Islam and Shirk

[Hasan]

Shirk is identified is one of the greatest sins as it invalidate the core belief in the oneness of Allah.

However, many have used the concept of shirk to further their political agenda by extending and twisting its meaning to cast aspersions on the Islamic practices of other groups.

The salafis have been at the forefront of this distortion by shouting and screaming Shirk at anyone showing reverence and seeking proximity to the shininess and graves of the Prophet and his family members. So much so that they have destroyed a number of shrines and graves, including that of the daughter of the Prophet.

However, what these Salafies cannot eradicate if the Quran and its lessons for true believers. The ultimate and pinnacle form of worship for a Muslim is the Sajood/Sajada (bowing before Allah). However, Allah himself has used this act of prostration as a means of honouring his chosen people. So much so that those who down not bow to these chosen people either become or are deemed to be followers of Shatian.

For example Allah relates the stories of Prophet Adam and Yousuf and in whose honour the angels, men, sun, moon and stars prostrated themselves.

Reading the Quran has made me realise that the only path to Allah is to follow the path of those who Allah has honoured. Seek proximity to these people and following their example is not shirk but the path expected by Allah. As for those who shout and scream Shirk, just now that the greatest angel (Iblees) became a shatian when he exercise his own distorted concept of shirk by refusing to prostrate himself before Adam (a man made of clay).

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Salam bro, you have mentioned salafis by name, but as you arevstudying Quran, can you confirm that salafis are mentioned in the holy text so we can cross reference as per Sharia guidelines?

 

[Hasan]

In its current form and the type selected by the House of Saud is a 20th century iteration of Salafism. So mush after the revelation of the Quran.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Don't understand your point, maybe mush was a typo, can you perhaps clarify?

 

[Hasan]

The destruction of shrines, graves and posting of “religious” police to stop people honouring these great personalities under the guise of shirk is a recent innovative. This came about when the house of saud took control Hajaz following the fall of the ottomans which was engineered by the British.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

The destruction of shrines, graves and posting of “religious” police to stop people honouring these great personalities under the guise of shirk is a recent innovative. This came about when the house of saud took control Hajaz following the fall of the ottomans which was engineered by the British.

I see. But you used the term salafis in the OP and I was merely asking if such a term was used in the Quran. Otherwise using such a term itself is surely innovatiion?

 

[Hasan]

You are quite right, salafism in its original form was to follow Islam based on the ways of the early generations of Muslims. However, in its present form it is associated with the practices we see in present day Saudi Arabia.

A very frequent manifestation of this mind set was illustrated to me when a friend of mine was arrested for holding up his hands to recite fataha at the graves of Lady Fatima and her son Imam Hasan.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

You are quite right, salafism in its original form was to follow Islam based on the ways of the early generations of Muslims. However, in its present form it is associated with the practices we see in present day Saudi Arabia.

A very frequent manifestation of this mind set was illustrated to me when a friend of mine was arrested for holding up his hands to recite fataha at the graves of Lady Fatima and her son Imam Hasan.

There was no salafism in it's original form, it was simply called Islam.

 

[Hasan]

There was no salafism in it's original form, it was simply called Islam.

Yes but the term has been appropriated by the house of saud to indoctrinate people into believing in a concept which has no association with true Islam, as illustrated by the Quran.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Yes but the term has been appropriated by the house of saud to indoctrinate people into believing in a concept which has no association with true Islam, as illustrated by the Quran.

There is no mention of the house of saud in the Quran.

 

[Hasan]

There is no mention of the house of saud in the Quran.

And there is no mention of the USA but you cannot deny that the USA does not exist. That is just a silly argument.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

And there is no mention of the USA but you cannot deny that the USA does not exist. That is just a silly argument.

But USA is not related to the topic in question. How is that relevant?

 

[Hasan]

But USA is not related to the topic in question. How is that relevant?

Think it through logically, I am sure an intelligent person like you will get it.

 

[CricketCartoons]

Think it through logically, I am sure an intelligent person like you will get it.

If you cannot convince one poster here, how will you convince the others?

 

[Hasan]

If you cannot convince one poster here, how will you convince the others?

Well there has been no objection to my opening post. The individual was uncertain about the history of salafism which has been clarified.

The assertion that the concept of shirk had been distorted and twisted has not been challenged. Though I would be interested to see someone make an attempt.

The present day medina his been wiped clean of its history and point historical importance by the salafi Saudi regime because they fear that history and teaching of Islam stands contrary to their values and beliefs.

 

[SpiritOf1903]

Pakistanis venerate nanak, is that shirk?

 

[Hasan]

Pakistanis venerate nanak, is that shirk?

Shirk is inclusion of others in the worship of Allah. Respecting and following the example of noble and praiseworthy individuals does not fall within the fold of shirk.

 

[wajid]

Please keep studying but don’t get yourself hardwired into a corner so much that you feel need to write posts to condemn certain other groups, which you whether like or not, are still part of Islamic tradition. This is the actual wrong that modern day Saudi salafis committed.

Like you mentioned in OP, even those revered in deen have different opinions and ways of doing things. Just respect valid difference of opinion. This is evident and has been the way for centuries long intellectual tradition of Islam.

 

[Poseidon]

Shirk is identified is one of the greatest sins as it invalidate the core belief in the oneness of Allah.

However, many have used the concept of shirk to further their political agenda by extending and twisting its meaning to cast aspersions on the Islamic practices of other groups.

The salafis have been at the forefront of this distortion by shouting and screaming Shirk at anyone showing reverence and seeking proximity to the shininess and graves of the Prophet and his family members. So much so that they have destroyed a number of shrines and graves, including that of the daughter of the Prophet.

However, what these Salafies cannot eradicate if the Quran and its lessons for true believers. The ultimate and pinnacle form of worship for a Muslim is the Sajood/Sajada (bowing before Allah). However, Allah himself has used this act of prostration as a means of honouring his chosen people. So much so that those who down not bow to these chosen people either become or are deemed to be followers of Shatian.

For example Allah relates the stories of Prophet Adam and Yousuf and in whose honour the angels, men, sun, moon and stars prostrated themselves.

Reading the Quran has made me realise that the only path to Allah is to follow the path of those who Allah has honoured. Seek proximity to these people and following their example is not shirk but the path expected by Allah. As for those who shout and scream Shirk, just now that the greatest angel (Iblees) became a shatian when he exercise his own distorted concept of shirk by refusing to prostrate himself before Adam (a man made of clay).

ok. all things aside, will you plz tell me whats this ? look at its face, its a lion or a human ? or what ?

 

[Hasan]

Please keep studying but don’t get yourself hardwired into a corner so much that you feel need to write posts to condemn certain other groups, which you whether like or not, are still part of Islamic tradition. This is the actual wrong that modern day Saudi salafis committed.

Like you mentioned in OP, even those revered in deen have different opinions and ways of doing things. Just respect valid difference of opinion. This is evident and has been the way for centuries long intellectual tradition of Islam.

Firstly - my objection is not with respect their beliefs but the actions they have taken. The destruction they have caused to the historical landmarks of Islam is not only a crime against history but Islam itself. You may not care about this does not mean that others will be equally ambivalent or indifferent.

Secondly - this a public and open forum where members can post about topics of interest or concern as long as they do so in accordance with the forum’s policy. The fact that you dislike the subject being discuss but cannot present rebuttal is a problem with you and not the forum or the post.

Finally - the Quran (about which there is no doubt if you believe) quite categorically states that Allah commanded his angels, people and even the celestial bodies to venerate his chosen people by means of action which come close to but not the same as worship. But today if you stand at the grave of the prophet and his family members you are likely to be harassed and arrested by the salafi religious police.

Remember that Makka and Madina are not the personal property of the House of Saud but belong to the entire Muslim ummah. If that were not the case Hajj would not have been made obligatory on all able Muslims.

 

[Hasan]

ok. all things aside, will you plz tell me whats this ? look at its face, its a lion or a human ? or what ?

Strange question but I will oblige if you also respond to my question.....

It looks like a lion to me.

Do you think iblees was wrong to refuse Allah’s command to prostrate before a man made of clay. After all the act of prostration is a central pillar of worship of the all mighty. Why was Allah asking all the angels to bow before a man? Where the angels committing shirk by following Allah’s command?

 

[Stewie]

Please keep studying but don’t get yourself hardwired into a corner so much that you feel need to write posts to condemn certain other groups, which you whether like or not, are still part of Islamic tradition. This is the actual wrong that modern day Saudi salafis committed.

Like you mentioned in OP, even those revered in deen have different opinions and ways of doing things. Just respect valid difference of opinion. This is evident and has been the way for centuries long intellectual tradition of Islam.

Interesting concept. So all the fir was can be right or are right?

The Prophet himself said there will be so many firqas of his nation and only one will be right (or was it none, I don’t remember)
I understand your point about everybody doing their own thing as they see fit but that won’t make it right!

 

[Hasan]

What type of sajood do these verses of the Quran relate to? Certainly they cannot be shirk.

YUSUF (AS) SEES A DREAM [Surah Yusuf 12:4-6] 4. When Yusuf (Joseph) said to his father "O my father, surely I saw eleven stars and the sun and the moon, I saw them prostrating to me."

Yusuf 12-100 “And he raised his parents up on the throne, and they all fell before him in prostration. He said, “My father, here is the fulfillment of my early dream. My Lord has made it come true. He favored me when he released me from the prison, and brought you from the countryside after Satan had caused a rift between me and my brothers. Surely, my Lord does what He wills in a subtle way. Surely, He is the All-Knowing, the All-Wise.”

 

[Justcrazy]

Shirk is identified is one of the greatest sins as it invalidate the core belief in the oneness of Allah.

However, many have used the concept of shirk to further their political agenda by extending and twisting its meaning to cast aspersions on the Islamic practices of other groups.

The salafis have been at the forefront of this distortion by shouting and screaming Shirk at anyone showing reverence and seeking proximity to the shininess and graves of the Prophet and his family members. So much so that they have destroyed a number of shrines and graves, including that of the daughter of the Prophet.

However, what these Salafies cannot eradicate if the Quran and its lessons for true believers. The ultimate and pinnacle form of worship for a Muslim is the Sajood/Sajada (bowing before Allah). However, Allah himself has used this act of prostration as a means of honouring his chosen people. So much so that those who down not bow to these chosen people either become or are deemed to be followers of Shatian.

For example Allah relates the stories of Prophet Adam and Yousuf and in whose honour the angels, men, sun, moon and stars prostrated themselves.

Reading the Quran has made me realise that the only path to Allah is to follow the path of those who Allah has honoured. Seek proximity to these people and following their example is not shirk but the path expected by Allah. As for those who shout and scream Shirk, just now that the greatest angel (Iblees) became a shatian when he exercise his own distorted concept of shirk by refusing to prostrate himself before Adam (a man made of clay).

prostration has been made haram in this shariah, in earlier ones it was done for respect, not worship.
It has been made haram because people should not even come close or find back doors.

In earlier shariah alcohol was permitted , that does not mean it is so even now.

 

[wajid]

Interesting concept. So all the fir was can be right or are right?

The Prophet himself said there will be so many firqas of his nation and only one will be right (or was it none, I don’t remember)
I understand your point about everybody doing their own thing as they see fit but that won’t make it right!

The traditional Islamic understanding of firka or sects has been very different. Every strain of Islamic jurisprudence is not a separate sect. Historically hanafi, shafai, maliki, hanbali, sufi, salafi or “ghair muqallid “ are considered to be a broad school of tradition with valid differences in interpretation. Many include certain sects of Shia in this tradition as well. For example if you read earlier Islamic texts then shia are there as legitimate revered scholars. Two of the great imams, Imam Abu Hanifa and Imam Malik also supported Shia led khurooj against rulers of the day. Those considered “others” are like khuwarij, mutazila, etc...

Especially hanafi fiqh has a measure that if any problematic thing can be interpreted as kufr in 99 ways but there is one way where Islam is possible then we would take single interpretation and not 99 of kufr. The purpose of fiqh is to let people inside the circle of Islam, not to expel believers from it.

 

[Colorblind Genius]

Shirk is identified is one of the greatest sins as it invalidate the core belief in the oneness of Allah.

However, many have used the concept of shirk to further their political agenda by extending and twisting its meaning to cast aspersions on the Islamic practices of other groups.

The salafis have been at the forefront of this distortion by shouting and screaming Shirk at anyone showing reverence and seeking proximity to the shininess and graves of the Prophet and his family members. So much so that they have destroyed a number of shrines and graves, including that of the daughter of the Prophet.

However, what these Salafies cannot eradicate if the Quran and its lessons for true believers. The ultimate and pinnacle form of worship for a Muslim is the Sajood/Sajada (bowing before Allah). However, Allah himself has used this act of prostration as a means of honouring his chosen people. So much so that those who down not bow to these chosen people either become or are deemed to be followers of Shatian.

For example Allah relates the stories of Prophet Adam and Yousuf and in whose honour the angels, men, sun, moon and stars prostrated themselves.

Reading the Quran has made me realise that the only path to Allah is to follow the path of those who Allah has honoured. Seek proximity to these people and following their example is not shirk but the path expected by Allah. As for those who shout and scream Shirk, just now that the greatest angel (Iblees) became a shatian when he exercise his own distorted concept of shirk by refusing to prostrate himself before Adam (a man made of clay).

You coming from a Shia background, it's not surprising.

I think it's each to it's own.

In general, we should practice what we think is the best for us, and move on with our lives in a peaceful manner.

If mourning around a horse and beating oneself with chains provides spiritual elevation and helps someone strengthen their emaan and faith, good for them!

If someone refuses to bow to graves, good for them.
If someone believes that bowing at the shrines will help them get closer to God? Good for them!

In the end, God will decide.

From the little Quran I read, here is the conclusion I came to, if I put in a general terms.

Islamic doctrine has two basic pieces and both are equally mandatory.

First, one should offer 5 times dailyy salah with devotion, and pay zakaat if he owes.

Second, Living the of honesty in your day to day matters. Where you avoid doing injustice to others, avoid cheating, deceiving, lying, scheming, harming others and forfeiting their rights etc. You should have a good control on your tongue, avoid back biting, and you should avoid dealing in interest/Riba, avoid alcoholic drinks and other recreational drugs, stay away from fornication and stay away from consuming pork meat.

And you should practice patience, be forgiving, be generous, and be humble and serve your parents. Be caring towards your family, neighbors, nature, people in general, avoid lavish spending and avoid wasting resources.

You shouldn't go on any extremes and stay in the middle path and always be hopeful and cautious of your creator.
If you make a mistake, make up for it, and then repent from God with all honesty and pure intentions of not doing it again. And be hopeful that God is merciful and God forgives.

In my personal opinion, if a Muslim devotes his entire life in an effort to meet these two basic factors of Islamic guidance, then he perhaps does not need to worry too much about going into any further granularities to please God.


Shia school of thought conveniently rejects this hadeeth but for the underlined piece of above from your post, if we are talking people who were "Honored by God" then there are 10 sahabas that were given the ultimate good news of being "honored by God".

These are

1) Abu Bakr As-Siddeeq
2) ‘Umar ibn Al-Khattaab
3) ‘Uthmaan ibn ‘Affaan
4) 'Ali ibn Abi Taalib
5) Sa’d ibn Abi Waqqaas
6) Sa’eed ibn Zayd
7) Talhah ibn ‘Ubaydullaah
8) Az-Zubayr ibn Al-‘Awwaam
9) ‘Abdur-Rahmaan ibn ‘Awf
10) Abu ‘Ubaydah ibn Al-Jarraah

And if you look at their lives, neither did any prostrate to graves/shrines, nor did they mourn around a horse and beat oneself with chains. They strictly avoided introducing anything new to deen.

And in my opinion, starting innovation in deen is EXACTLY like sowing a seed. Over the time, it grows and grows, and it keeps evolving till it becomes a monster.

Perhaps a few decades ago, someone started the celebration of Prophet (saw) by getting together doing some basic forms of worship devoted to this day. It then spread and slowly turned into mass gatherings. Then to put more potency to it, they started naat, then naat with music and now it has evolved into full disco DJ's and female dancers on the stage at the service of the crowds.

Perhaps same goes with Muharram gatherings.
Long time ago, some people might have gathered to mourn the incident of Karbala, but then they needed to intensify it, so chest beating started, then perhaps a horse was introduced then now cutting oneself with blades.
Even the Muharram bayans have evolved.
Each year, the zakirs add something new into it to make it more sellable.
Each and every dialogue happening simultaneously between various parties is captured as if it's a Hollywood movie script with nth detail.

I was listening to one where where the Zakir said, there were 40 thousand spears penetrated in the body of Imam Hussain (ra) folks were fake crying but no one thought that a human body does not have enough real estate to accommodate 40 thousand spears. And if it were, who actually counted them on the body of Imram Hussain (ra) during the chaotic karbala massacre?

Here is an example

People who do all these things and dramay baazi are free to do whatever they wish to do and I don't have an issue with it. As I said, each to it's own.

For me personally, text in the blue is a good basic Islamic guideline. I don't need to visit shrines (where normally drug and prostitution business booms), in order to get any spiritual elevation; however, I have absolutely no problem in reciting fatiha and pray for the blessings of the deceased. And neither do I have to beat my chest and cut my skin with blades and mourn around a horse to strengthen my emaan and express my loyalty with Islamic faith.

The gist of all it is,
God has given the ability to choose, and we should make wise choices because in the end, we will be responsible for our choices based on freewill.

 

[wajid]

What type of sajood do these verses of the Quran relate to? Certainly they cannot be shirk.

YUSUF (AS) SEES A DREAM [Surah Yusuf 12:4-6] 4. When Yusuf (Joseph) said to his father "O my father, surely I saw eleven stars and the sun and the moon, I saw them prostrating to me."

Yusuf 12-100 “And he raised his parents up on the throne, and they all fell before him in prostration. He said, “My father, here is the fulfillment of my early dream. My Lord has made it come true. He favored me when he released me from the prison, and brought you from the countryside after Satan had caused a rift between me and my brothers. Surely, my Lord does what He wills in a subtle way. Surely, He is the All-Knowing, the All-Wise.”

Brother you seriously need context before understanding deen or anything for that matter. We understand and interpret not by translation, dictionary or by our own whims, but by the understanding that has been transferred to us generation after generation and people did sacrifice to secure it.

This is not the place but any molvi sahib can clarify the context of these aayat. And yes by consensus sujood to anyone is now forbidden.

 

[guna]

Strange question but I will oblige if you also respond to my question.....

It looks like a lion to me.

Do you think iblees was wrong to refuse Allah’s command to prostrate before a man made of clay. After all the act of prostration is a central pillar of worship of the all mighty. Why was Allah asking all the angels to bow before a man? Where the angels committing shirk by following Allah’s command?

The bigger question is, when Allah swt asked Angels to bow down to Adam, why would Iblees prostrate to Adam when he is not an Angel to begin with. Everyone knows Iblees is a Djinn.

 

[Hasan]

Brother you seriously need context before understanding deen or anything for that matter. We understand and interpret not by translation, dictionary or by our own whims, but by the understanding that has been transferred to us generation after generation and people did sacrifice to secure it.

This is not the place but any molvi sahib can clarify the context of these aayat. And yes by consensus sujood to anyone is now forbidden.

You are answerable for your own actions and beliefs. The response that I believe because my father/mother/mullah believe is not acceptable in Islam. Quran is an open and clear invitation, a reference point for you as an individual to decide between wrong and right.

Now coming back to my point, how can you deny the absolutely clear and open verses of the Quran in relation to the sunnah of Allah himself which made the honouring of his selected people an obligatory part of Islam.

Quran 2:34 “When We ordered the angels: "Prostrate before Adam in respect," they all prostrated except Iblees (Satan) who refused in his arrogance and became a disbeliever”.

My friend read the Quran as a free thinking person. What made ibless into what he became was his arrogance to accept Allah’s command, which was contrary to his own opinion. Allah forced the angels to submit to the superiority of Adam by prostrating themselves before Adam they all did except the arrogant.

Ibless committed shirk by not bowing to Adam but by placing his own opinion ahead of the command of Allah.

 

[Hasan]

“Surely your Lord is Allah Who created the heavens and the earth in six periods of time, and He is firm in power; He throws the veil of night over the day, which it incessantly pursues, and (He created) the sun and the moon and the stars (and) made them subservient (to you, serving you) by His command; surely His is the creation and the command; blessed is Allah, the Lord of the worlds”. (7:54)

True shirk is not about visiting graves, shrines or honouring the great personalities, as the salafies falsified.

No true shirk is to deny the commands of Allah, that is believing you know better than your creator.

 

[Colorblind Genius]

You are answerable for your own actions and beliefs. The response that I believe because my father/mother/mullah believe is not acceptable in Islam. Quran is an open and clear invitation, a reference point for you as an individual to decide between wrong and right.

Now coming back to my point, how can you deny the absolutely clear and open verses of the Quran in relation to the sunnah of Allah himself which made the honouring of his selected people an obligatory part of Islam.

Quran 2:34 “When We ordered the angels: "Prostrate before Adam in respect," they all prostrated except Iblees (Satan) who refused in his arrogance and became a disbeliever”.

My friend read the Quran as a free thinking person. What made ibless into what he became was his arrogance to accept Allah’s command, which was contrary to his own opinion. Allah forced the angels to submit to the superiority of Adam by prostrating themselves before Adam they all did except the arrogant.

Ibless committed shirk by not bowing to Adam but by placing his own opinion ahead of the command of Allah.

So your “free thinking brain” interprets this verse of Quran as, “prostration on graves is the order of Allah for all Muslims, and if we don’t follow it, we will be as arrogant as Satan when he refused to prostrate to Adam. And this refusal of prostration to graves is shirk.”

Is that what you are saying?

 

[Hasan]

So your “free thinking brain” interprets this verse of Quran as, “prostration on graves is the order of Allah for all Muslims, and if we don’t follow it, we will be as arrogant as Satan when he refused to prostrate to Adam. And this refusal of prostration to graves is shirk.”

Is that what you are saying?

Now you are being facetious.

The inappropriate and twisted interpretation of shirk which has lead to untold destruction of historical places, graves and shrines of the most illustrious personalities in Islam is nothing short of a crime.

The strength of veneration of these personalities is the sunnah of Allah himself as illustrated in the Quran. If the angels, men, sun, moon and starts can venerate Prophet Yousuf, why are we prevented from approaching the graves of the Greatest Prophet and his family.

If the salafies do not wish to venerate that is their choice but pls do not destroy and barricade these places. Makka and madina is not the domain of one faction but should be open to all Muslims to practise their faith as they see fit.

That is the point.

 

[Hasan]

The bigger question is, when Allah swt asked Angels to bow down to Adam, why would Iblees prostrate to Adam when he is not an Angel to begin with. Everyone knows Iblees is a Djinn.

It’s not just the jinn, but the angels, men, stars, the moon and the sun which according to the Quran acknowledge the status of these people through prostration.

This act of prostration was not as a means of worship (which is only for Allah) but the acknowledgement of the raised status of these created being of Allah. By seeking proximity to these individuals and acknowledging their status should not be seen as shirk but the following of the example set out in the Quran.

 

[Justcrazy]

The bigger question is, when Allah swt asked Angels to bow down to Adam, why would Iblees prostrate to Adam when he is not an Angel to begin with. Everyone knows Iblees is a Djinn.

Its a grammatical rule, when you address a large group, you address the majority of them, minority is included in that.

 

[Justcrazy]

“Surely your Lord is Allah Who created the heavens and the earth in six periods of time, and He is firm in power; He throws the veil of night over the day, which it incessantly pursues, and (He created) the sun and the moon and the stars (and) made them subservient (to you, serving you) by His command; surely His is the creation and the command; blessed is Allah, the Lord of the worlds”. (7:54)

True shirk is not about visiting graves, shrines or honouring the great personalities, as the salafies falsified.

No true shirk is to deny the commands of Allah, that is believing you know better than your creator.

No one says honouring great personalities is a shirk, but associating divine powers with them is a shirk.

 

[Justcrazy]

Now you are being facetious.

The inappropriate and twisted interpretation of shirk which has lead to untold destruction of historical places, graves and shrines of the most illustrious personalities in Islam is nothing short of a crime.

The strength of veneration of these personalities is the sunnah of Allah himself as illustrated in the Quran. If the angels, men, sun, moon and starts can venerate Prophet Yousuf, why are we prevented from approaching the graves of the Greatest Prophet and his family.

If the salafies do not wish to venerate that is their choice but pls do not destroy and barricade these places. Makka and madina is not the domain of one faction but should be open to all Muslims to practise their faith as they see fit.

That is the point.

Imam Ali himself said to level the graves. And he said because Muhammad SAW told him to do that

 

[guna]

Its a grammatical rule, when you address a large group, you address the majority of them, minority is included in that.

If I go to Pakistan and say, all Muslims go to Hajj, it means that Hindus and Christians also must go to Hajj?

 

[wajid]

You are answerable for your own actions and beliefs. The response that I believe because my father/mother/mullah believe is not acceptable in Islam. Quran is an open and clear invitation, a reference point for you as an individual to decide between wrong and right.

Now coming back to my point, how can you deny the absolutely clear and open verses of the Quran in relation to the sunnah of Allah himself which made the honouring of his selected people an obligatory part of Islam.

Quran 2:34 “When We ordered the angels: "Prostrate before Adam in respect," they all prostrated except Iblees (Satan) who refused in his arrogance and became a disbeliever”.

My friend read the Quran as a free thinking person. What made ibless into what he became was his arrogance to accept Allah’s command, which was contrary to his own opinion. Allah forced the angels to submit to the superiority of Adam by prostrating themselves before Adam they all did except the arrogant.

Ibless committed shirk by not bowing to Adam but by placing his own opinion ahead of the command of Allah.

I am replying here only because you seem to ask sincere question. Otherwise I always feel most posts regarding deen on social media is trolling.

Now, Allah can give a command and take it back. There are dozens of examples of it. For example change of qibla etc...

Also, Quran was not revealed as text only. But with complete interpretation (ahadith) and an example (sunnah). Thus, regarding any matter relying only on text of Quran without taking into account complete guidance as given in ahadith and sunnah is senseless. The matter of visiting graves and limits of revering pious is also such a matter.

And just for your reference, in first rukoo of Surah Baqarah Allah says that he revealed this Quran in which there are clear aayat and some are “mushtabihaat “ ( not clear) and those people who have deep knowledge do not try to interpret them by their own will. They say that we believe whatever has been revealed by Allah.

 

[guna]

I am replying here only because you seem to ask sincere question. Otherwise I always feel most posts regarding deen on social media is trolling.

Now, Allah can give a command and take it back. There are dozens of examples of it. For example change of qibla etc...

Also, Quran was not revealed as text only. But with complete interpretation (ahadith) and an example (sunnah). Thus, regarding any matter relying only on text of Quran without taking into account complete guidance as given in ahadith and sunnah is senseless. The matter of visiting graves and limits of revering pious is also such a matter.

And just for your reference, in first rukoo of Surah Baqarah Allah says that he revealed this Quran in which there are clear aayat and some are “mushtabihaat “ ( not clear) and those people who have deep knowledge do not try to interpret them by their own will. They say that we believe whatever has been revealed by Allah.

I have read many posts on this board regarding Islam and most do not seem to trust Hadith even if they are authentic sahih from Bukhari or Sunan Ibn Majah.

 

[Down2Earth]

What do you mean by salafis? If you mean Saudis then you probably mean hanbalis which is a great school of thought.

Those that claim to be salafis are just lying to themselves. Everyone follows someone, everyone is influenced by their school of thought.

What the 4 main schools of thought agree is that prostrating to graves is an act of shirk

 

[Justcrazy]

If I go to Pakistan and say, all Muslims go to Hajj, it means that Hindus and Christians also must go to Hajj?

When you address a certain group, then according to Arabic Grammar rules the majority is addressed to and the minority is included. This is followed in Hebrew and Aramaic as well. Among that group Iblis was a huge minority, in fact only jinn.

 

[guna]

When you address a certain group, then according to Arabic Grammar rules the majority is addressed to and the minority is included. This is followed in Hebrew and Aramaic as well. Among that group Iblis was a huge minority, in fact only jinn.

Look at the core commandments of Islam below for all Muslims.
The Five Pillars are the core beliefs and practices of Islam:
Profession of Faith (shahada). The belief that "There is no god but God, and Muhammad is the Messenger of God" is central to Islam. ...
Prayer (salat). ...
Alms (zakat). ...
Fasting (sawm). ...
Pilgrimage (hajj).

Does it mean all minority non-muslims should also follow these?

This is ridiculous and makes no sense.

 

[Justcrazy]

Look at the core commandments of Islam below for all Muslims.
The Five Pillars are the core beliefs and practices of Islam:
Profession of Faith (shahada). The belief that "There is no god but God, and Muhammad is the Messenger of God" is central to Islam. ...
Prayer (salat). ...
Alms (zakat). ...
Fasting (sawm). ...
Pilgrimage (hajj).

Does it mean all minority non-muslims should also follow these?

This is ridiculous and makes no sense.

Yes all are commanded to follow. Quran was revealed for the whole of humanity. This is a command, if they do not they would be held accountable, Non-Muslims as well as Muslims.

The problem with you now is that Jesus himself says in Mathew 7:24 that I was sent for Israel, how come you are preaching Christianity to the whole world!

 

[guna]

Yes all are commanded to follow. Quran was revealed for the whole of humanity. This is a command, if they do not they would be held accountable, Non-Muslims as well as Muslims.

The problem with you now is that Jesus himself says in Mathew 7:24 that I was sent for Israel, how come you are preaching Christianity to the whole world!

Your explanation is absolutely ridiculous. Show me a reference where it says that when a command is given to Lions (majority), it applies to Goats (minority) as well.

Bhai, Quran also clearly mentions that it was revealed for you in a language that you all can understand. Clearly showing it was only for Arabs of certain area. 80% of the Muslim world do not speak Arabic.

 

[Colorblind Genius]

Your explanation is absolutely ridiculous. Show me a reference where it says that when a command is given to Lions (majority), it applies to Goats (minority) as well.

Bhai, Quran also clearly mentions that it was revealed for you in a language that you all can understand. Clearly showing it was only for Arabs of certain area. 80% of the Muslim world do not speak Arabic.

So, are you saying that at the time of Quran revelation, there were Chinese speaking Muslims in China, and you are saying, that God should've revealed a Chinese version of Quran on those Chinese Muslims?

Or, are you saying that God should've revealed Quran on Arab speaking people, in the Chinese language?


By the way, here is one for you,


CDC says fully vaccinated Americans can spend time together indoors and unmasked

So are you saying, anyone living in USA who is a green card holder on an Indian passport (which means he is NOT an American) but he is fully vaccinated; however he cannot relate himself to this news?

https://www.statnews.com/2021/03/08/fully-vaccinated-americans-spend-time-together-indoors-unmasked/

 

[guna]

So, are you saying that at the time of Quran revelation, there were Chinese speaking Muslims in China, and you are saying, that God should've revealed a Chinese version of Quran on those Chinese Muslims?

Or, are you saying that God should've revealed Quran on Arab speaking people, in the Chinese language?


By the way, here is one for you,


CDC says fully vaccinated Americans can spend time together indoors and unmasked

So are you saying, anyone living in USA who is a green card holder on an Indian passport (which means he is NOT an American) but he is fully vaccinated; however he cannot relate himself to this news?

https://www.statnews.com/2021/03/08/fully-vaccinated-americans-spend-time-together-indoors-unmasked/

Quran is for eternity. Not for the time when it was revealed to Arabs. For a 21st century Japanese guy reading the verse in Quran, that verse makes so sense as he does not understand Arabic.

If Quran was for entire humanity, that verse should not be revealed at all or the Quran should have been revealed in all languages.

Are you equating what some guy at CDC says to what Allah swt says in Quran? Anyways, here Americans means all legal citizens of America and people living legally in America.
If CDC says all US Citizens, then green card holders and illegals do not come in the picture. In the Quran Allah swt orders Angels to bowdown to Adam. Not Djinns. Hence Iblees did not prostrate to Adam. Not hard to understand.

God's word should not be restricted by language. Quran clearly says that it is a clear book which is easy to understand and revealed in a language that you understand. None of it applies to Non-Arabs. Even in Arabs, it is revealed in Qureish dialect in old Arabic which most modern Arabs find hard to understand.

 

[wajid]

I have read many posts on this board regarding Islam and most do not seem to trust Hadith even if they are authentic sahih from Bukhari or Sunan Ibn Majah.

There choice. But it not even a trend in Islamic world let alone a school of thought. Contrarily, Muslim intellectual tradition since beginning considers it a source of knowledge (deen).

And I know about those who do not consider hadith valid source of knowledge. But honestly, there are significantly more QANON believers in America than that and people who believe democrats are lizard aliens!!! So, odd opinion is always there, doesn’t mean it is mainstream Islamic discourse.

 

[Free Hit]

What do you mean by salafis? If you mean Saudis then you probably mean hanbalis which is a great school of thought.

Those that claim to be salafis are just lying to themselves. Everyone follows someone, everyone is influenced by their school of thought.

What the 4 main schools of thought agree is that prostrating to graves is an act of shirk

No muslims prostrates to grave.

If you are referring to odd videos here and there of handful people prostrating to grave or to a human then know thay they are wrong and 99.99% muslims know we only prostrate to Allah paak.

 

[wajid]

Look at the core commandments of Islam below for all Muslims.
The Five Pillars are the core beliefs and practices of Islam:
Profession of Faith (shahada). The belief that "There is no god but God, and Muhammad is the Messenger of God" is central to Islam. ...
Prayer (salat). ...
Alms (zakat). ...
Fasting (sawm). ...
Pilgrimage (hajj).

Does it mean all minority non-muslims should also follow these?

This is ridiculous and makes no sense.

well that’s why Quran doesn’t came as text only. It came with understanding and explanation. That is the purpose of prophet otherwise there is no need for prophethood.

Now
1. For iblis among angels, the common understanding is that he due to his piety was included into the ranks of angels. Hence, when angels were called upon to prostate, he was included in it as well. And fo the sake of argument, even if he thought that he is excluded, then rest of the ensuing events explicitly made it clear that he is also required to do sajda. And by the way I have to appreciate those giving such legal excuses for iblis that even iblis didn’t think about such legal “hujjatbazi” at that time. This is something to say about those who are crafting such excuses on his behalf!!

2. For Quran being for Arabs only, it is pure fallacy as it can be readily shown how elsewhere Quran itself declares that it is revealed as guidance for everyone in the world. This abandoning of common sense by literalists is nothing new.

 

[wajid]

What do you mean by salafis? If you mean Saudis then you probably mean hanbalis which is a great school of thought.

Those that claim to be salafis are just lying to themselves. Everyone follows someone, everyone is influenced by their school of thought.

What the 4 main schools of thought agree is that prostrating to graves is an act of shirk

I agree with the underlying reasoning. But even salafies say that they follow the understanding of “salf saaliheen “. So their claim is not of not following anyone but instead to follow general understanding of earlier generations of Islam.

I think they can be called partially hanbali or “taimi “ as in followers of Imam ibn e tamiyyah RA

 

[guna]

There choice. But it not even a trend in Islamic world let alone a school of thought. Contrarily, Muslim intellectual tradition since beginning considers it a source of knowledge (deen).

And I know about those who do not consider hadith valid source of knowledge. But honestly, there are significantly more QANON believers in America than that and people who believe democrats are lizard aliens!!! So, odd opinion is always there, doesn’t mean it is mainstream Islamic discourse.

How do you decide which Hadis to trust? Do you trust all of Bukhari?

 

[Colorblind Genius]

Quran is for eternity. Not for the time when it was revealed to Arabs. For a 21st century Japanese guy reading the verse in Quran, that verse makes so sense as he does not understand Arabic.

If Quran was for entire humanity, that verse should not be revealed at all or the Quran should have been revealed in all languages.

Are you equating what some guy at CDC says to what Allah swt says in Quran? Anyways, here Americans means all legal citizens of America and people living legally in America.
If CDC says all US Citizens, then green card holders and illegals do not come in the picture. In the Quran Allah swt orders Angels to bowdown to Adam. Not Djinns. Hence Iblees did not prostrate to Adam. Not hard to understand.

God's word should not be restricted by language. Quran clearly says that it is a clear book which is easy to understand and revealed in a language that you understand. None of it applies to Non-Arabs. Even in Arabs, it is revealed in Qureish dialect in old Arabic which most modern Arabs find hard to understand.

Interesting.
So YOU will decide what language or languages should God reveal his message?


So what's the situation with Bible then?
Is it a word of God?
Was it revealed in all languages for all people because Jesus supposedly died the sins of all humanity.

 

[guna]

Interesting.
So YOU will decide what language or languages should God reveal his message?


So what's the situation with Bible then?
Is it a word of God?
Was it revealed in all languages for all people because Jesus supposedly died the sins of all humanity.

I don’t decide anything. It’s common sense and the creator of the universe surely should know better than that.

I do not decide if something is word of God. We should be able to question the content of the Bible though.
For you, Jesus supposedly died for the sins of humanity. For the 3 billion Christians, it’s the truth. You can neither prove nor disprove it.

 

[Colorblind Genius]

well that’s why Quran doesn’t came as text only. It came with understanding and explanation. That is the purpose of prophet otherwise there is no need for prophethood.

Now
1. For iblis among angels, the common understanding is that he due to his piety was included into the ranks of angels. Hence, when angels were called upon to prostate, he was included in it as well. And fo the sake of argument, even if he thought that he is excluded, then rest of the ensuing events explicitly made it clear that he is also required to do sajda. And by the way I have to appreciate those giving such legal excuses for iblis that even iblis didn’t think about such legal “hujjatbazi” at that time. This is something to say about those who are crafting such excuses on his behalf!!

2. For Quran being for Arabs only, it is pure fallacy as it can be readily shown how elsewhere Quran itself declares that it is revealed as guidance for everyone in the world. This abandoning of common sense by literalists is nothing new.

more over, if you analyze the verses, Satan does NOT say something along the lines of, "Oh God, that prostration order is for Angles only, and hence it does not apply to me".

His actual reply indicates and he knew that the prostration was for him too.

"He argued that since he himself was created from fire, he is superior to humans, made from Clay-mud, and that he should not prostrate himself before Adam."

Poor and dumb Satan.
He should've consulted Mr. guna here to get the wisdom and a better answer.

 

[Colorblind Genius]

I don’t decide anything. It’s common sense and the creator of the universe surely should know better than that.

I do not decide if something is word of God. We should be able to question the content of the Bible though.
For you, Jesus supposedly died for the sins of humanity. For the 3 billion Christians, it’s the truth. You can neither prove nor disprove it.

Do you choose to believe in Bible as the word of God?

 

[guna]

Do you choose to believe in Bible as the word of God?

I am not a fan of old testament and its brutal stories. The life of of Jesus is beautiful and inspirational. Jesus never cursed anyone or blamed anyone even though he was getting crucified.

If you think I am a Christian, then you are wrong. However I do appreciate his teachings just like I appreciate all non-violent teachings in all religions. A benevolent God can never be vengeful and punish people for not believing in him. If there is God, then Jesus is pretty close.

 

[guna]

more over, if you analyze the verses, Satan does NOT say something along the lines of, "Oh God, that prostration order is for Angles only, and hence it does not apply to me".

His actual reply indicates and he knew that the prostration was for him too.

"He argued that since he himself was created from fire, he is superior to humans, made from Clay-mud, and that he should not prostrate himself before Adam."

Poor and dumb Satan.
He should've consulted Mr. guna here to get the wisdom and a better answer.

In Bible, Satan is a fallen angel and the story of banishment of Satan from heaven makes more sense to me.

Satan was indeed dumb for not presenting proper reasoning in front of God.

 

[Colorblind Genius]

I am not a fan of old testament and its brutal stories. The life of of Jesus is beautiful and inspirational. Jesus never cursed anyone or blamed anyone even though he was getting crucified.

If you think I am a Christian, then you are wrong. However I do appreciate his teachings just like I appreciate all non-violent teachings in all religions. A benevolent God can never be vengeful and punish people for not believing in him. If there is God, then Jesus is pretty close.

In Bible, Satan is a fallen angel and the story of banishment of Satan from heaven makes more sense to me.

Satan was indeed dumb for not presenting proper reasoning in front of God.

If you are not a Christian but you believe in Jesus then what are you? Muslim?

 

[Justcrazy]

Your explanation is absolutely ridiculous. Show me a reference where it says that when a command is given to Lions (majority), it applies to Goats (minority) as well.

Bhai, Quran also clearly mentions that it was revealed for you in a language that you all can understand. Clearly showing it was only for Arabs of a certain area. 80% of the Muslim world do not speak Arabic.

If you do not know the basics of Arabic Grammar that is not my fault. Instead of calling something ridiculous, its better to do some research first.

Quran was revealed in the language of the prophet because he can explain it properly and convincingly. But He did not say I was sent as a prophet to Arabs only.

 

[Justcrazy]

How do you decide which Hadis to trust? Do you trust all of Bukhari?

Not the whole Bukhari , the hadeeth of Bukhari which have chain of narrations with it. In Bukhari there are some hadeeth written by Imam Bukhari without chains, they cannot be trusted unless we can verify the chains from other books.

 

[Justcrazy]

I don’t decide anything. It’s common sense and the creator of the universe surely should know better than that.

I do not decide if something is word of God. We should be able to question the content of the Bible though.
For you, Jesus supposedly died for the sins of humanity. For the 3 billion Christians, it’s the truth. You can neither prove nor disprove it.

Jesus died for our sins or not we can prove, and the criteria is Bible. 3 billion or 30 billion Christians may believe something, but that does not make it a fact, same way 3 billion or 30 billion Muslims may believe something unless they prove from an authentic source would mean nothing.

 

[Justcrazy]

I am not a fan of old testament and its brutal stories. The life of of Jesus is beautiful and inspirational. Jesus never cursed anyone or blamed anyone even though he was getting crucified.

If you think I am a Christian, then you are wrong. However I do appreciate his teachings just like I appreciate all non-violent teachings in all religions. A benevolent God can never be vengeful and punish people for not believing in him. If there is God, then Jesus is pretty close.

But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me.



This is what Jesus said!

 

[Justcrazy]

If you are not a Christian but you believe in Jesus then what are you? Muslim?

He is a Christian.

 

[Colorblind Genius]

He is a Christian.

He said he is not.

If you think I am a Christian, then you are wrong.

So either he is a liar or a hypocrite or a coward. Or perhaps all three.

But I know his kind.
They will come here to attack and be critical of other faiths but are too shy and scared of revealing their own.
Or they conveniently become temporary Atheists or Agnostics.

So let’s hear it from him as to what’s his belief?

 

[ishtiaq_ctg]

There choice. But it not even a trend in Islamic world let alone a school of thought. Contrarily, Muslim intellectual tradition since beginning considers it a source of knowledge (deen).

And I know about those who do not consider hadith valid source of knowledge. But honestly, there are significantly more QANON believers in America than that and people who believe democrats are lizard aliens!!! So, odd opinion is always there, doesn’t mean it is mainstream Islamic discourse.

Hadith in the earliest sunni schools of thought(hanafi & maliki) was never considered as a source of deen. Imam Abu Hanifa gave rational(ijtihaad) precedence over hadiths and Imam Malik gave practice of medina precedence over hadiths. Muatta of Malik considered many to be the soundest of all hadith book, still isn't considered as a source of deen in the maliki fiqh.

Hadith as a valid source of deen was a concept that was popularized by Imam Shafei. Even today the two fiqhs hanafi and maliki dosent consider bukhari & muslim as sources of deen based on their fiqhi usool.(Deobandis & barelvis are pseudo hanafis and rarely adhere to the hanafi usool).

 

[wajid]

How do you decide which Hadis to trust? Do you trust all of Bukhari?

Its not my job as I am not an expert. And like the rest of the affairs in my life I trust expert opinion on this. Scholars of hadith has spent their lives for generations after generations to this end. If they claim certain hadith to be authentic then I believe their opinion. And they have developed extensive knowledge and databases like usool and ilm al rijaal so you can even ask them for a rational explanation and they will give it to you.

 

[wajid]

Hadith in the earliest sunni schools of thought(hanafi & maliki) was never considered as a source of deen. Imam Abu Hanifa gave rational(ijtihaad) precedence over hadiths and Imam Malik gave practice of medina precedence over hadiths. Muatta of Malik considered many to be the soundest of all hadith book, still isn't considered as a source of deen in the maliki fiqh.

Hadith as a valid source of deen was a concept that was popularized by Imam Shafei. Even today the two fiqhs hanafi and maliki dosent consider bukhari & muslim as sources of deen based on their fiqhi usool.(Deobandis & barelvis are pseudo hanafis and rarely adhere to the hanafi usool).

I don’t think this is the factual representation of the situation. Imam Malik and Imam Abu Hanifa do give rulings based on Hadith from what I have read. Hadith was compiled later and also that period also had the phenomenon of people making up false Hadith. Post compilation of hadith, I believe hanafi scholars hold it as source of deen.

Infact I read there are rulings by Imam Abu Hanifa based on just one solitary Hadith. So he took is as basis of deen, there is no denying it.

Also, these school of thoughts and especially hanafi school of thought is not based on rigidly following fatwa of their namesake. For example hanafis take opinion of Imam Abu Yousuf or Imam Muhammad.

For being pseudo hanafis, then how would you characterise further development of intellectual thought? Do you think Marxist, Leninist, maoists follow their namesakes to the letter? I think it reasonable for a school of thought to evolve and refine over time with certain constraints and limitations.

 

[guna]

Its not my job as I am not an expert. And like the rest of the affairs in my life I trust expert opinion on this. Scholars of hadith has spent their lives for generations after generations to this end. If they claim certain hadith to be authentic then I believe their opinion. And they have developed extensive knowledge and databases like usool and ilm al rijaal so you can even ask them for a rational explanation and they will give it to you.

Imam Bukhari himself spent his life collecting Hadiths and only keeping the ones with proper chain of narration. A rational explanation is like mental gymnastics to make something look palatable.

 

[guna]

But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me.



This is what Jesus said!

The verse is part of a parable that Jesus taught. The parable seems intended to teach about the judgment of God at this point. It does not suggest that human governance should even follow this example.

What Jesus taught was in parables. The entire bible is full of parables.

 

[guna]

If you are not a Christian but you believe in Jesus then what are you? Muslim?

Why does it matter what I believe or not believe in?

 

[Justcrazy]

He said he is not.



So either he is a liar or a hypocrite or a coward. Or perhaps all three.

But I know his kind.
They will come here to attack and be critical of other faiths but are too shy and scared of revealing their own.
Or they conveniently become temporary Atheists or Agnostics.

So let’s hear it from him as to what’s his belief?

He tried to prove to me that in Bible it is written Jesus is divine, he could not do that.
If he disagrees I am ready for a discussion on the issue of the divinity of Jesus.

I do not know any Muslim who believes Jesus or any prophet is divine in nature.

 

[Colorblind Genius]

He tried to prove to me that in Bible it is written Jesus is divine, he could not do that.
If he disagrees I am ready for a discussion on the issue of the divinity of Jesus.

I do not know any Muslim who believes Jesus or any prophet is divine in nature.

lol hahah..

See the bigotry?

Why does it matter what I believe or not believe in?

 

[Justcrazy]

The verse is part of a parable that Jesus taught. The parable seems intended to teach about the judgment of God at this point. It does not suggest that human governance should even follow this example.

What Jesus taught was in parables. The entire bible is full of parables.

I forgot to give reference of the above statement of Jesus its in Luke 19: 27

Now if we proceed further into Luke 19:38 it says the disciples of Jesus proclaim


Blessed is the king who comes in the name of the Lord!”“Peace in heaven and glory in the highest!”

 

[Justcrazy]

Why does it matter what I believe or not believe in?

It matters because if you are a Christian, Vedas or Quran or Guru Granth is NOT an authority over you. I cannot give examples from those books to prove something.

 

[Justcrazy]

lol hahah..

See the bigotry?

He is critical of Hadeeth collection, despite they have chains right through to the prophet, On top of that each Hadeeth scholars wrote books regarding the narrators, putting in information about place of birth , death year , what kind of person he / she was etc etc . This helped in determining the authenticity of the narrations.

On the other hand can he trace back the gospels of Luke , John , Matthew etc with proper chains? He still will vouch for their authenticity.

There are thousands of Muslims in each country who have memorized the Quran in the original Language of revelation how many Christians have you seen who have memorized Bible in Aramaic?

Even in the first chapter of the Bible Genesis, there are such mistakes, that all the Christian Schools are teaching things that contradict the genesis daily.

He claimed Jesus is very peaceful and very close to God.


Above in Post 62 I gave reference from Luke

I give another one

Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword.


Mathew 10:34

If anyone has doubts read the context as well.
[MENTION=154070]guna[/MENTION]

 

[guna]

He tried to prove to me that in Bible it is written Jesus is divine, he could not do that.
If he disagrees I am ready for a discussion on the issue of the divinity of Jesus.

I do not know any Muslim who believes Jesus or any prophet is divine in nature.

I have already proven to you from New Testament and Gospels. If you missed that, read below when you have time. It is up to you whether to believe or not. But your claim that Jesus was not mentioned is bogus.

<spoiler>
There are a number of direct statements in the New Testament concerning the Deity of Christ.

1. The Testimony Of The Four Gospels
The gospels make the following statement about Jesus.

Jesus Was In The Beginning With God
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God (John 1:1).

This statement is clear. Jesus Christ was in the beginning with God because He was God. The imperfect tense of the verb stresses the fact that Jesus continually existed. As far back as one goes in time Jesus Christ is already there.

He Is God The One And Only

No one has ever seen God, but God the one and only, who is at the Father's side, has made him known (John 1:18).

Here Jesus is called God the one and only.

Jesus Is Equal With God

For this reason the Jews tried all the harder to kill him; not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God (John 5:18).

The Jews wanted to kill Jesus because they understood He was claiming equality with God.

Jesus Existed Before Abraham

Although Jesus was born as a babe in Bethlehem He claimed to have existed two thousand years earlier.

"I tell you the truth," Jesus answered, "before Abraham was born, I am!" (John 8:58).

While angels existed before Abraham Jesus never claimed to be a mere angel. Thomas' Confession Of Jesus
Jesus made Himself equal with God.

Thomas said to him, "My Lord and my God!" (John 20:28).

Thomas confessed to Jesus' Deity. Jesus did not rebuke Him for this. To the contrary He said.

Jesus said to him, "Have you believed because you have seen me? Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have come to believe" (John 20:29).

2. The Testimony Of The Book Of Acts

In the Book of Acts, written by Luke, we have a direct statement about Christ's Deity.

The Blood Of God

The Bible speaks of the blood of God.

Keep watch over yourselves and all the flock of which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers. Be shepherds of the church of God, which he bought with his own blood (Acts 20:28).

It was the blood of Jesus Christ that paid the penalty for sin. Yet here it says that the church was bought with the blood of God. Consequently it is saying that Jesus Christ is God.

3. The Writings Of Paul

The apostle Paul made a number of statements about Jesus Deity.

Jesus Is God Over All

Paul said that Jesus was God over all.

Theirs are the patriarchs, and from them is traced the human ancestry of Christ, who is God over all, forever praised! Amen (Romans 9:5).

Jesus Is Yahweh (Lord)

He wrote to the Romans that Jesus is Lord.

That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead you will be saved (Romans 10:9,10).

A person needs to confess Jesus as the Lord - that is Yahweh or Jehovah, the divine name for God.

Jesus Has The Same Nature As God
Jesus Christ has the same nature as the one, true God. Paul wrote.

Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus: who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped (Philippians 2:5,6).

He Is The Visible Image Of The Invisible God

Jesus is the image of the invisible God. He is pre-eminent over all creation. In addition, He is before all things. This stresses His eternal existence.

He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him. He is before all things, and in him all things hold together (Colossians 1:15-17).

Jesus Has All The Fullness Of Deity

All the fullness of Deity is in Jesus.

For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form (Colossians 2:9).

Jesus Is The Great God And Savior
Jesus is the great God and Savior. Paul wrote.

While we wait for the blessed hope - the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ (Titus 2:13).

Christ is the great God and Savior. The verse is not speaking of the appearing of two distinct persons the great God and the Savior rather it speaks of the appearing of one person - Jesus, the great God and Savior.

It Is Beyond All Doubt In Original Greek

This is clear beyond any doubt in the original Greek. There is a rule in Greek grammar known as the Granville-Sharp rule. It can be simply stated as follows: when two nouns are joined by the word "and" (kai in Greek) and the first noun has the article in front of it, and the second does not, both nouns refer to the same thing. In Titus 2:13 we have this type of construction. The first noun "God" has the article in front of it. The second noun "Savior" does not. They are joined together by the word "and." Therefore the great God and Savior are the same person - Jesus Christ. There is no getting around this grammatical rule.

4. The Testimony Of The Book Of Hebrews
The writer to the Hebrews accepted the Deity of Christ.

Jesus Is Addressed As God
But about the Son he says, "Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever, and righteousness will be the scepter of your kingdom" (Hebrews 1:8).

The Son is directly called God. The Father says that His throne will last forever and ever.

5. Peter
Peter, one of Jesus own disciples, confessed to His Deity.

Jesus Is Both God And Savior

Simon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, to those who through the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ have received a faith as precious as ours (2 Peter 1:1).

Jesus is both God and Savior. This Greek construction is another example of the Granville-Sharp rule. God and Savior speak of the same Person - Jesus.

6. John

From the First letter of John we have another statement about the Deity of Christ.

Jesus Is The One True God
John wrote.

We know also that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding, so that we may know him who is true. And we are in him who is true - even in his Son Jesus Christ. He is the true God and eternal life (1 John 5:20).

According to John, Jesus is the one true God.

Summary

As we survey the New Testament we find direct statements about the Deity of Christ from five different New Testament writers. John, Luke, Paul, the writer to the Hebrews, and Peter. They all testified directly that Jesus Christ was more than a mere human being - He was God almighty.

Jesus is acknowledged as being God in the beginning, He is called the one and only God. Jesus also claimed equality with God. Thomas worshipped Him as God. While the Bible says that Jesus' blood paid the penalty for sin it also says that the blood of God bought the church. Paul said that all of the fulness of God resided in Jesus. Both Peter and Paul say that Jesus is the great God and Savior. John says that He is the one, true God. Jesus is directly addressed as God in the Book of Hebrews.

It is clear that the writers of the New Testament believed that Jesus was God Himself.

</spoiler>

 

[guna]

He is critical of Hadeeth collection, despite they have chains right through to the prophet, On top of that each Hadeeth scholars wrote books regarding the narrators, putting in information about place of birth , death year , what kind of person he / she was etc etc . This helped in determining the authenticity of the narrations.

On the other hand can he trace back the gospels of Luke , John , Matthew etc with proper chains? He still will vouch for their authenticity.

There are thousands of Muslims in each country who have memorized the Quran in the original Language of revelation how many Christians have you seen who have memorized Bible in Aramaic?

Even in the first chapter of the Bible Genesis, there are such mistakes, that all the Christian Schools are teaching things that contradict the genesis daily.

He claimed Jesus is very peaceful and very close to God.


Above in Post 62 I gave reference from Luke

I give another one

Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword.


Mathew 10:34

If anyone has doubts read the context as well.
[MENTION=154070]guna[/MENTION]

Hadiths were written by people who never lived in Arabia and they were in fact from places so far that it is not worth debating. Also, Hadiths were written 200 years after Prophet's death. Not one contemporary. All based on Chinese whispers. No one ever saw actually Prophet saying all the things that are mentioned in Sahih Hadiths.

Gospels were written by people who lived during the time of Jesus and saw Jesus perform all the miracles.

 

[Justcrazy]

Hadiths were written by people who never lived in Arabia and they were in fact from places so far that it is not worth debating. Also, Hadiths were written 200 years after Prophet's death. Not one contemporary. All based on Chinese whispers. No one ever saw actually Prophet saying all the things that are mentioned in Sahih Hadiths.

Gospels were written by people who lived during the time of Jesus and saw Jesus perform all the miracles.

Firstly, Hadeeth has a chain of narration that dates back to the prophet, each person mentioned in the chain, we have an accurate record of that , if there is someone who cannot be accounted of, it is called Majhool ( Unknown ) and such a hadeeth is rejected immediately. It is NOT a fluke


Gospels were written by people who lived during the time of Jesus and saw Jesus perform all the miracles.


I would like to have a talk on that point you have made. So you believe that Bible was written by Humans , and not divine in nature or inspired ?

 

[wajid]

Imam Bukhari himself spent his life collecting Hadiths and only keeping the ones with proper chain of narration. A rational explanation is like mental gymnastics to make something look palatable.

What do you mean? That rational explanation is impossible? Your own quote clearly suggests that rationally accounting for authenticity of chain of narration is not only possible but has been done by muhadditheen over centuries.

And if you are referring to content not chain of narration, then even then muhadditheen has developed usool and standards for that.

 

[Justcrazy]

I have already proven to you from New Testament and Gospels. If you missed that, read below when you have time. It is up to you whether to believe or not. But your claim that Jesus was not mentioned is bogus.

<spoiler>
There are a number of direct statements in the New Testament concerning the Deity of Christ.

1. The Testimony Of The Four Gospels
The gospels make the following statement about Jesus.

Jesus Was In The Beginning With God
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God (John 1:1).

This statement is clear. Jesus Christ was in the beginning with God because He was God. The imperfect tense of the verb stresses the fact that Jesus continually existed. As far back as one goes in time Jesus Christ is already there.

He Is God The One And Only

No one has ever seen God, but God the one and only, who is at the Father's side, has made him known (John 1:18).

Here Jesus is called God the one and only.

Jesus Is Equal With God

For this reason the Jews tried all the harder to kill him; not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God (John 5:18).

The Jews wanted to kill Jesus because they understood He was claiming equality with God.

Jesus Existed Before Abraham

Although Jesus was born as a babe in Bethlehem He claimed to have existed two thousand years earlier.

"I tell you the truth," Jesus answered, "before Abraham was born, I am!" (John 8:58).

While angels existed before Abraham Jesus never claimed to be a mere angel. Thomas' Confession Of Jesus
Jesus made Himself equal with God.

Thomas said to him, "My Lord and my God!" (John 20:28).

Thomas confessed to Jesus' Deity. Jesus did not rebuke Him for this. To the contrary He said.

Jesus said to him, "Have you believed because you have seen me? Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have come to believe" (John 20:29).

2. The Testimony Of The Book Of Acts

In the Book of Acts, written by Luke, we have a direct statement about Christ's Deity.

The Blood Of God

The Bible speaks of the blood of God.

Keep watch over yourselves and all the flock of which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers. Be shepherds of the church of God, which he bought with his own blood (Acts 20:28).

It was the blood of Jesus Christ that paid the penalty for sin. Yet here it says that the church was bought with the blood of God. Consequently it is saying that Jesus Christ is God.

3. The Writings Of Paul

The apostle Paul made a number of statements about Jesus Deity.

Jesus Is God Over All

Paul said that Jesus was God over all.

Theirs are the patriarchs, and from them is traced the human ancestry of Christ, who is God over all, forever praised! Amen (Romans 9:5).

Jesus Is Yahweh (Lord)

He wrote to the Romans that Jesus is Lord.

That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead you will be saved (Romans 10:9,10).

A person needs to confess Jesus as the Lord - that is Yahweh or Jehovah, the divine name for God.

Jesus Has The Same Nature As God
Jesus Christ has the same nature as the one, true God. Paul wrote.

Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus: who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped (Philippians 2:5,6).

He Is The Visible Image Of The Invisible God

Jesus is the image of the invisible God. He is pre-eminent over all creation. In addition, He is before all things. This stresses His eternal existence.

He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him. He is before all things, and in him all things hold together (Colossians 1:15-17).

Jesus Has All The Fullness Of Deity

All the fullness of Deity is in Jesus.

For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form (Colossians 2:9).

Jesus Is The Great God And Savior
Jesus is the great God and Savior. Paul wrote.

While we wait for the blessed hope - the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ (Titus 2:13).

Christ is the great God and Savior. The verse is not speaking of the appearing of two distinct persons the great God and the Savior rather it speaks of the appearing of one person - Jesus, the great God and Savior.

It Is Beyond All Doubt In Original Greek

This is clear beyond any doubt in the original Greek. There is a rule in Greek grammar known as the Granville-Sharp rule. It can be simply stated as follows: when two nouns are joined by the word "and" (kai in Greek) and the first noun has the article in front of it, and the second does not, both nouns refer to the same thing. In Titus 2:13 we have this type of construction. The first noun "God" has the article in front of it. The second noun "Savior" does not. They are joined together by the word "and." Therefore the great God and Savior are the same person - Jesus Christ. There is no getting around this grammatical rule.

4. The Testimony Of The Book Of Hebrews
The writer to the Hebrews accepted the Deity of Christ.

Jesus Is Addressed As God
But about the Son he says, "Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever, and righteousness will be the scepter of your kingdom" (Hebrews 1:8).

The Son is directly called God. The Father says that His throne will last forever and ever.

5. Peter
Peter, one of Jesus own disciples, confessed to His Deity.

Jesus Is Both God And Savior

Simon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, to those who through the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ have received a faith as precious as ours (2 Peter 1:1).

Jesus is both God and Savior. This Greek construction is another example of the Granville-Sharp rule. God and Savior speak of the same Person - Jesus.

6. John

From the First letter of John we have another statement about the Deity of Christ.

Jesus Is The One True God
John wrote.

We know also that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding, so that we may know him who is true. And we are in him who is true - even in his Son Jesus Christ. He is the true God and eternal life (1 John 5:20).

According to John, Jesus is the one true God.

Summary

As we survey the New Testament we find direct statements about the Deity of Christ from five different New Testament writers. John, Luke, Paul, the writer to the Hebrews, and Peter. They all testified directly that Jesus Christ was more than a mere human being - He was God almighty.

Jesus is acknowledged as being God in the beginning, He is called the one and only God. Jesus also claimed equality with God. Thomas worshipped Him as God. While the Bible says that Jesus' blood paid the penalty for sin it also says that the blood of God bought the church. Paul said that all of the fulness of God resided in Jesus. Both Peter and Paul say that Jesus is the great God and Savior. John says that He is the one, true God. Jesus is directly addressed as God in the Book of Hebrews.

It is clear that the writers of the New Testament believed that Jesus was God Himself.

</spoiler>

If I want to answer all your quotes, it would take 10 pages.

What you can do is that we talk about one thing at a time. It's better for everyone. So, pick up any quote you would like to put forward in support of your argument that Jesus claimed to be God or divinity.