Is it wise for Pakistan cricket team to trade off WTC points with discovery of new pacers?

[The Bald Eagle]

PCT had been poor in home Tests since the return of cricket at their home but last year, they managed to etch out a recipe to beat big sides at home. This has helped them to beat sides like England and South Africa at home but as the proverb goes 'there is nothing as free lunch'. So by preparing rank turners, is Pakistan trading the grooming and discovery of new pacers with WTC points which may in end prove to be insufficient due to PCT's dismal winning record at overseas venue.

So is it wise to trade off WTC points with the discovery of a new X-factor pacer. Or is there any other option available to keep the cake and have it too.

 

[Energy]

No it's not wise. Why should Pakistan give up the home advantage in order to discover x, y and z factors? Pakistan need to give themselves every chance of maximising WTC points from the 3 home series.

Discovery can be made elsewhere in the domestic circuit or PSL or through other avenues.

 

[The Bald Eagle]

No it's not wise. Why should Pakistan give up the home advantage in order to discover x, y and z factors? Pakistan need to give themselves every chance of maximising WTC points from the 3 home series.

Discovery can be made elsewhere in the domestic circuit or PSL or through other avenues.

Yes that's a good alternative but don't know what sort of so called "world-class" pitches are we preparing in domestic circuit where likes of Saim and Mohammad Haris are scoring century with ease.

 

[DeadlyVenom]

It is a good move for the short term because this combination of conditions and bowlers is the best we have currently.

Long term it's not a good idea to go down the route Aqib suggested and make our domestic cricket spinner heavy.

Bowlers won't be discovered in test cricket, they are discovered in domestic. If you want to take test cricket seriously then you must improve the domestic structure and pitches.

 

[The Bald Eagle]

Concerns from Waqar Younis on aqibball era

 

[jnaveen1980]

WTC final is a farce. Not every team play equaly number of matches. Sometimes schedule favor teams more. But they have introduced more points for winning overseas. But they should double the points for overseas wins.

 

[tiger_khan]

Basically, test cricket is dying in Pakistan. No fast bowler is willing to do the hard work. All of them are chasing the white ball for money

unfortunately, we will have to get used to two versions of cricket now with this WTC in the equation.

our white ball team will look very different from our red ball one.

the white ball bowlers will be used for the red ball away tours

things don't look good for Pakistan

 

[The Bald Eagle]

WTC final is a farce. Not every team play equaly number of matches. Sometimes schedule favor teams more. But they have introduced more points for winning overseas. But they should double the points for overseas wins.

True, infact Australia, New Zealand and England before this year used to have much fair pitches. But countries in subcontinent India and Pakistan are ruining this trend.

India gets off the hook, because of 5-match and frequent overseas Test series while countries like Pakistan suffer who just get to play two matches abroad and can't risk to test new pacers there where infact they haven't tested them on their own soil.

That is why I don't rate subcontinent teams' series win highly. A BGT triumph in India for India is just an obvious conclusion.

 

[tiger_khan]

The ICC is being run by incompetent people

They should be proactive rather then reactive to the standard of pitches

They should have an inspection of pitches before every game and issue a certificate of approval. There should be clear minimum standards.

Otherwise bowlers will be getting overrated. For example, spinners in Pakistan & India. Which is unfair to the fats bowlers of both the countries.


Needless to say, there are other problems which have to do with TV rights and sponsors. For more than a decade now Australian & English pitches have been toned down depending on the situation of the series when India tours these countries. The Australian pitches are not as fast English pitches don't seam as much as they used to.

The sponsors want the game to be long enough for at least 4 days when India is visiting these countries. Otherwise if the games finish early not in their favor, Indian viewers lose interest sitting in India. Sponsors don't get their money's worth.

This favor is only given to India.

 

[Buffet]

PCT had been poor in home Tests since the return of cricket at their home but last year, they managed to etch out a recipe to beat big sides at home. This has helped them to beat sides like England and South Africa at home but as the proverb goes 'there is nothing as free lunch'. So by preparing rank turners, is Pakistan trading the grooming and discovery of new pacers with WTC points which may in end prove to be insufficient due to PCT's dismal winning record at overseas venue.

So is it wise to trade off WTC points with the discovery of a new X-factor pacer. Or is there any other option available to keep the cake and have it too.

WTC is not really that good a format due to how it is run and I won't bother doing eveyrthing just for WTC. Main goal should be to dominate at home and being competitive away.

Pakistan should do what works best for Pakistan in short and but also over the long term. Main thing is to have all kinds of pitches in domestic. In international, pitches can be different based on opponents.

But using Mirpur template all the time in every venue means, Pakistan won't be a competetive team when touring outside. I don't think that's a great strategy ove the long term.

 

[Buffet]

The ICC is being run by incompetent people

They should be proactive rather then reactive to the standard of pitches

They should have an inspection of pitches before every game and issue a certificate of approval. There should be clear minimum standards.

Otherwise bowlers will be getting overrated. For example, spinners in Pakistan & India. Which is unfair to the fats bowlers of both the countries.

Pacers from India have actually done really well in home grounds in the last 10 years,

Avg of pacer in Ind in the last 10 years:

Bumrah - 17
Shami - 19
Umesh - 20
Ishant - 23

Pacers had enough in pitch for them to do well otherwise they can't get these numbers.

 

[tiger_khan]

Pacers from India have actually done really well in home grounds in the last 10 years,

Avg of pacer in Ind in the last 10 years:

Bumrah - 17
Shami - 19
Umesh - 20
Ishant - 23

Pacers had enough in pitch for them to do well otherwise they can't get these numbers.

How many overs did they bowl and how many over all wickets did India take in these years! Will appreciate the stat. Thanks.

 

[tiger_khan]

How many overs did they bowl and how many over all wickets did India take in these years! Will appreciate the stat. Thanks.

@Buffet it will be great to get hands on info re how many 4 & 5 wickets in innings and 10 wickets in a match did the fast bowlers and spinners get in India in the past 10 years.

It will be also interesting to see how many man of the match did fast and spin bowlers get in the decade you mentioned

If you have access to it, it will be great to have a look at it

 

[jnaveen1980]

True, infact Australia, New Zealand and England before this year used to have much fair pitches. But countries in subcontinent India and Pakistan are ruining this trend.

India gets off the hook, because of 5-match and frequent overseas Test series while countries like Pakistan suffer who just get to play two matches abroad and can't risk to test new pacers there where infact they haven't tested them on their own soil.

That is why I don't rate subcontinent teams' series win highly. A BGT triumph in India for India is just an obvious conclusion.

India has won two BGTs in Australia. They drew level with ENgland back to back series. They drew level with SA. IN the next edition all the subcontinent bullies will be exposed as they are likely to introduce more points for overseas wins.

 

[Buffet]

How many overs did they bowl and how many over all wickets did India take in these years! Will appreciate the stat. Thanks.

After 2018, Pacers picked up 178 wickets out of 546 wickets. In same time, Pacers bowled 1200 overs out of 3800 overs bowled by Indian team. I kept 2018 becasue I was already looking for it in other thread. I think the last 10 years trend may look similar.

 

[Buffet]

@Buffet it will be great to get hands on info re how many 4 & 5 wickets in innings and 10 wickets in a match did the fast bowlers and spinners get in India in the past 10 years.

It will be also interesting to see how many man of the match did fast and spin bowlers get in the decade you mentioned

If you have access to it, it will be great to have a look at it

I don't see an option for 4-fers in filter, but 90% of 5-fers are spinners, they simply bowl a lot more so not unexpected. I think trend will same for 4-fers as well.

 

[tiger_khan]

After 2018, Pacers picked up 178 wickets out of 546 wickets. In same time, Pacers bowled 1200 overs out of 3800 overs bowled by Indian team. I kept 2018 becasue I was already looking for it in other thread. I think the last 10 years trend may look similar.

Thanks for sharing the info. Really appreciate it. That's what I suspected. Fast bowlers are setting less than one-third of the action.

It will be even better if we could get the breakdown wicket hauls and MOM composition

 

[tiger_khan]

Thanks for sharing the info. Really appreciate it. That's what I suspected. Fast bowlers are setting less than one-third of the action.

It will be even better if we could get the breakdown wicket hauls and MOM composition

@The Bald Eagle be mentally prepared for the future of home series in Pakistan. This is what the stats would look like in future. It's probably worse for Pakistan because we always relied on our fast bowlers.

 

[The Bald Eagle]

Can india defeat Aus in ind, with the sort of pitch they used against Windies in the 2nd Test?

India has won two BGTs in Australia. They drew level with ENgland back to back series. They drew level with SA. IN the next edition all the subcontinent bullies will be exposed as they are likely to introduce more points for overseas wins.

 

[DeadlyVenom]

WTC final is a farce. Not every team play equaly number of matches. Sometimes schedule favor teams more. But they have introduced more points for winning overseas. But they should double the points for overseas wins.

No sport has different points for home and away games. There is no need for it.

 

[The Bald Eagle]

@The Bald Eagle be mentally prepared for the future of home series in Pakistan. This is what the stats would look like in future. It's probably worse for Pakistan because we always relied on our fast bowlers.

I totally agree with you brother that ICC favors india if PCT could also get the luxury of 5 Tests or 3 Tests more often then certainly they could risk to play a Test or two on pace friendly or neutral condition surfaces

 

[Buffet]

I totally agree with you brother that ICC favors india if PCT could also get the luxury of 5 Tests or 3 Tests more often then certainly they could risk to play a Test or two on pace friendly or neutral condition surfaces

ICC does not dicate 2 tests or 4 tests in any series. It's mostly home board deciding it and visiting teams also need to agree.

 

[The Bald Eagle]

ICC does not dicate 2 tests or 4 tests in any series. It's mostly home board deciding it and visiting teams also need to agree.

So why PCT don't agree with 3 or 5 Tests with the like of WI in home cycle, that would have been nice for championship points

 

[tiger_khan]

What's happening to Pak cricket now is exactly what used to happen in the 80s, both in our international cricket and domestic cricket.

It was Imran Khan who wanted us to be competitive in away series, so he started to concentrate on our fast bowlers. After temporary retirement, post 87 WC, Miandad captained the 87 home series against England and we were back to three spinners in the team.

Even the domestic regional cricket back then was divided basically into two regions. Punjab and Karachi. Karachi conditions were always dry. They didn't encourage fast bowlers and were unfair to them. When they would tour Punjab they will make their batting openers bowl two to three overs each with the new ball instead of taking fast bowlers with them. It was only after 3 to 4 years when my generation of fats bowlers started to get treated better because the DNA of PAk cricket was evolving.

I'll hate to go back in the era of 80s...

 

[Buffet]

So why PCT don't agree with 3 or 5 Tests with the like of WI in home cycle, that would have been nice for championship points

Because PCT will lose money by hosting WI for 3 or 5 tests at home.

Championship points are not an issue. WTC has win percentage so winning 2 out of 2 is same as winning 5 out of 5.

 

[The Bald Eagle]

Because PCT will lose money by hosting WI for 3 or 5 tests at home.

Championship points are not an issue. WTC has win percentage so winning 2 out of 2 is same as winning 5 out of 5.

Sorry but that doesn't seem to be that simple, you could check the percentage of India in this cycle, if it would have been 3 or more Test against Windies then your % points would have been higher

 

[tiger_khan]

So why PCT don't agree with 3 or 5 Tests with the like of WI in home cycle, that would have been nice for championship points

That's because they are chasing money.

I suspect that the profit is higher on white ball cricket (TV rights, etc)

There are many reasons behind it but one of the reasons is the type of cricket we have been playing during the Azhar Ali and Misbah era. There batting styles didn't attract viewership.

Needless to say, players are also trying to save their bodies for more return over the long run


Mohammad Yousuf was money absolutely correct when he said that if Pak Test cricket is to survive, the board must start paying more for the Test cricket. Players are chasing white-ball cricket in Pakistan because they can make more per day playing the shorter version. Nobody listened to him and here we are...

PCB has effectively divested from Test cricket.

 

[Barragan]

Pacers aren't starting their careers on these pitches!

Pacers are playing in domestic cricket and those pitches have been pace friendly for the past few years

This time, the pitches have been flatter and this is a positive because only the best will thrive and be chosen, instead of every mediocre pace bowler taking wickets for fun

This is how world class guys like Wasim, Waqar, Akhtar, Asif etc were found because they went through the hard yards on flat surfaces

 

[jnaveen1980]

Can india defeat Aus in ind, with the sort of pitch they used against Windies in the 2nd Test?

That is not a good Test pitch for anyone as it got better and better to bat on. That is rare.

 

[Hawkeye]

Spin pitches do not change anything for quality fast bowlers.

In fact it might help surface genuinely talented fast bowlers.

India has such pitches for more than a decade yet they have managed to build a great pace bowling side, unearthed bowlers like Bumrah.

On these pitches only the best pacers would play and be able to perform, and we can build a factory of them for overseas conditions as well.

Reverse swing will help regardless if it’s a turning track and seam bowling also is not affected. We need such bowlers.

 

[jnaveen1980]

No sport has different points for home and away games. There is no need for it.

Other sports don't have external factors like pitch, conditions. Also teams that play more home games can sneak through to final.

 

[Buffet]

Sorry but that doesn't seem to be that simple, you could check the percentage of India in this cycle, if it would have been 3 or more Test against Windies then your % points would have been higher

https://images.icc-cricket.com/image/upload/prd/slmsq8bcoa41z9k8myxs.pdf

Each series has 120 points spread evenly across matches.

If you have 2 tests then 60 points for each tests
If you have 5 tests then 24 points for each tests

Playing 2 or 5 does not make any difference. It's about win percentage.

 

[Sachin fan]

True, infact Australia, New Zealand and England before this year used to have much fair pitches. But countries in subcontinent India and Pakistan are ruining this trend.

India gets off the hook, because of 5-match and frequent overseas Test series while countries like Pakistan suffer who just get to play two matches abroad and can't risk to test new pacers there where infact they haven't tested them on their own soil.

That is why I don't rate subcontinent teams' series win highly. A BGT triumph in India for India is just an obvious conclusion.

Don't drag india into this, 30-40% of wickets in india are taken by pacers. Only the recent NZ series was the exemption.

Things have changed drastically since Kohli became test captain. Look at the average of our pacers at home.

 

[Sachin fan]

I totally agree with you brother that ICC favors india if PCT could also get the luxury of 5 Tests or 3 Tests more often then certainly they could risk to play a Test or two on pace friendly or neutral condition surfaces

PCB chooses to have lesser test. Are you seriously implying that PCB has no say in number of tests their team should play? That's not how scheduling works. All bilateral series are decided between the two boards.

 

[ElRaja]

no, keep these pitches, win the few tests you play, and if these pitches mean 80mph dibbly dobblies dont get selected than thats fair enough.

 

[mon858]

Simple, invite non sena teams like Bangladesh Sri Lanka or even Zimbabwe Afghanistan and make pace friendly pitches for those. But against SENA dont even think about it till Noman is 60 year old.

 

[Farabi]

Concerns from Waqar Younis on aqibball era

View attachment 158748

Shaheen showed genuine skill with the old ball — something the SA pacers lacked. It’s lazy to make such blanket statements when even Waqar himself won Tests with the old ball, and spinners like Mushi and Saqlain ran through teams on dry home tracks.

 

[Rana]

Winning Test matches matter

Then again, Bangladesh know how to beat teams like Australia and England on their territory.

Winning at home was missing…this was a big issue since Test cricket returned to Pakistan and it was just embarrassing to lose the series v Australia and England, also drawing against New Zealand. Then the first Test again v England. Something had to change! Pakistan had no choice but to go this route.

They are getting close to winning the odd Test away in SENA. They won’t be a proper team until they register some wins. The England series next year will be a great challenge

 

[Rana]

Simple, invite non sena teams like Bangladesh Sri Lanka or even Zimbabwe Afghanistan and make pace friendly pitches for those. But against SENA dont even think about it till Noman is 60 year old.

I don’t think Pakistan can definitely beat any Test nation besides Zimbabwe or Afghanistan (if they count) on friendly home pitches.

 

[Rana]

This kind of pitch is fine with reverse swing coming into play

2 spinners+2 pacers is a good ploy

Pacers should get a proper first spell with the new ball I think

 

[Farabi]

This kind of pitch is fine with reverse swing coming into play

2 spinners+2 pacers is a good ploy

Pacers should get a proper first spell with the new ball I think

yup

Winning Test matches matter

Then again, Bangladesh know how to beat teams like Australia and England on their territory.

Winning at home was missing…this was a big issue since Test cricket returned to Pakistan and it was just embarrassing to lose the series v Australia and England, also drawing against New Zealand. Then the first Test again v England. Something had to change! Pakistan had no choice but to go this route.

They are getting close to winning the odd Test away in SENA. They won’t be a proper team until they register some wins. The England series next year will be a great challenge

Absolutely! Things didn’t just need to change — they needed to change in this direction. This is how Pakistan has always won Test matches: through spin and reverse swing. There’s no shame in returning to a template that’s historically worked.

There’s a reason reverse swing evolved in Pakistani conditions, and why spinners thrive in domestic cricket. Our plans should be built around the strengths and resources we actually possess rather than fantasies of some individuals about what should be.

 

[Rana]

yup

Absolutely! Things didn’t just need to change — they needed to change in this direction. This is how Pakistan has always won Test matches: through spin and reverse swing. There’s no shame in returning to a template that’s historically worked.

There’s a reason reverse swing evolved in Pakistani conditions, and why spinners thrive in domestic cricket. Our plans should be built around the strengths and resources we actually possess rather than fantasies of some individuals about what should be.

The positive change isn’t coming at the cost of seamers,

It’s coming at the cost of over-inflated batters who are really not as good as their averages were at home.

Imam and Abdullah for example, they are not 50+ Averaging Test batters! At home it felt as if they were as good as Hayden and Langer on those roads..

Don’t want to talk too much on Babar, he’s exposed himself to be poor even when the roads were there and he couldn’t bat anywhere near as fluently the way the England batters pounded Pakistan bowlers into submission!

It’s these overrated batters who are being brought back down to reality. A good pacer will still deliver here.

Brydon Carse bowled brilliantly in that 800 run Test match, he put in the hard yards and was rewarded. Rabada and Seales have shown that quality pacers will leave their mark on these spin tailored decks too, you just have to bend your back and hit those lengths. There is enough in the pitch to make good pace work on these tracks.

 

[Vikram1989]

Can india defeat Aus in ind, with the sort of pitch they used against Windies in the 2nd Test?

India defeated aus in 2017 at dharamsala, the most eng wicket u will get in Asia. It was against peak smith.India played with out kohli too.Bangalore was the toughest pitch as there was everything for all bowlers.india lost on a spin pitch and drew on a slow turner.India went overboard in second wtc.

Even against sa in 19, they won on few pacy wickets as india collapsed regularly for 40/3 in overcast conditions.

 

[Vikram1989]

Even against sa in 19, they won on few pacy wickets as india collapsed regularly for 40/3 in overcast conditions.

India have batted first in all the 3 matches in overcast conditions. Faf later made a scene saying india won because of winning the toss but obviously ignored the overcast conditions and unable to captialise the collapses upfront.

 

[Farabi]

The positive change isn’t coming at the cost of seamers,

It’s coming at the cost of over-inflated batters who are really not as good as their averages were at home.

Imam and Abdullah for example, they are not 50+ Averaging Test batters! At home it felt as if they were as good as Hayden and Langer on those roads..

Don’t want to talk too much on Babar, he’s exposed himself to be poor even when the roads were there and he couldn’t bat anywhere near as fluently the way the England batters pounded Pakistan bowlers into submission!

It’s these overrated batters who are being brought back down to reality. A good pacer will still deliver here.

Brydon Carse bowled brilliantly in that 800 run Test match, he put in the hard yards and was rewarded. Rabada and Seales have shown that quality pacers will leave their mark on these spin tailored decks too, you just have to bend your back and hit those lengths. There is enough in the pitch to make good pace work on these tracks.

Yup! Excellent point — and to build on what you’re saying, the irony is that Waqar Younis himself got most of his wickets with the old ball, often using tempered or heavily scuffed balls on abrasive surfaces. He was backed by world-class spinners like Mushtaq Ahmed and Saqlain Mushtaq, who did the rest on dry, turning tracks. That combination — spin and reverse swing — was Pakistan’s winning formula for over a decade.

All these years later, Shaheen Shah Afridi stood out precisely because of those same skills. He was exceptional with the old ball, showing control, craft, and awareness that many of the South African pacers lacked — or perhaps, as some might say, Pakistan just “worked the ball” better.

Either way, we are seeing folks on here jump the band wagon.

 

[saimayubera]

True, infact Australia, New Zealand and England before this year used to have much fair pitches. But countries in subcontinent India and Pakistan are ruining this trend.

India gets off the hook, because of 5-match and frequent overseas Test series while countries like Pakistan suffer who just get to play two matches abroad and can't risk to test new pacers there where infact they haven't tested them on their own soil.

That is why I don't rate subcontinent teams' series win highly. A BGT triumph in India for India is just an obvious conclusion.

Lol is this the new cope?

 

[saimayubera]

India has won two BGTs in Australia. They drew level with ENgland back to back series. They drew level with SA. IN the next edition all the subcontinent bullies will be exposed as they are likely to introduce more points for overseas wins.

In that same time period, Pak won ZERO SENA tests lol.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

Other sports don't have external factors like pitch, conditions. Also teams that play more home games can sneak through to final.

All overseas wins are not the same either. You can't compare winning in Bangladesh to winning in Australia.

 

[saimayubera]

Can india defeat Aus in ind, with the sort of pitch they used against Windies in the 2nd Test?

2017 4th test
2023 1st test

Even England were defeated in 2024 on flat wickets while Pak were massacred in 2022 and the first test of 2025. India drew 2-2 this summer on flat wickets while Zak Crawley beat Pakistan in 2020 on far more helpful wickets. 2026 Eng tour gonna be a massacre similar to the 2025 1st test.

This is again cope of equivalence like "We made the Asia Cup final close. India could only win in the last over".

Indian bowlers are far superior to Pakistan bowlers whether spinners or pacers, in all conditions.

Pakistan are unable to even defeat the likes of Bangladesh and West Indies at home, who have been whitewashed in India a few months after.

 

[saimayubera]

If subcontinental wins are not rated, where does that leave the Misbah-Younis era team which Pakistanis love to kang on?

That entire team was built on subcontinental performances. They were whitewashed in SA, NZ and Aus and even managed to only draw in Zimbabwe. Their only away performance of note was the Eng 2016 draw. Even at home they drew a lot to the likes of SA, NZ etc and were also whitewashed in SL in 2014.

 

[U$ofA]

The ICC is being run by incompetent people

They should be proactive rather then reactive to the standard of pitches

They should have an inspection of pitches before every game and issue a certificate of approval. There should be clear minimum standards.

Otherwise bowlers will be getting overrated. For example, spinners in Pakistan & India. Which is unfair to the fats bowlers of both the countries.


Needless to say, there are other problems which have to do with TV rights and sponsors. For more than a decade now Australian & English pitches have been toned down depending on the situation of the series when India tours these countries. The Australian pitches are not as fast English pitches don't seam as much as they used to.

The sponsors want the game to be long enough for at least 4 days when India is visiting these countries. Otherwise if the games finish early not in their favor, Indian viewers lose interest sitting in India. Sponsors don't get their money's worth.

This favor is only given to India.

So, if ICC is run by incompetent people, aren't the ECB and CA run by greedy people?

 

[U$ofA]

True, infact Australia, New Zealand and England before this year used to have much fair pitches. But countries in subcontinent India and Pakistan are ruining this trend.

India gets off the hook, because of 5-match and frequent overseas Test series while countries like Pakistan suffer who just get to play two matches abroad and can't risk to test new pacers there where infact they haven't tested them on their own soil.

That is why I don't rate subcontinent teams' series win highly. A BGT triumph in India for India is just an obvious conclusion.

That is because PCB is unwilling to host more than a two test series. Only Eng and Aus get 3 tests I think. Perhaps a re-negotiation of number of tests needs to be done.

 

[sweep_shot]

Maybe there can be 2-3 different pitches. One can be spin-friendly. Another can be pace-friendly. Another can be flat.

Need to mix it up perhaps.

 

[U$ofA]

I totally agree with you brother that ICC favors india if PCT could also get the luxury of 5 Tests or 3 Tests more often then certainly they could risk to play a Test or two on pace friendly or neutral condition surfaces

No one is stopping the PCB from playing longer series. Boards have complete control over their schedules. PCB needs to talk things over with other boards and get it done.

 

[U$ofA]

So why PCT don't agree with 3 or 5 Tests with the like of WI in home cycle, that would have been nice for championship points

Good question. Will the PCB answer?

 

[saimayubera]

India is not "donated" 5 match test series. They play 5 match series because there is money in it.

Pakistan isn't interested in test cricket. Even if someone offers them 5 matches they will cancel 3 and add T20s.

 

[saimayubera]

So why PCT don't agree with 3 or 5 Tests with the like of WI in home cycle, that would have been nice for championship points

No. Because championship points are a percentage. 2-0 is same as 5-0.

 

[U$ofA]

https://images.icc-cricket.com/image/upload/prd/slmsq8bcoa41z9k8myxs.pdf

Each series has 120 points spread evenly across matches.

If you have 2 tests then 60 points for each tests
If you have 5 tests then 24 points for each tests

Playing 2 or 5 does not make any difference. It's about win percentage.

This is what makes WTC ridiculous.

 

[ads101]

I think it makes our pacers more threatening not less. They will have to work out how to be effective in conditions which aren’t good for them. Which if they learn to, will give them a direct advantage against SENA fast bowlers who are used to playing in conditions more suited to them.

If the pitches are good for spin too, it means the workload of our pacers in tests will also be managed better.

The worst type of pitch is a completely flat one with no aid to pacers or spinners. Then you’ll find pacers being bowled too much just to make up overs.

Pakistan have always needed to first be competitive at home. We play half our matches there. Too many times we worry about preparation and players for say Australian tours where we don’t even win matches anyway. We play most of our matches in Asia, hence we need to work out a way mostly winning at home and in Asia. Then we can worry about SENA.

 

[BouncerGuy]

I don't think PCB traded anything.. TBH, there are no pacers in the country who are 100% interested in Test cricket.. Look at our domestic First class cricket.. Standard has been pathetic.. We are discovering pacers but they are more routed towards t20 and Odis now.

We needed to win at home so spin formula had to come.

 

[mominsaigol]

Pakistan needs to find a way to win away from home to win WTC.

The first focus has to prioritise bagging 6 out 6 victories for WTC (SA, Bangladesh and WI)

Then comes the super scary tours of England and home series of NZ.

Both are terrifying cause England's batting is terrifying at home and spin is useless + NZ beat India at their own game, I believe NZ is the one team that can end Pakistan's streak at home.

Since the aqib era, Pakistan hasn't lost a single test series at home, Either draw or win. They've faced England, SA and w
Wi since Aqib era started.

NZ can possibly break the streak.

 

[saimayubera]

Pakistan needs to find a way to win away from home to win WTC.

The first focus has to prioritise bagging 6 out 6 victories for WTC (SA, Bangladesh and WI)

Then comes the super scary tours of England and home series of NZ.

Both are terrifying cause England's batting is terrifying at home and spin is useless + NZ beat India at their own game, I believe NZ is the one team that can end Pakistan's streak at home.

Since the aqib era, Pakistan hasn't lost a single test series at home, Either draw or win. They've faced England, SA and w
Wi since Aqib era started.

NZ can possibly break the streak.

There is no guarantee this will be 6 out of 6. All of these series are 50-50 depending upon toss/conditions and can be anything from 2-0 to 0-2 to 1-1.

3-3 would be a correct estimate.

Pak have won only won one series in WI ever and WI have good pace bowlers who made things tough for Australia. Pakistan just does not have Australia level pacers to hit back.

Similarly Bangladesh won its last test series vs Pakistan and have decent pacers/spinners.

 

[zahid01]

Problem started for Pakistan when they dished out roads to England then the regime change happened and they went to other extreme doctored pitches to help spinners they have been lucky with the tosses and have won the matches one toss they didn't win they lost we need to strike balance home advantage is important but don't over do it where you destroy the game prepare pitches like the ones we prepared against south Africa last time they visited as regards to the fast bowling department we have not tried any new faces to sit on the fence and say we don't have talent is bit harsh there are players toiling in domestic cricket they can try but they won't they keep bringing back like of hassan ali

 

[cricfan432]

Domestics and sena tour can be used for this purpose, home wins are necessary for morale of team and interest of fans

 

[Ab Fan]

Concerns from Waqar Younis on aqibball era

View attachment 158748

Which fast bowlers have Pakistan produced in last 20 years? They don’t have single with 200 test wickets.

 

[hassan918]

Which fast bowlers have Pakistan produced in last 20 years? They don’t have single with 200 test wickets.

Pakistan produced many 140+ bowlers in the recent years and there are at least a dozen of bowlers in the country who can consistently bowl at this pace with some of the bowlers bowling upto 150 kph but none of the bowlers played test cricket consistently in recent years, yet they couldn't reach to that milestone.

 

[GoUgandaCranes]

Which fast bowlers have Pakistan produced in last 20 years? They don’t have single with 200 test wickets.

Pak has produced decent fast bowlers after Waqar Younus but none of them have been really great or impressive. Compiling a list at the end of my post which has names of the notable bowlers who played for us & while not great, some in that list had the potential to be decent test class bowlers.

Pak cricket fans after the 90s and early 2000's were spoiled & expected that every bowler who'd turn up would be like the two W's. We also played an ODI series in Australia in which Waqar, Wasim, Akhtar, & Sami were really pacy & great & it gave us the illusion that the baton of fast bowling has been passed to the new generation and all is good.

This proved to be an illusion, Sami statistically (I think, not sure but he has a plus 50 bowling average) became the worst bowler in test history & Akhtar was too injury prone to lead the attack like a true spearhead. It didn't help that we played our home cricket on the flattest of tracks in the 2000s and also played against India home and away. Barring the exception of a couple of tests, all of these wickets were super flat or spin friendly & drained Akhtar. That said, we did manage to beat England, & Ind in home series (after losing a series to Ind) but the lack of depth of our bowling was masked by Akhtar doing great and new pacers like Asif & Amir emerging.

Then came two major blows that have caused, so far, irreparable damage to our fast bowling legacy.

1. Attack on Sri Lankan team that moved cricket out of Pak and shifted it to UAE.
2. Spot fixing scandal that removed the next gen best fast bowlers.

Imo, moving cricket to UAE has just destroyed our fast bowling culture. Those were the most boring pitches to ever play test cricket on & Pak shifted to a spin friendly strategy to eek out results. Ajmal, Yasir, Abdul Rehman, Zulfi chacha, etc. came into prominence & we just haven't looked back after that. We now barely play any cricket and when we play home tests we prepare extra spin friendly pitches so resurgence of fast bowling is not looking like a thing that'll happen immediately.

Here's the list of bowlers that said I'll post before the end of the post

1. Aqib: Decent & hardworking but not a true great. Didn't get a chance to stat pad his numbers via tailenders hence over 30+ average.
2. Shahid & Imran Nazir: Decent and good bowlers but not great. Shahid was a domestic cricket icon but never got a proper chance at his prime.
3. Muhammad Akram and Zahid: Zahid was super fast but he got injured too soon. Made a comeback and still bowled 140 plus but wasn't the same and then he left cricket. Akram has a sub 30 average in domestic but he developed late so never has the stats to show for it.
4. Shoaib Akhtar: Possibly someone who should have breached the 200 wicket club but didn't. Only true great in this list. He also played until 2011 so our bowling looked dangerous until he was in the mix.
5. Rana Naveed: Made his debut a bit too late. Waqar Wasim also played till 2003 so we didn't really value bowlers like him & when he played test cricket it just felt he was way past it. A decent white ball bowler though.
6. Shabbir: Took 50 wickets at 23 & had good height but his action was a catastrophe.
7. Umar Gul: Another one who was more than decent in test cricket.
8. Muhammad Amir & Asif: When Procter saw Asif in RSA, he said he's a 400+ wicket bowler. Amir had potential to get 200 wickets under 28.
9. Wahab & Junaid: Not great but both had potential to average under 30 but their cricketing career was cut short due to playing in UAE.

We now have Shaheen and Abbas who are more than decent in suitable conditions. Shaheen also has the potential to break the 200 wicket club, Abbas should have but he won't because we play too little test cricket. He may only play 5 more tests before retirement which is a travesty because he's someone who could easily be like Philander.

 

[The Bald Eagle]

https://images.icc-cricket.com/image/upload/prd/slmsq8bcoa41z9k8myxs.pdf

Each series has 120 points spread evenly across matches.

If you have 2 tests then 60 points for each tests
If you have 5 tests then 24 points for each tests

Playing 2 or 5 does not make any difference. It's about win percentage.

Thanks for clarification, certainly it's PCB fault then that they are more interested in T20s than Tests. Although with rank turners and Test being arranged in winter session, PCT could easily draw crowds to stadium.

PCB must revise it's approach as it would be inimical in the long run.

 

[The Bald Eagle]

If subcontinental wins are not rated, where does that leave the Misbah-Younis era team which Pakistanis love to kang on?

That entire team was built on subcontinental performances. They were whitewashed in SA, NZ and Aus and even managed to only draw in Zimbabwe. Their only away performance of note was the Eng 2016 draw. Even at home they drew a lot to the likes of SA, NZ etc and were also whitewashed in SL in 2014.

Lol Mr @TexasRattlesnake you look so rattled.

Hahah...Misbah and Younis draw a series in England when you lot where getting bullied and defeated by Anderson & co.
Secondly, unlike your idol Kohli both keep improving like old vine in the twilight of their career and didn't used to get out through soft dismissals.
Thirdly, they didn't get to play in Pakistan but in UAE where unlike some team they didn't get to temper soils to get humiliated in finals nor industrial fans were used back then to alter pitch conditions.

Also a simple question for you how high do you rate Sajid and Noman?? Haha...no surprise you can't answer this question as this will expose you.

 

[Varun]

Pakistan won't produce a fast bowler anyway.

Last Pakistani fast bowler who managed to play 50 tests / take 200 wickets = Waqar Younis, debut 1989.

Any Pakistani batsman or bowler who made his debut in the last 15 years had their best year in the first part of their career, only to then fizzle out.

 

[Aqib_mustafa]

Lol Mr @TexasRattlesnake you look so rattled.

Hahah...Misbah and Younis draw a series in England when you lot where getting bullied and defeated by Anderson & co.
Secondly, unlike your idol Kohli both keep improving like old vine in the twilight of their career and didn't used to get out through soft dismissals.
Thirdly, they didn't get to play in Pakistan but in UAE where unlike some team they didn't get to temper soils to get humiliated in finals nor industrial fans were used back then to alter pitch conditions.

Also a simple question for you how high do you rate Sajid and Noman?? Haha...no surprise you can't answer this question as this will expose you.

This guy thinks india is the greatest team for some reason his country has 1 billion population only play cricket now has all the money with ipl still loose badly in finals even if they get good at cricket what's the big deal they only play cricket and now they have only been a good team still no where at the level of windies or australia just par with pakistan used to be in 90s

 

[kron]

This guy thinks india is the greatest team for some reason his country has 1 billion population only play cricket now has all the money with ipl still loose badly in finals even if they get good at cricket what's the big deal they only play cricket and now they have only been a good team still no where at the level of windies or australia just par with pakistan used to be in 90s

Pakistan were never close to 2015-2022 version of India in tests

Never

In t20 let’s not even talk about it

ODI too. Dhoni’s team and varoot coolie’s teams were better. Arguably rohit’s team as well.

 

[kron]

Pakistan produced many 140+ bowlers in the recent years and there are at least a dozen of bowlers in the country who can consistently bowl at this pace with some of the bowlers bowling upto 150 kph but none of the bowlers played test cricket consistently in recent years, yet they couldn't reach to that milestone.

Like who? Not in tests

4 overs is different

 

[kron]

Can india defeat Aus in ind, with the sort of pitch they used against Windies in the 2nd Test?

Ah what? Of course they can

They have done it already. India would destroy Australia on normal Asian pitches.

Rank turners Infact go against India as it’s a lottery. Hence the loss vs nz after 12 years of dominance.

 

[DeadlyVenom]

@GoUgandaCranes - as always a very detailed and good quality cost. However, one point, you mentioned Pakistan pitches were phattas before the UAE, yet link the UAE to the destruction of fast bowling.

To be honest I think this is a way ( not deliberately of course) to pin the blame on external circumstances rather than the fact we orchestrated our own demise.

 

[The Bald Eagle]

Ah what? Of course they can

They have done it already. India would destroy Australia on normal Asian pitches.

Rank turners Infact go against India as it’s a lottery. Hence the loss vs nz after 12 years of dominance.

Ok, then I think BCCI should not fudge much with the pitch as it will make BGT in India spicier too. Treat for crowd too.

 

[Devadwal]

Ok, then I think BCCI should not fudge much with the pitch as it will make BGT in India spicier too. Treat for crowd too.

Did you know that India had provided a spicy pitch in the series-deciding Test in 2017 Dharmshala test.

In the second innings, Umesh Yadav troubled the Australian batsmen with bouncers barrage.

https://www.espncricinfo.com/series/ind-v-aus-2016-17-1030197/india-vs-australia-4th-test-1062576/full-scorecard

 

[saimayubera]

Lol Mr @TexasRattlesnake you look so rattled.

Hahah...Misbah and Younis draw a series in England when you lot where getting bullied and defeated by Anderson & co.
Secondly, unlike your idol Kohli both keep improving like old vine in the twilight of their career and didn't used to get out through soft dismissals.
Thirdly, they didn't get to play in Pakistan but in UAE where unlike some team they didn't get to temper soils to get humiliated in finals nor industrial fans were used back then to alter pitch conditions.

Also a simple question for you how high do you rate Sajid and Noman?? Haha...no surprise you can't answer this question as this will expose you.

Haha @The Bald Eagle you are the one that is rattled.

Firstly, Kohli and co drew a series in England as did Gill and co when your lot were getting bullied and defeated by Crawley & co.

Secondly, even with Kohli's downfall these guys still failed in South Africa, Australia and NZ and got whitewashed in all three. Kohli in his last series had a match winning hundred at Perth and has twice as many SENA hundred (12) than Misbah and Younis combined. They didn't "improve" in their twilight years, just had the luxury of playing in UAE which like you said was "flat".

Thirdly, even if they won in UAE they were poor abroad - getting whitewashed in SA, Aus, SL and NZ and drawing in Zimbabwe. Kohli won twice in Aus, drew in SA, won twice in SL with one being an away whitewash.

And we should not even be talking about finals in that era considering that in white ball that team was constantly humiliated and kicked out in the first round, often by India.

 

[saimayubera]

This guy thinks india is the greatest team for some reason his country has 1 billion population only play cricket now has all the money with ipl still loose badly in finals even if they get good at cricket what's the big deal they only play cricket and now they have only been a good team still no where at the level of windies or australia just par with pakistan used to be in 90s

Lol no pakistan in the 90s were mediocre and never the top team. Used to lose home series to the likes of zimbabwe, sri lanka as well as aus, south africa, england etc. they were better than India that's it.

Pakistan have never had a great team in history.

And it's funny talking about losing in finals when india has won two icc trophies in 8 months, not losing a single match which is the same number of icc trophies pak has won in the last 33 years lol.

Kohli and Rohit has won more ICC trophies than entire Pakistan in the 53 year history of ICC trophies.

 

[saimayubera]

Pakistan were never close to 2015-2022 version of India in tests

Never

In t20 let’s not even talk about it

ODI too. Dhoni’s team and varoot coolie’s teams were better. Arguably rohit’s team as well.

Were never close to the 2007-2011 version of India in tests as well.

Their peak was closest to the 2001-2007 version of the Indian team. Solid but not the best.

ODIs Rohit's team is also obviously better.