Is there a case for the Jammu & Kashmir situation to be termed as a genocide in the legal sense?

[Artless Dodges]

Many Indian are quick to bring up how it's islamic extremism that is at the cause of the conflict in Kashmir. They make it a point to bring up the plight of Kashmiri pandit's in delegitimizing the Kashmiri people's aspiration. Some going as far as to say that the populace today deserve what's coming to them in return for what the Pandit's had to go through. But what you will never hear from these Indians is that the first case communalism and religious extremism in Kashmir conflict wasn't at the hands of Muslims but rather extremist Hindus and Sikhs; and the first and largest ethnic cleansing in Kashmir was that of Muslims in Jammu. 70,000-100,000 Muslims were killed at the behest of RSS goons and a 100,000-200,000 were forcibly displaced from their homelands.

My purpose in creating this thread isn't to say that Islamic extremism hasn't played a part in the modern Kashmir conflict (It definitely has but to what extent is debatable and not the purpose of the thread). More importantly, i am not trying to downplay what the Kashmiri Pandits had to go through or create a **** measuring contest over people's suffering. What happened to the Kashmiri Pandits is deplorable and they deserve to live in peace and as equals in their own homeland. Having said that, the blind hypocrisy and duplicity of some Indians is palpable when they are quick to bring up Pandits for point scoring to showcase their faux moral outrage and pit the Kashmiris and their struggle as immoral and illegitimate. If the death of 1,000 innocent Kashmiri Pandit matters, then surely the death of 100,000 innocent Kashmiri Muslims also matters?

Relevant section of the Wikipedia article for those unaware:

Massacres

By the end of September, Muslims were surrounded in Jammu city and in the villages, and were told by civil and military officials to leave to Pakistan. Starting from the first week of October, Muslim population was attacked in Jammu plains and the surrounding hills. On 14 October, the RSS activists and the Akalis attacked various villages of Jammu district—Amrey, Cheak, Atmapur and Kochpura—and after killing some Muslims, looted their possessions and set their houses on fire.[14] There was mass killing of Muslims in and around Jammu city. The state troops led the attacks. The state officials provided arms and ammunition to the rioters. The administration had demobilised a large number of Muslim soldiers in the state army and had discharged Muslim police officers.[15][a] Most of the Muslims outside the Muslim dominated areas were killed by the communal rioters who moved in vehicles with arms and ammunition, though the city was officially put under curfew. Many number of Gujjar men and women who used to supply milk to the city from the surrounding villages were reportedly massacred en route. It is said that the Ramnagar reserve in Jammu was littered with the dead bodies of Gujjar men, women and children. In the Muslim localities of Jammu city, Talab Khatikan and Mohalla Ustad, Muslims were surrounded and were denied water supply and food. The Muslims in Talab Khatikan area had joined to defend themselves with the arms they could gather, who later received support from the Muslim Conference. They were eventually asked to surrender and the administration asked them to go to Pakistan for their safety. These Muslims and others who wanted to go to Sialkot, in thousands, were loaded in numerous trucks and were escorted by the troops in the first week of November. When they reached the outskirts of the city, they were pulled out and killed by armed Sikhs and RSS men, while abducting the women.[7][14][16]

There were also reports of large-scale massacres of Muslims in Udhampur district, particularly in proper Udhampur, Chenani, Ramnagar, Bhaderwah and Reasi areas. Killing of a large number of Muslims was reported from Chhamb, Deva Batala, Manawsar and other parts of Akhnoor with many people fleeing to Pakistan or moving to Jammu. In Kathua district and Bilawar area, there was extensive killing of Muslims with women being raped and abducted.[7][18]

On November 16, 1947, Sheikh Abdullah arrived in Jammu and a refugee camp was set up in Mohalla Ustad.[7]

Observations
"To recall those days of communal orgy my only objective is to point out that a communalist and killer has no religion. It was the humanity that was the victim of communal fanatics... we should better learn appropriate lessons from history and not allow the communal fanatics of one or the other community to vitiate the atmosphere and disturb communal peace and harmony."

— Ved Bhasin, who witnessed the Jammu violence in 1947.[7]

Mahatma Gandhi commented on the situation in Jammu on 25 December 1947 in his speech at a prayer meeting in New Delhi: "The Hindus and Sikhs of Jammu and those who had gone there from outside killed Muslims. The Maharaja of Kashmir is responsible for what is happening there…A large number of Muslims have been killed there and Muslim women have been dishonoured."[19]

According to Ved Bhasin and scholar Ilyas Chattha, the Jammu riots were executed by members of the Rashtriya Swayamsevak Sangh (RSS) who were joined by the refugees from West Pakistan, and were supported strongly by Hari Singh and his administration with a main aim to change the demographic composition of Jammu region and ensure a non-Muslim majority. Bhasin states, the riots were "clearly" planned by the activists of RSS.[7][20] Observers have noted that the Akali Sikhs and some former members of the Indian National Army (INA) also participated in this violence along with the RSS and state forces.[21][22][23][24]

Bhasin says that the massacres took place in the presence of the then Jammu and Kashmir's Prime Minister Mehr Chand Mahajan and the governor of Jammu, Lala Chet Ram Chopra, and that some of those who led these riots in Udhampur and Bhaderwah later joined the National Conference with some of them also serving as ministers.[7][c]

Estimates of people killed and displaced

An early official calculation made in Pakistan, using headcount data, estimated 50,000 Muslims killed.[25] A team of two Englishmen jointly commissioned by the governments of India and Pakistan investigated seven major incidents of violence between 20 October – 9 November 1947, estimating 70,000 deaths.[26] Scholar Ian Copland estimated total deaths to be around 80,000,[27] while Ved Bhasin estimated them to be around 100,000.[18] Scholar Christopher Snedden says, the number of Muslims killed were between 20,000 and 100,000.[1] Justice Yusuf Saraf estimates them to be between 20,000 and 30,000.[28]

Much higher figures were reported by newspapers at that time. A report by a special correspondent of The Times, published on 10 August 1948, stated that a total of 237,000 Muslims were either killed or migrated to Pakistan.[6][d] The editor of The Statesman Ian Stephens claimed that 500,000 Muslims, "the entire Muslim element of the population", was eliminated and 200,000 "just disappeared".[31] Scholar Ian Copland finds these figures dubious.[e]

As a result of the killings, Ilyas Chattha says, more than 100,000 Jammu refugees had arrived in Sialkot in Pakistan.[32] Snedden, on the other hand, cites a "comprehensive report" in Dawn published in January 1951, which said that 200,000 Muslims went as refugees to Pakistan in October–November 1947.[3] An unidentified organisation in Pakistan counted refugees from Jammu and Kashmir during May–July 1949, and found 333,964 refugees from the Indian-held parts of the state.[33]

Note that the 100,000 to 200,000 Jammu refugees didn't move to Pakistan on their own accord but rather due to state-sponsored ethnic cleansing. They also weren't part of the the provinces that were divided along religious lines thus in an ideal world they too should have an opportunity to return to their homes.

Having said all that, I realize full well that there is little to no chance that India will let go of Kashmir or that Kashmiri people will be able to attain independence (if they so choose). That is the practical reality but it doesn't mean that people can start creating B.S reasons to make themselves feel better. If nothing else, understanding this conflict from the opposing POV, can only help better guide India's own actions. I'm sure India can continue to station 700,000 troops for the next 50 years but it would be much more preferable not to do so. If there is to be any kind of lasting resolution, even at one's own accord, it would require a much more nuanced understanding of the real (or perceived) grievances of the Kashmiri people. Preferably one that doesn't involve justifying gunning down kids for throwing stone; which by the way will only antagonize the population, incite more violence that will require greater government resources and funding to quell; money that could have been better spent on a host of other things.

 

[KingKhanWC]

Good post but you're banging your head against a brick wall if you think Indians will accept this.

Most dont believe their army has done anything wrong and there are others who rejoice when their army oppresses Kashmiris'.

Because of this I have no respect for these type of people.

 

[Pakpak]

I'm looking online some horrible images from Kashmir. There is a school where students were hiding as soldiers were trying to storm it and shelling it with tear gas.

Disgusting.

 

[Artless Dodges]

Good post but you're banging your head against a brick wall if you think Indians will accept this.

Most dont believe their army has done anything wrong and there are others who rejoice when their army oppresses Kashmiris'.

Because of this I have no respect for these type of people.

Which I don't understand at all....Setting aside morality, it is politically and economically more prudent to focus on what the military is doing wrong and try to fix it instead of burying one's head in the sand.

I saw some guys response to kids throwing stones was to say that they're terrorist and they deserve it.
If i was an Indian and even if I believed that the kid is wrong, and even if I believed that killing the kid was justifiable, I would still try to do my utmost and take drastic measures to make sure that I avoid killing or injuring the kid because it is against my national interest. However, it seems like some Indians don't even want to think along those lines and are happy to cut their nose to spite their face. Even more than immorality, I despise their stupidity (which I probably shouldn't)

 

[KingKhanWC]

Which I don't understand at all....Setting aside morality, it is politically and economically more prudent to focus on what the military is doing wrong and try to fix it instead of burying one's head in the sand.

I saw some guys response to kids throwing stones was to say that they're terrorist and they deserve it.
If i was an Indian and even if I believed that the kid is wrong, and even if I believed that killing the kid was justifiable, I would still try to do my utmost and take drastic measures to make sure that I avoid killing or injuring the kid because it is against my national interest. However, it seems like some Indians don't even want to think along those lines and are happy to cut their nose to spite their face. Even more than immorality, I despise their stupidity (which I probably shouldn't)

They dont understand standing up to your government whey they are doing wrong is not unpatriotic. Indians feel if they criticise their nation they are traitors, even their famous cricketers have restored to being apologists for human rights abuses.

Most normal people understand true patriotism and democracy is when you protest your government if they are involved with such abuses. In the UK 1Million marched against the Iraq war for this reason.

I think one of the psychological issues with Indians is they have a complex due to their history. Muslims came rule, British came and ruled while India has never been a global superpower.

 

[cricketjoshila]

They dont understand standing up to your government whey they are doing wrong is not unpatriotic. Indians feel if they criticise their nation they are traitors, even their famous cricketers have restored to being apologists for human rights abuses.

Most normal people understand true patriotism and democracy is when you protest your government if they are involved with such abuses. In the UK 1Million marched against the Iraq war for this reason.

I think one of the psychological issues with Indians is they have a complex due to their history. Muslims came rule, British came and ruled while India has never been a global superpower.

Muslims came and conquered and ruled Pakistanis first. British too ruled them. Present day Pakistan was never a global super power.

What is true about Indian history is true about Pakistani history till 1947. So may be you have such a complex. Indians certainly dont.

They just dont believe the Pakistani narrative on Kashmir.

Neither do they care about what happened in UK.

Amazing that a brit pakistani claims to know what Indians think.

 

[KingKhanWC]

Muslims came and conquered and ruled Pakistanis first. British too ruled them. Present day Pakistan was never a global super power.

What is true about Indian history is true about Pakistani history till 1947. So may be you have such a complex. Indians certainly dont.

They just dont believe the Pakistani narrative on Kashmir.

Neither do they care about what happened in UK.

Amazing that a brit pakistani claims to know what Indians think.

Pakistan is a Muslim nation and therefore isn't hung up about history unlike the Hindutva followers in India.

I know what Indians think because you and other Indians on here have made it very clear.

To this day you have never condemned a single act of human rights abuses in Kashmir by the Indian armed forces.

 

[Artless Dodges]

Muslims came and conquered and ruled Pakistanis first. British too ruled them. Present day Pakistan was never a global super power.

What is true about Indian history is true about Pakistani history till 1947. So may be you have such a complex. Indians certainly dont.

They just dont believe the Pakistani narrative on Kashmir.

Neither do they care about what happened in UK.

Amazing that a brit pakistani claims to know what Indians think.

I don't want to devolve the thread and make it about India Pakistan. If i recall, in one of our previous conversations a while back, you were one of the posters that said India will control Kashmir because it benefits us politically ...END OF. And I appreciate that sentiment because it is honest and I would hold the same opinion if I was a patriotic Indian. More importantly, nations don't make decisions based on morality but national interest. Unless it's serious war crimes, genocide, other grave things where I would at least hope that morality plays a part (Pakistan killing its Hindu populace or India deciding its easier to just eliminate Kashmiris). Disregarding Pakistan (hypothetically lets say Pakistan is a bad actor), would you say India's policy vis a vis Kashmiri people is very lacking to put it generously? Also:

- Do you agree/disagree that the presence of a large military presence throughout Kashmir is contributing to the feeling of animosity amongst the populace perhaps more than anything else?

-Do you blame Islam for what is happening in Kashmir?

- Why care if the Kashmiri people are pro-pak or pro-independence? Let them say and do what they want or fly whichever flag they want as long as violence isn't being committed. Being such a small territory, it's not like it will have any negative consequence for India except damaging some people's ego. Let the people protest their hearts out and give the province autonomy, that way Kashmiris bureaucrats themselves will have to deal with law and order effect of shutdowns or protests and eventually people will tire and want normalcy. For the most part Kashmiris will rule themselves and be accountable for their economy, policy etc, while the Indian Military could solely focus on the border and counter terrorism with a focus on having as small a footprint as possible.

 

[Pakistanian]

It is genocide.

 

[cricketjoshila]

Pakistan is a Muslim nation and therefore isn't hung up about history unlike the Hindutva followers in India.

I know what Indians think because you and other Indians on here have made it very clear.

To this day you have never condemned a single act of human rights abuses in Kashmir by the Indian armed forces.

Pakistani is a muslim nation.So? Does it negate the fact that it was conquered by muslims? Just because people there converted to the religion of the conquerors they are no more the vanquished? Lol. Thats some weird logic
[MENTION=134300]Tusker[/MENTION]
[MENTION=142162]Napa[/MENTION]
[MENTION=136571]akki[/MENTION]
[MENTION=142736]English August[/MENTION]

You have no inkling of what Indians think.

Why should i do anything that you want me to do?

 

[cricketjoshila]

I don't want to devolve the thread and make it about India Pakistan. If i recall, in one of our previous conversations a while back, you were one of the posters that said India will control Kashmir because it benefits us politically ...END OF. And I appreciate that sentiment because it is honest and I would hold the same opinion if I was a patriotic Indian. More importantly, nations don't make decisions based on morality but national interest. Unless it's serious war crimes, genocide, other grave things where I would at least hope that morality plays a part (Pakistan killing its Hindu populace or India deciding its easier to just eliminate Kashmiris). Disregarding Pakistan (hypothetically lets say Pakistan is a bad actor), would you say India's policy vis a vis Kashmiri people is very lacking to put it generously? Also:

- Do you agree/disagree that the presence of a large military presence throughout Kashmir is contributing to the feeling of animosity amongst the populace perhaps more than anything else?

-Do you blame Islam for what is happening in Kashmir?

- Why care if the Kashmiri people are pro-pak or pro-independence? Let them say and do what they want or fly whichever flag they want as long as violence isn't being committed. Being such a small territory, it's not like it will have any negative consequence for India except damaging some people's ego. Let the people protest their hearts out and give the province autonomy, that way Kashmiris bureaucrats themselves will have to deal with law and order effect of shutdowns or protests and eventually people will tire and want normalcy. For the most part Kashmiris will rule themselves and be accountable for their economy, policy etc, while the Indian Military could solely focus on the border and counter terrorism with a focus on having as small a footprint as possible.

I have said what i wanted to say about Kashmir to [MENTION=142702]UN talkz[/MENTION] . I am pretty sure he understands where i am coming from.

 

[Lonewarrior]

Pakistani is a muslim nation.So? Does it negate the fact that it was conquered by muslims? Just because people there converted to the religion of the conquerors they are no more the vanquished? Lol. Thats some weird logic

[MENTION=134300]Tusker[/MENTION]
[MENTION=142162]Napa[/MENTION]
[MENTION=136571]akki[/MENTION]
[MENTION=142736]English August[/MENTION]

You have no inkling of what Indians think.

Why should i do anything that you want me to do?

whats the point of taging others ? why dont you give a simple reply to the questions of Artless Dodges ?
i can tag others too.
[MENTION=138254]Syed1[/MENTION] [MENTION=138463]Slog[/MENTION] [MENTION=142451]Mian[/MENTION] [MENTION=49505]sshakir411[/MENTION] [MENTION=137870]www787[/MENTION] [MENTION=146465]R3verse Swing[/MENTION] [MENTION=143252]Poutine[/MENTION] [MENTION=4930]Yossarian[/MENTION]

 

[Artless Dodges]

Pakistani is a muslim nation.So? Does it negate the fact that it was conquered by muslims? Just because people there converted to the religion of the conquerors they are no more the vanquished? Lol. Thats some weird logic

[MENTION=134300]Tusker[/MENTION]
[MENTION=142162]Napa[/MENTION]
[MENTION=136571]akki[/MENTION]
[MENTION=142736]English August[/MENTION]

You have no inkling of what Indians think.

Why should i do anything that you want me to do?

You shouldn't condemn Kashmiri atrocities because some Pakistani told you but rather because it is the moral thing to do, and also because it will help India if more people did condemn these atrocities. I don't personally know you so maybe you do condemn them, maybe just not on a Pakistani forum. But it is obvious that many of your country lack even basic comprehension on why Kashmiris dislike India except the the trite response related to big bad islamic extremism or justifying everything due to what happened to Pandits. The saddest thing is that 700,000 soldiers and millions of dollars invested but Pandits still can't be resettled but the Army still has enough time to commit systemic murder, disappearances, sexual harassment and rape of locals (independent sources exist for all the above).

I have said what i wanted to say about Kashmir to @UN talkz . I am pretty sure he understands where i am coming from.

While its good that you support autonomy, by saying that terrorist groups have to lay down their arms first, in essence you're basically holding the entire valley hostage to extremists. Even if the vast majority of the populace wants peace, there will always be disgruntled, "misguided" or even outright terroristic parties that will violently oppose peace. There's too much blood spilled in Kashmir for there to be outright peace in the near term. The only way Kashmir can integrate with India is if the State itself shows strategic displays of goodwill to the populace and is patient with the peace process. The vast majority of the oppression, murder, rape was committed by the State and its affiliates so it only makes sense if they are ones to take the first concrete steps towards peace.

Lest I was not clear before, almost every Indian poster including you is very quick to point out how tourist and hindus have been killed by Islamic extremists, but it wasn't Hizb that killed 100,000 kashmiri muslims. RSS killed, raped, and forced so many Muslims out of Kashmir that the entire division of Jammu went from muslim majority to a Hindu majority. Any damage that Islamic terrorism caused to Kashmir pales in comparison in the sheer scale of what happened in Jammu decades before there was any insurgency.

Even Burhan Wani's successor, a known terrorist, offers lip-service to Pandits https://www.hindustantimes.com/indi...ures-safety/story-Qhej9xMOJbjf8BSpizA49K.html but regular Indians can't see through their jingoism and admit their own countries fault in creating this mess. But its fine, everybody loses the longer this persists and the only party that may slightly come out ahead is Pakistan.

 

[Romali_rotti]

Indians and Pakistanis are lost causes when arguing with each other, bunch of 2 year olds just crying over who is moral and immoral, when both are equally PATHETIC!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Madplayer]

It is a state sponsored genocide.

 

[R3verse Swing]

JK genocide? It's bigger than that, there's state sponsored genocide throughout India! Ethnic minorities and lower castes - slowly and systematically wiped out in India.

JK is the tip of the iceberg - pun fully intended!

 

[PakLFC]

Of course it is genocide for sure. There is no organisation worth it's salt who will do anything. Might is right, Pak should do whatever it takes and buy as many weapons as possible. Even shaking hands with North Korea and Iran does not bother me. The likes of India, USA and Israel are in no position no condemn terrorism. The UN and OIC are useless as each other.

 

[BlackShadow]

Of course it is genocide for sure. There is no organisation worth it's salt who will do anything. Might is right, Pak should do whatever it takes and buy as many weapons as possible. Even shaking hands with North Korea and Iran does not bother me. The likes of India, USA and Israel are in no position no condemn terrorism. The UN and OIC are useless as each other.

Quite rich coming from a country that murdered millions in East Pakistan. Even today, you are butchering Baloch people in thousands while crying about a dozen terrorists killed in Kashmir.

Indian army is doing it's job and terrorism in Kashmir will be taken down. There is nothing Pakistan, North Korea or Iran can do about it.

 

[PakLFC]

Quite rich coming from a country that murdered millions in East Pakistan. Even today, you are butchering Baloch people in thousands while crying about a dozen terrorists killed in Kashmir.

Indian army is doing it's job and terrorism in Kashmir will be taken down. There is nothing Pakistan, North Korea or Iran can do about it.

The East Pakistan rubbish has been refuted many times. The Baloch people are not being killed at all, these "thousands" people only exist in your mind. You are just trying to cover your genocide of Sikh's in 1984, Dilits and Kashmiris today. Balochistan is at peace now after we killed all your proxies neither did they ever carry your flag like Kashmiris do. Pakistan does not need to do anything in IoK where your terrorist soldiers are also being killed openly.

 

[Artless Dodges]

Indians and Pakistanis are lost causes when arguing with each other, bunch of 2 year olds just crying over who is moral and immoral, when both are equally PATHETIC!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Just because getting shot or getting blood cancer might be equally terrifying doesn't mean there's no value in exploring the difference between the two. If you don't have anything to contribute, don't post

 

[BlackShadow]

The East Pakistan rubbish has been refuted many times. The Baloch people are not being killed at all, these "thousands" people only exist in your mind. You are just trying to cover your genocide of Sikh's in 1984, Dilits and Kashmiris today. Balochistan is at peace now after we killed all your proxies neither did they ever carry your flag like Kashmiris do. Pakistan does not need to do anything in IoK where your terrorist soldiers are also being killed openly.

East Pakistan rubbish has been refuted? Only in a brainwashed Pakistani's mind.

Baloch people being killed in thousands exists only in my mind? Wonder why international media reports thousands of dumped bodies of activists and separatists being recovered.
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-38454483

These blatant lies and double standards are the reason no one takes you seriously outside of Pakistan. Yes there will be a dozen Pakistanis to quote and support your lies here, but that counts for nothing in places that matter.

 

[Wasim_Waqar]

It’s a genocide of the Kashmiri people by the Indian state.

 

[BlackShadow]

There's literally an active thread on Balochistan to discuss any/all atrocities committed there. You can also open one on Bengaldesh and Ill be the first one to post but must you hijack a thread on the atrocities committed in Kashmir, chiefly the state-sponsored genocide in Jammu, with your trite nonsense?

Indian army will do all it takes to fight for it's territory. Those who take up arms will be brought down. If you want to call it a genocide, so be it. Oh and I will bring up Balochistan so that the definition of a "genocide" stays consistent here. You can't cry about something calling it a genocide when you support your army doing worse to your own people.

 

[Artless Dodges]

Indian army will do all it takes to fight for it's territory. Those who take up arms will be brought down. If you want to call it a genocide, so be it. Oh and I will bring up Balochistan so that the definition of a "genocide" stays consistent here. You can't cry about something calling it a genocide when you support your army doing worse to your own people.

Nobody brought up arms in Jammu and 100,000 people were killed 1947 before there was ever an insurgency or conflict by RSS goons and countless women were separated from their families and raped.

In the history of balochistan, never has that ever been done. What happened in Bangladesh might qualify but you continue to derail the thread and I would please request that the mods take note.

I feel like I'm banging my head against the wall. The whole thread has nothing to do with Pakistani. Despite my staunch opposition to Indian occupation of Kashmir, I created this thread to discuss potential steps that the Indian State can take to ensure that Kashmir becomes peaceful and stays with India.

Historians can admit that there were legitimate grievances that led to the rise of even Nazi friggin Germany but you can't admit that India might be doing something wrong in Kashmir or steps that can taken to fix and bring peace

 

[BlackShadow]

Nobody brought up arms in Jammu and 100,000 people were killed 1947 before there was ever an insurgency or conflict by RSS goons and countless women were separated from their families and raped.

In the history of balochistan, never has that ever been done. What happened in Bangladesh might qualify but you continue to derail the thread and I would please request that the mods take note.

I feel like I'm banging my head against the wall. The whole thread has nothing to do with Pakistani. Despite my staunch opposition to Indian occupation of Kashmir, I created this thread to discuss potential steps that the Indian State can take to ensure that Kashmir becomes peaceful and stays with India.

Historians can admit that there were legitimate grievances that led to the rise of even Nazi friggin Germany but you can't admit that India might be doing something wrong in Kashmir or steps that can taken to fix and bring peace

Jammu Massacre happened to be one of many post-partition riots. You mention the number of Muslims killed, but why don't you mention the number of Hindus and Sikhs who lost their lives? Nor do you mention the massacre of Hindus and Sikhs by Muslims in West Punjab, an even that preceded Jammu massacre.



You are trying to arrive at a conclusion by being very selective about the facts you present. That is nonsense. Coming to present, Indian army's actions in Kashmir are no different to what Pakistan is doing in Balochistan. No country today will let go of it's territory and any armed rebellion will be crushed. That's the bottomline.

 

[Artless Dodges]

Jammu Massacre happened to be one of many post-partition riots. You mention the number of Muslims killed, but why don't you mention the number of Hindus and Sikhs who lost their lives? Nor do you mention the massacre of Hindus and Sikhs by Muslims in West Punjab, an even that preceded Jammu massacre.

View attachment 80675

You are trying to arrive at a conclusion by being very selective about the facts you present. That is nonsense. Coming to present, Indian army's actions in Kashmir are no different to what Pakistan is doing in Balochistan. No country today will let go of it's territory and any armed rebellion will be crushed. That's the bottomline.

The 200,000 number is inaccurate as it was Hari Singhs forces that committed the massacres. Here is an article in scroll.in highlighting the entire affair https://scroll.in/article/811468/the-killing-fields-of-jammu-when-it-was-muslims-who-were-eliminated

And also the wikipedia article: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1947_Jammu_massacres

80,000-100,000 Muslims were killed first and then 20,000 Hindus were killed in response in districts that became Azad Kashmir.

 

[Asif khan]

Indians and Pakistanis are lost causes when arguing with each other, bunch of 2 year olds just crying over who is moral and immoral, when both are equally PATHETIC!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Hmm well this is a Pakistani cricket forum. Maybe, if Indians stuck to their own we wouldn't have these 'pathetic' arguments.

 

[Rishta Aunty]

Asked my friend who's doing her PhD in Conflict Studies this exact question sometime ago, and she feels that it would be legally difficult to establish. That's just a factor in any war that is considering to be 'dirty', where there are both state/non-state actors involved, but especially when you have a secondary sovereign force that in the past has supported non-state actors.


The issue is with being able to establish beyond reasonable doubt, a set of actions purely guided by hatred of a certain ethnic group/religion to exterminate them. Despite the hundreds of atrocities the Indian state has carried out in Kashmir, that would be difficult to establish considering the ground situation and our not-so-great role in solving it.The thing is that contrary to what stupid Indian right-wingers believe, it's the article 370 that's been preventing their occupation from being declared a genocide or worse. By law, violation on constitutional rights (Kashmir) is seen as worse than an absence of it (Palestine/Syria).

In fact, I'd argue that a lot of interventions from our Pakistani side have diluted our ability to push the Indian genocide version in world capitals; still feel that Kargil was a horrendous mistake simply because of this. We just don't our side of the story heard anymore which what hurts the most.

 

[Tusker]

Is this an attempt to find out who fired the first shots in the Centuries old Hindu-Muslim violence ? If so do you realize that you have omitted about 1000 yrs of history prior to the event that you are trying to highlight here ?

If not then please let me know why you picked 1947.

Many Indian are quick to bring up how it's islamic extremism that is at the cause of the conflict in Kashmir. They make it a point to bring up the plight of Kashmiri pandit's in delegitimizing the Kashmiri people's aspiration. Some going as far as to say that the populace today deserve what's coming to them in return for what the Pandit's had to go through. But what you will never hear from these Indians is that the first case communalism and religious extremism in Kashmir conflict wasn't at the hands of Muslims but rather extremist Hindus and Sikhs; and the first and largest ethnic cleansing in Kashmir was that of Muslims in Jammu. 70,000-100,000 Muslims were killed at the behest of RSS goons and a 100,000-200,000 were forcibly displaced from their homelands.

My purpose in creating this thread isn't to say that Islamic extremism hasn't played a part in the modern Kashmir conflict (It definitely has but to what extent is debatable and not the purpose of the thread). More importantly, i am not trying to downplay what the Kashmiri Pandits had to go through or create a **** measuring contest over people's suffering. What happened to the Kashmiri Pandits is deplorable and they deserve to live in peace and as equals in their own homeland. Having said that, the blind hypocrisy and duplicity of some Indians is palpable when they are quick to bring up Pandits for point scoring to showcase their faux moral outrage and pit the Kashmiris and their struggle as immoral and illegitimate. If the death of 1,000 innocent Kashmiri Pandit matters, then surely the death of 100,000 innocent Kashmiri Muslims also matters?

Relevant section of the Wikipedia article for those unaware:







Note that the 100,000 to 200,000 Jammu refugees didn't move to Pakistan on their own accord but rather due to state-sponsored ethnic cleansing. They also weren't part of the the provinces that were divided along religious lines thus in an ideal world they too should have an opportunity to return to their homes.

Having said all that, I realize full well that there is little to no chance that India will let go of Kashmir or that Kashmiri people will be able to attain independence (if they so choose). That is the practical reality but it doesn't mean that people can start creating B.S reasons to make themselves feel better. If nothing else, understanding this conflict from the opposing POV, can only help better guide India's own actions. I'm sure India can continue to station 700,000 troops for the next 50 years but it would be much more preferable not to do so. If there is to be any kind of lasting resolution, even at one's own accord, it would require a much more nuanced understanding of the real (or perceived) grievances of the Kashmiri people. Preferably one that doesn't involve justifying gunning down kids for throwing stone; which by the way will only antagonize the population, incite more violence that will require greater government resources and funding to quell; money that could have been better spent on a host of other things.

 

[Napa]

Many Indian are quick to bring up how it's islamic extremism that is at the cause of the conflict in Kashmir. They make it a point to bring up the plight of Kashmiri pandit's in delegitimizing the Kashmiri people's aspiration. Some going as far as to say that the populace today deserve what's coming to them in return for what the Pandit's had to go through. But what you will never hear from these Indians is that the first case communalism and religious extremism in Kashmir conflict wasn't at the hands of Muslims but rather extremist Hindus and Sikhs; and the first and largest ethnic cleansing in Kashmir was that of Muslims in Jammu. 70,000-100,000 Muslims were killed at the behest of RSS goons and a 100,000-200,000 were forcibly displaced from their homelands.

My purpose in creating this thread isn't to say that Islamic extremism hasn't played a part in the modern Kashmir conflict (It definitely has but to what extent is debatable and not the purpose of the thread). More importantly, i am not trying to downplay what the Kashmiri Pandits had to go through or create a **** measuring contest over people's suffering. What happened to the Kashmiri Pandits is deplorable and they deserve to live in peace and as equals in their own homeland. Having said that, the blind hypocrisy and duplicity of some Indians is palpable when they are quick to bring up Pandits for point scoring to showcase their faux moral outrage and pit the Kashmiris and their struggle as immoral and illegitimate. If the death of 1,000 innocent Kashmiri Pandit matters, then surely the death of 100,000 innocent Kashmiri Muslims also matters?

Relevant section of the Wikipedia article for those unaware:

Note that the 100,000 to 200,000 Jammu refugees didn't move to Pakistan on their own accord but rather due to state-sponsored ethnic cleansing. They also weren't part of the the provinces that were divided along religious lines thus in an ideal world they too should have an opportunity to return to their homes.

As [MENTION=134300]Tusker[/MENTION] noted, you are trying to be too smart looking at what happened in Jammu in isolation to what was happening in the rest of the subcontinent during partition.

As for "legal sense", you obviously need to first specify the legal system. Any legal system also needs the power to enforce its rulings. Otherwise it is just opinions of people calling themselves "judges". Which particular legal system did you have in mind when you asked your question?

The fact that the percentage of Hindus in Pakistan since Partition has fallen while it has risen in India points to the lot of Muslims in India being better.
[MENTION=76058]cricketjoshila[/MENTION]

 

[Napa]

As [MENTION=134300]Tusker[/MENTION] noted, you are trying to be too smart looking at what happened in Jammu in isolation to what was happening in the rest of the subcontinent during partition.

As for "legal sense", you obviously need to first specify the legal system. Any legal system also needs the power to enforce its rulings. Otherwise it is just opinions of people calling themselves "judges". Which particular legal system did you have in mind when you asked your question?

The fact that the percentage of Hindus in Pakistan since Partition has fallen while it has risen in India points to the lot of Muslims in India being better.
[MENTION=76058]cricketjoshila[/MENTION]

*The fact that the percentage of Hindus in Pakistan since Partition has fallen while the percentage of Muslims in India has risen points to the lot of Muslims in India being better.

 

[PakLFC]

East Pakistan rubbish has been refuted? Only in a brainwashed Pakistani's mind.

Baloch people being killed in thousands exists only in my mind? Wonder why international media reports thousands of dumped bodies of activists and separatists being recovered.
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-38454483

These blatant lies and double standards are the reason no one takes you seriously outside of Pakistan. Yes there will be a dozen Pakistanis to quote and support your lies here, but that counts for nothing in places that matter.

No such things happened in East Pakistan like you people believe. It has been refuted in books like "Blood and Tears" if you care to read it. Thousands of people have not been killed in Baluchistan, you are confused between Baluchistan and IoK where all the murders and rapes are taking place by your genocidal army. I can give you thousands of links to Indian army atrocities in IoK, Chattisgarh and the red corridor and you know that. It will take you an entire lifetime to read them Of course you can not deny all the insurgencies in India no matter how hard you try to deflect the attention on Pakistan for the cruelty your army if we can call it that is responsible for Baluch people love Pakistan, it is those on IoK that want to merge with Pakistan and you know it yet pretend to be ignorant. I have always known that your people are liars and cheats, you are just proving for it to be so very true.