Is South African cricket going the West Indies way?

[vandokkum]

Obviously SA never reached the heights of the WI of the past, but it seems like we are going downhill for some time now. With Steyn and De Villiers nearing retirement, Will SA ever be considered a top team again?

 

[TahirFan]

The Proteas look terrible under AB's captaincy. Try to get rid of that guy and quickly

 

[amvbfm]

Certainly not. There is good talent coming through unlike Windies but the quota system is hurting the team imo. Players like Parnell, Phehlukwayo, Behardien are nowhere near good enough to represent an international side. The problems are compounded by DeVilliers inept captaincy.

 

[Aman]

Someone seems depressed after the CT

 

[TahirFan]

Pretorious and Smuts both white were the top performers in South Africa's domestic level.

Both are absolute hacks at international level. South African cricket lacks depth

 

[Aman]

Pretorious and Smuts both white were the top performers in South Africa's domestic level.

Both are absolute hacks at international level. South African cricket lacks depth

Maybe the new T20 league will help?

 

[Ozymandiasza]

I think it's more of a limbo situation with doubt over coaching staff, captaincy, and another batch of greats getting close to retirement.

 

[Aman]

I think it's more of a limbo situation with doubt over coaching staff, captaincy, and another batch of greats getting close to retirement.

Do you want Amla and AB there for 2019? IMO it would be better to blood in some youngsters and use it to build to 2023.

2019 you are not going to be contenders with Amla and AB in the side.

 

[Madplayer]

Its unfortunate that colour quota is hampering their development.

Players like riley roussow and abbott leaving the team didnt help either.

Also they are too mechanical in their approach.

They tend to over analyse things which is not the way in sports where flamboyance, spontaneity and passion should be the driving forces.

Currently, the players look disinterested after the CT debacle.

Its very important for SA to win an ICC trophy soon. It will breathe new life into the team.

I wish they would win the next world t20 to start with.

All the best to them.

 

[Aman]

[MENTION=48484]ozymandias[/MENTION]z

How is interest for the sport like in SA?

I can't imagine the sport being too popular after another disappointing performance at an ICC event.

 

[Ozymandiasza]

Do you want Amla and AB there for 2019? IMO it would be better to blood in some youngsters and use it to build to 2023.

2019 you are not going to be contenders with Amla and AB in the side.

Nah, I honestly think they're fooling themselves by thinking they'll always be around up to 2019. They should maybe groom some younster for captaincy, like they did with Smith. It's all opinions and speculations though. Noone knows what the future hold but I'm doubtful we'll see such a sharp decline as with WI.

 

[Madplayer]

Nah, I honestly think they're fooling themselves by thinking they'll always be around up to 2019. They should maybe groom some younster for captaincy, like they did with Smith. It's all opinions and speculations though. Noone knows what the future hold but I'm doubtful we'll see such a sharp decline as with WI.

You think some one like de kock or miller can be made captain? Other than Faf that is.

 

[Billy1999]

Pretorious and Smuts both white were the top performers in South Africa's domestic level.

Both are absolute hacks at international level. South African cricket lacks depth

Give me a bit of info on a player named de brane I think that's his name
Isn't he meant to be the next Joe root,smith,kohli,Williamson for southafrica

P.s.He played in the Sri Lanka T20s at no3 and played 1 Test at opener in New zealand

 

[Billy1999]

*Thenus De bruyne

 

[Ozymandiasza]

[MENTION=48484]ozymandias[/MENTION]z

How is interest for the sport like in SA?

I can't imagine the sport being too popular after another disappointing performance at an ICC event.

I think it's doing okay. Then again, I don't really follow the sport at a provincial level. [MENTION=142991]TahirFan[/MENTION] seems knowledgable about it though.

ICC tournament failures are always dissappointing but you don't want to miss it when they actually win one

 

[Ozymandiasza]

You think some one like de kock or miller can be made captain? Other than Faf that is.

I honestly don't get the captaincy vibe from QdK. As far as I remember Miller wasn't even a permanent member of the squad and was dropped not that long ago.

 

[IAJ]

Its unfortunate that colour quota is hampering their development.

Players like riley roussow and abbott leaving the team didnt help either.

Also they are too mechanical in their approach.

They tend to over analyse things which is not the way in sports where flamboyance, spontaneity and passion should be the driving forces.

Currently, the players look disinterested after the CT debacle.

Its very important for SA to win an ICC trophy soon. It will breathe new life into the team.

I wish they would win the next world t20 to start with.

All the best to them.

So instead of Pakistan you want SA to win World T20?

 

[Hasan123]

South Africa will never go anywhere with rubbish like Behardien and Parnell. They also have a lot of 30 plus players. Changes need to be made.

 

[CricMylifr]

No... Didn't they just beat Aus in Aus very recently?

They just need a better leader.. faf should captain the side!!

 

[vandokkum]

Someone seems depressed after the CT

I am used to watching them choke, but the pathetic attitude of this guy is really pissing me off.

 

[Varun]

In my lifetime, I have never seen a weak or mediocre South African test team.

Never.

 

[Slog]

Certainly not. There is good talent coming through unlike Windies but the quota system is hurting the team imo. Players like Parnell, Phehlukwayo, Behardien are nowhere near good enough to represent an international side. The problems are compounded by DeVilliers inept captaincy.

the major problem is the quota at domestic level (even more than international)

Every domestic team has to have SIX colored players and THREE black players playing EVERY match!

So some talented white players arent even getting chances at domestic cricket.

A 14,15 year old white kid literally has every obstacle in the world in front of him because even a 70% equivalent talented black kid will be preferred and has a higher chance of making it as he has much less competition.

This is ridiculous!

 

[Madplayer]

So instead of Pakistan you want SA to win World T20?

Let me rephrase please.

I want Pakistan to win it but If Pakistan doesnt win it, I would like SA to win it for the good of the game. They need an ICC trophy very badly.

 

[Princejain191]

No.

They have a test team that won in Aus, without much experience. A test team and IMO the only team, that can actually challenge a full-bloodied England in England. They have an all-time great in the making in Rabada, and a gun bowling attack overall. A proper test match opener in Elgar, a young and athletic team and a solid middle-order. Also, they still are no. 1 in ODIs. I can't see the problem apart from the usual hiccups in the tournaments. Their test team is actually really really good.

 

[amvbfm]

the major problem is the quota at domestic level (even more than international)

Every domestic team has to have SIX colored players and THREE black players playing EVERY match!

So some talented white players arent even getting chances at domestic cricket.

A 14,15 year old white kid literally has every obstacle in the world in front of him because even a 70% equivalent talented black kid will be preferred and has a higher chance of making it as he has much less competition.

This is ridiculous!

This will promote mediocrity as players with little talent will get selected over more deserving ones. The change should be instituted at the grassroots level by providing facilities to the underprivileged blacks. But again as discussed the other day, its a political issue and very little chance of it changing.

 

[Amjid Javed]

A Team which won test series in Aus and NZ on last visits, is in decline?

 

[Arham_PakFan]

No,just need a change of leadership,and need to get rid of the quota system.

 

[Sami92]

This will promote mediocrity as players with little talent will get selected over more deserving ones. The change should be instituted at the grassroots level by providing facilities to the underprivileged blacks. But again as discussed the other day, its a political issue and very little chance of it changing.

Agree. I'm completely against the quota.

As much as I'm a hige fan of AB, I don't think he's a captaincy material. Du Plessis should captain in all formats & De Kock should be groomed for future captaincy.

Aiden Markram & Theunis De Bruyn should have been playing these T20Is. They are up and coming players. Playing for SOU A against Eng Lions currently.

They need to pick the right players. Wayne Parnell needs to go. You don't drop Morris for T20s. Lungi Ngidi who is perhaps injured is a miss. Ngidi or Beuran Hendricks could have been a better option than Parnell.

 

[Syed1]

Going by Pakistani experience, a mediocre captain can even make a good team look BAD (Misbah/Afridi), however, a good captain can even make an average team look excellent (Sarfaraz).


SA still has excellent players like Faf, QdK, Amla, AB, Miller, Tahir and Rabada within their ranks. They just need to get rid of some of the passengers in the side and give the captaincy to a guy who actually knows what he is doing.

 

[Bewal Express]

An exaggration to say the least when you have a team as good as theirs. Even with the pathetic quota system they have some very good young players coming.

 

[Savak]

It is clear that South African players do not make that much money in Cricket compared to the rest of the world. This might be leading to a talent drain.

The team looks directionless, ABD is clearly not looking captaincy material and should make way.

 

[coy0607]

they are the no. 2 ranked team in test cricket
they are the no.1 ranked ODI team
they have arguably more big name players than anyone else in world cricket

they didn't deliver in the CT, but thats nothing new. Maybe need a captaincy change

how exactly are they going downhill?

 

[Buffet]

Get rid of AB and everything will be fine.

 

[MMHS]

Last time we had such discussion - in less than 6 months time they stormed back to beat Aussies in Test series & reach No. 1 in ODI

I think, they are going through a double transition at same time - transition for the senior citizen bunch & transition from white dominant cricket to racial balance, which should take few years; at least a decade.

Now I see few very good young non white bowlers, which is expected because bowling is more natural, but batting is methodical & better batsmen are product of a system, rather than natural talent or instincts. I am sure, in few years time there will be quality batsmen coming from 85%+ population & SAF will return to their heights. In fact, that's the only way for cricket to survive in SAF - bringing vast majority in the game.

PS: this has nothing to do with their prospect of winning ICC events - for last 25 years, they had good enough team to half Aussies trophy cabinet but ..... and long may it continue

 

[ExpressPacer]

People are afraid of being labelled as racists and intolerant which is why they don't accept it but the fact is, black/colored cricketers are nowhere nearly as talented as the white cricketers and there's logic behind that. Whites in South Africa are rich and have a great history of playing cricket. Black cricketers are poor and therefore, have to juggle sport and their financial problems all at the same time and they don't even have a history of playing cricket.

Even black cricketers who have been successful for South Africa in the shape of Bavuma and Rabada come from elite family backgrounds. I'm not here to take a moral high ground. As a pure cricketing fan, I realise that instead of heading the West Indies way, South Africa are headed that Zimbabwe way and will most certainly be one of the minnows in a decade or so.

As long as the racist government and quota system stands, South Africa is going to continue to worsen. It's about time we accept it.

 

[Chief Destroyer]

AB is the Misbah of South Africa as captain. Should sack him asap.

And no, you're not going Windies way.

 

[QalandarFan]

No way South Africa is definitely not going down the WI path, they were just recently 1st in ICC rankings and they had a bad tournament but when have they ever done well in a ICC tournament.

 

[QalandarFan]

People are afraid of being labelled as racists and intolerant which is why they don't accept it but the fact is, black/colored cricketers are nowhere nearly as talented as the white cricketers and there's logic behind that. Whites in South Africa are rich and have a great history of playing cricket. Black cricketers are poor and therefore, have to juggle sport and their financial problems all at the same time and they don't even have a history of playing cricket.

Even black cricketers who have been successful for South Africa in the shape of Bavuma and Rabada come from elite family backgrounds. I'm not here to take a moral high ground. As a pure cricketing fan, I realise that instead of heading the West Indies way, South Africa are headed that Zimbabwe way and will most certainly be one of the minnows in a decade or so.

As long as the racist government and quota system stands, South Africa is going to continue to worsen. It's about time we accept it.

Absloutley agree with this, there should be no label on what race and colour should play, at the end of the day the best 11 should play regardless, of any race or colour.

 

[Syed1]

Obviously SA never reached the heights of the WI of the past, but it seems like we are going downhill for some time now. With Steyn and De Villiers nearing retirement, Will SA ever be considered a top team again?

What other sports are big in South Africa?

I hear you guys have one of the best rugby sides in the world. Your football side is okay, can compete in Africa. This means that cricket will always have the interest of the fans since it is atleast in the top three main sports played by the country. This would mean that fresh talent will keep coming through and you will keep doing well in international cricket, however, sustaining number 1 or 2 ranking might be harder, but no way in hell are you guys going to go to number 9 in the rankings.


For Pakistan even when we were flirting with number 9 and 10 in the rankings most Pakistanis knew that this state is temporary because the entire country only plays only one sport and we are bound to produce good players eventually. That is exactly what happened.

 

[TahirFan]

[MENTION=141922]ExpressPacer[/MENTION]

Most cricketers of colour do not come from the elite. Dumminy, Paul Adams, Philander,Phangiso, Langerveldt, Ontong, Pieterson, Omar Henry and many more extremely poor backgrounds. Ntini was a herdsman

Not All white cricketers come wealthy backgrounds. Gary Kirsten's father was a groundsman, Nantie Haywards dad was plumber, Stephan Cook's and Neil Mckenzie, the Morkel brothers's father's were cricketers in our domestic league,Jonty Rhodes father was a hockey coach in our domestic league, Paul Harris was a son of a policeman, David Miller's father was a club level cricketer and an electrician, many of the white cricketer also come from humble backgrounds

 

[Bewal Express]

So every3 is after AB but the problem of mental slackness predates him.

 

[amvbfm]

Agree. I'm completely against the quota.

As much as I'm a hige fan of AB, I don't think he's a captaincy material. Du Plessis should captain in all formats & De Kock should be groomed for future captaincy.

Aiden Markram & Theunis De Bruyn should have been playing these T20Is. They are up and coming players. Playing for SOU A against Eng Lions currently.

They need to pick the right players. Wayne Parnell needs to go. You don't drop Morris for T20s. Lungi Ngidi who is perhaps injured is a miss. Ngidi or Beuran Hendricks could have been a better option than Parnell.

The SA team playing against the Lions is indicative of either the lack of talent or selectorial bias (don't know much about that so can't comment) as it includes so many players who have already been tested at the test level and proved not to be too effective. Kuhn, Piedt, zondo, Bavuma, Hendricks, none of them have shown that they can fill the boots of the big players currently playing. The players who do look promising are all white - , de Bruyn, Olivier and Mulder - who might not all get a chance due to the quota system or end up going Kolpak. On the contrary look at the Lions squad and you will see some amazing young players like Lawrence, Hameed, Jennings, Foakes, and Curran and you can clearly see where England is headed.

 

[ExpressPacer]

[MENTION=141922]ExpressPacer[/MENTION]

Most cricketers of colour do not come from the elite. Dumminy, Paul Adams, Philander,Phangiso, Langerveldt, Ontong, Pieterson, Omar Henry and many more extremely poor backgrounds. Ntini was a herdsman

Not All white cricketers come wealthy backgrounds. Gary Kirsten's father was a groundsman, Nantie Haywards dad was plumber, Stephan Cook's and Neil Mckenzie, the Morkel brothers's father's were cricketers in our domestic league,Jonty Rhodes father was a hockey coach in our domestic league, Paul Harris was a son of a policeman, David Miller's father was a club level cricketer and an electrician, many of the white cricketer also come from humble backgrounds

Frankly, other than Philander, none of those should even be able to make the South Africa 'A' team. As for the white cricketers from the humble backgrounds, I never claimed that all white cricketers were landlords and lived like kings but rather that white cricketers were comparatively better off and have more history of having played cricket.

I'm not against black or colored people playing cricket. Kagiso Rabada is the perfect example of why they should but if they must, they should be able to make the team on merit and not some quota system. South Africa is run by a black man. Cricket South Africa is run by a black man. Racism against blacks is non existent. So, nobody's going to biasedly play primarily white cricketers. My only problem is talented cricketers like Harmer, Abbot, Rilee and a thousand other talented cricketers missing out on taking their country to the top because of racist policies.

 

[TahirFan]

My only problem is talented cricketers like Harmer, Abbot, Rilee and a thousand other talented cricketers missing out on taking their country to the top because of racist policies

Rilee and Abbot had Protea contracts and played for South Africa. They left South Africa because of greed.

Harmer was fighting for a place with 'Imran Tahir' and Tahir is not South African born and not considered as a Quota player

 

[Pete Rose]

My only problem is talented cricketers like Harmer, Abbot, Rilee and a thousand other talented cricketers missing out on taking their country to the top because of racist policies

Rilee and Abbot had Protea contracts and played for South Africa. They left South Africa because of greed.

Harmer was fighting for a place with 'Imran Tahir' and Tahir is not South African born and not considered as a Quota player

Personally I think more and black players need to play the game, and at the expense of white players. The socioeconomic disparities in South Africa mean that more white players rather than black players will leave to go abroad. So in the short term there might be a drop in quality but in long term if the sport is truly adopted it will work out fine

 

[Markhor]

[MENTION=141922]ExpressPacer[/MENTION]

In your posts you are not mentioning a major fact. After the dismantling of Apartheid, the white dominated sporting federations were asked to set targets for transformation and they failed hence government intervention.

To suggest black South Africans are not interested in cricket or lack the talent is frankly nonsense. The reason why fewer black South Africans take up cricket is due to socio-economic inequality and lack of access to facilities not because they have some inherent dislike for the sport or are less talented. More than HALF of black children grow up in poverty and the majority of government schools do not play cricket. If you don't give people the opportunity then how will you ever know ?

Makhaya Ntini and Monde Zondeki needed scholarships to white schools in order to be identified and make it through the system. I don't personally like quotas but I understand the need for CSA to expand the demographic playing cricket which cannot survive with only a small percentage of the population participating.

Apartheid may be gone but its legacy still remains. Its ignorance also to say there's no racism in South Africa. I remember [MENTION=132982]soso_killer[/MENTION] here talking about how in Dale College in the Eastern Cape province you had white parents refusing their children to play alongside black students. As former US President Johnson once said:

"You do not take a person who, for years, has been hobbled by chains and liberate him, bring him up to the starting line of a race and then say you are free to compete with all the others, and still just believe that you have been completely fair."

 

[ExpressPacer]

[MENTION=141922]ExpressPacer[/MENTION]

In your posts you are not mentioning a major fact. After the dismantling of Apartheid, the white dominated sporting federations were asked to set targets for transformation and they failed hence government intervention.

To suggest black South Africans are not interested in cricket or lack the talent is frankly nonsense. The reason why fewer black South Africans take up cricket is due to socio-economic inequality and lack of access to facilities not because they have some inherent dislike for the sport or are less talented. More than HALF of black children grow up in poverty and the majority of government schools do not play cricket. If you don't give people the opportunity then how will you ever know ?

Makhaya Ntini and Monde Zondeki needed scholarships to white schools in order to be identified and make it through the system. I don't personally like quotas but I understand the need for CSA to expand the demographic playing cricket which cannot survive with only a small percentage of the population participating.

Apartheid may be gone but its legacy still remains. Its ignorance also to say there's no racism in South Africa. I remember [MENTION=132982]soso_killer[/MENTION] here talking about how in Dale College in the Eastern Cape province you had white parents refusing their children to play alongside black students. As former US President Johnson once said:

While you so prove a valid point and I completely understand, I want to make it clear that I'm simply advocating for there to be no quota system as a fan of the sport without any relation to the politics or past of South Africa. And as a cricket fan, I would want South Africa to do well in the present instead of ruining today and hoping for a better tomorrow. The bitter truth is, at the moment, white cricketers rotting in the domestic system or looking for opportunities abroad are a million times better than the utter mediocrity playing for South Africa.

And like I said earlier, I'm all for the black cricketers playing, but on merit.