India's young fast bowling factory - 38 better bowlers than Naseem Shah?

[Rana]

Well, Naseem Shah also went for close to 100 runs in this ongoing test and took a lucky wicket which was not out. He also avgs 60+ in Aust/Eng. The bowling was so poor in last Aussie summer that it prompted Ponting to say 'Not sure if I have seen worst bowling in our shores'. I am not even mentioning what Ian Chappel had to say about your team previously.

Pretty rich for you to highlight stats of Navdeep Saini.

Ok Saini is one of 38, where are the remaining 37?

 

[NoBallZombie]

So how did India’s pace improve then?? Many of our bowlers are able to bowl faster (compared to Indian team of before) in later spells too now..

Gene mutation. In 80 odd years, this is the first Indian line up of any substance. Unless you are consistently able to replace this current one with fresh bowlers who are equally pacy (and effective), this can not indicate that India has suddenly discovered the art of fast bowling.

 

[Local.Dada]

Usually this is how a Pakistani bowling scorecard reads in most overseas games on a good day

Shaheen 3/122
Naseem/Musa 1/89 (because of breakdown can’t last the day)
Abbas- 1/77
Yasir Shah 2/228

1 wicket to either a runout or a parttimer like Haris sohail

Opposition declares.

I said good day because in this scenario Pakistan manages to pick up 8 wickets

 

[NoBallZombie]

Usually this is how a Pakistani bowling scorecard reads in most overseas games on a good day

Shaheen 3/122
Naseem/Musa 1/89 (because of breakdown can’t last the day)
Abbas- 1/77
Yasir Shah 2/228

1 wicket to either a runout or a parttimer like Haris sohail

Opposition declares.

I said good day because in this scenario Pakistan manages to pick up 8 wickets

That does not prove anything though. You guys are conveniently ignoring the fact that Pak has not had a fixed Test attack for more than a decade now. Ishant Sharma alone has more test matches than our fast bowling attack. In order to build your attack, you need to have a spear head or a senior figure driving the junior / less experienced guys. You guys have had the luxury of Shami and Bumrah, so the succession process is really good there. We dont have that luxury. Give these guys 20 odd test matches together and you would notice them getting better ..

 

[Thunderbolt14]

So in your logic Swing/Pace comes via genes??

Not at all. It’s an art and requires appreciation, appreciation to the extent you are willing to bowl the long yards and understand the technique of setting batsmen up.

Some parts are genetic. Hyperextension, height. Kyle Jamieson, Jasprit Bumrah, Shoaib Akhtar, Wasim Akram, Shaheen Afridi.

But it’s the culture that transforms those basic raw ingredients into world beaters. Amir for example grew up playing tape ball and his famous story of making it big was bowling 6 yorkers in a row at the age of 14 to Billo Tennis. People think Amir was just naturally talented, but he bowled insane amounts in his small village even before he knew what a hard ball was. That’s what catalyzed the raw ingredients into something more potent.

Last thing that is required is numbers. Population numbers. India has this, hence why there is a sudden jump in bowling quality in India, because cricket is now becoming more accessible to the lowest segment of society. The reason is that the genetic raw ingredients have a higher likelihood of appearing 4 times (for 4 national team fast bowlers) in a population of 1.5 billion or 200 million than in a population of New Zealand.

Unfortunately, the large part of the population in both my country and yours is malnourished and discourages sports as an unprofitable career while New Zealand has a sporting culture offered to well nutritioned kids, with coaches there to scientifically tweak bowling technicals, which is why they have one of the best Test bowling lineups in the world right now.

The reason Pakistan has always made up for these deficiencies is because of an extremely, extremely strong passion for fast bowling created singlehandedly by Imran Khan, and then taken to the next level by Wasim and Waqar. Every kid in the 80s, 90s, and 00s wanted to bowl fast. This is also a reason (there are many more technical and structural reasons, but this is also one of them) for our lack of good batsmen - no one found it as exciting compared to ripping wickets apart.

All of these are factors for why Pakistan has consistently produced fantastic bowling talents - in terms of pure numbers. Now, if Asif and Amir had never fixed, in 2020 we’d still be talking about how Pakistan is the greatest pace bowling nation on earth, with the likes of Junaid, Wahab, Naseem, Hassan, Hasnain, Musa, Rauf, Sohail, etc all being domestic bowlers.

I don’t think Pakistan has seen a demise in fast bowling. Not yet. With the advent of mobile phones, a decreased interest in sports, the demise of school cricket, the impact of terrorism and crime on fewer kids playing tape ball on the streets, rising drug addictions, a lack of bowling superstars to look up to for 10 years before Shaheen who is himself not a superstar yet, and watching our bowlers struggle in the UAE, I do expect a decline in Pakistan’s pace bowling fortunes.

But we will always have a large population, and even with a lower recent passion for cricket we will still be the second most passionate nation in the world after India. What we really need is just one superstar - maybe Shaheen - to galvanize that culture all over again the way Gavaskar and Sachin did for Indian batting, or the way Imran did once upon a time for Pakistani bowling, from a place of complete obscurity.

 

[Mamoon]

I told you in the other thread. All you have to do is look at each 38 FC sides and you will find a better bowler than him in all of those teams. You also cannot seem to decide if you are asking for better bowlers or faster bowlers, because there is a difference between the two.

Either way, Naseem is bowling at 82-83 mph, which is nothing. Moreover, in terms of skill he is zero. He has a big mouth and likes to see fear in batsmen’s eyes but he doesn’t have the skill to take wickets.

India is a top cricket nation. On the other hand, Pakistan is hovering just above minnow level, and our competition is now teams like Sri Lanka and Bangladesh. We need to compare our players with them and not with the likes of Indians who are in a different league.

It is 6:08 am right now and I am in a rush, but it will be interested to look at each and every Indian FC team later today and see the names of bowlers who are better than Mr. “I like to see fear in batsmen’s eyes but I cannot take wickets”...

If you can do the honors yourself and list all the names of the bowling attacks from each Indian FC side, it would be kind of you and would spare me the 10 mins that I can utilize to give Pakistani fans a reality-check in some other thread.

 

[Dingolfy]

Gene mutation. In 80 odd years, this is the first Indian line up of any substance. Unless you are consistently able to replace this current one with fresh bowlers who are equally pacy (and effective), this can not indicate that India has suddenly discovered the art of fast bowling.

Wasn’t most Pakistani fast bowlers Punjabi origin who share the same genes with much of North Indians states like Punjab, Haryana, J&K, Delhi and Himachal?
And gene mutations happen very very slowly and would take thousands of years.
I don’t think so Pakistanis are any much athletically different than Indians. If you were, you would be dominating us in strength sports in SAF games. Ignore the dominance in western sports, look at our Desi sports like Kabaddi( not circle style as it has roided up junkies and has no testing) and Wrestling. When was the last time Pakistan beat Indians in these sports in SAF games? Indian dominance in SAF games wrestling is so huge that we now send only our second string wrestlers as the competition is very poor.
Cricket was an elite game in India for a long time and was player mostly by urban middle-class folks with convent educations. They definitely didn’t have the mindset or ability to ball fast. Now the game is more spread to rural areas and coaching and infrastructure has improved. Hence, the rise in fast bowlers.

 

[NoBallZombie]

Wasn’t most Pakistani fast bowlers Punjabi origin who share the same genes with much of North Indians states like Punjab, Haryana, J&K, Delhi and Himachal?
And gene mutations happen very very slowly and would take thousands of years.
I don’t think so Pakistanis are any much athletically different than Indians. If you were, you would be dominating us in strength sports in SAF games. Ignore the dominance in western sports, look at our Desi sports like Kabaddi( not circle style as it has roided up junkies and has no testing) and Wrestling. When was the last time Pakistan beat Indians in these sports in SAF games? Indian dominance in SAF games wrestling is so huge that we now send only our second string wrestlers as the competition is very poor.
Cricket was an elite game in India for a long time and was player mostly by urban middle-class folks with convent educations. They definitely didn’t have the mindset or ability to ball fast. Now the game is more spread to rural areas and coaching and infrastructure has improved. Hence, the rise in fast bowlers.

The legends have mostly been from Punjab yes and you would see more bowlers coming from the northern side now who are naturally strong.

Your point about the spread of the game makes sense and maybe one of the other factors you guys have a reliable pace battery but only time will tell if you can have a subsequent -- and equally reliable one -- after this one , which would basically indicate that you have a fast bowling culture.

 

[NoBallZombie]

I told you in the other thread. All you have to do is look at each 38 FC sides and you will find a better bowler than him in all of those teams. You also cannot seem to decide if you are asking for better bowlers or faster bowlers, because there is a difference between the two.

Either way, Naseem is bowling at 82-83 mph, which is nothing. Moreover, in terms of skill he is zero. He has a big mouth and likes to see fear in batsmen’s eyes but he doesn’t have the skill to take wickets.

India is a top cricket nation. On the other hand, Pakistan is hovering just above minnow level, and our competition is now teams like Sri Lanka and Bangladesh. We need to compare our players with them and not with the likes of Indians who are in a different league.

It is 6:08 am right now and I am in a rush, but it will be interested to look at each and every Indian FC team later today and see the names of bowlers who are better than Mr. “I like to see fear in batsmen’s eyes but I cannot take wickets”...

If you can do the honors yourself and list all the names of the bowling attacks from each Indian FC side, it would be kind of you and would spare me the 10 mins that I can utilize to give Pakistani fans a reality-check in some other thread.

Please also mention why all the names you put up are better than Naseem or any other bowlers.

 

[Rana]

I told you in the other thread. All you have to do is look at each 38 FC sides and you will find a better bowler than him in all of those teams. You also cannot seem to decide if you are asking for better bowlers or faster bowlers, because there is a difference between the two.

Either way, Naseem is bowling at 82-83 mph, which is nothing. Moreover, in terms of skill he is zero. He has a big mouth and likes to see fear in batsmen’s eyes but he doesn’t have the skill to take wickets.

India is a top cricket nation. On the other hand, Pakistan is hovering just above minnow level, and our competition is now teams like Sri Lanka and Bangladesh. We need to compare our players with them and not with the likes of Indians who are in a different league.

It is 6:08 am right now and I am in a rush, but it will be interested to look at each and every Indian FC team later today and see the names of bowlers who are better than Mr. “I like to see fear in batsmen’s eyes but I cannot take wickets”...

If you can do the honors yourself and list all the names of the bowling attacks from each Indian FC side, it would be kind of you and would spare me the 10 mins that I can utilize to give Pakistani fans a reality-check in some other thread.

Can’t wait for this list of 38

 

[Mamoon]

Please also mention why all the names you put up are better than Naseem or any other bowlers.

For anyone interested in reading why genes are important for fast bowling: https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/fast-bowler-born-made-steff-jones/

Genes are important. After all, fast bowling is labor work, you need strong and robust people to run in and bowl fast all day long and maintain their intensity levels.

Which is why I wonder what happened to Pakistani fast bowling genes, because now we produce bowlers who either get injured after bowling fast in one series or start trundling after bowling fast in one spell.

On the other hand, I look at the current crop of Indian bowlers with no fast bowling genes and I see them not only retaining their fitness from series to series but also retaining their pace from spell to spell

Then there is also a small matter of Abbas opening the bowling attack with 110 kph pies in a country with so-called fast bowling genes...

Furthermore, along with genes, you also need intelligence and the development of that intelligence into bowling IQ.

This where Pakistani fast bowlers with great genes prove to be zero again. They have no idea how to plan against specific batsmen, how to setup batsmen and how to execute whatever half-cooked plans they come up with.

Take a look at how Siraj is bowling in Australia compared to someone like Naseem. On paper, Pakistani fans will thump their chests and say Naseem is far more talented, but one can guarantee that Siraj will have a longer and more prosperous career than Naseem.

Naseem will either get injured and fade away, or he will lose form and fans will blame Misbah, Waqar or whoever is in the firing line, but ultimately, for one reason or another, he is all set to became the latest entry in Pakistan’s one season wonders list.

 

[Mamoon]

Can’t wait for this list of 38

I am looking forward to it as well. Just hoping someone would do this boring work for me but looks like it is not going to happen.

 

[Titan24]

Not at all. It’s an art and requires appreciation, appreciation to the extent you are willing to bowl the long yards and understand the technique of setting batsmen up.

Some parts are genetic. Hyperextension, height. Kyle Jamieson, Jasprit Bumrah, Shoaib Akhtar, Wasim Akram, Shaheen Afridi.

But it’s the culture that transforms those basic raw ingredients into world beaters. Amir for example grew up playing tape ball and his famous story of making it big was bowling 6 yorkers in a row at the age of 14 to Billo Tennis. People think Amir was just naturally talented, but he bowled insane amounts in his small village even before he knew what a hard ball was. That’s what catalyzed the raw ingredients into something more potent.

Last thing that is required is numbers. Population numbers. India has this, hence why there is a sudden jump in bowling quality in India, because cricket is now becoming more accessible to the lowest segment of society. The reason is that the genetic raw ingredients have a higher likelihood of appearing 4 times (for 4 national team fast bowlers) in a population of 1.5 billion or 200 million than in a population of New Zealand.

Unfortunately, the large part of the population in both my country and yours is malnourished and discourages sports as an unprofitable career while New Zealand has a sporting culture offered to well nutritioned kids, with coaches there to scientifically tweak bowling technicals, which is why they have one of the best Test bowling lineups in the world right now.

The reason Pakistan has always made up for these deficiencies is because of an extremely, extremely strong passion for fast bowling created singlehandedly by Imran Khan, and then taken to the next level by Wasim and Waqar. Every kid in the 80s, 90s, and 00s wanted to bowl fast. This is also a reason (there are many more technical and structural reasons, but this is also one of them) for our lack of good batsmen - no one found it as exciting compared to ripping wickets apart.

All of these are factors for why Pakistan has consistently produced fantastic bowling talents - in terms of pure numbers. Now, if Asif and Amir had never fixed, in 2020 we’d still be talking about how Pakistan is the greatest pace bowling nation on earth, with the likes of Junaid, Wahab, Naseem, Hassan, Hasnain, Musa, Rauf, Sohail, etc all being domestic bowlers.

I don’t think Pakistan has seen a demise in fast bowling. Not yet. With the advent of mobile phones, a decreased interest in sports, the demise of school cricket, the impact of terrorism and crime on fewer kids playing tape ball on the streets, rising drug addictions, a lack of bowling superstars to look up to for 10 years before Shaheen who is himself not a superstar yet, and watching our bowlers struggle in the UAE, I do expect a decline in Pakistan’s pace bowling fortunes.

But we will always have a large population, and even with a lower recent passion for cricket we will still be the second most passionate nation in the world after India. What we really need is just one superstar - maybe Shaheen - to galvanize that culture all over again the way Gavaskar and Sachin did for Indian batting, or the way Imran did once upon a time for Pakistani bowling, from a place of complete obscurity.

Well put.

Cricket back in Pakistan is and will be a big boost as young kids will actually be able to see their stars in the stadium. Majority of the cricketers have several such memories which attract them into that world of cricket. Hopefully one or two bowlers can stand up which will provide a modern day role model to the younger kids.

 

[cricketjoshila]

Yes? Why is it not a valid excuse? Why is it difficult for an Indian to accept that Pakistan is still the land of pace and swing, only difference is the current generation of pacers and swingers were caught and the last generation wasn’t?

Again, I repeat, let me see Bumrah, Siraj, Shami banned and we can both observe then how India or any other nation without their top bowlers fares.

What land of pace and swing? How many pakistan pacers have taken 200 test wickets in its entire history?

Compare that to a Australia or a South Africa (since 1992) and we will see which place is the land of pace and swing.

Repeat? Lol. Pakistanis got themselves banned. They returned and then one of them turned tail and ran away from international cricket.

Pakistan has not produced a fast bowler who could take 200 test wickets since Waqar Younis. Thats 31 years.

 

[Shazzam]

Not sure why Naseem is some metric here. He is not even a great bowler. His best performances are against low tier teams. The boy has a lot to prove before we start comparing him to Indian bowling stock which has clearly been better as of late.

 

[Thunderbolt14]

What land of pace and swing? How many pakistan pacers have taken 200 test wickets in its entire history?

Compare that to a Australia or a South Africa (since 1992) and we will see which place is the land of pace and swing.

Repeat? Lol. Pakistanis got themselves banned. They returned and then one of them turned tail and ran away from international cricket.

Pakistan has not produced a fast bowler who could take 200 test wickets since Waqar Younis. Thats 31 years.

It seems you’re not interested to engage in direct discourse but keep repeating the same 200 wickets line over and over. Come back when you’ve read the rest of my post(s) and are willing to write a coherent non-stock response. I will be happy to read it.

 

[AMSS]

No idea exactly where this figure of 38 bowlers come about but is there any doubt over the depth of Indian pace resources compared to, let's say, even Australia. Not even going to mention Pakistan here.

India turned up for this series missing Ishant 2.0. Lost Shami midway thru the 1st test. And lost Umesh in the 2nd test here. And miraculously, pace bowling has been the least of India's headache so far on this tour.

They'd go to the third test without 3 of their top 4 pacers and yet, there wouldn't be a significant dip in quality. Can anyone say the same for Australia if they were to miss 2 out of their top three pace trio? We can all see what's happened to South Africa without their top pacemen available.

 

[AMSS]

Ishant, Bumrah, Shami, Siraj, Saini, Umesh, Bhuvi, Prasidh Krishna, Nagakoti, Mavi, Ankit Rajpoot, K Tyagi, Warrier, Natarajan, Khaleel Ahmed, Aniket Choudhary, Avesh Khan, Kuldeep Sen, Ishwar Pandey, KM Asif, Basil Thampi, Ronit More, Abhimanyu Rajput, Tushar Deshpande, Rajneesh Gurbani, Lalit Yadav, Yash Thakur, Digvijay Deshmukh, Ishan Porel, Pawan Suyal

That's 8 shy of 38. But all of them are well capable of bowling at mid 80s with either vastly superior or equal skill to Naseem. There might be more but these are the bowlers I have seen in past couple of domestic seasons.

 

[Mamoon]

Ishant, Bumrah, Shami, Siraj, Saini, Umesh, Bhuvi, Prasidh Krishna, Nagakoti, Mavi, Ankit Rajpoot, K Tyagi, Warrier, Natarajan, Khaleel Ahmed, Aniket Choudhary, Avesh Khan, Kuldeep Sen, Ishwar Pandey, KM Asif, Basil Thampi, Ronit More, Abhimanyu Rajput, Tushar Deshpande, Rajneesh Gurbani, Lalit Yadav, Yash Thakur, Digvijay Deshmukh, Ishan Porel, Pawan Suyal

That's 8 shy of 38. But all of them are well capable of bowling at mid 80s with either vastly superior or equal skill to Naseem. There might be more but these are the bowlers I have seen in past couple of domestic seasons.

Thank you. I have no doubt in my mind that each and every bowler in this list would outperform Naseem in the international arena if given an opportunity.

Hopefully someone else would do the honors of finding 8 more bowlers so that we can complete the set of 38.

 

[cricketjoshila]

It seems you’re not interested to engage in direct discourse but keep repeating the same 200 wickets line over and over. Come back when you’ve read the rest of my post(s) and are willing to write a coherent non-stock response. I will be happy to read it.

Pakistan has produced 3 fast bowlers who has more than 300 test wickets.

SA since 1991 has produced 6 and another bowler Rabada has 197 wickets and likely to cross 200.

What makes you think Pakistan is the land of pace and swing, when they lag behind SA? Aussies are ofcourse far ahead.

 

[Thunderbolt14]

Pakistan has produced 3 fast bowlers who has more than 300 test wickets.

SA since 1991 has produced 6 and another bowler Rabada has 197 wickets and likely to cross 200.

What makes you think Pakistan is the land of pace and swing, when they lag behind SA? Aussies are ofcourse far ahead.

Again the same line. With all due respect, please engage the points I wrote directly as I would be more than happy to have a constructive discussion even if we disagree. If you’re not interested in that, fair enough.

 

[NishanKonar]

Naseem Shah reminds me of VRV Singh. Run in & bowl 135-140 kph but no swing or seam movement at all or any craft - so no penetration at all

 

[Thunderbolt14]

Naseem Shah reminds me of VRV Singh. Run in & bowl 135-140 kph but no swing or seam movement at all or any craft - so no penetration at all

Was VRV Singh injured and holding back his 150kph deliveries too? Must have missed this great talent

 

[cricketjoshila]

Again the same line. With all due respect, please engage the points I wrote directly as I would be more than happy to have a constructive discussion even if we disagree. If you’re not interested in that, fair enough.

You called pakistan the land of pace and swing, whats the basis?

 

[NishanKonar]

Was VRV Singh injured and holding back his 150kph deliveries too? Must have missed this great talent

Well he apparently used to bowl 150 kph in domestics but in international cricket he was mostly 135-140 kph. Just like Naseem

 

[NishanKonar]

On a serious note - Pak pace attack is so similar to India's attack 15-20 years back. Basically 3-4 guys bowling 130-140 kph with little swing / seam & craftmanship & very low penetration. This was India's attack in the early 2000s. Even though we had a top class batting line up , or bowling was so poor that opposition wud put up 500 plus more often than not & make it difficult for us to win the series

Of course Zaheer re-invented himself as a potent strike bowler after his 2006 Worcester stint & changed things after that

Its not just about pace. Naseem bowls at about same pace as Siraj but the latter looks more likely to take wickets right now. Pakistan needs to worry more about the deficiency in craftmanship rather than pace

 

[Thunderbolt14]

You called pakistan the land of pace and swing, whats the basis?

Maybe you’ll find my reasoning when you read the rest of my post. Thanks. Any other comments?

 

[Thunderbolt14]

Well he apparently used to bowl 150 kph in domestics but in international cricket he was mostly 135-140 kph. Just like Naseem

That’s fantastic, what a pity. I hope the speedguns in Ranji were as accurate as the speedguns in Test cricket employed in Australia, England, and Pakistan? If so, what happened? Did he get injured?

 

[Geil]

In my view if you are comparing the pace bowling between India and Pakistan in recent times, maybe since the start of 2010"s with three formats in picture then what I think is

Pakistan are good at producing raw talent and also if you are comparing who bowls faster that too young Pakistan pacers are ahead when one compares them to young Indian pace talent

Young Indian bowlers may not have the same talent and the fast bowling skills as that of young Pak bowlers but what Indian bowlers develop through their career and what Pak pacers doesn't are the performance at international level

An Indian bowler will develop and improve his game in a way that he will lasts longer and have longer and more successful career at international level than his Pak counterpart

But in terms of raw talent and who bowls faster then Pak is still ahead IMO

 

[Mobashir]

Ishant, Bumrah, Shami, Siraj, Saini, Umesh, Bhuvi, Prasidh Krishna, Nagakoti, Mavi, Ankit Rajpoot, K Tyagi, Warrier, Natarajan, Khaleel Ahmed, Aniket Choudhary, Avesh Khan, Kuldeep Sen, Ishwar Pandey, KM Asif, Basil Thampi, Ronit More, Abhimanyu Rajput, Tushar Deshpande, Rajneesh Gurbani, Lalit Yadav, Yash Thakur, Digvijay Deshmukh, Ishan Porel, Pawan Suyal

That's 8 shy of 38. But all of them are well capable of bowling at mid 80s with either vastly superior or equal skill to Naseem. There might be more but these are the bowlers I have seen in past couple of domestic seasons.

Thank you. I have no doubt in my mind that each and every bowler in this list would outperform Naseem in the international arena if given an opportunity.

Hopefully someone else would do the honors of finding 8 more bowlers so that we can complete the set of 38.

[MENTION=131701]Mamoon[/MENTION] thinks Lalit Yadav, who averages 67.77 in Indian FC cricket, SR 130+ and has a total of 9 wickets in 12 first class matches is a better bowler than Naseem Shah.
[MENTION=2016]Rana[/MENTION], [MENTION=151892]Thunderbolt14[/MENTION] [MENTION=43583]KingKhanWC[/MENTION]

Actually, AMSS could have named the members of his family and Mamoon would have said the same thing. I think he has trolled him here.

 

[Mamoon]

[MENTION=131701]Mamoon[/MENTION] thinks Lalit Yadav, who averages 67.77 in Indian FC cricket, SR 130+ and has a total of 9 wickets in 12 first class matches is a better bowler than Naseem Shah.
[MENTION=2016]Rana[/MENTION], [MENTION=151892]Thunderbolt14[/MENTION] [MENTION=43583]KingKhanWC[/MENTION]

Actually, AMSS could have named the members of his family and Mamoon would have said the same thing. I think he has trolled him here.

India has a never ending conveyor belt of batsmen and their domestic pitches are quite flat, so I will not look into his stats too much. Someone like Naseem will not do much better than him in Indian domestic cricket.

Naseem is averaging 70+ against good lineups. Most Indian domestic batsmen are better than Sri Lankan batsmen.

But this Yadav guy will probably not play international cricket and neither should Naseem. He is just a domestic standard bowler, but unfortunately, Pakistan does not have bowlers of the class of Bumrah, Shami and Ishant Sharma, so nothing bowlers like Naseem get hyped.

 

[Rana]

Ishant, Bumrah, Shami, Siraj, Saini, Umesh, Bhuvi, Prasidh Krishna, Nagakoti, Mavi, Ankit Rajpoot, K Tyagi, Warrier, Natarajan, Khaleel Ahmed, Aniket Choudhary, Avesh Khan, Kuldeep Sen, Ishwar Pandey, KM Asif, Basil Thampi, Ronit More, Abhimanyu Rajput, Tushar Deshpande, Rajneesh Gurbani, Lalit Yadav, Yash Thakur, Digvijay Deshmukh, Ishan Porel, Pawan Suyal

That's 8 shy of 38. But all of them are well capable of bowling at mid 80s with either vastly superior or equal skill to Naseem. There might be more but these are the bowlers I have seen in past couple of domestic seasons.

I know 60-70% of these names

I’ll get them verified from an ECB level 4 coach who should know who most of them are and give you a fair judgement if they are all better than Naseem Shah.

 

[Mobashir]

Ishant, Bumrah, Shami, Siraj, Saini, Umesh, Bhuvi, Prasidh Krishna, Nagakoti, Mavi, Ankit Rajpoot, K Tyagi, Warrier, Natarajan, Khaleel Ahmed, Aniket Choudhary, Avesh Khan, Kuldeep Sen, Ishwar Pandey, KM Asif, Basil Thampi, Ronit More, Abhimanyu Rajput, Tushar Deshpande, Rajneesh Gurbani, Lalit Yadav, Yash Thakur, Digvijay Deshmukh, Ishan Porel, Pawan Suyal

That's 8 shy of 38. But all of them are well capable of bowling at mid 80s with either vastly superior or equal skill to Naseem. There might be more but these are the bowlers I have seen in past couple of domestic seasons.

India has a never ending conveyor belt of batsmen and their domestic pitches are quite flat, so I will not look into his stats too much. Someone like Naseem will not do much better than him in Indian domestic cricket.

Naseem is averaging 70+ against good lineups. Most Indian domestic batsmen are better than Sri Lankan batsmen.

But this Yadav guy will probably not play international cricket and neither should Naseem. He is just a domestic standard bowler, but unfortunately, Pakistan does not have bowlers of the class of Bumrah, Shami and Ishant Sharma, so nothing bowlers like Naseem get hyped.

Question is not about who should play or not play international cricket. Thing is so far you think Yadav guy is better than Naseem Shah.

 

[Rana]

Nagakoti, Mavi, Ankit Rajpoot, K Tyagi, Warrier, Natarajan, Khaleel Ahmed, Aniket Choudhary, Avesh Khan, Kuldeep Sen, Ishwar Pandey, KM Asif, Basil Thampi, Ronit More, Abhimanyu Rajput, Tushar Deshpande, Rajneesh Gurbani, Lalit Yadav, Yash Thakur, Digvijay Deshmukh, Ishan Porel, Pawan Suyal

I can confidently say that you can already disqualify these names from the list unless this is clear propaganda.

These guys have not bowled to the following batsmen at Test level and that too at the age of 17:

Steve Smith
Kane Williamson
Joe Root
Marnus Labushange
Ross Taylor
Ollie Pope
Henry Nichols
Jos Butler
Sri Lanka’s first team batsmen in Test cricket

So if the context of your comparison is what they may have done on Indian tracks against Indian batsmen or some games in the IPL whilst no one remembers who they are, then it is a very poor comparison. You should let the man who made this claim back it up instead of producing names for the sake of it.

 

[Mamoon]

Question is not about who should play or not play international cricket. Thing is so far you think Yadav guy is better than Naseem Shah.

Naseem is a joke of a bowler. It is not hard to be better than him. India is miles ahead of Pakistan as a cricket nation and their players are more intelligent. If this Yadav guy bowls in the same team as Naseem, I won’t be surprised to see Yadav doing better.

 

[Mamoon]

I can confidently say that you can already disqualify these names from the list unless this is clear propaganda.

These guys have not bowled to the following batsmen at Test level and that too at the age of 17:

Steve Smith
Kane Williamson
Joe Root
Marnus Labushange
Ross Taylor
Ollie Pope
Henry Nichols
Jos Butler
Sri Lanka’s first team batsmen in Test cricket

So if the context of your comparison is what they may have done on Indian tracks against Indian batsmen or some games in the IPL whilst no one remembers who they are, then it is a very poor comparison. You should let the man who made this claim back it up instead of producing names for the sake of it.

Firstly, he is not 17.

Secondly, he has bowled to these names and returned with a bowling average of 70+. Hence, he has proved that he is not international material, so his fans shouldn’t be offended to see him getting compared to Indian domestic bowlers.

Sri Lanka is one of the weakest Test sides in the world. They can score 396 against South Africa away but they are also capable of losing to teams like Zimbabwe, just like Pakistan is.

Performances against Sri Lanka do not really prove your international credentials.

 

[Rana]

Firstly, he is not 17.

Secondly, he has bowled to these names and returned with a bowling average of 70+. Hence, he has proved that he is not international material, so his fans shouldn’t be offended to see him getting compared to Indian domestic bowlers.

Sri Lanka is one of the weakest Test sides in the world. They can score 396 against South Africa away but they are also capable of losing to teams like Zimbabwe, just like Pakistan is.

Performances against Sri Lanka do not really prove your international credentials.

As I said, be fair and let those 20 odd names toil against those big names of Test cricket in their backyard on the decks they have provided Naseem. It won’t happen, they won’t ever get a look at until maybe they are 27-30.

So it’s not sensible to make stupid claims that they are clearly better than Naseem.

I do acknowledge the first 6-7 names to be better bowlers than Naseem

 

[Devadwal]

I don't know about 38 or anything but from 5-6 year Indian bowler's way better than Pakistan in all formet.

 

[Tubs]

I'm confused, why have the goal posts been moved from 'better' to 'faster' (or sufficiently fast)?

I'm sure we'd all agree that Philander was far superior to Wahab, Varun Aaron, who both could hit 150kph, for example.

Regardless, 38 seems like a stretch. Naseem Shah is a talent, but I there are many who overhype any Pakistani player that has promise too soon (OP included), but I suppose that counteracts the overzealous naysayers which are almost as prevalent.

Shah is mostly unproven, so I think we can say at this stage Kapil Dev, Zahir Khan, Ishant Sharma, Umesh Yadav, Bhuveneshwar Kumar, and Jasprit Bumrah are all ahead of him, to name a few (but I doubt there are that many more to mention). Though he'll likely surpass most of them in a year or so.

 

[Devadwal]

whatever i have seen naseem bowling until now apart from pace nothing special about him .hope he prove me wrong in future

 

[Local.Dada]

Well he didn’t have a lot of skills to begin with and add the poor fitness to it. However I don’t see the hype about his pace either. From what little I saw in the Pak-Nzl game, he was trundling at 130-133 clicks and huffing and puffing after a few effort balls.

Look he might be 21 and not 17 but still that means he is young and has a long road ahead of him. Hope he works on his skills and gets better. No doubt given his age and natural ability there is some upside.

However while the 38 better bowlers than him might be a figure of speech, it is time people need to ask questions that why a country like Pakistan that has a rich legacy of fast bowlers and a 70+ Year old domestic system needs to fast track a “17” year old based on U-19 WC where his team probably didn’t even qualify to the end.

 

[Abhilash93]

So I have actually taken the bait and made this list of Indian bowlers who can bowl somewhere close to 140 clicks. Obviously, not possible to compare them with an International level bowler like Naseem but still fun to explore the possibilities!

1. Andhra - Yara Prithvi Raj
2. Assam - Abu Nechim
3. Baroda - Hardik Pandya
4. Bengal - Mohd Shami, Ishan Porel
5. Delhi - Ishant Sharma, Navdeep Saini, Kulwant Khejroliya
6. Gujarat - Bumrah
7. Hyderabad - Mohd Siraj
8. J&K - Rasikh Salam
9. Jharkhand - Varun Aaron, Rahul Shukla, Monu Kumar, Sushant Mishra (U19)
10. Karnataka - Prasidh Krishna
11. Kerala - KM Asif, Basil Thampi, Sandeep Warrier
12. MP - Avesh Khan
13. Mumbai - Tushar Deshpande, Shardul Thakur
14. Punjab - Siddarth Kaul, Arshdeep Singh, Barinder Sran
15. Rajasthan - Nagarkoti, Khaleel Ahmed, Deepak Chahar, Nathu Singh, Aniket Chaudhary, Akash Singh (U19)
16. Tamilnadu - T Natarajan
17. UP - Kartik Tyagi, Shivam Mavi, Ankit Rajpoot, Bhuvi
18. Vidarbha - Umesh Yadav

 

[Local.Dada]

So I have actually taken the bait and made this list of Indian bowlers who can bowl somewhere close to 140 clicks. Obviously, not possible to compare them with an International level bowler like Naseem but still fun to explore the possibilities!

1. Andhra - Yara Prithvi Raj
2. Assam - Abu Nechim
3. Baroda - Hardik Pandya
4. Bengal - Mohd Shami, Ishan Porel
5. Delhi - Ishant Sharma, Navdeep Saini, Kulwant Khejroliya
6. Gujarat - Bumrah
7. Hyderabad - Mohd Siraj
8. J&K - Rasikh Salam
9. Jharkhand - Varun Aaron, Rahul Shukla, Monu Kumar, Sushant Mishra (U19)
10. Karnataka - Prasidh Krishna
11. Kerala - KM Asif, Basil Thampi, Sandeep Warrier
12. MP - Avesh Khan
13. Mumbai - Tushar Deshpande, Shardul Thakur
14. Punjab - Siddarth Kaul, Arshdeep Singh, Barinder Sran
15. Rajasthan - Nagarkoti, Khaleel Ahmed, Deepak Chahar, Nathu Singh, Aniket Chaudhary, Akash Singh (U19)
16. Tamilnadu - T Natarajan
17. UP - Kartik Tyagi, Shivam Mavi, Ankit Rajpoot, Bhuvi
18. Vidarbha - Umesh Yadav

You are also probably going solely by speed.skills and utility wise don’t forget guys like Thakur, Chahar and a few others who are miles ahead of most Pakistani cricketers as a total package, when it comes to overall skills.

 

[Rana]

So I have actually taken the bait and made this list of Indian bowlers who can bowl somewhere close to 140 clicks. Obviously, not possible to compare them with an International level bowler like Naseem but still fun to explore the possibilities!

1. Andhra - Yara Prithvi Raj
2. Assam - Abu Nechim
3. Baroda - Hardik Pandya
4. Bengal - Mohd Shami, Ishan Porel
5. Delhi - Ishant Sharma, Navdeep Saini, Kulwant Khejroliya
6. Gujarat - Bumrah
7. Hyderabad - Mohd Siraj
8. J&K - Rasikh Salam
9. Jharkhand - Varun Aaron, Rahul Shukla, Monu Kumar, Sushant Mishra (U19)
10. Karnataka - Prasidh Krishna
11. Kerala - KM Asif, Basil Thampi, Sandeep Warrier
12. MP - Avesh Khan
13. Mumbai - Tushar Deshpande, Shardul Thakur
14. Punjab - Siddarth Kaul, Arshdeep Singh, Barinder Sran
15. Rajasthan - Nagarkoti, Khaleel Ahmed, Deepak Chahar, Nathu Singh, Aniket Chaudhary, Akash Singh (U19)
16. Tamilnadu - T Natarajan
17. UP - Kartik Tyagi, Shivam Mavi, Ankit Rajpoot, Bhuvi
18. Vidarbha - Umesh Yadav

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jGR0HHZX55w

Is this the Monu Kumar you are referring to as a better fast bowler than Naseem Shah?

 

[Saurav]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jGR0HHZX55w

Is this the Monu Kumar you are referring to as a better fast bowler than Naseem Shah?

Multi talented

 

[Rana]

Multi talented

Well he is definitely a better singer than Naseem Shah

 

[mystical man]

Maybe you’ll find my reasoning when you read the rest of my post. Thanks. Any other comments?

What exactly have the pace bowlers done for Pakistan in the last 20 years? Please enlighten me if they won a series against Australia NZ or the Saffers....
Pace bowling has regressed in Pakistan over the years whereas that is not the case with India if you compare us to the 80s and 90s ....

 

[Nikhil_cric]

India does not have anywhere near the amount of natural ability that young Pakistani Pacers have. Pakistan have Hasan, Naseem, Shaheen, Akif, Shanawaz, Hasnain, Musa, Rauf, Arshad and the the potential if some of these guys is probably way ahead of the Indian pacers mentioned - many of whom are not even that young.

That is not the issue, however. The fact is, Pakistan have not produced a decent seam attack in ages despite this difference. They get hyped to the moon after clocking a random speed gun number and then get injured or their real age catches up to them or they lack the skill and stamina for 20 overs a day etc. and end up disappearing altogether.

So what exactly is the point of producing so many talented bowlers?

 

[Rana]

India does not have anywhere near the amount of natural ability that young Pakistani Pacers have. Pakistan have Hasan, Naseem, Shaheen, Akif, Shanawaz, Hasnain, Musa, Rauf, Arshad and the the potential if some of these guys is probably way ahead of the Indian pacers mentioned - many of whom are not even that young.

That is not the issue, however. The fact is, Pakistan have not produced a decent seam attack in ages despite this difference. They get hyped to the moon after clocking a random speed gun number and then get injured or their real age catches up to them or they lack the skill and stamina for 20 overs a day etc. and end up disappearing altogether.

So what exactly is the point of producing so many talented bowlers?

LOL so we should stop producing talented bowlers just because we cant work out a final combination?

 

[Nikhil_cric]

LOL so we should stop producing talented bowlers just because we cant work out a final combination?

My point is what is the point of even creating such threads and comparing with Indian bowlers - who have historically neither been quick nor great - just to highlight their potential. Surely they should have a bit more than that Combination is another excuse. You have been searching for combinations since the 2W's retired.

 

[Nikhil_cric]

Fact is, we have had a superior pace attack over the past 5 years or so and our overall bowling attack, including spinners, has comfortably been better than the likes of the Pakistani attack. Threads like these just reek of insecurity since some Pakistanis simply cant digest that an Indian bowling attack has consistently outperformed them for a few years now.

 

[Rana]

My point is what is the point of even creating such threads and comparing with Indian bowlers - who have historically neither been quick nor great - just to highlight their potential. Surely they should have a bit more than that Combination is another excuse. You have been searching for combinations since the 2W's retired.

We have had lots of temporary combinations but yes not a sustained combo for 10 years. This is missing for sure. Hopefully our management do not get bored and discard Naseem now that they have invested so much time in him and got him to bowl so many overs in a year or so. Naseem+Shaheen and hopefully Akif or Shahnawaz will step in soon and you may see a bowling attack for a sustained amount of time.

 

[Nikhil_cric]

We have had lots of temporary combinations but yes not a sustained combo for 10 years. This is missing for sure. Hopefully our management do not get bored and discard Naseem now that they have invested so much time in him and got him to bowl so many overs in a year or so. Naseem+Shaheen and hopefully Akif or Shahnawaz will step in soon and you may see a bowling attack for a sustained amount of time.

And until such time as you have a settled attack that consistently performs , all this hyping will look ridiculous

 

[Local.Dada]

India does not have anywhere near the amount of natural ability that young Pakistani Pacers have. Pakistan have Hasan, Naseem, Shaheen, Akif, Shanawaz, Hasnain, Musa, Rauf, Arshad and the the potential if some of these guys is probably way ahead of the Indian pacers mentioned - many of whom are not even that young.

That is not the issue, however. The fact is, Pakistan have not produced a decent seam attack in ages despite this difference. They get hyped to the moon after clocking a random speed gun number and then get injured or their real age catches up to them or they lack the skill and stamina for 20 overs a day etc. and end up disappearing altogether.

So what exactly is the point of producing so many talented bowlers?

I disagree there. Haris Rauf for example, was picked after 1-2 seasons of PsL because he can bowl Yorkers etc and over 135 clicks, he might potentially even play test cricket some time in the future.

Take a look at Natarajan, an equally good if not better t20 bowler. Better based on performance in IPL (high benchmark) and a top class side like Aus that too their first string team. Do we give him the same kind of hype? Also it took Natarajan a lot more hoops to jump before playing for india, Pakistan seems to induct any guy who can hit 140’s and has a decent PSL match.

Forget Gill,Bumrah,Pandya If someone like SKY or Samson or a bishnoi would be available they would have already played 50+ odis and 10-15 tests for Pak based on their IPl legacy or potential talent.

So one flash in the Pan knock or spell by such guys make it seem like there is a lot of “natural” talent. To a lesser extent you see this in WI as well. Someone comes in, then tapers off and becomes a mercenary because they don’t have sustainability and that is because there is no process or method to the madness which is were the top 3 teams are in a different league.

 

[Rana]

And until such time as you have a settled attack that consistently performs , all this hyping will look ridiculous

Some have hyped, others have hoped.

But we are looking for 38 names in this thread. Its the year 2020, if Z340 can be solved then so can I38 (Indian 38 fast bowlers who are faster and better than Naseem)

 

[Couch Cricketer]

Pakistan's problem in the last 10-15 years is because we never had a real professional system for first class cricket. Most of our past bowling greats might have been found raw but they actually honed their skills and became professional cricketers by playing in English county cricket a higher and professional system compared to ours. Even today Pakistan might have more raw fast bowling talent compared to India but India after setting up pace academies 15-20 years ago and its younger players playing in IPL with the worlds greats has resulted in India funnelling in 5-6 good to great bowlers into the national side. And that's all you really need whats the point of dozens of raw fast bowlers in the wings if you can't get 4-5 good professional bowlers into the side for us.

 

[leg-side-flick]

Not at all. It’s an art and requires appreciation, appreciation to the extent you are willing to bowl the long yards and understand the technique of setting batsmen up.

Some parts are genetic. Hyperextension, height. Kyle Jamieson, Jasprit Bumrah, Shoaib Akhtar, Wasim Akram, Shaheen Afridi.

But it’s the culture that transforms those basic raw ingredients into world beaters. Amir for example grew up playing tape ball and his famous story of making it big was bowling 6 yorkers in a row at the age of 14 to Billo Tennis. People think Amir was just naturally talented, but he bowled insane amounts in his small village even before he knew what a hard ball was. That’s what catalyzed the raw ingredients into something more potent.

Last thing that is required is numbers. Population numbers. India has this, hence why there is a sudden jump in bowling quality in India, because cricket is now becoming more accessible to the lowest segment of society. The reason is that the genetic raw ingredients have a higher likelihood of appearing 4 times (for 4 national team fast bowlers) in a population of 1.5 billion or 200 million than in a population of New Zealand.

Unfortunately, the large part of the population in both my country and yours is malnourished and discourages sports as an unprofitable career while New Zealand has a sporting culture offered to well nutritioned kids, with coaches there to scientifically tweak bowling technicals, which is why they have one of the best Test bowling lineups in the world right now.

The reason Pakistan has always made up for these deficiencies is because of an extremely, extremely strong passion for fast bowling created singlehandedly by Imran Khan, and then taken to the next level by Wasim and Waqar. Every kid in the 80s, 90s, and 00s wanted to bowl fast. This is also a reason (there are many more technical and structural reasons, but this is also one of them) for our lack of good batsmen - no one found it as exciting compared to ripping wickets apart.

All of these are factors for why Pakistan has consistently produced fantastic bowling talents - in terms of pure numbers. Now, if Asif and Amir had never fixed, in 2020 we’d still be talking about how Pakistan is the greatest pace bowling nation on earth, with the likes of Junaid, Wahab, Naseem, Hassan, Hasnain, Musa, Rauf, Sohail, etc all being domestic bowlers.

I don’t think Pakistan has seen a demise in fast bowling. Not yet. With the advent of mobile phones, a decreased interest in sports, the demise of school cricket, the impact of terrorism and crime on fewer kids playing tape ball on the streets, rising drug addictions, a lack of bowling superstars to look up to for 10 years before Shaheen who is himself not a superstar yet, and watching our bowlers struggle in the UAE, I do expect a decline in Pakistan’s pace bowling fortunes.

But we will always have a large population, and even with a lower recent passion for cricket we will still be the second most passionate nation in the world after India. What we really need is just one superstar - maybe Shaheen - to galvanize that culture all over again the way Gavaskar and Sachin did for Indian batting, or the way Imran did once upon a time for Pakistani bowling, from a place of complete obscurity.

The demise of Pak fast bowling started with decline of Reverse swing, the earlier greats of 80's and 90's thrived on it. They would MAKE the ball, with Pepsi bootlecaps as there were no cameras to monitor, then all they had to do was wait for ball to get old. And once it did, just bowl as fast as possible and deceive batsman with guile and speed.

Just see the record of Wasim / Waqar / Akhtar / Umar Guls with new ball vs old ball, it's chalk and cheese. The teams would regularly crumble from 115/2 to 160 all out.

Things have changed now, so many cameras, far higher and career threatening punishments if caught, have essentially seen the decline of reverse swing.

And that's where the problem lies with Pakistan, the current crop is compared to earlier ones but these poor chaps are handicapped as they can't swing the old cherry. Imagine Shaheen Shah Afridi bowling in 80's under Imran Khan with a made up ball, this guy would run through sides every day.

So on topic this jazba and Junoon may not revive pak fast bowling, having Waqar as bowling coach is also pretty dumb, that guy took years in international cricket to learn how to bowl with a new ball.

 

[Dingolfy]

The demise of Pak fast bowling started with decline of Reverse swing, the earlier greats of 80's and 90's thrived on it. They would MAKE the ball, with Pepsi bootlecaps as there were no cameras to monitor, then all they had to do was wait for ball to get old. And once it did, just bowl as fast as possible and deceive batsman with guile and speed.

Just see the record of Wasim / Waqar / Akhtar / Umar Guls with new ball vs old ball, it's chalk and cheese. The teams would regularly crumble from 115/2 to 160 all out.

Things have changed now, so many cameras, far higher and career threatening punishments if caught, have essentially seen the decline of reverse swing.

And that's where the problem lies with Pakistan, the current crop is compared to earlier ones but these poor chaps are handicapped as they can't swing the old cherry. Imagine Shaheen Shah Afridi bowling in 80's under Imran Khan with a made up ball, this guy would run through sides every day.

So on topic this jazba and Junoon may not revive pak fast bowling, having Waqar as bowling coach is also pretty dumb, that guy took years in international cricket to learn how to bowl with a new ball.

I am pretty sure there were plenty of cameras in the time when Umar gul thrived. What killed reverse swing in LOI are the two new balls.

 

[AMSS]

Naseem is an up and down trundler. He won't get a place in Vidarbha team ahead of Lalit Yadav.

 

[Rana]

Naseem is an up and down trundler. He won't get a place in Vidarbha team ahead of Lalit Yadav.

You took the bait and produced some names

And Naseem just took the wickets of Kane, Latham and Nichols instead. But Lalit Yadav might take all 10 wickets against NZ so you are probably right

 

[AMSS]

You took the bait and produced some names

And Naseem just took the wickets of Kane, Latham and Nichols instead. But Lalit Yadav might take all 10 wickets against NZ so you are probably right

Was a nice little exercise for me tbh. Naseem pouching cheap wickets against a team looking for quick runs proves nothing. Lalit is quicker with a better radar. More skilled too.

 

[El Generico]

Naseem is an up and down trundler. He won't get a place in Vidarbha team ahead of Lalit Yadav.

Good to see that Pakistan is not the only country with delusional fans.

 

[Kingpin786]

Was a nice little exercise for me tbh. Naseem pouching cheap wickets against a team looking for quick runs proves nothing. Lalit is quicker with a better radar. More skilled too.

Do you know bumrah was trundling at 128 to135 kph in against New Zealand in first test

 

[AMSS]

Do you know bumrah was trundling at 128 to135 kph in against New Zealand in first test

Presumably to show he can trundle too like, let's say, Amir or Shaheen?

 

[TheRock]

I don't think any Indian fan cares wheather it's 38 seamers or none. As long as India keep winning tests in Australia without Ishant, Shami (and having an injured Umesh)

 

[Hyperion66]

We have decimated Aus without 2 of our key bowlers, dunno about 38 thingy but Pak bowling is at least half a dozen tiers below.

 

[Indiafan]

You took the bait and produced some names

And Naseem just took the wickets of Kane, Latham and Nichols instead. But Lalit Yadav might take all 10 wickets against NZ so you are probably right

Easiest way in tests to take wickets is when batmen are swinging blindly trying to set up a target

Meanwhile Siraj took wickets of those defending. Australia havent crossed 200 yet in this series

 

[Kingpin786]

Presumably to show he can trundle too like, let's say, Amir or Shaheen?

shaheen has bowled from 135 to 143kph in this test

 

[Hyperion66]

Do you know bumrah was trundling at 128 to135 kph in against New Zealand in first test

128kph is like Abbas' dream speed that he hopes to achieve one day.

 

[Buffet]

Well he didn’t have a lot of skills to begin with and add the poor fitness to it. However I don’t see the hype about his pace either. From what little I saw in the Pak-Nzl game, he was trundling at 130-133 clicks and huffing and puffing after a few effort balls.

Look he might be 21 and not 17 but still that means he is young and has a long road ahead of him. Hope he works on his skills and gets better. No doubt given his age and natural ability there is some upside.

However while the 38 better bowlers than him might be a figure of speech, it is time people need to ask questions that why a country like Pakistan that has a rich legacy of fast bowlers and a 70+ Year old domestic system needs to fast track a “17” year old based on U-19 WC where his team probably didn’t even qualify to the end.

Rahane said after the historic Aus test win - " Bowlers having played 4-5 years in the first-class know what to do when they bowl in test matches. It's so much easier. "

I think Pakistan is missing a trick here by throwing bowlers without experience in the test. It's bad for Pakistan and it's bad for bowlers.

 

[sindhiboy]

Easiest way in tests to take wickets is when batmen are swinging blindly trying to set up a target

Meanwhile Siraj took wickets of those defending. Australia havent crossed 200 yet in this series

They basically gave Naseem those wickets on a platter

 

[Oxfordchamp]

And people here keep saying PSL has better bowlers than IPL..this will shut those people too..Whether it is IPL, ODI T20s or tests, Indian bowling is far superior to Pakistans..

 

[Mamoon]

You took the bait and produced some names

And Naseem just took the wickets of Kane, Latham and Nichols instead. But Lalit Yadav might take all 10 wickets against NZ so you are probably right

You know the desperation is high when fans are talking about cheap wickets at an economy rate of 4.50 with the batsmen swinging blindly at everything.

Reminds me of the England series where his fans were left picking up scraps and celebrating the two good deliveries he bowled to Root after predicting that he will be the highest wicket-taker of the series.

He is a poor bowler who doesn’t belong in international cricket. Accept it.

 

[Mamoon]

The demise of Pak fast bowling started with decline of Reverse swing, the earlier greats of 80's and 90's thrived on it. They would MAKE the ball, with Pepsi bootlecaps as there were no cameras to monitor, then all they had to do was wait for ball to get old. And once it did, just bowl as fast as possible and deceive batsman with guile and speed.

Just see the record of Wasim / Waqar / Akhtar / Umar Guls with new ball vs old ball, it's chalk and cheese. The teams would regularly crumble from 115/2 to 160 all out.

Things have changed now, so many cameras, far higher and career threatening punishments if caught, have essentially seen the decline of reverse swing.

And that's where the problem lies with Pakistan, the current crop is compared to earlier ones but these poor chaps are handicapped as they can't swing the old cherry. Imagine Shaheen Shah Afridi bowling in 80's under Imran Khan with a made up ball, this guy would run through sides every day.

So on topic this jazba and Junoon may not revive pak fast bowling, having Waqar as bowling coach is also pretty dumb, that guy took years in international cricket to learn how to bowl with a new ball.

Totally agree with this. Waqar in particular was the biggest beneficiary of bowling with those balls. The banana yorkers that shot him o fame are not possible without heavily tampered balls.

Wasim and Imran were quality bowlers with the new ball as well, but Waqar didn’t learn to use the new ball until 2001-2002 and he was just a good bowler then.

Waqar would have been an ordinary bowler in this era. Wasim and Imran would still be world class, but with slightly inferior statistics.

 

[Nikhil_cric]

I am pretty sure there were plenty of cameras in the time when Umar gul thrived. What killed reverse swing in LOI are the two new balls.

And the cameras have caught Gul tampering as well.

 

[AMSS]

I don't see what was the need to remove my post with Lalit Yadad's bowling. Everyone could objectively see him in action and judge how he fares against Naseem.

 

[El Generico]

Easiest way in tests to take wickets is when batmen are swinging blindly trying to set up a target

Meanwhile Siraj took wickets of those defending. Australia havent crossed 200 yet in this series

Wait are Latit Yadav and Siraj the same person? I am confused, how does Siraj taking wickets prove that Lalit Yadav is better than Shah?

 

[Nikhil_cric]

The demise of Pak fast bowling started with decline of Reverse swing, the earlier greats of 80's and 90's thrived on it. They would MAKE the ball, with Pepsi bootlecaps as there were no cameras to monitor, then all they had to do was wait for ball to get old. And once it did, just bowl as fast as possible and deceive batsman with guile and speed.

Just see the record of Wasim / Waqar / Akhtar / Umar Guls with new ball vs old ball, it's chalk and cheese. The teams would regularly crumble from 115/2 to 160 all out.

Things have changed now, so many cameras, far higher and career threatening punishments if caught, have essentially seen the decline of reverse swing.

And that's where the problem lies with Pakistan, the current crop is compared to earlier ones but these poor chaps are handicapped as they can't swing the old cherry. Imagine Shaheen Shah Afridi bowling in 80's under Imran Khan with a made up ball, this guy would run through sides every day.

So on topic this jazba and Junoon may not revive pak fast bowling, having Waqar as bowling coach is also pretty dumb, that guy took years in international cricket to learn how to bowl with a new ball.

A very good post. Bowlers in the past had very little scrutiny on them. Lifting seams, scratching one side, gouging with bottlecaps. I will never blame Pakistani bowlers alone. Every other team used to do that and English county was the hotbed of tampering and were the worst hypocrites when it came to tampering. There's a documentary covering it in which Alec Stewart admitted as much. Nobody seemed to have a problem when Waqar was tampering and the Surrey players were doing the tampering for him in '91. Only became an issue when Pakistan toured in '92 and Pakistan was doing the tampering. I'm glad and happy that Pakistani teams exploited a tampered ball much better than other teams did.

The problem though seems to be that a lot of posters and possibly even the management keep yearning for those glory days when the bowlers pursued attacking 'fuller than good' lengths with broken toes and shattered stumps. That mentality has to change. You need bowlers who can combine high pace and movement to do that and only 1 bowler has managed that in the last 15 odd years - Steyn(who could swing the new kookaburra significantly at high pace) .

Otherwise , its all about bashing that good length all day with the odd bouncer ala Pat Cummins. Nothing else works.

 

[AMSS]

[MENTION=131701]Mamoon[/MENTION] thinks Lalit Yadav, who averages 67.77 in Indian FC cricket, SR 130+ and has a total of 9 wickets in 12 first class matches is a better bowler than Naseem Shah.
[MENTION=2016]Rana[/MENTION], [MENTION=151892]Thunderbolt14[/MENTION] [MENTION=43583]KingKhanWC[/MENTION]

Actually, AMSS could have named the members of his family and Mamoon would have said the same thing. I think he has trolled him here.

LMAO, I missed this one.

Dude, do you even know how to internet? Here's Lalit Yadav's profile.

https://www.espncricinfo.com/india/content/player/1060363.html

Averages 27 bowling on the flattest track in India. SR of 52. Watch his bowling videos on Youtube, he's like 3 levels better than Naseem.

 

[Mobashir]

LMAO, I missed this one.

Dude, do you even know how to internet? Here's Lalit Yadav's profile.

https://www.espncricinfo.com/india/content/player/1060363.html

Averages 27 bowling on the flattest track in India. SR of 52. Watch his bowling videos on Youtube, he's like 3 levels better than Naseem.

Whoever your unknown player is it's pointless to compare them with someone who has in 6/7 tests taken wickets of Warner, Root, Williamson, à test hattrick.