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Is Dale Steyn underrated in ODIs?

Ab Fan

Ab Fan

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Dale Steyn is regarded as one of the greatest test bowlers of all-time but do you think he deserves more respect for his LO exploits.

He has taken about 200 ODI wickets at AVG of 25.9 bowling in an era when a 45 test batting average of 1990s is equivalent to 55 average.

There is no disagreement to the idea that batting in LOs has gone much easier as resulted in far superior batting averages of modern era batters (S Smith averages same as Ponting in ODIs, for example).

But at the same time, we must also accept that bowling has gotten far tougher and an average of 25 is probably the new 20 in modern era because of the ODI matches played on flat roads, small boundaries, powerplay restrictions and two new bowl rule.

If I put Dale Steyn or Lasith Malinga in 1990s and early 00s era, it is most likely that both will be having averages of 22-23 odd like a Donald, Waqar or Ambrose had.

Hence, feel that Steyn and other modern era bowlers like Malinga, Morkel, Boult, Shami, Amir deserves a lot more respect as far as LOIs are concerned.

Discuss!
 
Ab Fan said:
Dale Steyn is regarded as one of the greatest test bowlers of all-time but do you think he deserves more respect for his LO exploits.

He has taken about 200 ODI wickets at AVG of 25.9 bowling in an era when a 45 test batting average of 1990s is equivalent to 55 average.

There is no disagreement to the idea that batting in LOs has gone much easier as resulted in far superior batting averages of modern era batters (S Smith averages same as Ponting in ODIs, for example).

But at the same time, we must also accept that bowling has gotten far tougher and an average of 25 is probably the new 20 in modern era because of the ODI matches played on flat roads, small boundaries, powerplay restrictions and two new bowl rule.

If I put Dale Steyn or Lasith Malinga in 1990s and early 00s era, it is most likely that both will be having averages of 22-23 odd like a Donald, Waqar or Ambrose had.

Hence, feel that Steyn and other modern era bowlers like Malinga, Morkel, Boult, Shami, Amir deserves a lot more respect as far as LOIs are concerned.

Discuss!
Click to expand...

I don't think I agree to your point entirely - due to big scores and some batsman going hell for leather bowlers can pick up cheap wickets specially if you are bowling at the death or first 10. Infact a lot of the wickets these days are due to the big shot attempted by the batsman so even though wickets are flatter its ofset by the fact bowlers are more likely to pick up cheap wickets. Also wickets for LOI cricket have always been on the flat side.
 
I think because his status in test cricket is undisputed as an ATG with no equal in his era, when it came to ODIs he was a bit underwhelming and seemed average. Or rather, he wasn't as spectacular as his test legend suggested. Still a great bowler who would probably walk into any team.
 
No. In fact for many years he was overrated based on test exploits. He was considered superior to Morne Morkel who imo was a better ODI bowler than Steyn. However, now I think he is properly rated.

A bowler who is definitely underrated in ODIs is James Anderson. England all time top wicket taker in the format and has among the max number of ODI wickets for a pacer.
 
He improved his stats by dominating a deplorable Pakistani lineup in 2013. Overall, he was nothing special.

Anderson was a better ODI bowler.
 
Mamoon said:
He improved his stats by dominating a deplorable Pakistani lineup in 2013. Overall, he was nothing special.

Anderson was a better ODI bowler.
Click to expand...

However, that Pakistan side managed to win 2-1 in SA, becoming the first ever Asian team to win an ODI series in SA.
 
While his bowling average appears good but it doesnt tell the complete picture. He was just a good/decent bowler in LOIs, nothing exceptional. He was not at all a complete white ball bowler in my opinion, while he was excellent with the new ball but really lacked variations of lengths as well as deliveries to create impact in the middle and at the death overs. His yorkers were also nothing to write home about.

He surprisingly performed well with average of 22 against Ind which was a top ODI side in the last decade or so but other than that his stats are influenced by performing against low ranked teams.

A good bowler to have but not anywhere near a great in white ball cricket.
 
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I think he gets underrated in t20's,he bowled really well in couple of Ipls and his economy was under 7 plus he had a great record in T20 worldcups.
 
Pakhs said:
I don't think I agree to your point entirely - due to big scores and some batsman going hell for leather bowlers can pick up cheap wickets specially if you are bowling at the death or first 10. Infact a lot of the wickets these days are due to the big shot attempted by the batsman so even though wickets are flatter its ofset by the fact bowlers are more likely to pick up cheap wickets. Also wickets for LOI cricket have always been on the flat side.
Click to expand...

You have missed one of my major point here. SRT, Ponting and Lara averaged in the 42-45 range and are considered ATG ODI batsmen but in modern era, a player can't be considered an ATG with an average of 45. Reason? Because of flat wickets, small boundaries, powerplay rules and two new bowl rule.

Do you think someone with stats like Anwar will be considered ATG in modern era? Also, wickets were not as flat back in 80s and 90s in ODIs as it has been over last 15 years because we can see how much batting averages have increased over the last 10 years.

There is no way we can say that Jayasuriya or Gibbs or Anwar would have same stats today as it was for them in that era.

Dale Steyn may have a few advantage but the era in which he bowled is a huge disadvantage as well.
 
Mamoon said:
He improved his stats by dominating a deplorable Pakistani lineup in 2013. Overall, he was nothing special.

Anderson was a better ODI bowler.
Click to expand...

Steyn stats will still remain better even if you exclude Pakistan.
 
What are Dale Steyns World Cup stats? I feel like he underperformed in World cups, but have no idea.
 
HappyWarsFan said:
What are Dale Steyns World Cup stats? I feel like he underperformed in World cups, but have no idea.
Click to expand...

Averages 23.39 in World Cup and was Player Of Match for his 5-50 Vs India in 2011 World Cup, the match which SA won.
 
Nope, he just never was that good in LOI.

Morkel was the real star of LOI for SA.
 
He was good in ODI's. Can only think of a couple of bowlers who were better than him in the format. Lol at Jimmy anderson being a better odi bowler. During Steyn's time , I wold only have taken Morne and a couple of Aussies ahead of him in ODIs. That's it.
 
Nikhil_cric said:
https://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/stats/index.html?bowling_pacespin=1;class=2;filter=advanced;orderby=bowling_average;qualmin1=100;qualval1=wickets;spanmax1=31+Mar+2019;spanmin1=23+Jun+2007;spanval1=span;template=results;type=bowling
Click to expand...

That's pretty much Steyn's career. You can clearly see that there is not much to choose between bowlers from #2 to #6 - the differences are quite marginal. Starc is the real outlier in that list. His average is unbelievably good especially considering he played most of his cricket post 2 new ball rule but he's probably the GOAT in the format.
 
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Nikhil_cric said:
That's pretty much Steyn's career. You can clearly see that there is not much to choose between bowlers from #2 to #6 - the differences are quite marginal. Starc is the real outlier in that list. His average is unbelievably good especially considering he played most of his cricket post 2 new ball rule but he's probably the GOAT in the format.
Click to expand...

Spot on brother.

These stats clearly specify that average of 25(SR 4.75) is the new 22(SR 4) for fast bowlers in modern era ODIs just like 45(SR 90) became a 55(SR 100) for batsmen.

Starc is in a league of his own, a GOAT and a tier below but still in ATG leagues are Steyn, Morkel, Boult and Shami. I am convinced that if these bowlers would have played in 90s, they would also have averaged 21-23 range like Donald, Ambrose or Waqar did.
 
Ab Fan said:
Spot on brother.

These stats clearly specify that average of 25(SR 4.75) is the new 22(SR 4) for fast bowlers in modern era ODIs just like 45(SR 90) became a 55(SR 100) for batsmen.

Starc is in a league of his own, a GOAT and a tier below but still in ATG leagues are Steyn, Morkel, Boult and Shami. I am convinced that if these bowlers would have played in 90s, they would also have averaged 21-23 range like Donald, Ambrose or Waqar did.
Click to expand...

I'd add Johnson in that 2nd list too. Top ODI bowler. Again very underrated considering his brilliant numbers in this format. Just goes to show how nobody really takes ODI's seriously anymore. In the 90's and early noughties, this wasn't the case. You pretty much knew who the top bowlers were
 
[MENTION=139595]Ab Fan[/MENTION]

Would you say that Starc is the GOAT. If he take 3 runs off Starc's average like you do with Steyn he averages sub 20. This, coupled with the GOAT WC record should make him the best of all time right?
 
tyron_woodley said:
best ever test bowler. yes better than mcgrath. get over it.

not a great odi bowler but still good.
Click to expand...
Steyn averages 30 or greater in 3 countries while McGrath does so in only 1.

And that one is Pakistan, where I’m sure you can find videos on YouTube that shows he got extremely flat pitches and biased umpires to deal with.

McGrath has a better ER (.75) and Steyn the better strike rate. But McGrath also played with Warne and Gillespie, so he had to compete a lot harder than Steyn to pick up wickets.

Steyn had Morkel and later Philander but the first was good but not great while he didn’t play much with the latter.
 
therealAB said:
[MENTION=139595]Ab Fan[/MENTION]

Would you say that Starc is the GOAT. If he take 3 runs off Starc's average like you do with Steyn he averages sub 20. This, coupled with the GOAT WC record should make him the best of all time right?
Click to expand...

Yes, that is only what I claimed.

Look, for batsmen, 55 is the new 45, in a same way there has to be some leeway for bowlers also.

It's quite clear that a total of 270 in 90s is equivalent to 300+ in modern era. There is no one in the league of Starc in the last 15 years, then about five bowlers are averaging in 24-26 range.

The only argument against Starc is longevity, we saw how Malinga's stats got hurt as he continued playing post injury. So, longevity is important but then nobody really cares much about ODIs.
 
mcgrath can never rip through a GOAT level batting lineup like steyn did vs india and even austr australia away from home.
 
Steyn wasn’t a better Test bowler than McGrath. That’s nonsense.

Steyn is undoubtedly one of the best Test bowlers ever, but some people end up overrating him.
 
Mamoon said:
Steyn wasn’t a better Test bowler than McGrath. That’s nonsense.

Steyn is undoubtedly one of the best Test bowlers ever, but some people end up overrating him.
Click to expand...

What about ODIs? Don't you think he would have averaged 22-23 if played in 80s and 90s when batting wasn't as easy and 250-260 were considered good total?
 
Ab Fan said:
What about ODIs? Don't you think he would have averaged 22-23 if played in 80s and 90s when batting wasn't as easy and 250-260 were considered good total?
Click to expand...

You should only be judged by how you play in your era. Steyn was never among the top ODI bowlers of his time.
 
Last Monetarist said:
One of the weirdest things on this forum is how overrated Dale Steyn is.
Click to expand...

I agree.

The myth that he is the GOAT Test bowler has been forced down our throats by numerous posters.

If you wouldn’t have been on PP, this idea that he is the GOAT Test bowler would have never crossed your mind.
 
Mamoon said:
I agree.

The myth that he is the GOAT Test bowler has been forced down our throats by numerous posters.

If you wouldn’t have been on PP, this idea that he is the GOAT Test bowler would have never crossed your mind.
Click to expand...

Even you know who overrates him :srt
 
Ab Fan said:
You have missed one of my major point here. SRT, Ponting and Lara averaged in the 42-45 range and are considered ATG ODI batsmen but in modern era, a player can't be considered an ATG with an average of 45. Reason? Because of flat wickets, small boundaries, powerplay rules and two new bowl rule.

Do you think someone with stats like Anwar will be considered ATG in modern era? Also, wickets were not as flat back in 80s and 90s in ODIs as it has been over last 15 years because we can see how much batting averages have increased over the last 10 years.

There is no way we can say that Jayasuriya or Gibbs or Anwar would have same stats today as it was for them in that era.

Dale Steyn may have a few advantage but the era in which he bowled is a huge disadvantage as well.
Click to expand...

Modern day batsmen are better hitter of the ball and due to the specific practice and longer batting line ups can sustain it longer. Where batsmen of the past had dual roles to take it deep and maintain a healthy run rate according to those times. The past players you mentioned where legends because they were ahead of their times and had good averages plus relatively high strike rate as compared to norm during those times. But current players with more knowledge and better training / practice are doing better.
 
Mamoon said:
Steyn wasn’t a better Test bowler than McGrath. That’s nonsense.

Steyn is undoubtedly one of the best Test bowlers ever, but some people end up overrating him.
Click to expand...

steyn was indeed a better test bowler. mcgrath can never rip through am ATG batting lineup on a flat track like steyn with his deadly reverse swing.
 
Arguments like Steyn is the most overrated bowler becomes pointless unless it is backed by some valid points. You can't just come up and say he is overrated otherwise the discussion can't really be proceeded.

Steyn's stats are there to be seen, he has 200 ODI wickets at AVG of almost 25. He won a World Cup match vs India taking a fi-fer in 2011 WC Vs ATG batting lineup.

Starc is probably a GOAT, Boult maybe better as well but Steyn is comfortably among the top 5 ODI bowlers of his era and that makes him a great ODI bowler.

The definition of average ODI bowler are the ones who are averaging over 30 and clearly not Steyn.
 
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Ab Fan said:
Arguments like Steyn is the most overrated bowler becomes pointless unless it is backed by some valid points. You can't just come up and say he is overrated otherwise the discussion can't really be proceeded.

Steyn's stats are there to be seen, he has 200 ODI wickets at AVG of almost 25. He won a World Cup match vs India taking a fi-fer in 2011 WC Vs ATG batting lineup.

Starc is probably a GOAT, Boult maybe better as well but Steyn is comfortably among the top 5 ODI bowlers of his era and that makes him a great ODI bowler.

The definition of average ODI bowler are the ones who are averaging over 30 and clearly not Steyn.
Click to expand...

It is indisputable that Steyn is the greatest bowler of his generation, but his record compared with other ATG bowlers such as Marshall, Hadlee, McGrath, Lillee, Ambrose, Donald et al isn't so significantly better that he should be anointed as the best of all time. The way people go on about him on this forum is somewhat at odds with how his legacy is perceived in the wider cricket world.

In terms of his limited overs record, Steyn didn't pick enough wickets to be considered an ATG. His ultimate impact wasn't even comparable with bowlers such as Shoaib Akhtar.
 
First of all the assumption that 55 average in this era equates to 45 in 90s is wrong.
Anybody who believes that Robin Smith(avg 44) is as good a batsman as virat kohli (avg54) should get his eye tested.
Now there are many such examples just think of them in your head and you will realise that you didn't think through before writing that post.

Secondly Steyn is not an odi great simply because he didn't play much and hardly has any memorable performances.
Morne Morkel was a better odi bowler.
 
tyron_woodley said:
steyn was indeed a better test bowler. mcgrath can never rip through am ATG batting lineup on a flat track like steyn with his deadly reverse swing.
Click to expand...

During Steyn’s peak, there were 4 best batting lineups (in no particular order): South Africa, Australia, India and England.

Steyn didn’t face South African batsmen, and he was nothing special against England and Australia. He was great against India though, but that isn’t enough to consider him better than McGrath.
 
jeeteshssaxena said:
First of all the assumption that 55 average in this era equates to 45 in 90s is wrong.
Anybody who believes that Robin Smith(avg 44) is as good a batsman as virat kohli (avg54) should get his eye tested.
Now there are many such examples just think of them in your head and you will realise that you didn't think through before writing that post.

Secondly Steyn is not an odi great simply because he didn't play much and hardly has any memorable performances.
Morne Morkel was a better odi bowler.
Click to expand...

Replace kohli with Joe root and I am sure any logical English fan will pick root over Robin .Root averages 48 to Robin Smith's 44.
So that 45 to 55 comparison is just silly.
 
jeeteshssaxena said:
First of all the assumption that 55 average in this era equates to 45 in 90s is wrong.
Anybody who believes that Robin Smith(avg 44) is as good a batsman as virat kohli (avg54) should get his eye tested.
Now there are many such examples just think of them in your head and you will realise that you didn't think through before writing that post.

Secondly Steyn is not an odi great simply because he didn't play much and hardly has any memorable performances.
Morne Morkel was a better odi bowler.
Click to expand...

That average synonym is for ODIs. The thread is about ODIs. Robin Smith averaged 39 at strike rate of 69.

An example for a fair reflection of 44 to 54 would be Tendulkar to Kohli or in terms of consistency, Kallis 44 to de Villiers 54(and AB and Steyn career literally coincided). de Villiers is considered better than Kallis because of Strike rate, in terms of consistency they are same. S Smith to Ponting is another example.

As for not playing much in ODIs, he still has got more ODI wickets than Morkel at same stats. As I said, even considering Morkel, Steyn is among the top 5 ODI bowlers of his era.
 
Last Monetarist said:
It is indisputable that Steyn is the greatest bowler of his generation, but his record compared with other ATG bowlers such as Marshall, Hadlee, McGrath, Lillee, Ambrose, Donald et al isn't so significantly better that he should be anointed as the best of all time. The way people go on about him on this forum is somewhat at odds with how his legacy is perceived in the wider cricket world.

In terms of his limited overs record, Steyn didn't pick enough wickets to be considered an ATG. His ultimate impact wasn't even comparable with bowlers such as Shoaib Akhtar.
Click to expand...

This thread is about ODIs. In tests, he is in same league as Marshall, Hadlee, McGrath, Lillee and Ambrose as you said and that is in itself a legendary feat.

But even in ODIs, he is clearly among top 5 bowlers of his era. Shoaib is certainly a country great in ODIs.
 
Ab Fan said:
That average synonym is for ODIs. The thread is about ODIs. Robin Smith averaged 39 at strike rate of 69.

An example for a fair reflection of 44 to 54 would be Tendulkar to Kohli or in terms of consistency, Kallis 44 to de Villiers 54(and AB and Steyn career literally coincided). de Villiers is considered better than Kallis because of Strike rate, in terms of consistency they are same. S Smith to Ponting is another example.

As for not playing much in ODIs, he still has got more ODI wickets than Morkel at same stats. As I said, even considering Morkel, Steyn is among the top 5 ODI bowlers of his era.
Click to expand...
Bro just check the 2nd para of your Opening post.You wrote test average....
 
Steyn is not an ATG in ODI format, but surely underrated due to his too high stature in the test format and not really being in the same class in ODI format.

Steyn was still a very good bowler in ODI format. Anything thinking that Steyn is overrated in pakpassion,

waqar_steyn.jpg
 
jeeteshssaxena said:
Replace kohli with Joe root and I am sure any logical English fan will pick root over Robin .Root averages 48 to Robin Smith's 44.
So that 45 to 55 comparison is just silly.
Click to expand...

Coming back to thread, as most would agree that 55 is the new 45 of batting in ODIs, don't you think 25 should be the new 20 or 22 of bowling in ODIs as well?

That will certainly put Steyn and Morkel both in the great ODI tier as well, putting arguments that Steyn was an average ODI bowler to rest.
 
Here is Akhtar, who has not spend any time in top 5 rank.

akhtar.jpg
 
Ab Fan said:
Coming back to thread, as most would agree that 55 is the new 45 of batting in ODIs, don't you think 25 should be the new 20 or 22 of bowling in ODIs as well?

That will certainly put Steyn and Morkel both in the great ODI tier as well, putting arguments that Steyn was an average ODI bowler to rest.
Click to expand...

It's hard to compare bowlers based on average in different eras. You can surely try to normalize it based on changing avg and all that, but ER is far too important in ODI format.

I will rather see how long bowlers spent time in the top 5 or the top 10 in their era. Won't be perfect, but it will capture the objective trend of players. It takes account of ER and avg both and also how you did when compared to your peers in every match. Also, the opposition was strong or weak.

If anyone claims that Steyn was an average bowler in ODI then it means bowlers who spent the majority of his career outside the top 10 ranks in any era should be considered poor.
 
Ab Fan said:
Coming back to thread, as most would agree that 55 is the new 45 of batting in ODIs, don't you think 25 should be the new 20 or 22 of bowling in ODIs as well?

That will certainly put Steyn and Morkel both in the great ODI tier as well, putting arguments that Steyn was an average ODI bowler to rest.
Click to expand...
Completely agree with you on this.
An odi bowling average of 25 combined with a str rate below 5 are atg stats but..you need to have memorable performances and a certain amount of wickets under your belt to be called an atg.
Steyn was obviously good in ODIs but for me he is behind malinga even though the former has better stats.
As for odi bowlers of his era ,the following were surely better than him:
1.Starc
2.Malinga
3.Mitchell Johnson
4.Trent Boult
5.Morne Morkel.
 
In the test format, Steyn is among the top 5 bowlers for me. In ODI format, a very good bowler, but not really an ATG.

If Starc maintains his record for long, then he will be go down as the best ODI bowler in history for me, but he has to do it for a much longer time. Untill, then Wasim is the best ODI bowler for me.
 
Buffet said:
It's hard to compare bowlers based on average in different eras. You can surely try to normalize it based on changing avg and all that, but ER is far too important in ODI format.

I will rather see how long bowlers spent time in the top 5 or the top 10 in their era. Won't be perfect, but it will capture the objective trend of players. It takes account of ER and avg both and also how you did when compared to your peers in every match. Also, the opposition was strong or weak.

If anyone claims that Steyn was an average bowler in ODI then it means bowlers who spent the majority of his career outside the top 10 ranks in any era should be considered poor.
Click to expand...

Yeah, economy always plays an important part in ODIs and that is why someone like Bumrah is phenomenal for me with an economy of 4.5 in modern era. Of course, comparing based on plain averages across era is pointless but it does gives an idea to an extent on a general perspective.

On a fair note, I will only put Starc, Malinga and Boult ahead of Steyn from his era in ODIs while Johnson and Morkel are pretty much the same tier. Rest are all behind.
 
Mamoon said:
During Steyn’s peak, there were 4 best batting lineups (in no particular order): South Africa, Australia, India and England.

Steyn didn’t face South African batsmen, and he was nothing special against England and Australia. He was great against India though, but that isn’t enough to consider him better than McGrath.
Click to expand...

Ask Australian batsmen of his era if he was special or not and you will get your answer... Warner, Clarke, Hussey.
 
Mamoon said:
During Steyn’s peak, there were 4 best batting lineups (in no particular order): South Africa, Australia, India and England.

Steyn didn’t face South African batsmen, and he was nothing special against England and Australia. He was great against India though, but that isn’t enough to consider him better than McGrath.
Click to expand...

Yet he won back to back test series in 2008 and 2012 in both the countries? The Australian pitches were roads during Steyn era unlike the McGrath era.
 
Mamoon said:
During Steyn’s peak, there were 4 best batting lineups (in no particular order): South Africa, Australia, India and England.

Steyn didn’t face South African batsmen, and he was nothing special against England and Australia. He was great against India though, but that isn’t enough to consider him better than McGrath.
Click to expand...

he ripped through australia several times he helped south africa win 3 series vs australia. He also won 2 away from home albeit saffers somehow managed to bottle it at their own home. That's why I can never rate the great saffers team of late 2000 to 2015 as one a top 3 all time great side. They struggled at home vs top teams even though they won away.

mcgrath dint face his own batsmen either ? mcgrath never faced Waugh, ponting, Hayden, langer, Martin etc. It works both ways.

dint saffers win in England away from home with steyn? I am pretty sure they did?

either way no one fears mcgrath but they will fear steyn in form. At their absolutely peaks, steyn in my opinion is the better bowler. In terms of longevity, mcgrath is better.

Sustained peak ability would favour mcgrath as he barely missed games.
 
jeeteshssaxena said:
Completely agree with you on this.
An odi bowling average of 25 combined with a str rate below 5 are atg stats but..you need to have memorable performances and a certain amount of wickets under your belt to be called an atg.
Steyn was obviously good in ODIs but for me he is behind malinga even though the former has better stats.
As for odi bowlers of his era ,the following were surely better than him:
1.Starc
2.Malinga
3.Mitchell Johnson
4.Trent Boult
5.Morne Morkel.
Click to expand...
rofl at Johnson kalimga and boult over bumrah and shami.

*** have any of this bowlers done or achieved in sub continent? nothing.
 
tyron_woodley said:
rofl at Johnson kalimga and boult over bumrah and shami.

*** have any of this bowlers done or achieved in sub continent? nothing.
Click to expand...
I don't count bumrah among his contemporaries.
Shami is prone to getting hit,a bowling economy of 5.6 is just too High .
 
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