Itachi
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The alternative is communism. And we all know what communism leads to.
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Contact the PP Team
Is India Broke?
- Thread starter KingKhanWC
- Start date
The alternative is communism. And we all know what communism leads to.
IAJ
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How will millions die if India have so much money as some are suggesting here. Close the country and use the money to give the poor people food and medicines, can’t be that difficult?
The Indian government has a variety of programs for the poor, but they are obviously fewer than what you will see in Western countries. As for the current situation, if the government could spend $100 billion to get the country out of the current spike, it would. Not saying the government is doing everything possible, but in times like this simply spending money cannot make the problem go away.
Because they are tying to help people. And it is also good publicity for stars. Their actions doesn't mean the government is broke. It should be obvious it isn't given its forex reserves.
The last time the Indian government came close to being broke was back in June 1991, when it had forex reserves of $0.6B (about $1.2B today) only enough to pay for 3 weeks of imports.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1991_Indian_economic_crisis
The difference between 1991 and 2021 is that India's forex reserves have increased from $1.2B to $584B. Anyone who thinks India is broke in 2021 is just deluding himself.
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IAJ
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That is not what the media is reporting here in Norway at least. It says India have asked for aid and the Norwegian gov are giving NOK 20 millions ( USD 2,4 millions). Don’t know if that is symbolic but when they also write that the poor people in India are really struggling, you really don’t know what to believe. If this ‘little’ amount can save even one person it should not be seem as symbolic, otherwise the human life has little value there.
India has 30% people living below poverty. Out of which I would say that 10% are dirt poor. That will make about 13 crore people who cannot eat without having to work everyday. Just because india has 3 trillion economy does not mean that those 13 crore people will be given free money.
Population is a huge factor. India is not a socialist country though it allows several socialistic schemes for votes.
I don't think anyone is claiming that India is a perfectly egalitarian society in which the government with hundreds of billions in the bank would spend that money on the poor.
India is just a democracy, similar to other democracies. If the people reward the politicians for taking care of the poor, then the government will spend the money. There are many millions of Indians who live in abject poverty while the government sits on hundreds of billions of dollars of forex.
India has many programs to provide free or low cost food to the poor, but it can do more.
Nothing special about BJP, the situation was the same with the Congress.
The US spends trillions on defense and other useless programs (a trillion dollar bailout to financial institutions and favored businesses) while also have half a million homeless.
https://endhomelessness.org/homeles...tatistics/state-of-homelessness-report-legacy
Democracies are not perfect, but they are usually better than the alternatives, especially in the longer run.
Itachi
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People here believe that giving hand outs will magically sort all the poverty issues in the world, no one will be poor and the whole world will be another heaven. This is the same dream that Stalin emphasised on. This is the same dream that the Soviets tried to portray.....
What happened next is for everyone to see.
How do you know Canada didn’t pay the market price? Where’s the proof?
Also India didnt invent any vaccine of its own (atleast none that’s desirable abroad).. So all its doing is to do some “Contract Manufacturing” for Western Pharma companies like Astra Zeneca. As a “labourer” you dont have the negotiating rights over the Product. India does not (and Can not) negotiate a price of these vaccines.
I don't get these Scandinavians. I understand they like to feel they are doing good, but surely they understand numbers.
You say the Norwegian media reported that Norway gave $2.4 million. Get a perspective. Norways "oil fund" has over $1 trillion.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Government_Pension_Fund_of_Norway
Giving $2.4 million is equivalent to someone who has $1 million in the bank giving $2.40 as aid. If I had $1 million and gave only $2.40, I would be embarrassed to talk about it rather than going to the media and publicizing it.
Not that the $2.4 million makes any difference to India as a whole given its forex reserves situation (not the few Indians who benefit but the country as a whole).
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Covaxin - will probably end up as one of the most sold corona vaccines.
You keep on bragging about india’s 1 million in the bank. If that’s so, why is not being spent on millions of ordinary indians dying on the roads?
Why dont we see India building more hospitals and facilities like China did?
1. Canada didn't pay market price because there was no market. A market price exists when consumers can go out and pay money to buy something, which they could not do with the vaccine. While lacking a market price, we do have an idea how much consumers would be willing to pay if they had the option to buy.
2. The value of the vaccine to consumers in the Western countries was multiple thousands of dollars. My wife and I would have spent 5 figures to get the vaccine when it first became available but had to wait our turn. India exported 57 million vaccine doses to the world (not just Canada), and if you put a low market price of say $2,000 per dose, it would have been $114 billion. Total contributions to Covax which is buying vaccines mainly produced in India is less than $3.2 billion as of April 2021.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/COVAX
3. You don't understand the process of vaccine manufacture. There is a vaccine recipe and vaccine production capacity, and the scarce factor has the power. The scarce factor is vaccine production capacity.
Suppose AstraZ and Serum Institute of India could not reach a deal, who would have lost more? It would be AstraZ because it can't replace the production capacity of SII. SII can however replace Astra with a vaccine recipe from Sputnik or Bharat Biotech or J&J or Baylor College of Medicine (which is collaborating with the Indian firm Biological E) etc.
Also, Astra can sign all the contracts it wants, but the Indian government has final say about approving export of vaccines manufactured in India.
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Not good enough and not fully approved either. Hence India itself is not using it at scale.
From an Indian news source:
https://www.businessinsider.in/scie...-ready-for-approvals/articleshow/80100116.cms
No western government (incl. Canada) is queueing up for this Covaxin.
Now you are making things up to justify your clumsy statements. Of course there is “always” a market and of course the “Product owner” has the right for negotiating its product (and not the labourer).
If that wasn’t the case, India would immediately put a hold on all Covid vaccines produced in India until and unless all Indians are vaccinated first.
Answered in post #168 above.
Better efficacy than AstraZeneca (70% vs 78%)
Phase 3 result: https://www.bharatbiotech.com/images/press/covaxin-phase3-efficacy-results.pdf
Review (from Dr. Fauci):
"COVAXIN found to neutralize the 617 variant of virus, says NIAID Director and Chief Medical Advisor to the President, Dr. Anthony Fauci"
https://ocugen.com/news/covaxin-fou...al-advisor-to-the-president-dr-anthony-fauci/
Western countries: They will probably take western ones since they are further ahead in production and their western prejudice.
Western Prejudice? Lol
If it really was that good, India itself would be producing it in mass volumes (using that 500 million forex reserves that your buddy is harping on about)
Pray tell me where this market exists? I have many American friends who are still willing to pay thousands of dollars to get the vaccine.
Sorry, but your ideas about "product owner" and "labourer" are funny. This is basic business/economics. There is a manufacturer with production capacity and an IP owner. There are multiple sources of IP, so the scarce factor (the production capacity) has the power. Also, the government of the country where the product is being produced has ultimate say in such a valuable product (this is not consumer electronics).
India indeed has delayed export of the Covishield vaccine produced by SII. It is deciding how many doses will be used for vaccinations locally and how many will be exported. Astra has no say in this matter.
Read the following articles to understand who makes the decisions regarding where the vaccine doses will go, the Indian government or Astra.
"So far, Covax has delivered 43.4 million doses to 119 countries, but this represents only about 2 percent of the two billion doses it hopes to deliver this year, according to Andrea Taylor, an assistant director at the Duke Global Health Innovation Center. “The export controls from India are the primary constraint on Covax current supply,” she wrote in an email."
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/04/24/world/africa/africa-india-vaccine-threat.html
"India has put a temporary hold on all major exports of the AstraZeneca coronavirus shot made by the Serum Institute of India (SII), the world’s biggest vaccine-maker, to meet domestic demand as infections rise, two sources told Reuters."
https://www.reuters.com/article/hea...zeneca-shot-as-infections-surge-idUSKBN2BG27D
My last post had already explained this issue. You need to post something rational if you expect any replies.
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The Bharat Biotech vaccine Covaxin was initially pushed through without phase 3 trials, hence articles like the following one back in early January:
https://www.businessinsider.in/scie...-ready-for-approvals/articleshow/80100116.cms
Since then it has been found to be effective as the article you linked to says.
Ahmad-GERMANFC
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Isn’t Kerala one of the best performing states in India in terms of covid. And isn’t it communist govt?
That will be the case. It just completed phase 3 few weeks ago.
I would personally prefer covaxin over covidshield knowing about both of them now.
Other than Astra Zeneca’s Covshield and Bharat Bio-tech’s Covaxin, no other major vaccine is manufactured in India.
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-india-55571793
Even Astra Zeneca’s covshield is a dubious one, as recently blocked in many countries. Therefore India doesn’t really matter in terms of global supply chain of Covid vaccines. Its a major pandemic drug, so consumers have high expectations towards quality standards.
Instead India itself is trying to import western covid vaccines in high volumes (as per the BBC article above).
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-india-55571793
Even Astra Zeneca’s covshield is a dubious one, as recently blocked in many countries. Therefore India doesn’t really matter in terms of global supply chain of Covid vaccines. Its a major pandemic drug, so consumers have high expectations towards quality standards.
Instead India itself is trying to import western covid vaccines in high volumes (as per the BBC article above).
India importing is due to production delays due to US restrictions on vaccine equipment and ingredients.
Seems like you forgot about the covaxin results in previous posts. Its a very good vaccine.
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I hope that’s the case and wish the poor Indian public get a reprieve from it. Though the question that comes to mind is, if it really is that good:
- Why is it not produced in a much higher volume?
- Why is Indian government itself not investing in mass production of this covaxin? Instead they are trying to buy Sputnik from Russia.
- Why no western countries trying to get hold of it? (The west did infact put a block on J&J and Astra Zeneca’s vaccines. So the quality standards are high).
I live in a western country and ve never heard of this covaxin mentioned anywhere in the media.
Technics 1210
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Remarkable that Indians living in USA, after fleeing India, are fabricating information in an attempt to quell India's reality. Must be pretty bad.
India doesn't have the money it proclaims to have proven by the fact India is begging for money from the international community.
Remember, Indian government faked GDP numbers a few years ago and their fallacious economy has been struggling for a number of years now.
GDP/Capita is not far off from its neighbouring countries, further proving India has not advanced much at all.
No money for hospitals, roads, schools etc, but cash on the hip for statues, and a mission to Mars.
India has been brought back down to earth, clearly.
India doesn't have the money it proclaims to have proven by the fact India is begging for money from the international community.
Remember, Indian government faked GDP numbers a few years ago and their fallacious economy has been struggling for a number of years now.
GDP/Capita is not far off from its neighbouring countries, further proving India has not advanced much at all.
No money for hospitals, roads, schools etc, but cash on the hip for statues, and a mission to Mars.
India has been brought back down to earth, clearly.
Sorry to say but this just sounds like a lame excuse.
Colorblind Genius
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Probably true.
This notion could have a great impact.
In general, I don’t think rich, wealthy and upper class Hinduz are known to be big in charity.
May be there are a couple of exceptions but the general notion is the same, “Chamri jaey, par damri na jaey”
I think, some of them may donate heavily to some mandir of their choice but for welfare of general public (Muslims, Christians and lower class Hinduz) they don’t care much.
Again, you did not watch the video link.
Try this:
The link below explains sources (mostly western countries) of these materials:
https://indianexpress.com/article/e...-covovax-production-covid-19-vaccine-7280711/
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I happen to work in the industry and know very well about the drug manufacturing process. Question i asked was specific to India’s covaxin.
And if that cannot be produced indigenously or India is unable to source the Active ingredients from alternative sources, than it isn’t much different to a “Contract Manufacturing” product anyway.
Therefore its not really a contender for any large scale vaccination programme in India itself.
Bags, filters, cell culture media & microcarriers are peripheral to the vaccine formula. Your opinions seem to be condescending and prejudiced to call it contract manufacturing for someone with knowledge of the industry.
Itachi
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Does kerala follow any communist policies?
Just because there's a communist govt in a state doesn't mean that state follows communist principles. Once it does, it will be broken.
Itachi
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If you compare active ingredients with contract manufacturing, I am surprised to see such knowledge coming from a person who claims to be from the drugs manufacturing.
Even a second year pharmaceutical student (forget about medical ones) knows the difference.
Because:
1) you have no control over the start date or the volume you can produce without acquiring the API.
2) Its more critical for the Bio-tech drugs like vaccines because the Active ingredient (API) is a “grown biological molecule”, which cannot be easily substituted from an alternative supplier.
Now you can do 1+1 yourself.
Ahmad-GERMANFC
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I don’t know enough about the ins and outs of random Indian states but they call themselves a communist ruled state so I’ll take them on their word. Plus if you’re getting into semantics I doubt any state or country is purely communist.
Covaxin has no API dependency from outside.
Ahmad-GERMANFC
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What?!?! Tell those friends to not waste their money and register on the official website and get the vaccine for free. US is literally handing them out for free right now. How stupid are these friends
Mamoon
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Actually, this is incorrect.
Giving out $2.4 million when you $1 trillion in the bank is not comparable to giving out $2.40 when you have $1 million in the bank.
Simply because a lot can be done with $2.4 million while nothing can be done with $2.40.
$2.4 million is a very handsome amount and is roughly equivalent to ₹18 crore, which is enough money to help thousands of destitute families in multiple ways.
Indians should be more grateful because there was no diplomatic pressure on Norway to donate money and it is an example of kindness.
OMB
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Indians are grateful.
At least those who benefit from this donations.
the OP has got the title wrong which is the cause of consternation Is India Broke? You tell
At least those who benefit from this donations.
the OP has got the title wrong which is the cause of consternation Is India Broke? You tell
OMB
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also beware of which NGO you send money to lol.
I will be sorry to see your money go down the drain.
I will be sorry to see your money go down the drain.
Obviously when we are talking about countries with trillion dollar sovereign wealth funds, it is very different from individuals.
It was an analogy. Yes, $2.4 million can help many people, but for a country of India's size with 1,300 million people it doesn't make a difference.
My point was that if Norway gave say, 2% of sovereign wealth fund (about $20 billion) then it would have something to talk about. Giving 0.00024% of your wealth, and then going and announcing it to the media seems crass.
Scandinavian countries have the pressure of maintaining their moral superiority in their own eyes.
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Ridiculous suggestion that any nation should give away 2 percent of its wealth to one nation.
The U.N pact for foreign aid target for the top 30 countries is 0.7 percent of Gross National Income which is meant for all countries.
cricketjoshila
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India is one of the few countries that has its own vaccine. Its called Covaxin and has 78 per cent efficacy.
Canadian PM called up Modi to get doses for Canada.
You still haven't learned the difference between license manufacturing and contract manufacturing.
I know its difficult for people who think stitching balls for adidas is a big achievement.
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OMB
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No comparisons to drag Pakistan into this. Stay true to the topic.
That Covaxin has been discussed above. Read and bring some new argument to the discussion.
Hollow chest thumping is of no interest to anyone here.
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So much so for Canadian PM calling Modi. Typical indian pheku...
“Canada’s Trudeau Dials Modi, But Their Versions of the Call Differ”
https://www.thequint.com/news/world...d-19-vaccines-to-canada-pm-modi-to-pm-trudeau
cricketjoshila
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Best performing? Its the 2nd worst.
Itachi
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He was talking about the first wave I am supposing.
cricketjoshila
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Get a better source than third rate websites.
https://www.google.co.in/amp/s/mobile.reuters.com/article/amp/idUSKBN2AB03Z
It may be ridiculous to you and the UN, but to me if someone is going to go around publicizing a donation, it should be at least around 2% of their wealth.
Anyway, even if we go by your numbers, Norway's GDP is $400B, and 0.7% is $2.8B, whereas $2.4M is less than 0.1% of that amount.
The point is that a number $2.4M is a trifling amount for both Norway and India (entire countries and not a few people in those countries), and broadcasting it as "Norway gives aid to India" is stupid.
cricketjoshila
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First learn the difference between Contract and license manufacturing.
Not everyone functions as labourers to stitch footballs.
Itachi
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It's a "communist party" ruled state. States can not have a different structure than defined by Indian consitution.
Pre 1991, it was socialism which was more prevalent but it lead to verge of bankruptcy of Indian Economy. Then MM Singh saved India by instrouding various elements of capitalism.
Communinst is an idelogy that will be always good in papers only. A fact which most people here fails to understand.
Cpt. Rishwat
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The alternative isn't communism. In Britain the govt stepped in with furlough schemes to allow businesses and industry to stay afloat during the height of the epidemic, that is an example of direct govt intervention. While capitalist ideology drives the economy, some social constricts hold it in check, and it is these checks which ensure European nations for the most part still provide the best standard of living for their citizens.
Your article is proving the same point i.e. No where did Traudeau asked for Indian Covaxin!
All he said was that:
Trudeau and Modi talked“ about India's significant efforts in promoting vaccine production and supply, which have provided vital support to countries around the world,"
This is NOT the same thing which you were trying to claim.
As for license manufacturing vs Contract manufacturing. There is no real difference, you dont own the ip rights/patent and are dependant on the ‘actual owner’ for the recipe and APIs. Now that you ve run out of valid arguments you are resorting to ‘Kuch bhi challay ga’.
A Chaprasi remains a chaprasi, no matter which topi you try to put on his head.
You know India’s ‘real place’ in the global Covid vaccine Supply chain. Hence are throwing your toys out of pram now
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Stewie
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This a terrible and pointless thread. We are facing tragedies of humongous proportions a d people are busy trying to political point score against their rivals.
We are all humans, show some humanity, what if they are broke? Does that somehow make you feel better? If it does, shame on you! You can’t put a price on human lives.
We are all humans, show some humanity, what if they are broke? Does that somehow make you feel better? If it does, shame on you! You can’t put a price on human lives.
The thread is discussing the 2 faced hypocritical approach of Indian government and some of its bhakts on the internet.
Where is it demeaning the suffering of ordinary Indians?
And why exactly do you think that these 2 separate topics can’t be discussed individually?
Cpt. Rishwat
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Well there is a significant point being made, even if it comes across as heartless. There are claims being made that India has forex reserves of $600 billion. So I think it is legitimate to ask - assuming this is true - why India has not spent more on infrastructure and facilities to deal with a crisis such as is unfolding.
Obviously a Pandemic is not easy for any nation to cope with, but there does seem to be an underlying callous attitude in India itself towards lower rungs of society. It almost seems that it's considered these lives are expendable rather than waste money on the masses.
cricketjoshila
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He asked for made in India Covishield.
Vaccines manufactured by SII are its property. Vaccines manufactured in India can only be exported if government allows.
So Canada took India's help.
A licensed manufacturer is free to make and sell the product a contract manufacturer is not.
Chaprasi thinks all its neighbours are chaprasi. Doesn't matter. His neighbour can be a industrialist too.
I know its difficult for you to understand.
cricketjoshila
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You know India’s ‘real place’ in the global Covid vaccine Supply chain. Hence are throwing your toys out of pram now
Yes India makes the most vaccines in the world while our neighbours stand in line to get some.
1) Before you were implying that “Canada asked for India’s Covaxin”, which is NOT the case. So good that you stand corrected on this.
2) Vaccines made by SII are not its property because its just a labour provider. Government of india can try to put a ban on its export but it will see legal challenges. The world is not much interested in the dubious Astra Zeneca vaccine and india itself is in a dire state, otherwise there would ve been more escalations on this by now.
Canada did a trade transaction “with AZ” and thanked india for playing its part. You are again twisting words to fit your narrative. They did not buy India’s Covaxin.
Lastly, even though there is no real difference b/w the License Manufacturer and Contract Manufacturer in this context (as explained above).
What exactly is the proof of your claim that India is a License Manufacturer for Astra Zeneca?
Itachi
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Good for you. Appreciate what you are getting and live life to the fullest.
cricket4all
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I don’t understand why anytime someone gives an opinion on India (as required by this thread) then some posters get over defensive and try to counter act by mentioning Pakistan?
People aren’t here to have digs at India but your going to get response and opinion from Pakistani or pro Pakistani people as it’s after all a Pakistani forum.
If you don’t like the opinions because they are mainly from a Pakistani point of view and are over sensitive when an opinion on India is given then your on the wrong forum.
People aren’t here to have digs at India but your going to get response and opinion from Pakistani or pro Pakistani people as it’s after all a Pakistani forum.
If you don’t like the opinions because they are mainly from a Pakistani point of view and are over sensitive when an opinion on India is given then your on the wrong forum.
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First of all - It is a fact that India has a problem with it's medical infrastructure - which is shameful as they had more than a year to plan this out
Secondly - saying India has a problem and is now depending on foreigners to help does not constitute some sort of national shame for India.
Secondly - saying India has a problem and is now depending on foreigners to help does not constitute some sort of national shame for India.
Ahmad-GERMANFC
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Agreed. Nothing wrong with india accepting chanda in this time of grave trouble. Good to see World coming together
I don’t understand why Indians are getting so embarrassed and ashamed.
cricket4all
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Everyone should be united in fighting and helping to stop spread of covid-19. This should be about humanity and not about any country v another. No country is perfect and can always improve and there is nothing wrong with asking for help
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cricket4all
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Pakistan India border was opened recently for a bit to allow ambulances and medical supplies go to India. I have seen a video of this but nothing official is obviously going to get reported. It’s a good gesture and good for countries to help each other.
There is nothing wrong with asking and taking help from each other. India can and should take help from Pakistan if they need to and Pakistan can get help from India too. We should see above politics, conflicts and prejudices as we are all in it together against the virus. Humanity first. No country becomes less or pride dented if help is taken. Egos, arrogance and hate has no room here and should be left out.
OMB
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Exactly my thoughts.
tbh there is a fair bit of gloating going on in other threads and maybe the angst from fellow Indian posters has carried over to this thread. Not condoning it but see it for what it is.
On the whole, the Indians are very thankful really for the help they are getting from all countries.
Regardless of the fact that it had previously helped or not helped those nations and notwithstanding the good or bad foreign relations, humanitarian assistance is always appreciated and should not be mocked upon by Indians (I will add now pakistanis too).
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Stop dragging Pakistan into this conversation.
Have deleted lots of posts now.
Stick to discussion about India .
Have deleted lots of posts now.
Stick to discussion about India .
Third_Umpire
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Because they have spent so long and so much effort to build a false narrative of shining India. Particularly the online trolls. Now it has all come crashing down in a heartbeat, in the most embarrassing way, and with their supreme leader being reduced to what he is, a mass murderer.
Those of us who have been to India are not surprised one bit. The infrastructure their is comparable to Bangladesh, specially for the majority of the population that lives at or below the poverty line.
Itachi
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stick to subject of the thread that is related to covid. there are lots of different threads in which you can post above. otherwise your post adds nothing to the subject.
Cpt. Rishwat
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Actually what he posted is very relevant. India's infrastructure being comparable to Bangladesh is one of the reasons they have had difficulty coping. Forex reserves of $600 billion aren't much use sitting in the bank when a pandemic is laying waste to the population.
Technics 1210
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India doesn't have $600 B, it probably has $60 B in reserves. The reserves were questioned by international finance institutions, when India was caught lying about its GDP numbers. This is why India's mission to Mars was a front to give the impression India is making strides, it is not.
Still, even if we grant the figure of $600 Billion, that is still less than 50 cents per Indian. 50 cents doesn't even buy you an ice cream in India, let alone medicine - hence India is begging for money.
cricketjoshila
Test Captain
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So US UK etc all depended on foreigners for help during the pandemic? Or is this reserved for Indians only?
Romali_rotti
Senior ODI Player
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You are completely wrong Miggy.. You cannot plan for a better outcome when you are talking about a 3rd world country with 1.4 billion population. No government could have done anything, could they have delayed the inevitable ? possibly, but there was no stopping this catastrophe.
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Did the US ask for ventilators, oxygen etc as aid - they bought what they had to etc
And once again - stop being so defensive about this.
Everything about India doesnt have to be answered with a counter question about "what about the other country" - seems a little pointless and childish.
Technics 1210
Test Debutant
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India should first appeal to OCIs, but unfortunately the majority of them fled India for a better life (seems they made the right choice). Perhaps this is an opportunity for GoI to recognise OCIs as bonafide Indians.
Radio stations are running appeals for £50 donations to buy oxygen cylinders, and callers are quick to point out they rather send money to Africa for water pumps in local villages given India is meant to be some upcoming economical miracle.
Radio stations are running appeals for £50 donations to buy oxygen cylinders, and callers are quick to point out they rather send money to Africa for water pumps in local villages given India is meant to be some upcoming economical miracle.
Itachi
Test Debutant
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Its irrelevant because the shortage of oxygen is due to logistic and short sightedness of state govt. No amount of money can resolve that.
cricketjoshila
Test Captain
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Show me one announcement from the government that says they need aid.
With a forex of 580bn and economy of 3tn, India isnt in the need of aid. Rather it gives aid to many countries.
Many countries acknowledged that India helped them and now they are helping India.
India supplied vaccines to 95 countries.
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