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Is the stat-padding culture hurting Pakistan cricket?
- Thread starter Saj
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Or is it some inane trust in later order to do some magic to win games for Pakistan?
Amjid Javed
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But imam scored at a strike rate off over a 100. it was rest of batsmens fault for not scoring at strike rate of 500.
On a serious note there is no place for both imam and babar in ODI side.
I’ve been saying this for time the whole team has this disease of stat paddling and some players are just not good enough to even do that.
The fact is we need an Umar akmal and Haider Ali type of player in the team atleast with them you get what you see. None of this stat paddling with them if they get going can win you the match just like Razzaq did in his get days.
Tbh it’s coming from the captain this stat paddling and playing for your averages he needs to be axed asap as captain
Sycamore
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They both need a proper dressing down. But who will do it ? Don't see anyone in the coaching setup, maybe if Hayden was around.
Why should the middle order go at 10 rpo, when babar and co can just go along nicely with the new ball which is generally the best time to bat.
Why should the middle order go at 10 rpo, when babar and co can just go along nicely with the new ball which is generally the best time to bat.
Major
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Not their mistake.
You need a proper coach who helps you in making a strategy to with in the game. When you have no coach, your strategy will always be a flawed one.
The issue is the new pcb culture under Rameez Raja. Rameez has said that coaches are useless and make no difference, thus Pakistan doesnt need one.
Not having a proper coach the result is there for everyone to see.
Saqlain Mushtaq was always hired as a spin bowling coach, he never got a head coach job because that is not his expertise.
Even when Misbah was coach, we had a separate bowling and separate batting coach, because the head coaches focus is on making a strategy and guiding the players with the strategy.
Babar is gonna be criticized unnecessarily, but it was not babar who told rameez raja to fire coaches or not bother to bring in a head coach. This was Rameez Raja's decision and Babar should not be bashed because of the chairman's stupidity.
Infact, Rameez Raja was a direct political appointee by the Prime Minister of Pakistan. He wasn't even a BOG member in the first place. He was added in the BOG so that he can be elected in as a Chairman. See how flaw the PCB constitution is?
You need a proper coach who helps you in making a strategy to with in the game. When you have no coach, your strategy will always be a flawed one.
The issue is the new pcb culture under Rameez Raja. Rameez has said that coaches are useless and make no difference, thus Pakistan doesnt need one.
Not having a proper coach the result is there for everyone to see.
Saqlain Mushtaq was always hired as a spin bowling coach, he never got a head coach job because that is not his expertise.
Even when Misbah was coach, we had a separate bowling and separate batting coach, because the head coaches focus is on making a strategy and guiding the players with the strategy.
Babar is gonna be criticized unnecessarily, but it was not babar who told rameez raja to fire coaches or not bother to bring in a head coach. This was Rameez Raja's decision and Babar should not be bashed because of the chairman's stupidity.
Infact, Rameez Raja was a direct political appointee by the Prime Minister of Pakistan. He wasn't even a BOG member in the first place. He was added in the BOG so that he can be elected in as a Chairman. See how flaw the PCB constitution is?
Zaz
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They cant bat like that Game was lost when babar got out They used up too many balls n left too much for the rest
5 an over isnt acceptable when u need 6.5 from the off
This strategy is outdated and doesnt work in 2022
5 an over isnt acceptable when u need 6.5 from the off
This strategy is outdated and doesnt work in 2022
Hahah no space for imam and Babar. This is the funniest post I have seen on PP. Can you please name the alternative. Pakistani fans are the worst.
And misbah isn’t the right coach.
Amjid Javed
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50 dot balls from 118 is nothing short of disgraceful.
Major
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and what about Marcus Stoinis innings?
hitthestump
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Indeed. I don't know what planet some fans are on.
Sycamore
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Did stoinis come in at opening or number 3 position ?
Him and Green were the last remaining batsmen.
Everything makes sense if you realize that Babar Azam is a selfish player. Such behavior eventually negatively affect everyone in the team. There is a reason why Karachi Kings had such a bad losing streak. He is not a leader and plays for his own stats.
Major
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doesnt it matter what position he came in, the innings he played where he completely slow down things, was that justifiable?
cricketerB94
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No, they were just playing for a draw in this match.. Oh wait, it was a ODI match.
We are a poor team and people here are acting as if we have tendulkars waiting on the bench. Take these 2 along with fakhar and Shaheen. We will be struggling to compete with Hong Kong etc.
I am glad he did the way he did in psl got himself in form. Psl should be used as a practice ground.
Kianig89
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Pakistan played it like a Natwest Series game of early 00s
Ahmed216
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Are we talking about pak side? Sadly imam and babar are one of the best we’ve got. We just need to lower our expectations. Because this rotten stat padding culture will always produce such selfish players. That’s how cricket is played in Pak. Don’t think we’ve got the talent to push reset button like Eng did after 2015 WC.
Mainul
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Please see the video of how India won NatWest trophy in 2002 chasing 325
Spitfire
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Now you speak like [MENTION=131701]Mamoon[/MENTION] Bud!
The bigger picture is that how will Pakistan successfully compete in the next ODI World Cup which is being held in the Sub Continent if they fail to dominate in Asian conditions.
The bigger picture is that how will Pakistan successfully compete in the next ODI World Cup which is being held in the Sub Continent if they fail to dominate in Asian conditions.
Here is what Babar has to say:
Pakistan captain Babar Azam: "We let them score too many runs in the first ten overs. We started poorly and then gave away too many runs at the death. While Imam and I were batting, we felt we had the chase under control but then lost wickets in clumps and couldn't recover."
The thing with slow strike rate is, it puts unnecessarily more pressure on other batsman at crease and then throughout the batting line up as whoever will come next will have to compensate for the poor strike rate of players batted earlier. This result in loss of wickets
Pakistan captain Babar Azam: "We let them score too many runs in the first ten overs. We started poorly and then gave away too many runs at the death. While Imam and I were batting, we felt we had the chase under control but then lost wickets in clumps and couldn't recover."
The thing with slow strike rate is, it puts unnecessarily more pressure on other batsman at crease and then throughout the batting line up as whoever will come next will have to compensate for the poor strike rate of players batted earlier. This result in loss of wickets
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I always found this coaching angle to be complete nonsense. These guys aren’t some gully players. These are experienced international players. They should be able to assess the situation themselves and adjust they’re style of play accordingly. What is this coaching nonsense. Both these players have enough games under their belt to realize what they were doing today from the start cost Pakistan this match.
And now compare it with this innings of Kohli. There is a reason why Kohli was called Master of Chase. Strike rate matters a lot in chase. Kohli did that with better average! World is full of players can still do it with lower strike rate but they have to be selfish enough to do it consistently for the losing cause.
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Major
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You may find it nonsense, but in every sport there is a coach that exists. Its not about gully players
Australia has bought in two spinners, yet they had to hired Daniel Vettori as a spin coach to help only those two players and the batsmen to play spin.
At the end of the day, coaches make a difference, if you are gonna play without a coach than todays result along with the test result are an example.
Don't think Babar or Imam was the issue today. Yes, they batted slow - but, there isn't an iota of evidence to say if Rizwan, Saud, Khushdil, Iftikhar got more overs to bat, or had to score at 6 rpo for 25 overs, they would have easily managed that.
Pakistan's middle order is as fragile as a toothpick, and I am more convinced now that these guys can only last 5-10 overs collectively at max, and that too will yield results only when batting first.
Utterly disappointed and embarrassed that 4 batters from No.4-7 managed only 34 runs. That is beyond abysmal, and it's not the first time it has happened.
Good teams have strength in batting and someone always puts their hands up. It was Green today. It will be Carey tomorrow. Our batters peed pants up.
Pakistan's middle order is as fragile as a toothpick, and I am more convinced now that these guys can only last 5-10 overs collectively at max, and that too will yield results only when batting first.
Utterly disappointed and embarrassed that 4 batters from No.4-7 managed only 34 runs. That is beyond abysmal, and it's not the first time it has happened.
Good teams have strength in batting and someone always puts their hands up. It was Green today. It will be Carey tomorrow. Our batters peed pants up.
msb314
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This. Fully agree
msb314
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Agree that Babar did not cover himself in glory today but FAkhar, Saud and Rizwan need to have a hard look at themselves..
msb314
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1. Completely different pitch
2. Kohli had both of his openers score hundreds that game. Kind of easier to bat when you come in at 180/1.
topspin
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This stems from Misbah's batting culture and mindset. Pakistan still has some way to go to undo the mess he created.
Pakistan batted slowly in virtually all T20 matches of world cup. Rizwan/Malik accelerated against Namibia and Scotland but both starts were very slow.
Against India/Nzl/Afg/Aus
Pakistan never started with wow factor like 60 runs in 5 overs. Partly that was the factor they could not reach 190+ in SF and were cautious against Zampa.
It has been a while since our limited over team takes on the opposition team. They do not fear us. In past opposition used to be fearful of people like Zaheer Abbass, saeed Anwar, that they can take the game away from us on their own. Current team only Wow factor is Fakhar zaman. If he fires he can be like Sehwag on his day.
Against India/Nzl/Afg/Aus
Pakistan never started with wow factor like 60 runs in 5 overs. Partly that was the factor they could not reach 190+ in SF and were cautious against Zampa.
It has been a while since our limited over team takes on the opposition team. They do not fear us. In past opposition used to be fearful of people like Zaheer Abbass, saeed Anwar, that they can take the game away from us on their own. Current team only Wow factor is Fakhar zaman. If he fires he can be like Sehwag on his day.
Remove their score and we all out for around 70. Pakistani fans think we have don bradmans sitting on the bench.
Savak
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I think we should accept the fact that the players are not good enough as the Australians have exposed. These players are good enough for our domestic cricket and PSL but always get exposed at the international level against top teams.
sweep_shot
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Too many blockers in the team.
Babar, Imam, Rizwan, and Shakeel. 4 blockers.
Need 1 or 2 aggressive ones. Someone like Sharjeel.
Babar, Imam, Rizwan, and Shakeel. 4 blockers.
Need 1 or 2 aggressive ones. Someone like Sharjeel.
No a lot of them were shocking at domestic and psl level. Hasan is awful so was waseem jnr, Asif Ali etc.
Amjid Javed
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Saud came in the req run rate was 7.46 (imam strike rate at time was 80)
rizwan came in strike rate req was 7.86 ( imam strike rate was 87 at the time)
ifti came in strike rate req was 8.57 (imam strike rate 88 at the time)
so we have a so called "set batsmen scoring at less then a run a ball and the scoring rate is climbing and the new batsmen not only has to score quickly, take risks straight away because the set batsmen is in no rush to help the inns along.
Amjid Javed
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Both bat like snails which is detrimental to team scoring big totals when chasing. If you cant see that then your fooling urself. name me a current top ODI team which has 2 plodders in its top 3 when batting.
That’s why Kohli is the greatest batsmen of all time did it time and time again whilst chasing mammoth totals simply the Goat
Justcrazy
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Babar can never be like Kohli or Sharma , those are once-in-a-generation players. The range of shots Kohli had was great , and his chasing ability was exceptional. Players Kohli and Bevan never let the required rate up , they keep chiping at that .
Babar will remain a good batsman , but does not have it in him to get to next level . Pakistan fans need to accept this fact.
Justcrazy
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Pakistan also playing cricket for long time , why they not having such openers , are other teams preventing them ?
Also , this is not one innings , Kohli has same kind of innings again and again.
Dr_Bassim
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Misbah will die one day and our head will still be in the mud.
I bet you blame the office cleaner of 2000 for the way your office looks in 2022.
Dr_Bassim
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Or you could replace the guy who scored a century with Umar Akmal type player so we would end up 150 all out.
But hey, at least we tried with 30 off 15 balls.
And the cover drive was stupendous.
Buffet
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Or just limited ability.
Its not the stat padders. Its the type of people we are putting out there and their personalities. We need more street fighters in there who aim to win matches. Dont care what you say about him but Sarfraz bhai was one of the few rare exceptions who had this ability.
Dr_Bassim
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Why state the obvious?
Criticize Misbah first 10 years after he stopped playing in the same team as a player for the new failures.
Then blame the 2 guys who scored 150 odd out of the team score of 225.
And then walk away assuming that the team lost because of above two things.
In that order,
Mud, bury, head, sand.
Zaz
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He still doesnt get it Hes like a parrott just doesnt see the bigger picture The rr wasnt under control He let is spiral out
Hes asking new batsmen to come in and score at 8-9 an over from the off piling pressure on them because babar and imam were knocking the ball around going at 5 an over wasting deliveries
The top order needs to score quicker and get ahead of the rate
This 90s style batting didnt work today and isnt gonna work going forward
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If we were chasing a mediocre total and we'd lost a lot of wickets early on then re-building was needed. But the way they batted it was like McGrath and Warne were bowling.
In his mind, he batted perfectly. Or that he knows and is unwilling to accept mistake? Not sure what is happening. His claim that he dreamt to be number 1 batsmen in the world, how does he want to achieve that? At the cost of our team's performance in LOI while he scores 40-45-50 ball 50 in T20s and 65-70 ball 50 in ODI? This is all the while the team needs to have 9+ runs per over in T20 and 6+ in ODIs? How does this not put more pressure on other team members? Why does he not realize this yet? Taking the game to the end doesn't mean anything when you lack the scoring shots to make up for the dots played earlier in the innings. Its just whole lot of worse. I bet if Rizwan comes up the order, we would have better chances of winning matches.
James
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Travis Head obviously got off to an explosive start, but a 100 over match does not end in the first 10.
Absolutely a regrettable start for Pak, but that’s when Plan B should kick in — limit the damage as much as possible, then make sure their own powerplay in response is a) just as strong, b) even better or c) almost as good. This will then set up the rest of the run chase and at least create a possibility of winning.
120/1 off 24 overs chasing a score of 300+ goes down as a pretty miserable effort to be honest.
Even if this had been an old school ODI with 260 to chase, they might not have made it.
Absolutely a regrettable start for Pak, but that’s when Plan B should kick in — limit the damage as much as possible, then make sure their own powerplay in response is a) just as strong, b) even better or c) almost as good. This will then set up the rest of the run chase and at least create a possibility of winning.
120/1 off 24 overs chasing a score of 300+ goes down as a pretty miserable effort to be honest.
Even if this had been an old school ODI with 260 to chase, they might not have made it.
Ability to lose home test series against nzl and sri lanka and getting knocked out of group stage of world cup. And whitewash in south africa in test series.
iniqbal223
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Yes, that's what Uncle Misbah used to do; Pattern is so easy to notice
(on placid tracks where they last long enough)
first 30 balls : 10-15 runs
next 30 balls : 15-20 runs
--> Team losses here (with 5/6 down already, and more than 60% runs to score); opposition tries to experiment and see if their part timers are any good
next 20 balls : 20-30 runs
next 20 balls : 25-35 runs
--
100 balls : around 95-105 runs scored; and name enters in history books
Todays innings of both Babar and Imam made me remember the great in innings Misbah played in Mohali 2011. Accelerating strike rate at losing cause
iniqbal223
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Then add entire tenure of Babar Azam's captaincy with an exception of India T20 win
msb314
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What you are not seeing is that these two “plodders” are the best we have. Imam batted at a SR of 105 - that is more than acceptable when chasing 314.
I do agree Babar batted slowly and got out to a poor shot. However I still think that Saud, Rizwan and Iftikhar all come to bat when the RRR was under control - but they still all failed!
That is why we lost - not because of Imam’s innings.
Amjid Javed
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Saud came in the req run rate was 7.46 (imam strike rate at time was 80)
rizwan came in strike rate req was 7.86 ( imam strike rate was 87 at the time)
ifti came in strike rate req was 8.57 (imam strike rate 88 at the time)
no the run rate was not under control
so we have a so called "set batsmen scoring at less then a run a ball and the scoring rate is climbing and the new batsmen not only has to score quickly, take risks straight away because the set batsmen is in no rush to help the inns along.
Imam Did not have a strike rate above 100 until the 35th over when asking rate was 9.53 (double the score rate of pakistan at the time).
please quit with rubbish that imams inns was ideal when chasing 315.
hoshiarpurexpress
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Man I swear you are the biggest Misbah nerd out there. Every post of yours somehow links back to him.
He has retired now, time to move forward. He cannot be a messiah to save Pakistan cricket always.
hoshiarpurexpress
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The batting talent in Pakistan is embarrassingly out of touch with the modern game.
I mean Inzi and Moyo were more dynamic and could chase 300+ runs at ease on such flat wickets on their good day. Some real changes are required, starting with bulking these guys up, making them more fit to hit the long range.. It is all about smashing the ball to the farthest possible corners in modern cricket today.
Ramiz needs to invest a lot in these aspects.
I mean Inzi and Moyo were more dynamic and could chase 300+ runs at ease on such flat wickets on their good day. Some real changes are required, starting with bulking these guys up, making them more fit to hit the long range.. It is all about smashing the ball to the farthest possible corners in modern cricket today.
Ramiz needs to invest a lot in these aspects.
Usman Chadda
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No, the basic issue is we have too many accumulators in the line-up. You cannot expect Imam, Babar and Saud to go at a SR of 100+ from the get go, when they have never done that in their careers. You pick and choose players according to roles defined by the team management, not pick players based on how they want to play and where. This is the issue with the Pakistan team at the moment, besides Fakhar Zaman and Shaheen Afridi, no one has clarity to their roles in the team.
Also they are quite dumb aswell. I guess they were expecting dew to hit Australia hard and the make chase easier, when they should have realized that the old ball was getting stuck in the wicket and would not be easier to score runs off going deep into the innings.
They will lose 3-0 to this Australian side. Our ODI side is rubbish, and the lack of intent makes it even worse.
Major
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if you could comprehend what i wrote, you would understand that the issue is now having a proper head coach, Misbah was used as an example as he was the last head coach after which we dont have a proper one
realitygaf
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That can’t be right because Babar admitted the middle order is not experienced
hoshiarpurexpress
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Isn’t Saqlain appointed as head coach? Also he has relevant qualifications and coaching certificates plus experience of working with an international and domestic teams prior to this unlike Misbah.
So Misbah was not the proper one in that case.
Most of the times in a big chase like this the top 3 set the tone. You cannot have a batter scoring 57 of 72 balls and then get out. Imam's SR was caught up later in the innings when the match had already slipped from Pakistan's hands. He did hit some boundaries to catch up and then got out immediately.
The innings of Stoinis & Green cannot be compared as they were consolidating after Australia had lost 3 quick wickets. They are already an inexperienced side and if Stoinis or Green had got out at that point, Australia would have not even got to 300. That wasn't the situation with Pakistan, they knew what the target was and they should have planned better. Scoring 96 runs at less than 5 an over when you need 6+ from the start is going to put lots of pressure on the "Young" middle order (As per Babar).
The innings of Stoinis & Green cannot be compared as they were consolidating after Australia had lost 3 quick wickets. They are already an inexperienced side and if Stoinis or Green had got out at that point, Australia would have not even got to 300. That wasn't the situation with Pakistan, they knew what the target was and they should have planned better. Scoring 96 runs at less than 5 an over when you need 6+ from the start is going to put lots of pressure on the "Young" middle order (As per Babar).
Major
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Saqlain has always held specialit spin coaches position. He is never given head coach position because he is not suitable for that job. Every now and than he gets hired by ECB just for spin and thats it.
PCB hired him just for the sake of it. He is friends with Rameez, he is there as a spin coach and made head just for the sake of it.
If you watch his coashing vids, all he does is play around with babar azam and do challlenges with him.
He is not a proper head coach and you missed the point I was making in my first post of the thread
hoshiarpurexpress
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Do you think a coach will make a difference at international level if the domestic talent pipeline is poor. I agree with Saqlain being mostly a spin bowling expert, but he has been around better coaching setups internationally so ideally should be doing better.
The core of the issue, I think is the power game requirements in LOI cricket are not well understood at domestic and junior levels for Pakistan cricket.This is were Ramiz needs to really step in.
320 was a par score on this flat wicket.
hoshiarpurexpress
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Also Poor game awareness by majority of Pakistan batters. When RR is 6.2+ you try to hover around at least 6 in the beginning overs with the new ball, run hard between the wickets etc.
Major
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How is the talent poor?
Domestic cricket is not even an issue here.
You are just making me repeat my self what i have already state in post no.6 and post no.30
Coaches exists for a reason. If they were useless in cricket, than Australian, English boards wouldnt have big set ups. Head coach's role and the batting, bowling, fielding coaches role are different. The head coach not only handles the others coaches but he is the one who along with the captain come up with a strategy how to approach a game.
This is why I mentioned Misbah, that while Misbah was head coach, we also had a separate batting coach Because the head coach job becomes tad different.
Pakistan's issue in this series overall was that Babar doesnt have the think thank group upon who he can bounce of ideas. The test series we bottled, we bottled because of this. Had a coach discussed a strategy we could had won.
In this odi series, again the problem isn't the talent, its that there isnt a head coach with whom a strategy can be discussed and than be implemented in the middle.
This thread seems over crtical of pakistani batters, RRR was just above 6.2 and they were batting above 5 RR. When Babar Got out the equation was hardly out of control with 7 RRR in 26 overs. The middle order simply collapsed.
You cant expect top order to be going at 7 RPO right from start when the RR is just above 6.
Mainul
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Imam played a decent innings,got century more than run a ball. But Babar Azam's innings in the context of the match was a crime as he was the captain of the team. As you said in other thread his intentions seemed to me like getting a 50 plus innings to boost his average and letting the pressure build on the upcoming batsmen.
Babar needs to work on his game seriously. He is a good batsman no doubt but his game doesn't suit modern limited overs high scoring matches, especially when he chases a big total. He along with other Pakistanis needs to learn, work hard to be able to rotate the strike . Otherwise they will never be a top tier limited overs team. They are number 11 now in ICC super league table.
50 dot balls was awful.
They scored at 4.88 runs per over.
When Babar was out, the rrr was up to 7.50.
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I think it is more about insecurity than stat padding. Even established players are not sure of their place in the side long term. So they try to make sure their stat line is good even if it means wasting balls and hurting the team.
Management has to assure players they are in a aggressive players and they not be judged if they get out early trying to hit big.
Management has to assure players they are in a aggressive players and they not be judged if they get out early trying to hit big.
Zaz
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Both players seem to play to consolidate n then catch up later
Im sure babar if he continued wouldve got a 100 ball 100 like imam but this strategy is full of risk as you could (like babar did) not go on and by then youve wasted deliveries and are behind the 8 ball
A much better strategy is to keep up with the run rate from the off
Im sure babar if he continued wouldve got a 100 ball 100 like imam but this strategy is full of risk as you could (like babar did) not go on and by then youve wasted deliveries and are behind the 8 ball
A much better strategy is to keep up with the run rate from the off
Cricfan4eva
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Yeah chasing 300, 100/1 in 20 overs is not a bad start. You're looking at it wrongly imo.
Ahmed216
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100/1 was an awful score considering Aus were 150 at the same stage and they ended up with 310 with all their batsmen still playing. Pitch was slow and best time to bat was during first 25-30 and Pak should have taken a leaf out of Australia's book on how to bat in such conditions. it was really embarassing to see aussies reading the game and conditions better than us in our backyard.
Rob Key was spot on during commentary.
He said that you cannot have 2 batters playing the sort of innings that Babar and Imam did when you are chasing the sort of total Pakistan was chasing during the 1st ODI.
He also said that one of them should have attacked and been a lot more positive, instead both just continued to bat the way they did despite the rrr increasing.
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