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Is Faheem Ashraf good enough to be a third pacer in limited overs internationals?

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Fahim's bowling average reads 29.50 in ODIs. That's a bit better than both Raees and Junaid since their comebacks who both average slightly over 30.

Fahim doesn't have a classically flashy action for a fast bowler, but he does hurry up the batsman quite a bit and is surprisingly fast. And of course he is primarily a fast bowler in domestic.

A big issue to why we don't perform consistently is our batting. With Fahim as 3rd pacer, we could potentially include another batsman and bat down to 9 (i.e. Shadab). Which would make our batting strength greater and ensure our batting doesn't stall when the latter batsmen come in.

What's more the batsmen up top will have more freedom to play their strokes with a longer batting line up, less prone to collapses, and better batting tail for the batsmen up top to play with.

I don't really believe you can consistently challenge at the top without a decent line up that can hit 300 or so regularly, and if we degrade our bowling slightly to do it, I'd take it. I don't think Fahim is a massive downgrade bowling wise (or indeed if even one) on Junaid or Raees, and we have Malik, Haris (and potentially Amin) to serve as part timers.

Thoughts?
 
He can be slightly wayward from time to time. I don’t think he’s ready yet.

Ideally he should just bowl from overs 10-40 and keep things tight to build pressure from one end and allow Hasan/Shadab to strike.
 
No shouldn't be a top 6 bowling option except if the ball is swinging and seaming. Needs to bat at 6 as a pure hitter but perhaps one day he can be that all rounder - not yet.
 
Raees is an excellent bowler, he's only played a handful of matches, doesn't justify saying that Faheem is better over him.
 
Can't bowl 10 overs consistently, so use him as an extra one. His batting is a huge advantage and we need him in our squad. OR

Sohail Akhtar can be a good choice.
 
For now let him play as a 4th seamer. Once he starts to develop, in Asia we can play him as a 3rd seamer and include another spinner.
 
why would you play him as a third seamer? when you have got the likes of hasan,amir and Rumman/junaid.Both hassan and amir can bat and having junaid/rumman at 11 shouldn't affect the depth of batting much but if we drop a seamer then the balance of our bowling attack gets affected(which thrives because of wicket taking bowlers and if they are one bowler short then probably others can become wayward while trying hard).

PS:He is a work in progress and not good enough to be the 3rd seamer atm atleast in this Pakistani bowling lineup.Having more bowlers also gives a relief to sarfaraz and he does not have to worry about liabilities in the bowling department which allows him to attack the opposition
 
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CricFan2012 said:
Raees is an excellent bowler, he's only played a handful of matches, doesn't justify saying that Faheem is better over him.
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Agreed, I think Rumman can be a top bowler and has a much higher ceiling than Junaid
 
He's showcasing steady improvement. Very good today against NZ. Decent pace in his latter spell too.

fa.jpg
 
He bowls 140, and he should be there throughout. Only the best, greatest all rounders can bowl genuine heat and bat like a top order player
 
No I do not think he is. But he is handy with the bat which makes him a useful player in ODI cricket. He really needs to get at least 20% better with both bat and ball.
 
He is good and must be persisted with. Pakistan should look for a decent spinner instead of a seamer. May be one among Raza Hasan, Mohammed Asgar, Zafar Gowhar, Hasan Khan or any Off spinner.
 
He bowls at a good pace and gets decent bounce. But at times to me it seems like the batsman try to get under him and take him on as he often bowls a predictable length.
 
I don’t see anything special in his bowling. He is short, has an ugly action, doesn’t move the ball an inch and cranks it up to 140 at best. His bowling reminds me of Bhatti with more control but less pace.

On average, he mostly trundles in the 130s.

He is no Sohail Tanvir or Anwar Ali, but it will not be hard for Pakistan to produce a more refined bowler than him.

As long as he is a passenger with the bat, he is not going to add much to the team. Most of the hype surrounding him has been borne out of desperation. The desperation to produce a pace bowling all-rounder who is not rubbish.
 
Mamoon said:
I don’t see anything special in his bowling. He is short, has an ugly action, doesn’t move the ball an inch and cranks it up to 140 at best. His bowling reminds me of Bhatti with more control but less pace.

On average, he mostly trundles in the 130s.

He is no Sohail Tanvir or Anwar Ali, but it will not be hard for Pakistan to produce a more refined bowler than him.

As long as he is a passenger with the bat, he is not going to add much to the team. Most of the hype surrounding him has been borne out of desperation. The desperation to produce a pace bowling all-rounder who is not rubbish.
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He was seaming the ball in the ODIs and has been generating extra bounce today. Has been bowling at a very good length as well. Even the NZ commentators were saying they have been impressed by his bowling throughout.

Bhatti is several inches shorter so not really a worthy comparison.
 
A lot of the nz commies have been impressed.
So have I. Hits that hard length at good speeds.
At the moment it's not too much about output, he needs to be given time.
Like England did with Roy and hales.
Would keep him as the 4the seamer and let him bed in
 
Abdullah719 said:
He was seaming the ball in the ODIs and has been generating extra bounce today. Has been bowling at a very good length as well. Even the NZ commentators were saying they have been impressed by his bowling throughout.

Bhatti is several inches shorter so not really a worthy comparison.
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To me he is the guy on whom we should invest on . He needs to improve his batting like his bowling.
 
Abdullah said:
A lot of the nz commies have been impressed.
So have I. Hits that hard length at good speeds.
At the moment it's not too much about output, he needs to be given time.
Like England did with Roy and hales.
Would keep him as the 4the seamer and let him bed in
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[MENTION=131701]Mamoon[/MENTION] has not impressed,but by the way we dont have good options even in bowling,that why thundler like Ruman is there,
 
DRsohail said:
[MENTION=131701]Mamoon[/MENTION] has not impressed,but by the way we dont have good options even in bowling,that why thundler like Ruman is there,
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Rumman's best format is T20, he's been one of the best pacers of PSL.

We don't have Prime Umar Gul's sitting on the bench for T20s.:ashwin
 
To answer the OP's question, no not by a long shot. He's a good option to have as a 4th bowler in the limited overs game but nowhere near good enough to be a 3rd seamer. The thing with Fahim is that he's in the team primarily as a batsman who can provide the much required hitting prowess that Pakistan needs. His bowling is a bonus. If he cannot deliver on the batting front, his bowling isn't good enough to help Pakistan. Yes he would pick up crucial wickets here and other on the odd occasion but he won't be consistent.

However having said that, we really need to give Fahim an extended run in the team irrespective of his performances and develop him. He has the talent and the hunger to improve and that's what we should be banking on.
 
He is good enough to be a 2nd pacer if Hasan Ali continues to bowl poorly. Probably one of the bowlers who comes to execute the plans and does'nt have an ego. He was a 4th option but main strike bowlers underbowling he showed more class and continued to bowl on plan. He needs to work more on his line and seam/swing. His real strength is his hitting abilities down the order but he is in the team as a 3rd/4th bowling option.
 
He’s ok for T20’s as a change up seamer but shouldn’t bowl in Odi’s. really really novice bowler
 
Abid Z said:
He’s ok for T20’s as a change up seamer but shouldn’t bowl in Odi’s. really really novice bowler
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Shouldn't bowl in ODIs? He was practically our best bowler in the ODI series...

The New Zealand commentators have repeatedly praised Faheem's bowling throughout the tour but here we have posters comparing him to Bilawal Bhatti and saying he shouldn't bowl.
 
DRsohail said:
[MENTION=131701]Mamoon[/MENTION] has not impressed,but by the way we dont have good options even in bowling,that why thundler like Ruman is there,
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I wouldn't worry about mamoons impressions. He is a bit slow on the uptake sometimes.
Nobody is looking for world class performances from day 1. We just want to see potential and desire in the initial stages, and I like what I see
 
Abid Z said:
He’s ok for T20’s as a change up seamer but shouldn’t bowl in Odi’s. really really novice bowler
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Hehehe how people come with such absurd and hilarious statements. This novice bowler was on his first tour to NZ as a th option and took more wickets than your 3 main strike bowlers, 2 opening spell bowlers and spinner Shadab. And only bowler on this tour who consistently bowled full 10 overs
Faheem took 5 wickets with econ. rate of 39.80 which is only 2nd to Hasan Ali who took 6 wickets for rate of 33.80, a much high rate than what he has bowled this year.
 
One thing is for sure he wipes the floor with Pandya in the bowling department
 
Mamoon said:
I don’t see anything special in his bowling. He is short, has an ugly action, doesn’t move the ball an inch and cranks it up to 140 at best. His bowling reminds me of Bhatti with more control but less pace.

On average, he mostly trundles in the 130s.

He is no Sohail Tanvir or Anwar Ali, but it will not be hard for Pakistan to produce a more refined bowler than him.

As long as he is a passenger with the bat, he is not going to add much to the team. Most of the hype surrounding him has been borne out of desperation. The desperation to produce a pace bowling all-rounder who is not rubbish.
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Bhatti could hit deadly pinpoint yorkers at 140 consistently when he started out, before losing it all in space of a year.
 
He could be the third pacer in t20is especially in sub continent. In ODI's, you need two pacers who can swing or seam the new bowl consistently. Amir, Junaid and Sohail Khan are at the moment the best exponents for that regardless of form and age. With Hasan as the third seamer, who is not a natural opening bowler, Fahim can only be the 4th seamer at the moment which he is doing efficiently.
Although in t20is, you can have him opening the bowling in certain conditions.
He is a good prospect, an upgrade over Anwar Ali and Sohail Tanvir. Let's hope he keeps improving although his bowling action is very uncomfortable to watch.
 
Syed1 said:
One thing is for sure he wipes the floor with Pandya in the bowling department
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He is ahead of Panyda bowling wise by a sizable margin, but Pandya is a gaping wide chasm ahead in terms of batting.
 
It’s ok. [MENTION=131701]Mamoon[/MENTION] thinks Rumman is better than Junaid :)))
 
babajee said:
It’s ok. [MENTION=131701]Mamoon[/MENTION] thinks Rumman is better than Junaid :)))
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Junaid is a captain’s nightmare. Raees has a good brain.

I would have him over Junaid as my third seamer for now, but I am interested in S. S. Afridi.
 
BunnyRabbit said:
Bhatti could hit deadly pinpoint yorkers at 140 consistently when he started out, before losing it all in space of a year.
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Bhatti was good on his day. He was sharp and nippy, but he was too short and didn’t have any skills.
 
Abdullah719 said:
Shouldn't bowl in ODIs? He was practically our best bowler in the ODI series...

The New Zealand commentators have repeatedly praised Faheem's bowling throughout the tour but here we have posters comparing him to Bilawal Bhatti and saying he shouldn't bowl.
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ok firstly, I dont like comparing bowlers too much. I dont know much about Bhatti but i seem to remember a few good performances. I would say at the outset that given his height you could easily remove him from half the surfaces around the world where he would just be sitting up to be hit. so he always was a short term gap.

Returning to Faheem, im happy for this guy to do well. We need a seaming allrounder and I hope he fits the bill. I know he picked up wickets (on occassion so does wahab) and i know he can touch 140 kph ( so can wahab) but like wahab who is one of the worst bowlers to represent Pakistan, I have my doubts about Faheem.

My concern is that his grip is awful and so is his delivery stride, collapsing at the point of release. Infact he looks all over the place at the crease. I hope im wrong and he does well despite his action. I know he has had some fortune in Newzealand with late order wickets and thats great for him. But he is not a good long term solution.

obviously he looks good for T20 cricket so I hope he gets lots of exposure there and maybe in time he will become experienced and effective but right now he is the weakest link in the seam bowling dept.
 
Abid Z said:
ok firstly, I dont like comparing bowlers too much. I dont know much about Bhatti but i seem to remember a few good performances. I would say at the outset that given his height you could easily remove him from half the surfaces around the world where he would just be sitting up to be hit. so he always was a short term gap.

Returning to Faheem, im happy for this guy to do well. We need a seaming allrounder and I hope he fits the bill. I know he picked up wickets (on occassion so does wahab) and i know he can touch 140 kph ( so can wahab) but like wahab who is one of the worst bowlers to represent Pakistan, I have my doubts about Faheem.

My concern is that his grip is awful and so is his delivery stride, collapsing at the point of release. Infact he looks all over the place at the crease. I hope im wrong and he does well despite his action. I know he has had some fortune in Newzealand with late order wickets and thats great for him. But he is not a good long term solution.

obviously he looks good for T20 cricket so I hope he gets lots of exposure there and maybe in time he will become experienced and effective but right now he is the weakest link in the seam bowling dept.
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Yes but the fact of the matter is that he bowled a very good length in the ODIs, got the ball to seam around a bit when conditions permitted it, troubled the likes of Williamson and was lauded by the commentators. Additionally, he has been putting a lot of effort into his bowling. If you compare his bowling action from now to what it was before he became a regular in the team, you can easily see that he's putting a lot more effort and is thinking more about his bowling.

Amir struggled to pick up wickets throughout the ODIs, Rumman was only good at the end of the innings and Hasan was off-colour. Faheem was effectively the best bowler though that doesn't mean he is a world-beater or anything.

I am not very good at the technical aspects of fast-bowling but due to these aforementioned factors, I find it hard to believe that he was the 'weak link' in our attack.
 
Abdullah719 said:
Yes but the fact of the matter is that he bowled a very good length in the ODIs, got the ball to seam around a bit when conditions permitted it, troubled the likes of Williamson and was lauded by the commentators. Additionally, he has been putting a lot of effort into his bowling. If you compare his bowling action from now to what it was before he became a regular in the team, you can easily see that he's putting a lot more effort and is thinking more about his bowling.

Amir struggled to pick up wickets throughout the ODIs, Rumman was only good at the end of the innings and Hasan was off-colour. Faheem was effectively the best bowler though that doesn't mean he is a world-beater or anything.

I am not very good at the technical aspects of fast-bowling but due to these aforementioned factors, I find it hard to believe that he was the 'weak link' in our attack.
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IMO he was our best bowler in the ODIs... just didn't get enough wickets. He certainly troubled the Kiwis alot more than Amir or Hasan.
 
Mamoon said:
Bhatti was good on his day. He was sharp and nippy, but he was too short and didn’t have any skills.
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He had good pace and accurate yorkers. Sadly he lost his control so quickly. His short height was what made his yorkers even more difficult to get away. Batter werent able to use crease to get their bat under the ball. He could have become a good t20 bowler though.
 
I am hoping S Afridi get into national team circle soon, he is one of those guys who needs to invested early on. He has height and skills, ideal tool chain for fast bowler. With national setup, his fitness level can be monitored and developed. He looked international ready, Pakistani players dont learn anything in domestic, no point wasting talent in domestic... He is ideal third seamer, we should develop him for WC. Raees and Junaid are 120s trundler with very little skill or other assets, they can never be tier 1 pacers...The other U19 pacer is also not bad, he is 6'2"+ and has decent pace, we need to watch him as well... But S Afridi is must for our chances in WC...

Raees action is terrible, he can never develop pace with that action. His skills are not good enough to stay in the team with this pace...Junaid was temp hire before we get a decent pacer...Faheem can be on par or better than both, if continue to develop...I dont see Raees and Junaid as future...
 
Even if he is good enough as a third seamer, we should always go with 3 genuine pacers and a fast bowling allrounder (faheem) specially outside subcontinent.
 
5 - 7 overs is good enough for him . Beyond that if he consistently bowls 10 overs , his batting would be affected. In good seaming conditions he can do 10 overs once in a while.
 
His bowling has improved. Give him time and opportunities and his batting will improve.
 
Yes & No - because of Hasan.

He bowls with a slingy action (Mamoon calling it ugly, but I find it quite reasonable) and he can clock 140Ks, may be he can add couple more after a year, which is good for old ball; but at his height, I don't think he'll ever be a good new ball bowler.

Now, in Asia PAK must play 2 genuine spinners + Hari; where I think Fahim can be used as 3rd pacer and he should master the old ball bowling so that he can be the finisher. 3/4 overs with new ball by Hasan or Fahim and long opening spell by Amir is perfect for Asia.

Outside Asia, Hasan shouldn't be using the new ball; rather PAK should play a new ball specialist, which Fahim isn't. Therefore, he should play as 4th pacer and one spinner makes the way for the specialist pacer, preferably one of those two U19 pacers; who right now is better than what PAK took in NZ, apart from Amir.

Overall good potential, but alarmingly declining with bat - he'll hardly be the bowler whom PAK can accommodate with a <15/<100 batting stats.
 
MMHS said:
Overall good potential, but alarmingly declining with bat - he'll hardly be the bowler whom PAK can accommodate with a <15/<100 batting stats.
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Bit early to be saying this isn’t this?
 
babajee said:
Bit early to be saying this isn’t this?
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You have to read it other way - I am not saying that he is a batsman of the caliber of <15/<100 stats. Rather, I am saying if a bowler is as good as Amir or Hasan, then he should be selected even with <15/<100 stats - Fahim hardly likely to be that good with ball ever, hence his batting has to be better, or he'll lose his spot.

Ideally he should look for an ODI bowling average of ~35 at around 5.25 (max) economy and a batsman of 23-25 average BUT 100+ SR. He'll bat at 7/8, may be few times as pinch hitter - that average of 23-25 can be acceptable up to even as low as 18/19, IF that SR goes to over 110 or 115. PAK needs brutal hitter - someone who can come and instantly hit couple of boundaries for a 23 (12) sort of innings - and that brutal hitter can't be Tanvir style leg swagger - he has to hit it straight against yorkers and in side out off drives, may be helicopter shots as well.
 
I'm not worried by the batting output whatsoever. The boy can tee off
Need investing
 
Might be able to hold down a place in T20s, but in ODIs don't see him retaining no.7 next series when Imad returns. Imad too usually was trusted to bowl all 10 overs if needed unlike Fahim.

Think at the moment it's going to be 3rd pacer position or nothing.
 
Anyone changed their views? He's had a good showing bat and ball but with Raees injury he's definitely stepped up to the plate as a main bowler. He's also bowling quite a bit quicker that impressed me and so far has outperformed his competitors in Junaid and Usman ball alone.

Do people think he's capable of giving us 10 solid overs yet. I feel like he gets in as an allrounder at 7 in T20s anyway, but would still much prefer going with an extra bat and playing him at 8 in ODIs.
 
I'm still not convinced by his batting a good hitter sure, but not someone to build an innings which you need in ODIs at 7. I don't think he's ready for that yet, which is why I'd like to keep him at 8 and give him license to play his shots (or use him as a floater, promoted when we get a good start).
 
He is improving by the day... as the experts say “All rounders take time to develop” :)
 
He is right for number 8 . I do not think his bowling is good enough to be third pacer outside Asia.
 
No. He should be played as an allrounder with duties with both bat and ball. So 4th seamer or 5th bowling option. Turning him in to a bowling allrounder is useless because his batting is needed more.
 
He's doing really well with the ball yet again. Needs to be given full responsibility with the ball now, want to see him bowling full quota most games. Hasn't even bowled full quota once in ODIs yet.
 
ads101 said:
I'm still not convinced by his batting a good hitter sure, but not someone to build an innings which you need in ODIs at 7. I don't think he's ready for that yet, which is why I'd like to keep him at 8 and give him license to play his shots (or use him as a floater, promoted when we get a good start).
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If he has to come in at 7 and build an innings I Wonder what the top 6 were building?
 
IAJ said:
If he has to come in at 7 and build an innings I Wonder what the top 6 were building?
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At 7 you don't simply hit a few runs at the end of the total. That's only if the top 6 have done really well, which doesn't happen every game. A no.7 will be required to bat with the tail, forge an innings at the end of the innings if our top 6 haven't performed well enough. And finish matches under pressure (which will require him to get a certain number of runs under pressure without giving away his wicket). Simply hitting a bit at the end isn't the main job of a no.7.

Most teams are not playing hitters with an average of 20 at 7. Most average 35 even 40. And they aren't simply hitters, they're proper batsmen who can construct innings if needs be. If we look at our matches, so many times our top 6 has not performed, and a decent constructed innings at 7 would have been very much welcomed.

If we've got to the stage where we can't improve our top 6 anymore (which I think it's becoming to be the case, you can swap out Hafeez for Talat, but there's few other changes you can really make) and it's still not good enough, we have little other choice, but to pick guys lower down who can bat too. If Fahim can average 35 or so with the bat at 7, by all means that's fine but if he can't I'd rather get someone who can. If we don't get enough runs on the board consistently in ODIs we just can't compete with the top tier teams regularly. It's our biggest problem.
 
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ads101 said:
At 7 you don't simply hit a few runs at the end of the total. That's only if the top 6 have done really well, which doesn't happen every game. A no.7 will be required to bat with the tail, forge an innings at the end of the innings if our top 6 haven't performed well enough. And finish matches under pressure (which will require him to get a certain number of runs under pressure without giving away his wicket). Simply hitting a bit at the end isn't the main job of a no.7.

Most teams are not playing hitters with an average of 20 at 7. Most average 35 even 40. And they aren't simply hitters, they're proper batsmen who can construct innings if needs be. If we look at our matches, so many times our top 6 has not performed, and a decent constructed innings at 7 would have been very much welcomed.

If we've got to the stage where we can't improve our top 6 anymore (which I think it's becoming to be the case, you can swap out Hafeez for Talat, but there's few other changes you can really make) and it's still not good enough, we have little other choice, but to pick guys lower down who can bat too. If Fahim can average 35 or so with the bat at 7, by all means that's fine but if he can't I'd rather get someone who can. If we don't get enough runs on the board consistently in ODIs we just can't compete with the top tier teams regularly. It's our biggest problem.
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Middle-lower order doesn't have to be fixed.

If wicket falls in over 20-28 then Shadab comes, 28-37 Imad, 37+ Faheem.

Plus Hasan Ali is an extra hitter for overs 42+ and Amir is there in case of a collapse.
 
Rayyman said:
Middle-lower order doesn't have to be fixed.

If wicket falls in over 20-28 then Shadab comes, 28-37 Imad, 37+ Faheem.

Plus Hasan Ali is an extra hitter for overs 42+ and Amir is there in case of a collapse.
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Don't think there is any place for Imad in the playing XI.
 
For India, yeah. However, Pakistan's success hinges on their bowling, from a worldly point of view, and that is not something we should weaken.

Amir, Hasan, Junaid and Shadab should be our specialist bowlers. Faheem and Malik/Haris can fulfill the fifth bowling quota, with Usman, Raees and Imad as back-up. Probably not the best ODI attack in the world but definitely not lacking in any department either.
 
[MENTION=146530]DeadBall[/MENTION] if I had it my way then Imad wouldn't be in the team, but he is seen as a good player by management and selectors so guaranteed in the squad. Still better than Nawaz at this stage of their careers.

Imad is the least of our problems though. Pakistan have gotta get rid of MoHa, Malik and Shehzad first and foremost.
 
Rayyman said:
[MENTION=146530]DeadBall[/MENTION] if I had it my way then Imad wouldn't be in the team, but he is seen as a good player by management and selectors so guaranteed in the squad. Still better than Nawaz at this stage of their careers.

Imad is the least of our problems though. Pakistan have gotta get rid of MoHa, Malik and Shehzad first and foremost.
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Although he is the least of our problems, he should be none of our problems. One step at a time though.
 
DeadBall said:
Although he is the least of our problems, he should be none of our problems. One step at a time though.
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We need another "spinner" though. I'm not sold on Fakhar yet. Still remember the treatment he got from Pandya.
 
DeadBall said:
You mean Shadab?
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Yes Shadab too is prone to get hit. Fakhar and Shadab bowling together is not good. Pandya spanked them both.

Need an economical spinner like Zafar but he will not be picked so Imad is good enough.

Imad had the best economy rate of all non-minnow spinners in 2017. Only behind Graeme Cremer.
 
Rayyman said:
Yes Shadab too is prone to get hit. Fakhar and Shadab bowling together is not good. Pandya spanked them both.

Need an economical spinner like Zafar but he will not be picked so Imad is good enough.

Imad had the best economy rate of all non-minnow spinners in 2017. Only behind Graeme Cremer.
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If you have faheem and Shadab in the team , you can easily play another specialist spinner like Zafar or Raza hassan , both can bat a bit.
 
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