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Is Misbah-ul-Haq's judgement correct about all-rounders?

Junaids

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In Misbah-ul-Haq's most recent public comments he has made the assertion that to be selected as an all-rounder, a player must either justify selection as a batsman alone or as a bowler alone.

It is an interesting point of view, and I can see how that could work in Asia.

But it also explains why the Test teams that he captained in Australia, New Zealand and South Africa - and actually England outside London - were so unbalanced, and lacked the ability to hold out for draws, as was so embarrassingly seen in the Second Tests in both Australia and New Zealand in late 2016, when the middle-order abruptly became a lengthy tail.

My argument is the opposite: in Tests and in 20 and 50 over cricket it is generally better to pick an all-rounder than your sixth best batsman or your fifth best bowler.

Why is this the case?

1. Pakistan's specialist batting rarely includes more than three international quality batsmen. The sixth and seventh most productive batsmen rarely deliver more runs than an all-rounder would.

We saw this in South Africa in the last Test series, where the horrible technical flaws of Fakhar Zaman and the remains of the elderly Azhar Ali delivered fewer runs than Shadab Khan.

But we also saw this on the 2016-17 tour of Australia, where Mohammad Amir actually scored more runs in three Tests than the geriatric Misbah himself did.


2. All-rounders are insurance against the Kookaburra ball in Tests. In the World Test Championship series in Australia and New Zealand, the opposition pace attacks are likely to be lethal for 20 overs, after which the ball will go soft and batting will be easy.

The opposition will probably reduce Pakistan to 50-4 after 20 overs. I would argue that at this point you need a keeper (Rizwan) who bats better than Sarfraz, plus all-rounders like Shadab and Faheem, to ensure that the batting can deliver significant runs all the way down the order - like Shadab's unbeaten half-century with the tail in South Africa.

3. Are the specialist bowlers much better than the all-rounders anyway?

I can see that Shaheen Shah Afridi and Mohammad Abbas start outside Asia. And that Yasir Shah starts in Asia.

But the cold hard facts are that Shadab Khan (in England, Ireland and South Africa) has a superior Test record to Yasir Shah (in England, New Zealand and Australia).

And Faheem Ashraf took 6-99 in the last Test in South Africa, and outbowled the specialist bowlers.

4. All-rounders keep the specialist bowlers fresh
On the 2016-17 tour of Australia the captain (Misbah) as is his right over-ruled the coach (Mickey Arthur) by going in with a 4 man attack instead of a 5 man attack.

But one of the four bowlers was the hapless Yasir Shah, who as usual averaged 95 runs per wicket outside Asia.

The specialist quicks were massively overbowled, and having Yasir at the other end meant shorter rest between overs.

At the start of the series both Amir and Wahab took 4 wickets in the First Innings of the First Test. But overuse reduced their speed, their accuracy and their menace as the series went on.

At Brisbane in November, Shaheen Shah Afridi is going to take more wickets bowling 4 four over spells at 145K in a day rather than bowling 4 six over spells at 133K. Just like Mitchell Johnson.

But that requires a fourth quick to share the bowling load to keep SSA fresh.
 
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I would argue that a Test team in particular should ideally feature a pair of all-rounders.

My model would be:

5 specialist batsmen
1 batsman-wicketkeeper (Like Rizwan, not Sarfraz - this player must be capable of huge centuries).
2 all-rounders
3 specialist bowlers.

The type of all-rounder depends upon the location.

In Asia, I would argue for a Test bowling attack of:
1 specialist quick (e.g. Abbas)
1 quick all-rounder (e.g. Faheem or Hasan Ali if he learns to bat properly)
2 specialist spinners (Yasir and an off-spinner)
1 spin all-rounder (Imad Wasim or similar).

In Australia or New Zealand, I would argue for
3 specialist quicks (Abbas, SSA, Amir until Hasnain develops)
1 quick all-rounder (Faheem)
1 spin all-rounder (Shadab)

But go back to the period 1999-2005.

Wasim Akram was finished, Waqar was a shadow of himself.

Shoaib Akhtar was at his peak, but the next best quick was miles behind until Asif emerged in 2005.

Mushtaq Ahmed was out of favour, and Saqlain was really an Asia-specialist.

Again, I would argue that Pakistan should ALWAYS have picked 2 out of Azhar Mahmood, Abdul Razzaq and Shahid Afridi in every Test.

But they tended to view Azhar and Razzaq as alternatives, rather than as a pair of bowlers who could reduce the load on Shoaib Akhtar and allow him to bowl shorter spells.

Outside Asia I would even have been tempted to pick all 3 of Razzaq, Azhar and Afridi batting at 7, 8 and 9.

I'm just unconvinced by the idea that an all-rounder needs to be good enough to be a specialist batsman or bowler.

My argument is that you pick all-rounders in pairs, and they each need a bare minimum of being half as good as a specialist with both bat and ball.
 
All-rounder should not be bits and pieces, mediocre in all the facets, a true railu katta.

I'm glad Misbah is against railu kattas who are good for nothing. Imran Khan also has the same concept. Imran or Botham would have never become great allrounders if they were not great in at least one facet.

Enough with bits and pieces mediocrity.
 
An allrounder should be good at one facet of the game and at least average at the other, like Imran Khan who could walk into any side with his bowling alone and was also a good batsman.
or
They should be decent at both (like Ben Stokes) but never just average at both (a bits and pieces cricketer).

In Pakistan Faheem isn't really an allrounder he's below average at both batting and bowling. Aamer Yamin is a batting allrounder, he has an average of 37 in first class which is pretty good considering how poor the pitches have been in domestic cricket in the last few years.

Shadab is a good bowler who has the potential to also be a good batsman in all formats of the game. If Shadab receives the correct guidance, he could be a great all rounder for Pakistan.
 
Misbah is right about all rounders. You are wrong about how all rounders should be selected.
 
Sorry, but you are wrong.

If you take a look at the greatest all-rounders of the past, none of them were selected in the team because they were all-rounders. They came into the team as specialists. Imran khan, Hadlee, Botham, Kapil were selected as specialist bowlers. Sobbers and Kallis came into the team as specialist batsmen.

This concept of selecting a player because he is an all-rounder is new in cricket and it has failed spectacularly for every team that tried it. Faheem ashraf, Pandya, stoinis, grandhomme, phenylkwayo, chris morris do not show up for the team in critical situations either as bowlers or batsmen.

This half-n-half player model can at best work in T20s where often times you need short bursts of good performance, but it doesnt work in ODIs and if you adopt it in tests, you are basically going with 10 players, as simple as that.
 
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Misbah is HUNDRED % correct.

For Test matches, you don't need bits & pieces all-rounders for the sake of it. If there is no genuine all-rounders available, better pick 6 batsmen and share the load of 5th bowler among 3-4 of them - for PAK's case, Azhar, Haris, Asad, Shan and Fakhar are more than enough for 10-12 overs in a day. That great AUS & WIN side didn't have any such "all-rounders", rather they had few bowlers like Warne, Lee, Gillespe, Marshall, Holding, Ambrose ... who could hold the bat & contribute; while at other end they had Waugh twins, Lehman, Katich, Clarke, Viv, Hooper, Lloyd, Gomez - batsmen who were good enough to make the XI on batting merit, but could offer 10-12 overs/innings.

For T20, it's even less important to pick "all-rounders" for the batting depth - 6 batsmen including WK is enough to be accommodated in 20 overs, while 5 specialist bowlers are must. If any of the confirmed bowlers are as capable as Shakib or Rashid or Imad or Stokes or Holder, it's a bonus. We tried with 9 batsmen and 4 of them all-rounders - AFGs posted 160+ from 40-4 in 7 overs, bashing the "all-rounders".

ODI is the only format where, subject to the condition, may be, may be one ac think of 5+1+2/3+3/2 combination, but still I prefer at least 30 genuine overs from specialist bowlers regardless of their batting. For a team like PAK, at least 40, preferably 50 overs should be planned by specialists - strategy should be to close the game in one innings. In any case, PAK is not going to chase 300+ much regardless of how many batsmen are there .... least said about a line-up with Faheem & Shadab as all-rounders at 8 & 9 to contribute with bat - most times, Hasan Ali is more effective with bat, in that role.
 
No, a true all-rounder is he who can hold his own in both facets as a batsman and as a bowler.

Ben Stokes is an all-rounder
 
I agree, You should be good enough as a batsman or bowler but you should be able to win a match with a bat or ball.

True Allrounders:
Imran Khan,
Richard Hadlee,
Ian Botham,
Ben Stokes,
Moeen Ali,
Kapil Dev,
Clive Rice.
Shane Watson
V. Philander
Flintoff?

Not Allrounders:
Wasim Akram,
Shahid Afridi - was never good at both... one aspect always was lacking.
KP,
Joe Root,
Ashwin,
Woakes,
Starc
 
I agreement with Misbah's assessment. Test is a game of specialists and that's what this team needs. Not mediocre players like Faheem who can neither bat well or bowl well get selected.

7 batsmen and 4 bowlers is the way to go.
 
All rounders are the need of the age, now we have to balance the team and without an all rounder it tilt to down one side.

At least 2 all rounders must be in 16 squad. 1 spin option and the other is pacer.

But we lack clearly in both. No real option.

Need to develop an all rounder is as high as never before.

To compete other teams on non Asian soil a pacer all rounder is missing and Faheem Ashraf is definitely
not the right option.
 
I agree with Misbah

Tell me any no1 ranked test team in history with bits and pieces AR? You will get your answer
 
I agree with Misbah

Tell me any no1 ranked test team in history with bits and pieces AR? You will get your answer
Who said bits and pieces? The sum total of batting and bowling just needs to add up to 1 specialist.

A batting all-rounder can bat at 6 in Tests and average at least 35 with the bat and 40 with the ball, but be capable of bowling 10-12 overs per day. Like Mitch Marsh eventually will, and Abdul Razzaq should have.
(4/5 of a batsman, 1/2 of a bowler)

A balanced all-rounder like Kapil Dev or Ian Botham is a rarer beast: capable of averaging 32-35 with the bat but bowling 20 overs per day as a frontline bowler.
(2/3 of a batsman, 2/3 of a bowler

A bowling all-rounder is more like Wasim Akram or Richard Hadlee: an absolute frontline bowling specialist who can also score the odd fifty and average 25+ with the bat.
(1/2 a batsman, 4/5 of a bowler).

These three types of all-rounder are not the same, but are all more valuable than a sixth batsman or a fifth bowler.
 
Who said bits and pieces? The sum total of batting and bowling just needs to add up to 1 specialist.

A batting all-rounder can bat at 6 in Tests and average at least 35 with the bat and 40 with the ball, but be capable of bowling 10-12 overs per day. Like Mitch Marsh eventually will, and Abdul Razzaq should have.
(4/5 of a batsman, 1/2 of a bowler)

A balanced all-rounder like Kapil Dev or Ian Botham is a rarer beast: capable of averaging 32-35 with the bat but bowling 20 overs per day as a frontline bowler.
(2/3 of a batsman, 2/3 of a bowler

A bowling all-rounder is more like Wasim Akram or Richard Hadlee: an absolute frontline bowling specialist who can also score the odd fifty and average 25+ with the bat.
(1/2 a batsman, 4/5 of a bowler).

These three types of all-rounder are not the same, but are all more valuable than a sixth batsman or a fifth bowler.
in which category mentioned above your favourite AR fahim ashraf fall.
 
Faheem avg 27+ with the ball in domestic cricket where likes of Hammad Azam are averaging 21.
 
Misbah is HUNDRED % correct.

For Test matches, you don't need bits & pieces all-rounders for the sake of it. If there is no genuine all-rounders available, better pick 6 batsmen and share the load of 5th bowler among 3-4 of them - for PAK's case, Azhar, Haris, Asad, Shan and Fakhar are more than enough for 10-12 overs in a day. That great AUS & WIN side didn't have any such "all-rounders", rather they had few bowlers like Warne, Lee, Gillespe, Marshall, Holding, Ambrose ... who could hold the bat & contribute; while at other end they had Waugh twins, Lehman, Katich, Clarke, Viv, Hooper, Lloyd, Gomez - batsmen who were good enough to make the XI on batting merit, but could offer 10-12 overs/innings.

For T20, it's even less important to pick "all-rounders" for the batting depth - 6 batsmen including WK is enough to be accommodated in 20 overs, while 5 specialist bowlers are must. If any of the confirmed bowlers are as capable as Shakib or Rashid or Imad or Stokes or Holder, it's a bonus. We tried with 9 batsmen and 4 of them all-rounders - AFGs posted 160+ from 40-4 in 7 overs, bashing the "all-rounders".

ODI is the only format where, subject to the condition, may be, may be one ac think of 5+1+2/3+3/2 combination, but still I prefer at least 30 genuine overs from specialist bowlers regardless of their batting. For a team like PAK, at least 40, preferably 50 overs should be planned by specialists - strategy should be to close the game in one innings. In any case, PAK is not going to chase 300+ much regardless of how many batsmen are there .... least said about a line-up with Faheem & Shadab as all-rounders at 8 & 9 to contribute with bat - most times, Hasan Ali is more effective with bat, in that role.

He will never learn. His team just lost their precious ashes to the team who had 4 specialist bowlers. Junaids goes all on about batting to 9 and having all rounders, don’t see England even close to the top of the test rankings despite him saying this formula works!!!
 
He will never learn. His team just lost their precious ashes to the team who had 4 specialist bowlers. Junaids goes all on about batting to 9 and having all rounders, don’t see England even close to the top of the test rankings despite him saying this formula works!!!
But I want 5 specialist batsmen: England only had Burns, Denley and Root!
 
Cant blame him in trying to prefer decent batting depth when he had to captain a side in WC 2015 with Afridi coming in at no 7 and Wahab Riaz coming in at no 8. :wy
 
When you AR such as Faheem and Shadab then Misbah's strategy is fine.
In Tests in AU/SA/NZ/EN/IR......

Shadab Khan has a better bowling record than Yasir Shah, and a better batting record than almost any of the batsmen.
 
Shadab , Faheem , Hassan , Aamir at 7 , 8 , 9 , 10 in OD is pretty good. I do not think this needs to be tinkered.
 
In Tests in AU/SA/NZ/EN/IR......

Shadab Khan has a better bowling record than Yasir Shah, and a better batting record than almost any of the batsmen.

I am kinda confused by your post Junaids. It will be clearer to me if you could give your starting test lineups for Dubai and Perth.
 
I am kinda confused by your post Junaids. It will be clearer to me if you could give your starting test lineups for Dubai and Perth.
Your wish is my command!

1. For the World Test Championship matches in Australia.

1. Sami Aslam
2. Mohammad Rizwan (wk)
3. Shan Masood (c)
4. Babar Azam
5. Haris Sohail
6. Umar Akmal
7. Shadab Khan (AR1)
8. Faheem Ashraf (AR2)
9. Mohammad Amir
10. Shaheen Shah Afridi
11. Mohammad Abbas (Adelaide) / Ehsan Adil (Brisbane)

For the WTC Tests v Sri Lanka in the UAE

1. Sami Aslam
2. Shan Masood
3. Mohammad Rizwan (wk)
4. Haris Sohail
5. Babar Azam
6. Umar Akmal
7. Imad Wasim (AR)
8. Zafar Gohar
9. Yasir Shah
10. Rahat Ali
11. Mohammad Abbas

I use all-rounders to make sure that in Asia I have a third spinner and outside Asia I have a fourth quick.

And in Asia one quick is always a leftie to create rough for my non-existent off-spinner (whom I would love to select instead of Imad Wasim).
 
An allrounder should have the ability to make it into the team as a specialist in one facet of the game. 1/2 a bolwer and 1/2 a batsman does not make a full player, it still only makes half a player in cricket.

Shadab is the only one who fits this category, his legspin is good enough to get him in the team just by that. Faheem is a below average bowler and a tail ender with the bat in limited overs cricket. He might be better in first class, but still not good enough for the test team.

If Pakistan can pick good batsmen then Shadab can bat at 7 with 4 specialist bowlers at 8-11. An allrounder should not be picked just because he is an allrounder and the team lacks allrounders, but an allrounder should be picked if they are genuinely good, otherwise go with specialist players.
 
In tests there should be no arguments. Unless you have a ben stokes type allrounder you select only specialists.
 
Your wish is my command!

1. For the World Test Championship matches in Australia.

1. Sami Aslam
2. Mohammad Rizwan (wk)
3. Shan Masood (c)
4. Babar Azam
5. Haris Sohail
6. Umar Akmal
7. Shadab Khan (AR1)
8. Faheem Ashraf (AR2)
9. Mohammad Amir
10. Shaheen Shah Afridi
11. Mohammad Abbas (Adelaide) / Ehsan Adil (Brisbane)

For the WTC Tests v Sri Lanka in the UAE

1. Sami Aslam
2. Shan Masood
3. Mohammad Rizwan (wk)
4. Haris Sohail
5. Babar Azam
6. Umar Akmal
7. Imad Wasim (AR)
8. Zafar Gohar
9. Yasir Shah
10. Rahat Ali
11. Mohammad Abbas

I use all-rounders to make sure that in Asia I have a third spinner and outside Asia I have a fourth quick.

And in Asia one quick is always a leftie to create rough for my non-existent off-spinner (whom I would love to select instead of Imad Wasim).

Thank you Junaids. Very helpful.

Quite a departure from normal thinking. For the record, I agree with you on the role of all rounders. They tend to stick around, sometimes more than normal batsmen, and also provide breakthroughs+ time to rest for main bowlers.

I do think dropping Sarfaraz is a non starter since he is the captain. We do need to work within the confines of the chips we have been given.

I wholeheartedly endorse not taking Yasir to Australia though. He can't deliver the spells Mushtaq did - because pitches have changed substantially and Yasir doesn't have the same variety.

Shan Masood is an anomaly for me. Much rather have him than Fakhar - so he has my vote.
 
For all my fellow PPers who agree with Misbah, just bear in mind if every coach, captain and selector had this mentality, Ben Stokes would never have made it in tests, as he averages 35 with the bat and 32 with the ball in the longer format of the game. Neither of those numbers are good enough to make a top 5 test side (like England) as a standalone batsman or bowler. If however his batting and bowling averages were 40+ and/or sub-30 (respectively), then he would make the team on stats alone.

It's not all about stats but actually about assessing what the ceiling is for the cricketer and how likely they are to accomplish this. You can't expect all All-rounders to burst into the scene and suddenly start averaging 40+ with the bat and/or sub-30 with the ball from the get go.

With Ben Stokes, I expect him to finish with a batting average in the low 40s and a bowling average of around 28-30 and thus go down as one of the greats of the game. This goes to show how flawed Misbah's thinking is, it's not all about how you start but more about how you develop and the overall record you end up with.

It's easy to agree with him, when you consider the most prominent of all-rounders who have featured for Pakistan in the last couple of years are Shadab Khan and Faheem Ashraf, who are both very medicore.

I agree with [MENTION=132916]Junaids[/MENTION]
 
For all my fellow PPers who agree with Misbah, just bear in mind if every coach, captain and selector had this mentality, Ben Stokes would never have made it in tests, as he averages 35 with the bat and 32 with the ball in the longer format of the game. Neither of those numbers are good enough to make a top 5 test side (like England) as a standalone batsman or bowler. If however his batting and bowling averages were 40+ and/or sub-30 (respectively), then he would make the team on stats alone.

It's not all about stats but actually about assessing what the ceiling is for the cricketer and how likely they are to accomplish this. You can't expect all All-rounders to burst into the scene and suddenly start averaging 40+ with the bat and/or sub-30 with the ball from the get go.

With Ben Stokes, I expect him to finish with a batting average in the low 40s and a bowling average of around 28-30 and thus go down as one of the greats of the game. This goes to show how flawed Misbah's thinking is, it's not all about how you start but more about how you develop and the overall record you end up with.

It's easy to agree with him, when you consider the most prominent of all-rounders who have featured for Pakistan in the last couple of years are Shadab Khan and Faheem Ashraf, who are both very mediocre.

I agree with [MENTION=132916]Junaids[/MENTION]

With Stokes, you could claim that he made it into the England team based on his hard hitting batting style in ODIs and easily made it in the team just on that basis. I mean at that time his competition was Luke Wright, Ravi Bopara and Samit Patel (all inferior lower middle order batsmens). Its only afterwards you saw him contribute with his bowling, although now he seems to reverted back to his original type, but injuries haven't helped.

I take your point but then the methodology of finding a genuine all-rounder vs a bits and pieces player is too hit and miss. There is a fine line between the two and it takes time for a player to develop into one (if he does at all). It makes sense that within that time of development they contribute to the team in at least one-field. Therefore, you should choose a player who is atleast worthy of being in the team based on that skill set, which is what Misbah is saying.

Historically speaking, this is how many the AR greats have come, by excelling in one discipline first and then get better at the other.

Also a bit confused, as you think Faheem Ashraf is one of the worst players to play and yet he has similar quality to Stokes when he started (although Faheem is more aligned to bowling than batting). Do you mean it was a good idea to select him in the beginning but hasn't worked out?
 
It's simple - you have to be able to win a match on your own with either bat or ball or both, as per Wasim Akram and Abdul Razzaq were.
 
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the last all-rounder who was probably good enough to cement the place on batting or bowling either was the duo of Azhar/Razzaq... after that its been a downfall..

doubt any all-rounder has the ability to be pciked on either batting or bowling.. only Stokes comes close but he would be 6/7 in england picking order as a bowler... Anderson/Jofra/Broad/Woakes/Wood/Curran(Sam)/Stokes .... dont see anyone else even close
 
Looking ahead at Australia, if I had no other choice, I would put Shadab ahead of Yasir in the playing eleven.
 
He will never learn. His team just lost their precious ashes to the team who had 4 specialist bowlers. Junaids goes all on about batting to 9 and having all rounders, don’t see England even close to the top of the test rankings despite him saying this formula works!!!

I don't disagree his logic completely, but the problem is the expectation from Faheem & Imad & Nawaz type all-rounder. Our Shakib is carrying the whole team with both bat & ball, therefore I do understand what an All-round can bring in the team ..... but. Last time, I had to write something in this line and that much elaborated when Junaids was posting blue prints of Nawaz averaging 35 (or 40??) with bat and 40 with ball ........ that too in Australia.
 
I don't disagree his logic completely, but the problem is the expectation from Faheem & Imad & Nawaz type all-rounder. Our Shakib is carrying the whole team with both bat & ball, therefore I do understand what an All-round can bring in the team ..... but. Last time, I had to write something in this line and that much elaborated when Junaids was posting blue prints of Nawaz averaging 35 (or 40??) with bat and 40 with ball ........ that too in Australia.


I only believe in selecting an all rounder who makes the team on batting or bowling merit alone.
 
All these criticisms will be answered once Pakistan start winning
 
Misbah was spot on.

Saeed Ajmal and Umar Gul had better batting than Shadab Khan and Faheem Ashraf.
 
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