Is London turning into a Third World city?

[rockyboy2018]

Hello Guys,

This is my first post, however, I have been a passerby for a long time.

Just to give you a little introduction. I am from Pakistan and currently studying in Germany more specific in Dortmund.

A couple of days ago I was there to attend a conference in London.

As a first timer, I was so excited to visit a city like London but I ended up getting a migraine within a span of few hours.

Some of the key observations I noticed.

- Seas of people everywhere.

- Buildings need cleaning.

- Bumper to bumper traffic everywhere.

- I took a tube during rush hour in the morning that was some sight for me. My exact feeling was like " You stack seas of people on top of each other and leave it for the hell to never return again."

- People are not following traffic signals. They keep walking even the lights are still red.

- Homeless/Beggars sleeping on the sidewalks just like in my hometown Karachi asking for money.

- Extremely congested city, devoid of green spaces.

- Train stations look old and dirty.

- Not easy to find trash cans.

Your thoughts, please. Has London always been like this? or catching up with third world cities because lack of interest shown by the government.

As a side question, I would be visiting the UK again during my semester break in Feburary 2019. Do you think which cities should I visit in the UK?
What about Scotland?

Thanks
Asad

 

[Dios]

Same observations can be made for New York, Tokyo or any other true metropolitan area.

 

[rockyboy2018]

Well, Singapore has a similar makeup like London but it was super clean as a city-state. Be it streets, tube stations. etc

 

[Kroll]

Far from it, what you're describing is symptomatic of any megacity around the world. Most of the investment goes to London in relation to other places in the UK - skyscrapers, Crossrail, HS2 etc. Edinburgh probably the place to visit in Scotland followed by the Loch Lomond area.

 

[sjahmed23]

Kind've sounds like NYC. Problem is too many people and more moving in.

 

[PakLFC]

Big city means big problems. With so many illegal migrants in London it's normal for it to be a dump!

 

[UP]

Visited London many times and I agree with you on some points. The city itself is a huge city - millions of people live there so you will get ghettos and ugly areas. Only Central London has its charm. East London is a real ghetto - feels like you are in some third world ghetto city.

UK cities in general are ugly and dirty. Visit countryside or towns to enjoy your stay.

 

[KingKhanWC]

London is a 2000 year old city so it doesnt have wide open modern planning as you see in some cities. Some areas are deprived and some services such as the tube need major improvments but London is arguably the best city in the world. OP should try and visit other areas of London on the next visit.

 

[Saeed]

Thats like every big city in the world. The only real issue is lack of greenery, uncleanliness and homelessness. Are you even being serious about seeing huge amount of people in a city and jam packed traffic? Despite all that London has still has higher standards of living.

 

[DeadBall]

Have been to most major cities of the world and London (lived there for almost two years) to me personally was among the worst. Although I base it upon my interactions plus other factors.

 

[faraz39]

Well, Singapore has a similar makeup like London but it was super clean as a city-state. Be it streets, tube stations. etc

Singapore is a one city country with an authoritarian gov't so they do as they as please. Jail time for littering, etc. Since it's the only city in the country, it gets all the attention.

You can't do that in democracies. But point well taken as in cleanliness is not easy to achieve.

 

[ahmedzee]

Nyc is a lot cleaner than London it Paris. That is my observation

 

[Mamoon]

Nyc is a lot cleaner than London it Paris. That is my observation

I had the opposite experience, but I have had very limited exposure to New York admittedly. I have spent a lot of time in London and I found it considerably clean compared to New York.

Paris is pretty clean as well, probably more so than London, but then again, I have only been there once.

Someone who has spent a considerable amount of time in both London and New York would be in a better position to make an assessment. Nonetheless, I was quite surprised to see how dirty New York actually is.

 

[IMMY69]

No city in the world better then London!!

 

[slipcatch]

Nyc is a lot cleaner than London it Paris. That is my observation

Nyc can’t be lot cleaner than either London or Paris

 

[Eagle_Eye]

Hello Guys,

This is my first post, however, I have been a passerby for a long time.

Just to give you a little introduction. I am from Pakistan and currently studying in Germany more specific in Dortmund.

A couple of days ago I was there to attend a conference in London.

As a first timer, I was so excited to visit a city like London but I ended up getting a migraine within a span of few hours.

Some of the key observations I noticed.

- Seas of people everywhere.

- Buildings need cleaning.

- Bumper to bumper traffic everywhere.

- I took a tube during rush hour in the morning that was some sight for me. My exact feeling was like " You stack seas of people on top of each other and leave it for the hell to never return again."

- People are not following traffic signals. They keep walking even the lights are still red.

- Homeless/Beggars sleeping on the sidewalks just like in my hometown Karachi asking for money.

- Extremely congested city, devoid of green spaces.

- Train stations look old and dirty.

- Not easy to find trash cans.

Your thoughts, please. Has London always been like this? or catching up with third world cities because lack of interest shown by the government.

As a side question, I would be visiting the UK again during my semester break in Feburary 2019. Do you think which cities should I visit in the UK?
What about Scotland?

Thanks
Asad

Almost all German cities were destroyed during WW2 and were rebuilt thereafter. The infrastructure is being upgraded as some of it is from Victorian times.

I find few of your points puzzling... where were you staying and did you not plan your trip?

The are two huge parks to the western side of central London. If you venture little further, you will find lot of greenery. The beggars are usually Europeans...rough sleepers are usually outsiders.

Germany is certifiably incredibly boring and you expected similar sedate atmosphere in London?

Leave aside Eastern and Southern Europeans and take Northeren Europeans, who are on par in terms of economic background.... it is one of the only cities in Europe that has huge concentrations of different northern Europeans living in it, second only to Paris for having the number of French speakers (400,000). Can't be that bad if huge swathes are voluntarily making it their home.

 

[Rayyman]

New York City is far ahead of every place.

 

[IMMY69]

Well, Singapore has a similar makeup like London but it was super clean as a city-state. Be it streets, tube stations. etc

I was going to reply to your properly until I read this line...

 

[rockyboy2018]

It is not about living in Germany at all. I also traveled to other European countries such as Italy, France, Austria, Belgium, Netherlands, and Switzerland. Cities did not look there as miserable as London.

It is just that I was expecting some meticulously clean city like those of European cities.

Nevertheless, it is really amazing for me to see how people keep their sanity intact after living there for years. I was like wherever you went seas of people were stalking after you and there was no hiding for you.

Anyways it is really nice to read your thoughts regarding this. I think I need to keep my expectations low about old/famous cities.

 

[DeadBall]

It is not about living in Germany at all. I also traveled to other European countries such as Italy, France, Austria, Belgium, Netherlands, and Switzerland. Cities did not look there as miserable as London.

This, although I couldn't put my finger on it, there was definitely something more melancholy in the air. Could be a British thing though.

 

[Markhor]

London is too congested.

Come up North to places like the Yorkshire Dales - clean air and beautiful environments. London isn't the whole of the UK as much as it's inhabitants would like you to believe.

 

[gazza619]

A very good and sensible first post.

I moved to the UK in 2004. London was for a massive upgrade for me. The transport system, the overall cleanliness, hygiene, discipline..Obviously I was comparing it to Pakistan...

But with passing years it was getting more and more congested. Things were not as bad in 2004. Even the rush hour tube journeys were bearable. But last year I decided enough is enough so I decided to move to Birmingham. I know Birmingham does not have the best reputation and there are many problems but it is a booming city. I moved to a nicer part of Birmingham and am glad I made the move. You can drive 100 miles within 90 minutes anywhere with no problems. More space on the trains. More space to park your car. Its less congested so naturally its a lot cleaner.

 

[Thulsa]

It is not about living in Germany at all. I also traveled to other European countries such as Italy, France, Austria, Belgium, Netherlands, and Switzerland. Cities did not look there as miserable as London.

It is just that I was expecting some meticulously clean city like those of European cities.

Nevertheless, it is really amazing for me to see how people keep their sanity intact after living there for years. I was like wherever you went seas of people were stalking after you and there was no hiding for you.

Anyways it is really nice to read your thoughts regarding this. I think I need to keep my expectations low about old/famous cities.

You spent one day in London. What people like yourself don’t realise is the sheer scale of London - London is more than Leicester Square/Westminister/Oxford Street and one week isn’t enough to see what’s on offer let alone a flying visit for a conference.

I have lived and own property in London, NY, SAN Francisco, Paris, Istanbul, Zurich, Rome and Sydney. Of all the places I have had the fortune to reside in London is by far my favourite City. Architecture, history, culture, diversity - it is unrivalled.

Lack of greenery? I have yet to see any of the above rival Richmond Park in Autumn, or Hampstead Heath in the Summer.

Cleanliness? Richmond Hill or Wimbledon village are stunning.

Charm? Try the open air opera in Holland Park.

To come to the conclusion you have tells me you haven’t seen London to appreciate all it has to offer and instead have stuck to the tourist traps.

 

[ElRaja]

- Seas of people everywhere.

- Buildings need cleaning.

- Bumper to bumper traffic everywhere.

- I took a tube during rush hour in the morning that was some sight for me. My exact feeling was like " You stack seas of people on top of each other and leave it for the hell to never return again."

- People are not following traffic signals. They keep walking even the lights are still red.

- Homeless/Beggars sleeping on the sidewalks just like in my hometown Karachi asking for money.

- Extremely congested city, devoid of green spaces.

- Train stations look old and dirty.

- Not easy to find trash cans.

Your thoughts, please. Has London always been like this? or catching up with third world cities because lack of interest shown by the government.

the London commuter belt has about 14 million people, many of whom travel into the city centre for work, hence the sea of people, talk a walk around the city at night (except friday, saturday) and its deserted.

buildings may not be the cleanest, but ive been to dirtier cities in europe, id say its average.

the tube is always rammed, building tunnels below the city is a very slow process and theres no space to build above land.

London pedestrian / cyclists always do there own thing, its been like that forever.

a lot of the beggars on London's streets are not local, but that's a topic for another time.

theres plenty of green spaces, u just have to look slightly outside the centre.

i agree on last point, not enough trash cans, London needs more.

yes London has pretty much been like this for the twenty odd years ive been here. its not perfect, but it functions decently well for city this size.

 

[Pakistanian]

Big cities in America used to be super dirty in the 1800s until they finally started cleaning them and this happened after the cities got bigger. NYC used to be a dump from what I've heard and then in the 90s/2000s it got cleaned up by Giuliani and Bloomberg.

 

[Halaribo]

Hello Guys,

This is my first post, however, I have been a passerby for a long time.

Just to give you a little introduction. I am from Pakistan and currently studying in Germany more specific in Dortmund.

A couple of days ago I was there to attend a conference in London.

As a first timer, I was so excited to visit a city like London but I ended up getting a migraine within a span of few hours.

Some of the key observations I noticed.

- Seas of people everywhere.

- Buildings need cleaning.

- Bumper to bumper traffic everywhere.

- I took a tube during rush hour in the morning that was some sight for me. My exact feeling was like " You stack seas of people on top of each other and leave it for the hell to never return again."

- People are not following traffic signals. They keep walking even the lights are still red.

- Homeless/Beggars sleeping on the sidewalks just like in my hometown Karachi asking for money.

- Extremely congested city, devoid of green spaces.

- Train stations look old and dirty.

- Not easy to find trash cans.

Your thoughts, please. Has London always been like this? or catching up with third world cities because lack of interest shown by the government.

As a side question, I would be visiting the UK again during my semester break in Feburary 2019. Do you think which cities should I visit in the UK?
What about Scotland?

Thanks
Asad

Where exactly did you go?

As someome commented above, London is huge.

 

[ahmedzee]

I had the opposite experience, but I have had very limited exposure to New York admittedly. I have spent a lot of time in London and I found it considerably clean compared to New York.

Paris is pretty clean as well, probably more so than London, but then again, I have only been there once.

Someone who has spent a considerable amount of time in both London and New York would be in a better position to make an assessment. Nonetheless, I was quite surprised to see how dirty New York actually is.

Nyc can’t be lot cleaner than either London or Paris

Spent a lot of time in London and New York. Trust me, London was far dirtier than NYC. Infact I kept visiting both cities and found that London Infact regressed.

 

[Suleiman]

New York is a league above London these days. People come to NYC from all over the world to make a name for themselves. Nobody goes to London anymore other than few charsis and bums in Pakistan who have heard the name and know a cousin of a cousin's friend who lives there and got them an easy trip at the back of a container.

Overall though, German cities are pretty far up there as the best metropolitan areas.

 

[slipcatch]

Spent a lot of time in London and New York. Trust me, London was far dirtier than NYC. Infact I kept visiting both cities and found that London Infact regressed.

Where in NYC?

Currently in NYC and tell you what I have been to lots of Caribbean countries and other 3rd world countries and you can find lots of area in NYC that look similar to those countries.

Off course many big cities have run down area but NYC is far worse than London.

 

[CricketCartoons]

problem with some people from third world immigrants is that they bring third world to first world.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

If the third world looked like London, then we would have eradicated chronic poverty and malnourishment across the globe. That's not to say that London doesn't have it's problems, but the comparison is absurd.

 

[Napa]

- I took a tube during rush hour in the morning that was some sight for me. My exact feeling was like " You stack seas of people on top of each other and leave it for the hell to never return again."

You should be careful using the London tube. If you walk past a woman, as you will certainly have to, you may be accused of sex assault, and face financial ruin defending yourself from the crazy Crown Prosecution Service.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uk...ion-cleared-of-bizarre-sex-assault-claim.html

 

[Robert]

After decades living in London, Mrs Robert and I moved to the country. There are just too many people in London now, it has got to the point where you have to fight for every inch of space.

As for the dirt, Londoners don’t take pride in their city like Parisiennes. They would have to pay more council tax and employ more street sweepers and clean more buildings more often.

 

[Devilsadvokat]

Not been to many countries but Sweden's capital Stockholm was the cleanest, most modern run capital. I don't know what it is like now, I was there a few times in early early nineties.

I smoked and could not find a bin nor butts on the streets, had me thinking what do ppl do with their butts.

No rubbish of any type on streets, I think fly-tipping would have been unheard and unthought off.

I like the fact that there underground system used escalators that only worked when someone stepped onto them.

And that it was the first time I see toilet seats that were square in shape, in England up to that time it was the usual ovalish shape. I thought chairs are usually square/slight rectangle and therefore square toilet seats made great sense.

Anyways I digress, let's talk about the dirt in London, it's more pressing than the dead teenagers.

 

[Robert]

Cleanest and nicest city I ever visited is Toronto.

 

[Robert]

You should be careful using the London tube. If you walk past a woman, as you will certainly have to, you may be accused of sex assault, and face financial ruin defending yourself from the crazy Crown Prosecution Service.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uk...ion-cleared-of-bizarre-sex-assault-claim.html

Weird. I have walked past millions of women in London and none accused me.

 

[Devilsadvokat]

Weird. I have walked past millions of women in London and none accused me.

Shocking!!!

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

After decades living in London, Mrs Robert and I moved to the country. There are just too many people in London now, it has got to the point where you have to fight for every inch of space.

As for the dirt, Londoners don’t take pride in their city like Parisiennes. They would have to pay more council tax and employ more street sweepers and clean more buildings more often.

This is a hot topic at the moment, it's become quite fashionable for people to start moving to the country, and there are obvious attractions, but also some disadvantages. Might be worth a topic in it's own right, but any area which has less population is obviously going to be easier to keep clean, especially since most of the vibrant city life like restaurants, public transport and high streets are missing.

 

[Rana]

London is life! Would rather die than live in any other city!

 

[Gabbar Singh]

problem with some people from third world immigrants is that they bring third world to first world.

The areas with the greatest number of immigrants do tend to be the dirtiest however what came first, the immigrants or the dirtiness? Historically immigrants have always lived in the poorest areas of cities when they first arrive.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

The areas with the greatest number of immigrants do tend to be the dirtiest however what came first, the immigrants or the dirtiness? Historically immigrants have always lived in the poorest areas of cities when they first arrive.

If you actually lived in the UK you would realise that often it is immigrants that revitalise previously broken areas. Some of the worst areas in the inner cities which were filled with boarded up windows and glue sniffers have become bustling thriving centres, I have witnessed it personally. Yes there is dirt and rubbish which comes along with it, but if you saw these places before they were basically no go zones. Of course some immigrants are better in this regard than others, but it is probably the same the world over.

 

[the Great Khan]

firstly lets stop using the word "third world" its blatantly racist. Poor countries or poorer countries is about right.

As for London, well its not the cleanest but its good in alot of areas. NYC especially manhatten and such areas is very nice but then places in queens and jamaica etc can be pretty rough..

As for the public transport well im dreading it as I'll be travelling to london for work next year very often..so im dreading the commute and tube in the morning..

I found dubai to be very clean and Oslo was amazing..Europe is by far cleaner and more developed than the uk..but places outside of london are amazing e.g. inverness, the peak district and the lakes..lovely places..

 

[Devilsadvokat]

This is a hot topic at the moment, it's become quite fashionable for people to start moving to the country, and there are obvious attractions

It's called white flight, to get away from the likes of you.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

It's called white flight, to get away from the likes of you.

That's not going to work, I did the white flight thing as well so my neighbours are all still white. I'm not racist though, I am happy to live among Pakistanis, only thing which would make me put up a for sale sign is if a brown sahib moved in next door. Not planning on moving any time soon are you?

 

[Devilsadvokat]

That's not going to work, I did the white flight thing as well so my neighbours are all still white. I'm not racist though, I am happy to live among Pakistanis, only thing which would make me put up a for sale sign is if a brown sahib moved in next door. Not planning on moving any time soon are you.

What is a brown sahib as opposed to a Pakistani?

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

What is a brown sahib as opposed to a Pakistani?

Brown sahib is a mentality not a nationality. Think of the British Raj and the pecking order, and you should get the idea.

 

[Devilsadvokat]

Brown sahib is a mentality not a nationality. Think of the British Raj and the pecking order, and you should get the idea.

So you are what some racists would call a coconut?

 

[enkidu_]

The areas with the greatest number of immigrants do tend to be the dirtiest however what came first, the immigrants or the dirtiness? Historically immigrants have always lived in the poorest areas of cities when they first arrive.

Yes I remember Thomas Sowell (a conservative American intellectual) who in his book on race & economics basically describe how the first Irish migrants (labor force) to London live, and it was way, way worse than any "third world" migrant could do in a modern society. Think of the Romanis on steroids in terms of dirtiness and incivility.

Also Niall Ferguson (another conservative, this time British, intellectual) in his book "Civilization" says that EVERY European capital as LATE as the 18th century (so the "Age of Enlightenment") was WAY MORE violent than DETROIT at its WORST in terms of criminality.

Europeans have always been the dirtiest and most violent race, these few last centuries are an anathema to their deep ontology.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

So you are what some racists would call a coconut?

A coconut is usually the one who would need to ask what's the difference between a brown sahib and a Pakistani.

 

[chacha kashmiri]

I can’t believe this is really a thread
Or that we have 48 replies on it


What the flip

 

[asifp]

First lets differentiate between Central London and the greater London Area, otherwise one should also include Queens, Bronx etc for NYC as well.

I have been lucky enough to visit a lot of big cities and London pretty much has everyone beat. The big negative of London is high taxes and high cost of living. Outside of that.

Food scene...probably the best in the world. Only NYC can compete
Theatre and Shows.......same as above. NYC and London are best in the world
Public transport...Don't think any other city of 10m comes close. Tube + Bus London has everyone beat
Cultures....over 200 nationalities in London, gives the city serious charm and diversity
Green Spaces...unlike one big park, London has green spaces and park all over the city

It is a city you can just keep on walking for hours and still find it fascinating. So much variety.

Last few years the city has seen a serious upgrade. Just go check out the area around St Pauls duing lunch hour or the new Kings Cross

No other city competes with this cosmopolitan city.

Heck I go as far as to say London is the best city in the world for Muslims. You can practice your religion (sunni or shia) with complete freedom and learn as much as you want. No fear of persecutions or backlash like many cities in the Muslim world itself. My friends would pray in Regents park right after playing sports and on one would even take a second look!

 

[Napa]

Brown sahib is a mentality not a nationality. Think of the British Raj and the pecking order, and you should get the idea.

I would say a Brown Sahib is one who spends an inordinate amount of his waking hours reminiscing about the British Raj.

So you are what some racists would call a coconut?

If there was a category like a historical coconut, that would be a perfect fit

 

[LongHorn]

I found dubai to be very clean and Oslo was amazing..Europe is by far cleaner and more developed than the uk..but places outside of london are amazing e.g. inverness, the peak district and the lakes..lovely places..

The reason for cleanliness varies ....

Dubai invests a lot of money in cleaners.... otherwise a lot of the people there, desis and Arabs in particular are more than happy to throw their trash on the streets. Just see some of the campsites there with disgusting trash left by campers

In places like Oslo, I would assume the sense of civic pride is higher....

I found the cleaner parts of London cleaner than the cleaner parts of NYC.

And trashbins are quite rare in London, remember reading somewhere they are a potential spot for placing devices and as such are rare since the IRA days. ..... don't know how true that is

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

The reason for cleanliness varies ....

Dubai invests a lot of money in cleaners.... otherwise a lot of the people there, desis and Arabs in particular are more than happy to throw their trash on the streets. Just see some of the campsites there with disgusting trash left by campers

In places like Oslo, I would assume the sense of civic pride is higher....

I found the cleaner parts of London cleaner than the cleaner parts of NYC.

And trashbins are quite rare in London, remember reading somewhere they are a potential spot for placing devices and as such are rare since the IRA days. ..... don't know how true that is

You will find this disgusting attitude towards public trash in the poorer communities of Britain as well in some of the council estates, but as a whole, we British have developed a civic pride in our surroundings that those in the undeveloped world still have no concept of.

 

[rockyboy2018]

On a humor side, after watching German girls on a daily basis then watching British girls I guess that also contributed a lot to my mental stress subconsciously. I don't know why I got fed up with the city so quickly. It could be one of the reasons I don't know.

 

[Devilsadvokat]

On a humor side, after watching German girls on a daily basis then watching British girls I guess that also contributed a lot to my mental stress subconsciously. I don't know why I got fed up with the city so quickly. It could be one of the reasons I don't know.

I'm assuming you saying German girls are better? Try Sweden.

 

[Big Mac]

A very good and sensible first post.

I moved to the UK in 2004. London was for a massive upgrade for me. The transport system, the overall cleanliness, hygiene, discipline..Obviously I was comparing it to Pakistan...

But with passing years it was getting more and more congested. Things were not as bad in 2004. Even the rush hour tube journeys were bearable. But last year I decided enough is enough so I decided to move to Birmingham. I know Birmingham does not have the best reputation and there are many problems but it is a booming city. I moved to a nicer part of Birmingham and am glad I made the move. You can drive 100 miles within 90 minutes anywhere with no problems. More space on the trains. More space to park your car. Its less congested so naturally its a lot cleaner.

Congrats on moving to the best city in the world

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

This thread always makes me laugh whenever it is bumped. 90% of the posters who actually live in the third world would probably give their right arm to move to one of the world's premier cities.

 

[Vegitto1]

I could see why the OP might feel that way as majority of the UK Indian population is situated in London, hence it can come across as a third world city.

However, it is still very much 1st world right now.