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Is Younis Khan an all-time great in Test cricket?

Not an ATG but at the same level to Smith/ Hayden/ KP.At par with Cook/ Sehwag though.

His weakness against pace means he wasn't good enough to be called an ATG.

Being a poor odi player doesn't help either.
 
You can't count on Younis to play high quality fast bowling in pacer friendly conditions.

I personally don't think think that he is an ATG but a decent case can be made to back up other opinion.
 
Younis is not in the same league as Miandad or Inzi or Yousaf aa an impact player.

Stats may say otherwise but just a touch below Miandad and Inzi

A great player who worked very hard, a very good example for youngsters
 
There is no official criteria as such to determine ATGs or Gs or Ls. All subjective and opinions will always differ. General take on matter suggests while YK has always been scoring runs, he's somewhat struggled to be hailed amongst the big dogs in world cricket, much to do with lack of flair and a rather boom or bust pattern to his batting across different geographical settings. The same is reflected in the kind of support he gets from his home fans. Despite the numbers, a big section of Pakistani fans are always ready to pounce on any opportunity to blast YK. This also suggests a bit about his unconvincing status as a great.

All said and done, he's been a great servant to Pakistan cricket and among their most reliable batsmen over the years. As a person also, he's on field behaviour has been exemplary. Certainly among the few players who's earned respect for Pakistan worldwide and this is all that should matter to fans. Comparisons come from insecurity, if players are doing their job, thats enough.
 
Yes Test is equally important but why go missing during previous tours and when series is still alive?

pcb is the culprit//..otherwise in another board he would have played 200 tests..but pcb is inept in arranging tets series and they dropped him from those tours due to their ego..
 
Don't know and don't care either. However, what I do care is about respect. And I'm sure he has earned the respect from fans all over the world. The man is a gem. The game of cricket will miss him.
 
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Yes. But you can have a different opinion and be ok which clearly means he is not in top rung

However sometimes it's sad to see when Indian fans don't give credit where it due and claim Laxman and Sehwag are better than him
 
I have utmost respect for YK as a batsman and not for his antics but if you imply that he is better than Dravid then hats off to your biased knowledge.:salute

He never claimed that YK is better than Dravid.

But you are making it seem as if they aren't in the same conversation even which is not the case either
 
I'm biased? It's clear whose playing to the gallery here.

I was talking about Laxman's record in Australia, not in overall terms.

So, you are telling that Dravids match winning knock in 2003 was of lower quality than the one played by Younis Khan in 2016 in a dead rubber?

Younis Khans average in Australia was around 35 from 2000 till the last dead rubber which he played. Australia had already won the series, comes the dead rubber and boom.... Younis Khan inflates his average from 35 to 50 in one knock in a dead game and becomes an ATG in that country. How easy.....

Lol at Dravid scoring against an ATG Aussie attack in 2003

Warne , McGrath and Brett Lee were not even playing in that Adelaide match

Atleast know facts before you make up things next time lest you embarrass yourself again

Or maybe you think Nathan Bracken, Brad Williams, Andy Bichel and McGill constitute an ATG attack!! [MENTION=113824]Nikhil_cric[/MENTION]
 
Why not?

When he surprisingly meets most of the average critereas in the OP which really are a benchmark used by Asian fans to rate their batsmen.

There is no one criteria for being an ATG. Averages alone don't tell the whole story; Younis cannot handle swing and seam, and throughout his career he has fished outside the off-stump like an amateur. He also hasn't played enough overseas, and it is not entirely his fault but this is how it is. Batsmen like Kohli and Rahane have played similar number of matches overseas, and they made their debuts a decade later. In 2004, he played well in Australia, in 2006, he played well in England and in 2006-07, he played well in South Africa, but Yousuf played better knocks. That has been the story of his performances overseas, almost every time someone from his team plays a better innings than him to outshine him. Yousuf did that in 2004 and 2006-07, Shafiq did that in Cape Town in 2013, and Azhar did that in Australia few months ago. England 2016 was perhaps the only time where his innings stood out compared to the rest.

In addition, he has weakness against bounce as well, but at times he has managed to counter that, for example the innings at Old Trafford in 2006. However, he has never produced a substantial innings against lateral movement, which is why he has not helped Pakistan win a series in any of the major non-Asian countries.

2016 was his best opportunity, with three consecutive series in England, New Zealand and Australia, and unlike the previous occasions, We had a pretty solid and settled team. In England, we had the good fortune of playing in late summer with good weather and grassless wickets, with Anderson and Stokes nursing injuries and Hales, Ballance and Vince trolling England in the top-order, but Younis took more than a month to adjust to the pace and bounce, and by that time, we were 2-1 down and a series win was out of question.

In NZ, the pitches resembled the Wimbledon grass courts and it was no surprise that he averaged 4. In Australia, he took two Tests to adjust to the pace and bounce, and by that time, we had lost the series. We played well in Brisbane and Melbourne without him playing any substantial innings, and had he showed up, we could have gone into the Sydney Test 1-1 or 1-0 up.

He has been a terrific player for Pakistan. A run machine who has made a great impact. In majority of the Test matches that we have won during the Misbah era, he has stood up for the team. However, he has not had a dominant series overseas which could have helped Pakistan win a series, and his failure rate of 82% last year (14 failures in 17 innings) meant that Pakistan lost 7 out of the 9 matches they played.

He is undoubtedly one of Pakistan's best ever, but he is not an ATG and he has not been able to place himself among the elites of the game. A league which has one Pakistani batsman only, and that is Miandad.
 
Lol at Dravid scoring against an ATG Aussie attack in 2003

Warne , McGrath and Brett Lee were not even playing in that Adelaide match

Atleast know facts before you make up things next time lest you embarrass yourself again

Or maybe you think Nathan Bracken, Brad Williams, Andy Bichel and McGill constitute an ATG attack!! [MENTION=113824]Nikhil_cric[/MENTION]

Exactly. Dravid averaged 15 when he first toured Australia against McWarne. He scored heavily against a 2nd string OZ attack in 03. and credit to him for that. But apart from that 1 tour, he did badly on subsequent tours as well when there were no ATG bowlers. Yet he accuses YK of inflating his stats despite the fact that YK did better than Dravid on his first tour against McWarne and he has certainly done much better than Dravid on his last tour where Dravid was getting bowled every single time.
[MENTION=88991]AlizeeFan[/MENTION] i'm not rating YK ahead of Dravid. Just pointing out the double standards of some posters when they compare YK's and Dravid's records.

[MENTION=143301]Gr8Gaur[/MENTION] Sir, I actually think Dravid was a better batsman in OZ/SA/NZ/ENG than YK is but the difference is not as much as people are making it out to be. Dravid has played 47 tests, scored 10 tons at an average of 48.xx and YK has played 30 tests with 5 tons with an average of 44. Because of politics, YK missed a tour each to OZ,ENG and NZ at his peak. If a 41 year old YK could score a double in England to level the series and have a very good tour of OZ, it is fairly plausible that he would have scored quite a few runs especially in OZ against a much weaker attack than Starc/Hazlewood
 
Lol at Dravid scoring against an ATG Aussie attack in 2003

Warne , McGrath and Brett Lee were not even playing in that Adelaide match

Atleast know facts before you make up things next time lest you embarrass yourself again

Or maybe you think Nathan Bracken, Brad Williams, Andy Bichel and McGill constitute an ATG attack!! [MENTION=113824]Nikhil_cric[/MENTION]

Fine, Lee and McGrath were not in the squad but Warne!!!! :warne Do you really think he was threat to Dravid or Indians? You should listen to Warne's interviews more often.

And btw why PAK toured AUS after 6 years? Were they waiting for Mitch and Harris to retire. Afterall Younis scored in the absence of two great fast bowlers Mitch and Harris whereas Kohli faced all 4 of them.
 
Exactly. Dravid averaged 15 when he first toured Australia against McWarne. He scored heavily against a 2nd string OZ attack in 03. and credit to him for that. But apart from that 1 tour, he did badly on subsequent tours as well when there were no ATG bowlers. Yet he accuses YK of inflating his stats despite the fact that YK did better than Dravid on his first tour against McWarne and he has certainly done much better than Dravid on his last tour where Dravid was getting bowled every single time.
[MENTION=88991]AlizeeFan[/MENTION] i'm not rating YK ahead of Dravid. Just pointing out the double standards of some posters when they compare YK's and Dravid's records.

[MENTION=143301]Gr8Gaur[/MENTION] Sir, I actually think Dravid was a better batsman in OZ/SA/NZ/ENG than YK is but the difference is not as much as people are making it out to be. Dravid has played 47 tests, scored 10 tons at an average of 48.xx and YK has played 30 tests with 5 tons with an average of 44. Because of politics, YK missed a tour each to OZ,ENG and NZ at his peak. If a 41 year old YK could score a double in England to level the series and have a very good tour of OZ, it is fairly plausible that he would have scored quite a few runs especially in OZ against a much weaker attack than Starc/Hazlewood

So by your logic Kohli is already a better batsman than YK and if you say he failed in ENG then we must not consider Lara and Warne great cause they both failed against IND whether playing at home or away?
 
A 41 year old Younis Khan scoring 100s in Aus and England suggests that he's likely to have done it in the 2009/10 tours when he was a better batsman in terms of reflexes and whatnot. However, this is all assumptions and no concrete feats which means that he cannot be rated ATG. Had he done so, he'd have been a bonafide ATG but alas. I'd rate him in the almost category, .i.e. KP, Amla, Cook category...definitely higher than batsman like Yousuf or Laxman though.
 
A 41 year old Younis Khan scoring 100s in Aus and England suggests that he's likely to have done it in the 2009/10 tours when he was a better batsman in terms of reflexes and whatnot. However, this is all assumptions and no concrete feats which means that he cannot be rated ATG. Had he done so, he'd have been a bonafide ATG but alas. I'd rate him in the almost category, .i.e. KP, Amla, Cook category...definitely higher than batsman like Yousuf or Laxman though.

What has age got to do with form??? Name one Asian batsman who has 4 test tons out of asia while he's still a teenager. And that too first 4 of his career.
 
What has age got to do with form??? Name one Asian batsman who has 4 test tons out of asia while he's still a teenager. And that too first 4 of his career.
True true, don't even know why Younis Khan announced retirement, should play on till he is a corpse since his age doesn't matter.
 
Younis khan did miss many series against strong sides at their peak and compensated later against weaker sides. He never toured in succession.

Can you give us example of those series?
 
A 41 year old Younis Khan scoring 100s in Aus and England suggests that he's likely to have done it in the 2009/10 tours when he was a better batsman in terms of reflexes and whatnot. However, this is all assumptions and no concrete feats which means that he cannot be rated ATG. Had he done so, he'd have been a bonafide ATG but alas. I'd rate him in the almost category, .i.e. KP, Amla, Cook category...definitely higher than batsman like Yousuf or Laxman though.

A fair assessment but i still think YK's an ATG. He's done just about enough imo. Most importantly, he averages 50+ in test cricket unlike Amla,Cook,KP etc.
 
True true, don't even know why Younis Khan announced retirement, should play on till he is a corpse since his age doesn't matter.

Thats why PCB finds itself at crossrads already, how many have they found to replace YK ?
 
A fair assessment but i still think YK's an ATG. He's done just about enough imo. Most importantly, he averages 50+ in test cricket unlike Amla,Cook,KP etc.

Then consider Voges to be better than SRT, Sanga, Kallis, Lara and Ponting. Afterall he averages 60 :troll
 
A fair assessment but i still think YK's an ATG. He's done just about enough imo. Most importantly, he averages 50+ in test cricket unlike Amla,Cook,KP etc.
That's your opinion and I can respect that. But you have to consider that Amla plays in South Africa, so he's never had the opportunity to regularly score big like YK did in the UAE. For all the players, there's only a slight reason that they've not reached ATG status...for Cook its that he's not dominant/impacting enough, for Amla it's that his decline has been to sudden and drastic and for KP it's that he's not consistent enough (however an inform KP leapfrogs into the Lara territory)

Thats why PCB finds itself at crossrads already, how many have they found to replace YK ?
The PCB is a pile of dog sh1t. I'm so grateful you have confirmed this with me, I was beginning to doubt myself :(.
 
A fair assessment but i still think YK's an ATG. He's done just about enough imo. Most importantly, he averages 50+ in test cricket unlike Amla,Cook,KP etc.

Amla plays a lot of his cricket in South Africa where there is considerable latter movement, which is a big weakness of Younis. If he would have played as many matches in South Africa as Amla has, there is no way he would have maintained his 50+ average. Amla on the the other hand has been exceptional in Asia, and would most certainly have averaged 50+ as a number 3/4 if he was from Pakistan, India or Sri Lanka.

As far as Cook is concerned, averaging 50+ as a opener while playing your home matches in England is more difficult than averaging 50+ as a number 4 in Asian conditions. Younis wouldn't average 50 if he opened in Test cricket in England regularly. The fact that Cook has a better away average including a 50+ average in Asia is no surprise or coincidence. As a middle-order batsman or even as an opener, Cook would have had a 50+ average if he was from one of the three Asians countries.

Pietersen though is from a different breed of batsman. His impact cannot be captured in stats. Inconsistent yes, but still a genius. Younis looks better on paper, but not many neutrals will have him over a peak Pietersen in their team. I would put Younis below him, Cook, Amla, Clarke and Sangakkara in Tests, but above de Villiers and Jayawardene.
 
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Yes, he's an ATG. There aren't many batsmen with 10,000 test runs at over 50.

He just isn't a huge star. Never was. Probably because of his ordinary limited overs career and his persona in general.
 
Not atg for me. Don't understand why Pakistan fans are fighting to prove he's an atg. There is no shame in not being atg. Not everyone can be.
 
Can you give us example of those series?

I can.

PAK played AUS in 2016-2017 right after 6-7 years whereas IND played in 2014 and before that in 2011. Younis Khan faced AUS when Johnson and Harris were already gone whereas India in 2014 with a young side (many playing for the first time in AUS) faced quartet of Starc+Hazlewood+Johnson+Harris.
 
Younis Khan is most definitely one of the all-time greats. There is no plausible criterion that he fails to meet, unless you give weight to imaginary things like "doesn't have the game against pace" or "doesn't have the aura of an ATG", in which case your opinion on this subject is as valid as the opinion of a flat-earther on globe designing.

He has the numbers, the performances, the peer appreciation, fan appreciation and to top it all off, he did all that he did for Pakistan, a team that always selects two donkeys as its openers (until recently and barring the great Anwar, of course).

Younis Khan is right up there as the fifth best Asian test cricketer of all time, slightly below Sachin, Gavasker and Miandad and equal with the immense Dravid and legendary Sangakkara.

The very fact that this question needs to be asked, shows that he is not an ATG.

These are such stupid benchmarks. "Player isn't an ATG if people are debating it" is pretty invalid because this discussion has taken place for every player and threads like this are simply so people can give their opinions on a topic.
 
Not atg for me. Don't understand why Pakistan fans are fighting to prove he's an atg. There is no shame in not being atg. Not everyone can be.

Of course, its like if somebody says Ashwin is such a good bowler, I say he is just average who needs turning tracks. On absolute flat decks like in Chennai against ENG or in Ranchi vs AUS, Jadeja proved to be better than him. Also Jadeja has a 6-fer in SA in the only test he played.
 
I can.

PAK played AUS in 2016-2017 right after 6-7 years whereas IND played in 2014 and before that in 2011. Younis Khan faced AUS when Johnson and Harris were already gone whereas India in 2014 with a young side (many playing for the first time in AUS) faced quartet of Starc+Hazlewood+Johnson+Harris.

On the flattest pitches this decade. That is a laughable point. Younis Khan, like any other player, does not have control over who his team tours and when. If anything, this has only stopped this from touring to England and Australia during his peak years and despite calls from all sides that he would fail consistently and his average would look more like Hafeez's rather than Dravid's, he defied expectations and scored a double and a 170* in England and Australia, respectively.

Younis Khan is not a pretty batsman to watch, I'd rather watch our own Yousuf and Inzi any day. However, he is mentally stronger than ANY cricketer from the last decade or more. His grit and determination has meant that he has performed all around the world, except South Africa, which is easily the toughest place to bat and even grit, like Smith would attest, isn't enough to do well there.
 
Laxman, like KP, was a batsman who played ATG innings but wasn't an ATG batsman. Too inconsistent to match the best of the best on a match-to-match basis.
 
These are such stupid benchmarks. "Player isn't an ATG if people are debating it" is pretty invalid because this discussion has taken place for every player and threads like this are simply so people can give their opinions on a topic.

I have no problem if you consider him an ATG. Have never seen their own countrymen debate the ATG status of a cricketer for the undisputed greats. Younis Khan was a decent batsman who punched above his weight, not even among the top 5 Pakistani batsmen.
 
Khan is an undisputed great. His ATG status is only up for debate amongst the bacha party and those who started watching cricket yesterday. Problem is Khan doesn't have the greatest gimmick to go along with his exceptional talent which is why fans in Pakistan worship the likes of Afridi and Malik instead. Khan is Bret The Hitman Hart of cricket in that sense.

Pakistan fans value gimmicks more then actual performance.
 
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Laxman, like KP, was a batsman who played ATG innings but wasn't an ATG batsman. Too inconsistent to match the best of the best on a match-to-match basis.

I agree that Khan is an ATG without a doubt but one thing I disagree with is KP not being an ATG, I agree he can be inconsistent but was also not handled the right way outside Vaughan who managed him best. Those match winning special knocks are worth the inconsistency to an extent which is why he is an ATG for me because of how much I value his hard runs.
 
One problem with ATG category is that you keep getting more and more candidates every generation so it can feel like there are now dozens of ATGs. I think a cricket Hall of Fame is more useful.

Still IMO, in mordern cricket to be a ATG batsman in Tests, you need 10,000+ runs with an average of 50+ to guarantee a place. So Younis will be in unless he flops Big Time.

You can argue where he would rank amongst the other batsmen, but that's a separate argument.
 
Khan is an undisputed great. His ATG status is only up for debate amongst the bacha party and those who started watching cricket yesterday. Problem is Khan doesn't have the greatest gimmick to go along with his exceptional talent which is why fans in Pakistan worship the likes of Afridi and Malik instead. Khan is Bret The Hitman Hart of cricket in that sense.

Pakistan fans value gimmicks more then actual performance.

I agree with the last bit. YK is the greatest test batsman pakistan has produced in decades and he deserves more crdit than what's given to him.
 
I agree with the last bit. YK is the greatest test batsman pakistan has produced in decades and he deserves more crdit than what's given to him.

Would you agree that he is similar to Bret? Which other star would compare? I suppose Bret greatness is not as disputed but often you will find that he is overlooked very easily in top 10 lists. Yeah the same fans still have a circle jerk over the 90's team given their "style" "flare" etc but they were only great on paper and that's about it, Khan will never get as much praise because he does't pledge allegiance to their narrow minded norms.
 
Ofc he is, the only question is where he ranks among those greats. That is it.

YK deserves a heroes send off, as does Misbah.

Yousuf should have got one too.

Inzy managed to get one while I think he is inferior to Miandad, YK and Yousuf.
 
Of course, its like if somebody says Ashwin is such a good bowler, I say he is just average who needs turning tracks. On absolute flat decks like in Chennai against ENG or in Ranchi vs AUS, Jadeja proved to be better than him. Also Jadeja has a 6-fer in SA in the only test he played.


This thread is about Younis. I don't think anyone rates Ashwin as atg at the moment.
 
Would you agree that he is similar to Bret? Which other star would compare? I suppose Bret greatness is not as disputed but often you will find that he is overlooked very easily in top 10 lists. Yeah the same fans still have a circle jerk over the 90's team given their "style" "flare" etc but they were only great on paper and that's about it, Khan will never get as much praise because he does't pledge allegiance to their narrow minded norms.

I'd say YK was more like Kane. Underrated by the casual fans but highly rated by those who have followed his career closely. Not much flair but always delivers. Bret's status as ATG is never disputed by anyone.
 
Another point to consider is that Younis was not able to establish himself in the Test team till 2005, when he was in his mid to late 20's, and that is because during the 2000-2005 period, he got found out by bowlers like Ambrose, Walsh, Donald and Pollock, an early sign of his weakness against quality pace. In fact, his failures against an attack of McGrath, Warne and Lee in Sharjah in 2002 nearly ended his Test career. In addition, one cannot ignore the fact that between 2006-07 and 2016, he only played 3 Tests in South Africa and none in Australia and England, which obviously boosted his stats.

He missed the 2009-10 tours where he probably would have scored in Australia, but the conditions in England in the summer of 2010 were extremely difficult for batting and given how he has never scored substantially against lateral movement, he was bound to fail in that series.
 
I'd say YK was more like Kane. Underrated by the casual fans but highly rated by those who have followed his career closely. Not much flair but always delivers. Bret's status as ATG is never disputed by anyone.

Kane is underated definetly but more of a what could have been case , Khan is definitely a lot more similar to Bret because both are ATG's but often overlooked or else Hart would make top 10's more easily.
 
Another point to consider is that Younis was not able to establish himself in the Test team till 2005, when he was in his mid to late 20's, and that is because during the 2000-2005 period, he got found out by bowlers like Ambrose, Walsh, Donald and Pollock, an early sign of his weakness against quality pace. In fact, his failures against an attack of McGrath, Warne and Lee in Sharjah in 2002 nearly ended his Test career. In addition, one cannot ignore the fact that between 2006-07 and 2016, he only played 3 Tests in South Africa and none in Australia and England, which obviously boosted his stats.

He missed the 2009-10 tours where he probably would have scored in Australia, but the conditions in England in the summer of 2010 were extremely difficult for batting and given how he has never scored substantially against lateral movement, he was bound to fail in that series.

Khan is the greatest of all time, why would anyone use his years where he was a work in progress as a barometer to judge him. In his prime the man was invincible and past it more then world class, even as an old man he has made attacks look like absolute jokes, past his prime won a test in England single handedly all on his own just goes to show how he'd have mercilessly destroyed the opposition on some key tours he missed. You're just a hater and you just generally don't like pathans for some reason, like why would you hate yourself man?
 
For all those criticising Dravid for his lack of runs in Australia forget that Dravid played as an opener( a position Dravid was reluctant to bat but did anyways for the team) in the first two tests in 2007 series because kumble wanted to play Yuvraj in the team.

In third test in Perth, he was back to his favourite position and scored a brilliant 90 on arguably the fastest pitch of the series.

In 2011, he had wanted to retire after England series, he was the only batsman who scored runs there so thought it would be selfish to retire on a high.

Dravid was India's best batsman between 2000-2005 and hit a purple patch and was scoring runs everywhere. Absence of McGrath and warne doesn't dilute his runs.

Also, we shouldn't forget all his runs came as an opener or at no 3, whereas younis was hiding down the order.
 
For all those criticising Dravid for his lack of runs in Australia forget that Dravid played as an opener( a position Dravid was reluctant to bat but did anyways for the team) in the first two tests in 2007 series because kumble wanted to play Yuvraj in the team.

In third test in Perth, he was back to his favourite position and scored a brilliant 90 on arguably the fastest pitch of the series.

In 2011, he had wanted to retire after England series, he was the only batsman who scored runs there so thought it would be selfish to retire on a high.

Dravid was India's best batsman between 2000-2005 and hit a purple patch and was scoring runs everywhere. Absence of McGrath and warne doesn't dilute his runs.

Also, we shouldn't forget all his runs came as an opener or at no 3, whereas younis was hiding down the order.

Dravid is the greatest Indian batsman ever, only Gavaskar comes close to him. Also, recall how well he did sought of past his prime during the 2013 tour of England in those challenging conditions :kohli
 
For all those criticising Dravid for his lack of runs in Australia forget that Dravid played as an opener( a position Dravid was reluctant to bat but did anyways for the team) in the first two tests in 2007 series because kumble wanted to play Yuvraj in the team.

In third test in Perth, he was back to his favourite position and scored a brilliant 90 on arguably the fastest pitch of the series.

In 2011, he had wanted to retire after England series, he was the only batsman who scored runs there so thought it would be selfish to retire on a high.

Dravid was India's best batsman between 2000-2005 and hit a purple patch and was scoring runs everywhere. Absence of McGrath and warne doesn't dilute his runs.

Also, we shouldn't forget all his runs came as an opener or at no 3, whereas younis was hiding down the order.

Brilliant 90? It was the ugliest innings of his career, where he was dropped on 10 at the slips, a regulation catch.
 
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For all those criticising Dravid for his lack of runs in Australia forget that Dravid played as an opener( a position Dravid was reluctant to bat but did anyways for the team) in the first two tests in 2007 series because kumble wanted to play Yuvraj in the team.

In third test in Perth, he was back to his favourite position and scored a brilliant 90 on arguably the fastest pitch of the series.

In 2011, he had wanted to retire after England series, he was the only batsman who scored runs there so thought it would be selfish to retire on a high.

Dravid was India's best batsman between 2000-2005 and hit a purple patch and was scoring runs everywhere. Absence of McGrath and warne doesn't dilute his runs.

Also, we shouldn't forget all his runs came as an opener or at no 3, whereas younis was hiding down the order.

Glenn McGrath has said on record that one Indian team member that gets direct entry to the famous 'Invincible Aussies' of 1999-2008 was one and only Dravid.

YK is great but far too less tons outside Asia, just 7/34.
 
Brilliant 90? It was the ugliest innings of his career, were he was dropped on 10 at the slips, a regulation catch.

McCullum was dropped thrice before he even reached 90, went on to score 300 against IND. Two of those chances I remember were squandered by Kohli and Ishant.

Best innings by a visiting batsman in the recently conducted Indian home season goes to Steve Smith for his brilliant 109 on the below average deck of Pune. He was dropped thrice as well and two of those chances were as simple as anything. 1 drop by Vijay and 2 by Mukund.
 
Brilliant 90? It was the ugliest innings of his career, where he was dropped on 10 at the slips, a regulation catch.

Most of Dravid's innings were ugly but effective. What matters is those ugly innings actually helped India win tests overseas unlike aesthetic but useless innings by some other players. :srt
 
Most of Dravid's innings were ugly but effective. What matters is those ugly innings actually helped India win tests overseas unlike aesthetic but useless innings by some other players. :srt

HaHa ... anyone who saw that innings will testify to what I said, that too dropped off a simple regulation catch while he was on 10. On another note, Dravid averaged 32 odd in that 4 match Test series, simply PHENOMENAL!!!

BTW, you must have seen him averaging a phenomenal 29 in SA. I guess that average of his helped India achieve such glory as well?
 
HaHa ... anyone who saw that innings will testify to what I said, that too dropped off a simple regulation catch while he was on 10. On another note, Dravid averaged 32 odd in that 4 match Test series, simply PHENOMENAL!!!

BTW, you must have seen him averaging a phenomenal 29 in SA. I guess that average of his helped India achieve such glory as well?

Agree, Tendulkar and Laxman did the quality run scoring in that match and set up a good target.

Tendulkar scored two massive tons in that series, if only Dravid had not gone missing in that series we could have won it.
 
Agree, Tendulkar and Laxman did the quality run scoring in that match and set up a good target.

Tendulkar scored two massive tons in that series, if only Dravid had not gone missing in that series we could have won it.

Didn't he go missing in the 1999 series in Aus as well when Australia were dominating the world and Mcgrath, Warne and a fast n furious Brett Lee was creating havoc for the Indian batsman? Did he average even 20 in that series?
 
Didn't he go missing in the 1999 series in Aus as well when Australia were dominating the world and Mcgrath, Warne and a fast n furious Brett Lee was creating havoc for the Indian batsman? Did he average even 10 in that series?

Yes off course, SRT was Man of the Series during the 1999 Tour and Laxman showed first glimpse of greatness against Australia. But, Dravid was very badly bullied by the Aussie bowlers in that series.
 
Didn't he go missing in the 1999 series in Aus as well when Australia were dominating the world and Mcgrath, Warne and a fast n furious Brett Lee was creating havoc for the Indian batsman? Did he average even 20 in that series?

My mistake, he didn't even average 20. He averaged a mind blowing sensational 15.50 in that 1999 Tour to Australia :)))
 
HaHa ... anyone who saw that innings will testify to what I said, that too dropped off a simple regulation catch while he was on 10. On another note, Dravid averaged 32 odd in that 4 match Test series, simply PHENOMENAL!!!

BTW, you must have seen him averaging a phenomenal 29 in SA. I guess that average of his helped India achieve such glory as well?

I have seen him bat with a bandage on his face after hit by a bouncer to save a test match, I have seen him don wicket keeping gloves so that his team could play extra batsman, I have seen him put his hand up and bat as an opener in tough conditions when a batsman who opened in odis decided to stick to his no 4 position in tests, I have also seen him come out of retirement and play odis and make a fool of himself in t20i because his team needed him.

What I haven't seen him do is sulk publicly after being denied the chance to score a double century or lose an odi to Bangladesh to score his last century.
 
Nice to see fans of legends of India fighting.This kind of thing happens only in subcontinent. Dhoni fans dislike Ganguly and vice versa, Sachin fans and Dravid fans claiming there hero is the real deal.
 
I have seen him bat with a bandage on his face after hit by a bouncer to save a test match, I have seen him don wicket keeping gloves so that his team could play extra batsman, I have seen him put his hand up and bat as an opener in tough conditions when a batsman who opened in odis decided to stick to his no 4 position in tests, I have also seen him come out of retirement and play odis and make a fool of himself in t20i because his team needed him.

What I haven't seen him do is sulk publicly after being denied the chance to score a double century or lose an odi to Bangladesh to score his last century.

Haha. How many does sachin score in the same match at perth which india won? He was given wrongly out in that innings as well.

How many matches u r great dravid won with his ugly 3 centuries as u say in 2011?

Haha dravid better than sachin? In u r dreams may be. He is a sitting duck against pace. He can definitely play swing but not pace by his dismal records in sa, aus.

He is a bunny against spin which again proved by his poor records in srilanka.
 
BTW, here are Dravid's averages in Australia in Tests -

1999 Test series - 15.50

2003 Test series (in the absence of McWarne) - 123.80

Australia v ICC World XI at Sydney - Oct 14-17, 2005 - 11.50 (2 innings)

2008 Test series - 33.85

2011 series - 24.25

:14::14::14::14::14::14:
 
Nice to see fans of legends of India fighting.This kind of thing happens only in subcontinent. Dhoni fans dislike Ganguly and vice versa, Sachin fans and Dravid fans claiming there hero is the real deal.

Dravid is not even fit to tie showlaces of Sachin. This is some frustrated Dravid fan or Dravid himself showing his bitterness.

We all live in India. We know what is the status of SRT compared to someone like Dravid in our country. Boring test match player.
 
I have seen him bat with a bandage on his face after hit by a bouncer to save a test match, I have seen him don wicket keeping gloves so that his team could play extra batsman, I have seen him put his hand up and bat as an opener in tough conditions when a batsman who opened in odis decided to stick to his no 4 position in tests, I have also seen him come out of retirement and play odis and make a fool of himself in t20i because his team needed him.

What I haven't seen him do is sulk publicly after being denied the chance to score a double century or lose an odi to Bangladesh to score his last century.

Because without his keeping he is a liability in odi cricket. Without that he would be no way selected in odis with his dismal strike rotation capacity.

I don't want to downgrade dravid but if u start dissing sachin then u know what u will get.

He is no saint. U r making as if he was a saint and others selfish.
 
I have seen him bat with a bandage on his face after hit by a bouncer to save a test match, I have seen him don wicket keeping gloves so that his team could play extra batsman, I have seen him put his hand up and bat as an opener in tough conditions when a batsman who opened in odis decided to stick to his no 4 position in tests, I have also seen him come out of retirement and play odis and make a fool of himself in t20i because his team needed him.

What I haven't seen him do is sulk publicly after being denied the chance to score a double century or lose an odi to Bangladesh to score his last century.

You missed my main point. his herculean average of 29 odd in the toughest place to bat i.e South Africa. BTW, he has lost us many matches in ODI cricket with his mind blowing strike rate of 71.
 
Lol, so Dravid did some Ehsaan on the Indian ODI team by doing wicket keeping and Tendulkar scored only useless runs. What a pathetic statement.... Dravid was a misfit in the Odi team, he took on gloves to retain his spot in the side..... His pathetic snail paced S/R was a disruption to progress of Indian Odi batting. Too bad he got kicked out of the Odi team and never got the chance to win the world cup due to his inability, while King SRT lifted the World Cup in style in Mumbai.

All hail King SRT.

The Greatest.
 
17 Years of Batting - Ranking Trend for YK

yk_rank5.jpg



Can we find another ATG who struggles to be among the top 5 for an extended period?

Some folks use Wasim's example of never being ranked 1 , but he was among the top 3 rank for an extended period in his career and he had far more competition for ATG in his days than YK.

Appearing in the top 3-4 won't make anyone an ATG, but being outside of top 5 for pretty much entire career tells you something. And, yes, Rankings takes account of how consistently you score runs relative to others in the same match, opposition rank, relative score in the match etc. So it has some context. It has some flaws as well like not taking account of alien conditions for players when giving weight, but that point won't help YK much.

YK is a very good test batsman who has played many clutch innings. He is surely one of the best bat of his time, but not really in ATG league. That's pushing it too much. Sure, ATG is subjective and some posters can have lots of batsmen as an ATG from each generation, but that's a different issue.
 
YK should score massively against the WI, then he will cross the 40+ average mark in most countries.

Anyone with 10K runs and decent averages in overseas conditions has to be ATG.
 
Because without his keeping he is a liability in odi cricket. Without that he would be no way selected in odis with his dismal strike rotation capacity.

I don't want to downgrade dravid but if u start dissing sachin then u know what u will get.

He is no saint. U r making as if he was a saint and others selfish.

Lol, so Dravid did some Ehsaan on the Indian ODI team by doing wicket keeping and Tendulkar scored only useless runs. What a pathetic statement.... Dravid was a misfit in the Odi team, he took on gloves to retain his spot in the side..... His pathetic snail paced S/R was a disruption to progress of Indian Odi batting. Too bad he got kicked out of the Odi team and never got the chance to win the world cup due to his inability, while King SRT lifted the World Cup in style in Mumbai.

All hail King SRT.

The Greatest.


Between 1999 and 2005, Dravid averaged almost 43 from 210 matches, scored 10 of his 12 centuries, and won nine out of 14 Man-of-the-Match awards. And not to forget he was the vice captain of the side that time.
And he didn't deserve place in the odis. :))

He took the responsibility of wicket keeping so that India could play seven batsmen. Ganguly wanted seven batsmen badly because we did not have a wicket keeper batsman like Dhoni then nor had tailenders who could bat. Something you would understand if you hadn't got your blinkered glasses on.
 
You missed my main point. his herculean average of 29 odd in the toughest place to bat i.e South Africa. BTW, he has lost us many matches in ODI cricket with his mind blowing strike rate of 71.

Toughest place because Hitman said so? This average of 29 won't tell you the herculean effort he and deep dasgupta had to put to save the test match for India which was ripped off the official status because of tussle between bcci and ICC.
 
Toughest place because Hitman said so? This average of 29 won't tell you the herculean effort he and deep dasgupta had to put to save the test match for India which was ripped off the official status because of tussle between bcci and ICC.

SA is indeed the toughest place for Asian batters, much more tougher than conditions in Australia, England and NZ where Asian batters have done comfortably well.

In the 90s there was Donald and after that there was Steyn who was very difficult to face on bouncier South African pitches. But that's fine, Dravid did well in countries like England so full points to him. It doesn't take anything away from him.
 
SA is indeed the toughest place for Asian batters, much more tougher than conditions in Australia, England and NZ where Asian batters have done comfortably well.

In the 90s there was Donald and after that there was Steyn who was very difficult to face on bouncier South African pitches. But that's fine, Dravid did well in countries like England so full points to him. It doesn't take anything away from him.

Adding further,

I know about the tussle, some Umpire had penalized many Indian players hence the dispute.

Dravid even played a good knock in 3rd Test of 1996/97 series in SA which was a Draw. I remember Tendulkar played a brilliant 150 + score in 2nd Test of that series. Great memories.
 
Between 1999 and 2005, Dravid averaged almost 43 from 210 matches, scored 10 of his 12 centuries, and won nine out of 14 Man-of-the-Match awards. And not to forget he was the vice captain of the side that time.
And he didn't deserve place in the odis. :))

He took the responsibility of wicket keeping so that India could play seven batsmen. Ganguly wanted seven batsmen badly because we did not have a wicket keeper batsman like Dhoni then nor had tailenders who could bat. Something you would understand if you hadn't got your blinkered glasses on.

It is an advantage to him as well as the team but u are making it sound like he has done some sacrifice for the team.

It was a mutual symbiotic relationship and not a host parasite relationship where the host (dravid) suffered for the team (parasite).

We r talking about batting but u r posting about rubbish like his character and what not which has no bearing.

He has to take up keeping because purely on batting alone he didn't merit a place which is why he was dropped in the first place
 
Between 1999 and 2005, Dravid averaged almost 43 from 210 matches, scored 10 of his 12 centuries, and won nine out of 14 Man-of-the-Match awards. And not to forget he was the vice captain of the side that time.
And he didn't deserve place in the odis. :))

He took the responsibility of wicket keeping so that India could play seven batsmen. Ganguly wanted seven batsmen badly because we did not have a wicket keeper batsman like Dhoni then nor had tailenders who could bat. Something you would understand if you hadn't got your blinkered glasses on.
Now u tell me why he was dropped from odis in the first place? Was he good enough as a batsman alone at that time? If he was good enough why he was dropped and why he has to take up keeping inorder to earn a place in the odi side?
 
It is an advantage to him as well as the team but u are making it sound like he has done some sacrifice for the team.

It was a mutual symbiotic relationship and not a host parasite relationship where the host (dravid) suffered for the team (parasite).

We r talking about batting but u r posting about rubbish like his character and what not which has no bearing.

He has to take up keeping because purely on batting alone he didn't merit a place which is why he was dropped in the first place

Yes he did it for his team, you can watch ganguly's interview where he said Dravid merited a place in his team even without being a wicket keeper.

Harsha bhogle said in his interview that there were two things which Dravid hated, one was opening and the other was wicket keeping but he did both for his team. Do you think an established player like Dravid would have been dropped from the tesr team has he refused to open?

And I was just toying with a sensitive Sachin fan here who took a dig at his "ugly" runs.
 
Thread is about YK and him being an ATG.

Why half of this thread is about Dravid vs SRT and all that? You guys should open a new thread to discuss it.
 
Toughest place because Hitman said so? This average of 29 won't tell you the herculean effort he and deep dasgupta had to put to save the test match for India which was ripped off the official status because of tussle between bcci and ICC.

Yea, that average of 29 does tell us how big of a failure he was in the toughest country to bat.
 
The only thing more dull and boring than watching Dravid bat with an SR of 35 odd was watching pain dry (although I'm not sure which was really more dull and boring).
 
All I am going to say regarding this is that if you don't consider Younis Khan an all time great test batsman then Miandad, Inzi and Yousuf don't make the cut either. Which is fair enough.
 
Yes he did it for his team, you can watch ganguly's interview where he said Dravid merited a place in his team even without being a wicket keeper.

Harsha bhogle said in his interview that there were two things which Dravid hated, one was opening and the other was wicket keeping but he did both for his team. Do you think an established player like Dravid would have been dropped from the tesr team has he refused to open?

And I was just toying with a sensitive Sachin fan here who took a dig at his "ugly" runs.
Haha. Now it comes to here say that bhogle said so it became truth.

It has nothing to do with his failure as a odi batsman isn't it.
 
Haha. Now it comes to here say that bhogle said so it became truth.

It has nothing to do with his failure as a odi batsman isn't it.

Are all Sachin fans so thick? I showed you his batting average and the reason why he deserved a place in the odis.

A batsman can be dropped and he can make a comeback by improving his game just like Dravid did.

Even Ganguly was dropped from odis alobg with Dravid in 2008. Does it mean he was a poor odi player throughout his life?
 
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