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Is Ishant Sharma better than Mohammad Amir post-comeback?

big_gamer007

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Since 2016 -

Ishant Averages 26 in test matches home and away.
Amir averages 33 in test matches home and away.


Purely talking about Amir since his comeback he has been worse than Ishant Sharma.

Drop catches occur on Ishants bowling as well before people start giving that excuse.

Talking of test matches only.

So is Ishant Sharma currently better than any pakistani test bowler barring maybe Abbas?
[MENTION=131701]Mamoon[/MENTION]
 
Not if you count the catches that were dropped off Amir's bowling or how he set up the batsmen which gives others a chance to strike.
 
Amir is a victim of the hype of his fans. On this forum i saw people calling him better than Wasim Akram.

He is a good bowler. But thats it.
 
This is the best I have seen Ishant bowl in 10 years. Perfect bowling, especially to left-handers.
 
I want to see how they fare when you take UAE tests out of the comparison because those pitches are a graveyard for pace bowling and Ishant hasn't bowled in those conditions.

Also I would say Amir after SA the tour would give us a better idea where he stands. But if I had to pick one Ishant edges it for me, he isn't the bowler who used to average 37. Amir on the other hand struggles whenever he bowls with the kookaburra in red ball cricket.
 
Amir is going through a bad run in red ball cricket.

But respect to Ishant. The change in his bowling and attitude is clearly visible.
 
I want to see how they fare when you take UAE tests out of the comparison because those pitches are a graveyard for pace bowling and Ishant hasn't bowled in those conditions.

Also I would say Amir after SA the tour would give us a better idea where he stands. But if I had to pick one Ishant edges it for me, he isn't the bowler who used to average 37. Amir on the other hand struggles whenever he bowls with the kookaburra in red ball cricket.


Well Ishant bowls in India and Indian pitches aren't any good for fast bowlers as well. So the home grounds for both bowlers are bad for fast bowling and it negates the disadvantage Amir has on other bowlers from SA/NZ/Eng/Aus.
 
What I think is Amir needs a County season. It gave new life to Zaheer Khan and seems to give new life to Ishant Sharma so ideally Amir should also go and have 1-2 seasons in county if he is not doing it already.
 
Amir is a victim of the hype of his fans. On this forum i saw people calling him better than Wasim Akram.

He is a good bowler. But thats it.

Since his comeback in test matches he hasn't been even good. He has been below par. The only reason is he isn't made fun of like Indian bowlers who performed poorly (eg Ishant, Prasad, Prabhakar, Kuruvilla, Mohanty etc etc) is that Amir had a great series pre ban against Aus and Eng in seaming conditions. Second reason is he is Pakistani had he been Indian post ban Amir would be ridiculed like Indian pacers get on these forums.
 
Imagine if Ishant got banned for 5 years after his stellar effort vs Ponting in 2008 haha!
 
Amir plays all 3 formats for his side and plays every single game and I think only Rabada is the other bowler who plays almost every game for his side regularly. Definitely that takes bit of a toll and also its easier focusing on just 1 format than 3. Obviously his test match form hasnt been upto the mark but in recent UK tour showed some great improvement.

When we say class is permanent and form is temporary that is also applied to bowlers. Ishant might have better stats in tests for couple of years but, still if you ask any cricket expert who is better everyone will say Amir. Why? Because of not what he isnt doing but what he can do. Amir definitely needs to work on his consistency impactful performances but he can definitely do that. Also he was absent for 5 years and its never easy to comeback.

If we are comparing Ishant’s best form in life with Amir’s struggles than that itself tells you the gulf of difference in the class.
 
Amir plays all 3 formats for his side and plays every single game and I think only Rabada is the other bowler who plays almost every game for his side regularly.

Now that is certainly not true.

Bumrah
Bhuvi
Cummins
M Marsh - to an extent
Woakes
Stokes
Boult
Southie
Holder

I'm sure I'm missing out a few more.
 
Amir plays all 3 formats for his side and plays every single game and I think only Rabada is the other bowler who plays almost every game for his side regularly. Definitely that takes bit of a toll and also its easier focusing on just 1 format than 3. Obviously his test match form hasnt been upto the mark but in recent UK tour showed some great improvement.

When we say class is permanent and form is temporary that is also applied to bowlers. Ishant might have better stats in tests for couple of years but, still if you ask any cricket expert who is better everyone will say Amir. Why? Because of not what he isnt doing but what he can do. Amir definitely needs to work on his consistency impactful performances but he can definitely do that. Also he was absent for 5 years and its never easy to comeback.

If we are comparing Ishant’s best form in life with Amir’s struggles than that itself tells you the gulf of difference in the class.

Amir has been hyped up by his 2009/10 performances. That was brilliant bowling no doubt albeit in seamer friendly conditions. However, if you take those performances out Amir has not done much in test matches.

We are talking about last 3 1/2 years and not 1 year or so and fact is Ishant has been better than Amir by a long distance in Test matches. What Amir can do is irrelevant when he starts doing it and does it consistently then I will be first person to say Amir is better bowler than Ishant or anyone else. But as of right now Amir is well behind Ishant in test matches.

Playing 3 formats - It is PCB and Amir's fault if his body can't cope up with the work load then it is up to them to decide which format/matches he should be playing. IMO Amir does not need to play on dead UAE tracks, but this can;t be used as an excuse for being poor in Test cricket it is something Amir and PCB can control by reducing his workload.

Amir's best is definitely better than Ishant's best however Kambli's best has been better than any batsmen from pakistan or Nasir Jamshed/Imran Nazirs best has been better than some other players that does not mean they are any good. End of the day consistency matters the most which Amir does not have in test cricket.
 
Well Ishant bowls in India and Indian pitches aren't any good for fast bowlers as well. So the home grounds for both bowlers are bad for fast bowling and it negates the disadvantage Amir has on other bowlers from SA/NZ/Eng/Aus.

I agree with that but UAE is another level of docile! At least in India there is a bit more bounce especially in Mumbai, Kolkata, Dharmsala and etc and the SG ball is the most potent reverse swinging ball as it can utilised much sooner than the duke or kookaburra - after 15-20 overs or so. In addition there is more swing during India's home season as well. Not saying India are seamer friendly wickets but if you compare it to the desert which are the slowest pitches in the world, then you'll see there is a significant disparity for the constraints seam bowlers are having to deal with.
 
I agree with that but UAE is another level of docile! At least in India there is a bit more bounce especially in Mumbai, Kolkata, Dharmsala and etc and the SG ball is the most potent reverse swinging ball as it can utilised much sooner than the duke or kookaburra - after 15-20 overs or so. In addition there is more swing during India's home season as well. Not saying India are seamer friendly wickets but if you compare it to the desert which are the slowest pitches in the world, then you'll see there is a significant disparity for the constraints seam bowlers are having to deal with.


Well I have not watched test matches in UAE so I can;t be sure but from what I have read here over the years Wahab used to get plenty of reverse swing on UAE tracks so maybe Amir can to if he learns the skills from Wahab and actually puts in the hard work.

Pakistan should go back to playing in england for home matches, english conditions suit them perfectly. Costs would be higher no doubt but gate sales and advertisement revenue should also be higher so I would assume they will not lose much.
 
I think the best thing to say here is that in terms of success, it's Ishant comfortably. In terms of skill-set and capabilities as a fast bowler, it's Amir.
 
Overall, both are quite mediocre, but Ishant has been very good for a while now. Even his body language has been far more aggressive in the last 2 years, and that has certainly played a part in the turnaround.
 
I think the best thing to say here is that in terms of success, it's Ishant comfortably. In terms of skill-set and capabilities as a fast bowler, it's Amir.


How high will you rate "Consistency" in your list?

Amir shows his skill set once in 8 years how is he a better fast bowler than someone who has been consistent in last 3 1/2 years?

It's like McGrath vs Wasim, McGrath skill was consistency while Wasim was highly skillfull, some rate McGrath as better than Wasim some say Wasim is better. However these two bowlers both had one thing in common: They both had a stellar record.

Here the case is different Amir has a crap record so there should not be any doubt who the better fast bowler is.

If Amir improves from here on like Sharma has done in last 4 years then maybe but for now Amir is a worse fast bowler than Sharma in tests.
 
Overall, both are quite mediocre, but Ishant has been very good for a while now. Even his body language has been far more aggressive in the last 2 years, and that has certainly played a part in the turnaround.

Sharma has been above average since last 3 1/2 years. Slightly above mediocre IMO. Overall career he is below average, slightly worse than a mediocre bowler.
 
How high will you rate "Consistency" in your list?

Amir shows his skill set once in 8 years how is he a better fast bowler than someone who has been consistent in last 3 1/2 years?

It's like McGrath vs Wasim, McGrath skill was consistency while Wasim was highly skillfull, some rate McGrath as better than Wasim some say Wasim is better. However these two bowlers both had one thing in common: They both had a stellar record.

Here the case is different Amir has a crap record so there should not be any doubt who the better fast bowler is.

If Amir improves from here on like Sharma has done in last 4 years then maybe but for now Amir is a worse fast bowler than Sharma in tests.

Ishant has been successful because of the consistency in his bowling, not disagreeing with you there (guess I should have mentioned it earlier in my last post). Regarding Amir, all I said was he's better in terms of what he can bring to the table (if he does and I'm well aware of this issue that he has). No doubt, regardless of what your role is in the team, if you're bringing the goods, however way possible, then that's all that matters and so far Ishant has brought the goods more than Amir has.
 
Overall, both are quite mediocre, but Ishant has been very good for a while now. Even his body language has been far more aggressive in the last 2 years, and that has certainly played a part in the turnaround.

No no please don’t do the Pakistani thing of putting it down to body language and intent. Ishant has improved leaps and bounds because he has worked really really hard to stop bowling tripe. It is a remarkable investment of faith by the BCCI in a bowler who was basically a joke a few years ago.
 
In Tests, a resounding yes.

In LOI’s, it’s been Amir all the way with several impressive performances.
 
After his comeback Amir doesn't seem that interested in tests, he might cut down on it in future.
 
BCCI must tell umesh, shami and bumrah to stop playing ipl and play county cricket.
 
Imagine if Ishant got banned for 5 years after his stellar effort vs Ponting in 2008 haha!

Logic that will go over most people

A similar analogy would be Irfan Pathan picking up a career-finishing injury after a couple of years of his debut.
 
Amir is a victim of the hype of his fans. On this forum i saw people calling him better than Wasim Akram.

He is a good bowler. But thats it.

The hype was not just from his fans, pre-ban he was considered one of the hottest young fast bowlers of his generation by most world commentators. Since his comeback he has only shown patchy form, so in answer to OP, yes Ishant is currently better than Amir.
 
The hype was not just from his fans, pre-ban he was considered one of the hottest young fast bowlers of his generation by most world commentators. Since his comeback he has only shown patchy form, so in answer to OP, yes Ishant is currently better than Amir.

Those commentators read too much into that one series played in England in 2010, where the pitches and conditions were as Amazonian as they come.
 
I think Ishant has been very, very good the last couple of years. Benefitting from some red ball specialisation.

Amir has been a bit disappointing in Tests since his comeback so yes, I agree actually.
 
Those commentators read too much into that one series played in England in 2010, where the pitches and conditions were as Amazonian as they come.

Maybe. He was also outstanding in the inaugaral T20 world cup. Experienced commentators don't usually fall for the hype, he was producing pace, bounce, swing and aggression for that period, he did look a fantastic prospect. Ishant has been blowing hot for a while now, previously he was often ridiculed. Let's see if he can maintain this form ongoing.
 
Amir has had only one good test series post comeback. The windies tour.
 
What I think is Amir needs a County season. It gave new life to Zaheer Khan and seems to give new life to Ishant Sharma so ideally Amir should also go and have 1-2 seasons in county if he is not doing it already.

Amir played for Essex last season. He done well there but didn't really transfer his skills over.
 
Ishant has been successful because of the consistency in his bowling, not disagreeing with you there (guess I should have mentioned it earlier in my last post). Regarding Amir, all I said was he's better in terms of what he can bring to the table (if he does and I'm well aware of this issue that he has). No doubt, regardless of what your role is in the team, if you're bringing the goods, however way possible, then that's all that matters and so far Ishant has brought the goods more than Amir has.

Fair enough, do you think Amir should play 2 seasons of county cricket? If he is interested in becoming a top bowler he should play 2 seasons of county cricket and PCB should compensate him properly.
 
Amir played for Essex last season. He done well there but didn't really transfer his skills over.

Did he play for entire season? Or just some matches in between?

Ideally 2 seasons of full county cricket should help him a lot, that is if he wants to improve as a test bowler. If he is not interested in playing tests then that is another case
 
Did he play for entire season? Or just some matches in between?

Ideally 2 seasons of full county cricket should help him a lot, that is if he wants to improve as a test bowler. If he is not interested in playing tests then that is another case

I think he played for them the majority of the season
 
Amir is the best even if he averages 40 with the ball. His legacy is based on myth rather than actual performances.
 
Ishant took some years to be a formidable pace bowler. He is definitely better than Amir. Amir can become a good bowler also in future.Give him more time.
 
It does not take much to better Amir 2.0 in red ball cricket so nothing to jump about IMO
 
Amir always turns up when it most matters. He’s won us a t20 World Cup and the champions trophy. Watch him win us the World Cup.
 
Amir is a better bowler no doubt. Avg and stats are one thing but does not reveal everything. Based on avg even Pandya is a better bowler than Amir?? Lol
 
Both are now only above average Test bowlers (32-33 average types).

Probably will still pick Amir over Ishant as he can keep things just as tight, can nick off the lefties and additionally also get righties out lbw
 
Amir is certainly a better bowler than Ishant.

Also Amir is overrated by Pakistanis in tests.
 
That's because he is a good LOI bowler. OP asks Test Cricket.

I tuning over a small segmented period he’s been better. But Amir can extract lateral movement on a dead pitch and swing from Delhi to London on a green top. I’d take Amir every time
 
Tell the skipper to stop dropping his catches and Amir leaves him and all behind
Ishant also gets dropped catches but probably not as much as Amir.

It’s not an excuse for poor performance but something rightfully to look at.
 
Ishant also gets dropped catches but probably not as much as Amir.

It’s not an excuse for poor performance but something rightfully to look at.

It’s not poor performance. His job is to induce the false shot or edge, fielders job to catch it. He can’t do much is they don’t. He’s had around 20 dropped. If I was him I’d retire from tests, not worth breaking your back
 
I tuning over a small segmented period he’s been better. But Amir can extract lateral movement on a dead pitch and swing from Delhi to London on a green top. I’d take Amir every time

Isn't the small segmented period, more than 60% of amir's career?

Like I said earlier, amir is a better bowler than Sharma but some people overrate him massively
 
Factor in the drop catches Amir is still
Better

So you aren't arguing anymore that sample size is small but now your argument is that drop catches should be counted as wickets? This is when I have already conceded that amir is better than Ishant.
 
No Amir is still better. I am not at all a fan of this average game and that. Only thing better about Ishant now compared to before is his hair cut:sarf.
 
So why is ishant bowling averages is still in high 30 in test after playing more than 30 test?ishant should be compare to some one who play only one format" test" he should be compare to abbas who plays only test format for pakistan .poor guy is not even select for ipl so its show how much good he is.
 
Amir and Ishant are both mediocre Test bowlers. Amir is overrated due to his one series in England 8 years ago. He struggled in Australia during the same time as well. He doesn't bowl well in UAE and was very mediocre during the England Tests earlier this year. He is a good limited overs bowler. I say good only because of his spell in CT 2017 finals. If not for that he is a mediocre ODI bowler as well with an average of 30 and SR of 38. Abbas of the Test team and Hasan Ali of the ODI team are much better bowlers than Amir.

Ishant is a honest trier but again he has underachieved a lot in Tests. When he made his debut big things were expected of him but he did not deliver. He still has few years left in him. If he can do what he is doing in recent times for India, he would have done his bit.
 
Ishant is a hard working bowler who never gave up despite being a joke of a bowler a few years ago. He has natural attributes such as height working in his favour so once he got it right he was always going to be lethal.

Amir needs to regain his swing. Both ways. At the moment he seems very ordinary and defensive relying too much on mistakes by batsmen and wasting the new ball by bowling wide.

Ishant and bumrah currently are better than amir
 
Amir since his return has done much of note in tests. Ishant has improved quite a bit but there still a wide gap between him and top performers.

Bowlers test record since 2016
(min 25 wickets)

[table=width: 600, class: grid, align: center]
[tr][td]Player [/td][td]Mat [/td][td]Wkts [/td][td]Ave [/td][td]SR [/td][td]5W [/td][td]10W [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Mohammad Abbas (PAK) [/td][td]8 [/td][td]42 [/td][td]17.69 [/td][td]42.6 [/td][td]2 [/td][td]0 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]B Kumar (INDIA) [/td][td]9 [/td][td]34 [/td][td]18.5 [/td][td]42.2 [/td][td]2 [/td][td]0 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]JM Anderson (ENG) [/td][td]31 [/td][td]131 [/td][td]20 [/td][td]50.3 [/td][td]8 [/td][td]1 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]VD Philander (SA) [/td][td]23 [/td][td]79 [/td][td]20.67 [/td][td]49.4 [/td][td]4 [/td][td]0 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]K Rabada (SA) [/td][td]29 [/td][td]149 [/td][td]21.26 [/td][td]37.8 [/td][td]9 [/td][td]4 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]M Morkel (SA) [/td][td]18 [/td][td]77 [/td][td]23.16 [/td][td]45.3 [/td][td]2 [/td][td]0 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]KAJ Roach (WI) [/td][td]12 [/td][td]41 [/td][td]23.29 [/td][td]44.9 [/td][td]2 [/td][td]0 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]N Wagner (NZ) [/td][td]18 [/td][td]82 [/td][td]24.1 [/td][td]48.9 [/td][td]4 [/td][td]0 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]PJ Cummins (AUS) [/td][td]13 [/td][td]59 [/td][td]24.66 [/td][td]50.1 [/td][td]1 [/td][td]0 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Mohammed Shami (INDIA) [/td][td]21 [/td][td]71 [/td][td]25.53 [/td][td]48.6 [/td][td]1 [/td][td]0 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]MA Starc (AUS) [/td][td]18 [/td][td]91 [/td][td]25.76 [/td][td]45 [/td][td]5 [/td][td]1 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]ST Gabriel (WI) [/td][td]21 [/td][td]77 [/td][td]26 [/td][td]47.7 [/td][td]5 [/td][td]1 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]JO Holder (WI) [/td][td]22 [/td][td]60 [/td][td]26.23 [/td][td]61.1 [/td][td]4 [/td][td]1 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]TA Boult (NZ) [/td][td]17 [/td][td]73 [/td][td]27 [/td][td]54.7 [/td][td]1 [/td][td]0 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]I Sharma (INDIA) [/td][td]17 [/td][td]48 [/td][td]27.89 [/td][td]57 [/td][td]1 [/td][td]0 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]BA Stokes (ENG) [/td][td]24 [/td][td]60 [/td][td]28 [/td][td]53.6 [/td][td]2 [/td][td]0 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]JR Hazlewood (AUS) [/td][td]26 [/td][td]91 [/td][td]28.63 [/td][td]63.3 [/td][td]3 [/td][td]0 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]TG Southee (NZ) [/td][td]14 [/td][td]57 [/td][td]28.96 [/td][td]56.7 [/td][td]3 [/td][td]0 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]SCJ Broad (ENG) [/td][td]33 [/td][td]107 [/td][td]29.14 [/td][td]62.3 [/td][td]2 [/td][td]0 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]C de Grandhomme (NZ) [/td][td]10 [/td][td]24 [/td][td]29.16 [/td][td]67.4 [/td][td]1 [/td][td]0 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]CR Woakes (ENG) [/td][td]21 [/td][td]65 [/td][td]30.86 [/td][td]59.7 [/td][td]2 [/td][td]1 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Wahab Riaz (PAK) [/td][td]11 [/td][td]40 [/td][td]32.85 [/td][td]55.3 [/td][td]1 [/td][td]0 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]RAS Lakmal (SL) [/td][td]23 [/td][td]63 [/td][td]33.01 [/td][td]66.5 [/td][td]1 [/td][td]0 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Mohammad Amir (PAK) [/td][td]19 [/td][td]56 [/td][td]33.21 [/td][td]73.5 [/td][td]1 [/td][td]0 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]UT Yadav (INDIA) [/td][td]21 [/td][td]53 [/td][td]33.28 [/td][td]62.1 [/td][td]0 [/td][td]0 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Sohail Khan (PAK) [/td][td]7 [/td][td]26 [/td][td]33.84 [/td][td]57.1 [/td][td]2 [/td][td]0 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]CBRLS Kumara (SL) [/td][td]12 [/td][td]40 [/td][td]36.87 [/td][td]55.8 [/td][td]1 [/td][td]0 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]N Pradeep (SL) [/td][td]11 [/td][td]28 [/td][td]37.5 [/td][td]67.6 [/td][td]1 [/td][td]0 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]ML Cummins (WI) [/td][td]13 [/td][td]27 [/td][td]37.59 [/td][td]68.7 [/td][td]1 [/td][td]0 [/td][/tr]
[/table]

Amir needs to improve his strike rate most of all.
 
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So if their careers ended today Ishant would be a better bowler than Amir.

Interesting for all the mocking of Ishant done by PPers over the years seems like he is better than their golden boy.
 
So if their careers ended today Ishant would be a better bowler than Amir.

Interesting for all the mocking of Ishant done by PPers over the years seems like he is better than their golden boy.

Yeah better than amir lets see after 50+test failure how much long he will maintain his golden test form
 
Amir played for Essex last season. He done well there but didn't really transfer his skills over.

Because the Essex fielders know how to hold onto their catches thats why, pakistanis clearly dont.

I know the initial poster said that Sharma has had catches dropped off him also but not as many as Amir cos some of the pakistani fielders are just pathetic. Amir when he came back from the ban needed his confidence back quickly but that didnt happen because of the fielding and now you feel he just goes through the motions, almost half heartedly.
 
Ishant in tests and Amir in ODIs. Ishant has bowled well in this series.

Is Amir enjoying his game?

One of the things I remember from his bowling in 2010 was the pure joy in his eyes while bowling. He seems to be missing that.

Not saying that he is disinterested, but just not as passionate anymore.
 
Is Amir enjoying his game?

One of the things I remember from his bowling in 2010 was the pure joy in his eyes while bowling. He seems to be missing that.

Not saying that he is disinterested, but just not as passionate anymore.

Seems to be motivated for certain games and doesn't bowl with much intensity in meaningless games.
 
Another five wicket haul for Ishant while Amir has chickened out of Test Cricket. Ishant will have a far greater legacy in Test Cricket.
 
Amir's legacy will always be of what might have been of the 2009-10 version

Given all he has gone through to come back after zero cricket for 5 yrs and still be international class in all formats is a big win for him.

He still has the ability to put together a good LOI career. Wish him all the best for it.
 
unfortunatly yes.... Ishant Sharma has leaped forward aamir by a long way in test cricket ... its a result of putting his focus, traning and commitment at the right format ... a job well done by Ishant and team management to keep him focused for test cricket .
 
Ishant Sharma has leaped forward aamir by a long way in test cricket ... its a result of putting his focus, traning and commitment at the right format ...
He wants to play LOIs too obviously. Team management is smart enough to keep him strictly for Tests where he's been performing well ever since his county stint under Jason Gillespie. That one season where he wasn't picked in the IPL auction turned out to be a blessing in disguise.
 
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