Is Saeed Ajmal an ATG off-spinner?

[Bhaag Viru Bhaag]

Proposing a chucker as an ATG is a disgrace itself. His stats are all turns 0 being a chucker.

Currently he is a chucker but he was not according to ICC rules when he took those wickets. So he is definitely not a cheater. Amir was but his stats are still intact aren't they?

 

[Thivagar]

His 40 degrees extension was a bit too much, if he was bowling around 20-25 degree extension it would have been equal to the likes of Warner and Finch using gigantic bats.

 

[Thivagar]

Herath and Ashwin were not surpassing Ajmal when he was in his peak.

 

[Saj]

Absolutely fantastic bowler whose reputation was sadly tarnished after he was banned from bowling after the ICC suddenly woke up and decided to tighten the rules on bowlers.

 

[QalandarFan]

No it's unfair to call him an ATG. But I will say that he was an amazing bowler and I loved watching him bowl.

BTW what's up with all these atg threads, is it just because there is no cricket going on.

 

[Major]

Absolutely fantastic bowler whose reputation was sadly tarnished after he was banned from bowling after the ICC suddenly woke up and decided to tighten the rules on bowlers.

ICC did not suddenly woke up. Change in management took place. Those who chucked should had been ready for it

The past ICC officials did not had the guts to take this measure.

It was Anil Kumble who came and took measures.

Today guys like Ajmal blame ICC, but to be honest the players are to be blamed themselves. Those who chucked they themselves knew they chucked. Players who were chucking were well before known in domestic before ICC became strict.

Why else didn't guys like Atif Maqbool didn't get to play? They were known chuckers, and after the bans started he also got caught and that so in domestic

 

[Saj]

ICC did not suddenly woke up. Change in management took place. Those who chucked should had been ready for it

The past ICC officials did not had the guts to take this measure.

It was Anil Kumble who came and took measures.

Today guys like Ajmal blame ICC, but to be honest the players are to be blamed themselves. Those who chucked they themselves knew they chucked. Players who were chucking were well before known in domestic before ICC became strict.

Why else didn't guys like Atif Maqbool didn't get to play? They were known chuckers, and after the bans started he also got caught and that so in domestic

ICC did suddenly wake up. If they let Murali get away with it for so long and some others, then I guess it was Ajmal's 'bad luck' that he got caught. In years gone by he would not have been caught with an illegal action.

 

[GenericBrand]

He's definitely an ATG....at chucking his way through to 400 wickets

Unbelievable we have some people saying he was better than Warne

 

[Hawkeye]

Murali always had a shadow but was never banned.

A case could be made for Murali anyways because of his natural illusion.

Ajmal said "he had an accident" and so that's why "he bowled that way".

The accident "miraculously disappeared" after he was caught by ICC, and he managed remedial work, albeit at the cost of no longer remaining effective.

This is why (because of Murali's controversy, Ajmal's chucking) I consider Warne as one of the best spinners of all time.

ATG spinner, Warne.

Murali wasn't a chucker, and he had several tests done on him. Heck, he even bowled with a...brace or something to prove he's not chucking.

If someone's an extremist and a biased bigot, one could think that way.

Ajmal is a chucker, Murali wasn't.

 

[GenericBrand]

Ajmal shouldn't be compared to any legitimate bowler no matter how mediocre the legit bowler is

 

[Chrish]

Shane Warne was not caught with PED's for that matter.

He was banned for taking a diuretic , which can be used to mask the effect of steroids like PED's.

He said, he was using it get rid of the double chin.

Now unless, you have proof he was taking PED's , you don't have iota of proof he was taking them.

Needless to say, CA banned him from taking part in the World Cup, even though it was not established he was taking PED's because of a masking agent which was prohibited.

If that is equivalent to a bowler , chucking pies, to get 150 odd wickets in ODI's albeit, then Warne should have been banned forever.

However he took 293 wickets at bowling average of 25.73 and had he taken part in World Cup, who knows he might have got tons more to get 300 ODI wickets.

To equate such a bowler to Saeed Ajmal, just because he was caught using a masking agent is just absurd.

I don't need an iota of proof neither did ICC when they banned him for a year. To each his own but I find your logic bit silly

I never compared Warne with Ajmal. I was just pointing out the flaw in ur logic suggesting only Warne is clean for being considered an ATG

 

[Ashraful_Rox]

ICC did suddenly wake up. If they let Murali get away with it for so long and some others, then I guess it was Ajmal's 'bad luck' that he got caught. In years gone by he would not have been caught with an illegal action.

But Murali wasn't a chucker, Ajmal was.

 

[Junaids]

But Murali wasn't a chucker, Ajmal was.

How do you type those words without blushing?

The protocols and processes have changed, but on two separate occasions in line with the rules in place at the time Murali was found guilty of chucking.

Murali was first found guilty of chucking on 26 December 1995.

He was found guilty of chucking a second time on 23 January 1999.

Those convictions for chucking were as per the processes at the time. He was not "charged" and he was not "accused", he was found guilty and punished.

 

[The_Odd_One]

How do you type those words without blushing?

The protocols and processes have changed, but on two separate occasions in line with the rules in place at the time Murali was found guilty of chucking.

Murali was first found guilty of chucking on 26 December 1995.

He was found guilty of chucking a second time on 23 January 1999.

Those convictions for chucking were as per the processes at the time. He was not "charged" and he was not "accused", he was found guilty and punished.

If Murali was a chucker then so was McGrath.

 

[James]

Ajmal is not even a 'disputed thrower' like Murali. Unlike Murali, Ajmal was verified as having an illegal bowling action and was immediately banned from competing. (For the record, I personally consider Murali a thrower also.)

Surely this stuff, when say in Ajmal's case it has been proven beyond all doubt, instantly removes any bowler from discussion as an ATG or even any kind of a great. His reputation is in tatters.

 

[jeetu]

Statistically ATG in ODI's , stunning numbers.
Not in Tests as he played only 35 tests.

 

[Sidilicious]

ICC did suddenly wake up. If they let Murali get away with it for so long and some others, then I guess it was Ajmal's 'bad luck' that he got caught. In years gone by he would not have been caught with an illegal action.

Murali had enough scientific evidence to prove that the did not chuck. But thats not the case with Ajmal.

I do not agree with the 15 degree rule. I have seen it affect club cricket, as some bowlers chuck with the excuse that they are within 15 degree.

But Murali's hyperextension (or whatever the technical term was) has proven he did not chuck. Same with Shoaib Akhtar, IIRC. But thats not the case with Ajmal here. Ajmal was chucking blatantly and was nowhere close to 15 degrees.

 

[Tusker]

This.

Neither Ajmal nor Murali even count in the field of ATG off-spinners.

Jim Laker reigns supreme because he was clean. Cheats don't even get considered, just as Ben Johnson and Lance Armstrong can't live off their drug-fuelled records.

And Iam assuming your rating for Laker being soo high is a result of all those fairy tales told to you by someone ? any chance for facts to have a say here ? Plenty of modern spinners far better than Laker.

 

[Junaids]

If Murali was a chucker then so was McGrath.

Murali was found guilty of chucking twice and penalised for it.

McGrath was never found guilty of chucking.

 

[Ashraful_Rox]

Murali had enough scientific evidence to prove that the did not chuck. But thats not the case with Ajmal.

I do not agree with the 15 degree rule. I have seen it affect club cricket, as some bowlers chuck with the excuse that they are within 15 degree.

But Murali's hyperextension (or whatever the technical term was) has proven he did not chuck. Same with Shoaib Akhtar, IIRC. But thats not the case with Ajmal here. Ajmal was chucking blatantly and was nowhere close to 15 degrees.

What was it 45 degrees or 50 degrees, and people are running around here claiming he was an ATG. Two years later they are going to claim Salman Butt was an ATG.

 

[Indiafan]

ICC did suddenly wake up. If they let Murali get away with it for so long and some others, then I guess it was Ajmal's 'bad luck' that he got caught. In years gone by he would not have been caught with an illegal action.

Murali bowled with a brace and still got the same turn and bounce he did before

 

[Indiafan]

Murali was found guilty of chucking twice and penalised for it.

McGrath was never found guilty of chucking.

Yes, because his test was unofficial. But he did exceed 15 degrees

 

[Dr_Bassim]

I don't need an iota of proof neither did ICC when they banned him for a year. To each his own but I find your logic bit silly

I never compared Warne with Ajmal. I was just pointing out the flaw in ur logic suggesting only Warne is clean for being considered an ATG

I never said he didn't do anything wrong.

I said he had a clean action.

Again if for argument's sake, ICC did not ban Warne, because they found PED in his blood stream, but because they found a banned diuretic which could possibly mask PED's.

Repeat it to yourself till it sinks in.

ICC banned Warne for taking a banned diuretic, not PED's.

 

[Vayuu]

Definitely an ATG ODI bowler. He was better than Warne and Murali in the shorter formats and I've never seen a bowler control the 50 overs format the way Ajmal has.

As for tests, he's not an ATG but he's been the best spinner in this format too, since the retirement of Murali and Warne. He won Pakistan a high-profile series against England, at their greatest peak in decades; has a 10-fer in South Africa against their greatest test team ever; and also had a pretty good series in England, back in 2010 when the conditions were pace-friendly.

He was a better test spinner than Swann, and Herath were and Shah and Ashwin are now. In ODIs, he's second only to Saqlain Mushtaq. A great in tests and an ATG in ODIs.

That has to be the most ridiculous gibberish ever, yes he was good but better than Warne and murli, in odi's no way, in case ,you forgot murli has 500 odi wicket and Warne 300 in odi 's, plus warne had an huge impact in 1999 wc , ran through both saffers and pak on its own, look at their average and strike rate, it's an insult to even compare him with them, for me murli, saq, Kumble and Warne are very good in odi's as well

 

[Hawkeye]

Murali was found guilty of chucking twice and penalised for it.

McGrath was never found guilty of chucking.

Murali had enough scientific evidence to prove that the did not chuck. But thats not the case with Ajmal.

I do not agree with the 15 degree rule. I have seen it affect club cricket, as some bowlers chuck with the excuse that they are within 15 degree.

But Murali's hyperextension (or whatever the technical term was) has proven he did not chuck. Same with Shoaib Akhtar, IIRC. But thats not the case with Ajmal here. Ajmal was chucking blatantly and was nowhere close to 15 degrees.

Murali bowled with a brace and still got the same turn and bounce he did before

Correct. Murali did all he could to prove he wasn't one, and that still doesn't satisfy some. Can't please everyone.

He's regarded highly, even though there's some "controversy" but you have to think beyond your personal opinion.

 

[Bilal7]

Murali wasn't a chucker, and he had several tests done on him. Heck, he even bowled with a...brace or something to prove he's not chucking.

If someone's an extremist and a biased bigot, one could think that way.

Ajmal is a chucker, Murali wasn't.

Murali did not get tested according to the current ICC regulations in place. He was tested and cleared by the same testing method that cleared Ajmal.

That has to be the most ridiculous gibberish ever, yes he was good but better than Warne and murli, in odi's no way, in case ,you forgot murli has 500 odi wicket and Warne 300 in odi 's, plus warne had an huge impact in 1999 wc , ran through both saffers and pak on its own, look at their average and strike rate, it's an insult to even compare him with them, for me murli, saq, Kumble and Warne are very good in odi's as well

First of all, don't mention Kumble in this list. He doesn't belong. Secondly, Ajmal may not have 500 wickets but he played enough matches to display his skill, which was greater than Warne and Murali's in ODIs. Look at their averages and SR? You should look at Ajmal's first.

In LO cricket, variations count for a lot, more so than big turn, which is why Saqlain and Ajmal are the #1 and #2 ODI spinners of all-time.

 

[Bilal7]

Murali was found guilty of chucking twice and penalised for it.

McGrath was never found guilty of chucking.

According to the old limits of 5 degrees for spinners and 10 (?) for pacers, "99% of all bowlers in the world" were chucking. Then the ICC quickly gave more leeway to the bowlers so they wouldn't have to ban all of them.

 

[Hawkeye]

Murali did not get tested according to the current ICC regulations in place. He was tested and cleared by the same testing method that cleared Ajmal.
.

No. Ajmal got worse gradually. He wasn't bowling with 50 degree chucking from the start.

And you fail to realize Murali had legit hyperextension too just like Akhtar.

Ajmal was a cheat in this regard as well. Murali was clean.

 

[Misia]

Yes ATG batta bowler

 

[Bilal7]

No. Ajmal got worse gradually. He wasn't bowling with 50 degree chucking from the start.

And you fail to realize Murali had legit hyperextension too just like Akhtar.

Ajmal was a cheat in this regard as well. Murali was clean.

His action from '09 and at his peak during 2011-2013 was pretty similar. Whatever, Murali had, he wouldn't have cleared the testing today and you know it, just like I do.

 

[James]

Most semi-talented bowlers on the county & domestic circuits could have a good run in international cricket if they were allowed to throw the ball unperturbed for several years before the governing body could be bothered to build a case against them. This is hardly an ATG career profile. Most countries proactively exit their own bowlers, usually at a very early stage, if they are proving to maintain an action that could be deemed illegal.

 

[street cricketer]

Most semi-talented bowlers on the county & domestic circuits could have a good run in international cricket if they were allowed to throw the ball unperturbed for several years before the governing body could be bothered to build a case against them. This is hardly an ATG career profile. Most countries proactively exit their own bowlers, usually at a very early stage, if they are proving to maintain an action that could be deemed illegal.

Ajmal was a chucker alright but he was the most talented of them. It still takes a great deal to bamboozle batsmen even if you're bending your elbow by 50 degrees. Guys like Ojha and Senanayke were using full sleeves and chucking in the past but still were hardly anywhere close to the magic that Ajmal produced with his chucking. Ajmal was the GOAT of chuckers imo.

 

[Hawkeye]

Ajmal was a chucker alright but he was the most talented of them. It still takes a great deal to bamboozle batsmen even if you're bending your elbow by 50 degrees. Guys like Ojha and Senanayke were using full sleeves and chucking in the past but still were hardly anywhere close to the magic that Ajmal produced with his chucking. Ajmal was the GOAT of chuckers imo.

Hahahahaha man. ) )

Nailed it streety. Yes, I'd give Ajmal that. Most chuckers couldn't do as well as Ajmal. Which really was ATG stuff!

 

[Saj]

Most semi-talented bowlers on the county & domestic circuits could have a good run in international cricket if they were allowed to throw the ball unperturbed for several years before the governing body could be bothered to build a case against them. This is hardly an ATG career profile. Most countries proactively exit their own bowlers, usually at a very early stage, if they are proving to maintain an action that could be deemed illegal.

Is that why the likes of James Kirtley etc in England played for so long??

 

[Syed1]

No. Ajmal got worse gradually. He wasn't bowling with 50 degree chucking from the start.

And you fail to realize Murali had legit hyperextension too just like Akhtar.

Ajmal was a cheat in this regard as well. Murali was clean.

Why did ICC test and clear him then?

His fault that ICC cleared him? He should have voluntarily given up bowling saying "oh I think my action might be a tad bit illegal even though the tests say otherwise"

 

[Chrish]

I never said he didn't do anything wrong.

I said he had a clean action.

Again if for argument's sake, ICC did not ban Warne, because they found PED in his blood stream, but because they found a banned diuretic which could possibly mask PED's.

Repeat it to yourself till it sinks in.

ICC banned Warne for taking a banned diuretic, not PED's.

Timing of taking diuretic before World Cup while suffering from injury.. there is no doubt in my mind what was heppening

He is far from being clean as far as I am concerned and your post that only he is qualified because of clean action is silly.

Anyways whatever

 

[Ashraful_Rox]

Ajmal was a chucker alright but he was the most talented of them. It still takes a great deal to bamboozle batsmen even if you're bending your elbow by 50 degrees. Guys like Ojha and Senanayke were using full sleeves and chucking in the past but still were hardly anywhere close to the magic that Ajmal produced with his chucking. Ajmal was the GOAT of chuckers imo.

Chucking and Magic, magician chucker kya baat hain

 

[Vayuu]

Murali did not get tested according to the current ICC regulations in place. He was tested and cleared by the same testing method that cleared Ajmal.



First of all, don't mention Kumble in this list. He doesn't belong. Secondly, Ajmal may not have 500 wickets but he played enough matches to display his skill, which was greater than Warne and Murali's in ODIs. Look at their averages and SR? You should look at Ajmal's first.

In LO cricket, variations count for a lot, more so than big turn, which is why Saqlain and Ajmal are the #1 and #2 ODI spinners of all-time.

Kumble may not have the avg of Ajmal, but he was damn good in his skill, you think 330 odd wicket is a joke, a better bat a much better fielder , you can call him mcgrath of spinners, and a much cleaner action than Ajmal, same with warne ,saqi and murli, regarding variations yes they count lot, but overdoing them can wear off the novelty factor very easily, Saqlain and Ajmal over using their doosra, also led to their downfall, in Saqlain's case he was found out and ajmal's doosra led to his ban and he was barred from bowling it and once that happened, he wasn't half the bowler and was done and dusted for good , same happened with mendis and bhajji , who over used their carrom ball and doosra respectively, even ashwin was doing so but thank god he realised that his stock ball is his off spinner and worked on that and now he uses his off spinner varies it and mixes it with under cut top spinner, sliders, seam ups and occasional carrom ball, I am afraid that wasn't the case with ajmal.

 

[The_Odd_One]

Ajmal was a chucker alright but he was the most talented of them. It still takes a great deal to bamboozle batsmen even if you're bending your elbow by 50 degrees. Guys like Ojha and Senanayke were using full sleeves and chucking in the past but still were hardly anywhere close to the magic that Ajmal produced with his chucking. Ajmal was the GOAT of chuckers imo.

Absolutely right! Not every chucker can be as good as Ajmal.

 

[SLcric123]

He was magical for sure particularly in odis.

 

[Buffet]

Absolutely right! Not every chucker can be as good as Ajmal.

So it's fair to say that Ajmal is an ATG in universe of chuckers? It looks like no other chucker has been so effective in ODI format.

 

[Buffet]

Ajmal was a chucker alright but he was the most talented of them. It still takes a great deal to bamboozle batsmen even if you're bending your elbow by 50 degrees. Guys like Ojha and Senanayke were using full sleeves and chucking in the past but still were hardly anywhere close to the magic that Ajmal produced with his chucking. Ajmal was the GOAT of chuckers imo.

Agree here. Many chucked , but not as effective as Ajmal.

 

[Sidilicious]

Agree here. Many chucked , but not as effective as Ajmal.

or blatantly!

 

[Last Monetarist]

https://cricketaddictor.com/cricket-news/england-and-india-have-two-teams-now-our-one-is-struggling-to-survive-saeed-ajmal-on-pakistans-odi-series-loss-to-second-string-england/

Former spinner Saeed Ajmal expressed his distress over Pakistan‘s embarrassing ODI series loss to a second-string England outfit, which was assembled just two days prior to the start of the series after covid had hit the original squad.

The hosts whitewashed Babar Azam’s side 3-0 in the ODI series concluded on Tuesday in Birmingham. Pakistan’s batting was disappointing: in the first two ODIs they were bowled out for less than 200; in the third, though they batted better, they could post a par total according to the batting-friendly nature of the pitch as the target was chased down by England with two overs to spare.

Saeed Ajmal pointed out that countries like England and India are able to put up two strong sides simultaneously; on the other hand, Pakistan are struggling to win a game with their best side.

“Babar Azam has scored 14 hundreds in 81 innings. What should I say now? Even after playing a brilliant innings he had to return to the pavilion frustrated (after Pakistan’s loss). It used to happen to me as well. I took five-wicket hauls but the team used to lose. I can only see two or three top players,” Saeed Ajmal said in his YouTube video.

Even in bowling, apart from two or three bowlers, I don’t see any of them (of quality). How will we survive like this? Our middle order is still a flop. If the top order performs then only we can put commendable score. Whenever the top order fails our teams get completely bogged down. England and India have two teams now, our one is struggling to survive.”

Saeed Ajmal also asserted poor planning and policies of the PCB hurting their cricket. He reckons that players need to be fitter but at the same time skills also should be given importance and not select or drop players solely based on their fitness.

“What are you preparing for? We have been crying for three years that we need to play youngsters and we need to improve on our fitness levels. What did you achieve? Now we have once again come back to- leave fitness level, we need talent now.

“Now, you have brought in Sharjeel Khan, Azam Khan. Now you have started saying we want to see skills in players’. Fitness is important but don’t have such poor policies where players lack fitness and skills,” the former spinner added.