Why Steve Smith is still the undisputed second greatest Test batter of all time?

[Narayana59]

What makes Steve Smith better than anyone from last 40-50 years is his batting average in results oriented matches ( non draws matches).

Sachin average dropped to 45 in non draws matches and just 42 in away condition which suggests that he would have struggled badly in WTC era where draws are very very rare.

While Smith averages 10 + point than Sachin in non draws matches.
In away 53 AVG, overall 54-55 AVG.

 

[Narayana59]

Zim and ban makes all the difference in career average.

 

[Ab Fan]

Sadly you can't
Sachin Tendulkar played 31 percent of matches against the best bolwers of his times But Steve Smith is playing 56 percent of matches against the best bolwers of this generation -
View attachment 157099View attachment 157100

Cricket is not a 1-vs-1 sport. A batter faces a team’s bowling unit, not just one ATG.
Example: If a batter scores a hundred against Australia in 2000s under pressure situation , he didn’t just face McGrath — he also faced Warne, Gillespie, Lee, Kasprowicz etc.
Runs against the team represent performance against the collective challenge. Runs vs. only McGrath tells you just one slice of the story.

A batter may face an ATG bowler only a handful of times (e.g., due to injuries, formats, rotation, or batting position). As one Example: A No. 6 batter might barely face Dale Steyn or Glenn McGrath with the new ball. Judging him based on “runs vs. McGrath or Steyn” is unfair. Moreover, a batter may do well vs Anderson but struggle against Broad so how can we give them a pass for doing well vs Anderson when he might have overall not done well vs England. Smith struggled vs Neil Wagner, there was so much talk about that. But Wagner is a forgotten player already.

Btw, why you have not included the likes of Shaun Pollock, Courtney Walsh, Shoaib Akhtar but feel worthy to include Anderson, Ashwin or Jadeja in these lists? You are not showing only away performances . Anyways, it is the performance vs team that counts. Not just whether a specific player is featured or not because then there are so many variables like pitch, overall opposition strength, current form of batter all that counts.

 

[Ab Fan]

Lol on which world 90s Murali who had 25-26 AVG at home with 4 wpm is better than Jayasuriya who has 27 AVG with 7 wpm.
Steve Smith faced roach, seales and josheph in west indies.

And Roach has 6+ wpm vs aus in wi and Joseph have 7+ wpm vs aus at 16 AVG
No way sachin faced better bowlers.

Smith faced peak hearth too who was a below average bowler till 30 age in sachin er

Do you understand what you are talking even? You wanna say Sachin didn’t faced Murali in his prime years?


Btw, What did Smith do against Rabada in his prime years? Smith peak was in 2015 where he allowed Faf led SA to win the series in SAlol) and then in 2018, he did nothing against the peak Rabada and with de Villiers back in the SA side. We saw the result, Aussies lost 3-1. That is two back to back series loss vs SA when they had their best players. Post that, SA declined in test cricket and have found ground only recently.

 

[Narayana59]

Performance of Sachin Tendulkar and Steve Smith in Matches involving bowlers with< 30 AVG (min 50 wickets)-View attachment 157102View attachment 157103

@Ab Fan all great Bolwers are added jowll

 

[Ab Fan]

@Ab Fan all great Bolwers are added jowll

The fact that you are basing all your arguments including choosing which bowlers to pick based on some statistical rule tells us how big a fallacy is it. As I said in my above post, comparing 1 to 1 vs individual fast bowlers is not taking anyone anywhere.

Cricket is a sports of 11 players and when a player scores a hundred vs any opposition, you don’t see how many he scored again X and how many against Y. Best metric is simply look at performance both home and away. Away deserves a bit more attention because the game has produced far more Home Track Bullied than Away track bullies.

Based on away performances , I have no issue with someone picking Smith above Tendulkar but at the same time, no one should have issue with anyone picking Tendulkar ahead. The margin is very minimal.

Away averages excluding BD and Zim :-

Sachin - 7600 runs, Avg 52
Smith - 5300 runs, Avg 54

Rest all average below 50 but among them, Lara deserves a bit more credit due to very low not outs which is down to his aggressive approach of batting.

 

[Narayana59]

The fact that you are basing all your arguments including choosing which bowlers to pick based on some statistical rule tells us how big a fallacy is it. As I said in my above post, comparing 1 to 1 vs individual fast bowlers is not taking anyone anywhere.

Cricket is a sports of 11 players and when a player scores a hundred vs any opposition, you don’t see how many he scored again X and how many against Y. Best metric is simply look at performance both home and away. Away deserves a bit more attention because the game has produced far more Home Track Bullied than Away track bullies.

Based on away performances , I have no issue with someone picking Smith above Tendulkar but at the same time, no one should have issue with anyone picking Tendulkar ahead. The margin is very minimal.

Away averages excluding BD and Zim :-

Sachin - 7600 runs, Avg 52
Smith - 5300 runs, Avg 54

Rest all average below 50 but among them, Lara deserves a bit more credit due to very low not outs which is down to his aggressive approach of batting.

Steve Smith never faced lower quality bowlers in away condition like sachin in 90s sl , eng and nz against whom he scored 3000 runs at 76 AVG with 13 centuries.

I have already calculated his away average against 90s Pak, wi, sa,aus and 00 eng, sl, aus,pak - 46 . Xy AVG with 12 centuries

Smith average in Senai -53 AVG with 13 centuries .

The fact is that without minnows or below average attack sachin is a tier below Smith.
You can calculate them too manually by using statsguru

 

[Narayana59]

One of the funniest things about Sachin fans is their claim that he faced the best West Indies bowlers, when in reality, he barely played against them, and the ones he did face were well past their prime, with a significant reduction in their pace.

Yet, the same nostalgic merchants believe that players like Joe Root and Steve Smith are playing against weak Sri Lankan bowlers, despite both of them having faced Rangana Herath at his peak on challenging turning pitches

 

[Ab Fan]

Let me post the away averages again excluding BD and Zim for everyone:-

Tendulkar still has most runs and avg is also right up there- 7600 runs at avg 52.

Smith undoubtedly had a better peak but he is declining- 5300 runs at avg 54.

Lara averages 47 but it is low due to just 1 not out. Ponting was simply not as great away as he averages 45.

 

[Narayana59]

Even Virat Kohli is better than Sachin against full strength sena teams in sena and we are comparing him with Smith who never plays against plumbers level attack

 

[Ab Fan]

One of the funniest things about Sachin fans is their claim that he faced the best West Indies bowlers, when in reality, he barely played against them, and the ones he did face were well past their prime, with a significant reduction in their pace.

Yet, the same nostalgic merchants believe that players like Joe Root and Steve Smith are playing against weak Sri Lankan bowlers, despite both of them having faced Rangana Herath at his peak on challenging turning pitches

You don’t need to tell anyone whether Ranagana Herath was present in 2021 SL bowling attack that Root faced and cashed in heavily. It is not up for discussion because everyone knows he didn’t . Anyways, Herath is not some kind of ATG bowler anyways. What are you even discussing. That SL side was nothing to write about so there isn’t even a scoreboard pressure to work on. India have beaten them fair and square in last 10 years.

 

[Narayana59]

I am very sure kohli would have statpadded heavily against 90s sl , eng , nz - he would have 45-50 in 90s given the amount the matches Indian team played against minnows in 90s.
He is very unlucky that he played 78-80 percent matches against top 4

 

[Ab Fan]

It is getting funnier now as we have got a new evidence which suggests that this time it is turn of Virat Kohli to be greater than Sachin Tendulkar lol. Go and tell this to whole world, people don’t have time to come up and debate on these out of context illogical stats guru numbers. They will simply label such posts as irrelevant.

 

[Narayana59]

It is getting funnier now as we have got a new evidence which suggests that this time it is turn of Virat Kohli to be greater than Sachin Tendulkar lol. Go and tell this to whole world, people don’t have time to come up and debate on these out of context illogical stats guru numbers. They will simply label such posts as irrelevant.

So everything becomes irrelevant for you when someone doing deep analysis.

So according to you the real greatness comes from hyping fake stats like sachin averaged 57+ throughout till 177 Tests, and his career high average where he scored 1700+ runs against mighty zimbabwe and Bangladesh at 90-100 AVG, 3000 runs against mighty sl,nz,eng at 76 AVG.
So all these are relevant for you if someone compare him with a superior batsman by including these 5000 minnows bashing runs? Right else everything is irrelevant

 

[Narayana59]

Root vs Sachin against the best pacers of their Time

 

[mominsaigol]

So everything becomes irrelevant for you when someone doing deep analysis.

So according to you the real greatness comes from hyping fake stats like sachin averaged 57+ throughout till 177 Tests, and his career high average where he scored 1700+ runs against mighty zimbabwe and Bangladesh at 90-100 AVG, 3000 runs against mighty sl,nz,eng at 76 AVG.
So all these are relevant for you if someone compare him with a superior batsman by including these 5000 minnows bashing runs? Right else everything is irrelevant

I'll tell you what's happened. After years on PP we have finally had a poster like you who not only has the stamina and drive to continue but also has the stats and argumentation to back it up.

While I have kept these guys at bay, you have exceeded it and have ultimately shattered them by pure objective facts and amazing qualitative analysis.

They are currently in the denial phase and are unable to understand how one poster cam just dominate them so much with pure objectivity.

Even their attempts at insulting have unphazed you. Keep doing you fam. You're a breathe of fresh air on PP.

 

[PAKFAN12]

Some people's are really underestimate SRT performance. Maybe they are the only ones who read the game from the scoreboard .

 

[mominsaigol]

Some people's are really underestimate SRT performance. Maybe they are the only ones who read the game from the scoreboard .

Yeah man, a Pakistani Fan like you would share that sentiment

 

[kron]

Lol on which world 90s Murali who had 25-26 AVG at home with 4 wpm is better than Jayasuriya who has 27 AVG with 7 wpm.
Steve Smith faced roach, seales and josheph in west indies.

And Roach has 6+ wpm vs aus in wi and Joseph have 7+ wpm vs aus at 16 AVG
No way sachin faced better bowlers.

Smith faced peak hearth too who was a below average bowler till 30 age in sachin er

Smith faced prime Rabada, philander, Morkel and Abbott too

Ngidi Rabada philander etc are phenomenal in SA. Their averages are insane

If they had 2 3 great batsmen they would wallop teams in seaming conditions. Most teams I.e

 

[kron]

I'll tell you what's happened. After years on PP we have finally had a poster like you who not only has the stamina and drive to continue but also has the stats and argumentation to back it up.

While I have kept these guys at bay, you have exceeded it and have ultimately shattered them by pure objective facts and amazing qualitative analysis.

They are currently in the denial phase and are unable to understand how one poster cam just dominate them so much with pure objectivity.

Even their attempts at insulting have unphazed you. Keep doing you fam. You're a breathe of fresh air on PP.

I am in total agreement with Narayana
But the thing I would want to understand is, could Sachin have averaged more than he did. Like 4 5 points higher should he be supported with a great bowling attack which he dint have at his peak.

That’s the only counter argument. But otherwise, stats, metrics, match winning performances all equate to smith being far superior.

He’ll even a case for root.

 

[Bewal Express]

Good player, but not anywhere near. For me guys that played in the unlimited bouncer era could have played in any era, this isnt true of the modern greats or they wouldn't have been as successful. Although great players in the own right and with amazing statistics, they will never go out to bat fearing for their physical safety with dodgy protection

 

[Ice Man]

most amateurs didn't play Test Cricket, only some super talented ones did, 90% or above of Test Cricketers were professionals.

You are talking to someone who literally thinks Perth and Sydney are the same place. That should tell you all you need to know.

 

[kron]

Good player, but not anywhere near. For me guys that played in the unlimited bouncer era could have played in any era, this isnt true of the modern greats or they wouldn't have been as successful. Although great players in the own right and with amazing statistics, they will never go out to bat fearing for their physical safety with dodgy protection

Or maybe bowling is just far superior now that even with protection no player is safe.

 

[Bewal Express]

Or maybe bowling is just far superior now that even with protection no player is safe.

Across the board the standard has improved but the fast bowling isnt better and the fast bowler back in the day could resort to body line. Then it became an issue of having real Ticker

 

[kron]

Across the board the standard has improved but the fast bowling isnt better and the fast bowler back in the day could resort to body line. Then it became an issue of having real Ticker

If the standard has improved then bowlers are better basically.
But hard to compare eras.

You can only play who those in front of you. Product of your time.

 

[Golu-momin]

Lol on which world 90s Murali who had 25-26 AVG at home with 4 wpm is better than Jayasuriya who has 27 AVG with 7 wpm.
Steve Smith faced roach, seales and josheph in west indies.

And Roach has 6+ wpm vs aus in wi and Joseph have 7+ wpm vs aus at 16 AVG
No way sachin faced better bowlers.

Smith faced peak hearth too who was a below average bowler till 30 age in sachin er

What’s your original account? Pakistani having narayana name

 

[Narayana59]

Across the board the standard has improved but the fast bowling isnt better and the fast bowler back in the day could resort to body line. Then it became an issue of having real Ticker

There was a stats made by cricviz about most accurate bowlers in the world
In the 00 era, few bowlers like McGrath and md Asif were among the most accurate bowlers (they bolwed 40-45 percent of balls at the area of uncertainty) ,
While in current era there are many such exist, like pak bowler Abbas, sa bowler k abbott, Josh Hazlewood , bumrah, mat Henry etc,
Among all of these Scott Boland is the most accurate bowler (since last 3-4 years) he has Bolwed more than 50-54 percent balls at the area of uncertainty / good length ball just outside off stump.

I am unable to recall the exact data at this moment so i am telling the range.

 

[Narayana59]

There was a stats made by cricviz about most accurate bowlers in the world
In the 00 era, few bowlers like McGrath and md Asif were among the most accurate bowlers (they bolwed 40-45 percent of balls at the area of uncertainty) ,
While in current era there are many such exist, like pak bowler Abbas, sa bowler k abbott, Josh Hazlewood , bumrah, mat Henry etc,
Among all of these Scott Boland is the most accurate bowler (since last 3-4 years) he has Bolwed more than 50-54 percent balls at the area of uncertainty / good length ball just outside off stump.

I am unable to recall the exact data at this moment so i am telling the range.

Philander is another one

 

[mominsaigol]

You are talking to someone who literally thinks Perth and Sydney are the same place. That should tell you all you need to know.

Naw bro Bradman is an amateur. Did you know Bradman was born in Dhaka

 

[mominsaigol]

What’s your original account? Pakistani having narayana name

Lol? Rich coming from a guy who created an account trying to become my Indian Version

 

[mominsaigol]

Reminder

@Golu-momin @Rajdeep @RizwanT20Champ @PAKFAN12 @saimayubera

Are all alt accounts. I have proof of Rajdeep and Rizwanthe t20champ.

The other 3 I dont have hard proof but they know about conversations that transpired years and years back. So either they literally went thread to thread reading old messages implying they are wasting their life or they are simply on their alt account.

Besides saimayubera, pakfan, golu_momin. Juat look at the names? They all sound troll account worthy.

That's why I find it funny when people accused me or others of having alt accounts. As if we are that vela with our lives.

Edit:

@Ice Man Vela means Free in Urdu. In this context it means as if we are in the mood to waste our free time.

 

[mominsaigol]

Temu Indian Momin's and Temu Indian Mamoon's on this forumn.

Even @Devadwal trying his level best to mimick mamoon but is failing miserably.

 

[AZulfi]

Steve Smith is not even Australia's second-greatest test batsman.

Ricky Ponting and Greg Chappell, in their prime, were better than Steve.

 

[mominsaigol]

Steve Smith is not even Australia's second-greatest test batsman.

Ricky Ponting and Greg Chappell, in their prime, were better than Steve.

Lol, Ponting is my all time favourite player but even he doesnt share this sentiment.

He himself admits smith is > him in test cricket.

I love Ponting and believe he's top 5 odi batters all time and no 1 cricketer due to an unbeatable captaincy record which includes 3 icc titles in a row.

But in tests his record is on par with Joe root. People act like ponting is some messiah in test cricket but he avg 51, with an embarrassing record in India.

Root avg 35 in aus is not as embrassing as ponting avd 26 in india and this was back when india didnt doctor pitches and they had a trundler factory.

Ponting had an insane peak in test cricket but did eventually fall off.

Steve Smith on the other hand avg 66 at peak, has a terrific record in every country hes played in, still avg 56 and that too in a bowler friendly era.

He has shattered every single one of ponting records except no of centuries and runs but thays match dependant with ponting playing 160+ test matches and smith playing 119

 

[mominsaigol]

Lol, Ponting is my all time favourite player but even he doesnt share this sentiment.

He himself admits smith is > him in test cricket.

I love Ponting and believe he's top 5 odi batters all time and no 1 cricketer due to an unbeatable captaincy record which includes 3 icc titles in a row.

But in tests his record is on par with Joe root. People act like ponting is some messiah in test cricket but he avg 51, with an embarrassing record in India.

Root avg 35 in aus is not as embrassing as ponting avd 26 in india and this was back when india didnt doctor pitches and they had a trundler factory.

Ponting had an insane peak in test cricket but did eventually fall off.

Steve Smith on the other hand avg 66 at peak, has a terrific record in every country hes played in, still avg 56 and that too in a bowler friendly era.

He has shattered every single one of ponting records except no of centuries and runs but thays match dependant with ponting playing 160+ test matches and smith playing 119

Also 90% of people on this thread haven't even made an attempt to counter @Narayana59

Its expected but I feel pity for other posters who couldn't even engage in a debate

 

[Narayana59]

Steve Smith is not even Australia's second-greatest test batsman.

Ricky Ponting and Greg Chappell, in their prime, were better than Steve.

Lol
Meanwhile Ricky Ponting - "Steve Smith is out greatest since Don "

 

[mominsaigol]

Lol
Meanwhile Ricky Ponting - "Steve Smith is out greatest since Don "

Ricky Ponting is the greatest cricketer in terms of achievements when it comes to all format batting and trophy cabinet.

But as a test batter alone, Steve Smith is Heads and Shoulders > him.

 

[Narayana59]

What’s your original account? Pakistani having narayana name

Bro do you really think i am not from India , it's just that i love Steve Smith more than any other cricketers .

Then root,, Steyn hazlewood, kohli, bumrah, pat , Boland,etc are my goats.

 

[Bewal Express]

I am not rubbishing any player from an era. My point is that the physical threat was far greater back in the 70s and 80s. Poor equipment and different rules meant that players couldn't just jump on the front foot and they had to hook and pull with poor helmets or no helmets or they would struggle to score against better teams. Would Tendulkar and Lara have done well, absolutely but would they have got the stats they accumulated, not so sure. Donald, Akram and Anderson hit Tendulkar flush on. Lara got hit by Mcgrath and Others. We may never know but as Mike Tyson said
"Everyone has a plan until they get punched in the face.

 

[Narayana59]

I am not rubbishing any player from an era. My point is that the physical threat was far greater back in the 70s and 80s. Poor equipment and different rules meant that players couldn't just jump on the front foot and they had to hook and pull with poor helmets or no helmets or they would struggle to score against better teams. Would Tendulkar and Lara have done well, absolutely but would they have got the stats they accumulated, not so sure. Donald, Akram and Anderson hit Tendulkar flush on. Lara got hit by Mcgrath and Others. We may never know but as Mike Tyson said
"Everyone has a plan until they get punched in the face.

We can't say anything surely, may be these batsman can adopt to those conditions.
Viv and Gavaskar , Boarder averaged 50+ in that era, so modern players can also adopt those conditions.

 

[Bewal Express]

We can't say anything surely, may be these batsman can adopt to those conditions.
Viv and Gavaskar , Boarder averaged 50+ in that era, so modern players can also adopt those conditions.

Absolutely. They are good players and they wouldn't have much choice or they would be seriously hurt. This is a great debate on what if

 

[mominsaigol]

I am not rubbishing any player from an era. My point is that the physical threat was far greater back in the 70s and 80s. Poor equipment and different rules meant that players couldn't just jump on the front foot and they had to hook and pull with poor helmets or no helmets or they would struggle to score against better teams. Would Tendulkar and Lara have done well, absolutely but would they have got the stats they accumulated, not so sure. Donald, Akram and Anderson hit Tendulkar flush on. Lara got hit by Mcgrath and Others. We may never know but as Mike Tyson said
"Everyone has a plan until they get punched in the face.

Their is no point in comparing eras. As many cricketers have stated, you evaluate a players status via era comparisons.

Bradman isn't considered no 1 due to avg 99, he's considered no 1 due to being an outlier for his era. At one point Steve smith with an avg of 66 was considered = to Bradman as he was head and shoulders > everyone in his era but he stumbled eventually and currently he's more or less slightly > sachin, Lara and a few others test batters but not by much.

Same reason why Kohli and Viv are considered = in odi with viv edging out due to world cup win while kohli was a bystander in 2011.

Ignoring wc, both kohli and viv were outliers in odi for their era in that both of them are head and shoulders > any batter in odi however viv edges out barely.

A player should be compared era by era and not cross era's as otherwise their would be too many could have, would have, should have variables that are impossible to prove.

 

[mominsaigol]

Had Steve Smith maintained his peak I'd rate him > Bradman as he was head and shoulders > everyone in a far harder era and he maintained this peak for 8 years in every conditon while Bradman batted only in England and Australia.

However Steve Smith fell off and on current form Joe Root is the better test batter atm.

Root has been better then Smith since 2020 but root isnt anywhere close to Prime Steve Smith.

So unfortunately as @Narayana59 said, Steve Smith is no 2 all time. With Bradman being no 1 all time.

 

[DeadlyVenom]

I am not rubbishing any player from an era. My point is that the physical threat was far greater back in the 70s and 80s. Poor equipment and different rules meant that players couldn't just jump on the front foot and they had to hook and pull with poor helmets or no helmets or they would struggle to score against better teams. Would Tendulkar and Lara have done well, absolutely but would they have got the stats they accumulated, not so sure. Donald, Akram and Anderson hit Tendulkar flush on. Lara got hit by Mcgrath and Others. We may never know but as Mike Tyson said
"Everyone has a plan until they get punched in the face.

You are completely right though and it works for the bowlers too in reverse. Would the WIndies bowlers have been as terrifying in the modern era? I think bowlers like Shoaib would have averaged under 20 in the non safety equipment era too. I have a lot of respect for the batsmen who played in that time. I think in 20 years or so the next generations will consider that era of cricket as barbaric.

 

[Bewal Express]

You are completely right though and it works for the bowlers too in reverse. Would the WIndies bowlers have been as terrifying in the modern era? I think bowlers like Shoaib would have averaged under 20 in the non safety equipment era too. I have a lot of respect for the batsmen who played in that time. I think in 20 years or so the next generations will consider that era of cricket as barbaric.

Marshall with his skill set would have been even better( if thats possible). The likes of Lillie and IK would have been just as successful.
And i agree that SA would have been real handful along with the likes of Donald.

 

[mominsaigol]

You are completely right though and it works for the bowlers too in reverse. Would the WIndies bowlers have been as terrifying in the modern era? I think bowlers like Shoaib would have averaged under 20 in the non safety equipment era too. I have a lot of respect for the batsmen who played in that time. I think in 20 years or so the next generations will consider that era of cricket as barbaric.

It doesn't work as their are too many hypotheticals in play.

Too many would have, could have, should have.

Would Sachin Tendulkar be able to play in Bradman's era? With razor thin bats that cant straight drive and require full swing drives to hit boundaries? Or bats that can barely hit sixes? Or the fact that its very difficult to pull the ball or play any chest height delivery as without equipment the fear of death is inevitable.

This is why bodyline was difficult, it is not easy to pull with the fear of death being an inevitability. It is human reaction to duck or get out of the way. Bradman playing bodyline with bruises, blood and a concussion wouldnt work now as even minor hits on the helmet require concussion checks.

Similarly would Bradman function in this era? An era where their are multiple pitches and the game has evolved with more shots and more bowler variety?

Maybe yes, maybe not, but we don't have any method to logically prove this. Sachin would have to relearn batting as his technique is useless with those bats and equipment and same cam be said for Bradman.

 

[AZulfi]

Lol, Ponting is my all time favourite player but even he doesnt share this sentiment.

He himself admits smith is > him in test cricket.

I love Ponting and believe he's top 5 odi batters all time and no 1 cricketer due to an unbeatable captaincy record which includes 3 icc titles in a row.

But in tests his record is on par with Joe root. People act like ponting is some messiah in test cricket but he avg 51, with an embarrassing record in India.

Root avg 35 in aus is not as embrassing as ponting avd 26 in india and this was back when india didnt doctor pitches and they had a trundler factory.

Ponting had an insane peak in test cricket but did eventually fall off.

Steve Smith on the other hand avg 66 at peak, has a terrific record in every country hes played in, still avg 56 and that too in a bowler friendly era.

He has shattered every single one of ponting records except no of centuries and runs but thays match dependant with ponting playing 160+ test matches and smith playing 119

Respect your opinion, but this is debatable. It is a matter of subjective opinion. Of course, Ponting is not going to say that he's better than Steve!

I believe Ponting also averaged 59 when he had 9 or 10,000 test runs. Miandad also averaged 57.50 when he had 6,500 test runs (his purple patch in 87/88). Viv also averaged 58 or 59 when he had 5,000 test runs.

Ponting's record in India is poor, but so is Lara's. Viv and Sachin's test record against Pakistan is nothing more than modest. You cannot perform against every country and in every country.

I feel that overall, all formats combined, Ponting was a more dominant batsman than Steve. Steve Smith never dominated bowling attacks like Ponting did, never played an innings like Ponting did in the WC Final of 2003; To date, the highest individual score in a World Cup Final.

Steve is just a good run accumulator (cf. Root). Has an ugly batting stance, never found him exciting to watch, but that is just my opinion.

 

[mominsaigol]

Respect your opinion, but this is debatable. It is a matter of subjective opinion. Of course, Ponting is not going to say that he's better than Steve!

I believe Ponting also averaged 59 when he had 9 or 10,000 test runs. Miandad also averaged 57.50 when he had 6,500 test runs (his purple patch in 87/88). Viv also averaged 58 or 59 when he had 5,000 test runs.

Ponting's record in India is poor, but so is Lara's. Viv and Sachin's test record against Pakistan is nothing more than modest. You cannot perform against every country and in every country.

I feel that overall, all formats combined, Ponting was a more dominant batsman than Steve. Steve Smith never dominated bowling attacks like Ponting did, never played an innings like Ponting did in the WC Final of 2003; To date, the highest individual score in a World Cup Final.

Steve is just a good run accumulator (cf. Root). Has an ugly batting stance, never found him exciting to watch, but that is just my opinion.

First of your comment about Steve Smith never dominating bowling attacks like Ponting yet using Odi performances to supplement the argument when the argument is related to test cricket is a fallacy in of itself.

What does Odi dominance have anything to do with test cricket? Secondly Sachin, Lara, Ponting have zero relevance to Steve Smith who has a stellar record in every country.

The only country where Steve Smith has a poor record is Bangladesh but he only played 2 test matches on duatbowl pitches where even Joe root failed.

Using industrial fans like Pakistan did and Bangladesh did don't count for very obvious reasons. Unless people are implying that Bangladesh is a better test bowling side then everyone else.

Similarly Ponting avg 31 in Zimbabwe but no one takes that record seriously as he only played 1 test vs Zimbabwe in his entire life.

Steve Smith avg 40+ in every country he has played 5 or more test games in. In SCG and MCG he has Bradman level statistics and is arguably the greatest home track player of all time after Bradman.

Steve Smith batting in Australia in test cricket especially at MCG isn’t remotely comparable to Ponting in Australia. Smith clears by miles.

Smith has the 2nd best stats in test after Bradman, not just country wise but he avg 57+ in 74 out of his 119 test games while The likes of sachin did it 9 times, ponting did it only 14x and this was achieved in a bowler friendly era.

The economy rate of every bowling side in test cricket is lower then it was in ponting era. The rate of draws are lower as well. Only SA has increased where they were past team had a marginally lower economy rate them current SA.

Steve Smith didnt even play any minnow side in test either other then Sri Lanka who he spammed 2 back to back centuries again and Bangladesh on doctored pitches vs Ponting did enjoy a bit of stat padding.

 

[ElRaja]

punter averaged more than smith after 10.5k career runs, his numbers fell off terribly once his reflexes went because his back foot game was built on destroying pacers for fun. smith if he maintains his averages will be the second best aussie of all time, but i dont think hell maintain his averages like that, his style is too technically awkward to not rely on his eye, im guessing hell end his career avereging two or three runs lower than today.

 

[mominsaigol]

punter averaged more than smith after 10.5k career runs, his numbers fell off terribly once his reflexes went because his back foot game was built on destroying pacers for fun. smith if he maintains his averages will be the second best aussie of all time, but i dont think hell maintain his averages like that, his style is too technically awkward to not rely on his eye, im guessing hell end his career avereging two or three runs lower than today.

But you also have to look at The overall economy rates of sides bowling in Ponting's era compared to now.

With the exception of SA who's economy is higher, every side including minnow Sri Lanka has a better eco rate in this era then sides who had murli, warne etc.

The no of draws have also vastly decreased. Infact so have player averages. Shahid Afridi avg 37 in test cricket in that era lol.

This doesn't mean that current bowlers are > Murli, Mcgrath etc, but it does mean that pitches have made it easier. In india even root got a 5 wicket haul in some games.

Steve Smith avg 57+ in 74 out of his 119 games while every batter cant even cross 20 games? Ponting did it only 14x and that happened to be in 2006 during his golden run which is why he avg higher during the 10K run time frame.

Sachin himself did it only 9x. Steve Smith also hasnt faced any minnows excluding Bangladesh on doctored pitches and Sri Lanka in thier home den. Ponting faced more.

Steve Smith has a better peak, a better conversion rate, better country by country performances, the best performance in aus by any batter(Excluding Bradman) especially MCG and SCG, a higher career avg in a harder era?

His peak 66 era is greater then pontings 2006 61 avg peak?

They aren't comparable at all excluding 2006 ponting who is > current smith.

Smith has broken all of pontings records excluding no of centuries and no of runs but thays cause they are match count dependant. One has played 119 tests the other has played 160+

 

[AZulfi]

But you also have to look at The overall economy rates of sides bowling in Ponting's era compared to now.

With the exception of SA who's economy is higher, every side including minnow Sri Lanka has a better eco rate in this era then sides who had murli, warne etc.

The no of draws have also vastly decreased. Infact so have player averages. Shahid Afridi avg 37 in test cricket in that era lol.

This doesn't mean that current bowlers are > Murli, Mcgrath etc, but it does mean that pitches have made it easier. In india even root got a 5 wicket haul in some games.

Steve Smith avg 57+ in 74 out of his 119 games while every batter cant even cross 20 games? Ponting did it only 14x and that happened to be in 2006 during his golden run which is why he avg higher during the 10K run time frame.

Sachin himself did it only 9x. Steve Smith also hasnt faced any minnows excluding Bangladesh on doctored pitches and Sri Lanka in thier home den. Ponting faced more.

Steve Smith has a better peak, a better conversion rate, better country by country performances, the best performance in aus by any batter(Excluding Bradman) especially MCG and SCG, a higher career avg in a harder era?

His peak 66 era is greater then pontings 2006 61 avg peak?

They aren't comparable at all excluding 2006 ponting who is > current smith.

Smith has broken all of pontings records excluding no of centuries and no of runs but thays cause they are match count dependant. One has played 119 tests the other has played 160+

You can say Steve is statistically better, but prime Ponting was better than prime Steve even in tests imo Ponting was more impactful and charismatic. He may have struggled in India, but he had a strong record against Pakistan, scoring 1537 runs in 15 tests, with an impressive average of 66.82....and back then Pakistan had better spinners (however, not sure how many tests Ponting played against the likes of Saqlain and Mushtaq Ahmed in Pakistan)

And both formats combined (Tests and ODIs) Ricky Ponting most definitely a better batsman than Steve Smith.

Lets agree to disagree

 

[mominsaigol]

You can say Steve is statistically better, but prime Ponting was better than prime Steve even in tests imo Ponting was more impactful and charismatic. He may have struggled in India, but he had a strong record against Pakistan, scoring 1537 runs in 15 tests, with an impressive average of 66.82....and back then Pakistan had better spinners (however, not sure how many tests Ponting played against the likes of Saqlain and Mushtaq Ahmed in Pakistan)

And both formats combined (Tests and ODIs) Ponting most definitely a better batsman than Steve.

Lets agree to disagree

I will not agree to disagree on something that is factually incorrect.

Statistically better is a valid metric if it includes all statistics.

For example I can say lara and Sachin are better then Williamson and Sanga despite having a lower avg.

This is because NZ scheduled many one off tests vs minnows which let Williamson avg 61 at home, similarly sanga achieved his 57 avg via minnow bashing in test. Both Williamson and Sanga are woefully pathetic in upto 4 countries. They are good test batters but they are the definition of minnow of home den inflation.

Their is literally no metric in which Ponting surpasses Steve Smith in. Literally none with the exception of Ponting avg higher then smith when they were at 10K but thats due to Pontinf being at peak at 10K while smith being at peak around the 2K to 8K mark.

Now about your Pakistan claim so? Steve Smith has scored 750+ runs in a 5 match series in Ashes? And this included Jimmy Anderson england lol.

Only 3 players have had such freak runs in ashes. Alastair Cook with 747 runs, Steve Smith with 756 runs and Bradman with 947 runs.

Smith dominated in ashes more then ponting ever could. Pontinf was dominant yes but as a captain with a team, not as a solo batsmen.

 

[ElRaja]

But you also have to look at The overall economy rates of sides bowling in Ponting's era compared to now.

With the exception of SA who's economy is higher, every side including minnow Sri Lanka has a better eco rate in this era then sides who had murli, warne etc.

The no of draws have also vastly decreased. Infact so have player averages. Shahid Afridi avg 37 in test cricket in that era lol.

This doesn't mean that current bowlers are > Murli, Mcgrath etc, but it does mean that pitches have made it easier. In india even root got a 5 wicket haul in some games.

Steve Smith avg 57+ in 74 out of his 119 games while every batter cant even cross 20 games? Ponting did it only 14x and that happened to be in 2006 during his golden run which is why he avg higher during the 10K run time frame.

Sachin himself did it only 9x. Steve Smith also hasnt faced any minnows excluding Bangladesh on doctored pitches and Sri Lanka in thier home den. Ponting faced more.

Steve Smith has a better peak, a better conversion rate, better country by country performances, the best performance in aus by any batter(Excluding Bradman) especially MCG and SCG, a higher career avg in a harder era?

His peak 66 era is greater then pontings 2006 61 avg peak?

They aren't comparable at all excluding 2006 ponting who is > current smith.

Smith has broken all of pontings records excluding no of centuries and no of runs but thays cause they are match count dependant. One has played 119 tests the other has played 160+

i dont have the stats to back it up, but batting in aus seems much easier in this era where (west indies last tour notwithstanding) india seems to be the only team to bowl well in aus, even marnus averges 57 or something at home. peak steve smith was deffo aus second best batter, but u cant compare smith in the middle of his career to punter at the end of his. it may not happen, but i still reckon all of stats will go south, esp if he plays on till hes 40 (which i think he might cos aus dont have a lot of good test bats, and he seems to enjoy playing)

 

[mominsaigol]

i dont have the stats to back it up, but batting in aus seems much easier in this era where (west indies last tour notwithstanding) india seems to be the only team to bowl well in aus, even marnus averges 57 or something at home. peak steve smith was deffo aus second best batter, but u cant compare smith in the middle of his career to punter at the end of his. it may not happen, but i still reckon all of stats will go south, esp if he plays on till hes 40 (which i think he might cos aus dont have a lot of good test bats, and he seems to enjoy playing)

Which is why seeming =/= reality bro.





These are overall stats of each opposition. Not juat stats of those bowled to root and sachin otherwise india would be much higher considering root owns them lol.

Only SA has a worse economy likely due to the absence of steyn and rabada having a few poor series here and their.

The only one from this list that cant be taken seriously is Pakistan as despite a crazy boost during aus, England and other sides touring us, all that was wiped away once we switched to industrial fans.

Sajid and Noman taking 3 10 fers back to back with and having stats that would make a prime murli and Warne blush is what brought the avg down to preposterous levels.

However every other den can and should be taken at face value.

Marnus does not avg 57 at home, he avg 55 which isnt far off from what most batters in classic Australia avg at home.

Hayden = 57 as an opener
Justin Langer = 48 as an opener
Ponting = 56
Damien martyn = 46
Clarke = 62
Darren lehmann = 40
gilly = 45
Waugh = 47

excluding lehmann, all these guys avg high 40's to late 50's, but you're ignoring that excluding lehmann, they all played significantly more no of games in Australia.

Labu on the other hand was avg 24 overall and 28 in Australia and was dropped immediately. Had he continued to play that avg would drop considering he cannot buy a run. He has only played 32 test games in aus from which 24 of them were from his purple patch phase.

People have forgotten that at one point people actually believed that he'd be a decent replacement for Steve Smith. Now Cameron Green is ahead of labu in the pecking order.

 

[Devadwal]

Smith legacy is already defined by sandpaper gate and he is a biggest cheater . that is his legacy

 

[jeeteshssaxena]

That idiotic bowling attack comparison graph between 90s and 2020s is possibly the most hilarious piece of stats filtering I have seen.

That graph shows that West Indies of this era has a better bowling record than Ambrose, Walsh and Bishop without actually checking that the quality of batting has honestly down and West Indies plays a lot against minnows these days. It’s just horrible stat filtering.

Imagine saying Pakistan bowling attack these days is better than the one in 90s and 2000s. You have to be an absolute clown to believe that.

Similarly Aus with Mcgrath, Warne, Gillespie and Srl with their best bowlers in Murali and Vaas is somehow lesser than the current one which has some no named trundlers and spinners.

 

[Mamoon]

@atreus is a first-class poster.

 

[BouncerGuy]

GUYS, PLEASE NO PERSONAL STUFF

 

[BouncerGuy]

GUYS, PLEASE NO PERSONAL STUFF

NOT GOING TO REPEAT AGAIN

 

[Golu-momin]

Bro do you really think i am not from India , it's just that i love Steve Smith more than any other cricketers .

Then root,, Steyn hazlewood, kohli, bumrah, pat , Boland,etc are my goats.

Agree steve smith is better than sachin ,ponting, Lara But in my opinion he and sunny gavaskar are second best test batsman after bradman

 

[starpain]

All time Great Test batsmen Ranking

1. Bradman
2. Steve Smith
3. Sachin Tendulkar

To me, Smith and Sachin are interchangeable depending on how Steve Smith finishes his career.

 

[starpain]

To me Steve smith is the most dominant Test batsmen since Bradman.

The way he humiliated The likes of Root (2019) who is ATG and prime Kohli (2017) at their own home was extremely special.

Plus, Smith has also won the WTC in 2023 with match winning hundred.

The guy has done it all.

 

[Golu-momin]

All time Great Test batsmen Ranking

1. Bradman
2. Steve Smith
3. Sachin Tendulkar

To me, Smith and Sachin are interchangeable depending on how Steve Smith finishes his career.

Gavaskar definitely no less than smith facing peak West Indian Quartet arguably best cricket world had ever seen and scoring mountains of runs against those demons. He’s definitely better than tedulkar in test and great contender of 2nd best along with smith though i rate him slightly better than smith

 

[Golu-momin]

All are wrong
Just name one bowler sachin faced which have better bowling average than Scott Boland in aus

@Devadwal @Ab Fan @jeeteshssaxena
I see here lot of grandpa’s making comeback in disguise of being a new poster here because they failed earlier. Sachin is immortal to bring him down users have to take rebirth ‍Hard Life. War veterans keep it up

 

[TexasRattlesnake]

View attachment 157081View attachment 157082
Without minnows zimbabwe and Bangladesh sachin is not even better than Joe Root.

Steve Smith is unreal, way better than any other batsman Apart from Don

Sachin's era Zimbabwe was no minnow. They won a series in Pak way before Aus, SA, Eng did after the 80s. They were a better test side than current day Pak for example who is in this stat.

And removing Bangladesh where neither England nor Australia have been able to win their last series is disingenuous.

 

[Major]

People forget the pressure under which Sachin batted everytime. Especially in the 90s, before likes of Sehwag, Yuvi etc debut. I still remember during Chennai test in 99, during lunch break, he didnt even go to the dressing room. Sat on a chair near ball boy, didnt even removed his helmet and trying to soak up the pressure. During 96WC game against Pak in Bangalore, Sachin was asked ro cut down his natural instincts. Indian Cricket back then was all about him and he was Indian cricket. Sachin's wicket meaning game over for India.

No stats or cricinfo will show these things but only people who watched him play will remember those days. Temu Tendulkar's like Root bats under no pressure. The only high profile series he plays is Ashes downunder where he is yet to score a century. SRT has 2 centuries there as an 18 years old in lively Perth and WACA.

It is easy to bark in forums but context matters.

#Narayana

Every top batsman plays cricket under pressure. Atleast try to be logical

 

[Narayana59]

Sachin's era Zimbabwe was no minnow. They won a series in Pak way before Aus, SA, Eng did after the 80s. They were a better test side than current day Pak for example who is in this stat.

And removing Bangladesh where neither England nor Australia have been able to win their last series is disingenuous.

Sachin's era Zimbabwe was no minnow. They won a series in Pak way before Aus, SA, Eng did after the 80s. They were a better test side than current day Pak for example who is in this stat.

And removing Bangladesh where neither England nor Australia have been able to win their last series is disingenuous.

As expected from sachin fan's zimbabwe was the best team of Sachin era just because sachin scored 1700+ free runs against farmers of Zim and Ban.

Zim won 2 tests vs Ind and 2 vs Pak from 1995-2001. They had 1 more win vs Pak in 2013, They haven't beaten an other top8 team.

Zimbabwe with a massive w/l ratio of 0.1 >>>>>>>> current pak,sl, whos w/ l ratio are 0.5, 0.6 lol.
Current sl is>>>> 90s sl both bases on more wins at home way better w/l ratio at home and better bowling average than 90s because of the lonely rank turners galle where sl always playing in current era.
Current pak is somewhat similar to 90s eng. Although 90s eng bowlers were more bad.
Current Bangladesh is>>>>> sachin era zimbabwe as they drew or won series against aus and eng in 2017 , recently gave excellent performance in pakistan.

 

[Major]

Sachin's era Zimbabwe was no minnow. They won a series in Pak way before Aus, SA, Eng did after the 80s. They were a better test side than current day Pak for example who is in this stat.

And removing Bangladesh where neither England nor Australia have been able to win their last series is disingenuous.

Chalo jee zimbabwe was not a minnow for india....

Lol

 

[TexasRattlesnake]

Chalo jee zimbabwe was not a minnow for india....

Lol

I mean Pakistan was a country they defeated away.

And that too in the 90s.

What does that make the "great" 90s team then?

Lol

Here is the scorecard for those not in the know:

https://www.espncricinfo.com/series/zimbabwe-tour-of-pakistan-1998-99-62008

That team had Anwar, Waqar, Wasim, Inzy, MoYo, Ijaz, Mushtaq Ahmed etc.

 

[Hitman]

Chalo jee zimbabwe was not a minnow for india....

Lol

Of course they weren't. Ask anyone who saw cricket in the 90's. And I'm not being biased at all, I'm being honest. They became minnows after the 2003 World Cup.

 

[TexasRattlesnake]

Of course they weren't. Ask anyone who saw cricket in the 90's. And I'm not being biased at all, I'm being honest. They became minnows after the 2003 World Cup.

They won a test series in Pak too in the 90s vs a strong Pak side.

THAT was the real upset not a decent Bangladesh side defeating a far weaker Pak side last year.

Before social media etc so modern fans probably don't even realize this.

 

[Hitman]

They won a test series in Pak too in the 90s vs a strong Pak side.

THAT was the real upset not a decent Bangladesh side defeating a far weaker Pak side last year.

Before social media etc so modern fans probably don't even realize this.

The poster you replied has himself confessed that he started watching cricket since 2006. That's why it's advisable to not to speak of things before your time.​

 

[Major]

Sachin's era Zimbabwe was no minnow. They won a series in Pak way before Aus, SA, Eng did after the 80s. They were a better test side than current day Pak for example who is in this stat.

And removing Bangladesh where neither England nor Australia have been able to win their last series is disingenuous.

Chalo jee zimbabwe was not a minnow for india

I mean Pakistan was a country they defeated away.

And that too in the 90s.

What does that make the "great" 90s team then?

Lol

Here is the scorecard for those not in the know:

https://www.espncricinfo.com/series/zimbabwe-tour-of-pakistan-1998-99-62008

That team had Anwar, Waqar, Wasim, Inzy, MoYo, Ijaz, Mushtaq Ahmed etc.

So that means they were not a minnow. Zimbabwe beat Australia in wt20 2007, does that mean they were not minnow in 2007

 

[Major]

I cant stop laughing..according to India, zimbabwe was not a minnow loooll

 

[TexasRattlesnake]

Chalo jee zimbabwe was not a minnow for india

So that means they were not a minnow. Zimbabwe beat Australia in wt20 2007, does that mean they were not minnow in 2007

Post 03 they had a decline when all the white players left.

 

[TexasRattlesnake]

I cant stop laughing..according to India, zimbabwe was not a minnow loooll

Then what is more laughable is one of the greatest Pak sides having guys like Anwar, Wasim, Waqar, Inzy, MoYo etc etc LOST a TEST series at home to this minnow.

 

[TexasRattlesnake]

Chalo jee zimbabwe was not a minnow for india

So that means they were not a minnow. Zimbabwe beat Australia in wt20 2007, does that mean they were not minnow in 2007

Difference between winning a t20 and winning an entire test SERIES AWAY which is the toughest assignment in cricket.

Even now Zimbabwe defeat teams in T20s as you can remember from 2022 when they defeated Pak but they are hardly winning test series against top sides that too away.

 

[Major]

This is getting more and more hilariousss

 

[jnaveen1980]

Complete stat based analysis often is half baked analysis.

 

[Narayana59]

Saying zimbabwe is not a minnows based on one series is a similar level joke like saying sl is the best test team of this era just because they have won a test series against the goated attack of steuby,peak rabada, philander where aus+ Ind never won since last 15-20 years.