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Is the inverse happening at the moment - Pakistan is good at batting and India is good at bowling

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dravidthewall

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Hii in recent time we have seen pakistan getting better at batting ,but bowling is going downfall, same case india bowling is improving ,but batting is concern. Earlier we have seen pakistan produce many great bowlers like wasim waqar akther.Same india ganguly sachin dravid.Can the vice versa happened in recent time??
 
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Pak's lower middle order is pretty impressive. Rizwan is fantastic while Faheem and Yasir can contribute handy runs. Overall Indian batting is much superior though, I think even most Pakistani posters will agree on that.
 
Lol at pakistan is good at batting. Like LOL
 
dravidthewall said:
Hii in recent time we have seen pakistan getting better at batting ,but bowling is going downfall, same case india bowling is improving ,but batting is concern. Earlier we have seen pakistan produce many great bowlers like wasim waqar akther.Same india ganguly sachin dravid.Can the vice versa happened in recent time??
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How do you get an idea that Pakistan batting is getting better, today we were 0 for loss of 2 wickets, in 1st inns, we were like 50 for loss of 5 & in recent concluded T2o series we were 4 down in 4 overs, Indian batting although very weak as per their standards but it's faaaar better than Pakistan's batting
 
Hyperion66 said:
Pak's lower middle order is pretty impressive. Rizwan is fantastic while Faheem and Yasir can contribute handy runs. Overall Indian batting is much superior though, I think even most Pakistani posters will agree on that.
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Agreed.

We have the better keeper batsman and the lower-middle order can somehow miraculously compile runs which our top order tries to avoid doing.

India's top 5 is just amazing, and the bulk of their runs come from the top order as opposed to the middle order.

In terms of bowling, India has played a lot more test matches, which is not an excuse for our poor bowling, but it has allowed them to keep a consistent combination of players. Instead of using certain players for certain things, they have focused on individual player development to carry on the consistency in the bowling, which is quite commendable. Look at the transformation of Ishant Sharma, from a wacky disorganized bowler to a wicket-taking machine.
 
I get the impression that OP meant to say something along the lines of that they feel PAK's dominant suit is batting (in comparison to its own bowling) and vice-versa for IND. Given that this was historically not the case, I can see why the OP started the thread.... do correct me if I have misunderstood.

Rest assured, PAK's bowling has regressed to the point of making it seem like PAK's batting has improved. Just a matter of comparatives and the mirage this has created needs to be addressed. Like most other things in PAK cricket.

In India's case, yes your middle order is no longer packed with SRT, RD, VVS etc. but overall your bowling has improved to fire in tandem with the batting.
 
Pakistan doesn't have any dominant suit right now. Even for tests at home, we'll struggle to dominate with an ageing Yasir shah and hardly any decent spin option available

India is slightly worse in batting (Compared to their historical standards) but this is their best ever bowling attack by a far stretch. Bowling is what makes you win overseas tests. There is no substitute for taking 20 wickets in a test especially in a country like Australia where foreign bowlers have always struggled
 
Lol Pakistan is not good at anything apart from letting Misbah dominate things in Pakistan Cricket without any accountability
 
Pakistan's batting is fragile and poor. They are disorganized and lack match awareness.
 
I see your point. Well made!

Also by implication today's Indian bowling lineup is only as good as today's Pak batting lineup. Yup, agree with that too.
 
Babar has improved a lot more than any of our young bats. If you think about it, none of our young batsmen have improved and have, in fact, regressed which is an alarming trend since we supposedly develop batsmen better. However, I dont expect any improvements as long as the egomaniacal duo of Kohli and Shastri are in charge.
 
Not really. Ind have won a test in Australia, we can't buy a win. We have 2 decent bats - Babar and Riz the rest are rubbish and wouldn't even be decent county players.
 
Not the best time to open this thread :) Maybe in 2025 we can bump it and give OP full marks for seeing things we can't see at the moment.

However, I suspect OP is saying is that Pakistan's batting is less garbage than bowling at the moment and India's bowling is better than their batting.
 
Hyperion66 said:
Pak's lower middle order is pretty impressive. Rizwan is fantastic while Faheem and Yasir can contribute handy runs. Overall Indian batting is much superior though, I think even most Pakistani posters will agree on that.
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Whaaat? Faheem has played the first good innings in his whole career, Yasir is just your everyday number 8.

Maybe they look impressive because our aging top order is utter garbage.
 
hitthestump said:
Whaaat? Faheem has played the first good innings in his whole career, Yasir is just your everyday number 8.

Maybe they look impressive because our aging top order is utter garbage.
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If shadab had played it would be a very impressive lower order with shdab at 7 and fahim at 8
 
Pakistan good at batting? Since when.

Their top order are walking wickets with the exception of Babar Azam. Lacking bottle, technique, mental toughness or the ability to play long innings.
 
Hyperion66 said:
Overall Indian batting is much superior though, I think even most Pakistani posters will agree on that.
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Absolutely.

Babar is the only quality player we have in tests and also its good to see Rizwan playing some decent knocks in SENA otherwise we have just a few 30+ year old average (At max) players in our current test lineup.

T20 batting lineup is pretty ordinary too with some players who struggle to up the anti when required while some players who are yet trying to find their feet.

ODI lineup of Pak is bit acceptable in comparison to other formats with Imam and Haris also showing some quality on occasions to back Babar.

So overall not a good enough lineup to be consistently in the top 5 in any format currently. Bowling doesnt have much to right home about currently. I do believe Pak has some players to improve both aspects to an extent but then mismanagement of the available resources is also a known problem.
 
Titan24 said:
Absolutely.

Babar is the only quality player we have in tests and also its good to see Rizwan playing some decent knocks in SENA otherwise we have just a few 30+ year old average (At max) players in our current test lineup.

T20 batting lineup is pretty ordinary too with some players who struggle to up the anti when required while some players who are yet trying to find their feet.

ODI lineup of Pak is bit acceptable in comparison to other formats with Imam and Haris also showing some quality on occasions to back Babar.

So overall not a good enough lineup to be consistently in the top 5 in any format currently. Bowling doesnt have much to right home about currently. I do believe Pak has some players to improve both aspects to an extent but then mismanagement of the available resources is also a known problem.
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Actually your test batting is quite underated even in this forum. They may not be very skillful bar Babar but are gritty, resilient and have got the right temperament.
Many posters have this blind allegiance towards bowlers that they would bash the batting even when they kept you compititive till the last session of day 5 while conveniently shielding your largely harmless bowling.

Also it is absolutely crazy how Rizwan and Fawad was ignored for so long, especially Fawad. Poor dude spent his best and most productive years toiling in the domestics.
 
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Hyperion66 said:
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Also it is absolutely crazy how Rizwan and Fawad was ignored for so long, especially Fawad. Poor dude spent his best and most productive years toiling in the domestics.
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Fawad is definitely one of the worst treated players in last decade. He should have played much more tests during his peak.
 
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Pakistan is a much better team batting second whilst chasing. That's 100% incontrovertible.

In tests ofcourse.

As for first innings, India is better as they can post bigger totals. Overall I would say lower order Pakistan is superior. Middle order is about equal. India is better top4.
 
dravidthewall said:
Hii in recent time we have seen pakistan getting better at batting ,but bowling is going downfall, same case india bowling is improving ,but batting is concern. Earlier we have seen pakistan produce many great bowlers like wasim waqar akther.Same india ganguly sachin dravid.Can the vice versa happened in recent time??
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LOL. In which parallel fantasy universe do you get this feeling? The team is not even able to cross 300 mark, the openers come & go faster than a blink of eye and our so called most experienced batsman Azhar Ali is in the league of other teams' tailenders. The rest of our current lot is still unproven and have a long way to go before anything can be said about any of them with confidence.

If it wasn't for Babar Azam, Pakistan wouldn't even have a batsman in the current top 10s so how on earth can you say Pak batting has improved.
 
tyron_woodley said:
Pakistan is a much better team batting second whilst chasing. That's 100% incontrovertible.

In tests ofcourse.

As for first innings, India is better as they can post bigger totals. Overall I would say lower order Pakistan is superior. Middle order is about equal. India is better top4.
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We have unsettled opener(s), number#3 is walking wicket mostly outside Asia(2018 Aus series was anomaly) and Kohli have forgotten to score daddy hundreds. We have no settle top4 by any means.
S Gill have brought some fresh hope to our fragile line up but others are struggling massively. Our batting is literally carried by 2-3 batsmen while rest are hit or miss. How I miss Sehwag, Tendulkar, Dravid, and Laxman days when we had Fab4 in top 5.
 
tyron_woodley said:
Pakistan is a much better team batting second whilst chasing. That's 100% incontrovertible.

In tests ofcourse.

As for first innings, India is better as they can post bigger totals. Overall I would say lower order Pakistan is superior. Middle order is about equal. India is better top4.
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Do you have any stats to back this up?

As far as I can see, Pakistan has won only 1 test match batting last (out of 5) against decent opposition in the last 3 years as compared to India s 2 out of 8. Not that India has done spectacularly better but it is not terrible as well.

Overall if you take (across all innings), in last 3 years, India s batting avg is around 31.4 vs Pak s 29.4 vs top 8 test nations.

NB : Of course India leads bowling averages in this period (24.52 - by far best among all nations) vs Pak (32.8)
 
ShoaibM said:
I see your point. Well made!

Also by implication today's Indian bowling lineup is only as good as today's Pak batting lineup. Yup, agree with that too.
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Only difference is Indian bowling winning them matches in overseas conditions while pak batting is losing matches very badly.
 
Sir Alex said:
Do you have any stats to back this up?

As far as I can see, Pakistan has won only 1 test match batting last (out of 5) against decent opposition in the last 3 years as compared to India s 2 out of 8. Not that India has done spectacularly better but it is not terrible as well.

Overall if you take (across all innings), in last 3 years, India s batting avg is around 31.4 vs Pak s 29.4 vs top 8 test nations.

NB : Of course India leads bowling averages in this period (24.52 - by far best among all nations) vs Pak (32.8)
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India chased 70 last time. When has India last crossed 200 outside India in second innings? Please tell me.

Pakistan have several times.
 
tyron_woodley said:
India chased 70 last time. When has India last crossed 200 outside India in second innings? Please tell me.

Pakistan have several times.
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Since 2018 I can remember india scoring 247 in the third innings of the Johannesburg test and 352-7d in the 3rd innings of the trent bridge test and 335 in the fourth innings of the London oval test and 307 in the third innings of the Adelaide test in 2018-19. These are the India's best second innings scores in overseas over the last two years.
 
tyron_woodley said:
India chased 70 last time. When has India last crossed 200 outside India in second innings? Please tell me.

Pakistan have several times.
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Assuming you are talking about 4th innings, in last 3 years, not much..

Aside from the 70/2, there is Oval 2018 in which we made 345. Remaining all 6 innings we scored below 200.

In Pak s case, there are just two 200 plus 4th innings scores in the same period, both of which they lost by over 100 runs.

So I still don't see your point how Pak is much better than India of late in 4th innings in SENA. But yes, India is quite bad no doubt.. There were Birmingham , Southampton, Cape Town and Centurion where they were chasing 280 or less and where India could have won with a bit more application in batting.
 
Sir Alex said:
Assuming you are talking about 4th innings, in last 3 years, not much..

Aside from the 70/2, there is Oval 2018 in which we made 345. Remaining all 6 innings we scored below 200.

In Pak s case, there are just two 200 plus 4th innings scores in the same period, both of which they lost by over 100 runs.

So I still don't see your point how Pak is much better than India of late in 4th innings in SENA. But yes, India is quite bad no doubt.. There were Birmingham , Southampton, Cape Town and Centurion where they were chasing 280 or less and where India could have won with a bit more application in batting.
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Ah yes. My bad. You are right. Since we lost several easy chases under 200, I totally forgot we actually posted bigger totals in losing causes. So maybe we better then I suppose. Still a lot can be improved.
 
You have to agree that Pakistani batting got better with the emergence of Babar Azam. Their middle order is decent and tail is better than India’s tail. But Indian batting is still far ahead of Pakistan batting atm.
 
Indian have mastered the art of trolling. Only rizwan& babar are decent other are inconsistent and not good enough
 
saeed5646 said:
Indian have mastered the art of trolling. Only rizwan& babar are decent other are inconsistent and not good enough
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Lol we aren't trolling. Pakistan tail is genuinely better than us. Middle order is comparable. Top order is where the difference is big.
 
Yk313 said:
I get the impression that OP meant to say something along the lines of that they feel PAK's dominant suit is batting (in comparison to its own bowling) and vice-versa for IND. Given that this was historically not the case, I can see why the OP started the thread.... do correct me if I have misunderstood.
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I think this is the best way to interpret this thread. And is a good point probably true and worthy of debate.
 
So how has the Pak system managed to churn out a Babar Azam. Is it all about the family influence. Surely there are a few other batsmen in the team who prevent the team from regularly churning out humiliating totals. And if so, how come Pak aren't producing above-average bowlers (barring Shaheen Afridi) considering bowling heroes historical influence etc.
 
pillionrider said:
So how has the Pak system managed to churn out a Babar Azam. Is it all about the family influence. Surely there are a few other batsmen in the team who prevent the team from regularly churning out humiliating totals. And if so, how come Pak aren't producing above-average bowlers (barring Shaheen Afridi) considering bowling heroes historical influence etc.
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Babar has the right mix of natural talent, discipline and coaching from an early age to end up ready for international cricket by around age 21. Being related to Pak legend K Akmal helped in that it would mean easier exposure to high level coaching.

Problem with all the half baked players coming through the system is either a) no natural ability (Shan Masood) b) no discipline (M Asif; not half baked but exceptional talent with zero disicipline) or c) no exposure to proper coaching, I don’t know what examples to use for but I guess any cricketer which hails from a region without something like the NCA in Lahore. I don’t think even Karachi which is the most populous city has a cricketing academy at the caliber of the NCA (where iirc Babar frequented as a kid in youth squads).

Might explain why batsmen like Fawad and Sarfraz who are from Karachi have a bit of a “hacky” technique. Maybe.
 
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Yk313 said:
I get the impression that OP meant to say something along the lines of that they feel PAK's dominant suit is batting (in comparison to its own bowling) and vice-versa for IND. Given that this was historically not the case, I can see why the OP started the thread.... do correct me if I have misunderstood.

Rest assured, PAK's bowling has regressed to the point of making it seem like PAK's batting has improved. Just a matter of comparatives and the mirage this has created needs to be addressed. Like most other things in PAK cricket.

In India's case, yes your middle order is no longer packed with SRT, RD, VVS etc. but overall your bowling has improved to fire in tandem with the batting.
Click to expand...

I created this thread because, india recently get 36 allout and there is no middle order batsman reliable apart from kohli . pakistan did well in last test from 75-4 to strech score 271 while chasing, they almost draw the match, its pak bowling that let them down. Pak batting is really improved and babar azam is best example for that.
 
Hope so. We need an ATG bowler alongside Kapil, Kumble and Ashwin to make a formidable test all time XI.
 
As i said pakistan batting has improved. Today again they performed well against kiwi in 2nd test.
 
We’re batting better than India did against NZ, that too without Babar, but generally speaking India still has the much higher quality.
 
True. I'm pleasantly surprised by Pakistan's batting prowess in NZ. They're doing way better than what we did in the previous tour to NZ. Rizwan looks a billion dollars better than good-for-nothing Sarfaraz. Will be happy for them if they win this test. They deserve it totally.
 
Thunderbolt14 said:
We’re batting better than India did against NZ, that too without Babar, but generally speaking India still has the much higher quality.
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More like India had quality. I think your current test batsmen is of much better quality than our current bunch against moving ball. You can see that how your batsmen performed in England and Newzealand. May be they’re not much affected by T20.
 
Over past one month, teams have proved that with/without logic don't work in international cricket.

India loses Adelaide with Kohli and Shami but wins Melbourne without them. Rahane was sitting duck before Melbourne and with added responsibility he became a different man altogether.
 
Dingolfy said:
More like India had quality. I think your current test batsmen is of much better quality than our current bunch against moving ball. You can see that how your batsmen performed in England and Newzealand. May be they’re not much affected by T20.
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Honestly

I would rather have the batsman who perform in Australia rather than the swing specialist batsman

It has to do with our constant and utter humiliation in Australia

I always cheer India when they're in Australia just hate how they bully us around in Australia...
 
jeeteshssaxena said:
Pakistan always bats better than India in England and New Zealand.
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Yes , Pak batsmen are inherently better at playing swing than Indians

However Indians are much better playing spin and pace and bounce. Which is a reason why Pak struggles so much in Aus.
 
Sir Alex said:
Yes , Pak batsmen are inherently better at playing swing than Indians

However Indians are much better playing spin and pace and bounce. Which is a reason why Pak struggles so much in Aus.
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Only reason being Pakistani players play county cricket otherwise India would excel there too
 
Not at all, India has a very good all round team compared to Pakistan.
 
Take a bow Indian fast bowling. They are deadly nowadays.

Shami defying age like a champion.

I want to know what Shami adds in his Roohafza
 
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