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India take No. 1 position in Test Rankings with a 3-0 defeat of New Zealand
- Thread starter Abdullah719
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Thanks for the pics, you beat me to it
Nice to see Gavaskar present the Mace to Kohli. Gavaskar took India to the #1 ranking in September 1980 (to Feb 1981).
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JaDed
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Without seeing them play tests in these conditions u said they are better than Umesh,Shami and B K?
Wahab really got smacked around in a T20 by us, so I don't think much of him. Sohail and Amir did well when we played them. It doesn't matter anyway! A batting line up like Vijay, Gambhir, Pujara, Kohli, Rahane, Rohit, Ashwin, Jadeja and Saha (all capable of scoring centuries, except maybe Jadeja) will grind down every bowling attack.
Yatoo
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I have seen Sohail Khan reverse swing in Odis against India
amir is better than Indian trundlers
SO Shami and Yadav are trundlers?
BK is a trundler. But he bowls in mid 130's and can swing it both ways. Keep living in the past where Dinda, Munaf and Vinay Kumar were our strike bowlers.
JaDed
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Shami reverses better than Wahab and Sohail,Amir is still unknown,Bhuvi might be slow but the guy swings better than Wahab and Sohail as was evident in English tour and the last test against Kiwis.
SL_Fan
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Congrats to India well played. Ashwin on another level these days.
street cricketer
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What do you base this upon?
Bhuvneshwar despite being a trundler averages less than Amir and has a better overall record.
I see a lot of this being thrown around here.
"Don't compare Amir to Indian trundlers, he is a different league".
I mean, Ashwin despite destroying sides in favourable conditions series after series while racking up new records and after having won like 7 man of the series awards (4 on the trot now), has a thousand questions raised over his quality and caliber. A lot of people here call him overrated and refuse to rate him until he performs in "unfavourable" conditions against stronger opponents, fair enough. So why should it be any different for Amir.. He is already considered a once in a generation bowler and a future ATG here and is considered up there with Starc, Steyn and co quality wise. I mean, shouldn't the same standards be applied to Amir too?
adil_909
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Congrats to India for retaking the mace. Let's celebrate the fact that India and Pakistan are jostling for the number 1 and number 2 position in test cricket, not sure if that has ever happened before! Now if only we could see an India vs. Pak series to determine who the real test champion is!
Pakistanian
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If Pakistan sweeps the West Indies would we be able to become take back the number one rank?
Pakistan is just 4 points behind India, will we able to go back to the top if we win the next test? How does it work?
Pakistan is just 4 points behind India, will we able to go back to the top if we win the next test? How does it work?
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Pakistanian
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"If Pakistan sweeps the West Indies would we be able take back the number one rank?*"
Please edit the title mods, thanks.
Please edit the title mods, thanks.
cricketjoshila
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No.You would only gain one point.
Pakistanian
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What?! All that hard work for just one point
The West Indies are ranked 8th in the world, we should be expected to beat them and the rankings reflect that.
We'd need to make we beat New Zealand and hope England beat India by just a game or two in order to regain the top spot.
Slog
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we'll also need to atleast draw in Oz after a series win in NZ
Its hilarious that we will lose points most likely if we somehow even manage to draw the series in Aus.
ICC really needs to take into account away aspect
Pakistanian
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Misbah needs to make history, if he wins the next test. Wins two in New Zealand and at least 1 in Oz drawing the series, we'd def be number one. He'd also make history becoming the most successful Asian captain with 28 wins and win Pakistan's first test in Australia after 22 years, if Pakistan beats Oz 2-1 then he'd make history as Pakistan would win their first ever test series on Australian soil.
Misbah has the chance to be remembered as a legend of all time if he pulls off what seems to be an impossible quest. #FearTheBeard
Misbah has the chance to be remembered as a legend of all time if he pulls off what seems to be an impossible quest. #FearTheBeard
Mr. Lion
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First ICC needs to take into account the number of tests that each nations r playing in each year.
These ramkings simply doesn't have any value since there's a huge gap between the number of matches that each nation play in each year.
If it doesn't get fixed these rankings r simply pointless. ICC seriously needs to develop a fixture where every test nation will get the chance to play equal number of tests and Odis( distributed evenly between home and away). Only then these rankings will make sense.
A 2-0 series win in NZ is realistic, but a series win or even a draw in Australia is out of question.
To be honest, until the Future Tours Programme is scrapped and rebuilt from scratch the entire rankings system is completely meaningless as far as I'm concerned. Any league table where teams don't have the chance to play everyone else on a regular basis is a joke, bilateral agreements need to be done away with. Australia don't want to play Zimbabwe or Bangladesh for a decade because they're not profitable enough? Fine, forfeit your rankings points. Indian government doesn't want BCCI to play Pakistan? Goes down as a series loss in the rankings.
Even the idea of having a test "championship" between the top two or four teams isn't worth a damn thing when those top sides are decided via rankings I wouldn't use as toilet paper.
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Mr. Lion
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Yup. If I'm not wrong I think that Pak haven't managed to draw a single test let alone a test series against Australia in Australia in last 20 years or so. So their first mission should be drawing a test in Australia.
ShoonyaSifar
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All that we need to do is win the 5 test series vs England and we will go 6-7 points clear of everyone else irrespective of the results. A series loss OTOH will push us down to number 3/4
sensible-indian-fan
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Bilateral agreements in tests are STUPID.
We need a proper system where each team plays every other team.
This is what is wrong with cricket. You need a powerful central body to coordinate everything.
Cricket NEVER had that in its history.
We need a proper system where each team plays every other team.
This is what is wrong with cricket. You need a powerful central body to coordinate everything.
Cricket NEVER had that in its history.
Archer
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Nope, we would still be behind by 3 points.
ShoonyaSifar
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Curious to know which other team sport forces teams to play each other so that their rankings can be considered to be great? Doesnt happen in football, hockey, rugby, volleyball, basketball etc. Also no one frets about the rankings as much.
I tried to think of an equivalent and the first thing that popped into my head is boxing, where promoters book fights based on what makes them the most money rather than on merit. You get fighters avoiding legitimate contenders because they either won't sell enough PPV orders or because they're afraid they'll lose so you only get eagerly anticipated super fights happening when one or both fighters are old and past their prime.
Pete Rose
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The two tier test championship stipulated that the top seven teams play each other home and away over a two year cycyle. Not many takers for that apparently.
sensible-indian-fan
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Can't compare different sports like that.
Each has its own charm and way of approach.
Football for example has the WC as its pinnacle and the league based tourneys are very prestigious.
Cricket on the other hand has WC as its pinnacle ALONG with test cricket but the league based tourneys in here don't have the same prestige (a great show in some league isn't gonna make a player a legend unlike in football).
Football games take about 90 mins and overtime and that is its purest and only format.
Cricket's purest format is 5 day and the 3 hour games (T20) has the least value.
Football and other sports aren't facing an existential crisis.
But cricket is. Interest for the purest format (test) is dwindling in most places, 50 overs barring WC has become meaningless (even more so due to deader pitches all over the world). The format that brings the most revenue is looked upon as a cheap thrills format.
Cricket desperately needs context way more than other sports.
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90MPH
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The problem with these rankings is one team is refusing to play another for the past 9 years, that includes neutral venues.
Until the fixtures are more evenly balanced and teams stop picking and choosing their matches based on tv revenues and political interference then you can't take these rankings too seriously.
It should be seen as an indication on where abouts the team. I said the same when Pak were number 1. They might not be the best but in the top 3 for sure.
Until the fixtures are more evenly balanced and teams stop picking and choosing their matches based on tv revenues and political interference then you can't take these rankings too seriously.
It should be seen as an indication on where abouts the team. I said the same when Pak were number 1. They might not be the best but in the top 3 for sure.
JaDed
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Can you Pakistan Zimbabwe though?Funny you mention them after drawing a test series to them.
We are ranked no 2 after having not played a single test at home for years, meanwhile India has been absolutely hammerd humilated and exposed in Eng and Aus and ran back hiding to india to make a schedule for home games for next 13 months with dispicable pitches dust pitched and tactics. Really shameful tactics.
If I explain this very slowly then maybe you will get it. India loses abroad. But foreign teams lose by an even bigger margin in India. Hence India gets the #1 position, that is the way the real world works, deal with it!
Chrish
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SA's opening is a problem but they also have exiting prospect like QDK. I still believe they can become no 1 again
I look forward to see how SA and Pak perform in Australia.
I look forward to see how SA and Pak perform in Australia.
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Chrish
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I will rate India no 1 only when they can win/ draw series overseas
They did that in 2000s and the quality of the team justified it
They did that in 2000s and the quality of the team justified it
I don't understand this logic. If India loses 2 out of 4 tests in Aus, and draws 2, and Aus loses 4 out of 4 tests in India, then India should be ranked ahead of Aus.
There is no logical reason why a team should have to win away tests to be ranked #1. It only has to do better than other teams overall (both home and away).
saeed5646
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sensible-indian-fan
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Not a single team is winning tests away from home consistently. Does that mean no one is number 1?
sensible-indian-fan
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That's stupid. "No.1" is the team with most points in the ranking table. Simple. This hypothetical concept of teams having to win away from home to be "true number 1" is silly. We have been spoiled by a decade of Australia/South Africa/India having great teams which competed strongly everywhere. "Number 1" doesn't mean the team has to be truly great. Just the best out of a mediocre bunch.
sensible-indian-fan
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Yes there is number 1. No one said the number 1 ranking doesn't exist at all. But there is no number 1 which is accepted by all. If a team wins or draws even a couple of series in tough conditions, it will be called true number 1 in current scenario.
Right now, its not even best of the bunch but more like team with currently most favourable tours. In 14/15, we lost rankings cos we toured overseas fully. Now we gain rankings cos we have favourable tours. When top ranked teams tour overseas and Aus play a lot at home, Aus will become number 1 inspite of being whitewashed in Asia and losing in Eng.
Hehe. Best of the bunch indeed.
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So what do we have? No #1 and 8 teams ranked #2? Or maybe only #3, #7, #10...
Chrish
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My thoughts exactly..
Pakistan to their credit drew series in England in contrast to popular opinion. If they do relatively well in upcoming tours that will clear all the doubts
sensible-indian-fan
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Pakistan can be called number 1 (for now) due to their achievements in England. That was a BIG BIG achievement plus they haven't been defeated at home.
If they get pummelled in NZ and Aus, then back to the pot with others.
If they win in NZ and lose in Aus, I would call them number 1 for practical purposes.
Winning in Asia, drawing in Eng, winning in NZ is good enough for me.
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Chrish
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South Africa until very recently managed to win/ draw series all over the world. So don't try to tell me that it's not possible
Chrish
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Pakistan can be called number 1 (for now) due to their achievements in England. That was a BIG BIG achievement plus they haven't been defeated at home.
If they get pummelled in NZ and Aus, then back to the pot with others.
If they win in NZ and lose in Aus, I would call them number 1 for practical purposes.
Winning in Asia, drawing in Eng, winning in NZ is good enough for me.
Reckon they will win in nz. I don't have too much hope from current kiwi team
For me they don't have to win or even draw in Australia. All I want to see is them putting up good fight. If they get thrashed fair and square like Australia did in Lanka then they will be back to the pot as you said. If they can force Aussies to fight for their life I would consider them no 1 even if they end up loosing
Which probably explains why they were #1 only "until very recently"!
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sensible-indian-fan
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I too would place Pakistan favourites against NZ but then you never know.
Chrish
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Hopefully NZ wouldn't gamble with green tops they have to bat on 1st every time
Chrish
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Do you have quota of certain number of posts you have to meet per day?
Adijazz1706
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I back Pakistan to do well in NZ, Australia is the problem. The current attritional approach doesn't work on roads where the only chance of wickets is the new ball and the very old ball. There could be more than the 1 compulsory collapse (a Pak trademark) in that series.
Chrish
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Also it would be interesting to see how Pak batsman adapt on true wickets
They been saying this for ages now that they won't serve roads anymore but I will only believe it when I see one in non-day night test
They been saying this for ages now that they won't serve roads anymore but I will only believe it when I see one in non-day night test
<b>Pakistan can be called number 1 (for now) due to their achievements in England.</b> That was a BIG BIG achievement plus they haven't been defeated at home.
If they get pummelled in NZ and Aus, then back to the pot with others.
If they win in NZ and lose in Aus, I would call them number 1 for practical purposes.
Winning in Asia, drawing in Eng, winning in NZ is good enough for me.
I think the 3rd Test has comprehensively dismissed this idea.
sensible-indian-fan
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If they win he NZ series, they would be considered number 1 for the time being.
Right now, they are closer to the cauldron with the other teams. Very sub par performance in this series.
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One Test to comprehensively dismiss the idea?
ShoonyaSifar
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Thank you Wi. We now have a cushion of 6 points witha chance to extend the gap further vs Eng.
Zak_Fan
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Pakistan can be called number 1 (for now) due to their achievements in England. That was a BIG BIG achievement plus they haven't been defeated at home.
If they get pummelled in NZ and Aus, then back to the pot with others.
If they win in NZ and lose in Aus, I would call them number 1 for practical purposes.
Winning in Asia, drawing in Eng, winning in NZ is good enough for me.
When do we tour England again? I have a feeling that the current English team is seeing a major decline.
sensible-indian-fan
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Gotta whitewash those pommies and make it impossible for anyone to get near our points.
Pray tell me why you consider a team with a rating of 112 superior to a team with a rating of 119?
Or why you would consider Pakistan superior to India after they beat NZ, when India demolished both NZ and WI (to whom Pak just lost a test at home)?
sensible-indian-fan
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2018.
Late 2017 we tour SA. Then Eng in 2018. Then Aus in late 2018.
We wouldn't have done much in England if we had toured them now cos you need to take 20 wickets on flatter tracks to win. If we were capable of that, we would have drawn the series in SA and NZ. When Ashwin and Mishy boy didn't click in Sabina Park last day on that track which lost zip, our pacers couldn't win us the game.
Now its good that we have some time which allows Kohli to develop a pace attack. Plus the new Ashwin factor is a huge deal. But it all boils down to what kind of pace attack we have.
Zak_Fan
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Not to mention, that 6 point lead India have has come despite multiple tours to Aus and SA. I think the way SIF looks at rankings is based on recent achievements, while actual rankings are decided keeping a substantially longer period in mind.
sensible-indian-fan
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1. Because I can really "analyze".
2. If Pak beat NZ in NZ, then yes they will be considered the better side for that time. No questions about that.
3. If they get whitewashed in Aus, then it depends. Have to think about it. Still drawn series in Eng and win in NZ is a big deal.
4. India will get its chance in its overseas tours.
5. That doesn't mean our high ranking is to be mocked cos we demolish teams at home like no other.
6. There is no real number 1 for now. The one who gets accepted by all fans (not Indo-Pak fans just) is the real number 1. For that you have to be solid at home and do well overseas.
sensible-indian-fan
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I am looking at the big picture too.
If India had drawn NZ and SA series (which we should have), lost badly to Eng (one bad series is ok) and lost to Aus 0-2...people won't question it too much.
But we couldn't close out games that we should have.
It is not just any Test, it has significance beyond most other Tests. A loss to a side that got absolutely demolished by India at home? A loss to the #8 ranked team that cost you 3 rating points and likely to be pushed down to #3 by Aus at the end of the Aus-SA series.
I disagree with your analysis. If it were not for rained out matches and umpiring errors, India's current rating would be around 125. And likely to go to 130 by the end of the Eng series which would make it not just #1 but an all time great team. But your analysis would still put Pak ahead of India.
sensible-indian-fan
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Brother, you can complain bout me being biased all day long.
It won't change the fact nor will it change the ease with which I can make strong points.
A great team should do well overall. Not just at home.
Aus can whitewash all teams in Aus and get to 125 points but it will not be number 1 when its a lulloo in Asia and poor in Eng.
Same way India will NOT be an all time great team by whitewashing Eng and Aus at home.
Wanna be a all time great time?
Then we have to show our mettle in SA, Aus and Eng tours that happen in 2017/18.
I think before people ask India to validate its #1 ranking by winning overseas, they should avoid losing at home to #8 ranked teams!
sensible-indian-fan
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That's like others saying Indians shouldn't talk about pace bowling or overseas tours.
Just strawman arguments.
India is currently number 1 in ranking because we are super ruthless at home. Let's enjoy that without taking things out of context and trying to convince everyone about how true number 1 we are (when its clearly not the case).
When we become true number 1, others will talk about it. We won't even have to say anything.
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Think you are getting over excited here
Lots of good cricket ahead so hold on before making sweeping statements
That's like others saying Indians shouldn't talk about pace bowling or overseas tours.
Just strawman arguments.
India is currently number 1 in ranking because we are super ruthless at home. Let's enjoy that without taking things out of context and trying to convince everyone about how true number 1 we are (when its clearly not the case).
When we become true number 1, others will talk about it. We won't even have to say anything.
It is not a strawman argument, the point is very simple. You are making a fetish of winning overseas.
Your argument has become that a team can be thought superior as long as it wins/draws overseas even if it loses to a #8 ranked team at home. Home losses to you seem to be of no consequence, which is not rational.
The biggest "other" says India is #1. It is the ICC ranking.
Zak_Fan
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Good points. But let's also not forget that one tour of England is not where life ends. Sri Lanka won their last series in England, so would you call them the best touring side in Asia?
A drawn series in England doesn't mean that Pakistan will succeed in SA, Aus and NZ too. Nor does it hide their failures in Zimbabwe or WI. There is absolutely no way a team can be labelled #1 despite not touring 3 tough tours for more than half a decade.
You can say that Pakistan has a great platform to prove themselves the best, but calling them #1 is being too kind.
sensible-indian-fan
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1. Pakistan did well in a 4 match series. If they had walked away 1-1 in a 2 match series, then yes people would raise doubts. When series extends, weaknesses expose and teams crumble.
2. Pakistan are traditionally weak in SA and Aus but do well in NZ. They have their weaknesses too (in and outside Asia).
3. Pakistan after the England drawn series could be called number 1 for the moment. Now with the WI performance in UAE (where India clearly outperformed Pakistan by some margin) has reduced their aura which means they are closer to the cauldron with other teams but just a bit ahead cos they still haven't lost a series for a long time now (and did well in the recent Eng away series too).
4. Future performance will dictate where they stand.
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sensible-indian-fan
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1. If India and Pakistan have similar overseas record, India wins due to better home margin. This was understood.
2. No one is having a fetish about overseas tours. If you tour overseas countries and walk away with 0-1, 0-1, 1-3 and 0-2....no one will consider you as real number 1. You can even go to 150 points in ICC and no one outside will.
3. ICC rankings is algorithm. Plus bilateral fixtures are not set in a proper way (tours are disproportionate). Take recent ODIs for example. Axar Patel is number 9 in ODIs. Mishra is 15. You think Axar is a better ODI bowler than Mishra? Or he is better than Jaddu and Ashwin? Or he has performed better than them in recent times? Nope.
Zak_Fan
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Ok, so in short, 1 drawn series in England gives them the #1 spot even though they failed to win a series in Zimbabwe and WI and haven't toured the two toughest countries for ages.
I personally would wait for them to finish pending tours before making any such claim.
You are ignoring draws and only considering wins and losses. The ICC algorithm does not make this mistake. In another thread I had pointed out that giving 1 point for wins, 0.5 for draws and 0 for losses gives India with a superior record.
If everyone wins at home, then the team that wins by the biggest margin at home is the "true #1". If a team wins or draws abroad but also loses at home, then you need an algorithm to figure out the answer.
Algorithms are widely used in many different sports. Their strength is that they consider everything and do not have biases. Some algorithms are better than others. I do not know what time period the ODI ranking is based on, maybe it is too short. Also individual rankings will be more affected by random events (dropped catches etc.) than rankings of countries (which are based on more broad data).
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sensible-indian-fan
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Its not about just 1 drawn series.
Its about performing well in Asia and then not losing outside Asia in the only tour recently where all others lose. India, SL and Aus. Aus may have lost the series 2-3 but they were rubbish for most part and got reduced to 1-3 at one point of time. Pakistan competed in all games and if not for the super collapse, they would have even won the 4 match series.
That's a HUGE if you look at the context.
So "as of now", they do have the biggest claim to be the best side in the world.
If they tour overseas in other places and do well, they will solidify the position.
If they do badly, they will lose their standing.
But what they have now doesn't get cancelled by what they do in future.
No one called any side as absolute number 1 which SA was back in 2012-15.
sensible-indian-fan
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1. ICC algorithm does not separate home and away series. Its all one and the same.
2. All round performance matters. If algorithm says something, it doesn't make it so.
3.You say
Why so?
Cos it doesn't match with your view now?
ICC ODI algorithms use variety of factors just like tests.
But in the end its just an algorithm. That's why you have disparities.
4. Even if ICC algorithm takes home and away tours, a side that wins disproportionately at home and loses abroad may maintain its points. That doesn't mean fans will not notice it. I am not saying this is how it will work but I am saying it could be a scenario.
5. The point is simple:
Better allround team gets rated more.
Screw rankings.
Screw points.
Screw everything.
When fans from various nations rate you as the best, you are the best.
As I said, let's enjoy the number 1 ranking and not take it out of context to prove something that doesn't have a basis for now.
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