Is free will an illusion?

[Devilsadvokat]

Predestination v Free Will

If God knows that I will have a choice A, B, C or D. Now if he knows already that I will choose D and He is all the omniscient etc then my chance of choosing A, B or C is a big fat zero, where is my free will?

I hope ppl understand that perhaps this is s paradox, that most ppl don't think about it and say God knows best.

God even says he deliberately made some non-belivers by summum bukmun etc, seal their hearts and ears etc. What free will is giving them.

No God

Even if there is no God what free will do we have? We have no choice about where we born, when we born, what position sibling one is, what sex or gender we are, how clever we are, what class we are born into and then as all choices are either random or determined by previous events, what free will do we have?

Of course those who kill, steal etc cannot use the defence of no free will because they are still a danger to society and need to be locked away.

I still can't get my head round it, it would be very interesting to hear the dharmic, mysticism angle, so the learned ones from India and there take on this.

Anyone can contribute.

 

[Musakhel]

https://youtu.be/-WmgG0fZsQk

 

[last_knight]

Not in the beginning of things but eventually one gets to the stage where free will does become an illusion.

 

[Devilsadvokat]

Not in the beginning of things but eventually one gets to the stage where free will does become an illusion.

I think it is the opposite. Are you saying that you had more free will as a child. Like you chose who you were born to? What sex you were? What class/politucs/religion you grew up in. Whether you were born first or last of five, what month of the school year, were you older or younger to the average of your year, the jobs your parents did including raising you.

You think you have less free will than that _now_?

I feel for you.

 

[Devilsadvokat]

https://youtu.be/-WmgG0fZsQk

It takes him 1.38 to get round to addressing the question. Tells a few jokes to warm the room full of young females, he was in his element, obviously charismatic.

Then we have some profound sounding woo woo which is paradox upon paradox, making out God is beyond everything in every possible way, the answer to everything which is illogical in every respect. This preamble is an indication to the audience 'don't bother thinking about it, I've done all the thinking for you and even I can't explain it.

Then we hear summat about perfection and first thought is 'Why does He get so emotional?

I then began to write this post, I need a few hours before I hear his version of mental contortions to fit into a paradox.

 

[Musakhel]

It takes him 1.38 to get round to addressing the question. Tells a few jokes to warm the room full of young females, he was in his element, obviously charismatic.

Then we have some profound sounding woo woo which is paradox upon paradox, making out God is beyond everything in every possible way, the answer to everything which is illogical in every respect. This preamble is an indication to the audience 'don't bother thinking about it, I've done all the thinking for you and even I can't explain it.

Then we hear summat about perfection and first thought is 'Why does He get so emotional?

I then began to write this post, I need a few hours before I hear his version of mental contortions to fit into a paradox.

Dwelling on this issue too long can lead too confusion, to put it simply, the proof for free will is that whenever we do something, we feel as if we have done it ourself, that is free will, and we experience this all the time.

Of course there is exceptions when someone is forced to do something, or when something happens which they can't control such as shivvering, that does not come under free will.

 

[last_knight]

I think it is the opposite. Are you saying that you had more free will as a child. Like you chose who you were born to? What sex you were? What class/politucs/religion you grew up in. Whether you were born first or last of five, what month of the school year, were you older or younger to the average of your year, the jobs your parents did including raising you.

You think you have less free will than that _now_?

I feel for you.

Thank you sir for feeling for me.

Free will is attribute of conscious. Children primitively follow the subconscious. There is a reason for age threshold differentiating "kids under supervision of guardian" and Independent teens.
May be some other time you can read it again and essence of what I said will be more evident to you. Peace till then.

 

[DeadBall]

Of course there is exceptions when someone is forced to do something, or when something happens which they can't control such as shivvering, that does not come under free will.

You Sir, win the internet for the day.

 

[Devilsadvokat]

.
Of course there is exceptions when someone is forced to do something, or when something happens which they can't control such as shivvering, that does not come under free will.

I'm not sure how to respond to the rest of your post as I am still unsure of my position
But I am learning. I will say that when you are born one does not have control over over their bladder or behind but within a few years our minds can control these _reflex_ actions, I think they are called. Mind over matter.

I allow myself a digress as it is my thread how can possibly choose what to believe. If I said to you to _not_ believe in God methinks it would be impossible for you to do so, what choice so you really have? It would be the same for me if you said I could easily choose to believe I God, I just can't and has nothing to do traumatic events or the price of tea in China, damn my mixed metaphors.

 

[Musakhel]

I'm not sure how to respond to the rest of your post as I am still unsure of my position
But I am learning. I will say that when you are born one does not have control over over their bladder or behind but within a few years our minds can control these _reflex_ actions, I think they are called. Mind over matter.

I allow myself a digress as it is my thread how can possibly choose what to believe. If I said to you to _not_ believe in God methinks it would be impossible for you to do so, what choice so you really have? It would be the same for me if you said I could easily choose to believe I God, I just can't and has nothing to do traumatic events or the price of tea in China, damn my mixed metaphors.

Faith is truly a matter of the heart, But yes Allah guides whom he wills. It may be that because in your heart you can not bring your self to belief, this is indication that you are doomed for failure, however know one knows there end, And if Allah wills you may die on Iman.

 

[gazza619]

Let me give you an example. I know my child. I know the fact that if I was to put a book in one hand and a phone in the other hand, he would chose the phone. I knew it because I am the parent.

Are you going to suggest that my child does not have free will?

 

[DeadBall]

however know one knows there end, And if Allah wills you may die on Iman.

So basically, no free will.

 

[DeadBall]

Let me give you an example. I know my child. I know the fact that if I was to put a book in one hand and a phone in the other hand, he would chose the phone. I knew it because I am the parent.

Are you going to suggest that my child does not have free will?

Not if he was predestined to go to hell for choosing the phone.

 

[Devilsadvokat]

I think I have figured it out and as I suspected there is no free will. I can usually follow an argument bit I had difficulty following the arguments for and against free will being a illusion.

As a Muslim free will confused me, it didn't exist but why question it, you gotta have faith.

As an agnostic free will is up for debate, athiest including two of the four celebrity athiest are on opposite sides of the argument, Harris and Dennet, the former doesn't think we have the latter for it, it's a type of free will, the name escapes me.

Right imagine a scenario.

Individual A - Standard upbringing but due to mental illness running in the family, by the time individual A is 20 unbeknownst to him his brain chemistry is altered. Let's say individual A's has a bit of bipolar and hypomania.

Hypomania is a mental illness but can remain undetected because it doesn't produce a phycotic event (which is what mania is - madness) and this individual can exist in society, just about. Hypomania is like the opposite of depression in the sense that even tho ones circumstances are not great, hypomaniacs are on like a natural high and don't feel the sense of failure a normal person would.

So remember Individual A at 20 has undetected hypomania and one thing hypomaniacs have is creativity, entrepeneural skill, confidence and the natural intelligence they were born with.

Unfortunately hypomaniacs don't have the same reality as 'normal' people because they are on a high ( chemicals in brain) most of the time and make detrimental decisions in life. For example hypomaniacs will leave a secure 9 to 5 job because they have decided that they will write the next international bestseller. Hypomania also comes with other factors, which explain why individual A chose to do a certain thing, like leave a job to write a best seller.

So now we have an Individual A who thinks he has the choice of leaving his job to write best seller but unbeknownst to the individual it is the brain chemistry that has driven this decision.

This individual then continues to live without knowing about the hypomania and racks up some memorable choices he made. Normal people looking on would think why has individual A chosen to do that? What was he thinking?

Hypomania has other effects to, the individual chases pleasure, cannot focus through one full task, is reckless with money. I think now I have enough examples to make my point.

We meet individual A at 50 and look back at the litany of choices they made, choices you would say the individual made of his free will.

But now Individual A is informed about the condition hypomania and when looking back on thirty years of life that not one of the decisions were made by the individual himself but by his brain chemistry. Other people of course think that the individual himself us making the decision, in a way he is and he isn't, it's an illusion of free will.

Put together the same chemistry in the brain in another individual, let's call him B.

B would then make the same decisions as individual A, because of the brain chemistry that he has no control over.

Ergo where is Individual A's free will? So if we now conclude that brain chemistry drives our decisions at the time, then that it is how it works with every individual from the sanest of the sane to the maddest of mad.

We are but chemicals in a brain. We have no choice or free will, it just seems as we do.

I'm sure I could have written the above more easier to read, but it's late, will clarify any points that need clarifying.

This would be proof against an Abrahamic God.

Hypomaniacs are also known to make grandiose statements.

 

[Madplayer]

God knowing what you are going to choose doesnt mean he has taken away your free will. The choice is made by you. God just knows what you will choose because he is all knowing.

 

[Madplayer]

I think I have figured it out and as I suspected there is no free will. I can usually follow an argument bit I had difficulty following the arguments for and against free will being a illusion.

As a Muslim free will confused me, it didn't exist but why question it, you gotta have faith.

As an agnostic free will is up for debate, athiest including two of the four celebrity athiest are on opposite sides of the argument, Harris and Dennet, the former doesn't think we have the latter for it, it's a type of free will, the name escapes me.

Right imagine a scenario.

Individual A - Standard upbringing but due to mental illness running in the family, by the time individual A is 20 unbeknownst to him his brain chemistry is altered. Let's say individual A's has a bit of bipolar and hypomania.

Hypomania is a mental illness but can remain undetected because it doesn't produce a phycotic event (which is what mania is - madness) and this individual can exist in society, just about. Hypomania is like the opposite of depression in the sense that even tho ones circumstances are not great, hypomaniacs are on like a natural high and don't feel the sense of failure a normal person would.

So remember Individual A at 20 has undetected hypomania and one thing hypomaniacs have is creativity, entrepeneural skill, confidence and the natural intelligence they were born with.

Unfortunately hypomaniacs don't have the same reality as 'normal' people because they are on a high ( chemicals in brain) most of the time and make detrimental decisions in life. For example hypomaniacs will leave a secure 9 to 5 job because they have decided that they will write the next international bestseller. Hypomania also comes with other factors, which explain why individual A chose to do a certain thing, like leave a job to write a best seller.

So now we have an Individual A who thinks he has the choice of leaving his job to write best seller but unbeknownst to the individual it is the brain chemistry that has driven this decision.

This individual then continues to live without knowing about the hypomania and racks up some memorable choices he made. Normal people looking on would think why has individual A chosen to do that? What was he thinking?

Hypomania has other effects to, the individual chases pleasure, cannot focus through one full task, is reckless with money. I think now I have enough examples to make my point.

We meet individual A at 50 and look back at the litany of choices they made, choices you would say the individual made of his free will.

But now Individual A is informed about the condition hypomania and when looking back on thirty years of life that not one of the decisions were made by the individual himself but by his brain chemistry. Other people of course think that the individual himself us making the decision, in a way he is and he isn't, it's an illusion of free will.

Put together the same chemistry in the brain in another individual, let's call him B.

B would then make the same decisions as individual A, because of the brain chemistry that he has no control over.

Ergo where is Individual A's free will? So if we now conclude that brain chemistry drives our decisions at the time, then that it is how it works with every individual from the sanest of the sane to the maddest of mad.

We are but chemicals in a brain. We have no choice or free will, it just seems as we do.

I'm sure I could have written the above more easier to read, but it's late, will clarify any points that need clarifying.

This would be proof against an Abrahamic God.

Hypomaniacs are also known to make grandiose statements.

This sounds like PR for Hypomaniacs. Singing their praises and stuff. I think you called yourself a Hypomaniac in one of the threads didnt you? Makes sense why you would write such a post.

By the way Brain chemistry IS that individual. So How is this proof against God? Give a short, to the point answer rather than playing around with words.

 

[Devilsadvokat]

This sounds like PR for Hypomaniacs. Singing their praises and stuff. I think you called yourself a Hypomaniac in one of the threads didnt you? Makes sense why you would write such a post.

Singing their praises? They are bordering on madness, they might be creative and intelligent but they can never finish a task, so cannot take advantage of their creativity or intellugenve, make stupid decisions that affect their and those closest to them, mostly known as losers in life and you think I am singing their praises!!

By the way Brain chemistry IS that individual. So How is this proof against God? Give a short, to the point answer rather than playing around with words.

Not that I am sure but if my brain chemicals were in you, you'd be me, the chemicals determine the actions one does, not their 'mind' or in the case of theist, their 'soul' which both atheist and theist think _is_ making the choices.

Did I say that this was proof against God lol, if I did then that is the grandiosity I was talking about, it doesn't do that. What it does do is hopefully and what it has done for me is that it shows that free will is an illusion and therefore the mantra that 'life is a test' is a sick way to determine who ends up in the warm or cold house in the if and when hereafter.

Now you tell me how do I determine the chemicals in my brain? How did I choose to be born to the parents I have, or my position in order of siblings, or the religion I was born into, the people who were available for me to make friends with, my level of intelligence, the money my parents had growing up, none were my choice, yet all determined my brain chemistry, throw in a little mental illness (again something I had no choice over) and I ask how did _I choose_my brain chemistry and _yes_ that is _me_ the individual but i dont think I am _responsible_. A bit unfair if it means I end up in Hell.

 

[Musakhel]

So basically, no free will.

Allah guides people but they still have to take the leap of faith, that final leap is there free will.

 

[Devilsadvokat]

Allah guides people but they still have to take the leap of faith, that final leap is there free will.

He doesn't guide them, if He exists He controls which family they are born into then He deliberately sets seals on certain people's hearts and minds as stated in Qur'an.

Then He deliberately makes the evidence look like we evolved via Evolution and still expects us to believe.

It's a game to Him rather than something profound.

 

[Madplayer]

Singing their praises? They are bordering on madness, they might be creative and intelligent but they can never finish a task, so cannot take advantage of their creativity or intellugenve, make stupid decisions that affect their and those closest to them, mostly known as losers in life and you think I am singing their praises!!

It sounded like praises that time. Now it doesnt when you put it this way.

Not that I am sure but if my brain chemicals were in you, you'd be me, the chemicals determine the actions one does, not their 'mind' or in the case of theist, their 'soul' which both atheist and theist think _is_ making the choices.

But your brain chemicals are not in me. They are in you and will remain there. So your brain chemicals is just you. This is established. Moving on.

Did I say that this was proof against God lol, if I did then that is the grandiosity I was talking about, it doesn't do that. What it does do is hopefully and what it has done for me is that it shows that free will is an illusion and therefore the mantra that 'life is a test' is a sick way to determine who ends up in the warm or cold house in the if and when hereafter.

Now you tell me how do I determine the chemicals in my brain? How did I choose to be born to the parents I have, or my position in order of siblings, or the religion I was born into, the people who were available for me to make friends with, my level of intelligence, the money my parents had growing up, none were my choice, yet all determined my brain chemistry, throw in a little mental illness (again something I had no choice over) and I ask how did _I choose_my brain chemistry and _yes_ that is _me_ the individual but i dont think I am _responsible_. A bit unfair if it means I end up in Hell.

This is an interesting way of looking at things. Actually reminds me of John rawl's monumental idea of the "veil of ignorance" and idea of justice in world which started a massive debate some decades ago.

I would put it this way. Whatever context you are born into is not your choice. That is true. But nobody claimed that you will get a choice before you are born. It is said that you enjoy free will during your life (not before starting it), notwithstanding the conditions you are born in. Hence the idea that life is a test. This test is unique for each one of us and we have to deal with whatever test we are given. God has sent us guidance to make everything clear to us. God is most merciful so He will judge us according to the hardships that we endure and the disabilities (if any) that we had to live with.

 

[Madplayer]

He doesn't guide them, if He exists He controls which family they are born into then He deliberately sets seals on certain people's hearts and minds as stated in Qur'an.

Then He deliberately makes the evidence look like we evolved via Evolution and still expects us to believe.

It's a game to Him rather than something profound.

You have misunderstood the "seal their hearts verse".

Its actually a problem with all of us non Arabic speakers that we dont always understand the manner of speech. Verse does not mean God has sealed their hearts deliberately. It simply means that they had the free will to choose whatever they want in life and they decided to go astray and choose the wrong way. "Sealed the heart" part is simply there to emphasise that nothing in general happens without the permission of God and that He has indeed permitted them to go astray rather than taking away their free will and forcing them onto the path He likes.

 

[Devilsadvokat]

You have misunderstood the "seal their hearts verse".

Its actually a problem with all of us non Arabic speakers that we dont always understand the manner of speech. Verse does not mean God has sealed their hearts deliberately. It simply means that they had the free will to choose whatever they want in life and they decided to go astray and choose the wrong way. "Sealed the heart" part is simply there to emphasise that nothing in general happens without the permission of God and that He has indeed permitted them to go astray rather than taking away their free will and forcing them onto the path He likes.

Gonna tackle both your posts soon enough, might be s day or two depending on how I feel. In fact Azmi ( a third of The Unholy Trinity) might tackle the verse bit and if you say he isn't an authority because he is not an ustaad, then neither are you.

Also another reason the Qur'an should never been sent in one language, an oversight by God?

 

[Devilsadvokat]

We cannot be 'free' in a fundamental sense, ie free from cause and effect, because freedom from cause and effect would mean random. If you make a choice for no reason, that means you have just made a random choice. And random choice is not free either.

 

[Devilsadvokat]

Faith is truly a matter of the heart, But yes Allah guides whom he wills. It may be that because in your heart you can not bring your self to belief, this is indication that you are doomed for failure, however know one knows there end, And if Allah wills you may die on Iman.

It has nothing to do with my heart, if I said to you, pleaded with you that let your heart accept that the capital of China was Paris, or the sky is green or there is _no_ God, could you choose to believe. I don't think so, well it works the same for me.

 

[Devilsadvokat]

But your brain chemicals are not in me. They are in you and will remain there. So your brain chemicals is just you. This is established. Moving on.

This is my fundamental point, so we can't just move on. I have no choice over my brain chemistry, it was not set up by me but determines my choices so I have no free will, it is all down to the chemicals in the brain. I could fundamentally change you by altering the levels of chemicals in your brain, you'd make different choices.

Brain chemistry is most likely set up by the age of 15, genetics and environment would be big factors both if which generally that children have no choice over, this gives me another reason not to subject kids to constant religious indoctrination as it affects the brain chemistry.

If I have no control of my brain chemistry how can I be held responsible for my actions?

Sure if I drank alcohol, took drugs that would change brain chemistry if taken long enough but the main setting of ones chemicals are set at the end of childhood, I don't know this for sure but it us my educated guess.

We do not have free will, just am illusion of it.

This is an interesting way of looking at things. Actually reminds me of John rawl's monumental idea of the "veil of ignorance" and idea of justice in world which started a massive debate some decades ago.

I will have to look into that but even if a murderer says "I had no free will per se, your honour' if convicted he would still need to be locked up for the safety if the public, free will or no free will.

I would put it this way. Whatever context you are born into is not your choice. That is true. But nobody claimed that you will get a choice before you are born. It is said that you enjoy free will during your life (not before starting it), notwithstanding the conditions you are born in. Hence the idea that life is a test. This test is unique for each one of us and we have to deal with whatever test we are given. God has sent us guidance to make everything clear to us. God is most merciful so He will judge us according to the hardships that we endure and the disabilities (if any) that we had to live with.

Even after your born there are events one has no choice in. Born a boy or girl. Born eldest in family or youngest. One's genetics. One's intelligence. One's education. One's class. One's environment of the top if my head. No choice is free, either it is determined by cause and effect if not it is random so still not free.

Bit nonsensical of God to give say homosexuality to an individual and say 'now deal with it.

Hence my observation that it should be polytheist who enter heaven at some point in 'life' because they faces the hardest battle in life in terms of religion and non-practising Muslims should not be given the 'Get out of Hell card because they had foreknowledge and still ignored.

And you can't deliver justice and mercy, that means some people will get justice and others mercy and that seems to be based on Gods whims and desires, as in what He feels like.

 

[Robert]

The neurologists say there is no free will. You will only every choose one course because of the way your head is programmed at the molecular level. You might think you have a choice but the act of choosing can only every go one way.

It is difficult to dispute this.

 

[Mages]

You have misunderstood the "seal their hearts verse".

Its actually a problem with all of us non Arabic speakers that we dont always understand the manner of speech. Verse does not mean God has sealed their hearts deliberately. It simply means that they had the free will to choose whatever they want in life and they decided to go astray and choose the wrong way. "Sealed the heart" part is simply there to emphasise that nothing in general happens without the permission of God and that He has indeed permitted them to go astray rather than taking away their free will and forcing them onto the path He likes.

Allah letting you to go astray is not the same as Him deliberately sealing your heart. Verse 9:51 & 4:88 confrims that. This is not about knowing the future but deciding it priorly. It's further supported by the sunnah.So there is no real free will here.


Say: ‘Nothing will happen to us except what Allah has decreed for us: He is our protector’: and on Allah let the Believers put their trust.” (Qur'an 9:51)

Do you wish to guide him whom Allah has caused to err? And whomsoever Allah causes to err, you shall by no means find a way for him (Qur'an 4:88)

Abu Hurairah reported the Messenger of Allah (May peace be upon him) as saying :
Adam and Moses held a disputation. Moses said : Adam you are our father. You deprived us and caused us to come out from Paradise. Adam said : You are Moses Allah chose you for his speech and wrote the Torah for you with his hand. Do you blame me for doing a deed which Allah had decreed that I should do forty year before he created me? So Adam got the better of Moses in argument.
Ahmad b. Salih said from 'Amr from Tawus who heard Abu Hurairah.
Reference : Sunan Abi Dawud 4701

 

[Devilsadvokat]

The neurologists say there is no free will. You will only every choose one course because of the way your head is programmed at the molecular level. You might think you have a choice but the act of choosing can only every go one way.

It is difficult to dispute this.

You seem as if you want to dispute it. Most likely because it does seem we have a choice. There is some dessert in the fridge, I have been thinking about having a few spoonfuls for the past few minutes, having a conversation with my brain or mind, wonder who will win.

 

[Devilsadvokat]

Allah letting you to go astray is not the same as Him deliberately sealing your heart. Verse 9:51 & 4:88 confrims that. This is not about knowing the future but deciding it priorly. It's further supported by the sunnah.So there is no real free will here

Debate/discussion over. Science and Qur'an correlate at last.

 

[Madplayer]

This is my fundamental point, so we can't just move on. I have no choice over my brain chemistry, it was not set up by me but determines my choices so I have no free will, it is all down to the chemicals in the brain. I could fundamentally change you by altering the levels of chemicals in your brain, you'd make different choices.

Brain chemistry is most likely set up by the age of 15, genetics and environment would be big factors both if which generally that children have no choice over, this gives me another reason not to subject kids to constant religious indoctrination as it affects the brain chemistry.

If I have no control of my brain chemistry how can I be held responsible for my actions?

Sure if I drank alcohol, took drugs that would change brain chemistry if taken long enough but the main setting of ones chemicals are set at the end of childhood, I don't know this for sure but it us my educated guess.

We do not have free will, just am illusion of it.



I will have to look into that but even if a murderer says "I had no free will per se, your honour' if convicted he would still need to be locked up for the safety if the public, free will or no free will.



Even after your born there are events one has no choice in. Born a boy or girl. Born eldest in family or youngest. One's genetics. One's intelligence. One's education. One's class. One's environment of the top if my head. No choice is free, either it is determined by cause and effect if not it is random so still not free.

Bit nonsensical of God to give say homosexuality to an individual and say 'now deal with it.

Hence my observation that it should be polytheist who enter heaven at some point in 'life' because they faces the hardest battle in life in terms of religion and non-practising Muslims should not be given the 'Get out of Hell card because they had foreknowledge and still ignored.

And you can't deliver justice and mercy, that means some people will get justice and others mercy and that seems to be based on Gods whims and desires, as in what He feels like.

Gonna answer this soon. Maybe tomorrow because it might be a long reply.

Allah letting you to go astray is not the same as Him deliberately sealing your heart. Verse 9:51 & 4:88 confrims that. This is not about knowing the future but deciding it priorly. It's further supported by the sunnah.So there is no real free will here.


Say: ‘Nothing will happen to us except what Allah has decreed for us: He is our protector’: and on Allah let the Believers put their trust.” (Qur'an 9:51)

Do you wish to guide him whom Allah has caused to err? And whomsoever Allah causes to err, you shall by no means find a way for him (Qur'an 4:88)

Abu Hurairah reported the Messenger of Allah (May peace be upon him) as saying :
Adam and Moses held a disputation. Moses said : Adam you are our father. You deprived us and caused us to come out from Paradise. Adam said : You are Moses Allah chose you for his speech and wrote the Torah for you with his hand. Do you blame me for doing a deed which Allah had decreed that I should do forty year before he created me? So Adam got the better of Moses in argument.
Ahmad b. Salih said from 'Amr from Tawus who heard Abu Hurairah.
Reference : Sunan Abi Dawud 4701

You have understood the entire concept wrongly and even the quotations you have mentioned have been explained differently by scholars than how you have understood them. There is no doubt whatsoever about free will in Islam and we are taught about it since childhood. I will get back to this soon with an appropriate reply. A bit busy today.

 

[Devilsadvokat]

Gonna answer this soon. Maybe tomorrow because it might be a long reply.

Take as long as you need, hope it's length is matched by it's substance and not just waffle.

There is no doubt whatsoever about free will in Islam and we are taught about it since childhood. I will get back to this soon with an appropriate reply. A bit busy today.

I don't doubt that there is free will in the Qur'an, it's in real life that it is an issue.

The fact that you were taught since childhood is a new type of logical fallacy, it might have a name but it's new to me. You are also taught that God made earth in six days.

 

[Madplayer]

Take as long as you need, hope it's length is matched by it's substance and not just waffle.

Sure

I don't doubt that there is free will in the Qur'an, it's in real life that it is an issue.

The fact that you were taught since childhood is a new type of logical fallacy, it might have a name but it's new to me. You are also taught that God made earth in six days.

God made earth in 6 days is a matter of blind faith. It cannot be debated because admittedly, it cannot be proved. However the matter of free will is more of a philosophical issue which can be debated. When i said that we have been taught about free will since childhood, i didnt mean to imply that the validity of concept in light of scriptures cannot be debated because of it. I simply mentioned it to supplement the fact that the concept is widely known and popular. Its not something on which there is division among muslims. That was all there was to it.

 

[Mamoon]

I abandoned religious discourse a long time ago, but the only thing I will add here is that the concept of free will is undoubtedly paradoxical and has never been convincingly answered by anyone.

The common analogy of the concept of free will is that if I give a person the choice between A and B and I know that he or she will choose A, it does not mean that I made him do it.

The problem with such examples is that it does not take into account the omnipotence of Allah SWT.

If I give a person a choice between A and B, and I have full knowledge that he or she will choose A, I still do not have the power to change his or her decision. It is merely a prediction.

However, Allah SWT does not predict. He is all-powerful and can make you choose the right path, but he does not always do that. There is a body of evidence in Quran and Hadees that Allah SWT guides whom He wills and the hearts of certain people have been sealed from accepting the truth.

Moreover, different circumstances and events have been forced on different human beings that influence their freedom of choice.

If we accept the belief that only Muslims can go to heaven, then the people born in non-Muslim families are expected to do their own soul searching and accept that Islam is the only true way.

However, Muslims by birth are already in a privileged position and have been forced to believe in the truth because of their sheer luck of being born in a Muslim family. So, how is the free will of a non-Muslim comparable to that of a Muslim?

Putting a person in a very difficult position out of no fault of his or her and then asking them to act on their free will and seek the truth is absurd, simply because fluke Muslims (Muslims by birth, i.e. the vast majority of us) have not been put in the same difficult situation. Also, what about the free will of the people who have been predestined for hell?

Furthermore, Allah SWT sent down 124,000 prophets/messengers to complete Islam. The reason why sent down 124,000 prophets was because the message of Islam was lost and corrupted before Prophet Muhammad PBUH, and He guaranteed that the Quran will never be altered.

Then again, He also claims that the universe was created for Prophet Muhammad PBUH, which means that He intended to send down 123,999 prophets and have their message corrupted and distorted, which means that He intended to have the majority of the people to not believe in the message of these respective prophets.

If the majority of the people would have believed in the previous prophets, there would have been no need of sending 124,000 to complete the religion of Islam.

Now this begs the question - how much free will did the people of Ibrahim, Nuh, Musa, Yousuf, Yaqoob, Dawud, Isa etc. have, if Allah SWT never intended for them to be the final bearers of the truth?

If the majority of people of these prophets and the others unnamed messengers had accepted Islam, there would have been no need for the prophets and messengers after them, but they were destined to go astray for the objective of 124,000 to be fulfilled.

All of this makes the concept of free will highly questionable. Free will goes out of the window when so much luck is involved, i.e. the luck of being born as a Muslim or a non-Muslim.

I am taking a holistic approach here and thus only focusing on religion, but you can break it down further into where you are born, when you are born, your gender, the financial status of your family, whether your parents are happily married or divorced etc.

You do not have a say in any of this but yet they greatly impact your so-called freewill and the choices you make in life.

For example, a person born in a poor family is more likely to become a thief compared to a person born with a golden spoon. Again, how much of his or her decision to become a thief out of free will and how much is it because of the circumstanced that he or she has been exposed to?

The more I delve into this topic, the more I realize that free will is nothing but an illusion. We are living in a movie or a tv series, whichever you prefer. Allah SWT wrote the script and directed it, and we along with the other actors (people in our lives) are simply acting it out not knowing what is coming next.

It is important for us to believe in the illusion of freewill because it motives us to do things. If we know that everything has been determined for us already, we will not do anything because we will eventually meet our fate anyway.

The illusion of freewill is necessary for us because it helps us take action. We like to believe that we are in control of our lives and are decisions shape the future.

 

[Red Devil]

I abandoned religious discourse a long time ago, but the only thing I will add here is that the concept of free will is undoubtedly paradoxical and has never been convincingly answered by anyone.

The common analogy of the concept of free will is that if I give a person the choice between A and B and I know that he or she will choose A, it does not mean that I made him do it.

The problem with such examples is that it does not take into account the omnipotence of Allah SWT.

If I give a person a choice between A and B, and I have full knowledge that he or she will choose A, I still do not have the power to change his or her decision. It is merely a prediction.

However, Allah SWT does not predict. He is all-powerful and can make you choose the right path, but he does not always do that. There is a body of evidence in Quran and Hadees that Allah SWT guides whom He wills and the hearts of certain people have been sealed from accepting the truth.

Moreover, different circumstances and events have been forced on different human beings that influence their freedom of choice.

If we accept the belief that only Muslims can go to heaven, then the people born in non-Muslim families are expected to do their own soul searching and accept that Islam is the only true way.

However, Muslims by birth are already in a privileged position and have been forced to believe in the truth because of their sheer luck of being born in a Muslim family. So, how is the free will of a non-Muslim comparable to that of a Muslim?

Putting a person in a very difficult position out of no fault of his or her and then asking them to act on their free will and seek the truth is absurd, simply because fluke Muslims (Muslims by birth, i.e. the vast majority of us) have not been put in the same difficult situation. Also, what about the free will of the people who have been predestined for hell?

Furthermore, Allah SWT sent down 124,000 prophets/messengers to complete Islam. The reason why sent down 124,000 prophets was because the message of Islam was lost and corrupted before Prophet Muhammad PBUH, and He guaranteed that the Quran will never be altered.

Then again, He also claims that the universe was created for Prophet Muhammad PBUH, which means that He intended to send down 123,999 prophets and have their message corrupted and distorted, which means that He intended to have the majority of the people to not believe in the message of these respective prophets.

If the majority of the people would have believed in the previous prophets, there would have been no need of sending 124,000 to complete the religion of Islam.

Now this begs the question - how much free will did the people of Ibrahim, Nuh, Musa, Yousuf, Yaqoob, Dawud, Isa etc. have, if Allah SWT never intended for them to be the final bearers of the truth?

If the majority of people of these prophets and the others unnamed messengers had accepted Islam, there would have been no need for the prophets and messengers after them, but they were destined to go astray for the objective of 124,000 to be fulfilled.

All of this makes the concept of free will highly questionable. Free will goes out of the window when so much luck is involved, i.e. the luck of being born as a Muslim or a non-Muslim.

I am taking a holistic approach here and thus only focusing on religion, but you can break it down further into where you are born, when you are born, your gender, the financial status of your family, whether your parents are happily married or divorced etc.

You do not have a say in any of this but yet they greatly impact your so-called freewill and the choices you make in life.

For example, a person born in a poor family is more likely to become a thief compared to a person born with a golden spoon. Again, how much of his or her decision to become a thief out of free will and how much is it because of the circumstanced that he or she has been exposed to?

The more I delve into this topic, the more I realize that free will is nothing but an illusion. We are living in a movie or a tv series, whichever you prefer. Allah SWT wrote the script and directed it, and we along with the other actors (people in our lives) are simply acting it out not knowing what is coming next.

It is important for us to believe in the illusion of freewill because it motives us to do things. If we know that everything has been determined for us already, we will not do anything because we will eventually meet our fate anyway.

The illusion of freewill is necessary for us because it helps us take action. We like to believe that we are in control of our lives and are decisions shape the future.

But if we don't choose our actions, how can we be held accountable for them? The whole concept of morality collapses if we believe that free will is an illusion.

 

[Mamoon]

But if we don't choose our actions, how can we be held accountable for them? The whole concept of morality collapses if we believe that free will is an illusion.

That is because of our belief that we are accountable for our decisions. The illusion of freewill is necessary for there to be any order in society.

I think morality exists, but He decides who gets to be moral and immoral. We are simply following the path that has been laid out for us.

If He has chosen for me to do X on day Y in the year Z, I will do that not matter what - I will meet my fate.

At least this is what I have come to believe in after struggling with the freewill paradox for years.

 

[srh]

Let me give you an example. I know my child. I know the fact that if I was to put a book in one hand and a phone in the other hand, he would chose the phone. I knew it because I am the parent.

Are you going to suggest that my child does not have free will?

nice example

 

[Red Devil]

That is because of our belief that we are accountable for our decisions. The illusion of freewill is necessary for there to be any order in society.

I think morality exists, but He decides who gets to be moral and immoral. We are simply following the path that has been laid out for us.

If He has chosen for me to do X on day Y in the year Z, I will do that not matter what - I will meet my fate.

At least this is what I have come to believe in after struggling with the freewill paradox for years.

Can't argue with your point about the need for accountability to maintain order in society but I'm not just talking about accountability in this world but in the hereafter too. How can people be punished for their sins or rewarded for their good deeds if they had no control over their actions at all?

I'm in the same boat as you when it comes to struggling with this question for quite some time but I think there has to be more to it. From a logical point of view, the idea of determinism sounds the most plausible to me but it's definitely not compatible with my faith.

 

[last_knight]

I abandoned religious discourse a long time ago, but the only thing I will add here is that the concept of free will is undoubtedly paradoxical and has never been convincingly answered by anyone.

The common analogy of the concept of free will is that if I give a person the choice between A and B and I know that he or she will choose A, it does not mean that I made him do it.

The problem with such examples is that it does not take into account the omnipotence of Allah SWT.

If I give a person a choice between A and B, and I have full knowledge that he or she will choose A, I still do not have the power to change his or her decision. It is merely a prediction.

However, Allah SWT does not predict. He is all-powerful and can make you choose the right path, but he does not always do that. There is a body of evidence in Quran and Hadees that Allah SWT guides whom He wills and the hearts of certain people have been sealed from accepting the truth.

Moreover, different circumstances and events have been forced on different human beings that influence their freedom of choice.

If we accept the belief that only Muslims can go to heaven, then the people born in non-Muslim families are expected to do their own soul searching and accept that Islam is the only true way.

However, Muslims by birth are already in a privileged position and have been forced to believe in the truth because of their sheer luck of being born in a Muslim family. So, how is the free will of a non-Muslim comparable to that of a Muslim?

Putting a person in a very difficult position out of no fault of his or her and then asking them to act on their free will and seek the truth is absurd, simply because fluke Muslims (Muslims by birth, i.e. the vast majority of us) have not been put in the same difficult situation. Also, what about the free will of the people who have been predestined for hell?

Furthermore, Allah SWT sent down 124,000 prophets/messengers to complete Islam. The reason why sent down 124,000 prophets was because the message of Islam was lost and corrupted before Prophet Muhammad PBUH, and He guaranteed that the Quran will never be altered.

Then again, He also claims that the universe was created for Prophet Muhammad PBUH, which means that He intended to send down 123,999 prophets and have their message corrupted and distorted, which means that He intended to have the majority of the people to not believe in the message of these respective prophets.

If the majority of the people would have believed in the previous prophets, there would have been no need of sending 124,000 to complete the religion of Islam.

Now this begs the question - how much free will did the people of Ibrahim, Nuh, Musa, Yousuf, Yaqoob, Dawud, Isa etc. have, if Allah SWT never intended for them to be the final bearers of the truth?

If the majority of people of these prophets and the others unnamed messengers had accepted Islam, there would have been no need for the prophets and messengers after them, but they were destined to go astray for the objective of 124,000 to be fulfilled.

All of this makes the concept of free will highly questionable. Free will goes out of the window when so much luck is involved, i.e. the luck of being born as a Muslim or a non-Muslim.

I am taking a holistic approach here and thus only focusing on religion, but you can break it down further into where you are born, when you are born, your gender, the financial status of your family, whether your parents are happily married or divorced etc.

You do not have a say in any of this but yet they greatly impact your so-called freewill and the choices you make in life.

For example, a person born in a poor family is more likely to become a thief compared to a person born with a golden spoon. Again, how much of his or her decision to become a thief out of free will and how much is it because of the circumstanced that he or she has been exposed to?

The more I delve into this topic, the more I realize that free will is nothing but an illusion. We are living in a movie or a tv series, whichever you prefer. Allah SWT wrote the script and directed it, and we along with the other actors (people in our lives) are simply acting it out not knowing what is coming next.

It is important for us to believe in the illusion of freewill because it motives us to do things. If we know that everything has been determined for us already, we will not do anything because we will eventually meet our fate anyway.

The illusion of freewill is necessary for us because it helps us take action. We like to believe that we are in control of our lives and are decisions shape the future.

POTW.
Admins [MENTION=93712]MenInG[/MENTION]

 

[last_knight]

But if we don't choose our actions, how can we be held accountable for them? The whole concept of morality collapses if we believe that free will is an illusion.

Accountability is in accord to one's level of knowledge and resources. Classical example is Punishment of Adultery ; different for married,unmarried, slave or a minor.

Even, supposedly, in the absence of free will, one can't/shouldn't ignore the good or bad impact of his/her acts. If one continue repeating one bad act again and again, he/she becomes accountable. If one knew it's bad impact already before committing an act, he/she becomes accountable on first time offence.

 

[Devilsadvokat]

But if we don't choose our actions, how can we be held accountable for them? The whole concept of morality collapses if we believe that free will is an illusion.

No it doesn't, criminals still will be punished. Everything remains the same in Earth. Of course if you are talking about the hereafter then yes that fairy story that justice and/or mercy will be served is just that, a fairy story.

Life's not meant to be fair I am afraid.

 

[Mamoon]

Can't argue with your point about the need for accountability to maintain order in society but I'm not just talking about accountability in this world but in the hereafter too. How can people be punished for their sins or rewarded for their good deeds if they had no control over their actions at all?

I'm in the same boat as you when it comes to struggling with this question for quite some time but I think there has to be more to it. From a logical point of view, the idea of determinism sounds the most plausible to me but it's definitely not compatible with my faith.

I agree that it is not compatible with the widespread belief. God is omnipotent and has knowledge of everything, but He does not impose any decisions/choices on you. You are free to do what you want, and you will have to face the consequences after you die. This is of course the general viewpoint of believers, but the problem with this freedom of choice are the different circumstances people are subjected to.

In my opinion, freewill can only work if it is a level playing field. You cannot judge and compare the morality of a person born to a billionaire to a person born to a homeless family. Then there is the issue of people who are chosen as God's men and people who are chosen to be doomed.

Why were those particular 124,000 souls chosen to be the carrier's of God's message? It could have been any other soul, but He chose the privilege for those particular souls even though they did not ask for it. Believing in free will leaves us with so many questions and it makes you realise how unjust all of this really is, and in the end when we do not have an answer, we cop-out by saying that "Allah SWT knows best".

 

[Musakhel]

I agree that it is not compatible with the widespread belief. God is omnipotent and has knowledge of everything, but He does not impose any decisions/choices on you. You are free to do what you want, and you will have to face the consequences after you die. This is of course the general viewpoint of believers, but the problem with this freedom of choice are the different circumstances people are subjected to.

In my opinion, freewill can only work if it is a level playing field. You cannot judge and compare the morality of a person born to a billionaire to a person born to a homeless family. Then there is the issue of people who are chosen as God's men and people who are chosen to be doomed.

Why were those particular 124,000 souls chosen to be the carrier's of God's message? It could have been any other soul, but He chose the privilege for those particular souls even though they did not ask for it. Believing in free will leaves us with so many questions and it makes you realise how unjust all of this really is, and in the end when we do not have an answer, we cop-out by saying that "Allah SWT knows best".

I have mentioned it elsewhere, but it is useful to recount the debate between Al-Qadi `Abdul Jabbaar of the Mu`tazilite sect, and the great Imam of the Sunnis of the time, Abu Ishaq Al-Isfaraayini . When the two met, `AbdulJabbaar said, “Exalted is Allah, who transcends the obscene.” (While this is a sound expression, what he meant to say was that Allah does not create evil. This is blasphemous, because Muslims must believe that Allah is the only creator, as it is stated in the Quran that He created everything, and that no one wills anything except by His Will.)

Imam Al- Isfaraayini (418 AH) realized what he had implied and responded, “Exalted is Allah, who nothing happens in His dominion but by His Will.” The Mu`tazilite then made another attempt and said, “Does our Lord like to be disobeyed?” Al-Isfaraayini quickly replied, “Could He be disobeyed against His Will?” Upon that `Abdul Jabbaar tried again to defeat his adversary and said, “If God denied me guidance, then ruled that I be destroyed for it, has He treated me fairly?” Al-Isfaraayini calmly answered, “If He denied you something that was yours, then He would have been unfair, but if it was not rightfully yours, then Allah does with His creation what He wills.” `Abdul Jabbaar fell silent, and could not argue further. After all, Allah is the true owner of all creation. (V.4/ P. 261-262. Tabaqaat-al-Shafi`iyyat-al-Kubra).

 

[Robert]

You seem as if you want to dispute it. Most likely because it does seem we have a choice. There is some dessert in the fridge, I have been thinking about having a few spoonfuls for the past few minutes, having a conversation with my brain or mind, wonder who will win.

Neither will win as your neurology will only allow one answer. There has only ever been one outcome possible.

I do want to dispute it as I don’t like it. But perhaps not liking it is the only outcome possible too.

 

[James]

We cannot be 'free' in a fundamental sense, ie free from cause and effect, because freedom from cause and effect would mean random. If you make a choice for no reason, that means you have just made a random choice. And random choice is not free either.

I agree. Determinism makes much more sense as an idea than free will.

 

[James]

Another view: (“Compatiblism”) -

‘Life is like a game of cards. The hand you are dealt is determinism; the way you play it is free will.’
- Jawaharlal Nehru.

 

[Devilsadvokat]

Another view: (“Compatiblism”) -

‘Life is like a game of cards. The hand you are dealt is determinism; the way you play it is free will.’
- Jawaharlal Nehru.

And I thought that I had thought of that, nothing stopping different people coming to the same conclusion independent each other.

What if your dealt a good hand and play it badly through no fault of your own, back to no free will.

 

[Devilsadvokat]

And I thought that I had thought of that, nothing stopping different people coming to the same conclusion independent each other.

What if your dealt a good hand and play it badly through no fault of your own, back to no free will.

Like an unseen force forces ones hand...

The fact that I compared myself to Nehru is just my hypomania on display, please excuse it.

 

[Devilsadvokat]

This debate over too, there is no free will, just an illusion of.

 

[Mages]

This debate over too, there is no free will, just an illusion of.

Great. Now you don't have to feel guilty of sleeping around too. Good night.

...Allah has written for Adam's son his share of adultery which he commits inevitably...

 

[Devilsadvokat]

Great. Now you don't have to feel guilty of sleeping around too. Good night.

...Allah has written for Adam's son his share of adultery which he commits inevitably...

Well what if I used that excuse for my penchant for robbing little old ladies of their pension for the week? I can't really excuse any behaviour.