Is AB de Villiers an ATG?

[SLcric123]

Regardless of any particular format, on a whole, does de Villiers makes it to the elite list of ATGs?

He has got stats, longevity(8k+ runs), peers reputation, fan following and has performed in all conditions and against all types of bowling.

Avgs 50+ in both tests and odis.

 

[Sachin136]

He is certainly one of the top 10 ODI batsmen of all time and very good in tests (a little underwhelming in T20Is though). I don't see why he wouldn't be considered an ATG.

 

[Hasan123]

In Odis he's close to ATG level, problem is in icc tournaments he hasn't won a knockout game for SA or he hasn't dominated a tournament. He has good stats though but don't think he is quite ATG level in Odis.

In tests he certainly isn't a ATG. When SA have needed him after the retirements of smith and kallis he hasn't exactly stepped up. Also it's difficult to remember many impactful knocks he has had in tests. He has played some good knocks but for the most part in his test career he's played 2nd fiddle to Amla, Smith, and Kallis.

In t20s his record is really poor for someone with his ability in LO formats.

 

[Bilal7]

Can get there by the end of his career.

 

[SLcric123]

he hasn't dominated a tournament.

Avgs 96.4 @SR of 144.31 in 2015 WC with 1 100s and 3 50s and got ran out in one of the games.

Isn't this dominating?

 

[Hasan123]

Avgs 96.4 @SR of 144.31 in 2015 WC with 1 100s and 3 50s and got ran out in one of the games.

Isn't this dominating?

Lol the century was vs West Indies. Against us he chocked and didn't do enough vs India albeit the fielding by yadav was pretty good.

 

[kingusama92]

Definitely an ODI ATG. He did well enough in that 2015 WC.

In tests, he isn't. Just a South African great.

 

[SLcric123]

Lol the century was vs West Indies. Against us he chocked and didn't do enough vs India albeit the fielding by yadav was pretty good.

What?? How many players avg 96 @SR 144 due to minnow bashing??

Has got 25 vs Zim and 24 vs Ireland..

And you missed his 65* vs NZ..

And you are speaking as if its so easy to maintain an avg of 96 with a unprecedented SR of 144, also being one of the leading scorer in tournament batting down the order at 5.

That's blasphemy.

 

[Hasan123]

What?? How many players avg 96 @SR 144 due to minnow bashing??

Has got 25 vs Zim and 24 vs Ireland..

And you missed his 65* vs NZ..

And you are speaking as if its so easy to maintain an avg of 96 with a unprecedented SR of 144, also being one of the leading scorer in tournament batting down the order at 5.

That's blasphemy.

One thing your forgetting is that it was one of the most batting friendly tournaments in years. Yes it's not easy to have a 96 average with that strike rate your right. So he flopped in the games vs zim and Ireland. He flopped vs Pakistan and India. So that means he performed in 2 games. So is that an ATG performance performing in 2 games? He has flopped in previous ice tournaments as well.

In Odis he's boaderline ATG status, if he can score a winning knock in a semi final or even better in a final he will have earned ATG status in Odis. In tests I don't see him getting ATG status. So overall he can finish as an ATG in one format and very good in another.

 

[Abdullah719]

One thing your forgetting is that it was one of the most batting friendly tournaments in years. Yes it's not easy to have a 96 average with that strike rate your right. So he flopped in the games vs zim and Ireland. He flopped vs Pakistan and India. So that means he performed in 2 games. So is that an ATG performance performing in 2 games? He has flopped in previous ice tournaments as well.

In Odis he's boaderline ATG status, if he can score a winning knock in a semi final or even better in a final he will have earned ATG status in Odis. In tests I don't see him getting ATG status. So overall he can finish as an ATG in one format and very good in another.

If he scores a match-winning knock in a SF or Final of a World Cup, he will surely be rated as one of the top 3 ODI batsmen ever.

I don't think his ATG status in ODIs is in question.

 

[SLcric123]

One thing your forgetting is that it was one of the most batting friendly tournaments in years. Yes it's not easy to have a 96 average with that strike rate your right. So he flopped in the games vs zim and Ireland. He flopped vs Pakistan and India. So that means he performed in 2 games. So is that an ATG performance performing in 2 games? He has flopped in previous ice tournaments as well.

In Odis he's boaderline ATG status, if he can score a winning knock in a semi final or even better in a final he will have earned ATG status in Odis. In tests I don't see him getting ATG status. So overall he can finish as an ATG in one format and very good in another.

So you are discarding his 162 vs WI and counting his failures vs likes of Zim and Ireland?

And even in that batting friendly tournament, how many players avg higher than him?

He has a overall avg of 63 in WC at a SR of 110. How is he a failure in previous WCs?

Claiming that he is not an ATG in odis is like debating if Steyn is an ATG or not in tests.

I agree with you that in tests, he is heavily overrated.

 

[Hasan123]

If he scores a match-winning knock in a SF or Final of a World Cup, he will surely be rated as one of the top 3 ODI batsmen ever.

I don't think his ATG status in ODIs is in question.

If people consider him atg in odis I don't have a problem with it. But I think he is boaderline until he has a match winning knock in an icc tournament semi/final.

Many fans on social media consider him one of the greatest batsmen ever in both formats and some pundits consider him a great across all formats. I don't agree with this theory as I think he isn't as good in tests as made out.

 

[Hasan123]

So you are discarding his 162 vs WI and counting his failures vs likes of Zim and Ireland?

And even in that batting friendly tournament, how many players avg higher than him?

He has a overall avg of 63 in WC at a SR of 110. How is he a failure in previous WCs?

Claiming that he is not an ATG in odis is like debating if Steyn is an ATG or not in tests.

I agree with you that in tests, he is heavily overrated.

Its a case of stats being misleading. Yes he has a high average but when it comes to the knockout rounds he isn't playing a match winning knock and taking SA over the line.

If he is the great you claim him to be, in 11 years of international cricket he should have been able to play at least one match winning knock in a semi or a final which he hasn't.

I don't think he is a big a choker as some of the other SA players but in crucial moments he loses the plot because instead of playing to the match situation he follows his instinct. An example is his dismissal vs Pakistan in the 2015 world cup. There was no need for that shot yet he followed his attacking instinct and got out. In fact that dismissal sums up his icc tournament history, some good moments but ultimately failing in the crucial period when SA need him the most.

If you want to consider him atg that's fine but I whole heartedly disagree when he is called the greatest batsmen ever in odis.

 

[SLcric123]

Its a case of stats being misleading. Yes he has a high average but when it comes to the knockout rounds he isn't playing a match winning knock and taking SA over the line.

If he is the great you claim him to be, in 11 years of international cricket he should have been able to play at least one match winning knock in a semi or a final which he hasn't.

I don't think he is a big a choker as some of the other SA players but in crucial moments he loses the plot because instead of playing to the match situation he follows his instinct. An example is his dismissal vs Pakistan in the 2015 world cup. There was no need for that shot yet he followed his attacking instinct and got out. In fact that dismissal sums up his icc tournament history, some good moments but ultimately failing in the crucial period when SA need him the most.

If you want to consider him atg that's fine but I whole heartedly disagree when he is called the greatest batsmen ever in odis.

I was talking of ATG.

Greatest batsmen ever is out of question. That's Viv Richards.And I would take Kohli as current best odi player.

However, playing for SA doesn't help his cause much.

 

[Buffet]

In ODI he is an ATG without any if and buts. If Australian, Indian or Pakistani had that kind of record this question wouldn't even come for ODI format in PP.

In Test, he has been the second best batsman after Amla in the last 7-8 years. Amla looks to be in decline in the last few series and AB hasn't played so can't say for sure, but I think AB has few more years of top performance in him. He needs to step up a bit in the test format to get into ATG category.

 

[Justcrazy]

In OD he is ATG , the kind of shots he can play is exceptional.

 

[Abdullah719]

If he is the great you claim him to be, in 11 years of international cricket he should have been able to play at least one match winning knock in a semi or a final which he hasn't.

He has played 4 WC knockouts in those 11 years. He didn't bat in one. In another one, he was on his way towards batting New Zealand out of the game before a rain interruption.

I don't think the remaining failures in two matches should define his status as an ODI player.

If he plays a match-winning knock in a WC knockout game sometime later in his career, that will enhance his status.

But I think he has done enough to be recognised as one of the greatest ever ODI batsmen.

 

[Sachin136]

He has played 4 WC knockouts in those 11 years. He didn't bat in one. In another one, he was on his way towards batting New Zealand out of the game before a rain interruption.

I don't think the remaining failures in two matches should define his status as an ODI player.

If he plays a match-winning knock in a WC knockout game sometime later in his career, that will enhance his status.

But I think he has done enough to be recognised as one of the greatest ever ODI batsmen.

No, he hid behind Faf and Russouw (not befitting a captain in the semis, with rain inbound) and then came out at the end to smash a few easy runs with miller.

 

[Abdullah719]

No, he hid behind Faf and Russouw (not befitting a captain in the semis, with rain inbound) and then came out at the end to smash a few easy runs with miller.

That was obviously the batting plan from beforehand. Faf and Rossouw usually batted above AB in the other games as well, so it's not like he demoted himself specifically for the SF.

Each player had a role in that lineup. AB's role was to take the attack to the opposition once the base had been set and neither Faf nor Rossouw were better suited to that role.

I understand that people have different views regarding this and that's fine.

 

[Mamoon]

Not for me, I don't rate him.

 

[The_Odd_One]

Not for me, I don't rate him.

Why not?

Highly rated by peers
Excellent in all conditions
Insane peak

 

[The_Odd_One]

Yes, he is an ATG. He is one of the greatest ODI batsmen and a very good test batsman. Remember that he has kept wickets too.

 

[joly]

ATG in Odis,Not in tests overall South african great<AB<ATG

 

[Ab Fan]

Should wait till his career end...

No point in clutching straws unnecessarily.

 

[Suleiman]

We'll see after CT 2017 or WC 2019.

 

[ahmadharis1]

In my opinion yes. His statistics are exceptional and his ability to play fluently around the entire field is amazing. Although I think he is an ATG I agree with others here that he still needs a solid innings in a WC to solidify his place

 

[Dr_Bassim]

Actually he is an ODI great.

ATG of ODI ? No. He just doesn't turn up well enough in World Cups in crucial games for South Africa to make it to WC semifinals or finals.

Compare that to Ponting, and ODI ATG , with Match winning performances in World Cups. Compare it to Bevan an ODI ATG, with amazing average coming at no 6. Compare that to MSD, an ODI ATG , with amazing ability to finish games.

What has AB Got ahead of all of them?

The only reason why he is ODI great, is because he has insane ability to turn games on their head with his hitting skills. But that's not enough. Your ODI batting should define something.

AB fails more often than not, to steer South Africa to wins in major World Tournaments.

An ODI great, but not an ODI ATG.

 

[Red Devil]

He will put the debate to rest by the time he finishes his career. Too good not to.

 

[Sachin136]

I'm not a big fan but not calling him an ATG in ODIs because he hasn't performed in World Cup KOs is ridiculous. By that logic, Kohli is a mediocre ODI player because he has done nothing of substance in ODI WCs.

 

[Chrish]

I'm not a big fan but not calling him an ATG in ODIs because he hasn't performed in World Cup KOs is ridiculous. By that logic, Kohli is a mediocre ODI player because he has done nothing of substance in ODI WCs.

He did.

http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/match/656491.html

 

[Sachin136]

He did.

http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/match/656491.html

As I mentioned before, I was very disappointed with him in that match. The openers got dismissed early and despite knowing that it was going to rain, he let Faf and Rossouw do all the hard work before coming out and hitting a few boundaries alongside Miller. I would have expected more from an ATG batsman and captain.

Still, that doesn't mean he isn't a genuine ATG in that format.

 

[Chrish]

As I mentioned before, I was very disappointed with him in that match. The openers got dismissed early and despite knowing that it was going to rain, he let Faf and Rossouw do all the hard work before coming out and hitting a few boundaries alongside Miller. I would have expected more from an ATG batsman and captain.

Still, that doesn't mean he isn't a genuine ATG in that format.

You are spouting rubbish..

Slogging off and scoring those quick runs in semi final is by no mean easy feat (even after considering one dropped catch). So he has performed in WC KO

He is never an upper order bat. His role is different

This is one case where SA were clearly robbed from the chance of winning match (although I firmly believe they would have been thrashed in final any ways)

 

[Sachin136]

You are spouting rubbish..

Slogging off and scoring those quick runs in semi final is by no mean easy feat (even after considering one dropped catch). So he has performed in WC KO

He is never an upper order bat. His role is different

This is one case where SA were clearly robbed from the chance of winning match (although I firmly believe they would have been thrashed in final any ways)

AB has mostly played at #4. In that match he demoted himself to #5 for some reason.

Scoring quickly isn't easy by any means. But hiding behind other batsmen in a SF was disappointing to watch.

I think SA deserved to win too, but that's irrelevant.

 

[Chrish]

AB has mostly played at #4. In that match he demoted himself to #5 for some reason.

Scoring quickly isn't easy by any means. But hiding behind other batsmen in a SF was disappointing to watch.

I think SA deserved to win too, but that's irrelevant.

Don't try to put your opinions out there as fact. He batted at at 5 when he scored 77 against pakistan and 162 against west indies..

He has been successful in WC KO. Anyone who says otherwise has no clue.

 

[The_Odd_One]

Actually he is an ODI great.

ATG of ODI ? No. He just doesn't turn up well enough in World Cups in crucial games for South Africa to make it to WC semifinals or finals.

Compare that to Ponting, and ODI ATG , with Match winning performances in World Cups. Compare it to Bevan an ODI ATG, with amazing average coming at no 6. Compare that to MSD, an ODI ATG , with amazing ability to finish games.

What has AB Got ahead of all of them?

The only reason why he is ODI great, is because he has insane ability to turn games on their head with his hitting skills. But that's not enough. Your ODI batting should define something.

AB fails more often than not, to steer South Africa to wins in major World Tournaments.

An ODI great, but not an ODI ATG.

You must also check how many chances did Ponting get in World Cup knockouts and how many times he performed.

 

[AamchiMumbaikar]

For a non SA'an - In ODI, Yes. Test cricket, No.

 

[Buffet]

Waqar is seen as ATG in ODI despite doing nothing in WCs. AB hasn't even done bad in WC, but he shouldn't be called ATG in ODI because he didn't win semis or finals. Sounds weird to me.

If anything, stats of AB is far far better than equivalent stats of Waqar in ODI.

 

[Sidilicious]

A great point raised by [MENTION=97523]Buffet[/MENTION]. Quite a few (including me) rated Waqar as an ATG, but not ABDV, primarily because ABDV does not have a significant innings in WCs.

When rating players, we should be consistent with our yardsticks. Waqar has done nothing of note in WCs
1992 - Did not play; injured
1996 - Massacred by Jadeja. Was good in the group stages
1999 - Couldn't make it to XI in most matches
2003 - Couldn't lead the team to super sixes. Did nothing of note in the whole tourney.
So [MENTION=141114]Hasan123[/MENTION] [MENTION=131701]Mamoon[/MENTION] [MENTION=133760]Abdullah719[/MENTION] [MENTION=43242]Dr_Bassim[/MENTION], would you change your rating of either Waqar or ABDV?

Initially, I was hesitant on stating ADBV an ODI ATG. But I am confident that Waqar is an ODI ATG. Both have not done anything of note in WCs. In fact, I would argue that ABDV has done more than Waqar in WCs. So, I would categorise ABDV as an ODI ATG.

 

[Dark Magician]

In ODI cricket yes in Tests no but..... He's close, very close.

 

[Dr_Bassim]

Waqar is seen as ATG in ODI despite doing nothing in WCs. AB hasn't even done bad in WC, but he shouldn't be called ATG in ODI because he didn't win semis or finals. Sounds weird to me.

If anything, stats of AB is far far better than equivalent stats of Waqar in ODI.

I think if anything Waqar is considered an ATG not in just ODI's, but when you look at his cumulative career, and his peak SR.

No one calls Waqar an ATG in just ODI's.

The problem is AB de Villiers is not an ATG in Tests, and jury is still out on him to conclude that he is definitely an ATG in ODI.

Here's a thought.

Is Waqar Younis an ATG (not considering the format) ? Most people would answer yes.

Is AB De Villiers an ATG (not considering the format )? Most people would say maybe in ODI's and definitely not in Tests.

It's a contentious among people even now.

But for Waqar, a few odd here and there's , there is universal acclaim that he is ATG.

 

[Dr_Bassim]

You must also check how many chances did Ponting get in World Cup knockouts and how many times he performed.

Doesn't matter.

A winning captain of 2 consecutive World Cups.

Is Gilly an ATG?

Would you say no, because he averages 35 in ODI's and 50 odd in tests?

However, there is universal acceptance for Gilly as ATG.

Because he had defining innings.

AB de Villiers doesn't cut it for me, so far.

That could all change.

He still has time, but if it was all about averages and how well he performs when there is no pressure, or in bilaterals, then AB can be considered bonafide ATG.

I still haven't warmed up to him.

 

[Hasan123]

He has played 4 WC knockouts in those 11 years. He didn't bat in one. In another one, he was on his way towards batting New Zealand out of the game before a rain interruption.

I don't think the remaining failures in two matches should define his status as an ODI player.

If he plays a match-winning knock in a WC knockout game sometime later in his career, that will enhance his status.

But I think he has done enough to be recognised as one of the greatest ever ODI batsmen.

Lol there's always excuse for his failures

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

ATG ATG ATG.

Kohli didn't click in both WCs (overall) he played yet he is ATG too.

If they have to get to Viv, SRT and Ponting league, they have to do something great in WCs and Champions Trophy.

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

ABD has to come up the order.

I don't blame his WC 2015 SF knock at all but its about time he comes up the order cos he is no Bevan or Dhoni down the order when it comes to finishing.

 

[Protea Fan]

If he is not who else other than sachin,ponting,viv is an ATG?

He only lacks an international trophy to level the above mentioned greats,without that whatever he achieves he's below them but still a certified ATG in any yardsticks

Roger federer don't have an olympic gold,lionel messi yet to win an international trophy but still they were widely regard as ATG's so is with AB too

 

[Midwinter13992]

Cant call him ATG in tests...surely ATG in ODIs...average player in Int20s...
Overall we have to wait until his retirement. Generally most batsman pick their carriers at 30-35...But looking at his current form and fitness it is looking just too much for ABD..
Good luck

 

[samplepiece]

If he does not end up as an ATG, he would have massively under-achieved.

 

[SL_Fan]

In ODIs without a doubt he's right up there among the very best. In Tests tho both AB's and Amla's stocks have plummeted big time for mine. Had it easy all these years but now that the team needs them most one wants to jump ship and the other looks like he's struggling with the weight of expectations a la ICC tourneys. As far as being ATGs both have a lot left to prove for mine.

 

[Abdullah719]

Lol there's always excuse for his failures

That isn't a legitimate response.

 

[Abdullah719]

So [MENTION=141114]Hasan123[/MENTION] [MENTION=131701]Mamoon[/MENTION] [MENTION=133760]Abdullah719[/MENTION] [MENTION=43242]Dr_Bassim[/MENTION], would you change your rating of either Waqar or ABDV?

I think both did enough to be rated as ATGs while a match-winning performance in a World Cup knockout game would have enhanced their reputations.

 

[Buffet]

I think if anything Waqar is considered an ATG not in just ODI's, but when you look at his cumulative career, and his peak SR.

Let's see what exactly Waqar has done in his cumulative career.


In his long career he has done nothing in ODI if we go by WC.
After, 1994 he averaged 31+ against non-minnows covering period of 7-8 years.
So only thing Waqar has ever done in his career is 3-4 years in tests and that's about it, right?

If we are just going by WC then I don't see what exactly Waqat has done over his career on cumulative basis.

I rate Waqar as ATG based on his entire career though, but I don't have criterion like some of you are using here. No bowler or batsman will go down as an ATG for 3-4 years of performance. Waqar was a good bowler in ODI format and I take it with his test career to say that he was an ATG bowler. Otherwise, I will not rate Waqar as an ATG based on 25-30 international games(tests). That's a ridiculously low sample for anyone playing in 90s/00s.

 

[Buffet]

A great point raised by [MENTION=97523]Buffet[/MENTION]. Quite a few (including me) rated Waqar as an ATG, but not ABDV, primarily because ABDV does not have a significant innings in WCs.

When rating players, we should be consistent with our yardsticks. Waqar has done nothing of note in WCs
1992 - Did not play; injured
1996 - Massacred by Jadeja. Was good in the group stages
1999 - Couldn't make it to XI in most matches
2003 - Couldn't lead the team to super sixes. Did nothing of note in the whole tourney.
So [MENTION=141114]Hasan123[/MENTION] [MENTION=131701]Mamoon[/MENTION] [MENTION=133760]Abdullah719[/MENTION] [MENTION=43242]Dr_Bassim[/MENTION], would you change your rating of either Waqar or ABDV?

Initially, I was hesitant on stating ADBV an ODI ATG. But I am confident that Waqar is an ODI ATG. Both have not done anything of note in WCs. In fact, I would argue that ABDV has done more than Waqar in WCs. So, I would categorise ABDV as an ODI ATG.

In PP , often ATG in test and ATG in ODI is used. Will it be fair to say that Waqar was not an ATG in ODI format because he didn't do anything in WC? His performance in test has nothing to do with WC performance which seems to be criterion for ATG status in ODI format.

AB has performed better than Waqar in WC as well. We seems to be using a different criterion for different players.

 

[The_Odd_One]

Doesn't matter.

A winning captain of 2 consecutive World Cups.

Is Gilly an ATG?

Would you say no, because he averages 35 in ODI's and 50 odd in tests?

However, there is universal acceptance for Gilly as ATG.

Because he had defining innings.

AB de Villiers doesn't cut it for me, so far.

That could all change.

He still has time, but if it was all about averages and how well he performs when there is no pressure, or in bilaterals, then AB can be considered bonafide ATG.

I still haven't warmed up to him.

That is a flawed logic. Ponting has batted in 8 world cup semi-finals and finals. Guess what, he performed only once, that is 1/8. Devilliers has played just 2 semi-finals. The first time in 2007 he was a rookie. In 2015, he played an excellent inning but rain ruined everything.

I am sure nobody is saying that Ponting is not ATG. He is a bonafide ATG in both tests and ODIs. The same is true for Gilchrist.

Now coming back to AB:

1. He has the record for the fastest 50, 100, and 150.
2. He is the only batsman in the history of ODI cricket to have 50+ average at 100+ SR after playing over 200 ODIs.
3. He is not a minnow basher. Averages 59 vs Australia, 53 vs India, 62 vs Pakistan, 56 vs NZ, and 54 vs SL.
4. He is not a HTB either. Averages 52 at home, 60 away, and 47 in neutral venues
5. Averages 81 at 96 SR in successful chases.
6. Averages 63 in world cups.
7. Speaking of peaks, since 2009, he averages 67 at 106 SR. Which other batsman in the history of ODIs has such peak?
8. He has kept wickets in over 59 matches. Averages 77 as keeper.
9. He has carried SA batting in ODIs on his back. Averages 66 as captain.
10. He is the most complete and versatile batsman of his generation. Has no apparent weakness against any type of bowling.

 

[Abdullah719]

1. He has the record for the fastest 50, 100, and 150.
2. He is the only batsman in the history of ODI cricket to have 50+ average at 100+ SR after playing over 200 ODIs.
3. He is not a minnow basher. Averages 59 vs Australia, 53 vs India, 62 vs Pakistan, 56 vs NZ, and 54 vs SL.
4. He is not a HTB either. Averages 52 at home, 60 away, and 47 in neutral venues
5. Averages 81 at 96 SR in successful chases.
6. Averages 63 in world cups.
7. Speaking of peaks, since 2009, he averages 67 at 106 SR. Which other batsman in the history of ODIs has such peak?
8. He has kept wickets in over 59 matches. Averages 77 as keeper.
9. He has carried SA batting in ODIs on his back. Averages 66 as captain.
10. He is the most complete and versatile batsman of his generation. Has no apparent weakness against any type of bowling.

This is pretty much the base of the argument. When one has numbers that are so far ahead of his competitors then it's only logical that he be rated as one of the greats of the game.

 

[The_Odd_One]

Let's see what exactly Waqar has done in his cumulative career.


In his long career he has done nothing in ODI if we go by WC.
After, 1994 he averaged 31+ against non-minnows covering period of 7-8 years.
So only thing Waqar has ever done in his career is 3-4 years in tests and that's about it, right?

If we are just going by WC then I don't see what exactly Waqat has done over his career on cumulative basis.

I rate Waqar as ATG based on his entire career though, but I don't have criterion like some of you are using here. No bowler or batsman will go down as an ATG for 3-4 years of performance. Waqar was a good bowler in ODI format and I take it with his test career to say that he was an ATG bowler. Otherwise, I will not rate Waqar as an ATG based on 25-30 international games(tests). That's a ridiculously low sample for anyone playing in 90s/00s.

Waqar is an ATG just because he had a peak of like 5 years but AB is not an ATG despite having a peak of 7 years. You just listen to PPers.

Devilliers since 2009:
ODIs: averages 65@107 SR in 130 matches
Tests: averages 58 in 58 matches

Waqar between 1989 to 1994
ODIs: averages 21@4.3 ER in 102 matches
Tests: averages 19@36 SR in 33 matches

Devilliers ODIs peak is as good as Waqar's test peak but unlike Waqar, Devilliers has performed better in world cups and also against top teams of his time. Like Waqar's toe crushing yorkers, AB can also hit shots in all 360 degrees. Even aesthetically, AB the batsman is not inferior to Waqar the bowler.

How can someone who consider Waqar an ATG does not consider AB an ATG is beyond belief. It is just bias and nothing else.

 

[street cricketer]

Definite ATG in ODIs, his subpar record (by his standards) in world cups notwithstanding. Comfortably the biggest and cleanest hitter of the ball I've seen in world cricket. Once in a generation player.

South African great in test cricket.

 

[sajeebmcj]

Waqar is an ATG just because he had a peak of like 5 years but AB is not an ATG despite having a peak of 7 years. You just listen to PPers.

Devilliers since 2009:
ODIs: averages 65@107 SR in 130 matches
Tests: averages 58 in 58 matches

Waqar between 1989 to 1994
ODIs: averages 21@4.3 ER in 102 matches
Tests: averages 19@36 SR in 33 matches

Devilliers ODIs peak is as good as Waqar's test peak but unlike Waqar, Devilliers has performed better in world cups and also against top teams of his time. Like Waqar's toe crushing yorkers, AB can also hit shots in all 360 degrees. Even aesthetically, AB the batsman is not inferior to Waqar the bowler.

How can someone who consider Waqar an ATG does not consider AB an ATG is beyond belief. It is just bias and nothing else.

actually devilliers is a goat material in odi.

 

[Ozymandiasza]

I tried to convince [MENTION=131701]Mamoon[/MENTION] of the greatness of AB in his 200th ODI thread. I'll just paste some of it here since it's quite relevant:

What exactly is greatness? Sounds very subjective to me. Is it winning a WC? He tried his best and brought South Africa damn close, the closest we've ever been. Oh right, the greatness is in the "pressure situations", whatever that is. I'll rather lists some facts.

Here are some of AB's achievement in ODIs:

Fastest half-century in One day Internationals
Fastest century in One day Internationals
Fastest hundred and fifty in One day Internationals
Fastest player to reach 8000 runs in One Day Internationals
He holds the record for the most sixes in Cricket World Cup
He is the leading run scorer for South Africa in Cricket World Cup
He was part of the team in the 438 game, not a good innings from him, but he played
Only player in the world to have a 50+ average and a 100 strike rate
Hold the record for the highest batting average in a World Cups (min. 20 inns.)


Perhaps greatness is what your peers think of you?

Here's what other cricketers think of AB:

"I demand a DNA test of AB de Villiers. This game is only for humans" - Aakash Chopra

"AB de Villiers is changing the rules of the game" - Rahul Dravid

"Someone I've always watched and looked up to. He's an absolute class act & someone that I try to base my game on" - Glenn Maxwell on AB de Villiers

"AB de Villiers is the best batsman in the world by far. He shows it again and again" - Virat Kohli

"AB de Villiers is the definition of a cricketing genius" - Michael Vaughan

"de Villiers is the most complete player of the modern era" - VVS Laxman

"I have been saying for the past 30 years that Viv Richards has to be the batsman of all time but I am going to have to reassess that because this guy is something extraordinary" - Bob Willis on AB de Villiers

"AB de Villiers reminds me of my younger days. What a player!" - Chris Gayle (what a vain comment, heh)

"AB de Villiers is the most valuable cricketer on the planet" - Adam Gilchrist

"AB is like a mind-reading bloodhound. He can smell the emotions of the opposition and he predicts what they are going to do and how they will behave." - Dale Steyn

Sounds pretty "great" to me.

 

[Buffet]

Devilliers since 2009:
ODIs: averages 65@107 SR in 130 matches
Tests: averages 58 in 58 matches

Average of 58 in itself tells only half the story. He hasn't scored this average by doing well only at home or scoring mainly against poor bowling units. He has scored everywhere and against everyone. Apart from Amla , no one has been better than him in the last 6-7 years in the test format when it comes to doing it everywhere and against everyone.

I think AB had to score at avg of 70 for 7 years in test and avg of 100 in ODI to convince some folks. Some fans ignore his brilliant performance in the last 7-8 years and all peer appreciations, but nothing gets ignored when it comes to other players.

 

[Dead Ball]

ABDV is an ODI ATG in my opinion.

He has the most unreal numbers in the history of ODI batting (yes, IVA Richards included) and unlike other 'great' batsmen, is an absolute treat to watch. Obviously, his numbers are helped by the fact that he plays in arguably the worst era of bowling in ODI history, but i believe he would've done well in every era. He has performed in finals, WC's, home and away.

In tests however, i do not consider him a great of the game.

A couple of excellent knocks notwithstanding, he has padded his stats playing plenty of low pressure knocks. If you exclude minnows + WI he averages 47.5 and has scored just 6 tons away from home, yes 6!

I also strongly disagree that he has been the second best player to Amla over the last 6-7 years. He had his test peak between 2008-2013. Since 2014 ABDV averages 38.5 against non-minnows (top 6) with just one ton in his last 13 tests.

He has already played 106 tests, and apart from 2-3 flashes of brilliance, i havn't seen anything special from him. Nowhere close to a test ATG in my book, an ODI ATG without a doubt!

 

[The_Odd_One]

ABDV is an ODI ATG in my opinion.

He has the most unreal numbers in the history of ODI batting (yes, IVA Richards included) and unlike other 'great' batsmen, is an absolute treat to watch. Obviously, his numbers are helped by the fact that he plays in arguably the worst era of bowling in ODI history, but i believe he would've done well in every era. He has performed in finals, WC's, home and away.

In tests however, i do not consider him a great of the game.

A couple of excellent knocks notwithstanding, he has padded his stats playing plenty of low pressure knocks. If you exclude minnows + WI he averages 47.5 and has scored just 6 tons away from home, yes 6!

I also strongly disagree that he has been the second best player to Amla over the last 6-7 years. He had his test peak between 2008-2013. Since 2014 ABDV averages 38.5 against non-minnows (top 6) with just one ton in his last 13 tests.

He has already played 106 tests, and apart from 2-3 flashes of brilliance, i havn't seen anything special from him. Nowhere close to a test ATG in my book, an ODI ATG without a doubt!

6 centuries and 15 50s in just 38 matches. In 9 of those matches, he kept wickets too. It is not like he has played 100 tests outside home. 47 is still a very good average. Has a double century in India, a double century in the UAE, a couple of centuries in Australia, a century in England. How many batsmen have such a balanced record? AB's home has been SA which is one tough place to bat in tests. He should also get some bonus points for maintaining a good average at home.

He is not a top tier test batsman but he has done enough to be called an ATG because he is phenomenal in ODIs and good in tests.

 

[The_Odd_One]

I tried to convince [MENTION=131701]Mamoon[/MENTION] of the greatness of AB in his 200th ODI thread. I'll just paste some of it here since it's quite relevant:

What exactly is greatness? Sounds very subjective to me. Is it winning a WC? He tried his best and brought South Africa damn close, the closest we've ever been. Oh right, the greatness is in the "pressure situations", whatever that is. I'll rather lists some facts.

Here are some of AB's achievement in ODIs:

Fastest half-century in One day Internationals
Fastest century in One day Internationals
Fastest hundred and fifty in One day Internationals
Fastest player to reach 8000 runs in One Day Internationals
He holds the record for the most sixes in Cricket World Cup
He is the leading run scorer for South Africa in Cricket World Cup
He was part of the team in the 438 game, not a good innings from him, but he played
Only player in the world to have a 50+ average and a 100 strike rate
Hold the record for the highest batting average in a World Cups (min. 20 inns.)


Perhaps greatness is what your peers think of you?

Here's what other cricketers think of AB:

"I demand a DNA test of AB de Villiers. This game is only for humans" - Aakash Chopra

"AB de Villiers is changing the rules of the game" - Rahul Dravid

"Someone I've always watched and looked up to. He's an absolute class act & someone that I try to base my game on" - Glenn Maxwell on AB de Villiers

"AB de Villiers is the best batsman in the world by far. He shows it again and again" - Virat Kohli

"AB de Villiers is the definition of a cricketing genius" - Michael Vaughan

"de Villiers is the most complete player of the modern era" - VVS Laxman

"I have been saying for the past 30 years that Viv Richards has to be the batsman of all time but I am going to have to reassess that because this guy is something extraordinary" - Bob Willis on AB de Villiers

"AB de Villiers reminds me of my younger days. What a player!" - Chris Gayle (what a vain comment, heh)

"AB de Villiers is the most valuable cricketer on the planet" - Adam Gilchrist

"AB is like a mind-reading bloodhound. He can smell the emotions of the opposition and he predicts what they are going to do and how they will behave." - Dale Steyn

Sounds pretty "great" to me.

His also Babar Azam's role model.

 

[The_Odd_One]

Average of 58 in itself tells only half the story. He hasn't scored this average by doing well only at home or scoring mainly against poor bowling units. He has scored everywhere and against everyone. Apart from Amla , no one has been better than him in the last 6-7 years in the test format when it comes to doing it everywhere and against everyone.

I think AB had to score at avg of 70 for 7 years in test and avg of 100 in ODI to convince some folks. Some fans ignore his brilliant performance in the last 7-8 years and all peer appreciations, but nothing gets ignored when it comes to other players.

The thing with AB is that you just have to watch him bat. In 2015 WC match against Pakistan when everybody was struggling with bat, AB made batting look so easy that it was unbelievable. Skills wise I would say he is among the top 3 batsmen I have ever watched bat.

 

[Buffet]

In tests however, i do not consider him a great of the game.

A couple of excellent knocks notwithstanding, he has padded his stats playing plenty of low pressure knocks. If you exclude minnows + WI he averages 47.5 and has scored just 6 tons away from home, yes 6!

I also strongly disagree that he has been the second best player to Amla over the last 6-7 years.

AB averages 51.90 outside of SA against everyone excluding minnows and WI. If you exclude UAE from AB's record then it comes to 46. Anyway, away average of 46-47 is very good if we start picking most difficult 5-6 teams for any batsman.

Do you consider Sanga as great in Test?

If you exclude minnows + Pakistan , Sanga averages 46 and has scored just 8 ton away from home, yes 8! If you drop UAE them away average drops to 43.

I don't even consider AB as an ATG in test format, but away average of 47-48 is pretty good if you start picking the most difficult 5-6 teams for any batsman. I just gave one parallel example of batsman who is seen as an ATG in the test format in PP by most. It seems we don't keep the consistency here. First it was Waqar and now even in test we have examples.

If you don't consider Sanga as an great in Test, then ignore this post. But I was just trying to make a point here.

 

[The_Odd_One]

ABDV is an ODI ATG in my opinion.

He has the most unreal numbers in the history of ODI batting (yes, IVA Richards included) and unlike other 'great' batsmen, is an absolute treat to watch. Obviously, his numbers are helped by the fact that he plays in arguably the worst era of bowling in ODI history, but i believe he would've done well in every era. He has performed in finals, WC's, home and away.

In tests however, i do not consider him a great of the game.

A couple of excellent knocks notwithstanding, he has padded his stats playing plenty of low pressure knocks. If you exclude minnows + WI he averages 47.5 and has scored just 6 tons away from home, yes 6!

I also strongly disagree that he has been the second best player to Amla over the last 6-7 years. He had his test peak between 2008-2013. Since 2014 ABDV averages 38.5 against non-minnows (top 6) with just one ton in his last 13 tests.

He has already played 106 tests, and apart from 2-3 flashes of brilliance, i havn't seen anything special from him. Nowhere close to a test ATG in my book, an ODI ATG without a doubt!

Ponting averages 46 and Lara averages 48 away from home.

 

[Buffet]

6 centuries and 15 50s in just 38 matches.

AB crossed 50 , every other test.
AB scored a ton in every 6 test.
Sample size is away against chosen 5-6 teams with a combined average of 46-47.

How this record is cited for making a point against AB? Problem is , PPers don't apply the same benchmark for many other players.

 

[The_Odd_One]

Also, I do not understand why WI should be excluded from AB's test record. West Indies in West Indies has drawn series with Pakistan, England, and SL and have beaten England and NZ in last 10 years.

 

[The_Odd_One]

AB crossed 50 , every other test.
AB scored a ton in every 6 test.
Sample size is away against chosen 5-6 teams with a combined average of 46-47.

How this record is cited for making a point against AB? Problem is , PPers don't apply the same benchmark for many other players.

He has performed against all teams in their home grounds. If Pollock and Donald were not as good as Wasim and Waqar because they bowled mostly in SA then by same logic AB should be rated higher than other batsman who average 50 despite playing most of their test cricket on easier pitches.

 

[Buffet]

Ponting averages 46 and Lara averages 48 away from home.

Ponting average outside Aus is 42 if you exclude WI and minnows.

 

[Buffet]

He has performed against all teams in their home grounds. If Pollock and Donald were not as good as Wasim and Waqar because they bowled mostly in SA then by same logic AB should be rated higher than other batsman who average 50 despite playing most of their test cricket on easier pitches.

Don't take it wrong way. AB gets lots of stick from SA fans for not doing more in the test format. We expected more from him, but he has still done pretty well. Even in ODI , we criticize him for not taking more responsibility and throwing his wickets at wrong time. But if we are going to make a comparison then benchmark should be consistent.

For me, AB is an ATG in the ODI format and very good in the test format. I don't have issue with anyone rating players differently, but I have issue when different criterion gets applied for different players.

 

[The_Odd_One]

Don't take it wrong way. AB gets lots of stick from SA fans for not doing more in the test format. We expected more from him, but he has still done pretty well. Even in ODI , we criticize him for not taking more responsibility and throwing his wickets at wrong time. But if we are going to make a comparison then benchmark should be consistent.

For me, AB is an ATG in the ODI format and very good in the test format. I don't have issue with anyone rating players differently, but I have issue when different criterion gets applied for different players.

I know what you are saying and I am pretty sure nobody considers him a better test batsman than Kallis, Amla, and Smith, and may be even Kirsten in SA.

 

[Buffet]

He has performed against all teams in their home grounds. If Pollock and Donald were not as good as Wasim and Waqar because they bowled mostly in SA then by same logic AB should be rated higher than other batsman who average 50 despite playing most of their test cricket on easier pitches.

Yah, it's one of those things where PPers will say that batsmen now days have everything going for them so they should be rated lower than previous era batsmen having similar stats. At the same time , they will not give enough credit to Steyn for outperforming other bowlers by a wide margin in batting friendly era and maintaining a stat which is superior than most in history. You can't have your cake and eat it too, but that's the way it goes for some fans.

 

[Buffet]

I know what you are saying and I am pretty sure nobody considers him a better test batsman than Kallis, Amla, and Smith, and may be even Kirsten in SA.

I rate him lower than Kallis, Amla and Smith. Higher than Kirsten. Not going by stats here. Just the impression having watched all of them.

 

[The_Odd_One]

I rate him lower than Kallis, Amla and Smith. Higher than Kirsten. Not going by stats here. Just the impression having watched all of them.

I always found Kirsten a very tough cricketer. Not many would be brave enough to come out and bat again after Akhtar breaks your nose.

 

[Ab Fan]

Waqar is quite clearly a better test player than AB.Its a no-brainer. He is an ATG in both formats.

AB in tests isn't at ATG level. Not even close. I am not even convinced of Amla or Smith being a clear ATG in tests either.

De Villiers as an ODI ATG for sure. Just look at the difference in his numbers and others since 2010.

IMO, he is at Clarke/ Cook level in tests while in odis he is sneezing his way to the top 5 odi batters of all time.

 

[Mamoon]

Why not?

Highly rated by peers
Excellent in all conditions
Insane peak

A great point raised by [MENTION=97523]Buffet[/MENTION]. Quite a few (including me) rated Waqar as an ATG, but not ABDV, primarily because ABDV does not have a significant innings in WCs.

When rating players, we should be consistent with our yardsticks. Waqar has done nothing of note in WCs
1992 - Did not play; injured
1996 - Massacred by Jadeja. Was good in the group stages
1999 - Couldn't make it to XI in most matches
2003 - Couldn't lead the team to super sixes. Did nothing of note in the whole tourney.
So [MENTION=141114]Hasan123[/MENTION] [MENTION=131701]Mamoon[/MENTION] [MENTION=133760]Abdullah719[/MENTION] [MENTION=43242]Dr_Bassim[/MENTION], would you change your rating of either Waqar or ABDV?

Initially, I was hesitant on stating ADBV an ODI ATG. But I am confident that Waqar is an ODI ATG. Both have not done anything of note in WCs. In fact, I would argue that ABDV has done more than Waqar in WCs. So, I would categorise ABDV as an ODI ATG.

If we look at it objectively, a lot of factors go in his favor and as [MENTION=134334]Ozymandiasza[/MENTION] pointed out, he gets the same appreciation from other cricketers that some of the legends in the past did.

However, I do not get the ATG feeling with de Villiers. There is something missing in his game, his aura or perhaps his personality that I have seen in the ATG legendary cricketers.

The only SA players (who have debuted post millennium) whom I personally consider ATGs are Smith and Steyn. However, QdK and Rabada have the same aura about them.

For me personally, de Villiers and Amla fall short for various reasons and it is admittedly difficult to pinpoint them, especially in the former's case because the latter has a massive body of work of failing under pressure in ODIs.

 

[SLcric123]

If we look at it objectively, a lot of factors go in his favor and as [MENTION=134334]Ozymandiasza[/MENTION] pointed out, he gets the same appreciation from other cricketers that some of the legends in the past did.

However, I do not get the ATG feeling with de Villiers. There is something missing in his game, his aura or perhaps his personality that I have seen in the ATG legendary cricketers.

The only SA players (who have debuted post millennium) whom I personally consider ATGs are Smith and Steyn. However, QdK and Rabada have the same aura about them.

For me personally, de Villiers and Amla fall short for various reasons and it is admittedly difficult to pinpoint them, especially in the former's case because the latter has a massive body of work of failing under pressure in ODIs.

But in Odis, Smith isn't great either and Amla is as good as him in tests.

How is Smith an ATG but not either of Amla or De Villiers?

 

[SL_Fan]

Also, I do not understand why WI should be excluded from AB's test record. West Indies in West Indies has drawn series with Pakistan, England, and SL and have beaten England and NZ in last 10 years.

WI have been rubbish for the most part post Ambrose/Walsh. Since then against the top seven WI have averaged 43 overall with the ball - breaking that down further 38+ at home and 48 away/neutral. Those are minnowish numbers fair to say significantly poorer than the worst of the top seven in all aspects. A definite outlier.

 

[SL_Fan]

To be an ATG you need to be an ATG in Tests. That should be the starting point. At least in my book.

 

[street cricketer]

To be an ATG you need to be an ATG in Tests. That should be the starting point. At least in my book.

Bevan?