasim ('92 world cup)
- McGrath, Wasim, Waqar ('99 world cup)
- Flintoff, McGrath ('05 Ashes)
- Johnson ('11 Ashes)
- Starc ('15 world cup)

I have not included Steyn, Donald, Lillee, etc in the list above as they all had supreme individual performance but cant remember them winning a world cup or something similar of note.

Now coming back to India, their recent wins have nothing to do with their fast bowling:
- Kapil ('87 world cup) more for that catch and batting heroics rather than bowling
- Yuvi (T20 world cup)
- Top order batting ('11 world cup)
- Top 3 batsmen (CT trophy)

Unless the fast bowling of India does something of note they will be forgotten. They had the chance to do something of note in SAF and Eng tours but they failed and shifted the blame onto the batsmen (which is true to an extent).
 
Extra_Cover said:
India fast bowling will not be remembered if they don't win anything on note.

So far memorable fast bowling from memory:
- Windies (70s, '83) world cup wins
- Wasim ('92 world cup)
- McGrath, Wasim, Waqar ('99 world cup)
- Flintoff, McGrath ('05 Ashes)
- Johnson ('11 Ashes)
- Starc ('15 world cup)

I have not included Steyn, Donald, Lillee, etc in the list above as they all had supreme individual performance but cant remember them winning a world cup or something similar of note.

Now coming back to India, their recent wins have nothing to do with their fast bowling:
- Kapil ('87 world cup) more for that catch and batting heroics rather than bowling
- Yuvi (T20 world cup)
- Top order batting ('11 world cup)
- Top 3 batsmen (CT trophy)

Unless the fast bowling of India does something of note they will be forgotten. They had the chance to do something of note in SAF and Eng tours but they failed and shifted the blame onto the batsmen (which is true to an extent).
Click to expand...
2011 WC has Zaheer Khan's name on it more than any batsman.His reverse swing won us that cup.Even the 2013 CT had plenty of contribution from our bowlers.
 
Extra_Cover said:
India fast bowling will not be remembered if they don't win anything on note.

So far memorable fast bowling from memory:
- Windies (70s, '83) world cup wins
- Wasim ('92 world cup)
- McGrath, Wasim, Waqar ('99 world cup)
- Flintoff, McGrath ('05 Ashes)
- Johnson ('11 Ashes)
- Starc ('15 world cup)
Click to expand...

You need to fix both your memory and bias.

- Waqar played only 1 match in 1999 WC, and that was an embarrassing loss to Bangladesh.
- There was nothing memorable about Wasim's 1999 WC either, he was outbowled by many bowlers.
- Zaheer and Nehra in 2003 WC were instrumental in taking India to the final, you missed that.
- 2011 WC was Zaheer Khan's, the best fast bowler in the tournament. You didn't mention him either.
 
TalentSpotterPk said:
[MENTION=23613]90MPH[/MENTION] [MENTION=76058]cricketjoshila[/MENTION] @sensible indian fan [MENTION=141520]troodon[/MENTION] [MENTION=1126]Pace[/MENTION] [MENTION=141557]Chief Destroyer[/MENTION] [MENTION=141390]Ellipsism[/MENTION] [MENTION=142670]mak36[/MENTION] [MENTION=79064]MMHS[/MENTION] [MENTION=135389]juan[/MENTION]ids [MENTION=5869]yasir[/MENTION] [MENTION=131701]Mamoon[/MENTION] [MENTION=136079]ahmedwaqas92[/MENTION] [MENTION=137507]asyed[/MENTION] [MENTION=140234]DRsohail[/MENTION] [MENTION=43242]Dr_Bassim[/MENTION] [MENTION=138958]Khan12[/MENTION] [MENTION=140697]siri[/MENTION]s [MENTION=130037]Titan[/MENTION]4 [MENTION=113742]Hamza_[/MENTION] [MENTION=134981]Bhaag Viru Bhaag[/MENTION]
Click to expand...

By some margin.

Previously, at least Speed Gun reading left some space for PAK posters to have some false bravado, but that's also diminishing fast. I don't think at their fastest any of the 6 PAK pacers PAK took to UAE are faster than Bumrah, even Yadav, or may be Ishant/Shami.

New ball skill is non existent, no yorker, absolutely no out-swing from any pacer - what they are doing is leaving batsmen from bowling angle - that's Hasan taking away from Tamim or Shinwari taking away from Sharma, hardly any movement from in air or off the seem. Only thing which we might call a skill I have seen is cross seem cutters with old ball - that too on dry surface; in NZ Kiwi pacers were moving it sharp & late in both Tests, PAK pacers were gun barrel straight on same green tops. Truth is, most PAK pacers are bowling with faulty technique on grip, seem position & follow-through - it has made new ball the biggest burden for PAK bowling these days. And alarmingly, very little sense of working batsmen out unless batsmen are going after blindly - once set, PAK is becoming the easiest side to put a big partnership, even for late order batsmen, because most bowlers are going through the motions only. Latest sensation I read is Haris Rauf - a guy not playing a FC game in last 2 years (doubt ever), because he might have reached 147KM in a mighty Abu Dhabi T20 tournament.

If anything needs to be done to revive the situation, first ban every speed gun from PAK games at any level, it's perverting the bowlers (& fans as well). 134KM is more than enough if there is adequate skills and game plan behind to work out a batsman - and there are 100s of pacers who can reach 134K as average speed. Mashrafee bowls at 120KM with his effort ball - check what he did with Indian batsmen on same Dubai wicket where PAK pacers went at 7/over for ZERO wickets in 2 games - now come back with JK/Afridi's spell against BD. This has become last resort for PP - pick sporadic incidence here & there, then boast on that till next such example occurs. A semi retired Malinga showed more skills in his first 4 overs with new ball than entire PAK pace squad in Asia cup - time to remind the class of the batsmen Malinga was bowling against for his new ball skills.

I won't have posted here unless you had tagged me - otherwise this is just a 2.5 years old thread, go to first page and read some comments to realize what blind arrogance without substance can do to a nation in sports, in fact in every aspect of life.
 
MMHS said:
This has become last resort for PP - pick sporadic incidence here & there, then boast on that till next such example occurs.
Click to expand...

You are spot on with this comment. Hype machine goes in overdrive with sporadic performances. Often I use long term ranking trend to show if it's consistent or not then then most hilarious comments come. I hear, this time it's different and rankings of players are low because they are new. They will be all consistently among top ranks after few years.

After 2 years, the same argument for another set of player based on few performances here and there. Last resort comes with comments like, objective longer term ranking trend is not meaningful. Some posters simply want to take raw stats and raw stats are often not a good measure when you play against minnows more often.

Having said that, there are many good posters who do admit shortcomings.
 
I believe we have overtaken Pakistani in the (test) fast bowling department but our rubbish batting has compensated, based on what we saw in England maybe Pakistani tailenders are more technically equipped with the bat than most of our jokers pretending to be specialist batsmen.

In ODIs/T20s we are still marginally behind Pakistan but special thanks to the inept national selectors. We have potential but Kaul, Dhawal, Shardul, Unadkat etc do not inspire confidence.
 
Bumrah is the only quality seamer, India has. Bhuvi and Shami are effective but only in certain conditions
 
This is patently true, India have a very good crop of fast bowlers coming through the ranks. All credit to their first-class system and the change in mentality of young cricketers.

We on the other hand are producing trundler after trundler due to substandard first-class pitches and a lop-sided structure that pits amateur regional sides against strong departmental units.
 
Canistani Hero said:
Extremely inconsistent. You can put him in the same bracket as someone like Shami
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Since 2015, Ishant's stats are 69 wickets at an avg of 27 and ER of 2.8 and 5 five-wicket hauls in the last 4 years.

Now I don't know high your standards are but to me that looks pretty damn consistent.
 
A lot has to do with the pitches they play on - Pak bowlers not getting helpful pitches in UAE and that's a fact
 
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