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Is the Indian ODI batting a victim of its own success?

Varun

Varun

Senior Test Player
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Hardly the first time it's happened. We see game after game where the top-3 (mainly Rohit & Kohli) plunder the runs to either set up or chase a total, and when the time comes in the odd game where everybody from below 4 have to bat lengthy periods in the innings, lo and behold - they fail.

The thing is, how do you ever go about fixing such a problem?
 
No Dhoni is a better finisher than Bevan, the greatest of all time. Along with Pandya the future ATG all rounder, it's just a matter of practice leading up to the World Cup. They need more overs.
 
No. Its a victim of neopotistic selections. In no world will be Raina be selected in the squad. In no universe will he be played ahead of Karthik.

Such selections have been our bane. I can name atleast 6-7 players who on performance or promise should be ahead of Raina.
 
KingKhanWC said:
No Dhoni is a better finisher than Bevan, the greatest of all time. Along with Pandya the future ATG all rounder, it's just a matter of practice leading up to the World Cup. They need more overs.
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Yes Dhoni is better than Bevan and is the greatest finisher of all time. He is a notch ahead of Bevan.
 
Our bowlers have a habit of conceding 300 in every other match and fans always believe that this was a 300+ pitch. You can't expect Top 3 to win you every match. Indian fast bowlers should be put in C Grade Contract Category. They don't deserve these millions.
 
IMO the lack of new players coming through will catch up with India more often than not. 5 off the top 6 have been in India's side for better part of a decade.

Any team needs a constant influx of new players to continue improving. Sure the top 3 are undroppable but there seems to be no justification to continue with Raina and Dhoni, the latter must be thanked for his services to the country, his hand shaken and sent on his way. Dhoni is ruining his own legacy by continuing to play.
 
Syed1 said:
IMO the lack of new players coming through will catch up with India more often than not. 5 off the top 6 have been in India's side for better part of a decade.

Any team needs a constant influx of new players to continue improving. Sure the top 3 are undroppable but there seems to be no justification to continue with Raina and Dhoni, the latter must be thanked for his services to the country, his hand shaken and sent on his way. Dhoni is ruining his own legacy by continuing to play.
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This.Dhoni shouldnt do a Sachin and Yuvi and should retire asap.He is finished as a batsman though still a good keeper though.But we have guys like Pant waiting to get an opportunity.
 
Indian squad has over the hill players and huge dependence on top 3. Saying that top 3 scoring all of the runs puts the rest out of practice is just ridiculous logic. Fact is that the batting line up is being carried by three players.
 
Dingolfy said:
This.Dhoni shouldnt do a Sachin and Yuvi and should retire asap.He is finished as a batsman though still a good keeper though.But we have guys like Pant waiting to get an opportunity.
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Dude, Pant has been a dud at international level.
 
Bhaag Viru Bhaag said:
Our bowlers have a habit of conceding 300 in every other match and fans always believe that this was a 300+ pitch. You can't expect Top 3 to win you every match. Indian fast bowlers should be put in C Grade Contract Category. They don't deserve these millions.
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Yet a Indian fast bowler is top of Odi rankings.

Your attempts to discredit India is becoming hilarious now.
 
Bhaag Viru Bhaag said:
Lol. Seriously get a life. Number 1 ranked bowler didn't play today. I don't know why are you so sensitive.
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I have a life. While you only seem to be looking to discredit Indian players.

Indian fast bowlers should be put on C contract.Isnt that whst you said? Well one is ranked number 1 in Odis. Shami is ranked in top 20 in tests.

Agenda unsuccessful sir.
 
Dingolfy said:
This.Dhoni shouldnt do a Sachin and Yuvi and should retire asap.He is finished as a batsman though still a good keeper though.But we have guys like Pant waiting to get an opportunity.
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Dhoni should be number 5 thats where he is doing well. He needs time to get in. Raina has no place in the team. He isnt international material. Not even close. Karthik should have that spot and if he fails then Pant or Iyer. Even Rayudu.

Remember Raina was not in the squad.he came to replace Rayudu.
 
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babajee said:
Dude, Pant has been a dud at international level.
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He was but now is currenlty having a pretty good A tour including a gritty knock to chase 300 plus runs on a 4th day pitch against some good fast bowling from Windies.I was his biggest critic but this A tour his batting has improved a lot.
Dhoni is finished and there is no harm in trying Pant for 1 full series to see how he does.
 
KingKhanWC said:
No Dhoni is a better finisher than Bevan, the greatest of all time. Along with Pandya the future ATG all rounder, it's just a matter of practice leading up to the World Cup. They need more overs.
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He is playing bad these days and is rightly getting criticized but MSD is the GOAT finisher in ODIs, ahead of Bevan and everyone else.

Bevan retired from all forms of cricket after playing 250 games. MSD has already played more than double which was bound to take a toll on him one day.
 
cricketjoshila said:
I have a life. While you only seem to be looking to discredit Indian players.

Indian fast bowlers should be put on C contract.Isnt that whst you said? Well one is ranked number 1 in Odis. Shami is ranked in top 20 in tests.

Agenda unsuccessful sir.
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Sorry. I don't come here with some mission to score points or with agendas. That's what you are good at. You can take your ranking of bowlers and dance like a maniac. Truth is we are conceding 300+ quite frequently and putting unecessary pressure on our batting. But wait why am I explaining this to someone who thinks from somewhere else?
 
Bhaag Viru Bhaag said:
Sorry. I don't come here with some mission to score points or with agendas. That's what you are good at. You can take your ranking of bowlers and dance like a maniac. Truth is we are conceding 300+ quite frequently and putting unecessary pressure on our batting. But wait why am I explaining this to someone who thinks from somewhere else?
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I generally disagree with you but in this point, I'll agree. There are some basics which the bowlers need to get it right.

But with kaul in the picture, I seriously don't have that much of hope.
 
Dingolfy said:
He was but now is currenlty having a pretty good A tour including a gritty knock to chase 300 plus runs on a 4th day pitch against some good fast bowling from Windies.I was his biggest critic but this A tour his batting has improved a lot.
Dhoni is finished and there is no harm in trying Pant for 1 full series to see how he does.
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He was dud?

Played 3T20Is. Thats all. Isnt it?

Scored 35 odd in one. Or am i wrong?

He hasnt got chances.
 
Bhaag Viru Bhaag said:
Sorry. I don't come here with some mission to score points or with agendas. That's what you are good at. You can take your ranking of bowlers and dance like a maniac. Truth is we are conceding 300+ quite frequently and putting unecessary pressure on our batting. But wait why am I explaining this to someone who thinks from somewhere else?
Click to expand...

Let me expose your agenda some more.

How many 300 totals have Indian bowlers conceded since CT 2017?

In how many of those India too scored 300 plus?

Pretty evident what you are doing.

Most here know who is from where.
 
The success of Top 3 have shielded the middle and lower middle order for years now.

Todays match reminded me of the CT finals. Top 3 gone cheaply and the rest are hopeless.

India needs a WK who can bat like a boss. England have 2 such Keepers. India have a pension aged veteran as a keeper.

Every once in a while, the Top 3 will fail and the result will like the CT finals and Todays game.
 
Dingolfy said:
He was but now is currenlty having a pretty good A tour including a gritty knock to chase 300 plus runs on a 4th day pitch against some good fast bowling from Windies.I was his biggest critic but this A tour his batting has improved a lot.
Dhoni is finished and there is no harm in trying Pant for 1 full series to see how he does.
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If indian selectors are looking at Pant as Dhoni's replacement then they should have given him another opportunity in T20 series against England. But Dhoni doesn't want to leave T20's either and he will play even against Zim if there was a series.
 
cricketjoshila said:
Let me expose your agenda some more.

How many 300 totals have Indian bowlers conceded since CT 2017?

In how many of those India too scored 300 plus?

Pretty evident what you are doing.

Most here know who is from where.
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Before that we need to get rid of Raina.
 
he's the greatest ODI batsman, but the recent Dhoni should defo make way for Rishabh Pant or Ishan Kishan, and there should be a bowling all-rounder (the batting all-rounder being Pandya), preferably a fast/medium-bowling all-rounder, who would give it a better overall balance, otherwise the batting basically ends up with Pandya and crashes down when Kohli goes off.
 
enkidu_ said:
he's the greatest ODI batsman, but the recent Dhoni should defo make way for Rishabh Pant or Ishan Kishan, and there should be a bowling all-rounder (the batting all-rounder being Pandya), preferably a fast/medium-bowling all-rounder, who would give it a better overall balance, otherwise the batting basically ends up with Pandya and crashes down when Kohli goes off.
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That's Bhuvi. Not your perfect all-rounder (geez, wish we had a Pollock/Azhar Mahmood) but can survive a few overs to support a better batsman. He's injured along with Bumrah.
 
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cricketjoshila said:
I have a life. While you only seem to be looking to discredit Indian players.

Indian fast bowlers should be put on C contract.Isnt that whst you said? Well one is ranked number 1 in Odis. Shami is ranked in top 20 in tests.

Agenda unsuccessful sir.
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So all of a sudden rankings matter for you? Didnt see them mattering when you are trying to discount Pakistani team and its players. Hypocrysy of highest order.
 
Slim said:
So all of a sudden rankings matter for you? Didnt see them mattering when you are trying to discount Pakistani team and its players. Hypocrysy of highest order.
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Ranking ka achaar daalna hai? When we almost concede 300+ in every other game.
 
Bhaag Viru Bhaag said:
Ranking ka achaar daalna hai? When we almost concede 300+ in every other game.
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You arr right. Tbf, when the top 3 strikes, 300 scores become meaningless but thats where the problem lies. The indian approach is very one dimensional..
 
Why dont you give a striaght answer to the question?

1. How many 300 plus scores have Indian bowlers given away since CT 2017?

2.In how many of them did India too scored 300?
 
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BreadPakoda said:
That's Bhuvi. He's injured along with Bumrah.
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Bhuvi can hold a bat but is not an all-rounder IMO, who should ideally average between 25-30, and in crunch situations being able to hold and innings. Bhuvi did play that role with a fifty monitored by Dhoni some time ago against Sri Lanka, but I don't think he can replicate it enough to be called a fast bowling/all-rounder. It's too sporadic, a bit like Wasim Akram before or even Amir now and then.

Nagarkoti, who may make it into the XI as a pace bowler alone in the future (ofc if he works hard), might be that individual, but it's just an hypothesis today. Right now in Indian domestic I think that Ashish Reddy is the closest call.
 
Sam99 said:
I think this guy calls every indian player dud. Pant is basically upgraded and better version of shikhar dhawan with wicket keeping.
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Pant needs some exposure. He is still very young. He should be drafted to the T20 side ringht away and kick Dhoni out of T20 team.

If Pant succeeds in T20's, then he should be given a chance in ODI's. But I guess it is too late now and there is not enough time left to test new players.

Heck, even DK is better than MSD at this point.

Ishan Kishen is a nice slogger too. Pant/Kishen are the type of players that can give the innings great finishes along with Hardik Pandya.

MSD on a good day cannot score at 100 S/R in T20's or ODI's.
 
cricketjoshila said:
Why dont you give a striaght answer to the question?

1. How many 300 plus scores have Indian bowlers given away since CT 2017?

2.In how many of them did India too scored 300?
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Since CT 2017? Did cricket reset itself after CT 2017? Why are you choosing your own filters here? Don't know why it is so hard to understand for guys like you that our bowlers put unnecessary pressure on our batting. I don't think even the guys you tagged will disagree with this. Just chill and take your internet life seriously. You are looking tensed here.
 
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enkidu_ said:
Bhuvi can hold a bat but is not an all-rounder IMO, who should ideally average between 25-30, and in crunch situations being able to hold and innings. Bhuvi did play that role with a fifty monitored by Dhoni some time ago against Sri Lanka, but I don't think he can replicate it enough to be called a fast bowling/all-rounder. It's too sporadic, a bit like Wasim Akram before or even Amir now and then.

Nagarkoti, who may make it into the XI as a pace bowler alone in the future (ofc if he works hard), might be that individual, but it's just an hypothesis today. Right now in Indian domestic I think that Ashish Reddy is the closest call.
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That's what I edited my comment to. :)

It doesn't look like the selectors are going for youngsters at the moment. Nagarkoti will have to go past Shardul, Kaul, Dhawal, Udadkat et al to get a chance. Ashish Reddy is yet to play for the A/B team so again won't get a chance.

We have to do with Pandya, Bhuvi, Kuldeep, Chahal, and Bumrah as our bottom 5.
 
Bhaag Viru Bhaag said:
Since CT 2017? Did cricket reset itself after CT 2017? Why are you choosing your own filters here? Don't know why it is so hard to understand for guys like you that our bowlers put unecessary pressure on our batting. I don't think even the guys you tagged will disagree with this. Just chill and take your internet life seriously. You are looking tensed here.
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Since CT we have changed our bowling nade adjustments. Two wrist spinners play now. Thats more than a 12 month period.

Now please answer this.

Why dont you give a striaght answer to the question?

1. How many 300 plus scores have Indian bowlers given away since CT 2017?

2.In how many of them did India too scored 300?

Then we will see how much pressure us being put on the Indian team.

Dont worry about me.
 
Bhaag Viru Bhaag said:
Our bowlers have a habit of conceding 300 in every other match and fans always believe that this was a 300+ pitch. You can't expect Top 3 to win you every match. Indian fast bowlers should be put in C Grade Contract Category. They don't deserve these millions.
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I actually think the Indian fast bowling has gone better, today they didn’t do such a bad job. I reckon most bowling line ups (including Pakistan) would have conceded 300 bowling first on that pitch. It became harder to bat in the second innings and the legendary Dhoni did make matters worse. I think Indian think tank bowled Kuldeep Yadav poorly today. He was not given a 5-6 over spell, they kept giving him short spells which didn’t unsettle the batsmen but the bowler himself. Then I don’t understand why India has this love for giving spells to mediocre bowlers like Raina. It kills all the momentum from the game. I don’t think too highly of S Kaul. I reckon if India plays their first choice pacers, they are a decent unit.
 
I don't know why but I feel the time is right to field some new guys like pant, Shaw, I feel we need to groom abhishek sharma and Gill as soon as possible also need to introduce saini and khaleel into scheme gopal and gowtham can be tested as these guys can use the long handle and hit big and bat decently, need to groom chahar as well
 
Plus I feel Kohli should play at 4 I know some of you might say why change something that's working but the thing is at 4 Kohli can control the momentum which might not be a bad thing, and let Rahul play freely at 3
 
gazza619 said:
I actually think the Indian fast bowling has gone better, today they didn’t do such a bad job. I reckon most bowling line ups (including Pakistan) would have conceded 300 bowling first on that pitch. It became harder to bat in the second innings and the legendary Dhoni did make matters worse. I think Indian think tank bowled Kuldeep Yadav poorly today. He was not given a 5-6 over spell, they kept giving him short spells which didn’t unsettle the batsmen but the bowler himself. Then I don’t understand why India has this love for giving spells to mediocre bowlers like Raina. It kills all the momentum from the game. I don’t think too highly of S Kaul. I reckon if India plays their first choice pacers, they are a decent unit.
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Some good points highlighted. I would add reckless batting by the openers to it. Rohit was especially over confident and should take some blame too.
 
gazza619 said:
I actually think the Indian fast bowling has gone better, today they didn’t do such a bad job. I reckon most bowling line ups (including Pakistan) would have conceded 300 bowling first on that pitch. It became harder to bat in the second innings and the legendary Dhoni did make matters worse. I think Indian think tank bowled Kuldeep Yadav poorly today. He was not given a 5-6 over spell, they kept giving him short spells which didn’t unsettle the batsmen but the bowler himself. Then I don’t understand why India has this love for giving spells to mediocre bowlers like Raina. It kills all the momentum from the game. I don’t think too highly of S Kaul. I reckon if India plays their first choice pacers, they are a decent unit.
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Yup you are right, I feel we can add rajput, saini and khaleel in this squad instead of kaul as avesh still is pretty raw need a year or two, rajput has got good hight and good pace saini too is 6'2 can bowl quick has a good Yorker and swings it, khaleel is quick plus a left armer and brings the ball in.
 
BreadPakoda said:
That's what I edited my comment to. :)

It doesn't look like the selectors are going for youngsters at the moment. Nagarkoti will have to go past Shardul, Kaul, Dhawal, Udadkat et al to get a chance. Ashish Reddy is yet to play for the A/B team so again won't get a chance.

We have to do with Pandya, Bhuvi, Kuldeep, Chahal, and Bumrah as our bottom 5.
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my bad, replied too fast.

But yeah a fast-bowling/all-rounder is obviously a luxury, you can't have a Kapil Dev every now and then, but considering his stats Ashish Reddy definitely could do well - considering Indian batting if he takes a wicket per 30-35 runs it's more than enough, and in fact he has better stats than some Indian bowlers selected for ODIs -, and his explosive batting down the order could defo help (averages around 35 @ SR +110 in List A's).

Better this than have someone who anyway would take a wicket for the same average, or not at all, but without the extra-batting.
 
cricketjoshila said:
Since CT we have changed our bowling nade adjustments. Two wrist spinners play now. Thats more than a 12 month period.

Now please answer this.

Why dont you give a striaght answer to the question?

1. How many 300 plus scores have Indian bowlers given away since CT 2017?

2.In how many of them did India too scored 300?

Then we will see how much pressure us being put on the Indian team.

Dont worry about me.
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Your first question is funny with your custom made filter. And your second question actually proves you didn't read my post properly. Try again.
 
enkidu_ said:
my bad, replied too fast.

But yeah a fast-bowling/all-rounder is obviously a luxury, you can't have a Kapil Dev every now and then, but considering his stats Ashish Reddy definitely could do well - considering Indian batting if he takes a wicket per 30-35 runs it's more than enough, and in fact he has better stats than some Indian bowlers selected for ODIs -, and his explosive batting down the order could defo help (averages around 35 @ SR +110 in List A's).

Better this than have someone who anyway would take a wicket for the same average, or not at all, but without the extra-batting.
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Interesting. I will be honest I have not followed Reddy a lot. I see that he last played a list A in 2014 which is way long back.

Any way, whoever has to, he would have to replace Bhuvi who is somehow rated very highly in ODIs due to his T20/Test performances. I don't see Bhuvi getting replaced. Of course, no one's getting close to replacing Bumrah who is our best pace bowler (with Shami injured).
 
BreadPakoda said:
Interesting. I will be honest I have not followed Reddy a lot. I see that he last played a list A in 2014 which is way long back.

Any way, whoever has to, he would have to replace Bhuvi who is somehow rated very highly in ODIs due to his T20/Test performances. I don't see Bhuvi getting replaced. Of course, no one's getting close to replacing Bumrah who is our best pace bowler (with Shami injured).
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If you look at this other stats his FC performances are decent as well (from the pov of a bowling all rounder, to average nearly 40 is more than enough, and look at his bowling stats as well obviously). He's not an "IPL star" though, still young, the sample is not huge, but he's the one who can be worked for the role we talk about here. At least from what I know of Indian domestic situation as of today.

And yeah I doubt Bhuvi would be dropped, and I don't even know if the management is really looking for a fast bowling/all-rounder at all. At least for me that's the element which makes the squad imbalanced. Otherwise I think he could replace Bhuvi (he'd average 4-5 more than him, at worst ?), partnering Bumrah and having the spin duo of Chahal-Yadav next to him. Even if Shami plays (with Bumrah) he defo has the numbers to be a third seamer as well (if India goes with three, depending on the conditions), instead of "wasting" a pot on a third seamer who might just average the same, but again without the batting power.
 
I think it's the make up if our lineup. You have Rahul(unproven but talented at 4), a vacant spot at 5, a dhoni who is well past it at 6 and pandya at 7. We need to retire dhoni and slot in pant at 6 and another proper batsman at 5 and hope Rahul comes good quickly as well. Our openers go a l slowly in the first because they know the middle order is weak . A rock solid middle order would mean that Rohit and dhawan can score a bit quicker . However this is delusional as dhoni ain't going anywhere
 
[MENTION=134981]Bhaag Viru Bhaag[/MENTION] if someone agree or dissagree.indian batting other thna top 3 is rubbush and non exixtent Their bowling without one pacer who is number 1 in the ranking is ordinary.so a top class team who want to win major tournaments and every match should have all areas covered.
 
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I always wanted Raina in the Indian team and it was horrendous when he was dropped in 2015 considering a poor ODI player, Rahane, was given chance-after-chance and Raina would compliment very well with MS Dhoni(who has been doing tuk-tuk from a long while).

However, the Raina I saw in IPL 2018 pretty much meant he was done as a cricketer and really no point in picking him anymore as far as 50-over game is concerned.

In contrast, DK has been a late-bloomer and can bat at 5-6.
 
cricketjoshila said:
Let me expose your agenda some more.

How many 300 totals have Indian bowlers conceded since CT 2017?

In how many of those India too scored 300 plus?

Pretty evident what you are doing.

Most here know who is from where.
Click to expand...

Lool, you love this word ‘agenda’ don’t you? Always thinking people are on some agenda.
 
India's biggest problem is selecting Dhoni, Raina, and Karthik in 2018.

Pandya's fans can get offended but he provides no value. He's almost a part timer with the ball and only useful with the bat for a few quick 6s.
 
India have some issues with bowling but their main issue for me is their lower middle order. Dhoni is past his best. Hardik is still learning the finishing role. Raina seems past it. Surely India have better and younger opitions than Raina.
 
Hasan123 said:
India have some issues with bowling but their main issue for me is their lower middle order. Dhoni is past his best. Hardik is still learning the finishing role. Raina seems past it. Surely India have better and younger opitions than Raina.
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You drop Dhoni and Raina and bring young Indian guns, you will see a big difference. Virat Kohli looks less hungry and a bit tired to be honest. I wont blame him, all the cricket this guy plays, he is bound to be tired mentally and physically.
 
gazza619 said:
You drop Dhoni and Raina and bring young Indian guns, you will see a big difference. Virat Kohli looks less hungry and a bit tired to be honest. I wont blame him, all the cricket this guy plays, he is bound to be tired mentally and physically.
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Kohli isn't the issue in this Indian team. He is entering his peak years now but he needs support .
 
Get the top 3. Watch them crumble. Any one of Sharma, Kohli and Dhawan out of form will be instant death for India at the World Cup
 
It's sad but I think it's just Dhoni. Granted I only watched him bat in this ODI's highlights after some time, but he looked really washed up as a batsman. Replace him with some youth and the batting should be good.
 
India can be out batted as well. As seen yesterday and in the final against Pak last year that there batting can also come under immense pressure if the opposition bats first scoring over 300. Then you got them right where you want them! There Kohli Sholi's will be sent back to the dressing him in a hurry!! England killed India with the bat yesterday!
 
Rohit
Dhawan
Kohli
Rahul
______
Dhoni(wkt)
Pandya
Bhuvi
Kuldeep
Chahal
Bumrah

I think India are trying to fill the vacant 5th spot by giving many players chance out there.

Raina, Pandey, Rahane, Jadhav wont really help IMO and definitely not with Dhoni at 6. I thought Raina could work but I dont think he will be a good option now that he is almost done although he can click at times, even in crunch games.

Dk or maybe some youngster can be tried at 5 IMO but with Dhoni at 6, India probably need someone who can go aggressive enough at 5.
 
cricketjoshila said:
He was dud?

Played 3T20Is. Thats all. Isnt it?

Scored 35 odd in one. Or am i wrong?

He hasnt got chances.
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Pant will massacre any attack in these kind of wickets and Maggie noodle sized grounds.
India is the only team where he won't be picked and given a consistent run
 
On current form, DK should be in place of Raina and I will punt with Rishab for few games in place of MSD.

Bumrah, BK and Shami will be starting in most WC games, so we will be good at that front, VK will always play 5 bowlers. KL Rahul needs to become consistent, probably he can be tried at opening slot in place of Dhawan/ Rohit for few games. Kohli has to be @ no.3 where he has been so successful in so many games, rest all spots can be played around.
 
AamchiMumbaikar said:
On current form, DK should be in place of Raina and I will punt with Rishab for few games in place of MSD.

Bumrah, BK and Shami will be starting in most WC games, so we will be good at that front, VK will always play 5 bowlers. KL Rahul needs to become consistent, probably he can be tried at opening slot in place of Dhawan/ Rohit for few games. Kohli has to be @ no.3 where he has been so successful in so many games, rest all spots can be played around.
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I doubt shami will be picked for worldcups (looks doubtful will be part of xi test series as well) and just tell me what has kl rahul done to deserve spot in opening? Why should kohli make way for kl rahul? KL has to play at #4 or just sit out. Doesn't make sense for opening when we already got best top 3 in world. If he can't play at #4 just drop him.
 
Need to give Pant a chance at 5 without dropping MSD ,that'll satisfy both camps.But Kohli-shastri don't have guts for that.Yesterday's result was concerning on the batting front,but on bowling front if bhuvi and bumrah had been playing england would not have crossed 300.
 
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Usman Chadda said:
Get the top 3. Watch them crumble. Any one of Sharma, Kohli and Dhawan out of form will be instant death for India at the World Cup
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Exactly my thoughts. Rohit Dhawan and Kohli have been carrying this team for a long time, all other faults are hidden, but once these 3 donot perform India bite the dust.

For all his "talent" Rahul is too inconsistent to be called reliable.

Raina is good for 30's 40's cameos max

Defender Dhoni is just going through motions, preserving his energy till the world cup. What he will do there is anyone's guess.
 
Our middle order in ODIs has been medicore for far too long. And yet Kohli seems intent on going to the WC with Raina and Dhoni. Anyone watching these two knows they are in a terminal decline, their IPL performance notwithstanding. When was the last time Dhoni made any contribution in a chase of 280+. Everytime we have chased such high scores is when we have had one in the top 3 scoring a 100. Dhoni is there to score those 20s and 30s, kill all the momentum by consuming too many balls, hit out in 49th and 50th over, remain not out with the media shouting what a finisher.

Instead of taking the problem head on, Kohli is still in law of the legend. As predicted in multiple posts, that respect will keep biting us badly. Giving respect to a legend does not mean carrying a deadwood beyond his sell by date.
 
It’s hard to win matches when your top order fails. You’re talking about 4 world class batsmen. India has a long tail which isn’t helping and we have a wicketkeeper batsman who feels insecure. Things get a lot harder when you lose 3 wickets in 2 overs while chasing a 300+ score.

I have one more point to make. I see threads criticising Dhoni’s approach but you have to criticise the approach of some of the top order batsmen too. They got out playing reckless shots. Kohli is the only batsman in that top 4 who genuinely tries to win games. The other three are reckless. I know it’s a serious accusation but watch the highlights before you argue with me. Shikhar Dhawan played reckless shots and got out early in both ODIs. Rohit did the same thing yesterday. KL Rahul was unlucky yesterday but he threw his wicket away in that T20 match. We have the luxury of having 4 match winners as our top order. If one of them bats long enough we’ll win most games. That’s not asking too much. So I don’t agree with this “if the top order fails” argument. Your top 4 batsmen aren’t supposed to fail together. Raina’s form as a batsman is another issue but I feel it’s temporary.
 
Nothing justifies Dhoni's pathetic selfish approach. A knock which would have raised massive suspicions if it was someone else batting. He and Raina sucked out all the momentum by eating up deliveries, by the time Pandya walked in they had lost all hope.

Not that this was not known to some of us. Have been writing about how damaging these two are for Indian LOI team.
 
Mr.Q said:
It’s hard to win matches when your top order fails. You’re talking about 4 world class batsmen. India has a long tail which isn’t helping and we have a wicketkeeper batsman who feels insecure. Things get a lot harder when you lose 3 wickets in 2 overs while chasing a 300+ score.

I have one more point to make. I see threads criticising Dhoni’s approach but you have to criticise the approach of some of the top order batsmen too. They got out playing reckless shots. Kohli is the only batsman in that top 4 who genuinely tries to win games. The other three are reckless. I know it’s a serious accusation but watch the highlights before you argue with me. Shikhar Dhawan played reckless shots and got out early in both ODIs. Rohit did the same thing yesterday. KL Rahul was unlucky yesterday but he threw his wicket away in that T20 match. We have the luxury of having 4 match winners as our top order. If one of them bats long enough we’ll win most games. That’s not asking too much. So I don’t agree with this “if the top order fails” argument. Your top 4 batsmen aren’t supposed to fail together. Raina’s form as a batsman is another issue but I feel it’s temporary.
Click to expand...

+1. If your team is 60/3 after 12, any team would struggle to put up 250.

Though, the middle order can be strengthened, if the top 4 fail, its the end of most matches. Only occasionaly have teams recovered from such collapses.
 
The_Odd_One said:
India's biggest problem is selecting Dhoni, Raina, and Karthik in 2018.

Pandya's fans can get offended but he provides no value. He's almost a part timer with the ball and only useful with the bat for a few quick 6s.
Click to expand...

I agree. Pandya is one player who doesn't have 1000 first class runs or 50 first class wickets and yet gets compared to Stoke, it's a joke. Karthik's new found reputation is built on one 8-10 ball inning against Bangladesh in a t20. He has played 80 ODI games for India and has never failed to disappoint. Yet all of a sudden people think he's the next big thing. Then you have Raina and Dhoni, well less said the better. Outside CSK jerseys, they struggle to play spin or pace.
 
To me India has missed the trick of not nurturing their really talented teenagers, Indian U-19 has some of very talented players, they should have injected them now when some of their main players were missing. Two fast blowers were very good, atleast one of them should have been in the squad.

S Gill, another teener batsman, who I see as ideal for Kohli's replaced and can bat at no 4. They should have opted for him rather than KL Rahul and Raine. Rahul's competition is with Sharma and Dhawane, he is not suited for no 4. Gill is mush more well rounded player, he suite in that roll and should be brought into test team in next home tour. You cannot waste him in domestic and ensure he will nature, his game will degrade in 3/4 years, if he continue to play domestic and IPL only...At times International teams are blinded sided by T20 league success. You cannot make your entire ODI or test lineup with heavy biased of T20 leagues, that is a major flaw in strategy!!

In general if I have to pick a teenage and 24/25 year old player, where teener is even 70% of his talent. I will go for him, because there is lot more upside. When you are introduced to higher quality of competition early, it helps to develop your game faster and can reach your potential...Look at France in WC, they pick younger side, not just for this WC, they can come back in two more, could be dynasty in the making... India could have done similar, by injecting two teenagers, but like in Pakistan, India also has tendency of giving farewell WC to seniors :(
 
PakLFC said:
India can be out batted as well. As seen yesterday and in the final against Pak last year that there batting can also come under immense pressure if the opposition bats first scoring over 300. Then you got them right where you want them! There Kohli Sholi's will be sent back to the dressing him in a hurry!! England killed India with the bat yesterday!
Click to expand...

How many times have the opposition scored 300 vs India since CT 2017?

If it was that easy to sent Kohli Sholi's back they wouldnt be put into future ATG category. They dont fluke 300+ once in a while like Pakistan did in CT 2017.
 
Mainul said:
No.Bevan was never such a selfish.He was a true teamman unlike MSD.
Click to expand...
Than give him some fair play awards or a medal for being selfless.Nothing else.
Best finisher is decided only by what their overall record is and how many times they have snatched victory from jaws of opponent.
Both of them have done it many times but its the str rate part where dhoni trumps bevan.Msd was much more agressive.
 
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