Islam and Shirk

[wajid]

Hadiths were written by people who never lived in Arabia and they were in fact from places so far that it is not worth debating. Also, Hadiths were written 200 years after Prophet's death. Not one contemporary. All based on Chinese whispers. No one ever saw actually Prophet saying all the things that are mentioned in Sahih Hadiths.

Gospels were written by people who lived during the time of Jesus and saw Jesus perform all the miracles.

Seems like your problem is with oral tradition/transmission. Also, it is false that hadith was not written until 200 years. At 200 years scholars just complied it and developed usool. Written hadith is found right from the start especially with development of Seerah. Seerah was developed and compiled even before hadith by earliest generations. Fiqh even has hadith as a fundamental source of knowledge after Quran. Also, we know that oral transmission of hadith was a phenomenon to learn deen in the time even first generation.

By the way, are you not a Muslim? Not that it matters in this argument but it just lets us understand better that where are u coming from?

 

[guna]

Seems like your problem is with oral tradition/transmission. Also, it is false that hadith was not written until 200 years. At 200 years scholars just complied it and developed usool. Written hadith is found right from the start especially with development of Seerah. Seerah was developed and compiled even before hadith by earliest generations. Fiqh even has hadith as a fundamental source of knowledge after Quran. Also, we know that oral transmission of hadith was a phenomenon to learn deen in the time even first generation.

By the way, are you not a Muslim? Not that it matters in this argument but it just lets us understand better that where are u coming from?

Prove it man. You are trying to rewrite history here. Show me evidence that Hadiths were written during the time of Prophet or even during the Sahabas time. In fact Prophet Muhammed clearly instructed his followers not to write Hadith as he believed Holy Quran was enough to guide people.

I cannot reveal my personal journey and how I know what I know or don't know.

 

[Justcrazy]

Prove it man. You are trying to rewrite history here. Show me evidence that Hadiths were written during the time of Prophet or even during the Sahabas time. In fact Prophet Muhammed clearly instructed his followers not to write Hadith as he believed Holy Quran was enough to guide people.

I cannot reveal my personal journey and how I know what I know or don't know.

That is wrong, such hadeeth which you are in the early part where people were mixing Quran with hadeeth.


But the problem is that even if you believe it , that itself comes from a hadeeth! )

 

[guna]

That is wrong, such hadeeth which you are in the early part where people were mixing Quran with hadeeth.


But the problem is that even if you believe it , that itself comes from a hadeeth! )

That is why Hadeeth are not reliable. For Sunni Muslims, Hadith must be accepted if they are Sahih. But Sunni Muslims themselves do not trust Sahih Hadiths. I do not blame them. They were written 200 years after Prophet's time by people who lived thousands of miles away.

 

[Justcrazy]

That is why Hadeeth are not reliable. For Sunni Muslims, Hadith must be accepted if they are Sahih. But Sunni Muslims themselves do not trust Sahih Hadiths. I do not blame them. They were written 200 years after the Prophet's time by people who lived thousands of miles away.

Who told you sunni Muslims do not trust hadeeth? You are making an argument against it So the answer was for you.

 

[guna]

Who told you sunni Muslims do not trust hadeeth? You are making an argument against it So the answer was for you.

So do you trust all of Sahih Hadeeth?

 

[wajid]

Prove it man. You are trying to rewrite history here. Show me evidence that Hadiths were written during the time of Prophet or even during the Sahabas time. In fact Prophet Muhammed clearly instructed his followers not to write Hadith as he believed Holy Quran was enough to guide people.

I cannot reveal my personal journey and how I know what I know or don't know.

What do you mean by prove to me?

1. See any history of origins of hadith and they will tell you this. Infact just google it.

2. If you want me to present manuscripts with carbon dating confirmation then I can’t as most original manuscripts are not available/lost.

3. That’s why I gave you supporting evidence from Seerah and fiqh. Both are based on oral tradition of hadith and were compiled before Imam Malik’s Mota or other books.

4. Compilation of Seerah and hadith is infact synonymous. The only difference is that for Seerah we don’t have usool and such focus on authenticity of chain of narration. But Seerah compilation pre dates hadith compilation.

5. And in fiqh way before any compilation of hadith, the two major school of thoughts were “Ahl al Hadith” and “ Ahl Al Raee”. This was based on oral tradition and thus proves an existing and thriving oral tradition of hadith and authenticates later compilation as well. So much so that Imam Abu Hanifa like that if you find a hadith against my opinion then throw my opinion on the wall.

6. Where you get this idea that sunni Islam doesn’t adhere to hadith?? Leave the sahih, even hasan and akhbar e aahad are considered source by many. Though if you believe that every hadith in Sahih Bukhari is of same level then you clearly have no idea about usool and classification of hadith. Scholars differ on status and classification as per usool and this is well documented throughout history.

 

[wajid]

That is why Hadeeth are not reliable. For Sunni Muslims, Hadith must be accepted if they are Sahih. But Sunni Muslims themselves do not trust Sahih Hadiths. I do not blame them. They were written 200 years after Prophet's time by people who lived thousands of miles away.

Another clarification that please read at least biography of Imam bhukhari atleast before such bold comments. And please see that where he was when writing his famous book!!
Do you think he was doing all this in Bukhara??

 

[guna]

Another clarification that please read at least biography of Imam bhukhari atleast before such bold comments. And please see that where he was when writing his famous book!!
Do you think he was doing all this in Bukhara??

Imam Bukhari traveled through Hejaz area, Iraq, Levant and collected his Hadiths. But he got all his information 200 years after the death of the Prophet. I would like to believe that the Hadiths are all correct.
Do you believe in all of the Bukhari Sahih Hadiths?

 

[pillionrider]

Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword.

Sweet lord, what's going on in this thread.

Jesus with a sword? Never come across that imagery before

Can any Christian here please confirm if this is true. Googling gave too many verbose links explaining the quote.

Please allow me to meanwhile interject on the topic of the divinity of Jesus. According to Paramahansa Yogananda, Jesus was a master-yogi who now exists in some form of light in the Himalayas. Not sure whether a Christian would take that as an insult or compliment....

 

[Justcrazy]

Sweet lord, what's going on in this thread.

Jesus with a sword? Never come across that imagery before

Can any Christian here please confirm if this is true. Googling gave too many verbose links explaining the quote.

Please allow me to meanwhile interject on the topic of the divinity of Jesus. According to Paramahansa Yogananda, Jesus was a master-yogi who now exists in some form of light in the Himalayas. Not sure whether a Christian would take that as an insult or compliment....

Read any Bible Matthew 10 : 34 .

You can read the context as well.

There is Nothing in Bible that says Jesus was divine , yes he did miracles but miracles are proved from others as well.

 

[pillionrider]

Read any Bible Matthew 10 : 34 .

You can read the context as well.

There is Nothing in Bible that says Jesus was divine , yes he did miracles but miracles are proved from others as well.

Think I'll pass on that.

Though it begs the question why he is worshiped by his followers if they don't consider him divine.

 

[Hasan]

Sorry for delayed reply but owing to work I have not been able to post sooner.

But picking up on some of the topics that have been raised.

Firstly, the Quran and Islam was completed within the life time of the Prophet. Nothing can be added or removed:

“Today I have perfected your faith for you, completed My favour upon you, and chosen Islam as your way” (Quran 5: 3)

Allah also notes that there is no contradiction in the Quran:

“Then do they not reflect upon the Qur'an? If it had been from [any] other than Allah , they would have found within it much contradiction” Quran 4:82.

Quran has various verses in relation to the act of prostration.

prostration as worship to Allah
“And to Allah prostrates whoever is within the heavens and the earth, willingly or by compulsion, and their shadows [as well] in the mornings and the afternoons” Quran 13.15

Prostration as reverence to a man of Allah
“ And when We said to the angels: Prostrate before Adam, they did prostrate, but Iblis (did it not). He refused and he was proud, and he was one of the unbelievers”. Quran 2-34.

“And he (Prophet Yousuf) raised his parents upon the throne, and they bowed to him in prostration” Quran 12-100.

Now if you believe in the Quran as perfect and non-contradictory, simple text logic will suggest that there are different forms of prostrations. One is to Allah which is to submit completely to his supremacy as the creator of all things. The other type of prostration is to acknowledge the rank and station of a person that has been elevated to such a level that Allah himself orders prostration to him/her in reverence.

The two forms of prostration do not conflict with each other as it is the intent with which you perform the prostration. Intent is the the overriding factor and this can be proven by applying a simple test.

When you stand in Makka and offer your prayer, are you worshiping a man made structure of rock and cement or is your intention that you are worshiping Allah who has mandated that in his worship you face the Kabba. If you worship the Kabba then that is shirk but if you worship Allah but following his instructions by bowing to the rocks and cement used to construct the kabba that is correct worship.

So when you see a lover of the prophet and his blessed family wishing to touch, kiss or be close to the grave and shrines of this selected people of Allah, we are not partaking in worshiping them but expressing our undying love for them. A love which has been made mandatory on all Muslims.

"Say (o Prophet!): ‘No reward do I ask of you for this (conveying the message of Allah) except the love of those near of kin.’" Quran 42-23

An authentic Hadith from the Prophet..

"Indeed, I am leaving among you, that which if you hold fast to them, you shall not be misguided after me. One of them is greater than the other: The Book of Allah is a rope extended from the sky to the earth, and my family - the people of my house - and they shall not split until they meet at the Hawd al-Kawthar; so look at how you deal with them after me." [Tirmidhi, Manaqib 77, (3790).]

 

[wajid]

Imam Bukhari traveled through Hejaz area, Iraq, Levant and collected his Hadiths. But he got all his information 200 years after the death of the Prophet. I would like to believe that the Hadiths are all correct.
Do you believe in all of the Bukhari Sahih Hadiths?

Wrong question. For believing we have imaan e mufassal etc

For this hadith book you can ask that whether I think all hadith in the book are sahih? Then I think they are sahih by Imam Bukhari’s criterion. Also, they have sahih chain of narration, but for complete sehat they need to meet more criteria.

So basically different muhaditheen have different criteria of sahih and mostly we discuss authencity of chain of narration and not the content itself for which extra conditions need to be met.

The status of Bukhari is due to the fact that Imam Bukhari’s criteria for authenticity of chain of narration has been very much applauded and rated throughout history by scholars. But does this mean that no one ever had different research and opinion? Then the answer is no. It is an active area of research and we had big scholars like shaikh albani and shaikh Zubair Ali zai even in 20th century.

So Bukhari is by and large very reliable but Muslims don’t “believe “ in it and many scholars might differ from Imam Bukhari in their usool and in their verdicts for specific hadiths.

 

[guna]

Wrong question. For believing we have imaan e mufassal etc

For this hadith book you can ask that whether I think all hadith in the book are sahih? Then I think they are sahih by Imam Bukhari’s criterion. Also, they have sahih chain of narration, but for complete sehat they need to meet more criteria.

So basically different muhaditheen have different criteria of sahih and mostly we discuss authencity of chain of narration and not the content itself for which extra conditions need to be met.

The status of Bukhari is due to the fact that Imam Bukhari’s criteria for authenticity of chain of narration has been very much applauded and rated throughout history by scholars. But does this mean that no one ever had different research and opinion? Then the answer is no. It is an active area of research and we had big scholars like shaikh albani and shaikh Zubair Ali zai even in 20th century.

So Bukhari is by and large very reliable but Muslims don’t “believe “ in it and many scholars might differ from Imam Bukhari in their usool and in their verdicts for specific hadiths.

If everyone has their own interpretation and opinion on Bukhari Hadiths, then it means it is not trustworthy.

You can never follow the Sunnah of Prophet if everyone has their opinion. I would like to discuss some sahih Hadiths from Bukhari with people who trust it. I have tried discussing it online in some chat rooms before and no one seems to believe in Hadiths.

If Bukhari Hadiths are Imam Bukhari‘s own opinion, then it loses credibility.

 

[wajid]

If everyone has their own interpretation and opinion on Bukhari Hadiths, then it means it is not trustworthy.

You can never follow the Sunnah of Prophet if everyone has their opinion. I would like to discuss some sahih Hadiths from Bukhari with people who trust it. I have tried discussing it online in some chat rooms before and no one seems to believe in Hadiths.

If Bukhari Hadiths are Imam Bukhari‘s own opinion, then it loses credibility.

I didn’t say everyone has their own opinion. I said scholars differ in their usool and standards and by the way the same is true for Quran as well. Doesn’t mean Quran or Hadith is not trustworthy. This is purely your interpretation which is honestly against any logic.

And AlhamduliLLAH scholars believe this to be a great strength of Islamic intellectual tradition where interpretation is not solely fixed by a central authority like Pope. Infact same is true with every constitution as well.

For example, post federalist papers, bill of rights and US constitution we still have all kinds of school of thoughts that interpret it in different ways like textualists etc. It has strengthened American legal tradition by making it more resilient.

Same is true for Islamic texts like Quran and hadith where in certain aspects it is permissible to hold different opinions and we know that such differences existed even among companions ( may Allah be pleased with them).

 

[Hasan]

No one says honouring great personalities is a shirk, but associating divine powers with them is a shirk.

Agreed all authority and power resides with Allah. It is him we worship and it is he do we ask for help. In his wisdom he has told us to find him by following the path of those upon whom he has bestowed his favours and not those who have earned his wrath.

Those upon whom he has bestowed his favour are a means to strengthening our connection with Allah. By having love for them, following their example and trying to achieving physical and spiritual proximity we actually become closer to Allah.

It is through these beings that Allah transmitted his message and it is through these individuals that Allah outlines the path to him.

When we are at their graves and shrines we are not substituting them for Allah by worshiping them but rather we are seeking closeness to Allah through honouring those upon whom Allah has bestowed his favours.

And there is no one greater than Prophet Mohammad and his blessed family.

 

[Justcrazy]

Agreed all authority and power resides with Allah. It is him we worship and it is he do we ask for help. In his wisdom he has told us to find him by following the path of those upon whom he has bestowed his favours and not those who have earned his wrath.

Those upon whom he has bestowed his favour are a means to strengthening our connection with Allah. By having love for them, following their example and trying to achieving physical and spiritual proximity we actually become closer to Allah.

It is through these beings that Allah transmitted his message and it is through these individuals that Allah outlines the path to him.

When we are at their graves and shrines we are not substituting them for Allah by worshiping them but rather we are seeking closeness to Allah through honouring those upon whom Allah has bestowed his favours.

And there is no one greater than Prophet Mohammad and his blessed family.

Loving Muhammad SAW and His family is Obligatory , I know some sunnis have been influenced by anti - shia sources in society and try to dilute this , but it is well documented and I can prove from authentic sources that loving ahle bayat is OBLIGATORY.

BUT

We cannot mix love with associating divinity with them. In fact, we cannot give attributes of Allah swt with anyone, even prophets. All are created beings, Allah is the creator. This is a huge difference.

Attributes like Only Allah swt gives life and death, only Allah swt has complete and perfect knowledge of everything, only Allah swt in the owner of the day of judgment, Only Allah is the helper, Only Allah swt is the one we should make dua to etc.

 

[Justcrazy]

Think I'll pass on that.

Though it begs the question why he is worshiped by his followers if they don't consider him divine.

They worship Jesus, because they consider him divine, they believe in Trinity , a word that does not exist in the bible.

I explicitly said before in this forum in different threads , that Jesus never claimed divinity nor did he say he is GOD. I asked mr [MENTION=154070]guna[/MENTION] to have a discussion

He posted 10 - 12 verses from the bible in response.

In post 80 I asked him to discuss one point at a time , I will respond to them. No response till now.

You can read them , probably those are their best verses to somehow claim the divinity of Jesus

If you have doubts on any one of them , I will respond , but only condition is that it should be one point at a time , someone cannot just put 10 quotes and expect me to respond to them all. It will be too big and messy.

 

[Hasan]

Loving Muhammad SAW and His family is Obligatory , I know some sunnis have been influenced by anti - shia sources in society and try to dilute this , but it is well documented and I can prove from authentic sources that loving ahle bayat is OBLIGATORY.

BUT

We cannot mix love with associating divinity with them. In fact, we cannot give attributes of Allah swt with anyone, even prophets. All are created beings, Allah is the creator. This is a huge difference.

Attributes like Only Allah swt gives life and death, only Allah swt has complete and perfect knowledge of everything, only Allah swt in the owner of the day of judgment, Only Allah is the helper, Only Allah swt is the one we should make dua to etc.

Agreed, anyone who associates divinity with the created is committing a great sin. These people of Allah are the blessings of Allah and a great favour of Allah to mankind.

Their love is a path to Allah for if your truly love them you will make them your guides to Allah.

These people of Allah were raised to such a rank that they became a source of Allah’s favours, and the Quran attests to this fact.

The relics of prophet Moses and Haroon were placed in a box. These relics, because they were associated with these great prophets, become a source of blessing for later generations.

In the same way we Muslims regards the graves and shrines of our Prophet and his family as a source of blessing and source of assurance.

“And their prophet said to them, "Indeed, a sign of his kingship is that the chest will come to you in which is assurance from your Lord and a remnant of what the family of Moses and the family of Aaron had left, carried by the angels. Indeed in that is a sign for you, if you are believers." Quran 2:248

 

[Justcrazy]

Agreed, anyone who associates divinity with the created is committing a great sin. These people of Allah are the blessings of Allah and a great favour of Allah to mankind.

Their love is a path to Allah for if your truly love them you will make them your guides to Allah.

These people of Allah were raised to such a rank that they became a source of Allah’s favours, and the Quran attests to this fact.

The relics of prophet Moses and Haroon were placed in a box. These relics, because they were associated with these great prophets, become a source of blessing for later generations.

In the same way we Muslims regards the graves and shrines of our Prophet and his family as a source of blessing and source of assurance.

“And their prophet said to them, "Indeed, a sign of his kingship is that the chest will come to you in which is assurance from your Lord and a remnant of what the family of Moses and the family of Aaron had left, carried by the angels. Indeed in that is a sign for you, if you are believers." Quran 2:248

Lets come to the point , what is the thing you want the salafis to do , which they consider as wrong ?

I do not think any sane and literate Muslim would say loving or respecting a famous and pious personality is wrong. The question would be who are considered a pious personality. I am sure Abu Bakar or Umar would not be pious personalities according to shias , same way Ahmed Raza Khan would not be respected by the Deobandis and salafis.

 

[guna]

I didn’t say everyone has their own opinion. I said scholars differ in their usool and standards and by the way the same is true for Quran as well. Doesn’t mean Quran or Hadith is not trustworthy. This is purely your interpretation which is honestly against any logic.

And AlhamduliLLAH scholars believe this to be a great strength of Islamic intellectual tradition where interpretation is not solely fixed by a central authority like Pope. Infact same is true with every constitution as well.

For example, post federalist papers, bill of rights and US constitution we still have all kinds of school of thoughts that interpret it in different ways like textualists etc. It has strengthened American legal tradition by making it more resilient.

Same is true for Islamic texts like Quran and hadith where in certain aspects it is permissible to hold different opinions and we know that such differences existed even among companions ( may Allah be pleased with them).

If Schools differ in their usool and standards, then no one can trust the Hadiths. Every bunch has their own interpretation and no one knows exactly what the Hadiths mean.

If I have 100 people in a room and I give them 2 lines to read and I get 50 different opinions on what the lines meant, then the text is not clear.

Islam is not like Eastern religions where you can come up with your own interpretation. If Islam also has 100 different meanings, then it is no different to Hinduism. It is the final word of God and there is only one meaning to what God says. God cannot be ambiguous and does not say words with multiple meanings.

Did Quran tell you that you can hold multiple opinions for its verses? Quran is the final word of God and it is in clear text and easy to understand according to Quran itself.

So which interpretation of Quran is correct?

 

[Hasan]

Lets come to the point , what is the thing you want the salafis to do , which they consider as wrong ?

I do not think any sane and literate Muslim would say loving or respecting a famous and pious personality is wrong. The question would be who are considered a pious personality. I am sure Abu Bakar or Umar would not be pious personalities according to shias , same way Ahmed Raza Khan would not be respected by the Deobandis and salafis.

As I said right at the start, stop politicising the concept of Shirk by twisting its meaning. When both Shi’a and SUNNI Muslims visit the graves and shrines of these illustrious personality they are worshiping them, but rather only expressing their love and reverence. Worship is predicated on intent, as the examples from the Quran in relation to prostration illustrates.

The destruction of historical sites, shrines and graves is also a great tragedy inflicted on all Muslims. This act of religious and cultural hooliganism must be condemned

As to which individuals you identify that is your personal choice but it is important that we all treat with due respect all such personalities.

 

[Colorblind Genius]

As I said right at the start, stop politicising the concept of Shirk by twisting its meaning. When both Shi’a and SUNNI Muslims visit the graves and shrines of these illustrious personality they are worshiping them, but rather only expressing their love and reverence. Worship is predicated on intent, as the examples from the Quran in relation to prostration illustrates.

The destruction of historical sites, shrines and graves is also a great tragedy inflicted on all Muslims. This act of religious and cultural hooliganism must be condemned

As to which individuals you identify that is your personal choice but it is important that we all treat with due respect all such personalities.

Both shias and Sunnis?

Not sure about Shias but many, many Sunnis also denounce worshipping the graves.
To them, reciting fatiha and praying for the deceased is sufficient. And it should start with visiting the graves of one's parents if they are deceased.

You are posting it as if, ALL Sunnis visit the shrines and indulge into sinful acts.

As I said, Bida'a is like a seed. It grows and grows, and turns into a monster.

Watch the video below.
From what I've heard, this is the sorta stuff that started to happen in the shrines in Saudi.

Is this sunnah?
How are you gonna stop it? Have police guards on duty on the shrines?

For Saudis, the best way to stop it was to erase the shrines to begin with.
There are regular graveyards in Saudi where people can visit and pray for their deceased loves ones. There is no problem in that.

However, in places like Pakistan and Iran, if some people feel that they can express their love with the deceased by visiting shrines and doing this type of sinful stuff, then good for them.

Lots of prostitution and drug trade/use also happens in many of such shrines in Pakistan.

Pay attention to 2:30 and 5:35 for some laughter as well.

 

[Hasan]

It ironic that you have given yourself the tag of “colour blind genius”.

It’s your perspective on life and the intent with which you seek god that defines you. There are those who open the door for respectful dialogue by trying to understand the view point of others and expressing their own opinion with a view to reaching a position of reconciliation at best or at least an agreement to disagree in a respectful manner.

Then there are those who approach religion as a tribal or nationalist mindset. Them and us, right and wrong, good and evil, very binary mind set. There is no door open for discussion or understanding the others view point. There is imposition of your opinion of what others believe, say or do even if the other tries to convince you otherwise. A highly insular and exclusive approach.

One approach creates a healthy and progressive society whilst the other is a regressive and distrustful approach to forming human communities and societies.

You my friend have not tried to take on board anything I have said, not debated any of my arguments or asked no questions to get clarity. All you have done is repeated in various guises the same mantra taught to you. “Grave worship.... bidah this bidah that.... Shi’a Sunni differences.... posting YouTube videos.
It does not take a “genius” to do that!

If that is the path taught to you to reach Allah and obtain his blessing well good luck. But that is not the path of the Prophet of Islam, who was compassionate, listening, understanding, logical and convincing in his approach. That is why he is referred to as Allah’s blessing to all humanity (and not just the Muslims).

If you open your heart you may indeed see the true genius of Allah’s colourful creation.

 

[wajid]

If Schools differ in their usool and standards, then no one can trust the Hadiths. Every bunch has their own interpretation and no one knows exactly what the Hadiths mean.

If I have 100 people in a room and I give them 2 lines to read and I get 50 different opinions on what the lines meant, then the text is not clear.

Islam is not like Eastern religions where you can come up with your own interpretation. If Islam also has 100 different meanings, then it is no different to Hinduism. It is the final word of God and there is only one meaning to what God says. God cannot be ambiguous and does not say words with multiple meanings.

Did Quran tell you that you can hold multiple opinions for its verses? Quran is the final word of God and it is in clear text and easy to understand according to Quran itself.

So which interpretation of Quran is correct?

1. Yes. Quran explicitly declares that it has “mutashabihaat”. And then tells that those with knowledge say that we believe whatever is revealed by Allah.

2. Once again a complete logical fallacy especially considering the fact that same is true for any thought/belief/religion. Does Marxists, capitalists, Christians, Jews, liberals, seculars and any idea really exist with multiple school of thoughts? Answer is yes for everyone. Does this mean that nobody knows anything about these ideas, religions, schools of thoughts? Only an ignorant will make such a claim.

3. This is Puritan thinking which has nothing to do with Islam. There were even a textualist/literalist school of thought called Al Zawahir but even they are not as arrogant as to claim that everyone else except them is Kabila/ignorant. And by the way islam has through its rigorous intellectual tradition means and devices for minimising difference of opinion. For example traditionally we restrict our interpretation among different interpretations of “salf saliheen” or earlier generations or companions ( may Allah be pleased with them). So all four imams and salafis and even some shias abide by this. This means that those differences are valid differences as they can be traced back to earliest generations.

3. Islam has a system where across the board there is no differences in imaniyat, fundamentals etc. In farooaat, there is ample room for scholars to disagree.

4. Honestly this is just very basic info about macro structure of Islamic tradition. If you are interested in this then please read it seriously and in detail. Otherwise snippets of info can not be turned into systematic knowledge here.

 

[Hasan]

Many have attempted (and failed) to sow seeds of doubt in the Quran. They point to the following verses as suggesting contradiction.

“Or have they taken (for worship) Auliya' (guardians, supporters, helpers, protectors, etc.) besides Him? But Allah, He ALONE is the Wali (Protector, etc.). And it is He Who gives life to the dead, and He is Able to do all things”. Quran 42:9

“Verily, your Wali (Protector or Helper) is Allah, His Messenger, and the believers, - those who perform As-Salat and give Zakat, and they bow down (submit themselves with obedience to Allah in prayer)”. Quran 5:55 (a revelation which came when the prophet saw Imam Ali gave his ring to a beggar during salat).

However, there is no contradiction at all. The prophets and people of true faith are not alternatives to Allah but rather agents of Allah on this earth. Their actions and words are owned by Allah himself. The Quran attests to this in Sura Najm:

2. “Your companion (Muhammad ) has neither gone astray nor has erred.

3. Nor does he speak of (his own) desire.

4. It is only an Inspiration that is inspired.

5. He has been taught by one mighty in power”

So what the Prophet says or does is what Allah had intended. One is the creator and the other the created, one does what the other intends (principal and agent relationship but without the conflict of interest).

In the same way, the Prophet has identified Imam Ali as his agent.

“You (Imam Ali) are in the same position with relation to me (Prophet Mohammad) as Harun was in relation to Musa, but with this explicit difference, that there is no prophet after me.“ [Muslim]

“Musa (Moses) said, ‘Lord, lift up my heart and ease my task for me. Untie my tongue, so that they may understand my words, and give me a helper from my family, my brother Harun (Aaron) – augment my strength through him. Let him share my task so that we can glorify You much and remember You often: You are always watching over us.” [Quran 20:25-35]

 

[Free Hit]

Both shias and Sunnis?

Not sure about Shias but many, many Sunnis also denounce worshipping the graves.
To them, reciting fatiha and praying for the deceased is sufficient. And it should start with visiting the graves of one's parents if they are deceased.

You are posting it as if, ALL Sunnis visit the shrines and indulge into sinful acts.

As I said, Bida'a is like a seed. It grows and grows, and turns into a monster.

Watch the video below.
From what I've heard, this is the sorta stuff that started to happen in the shrines in Saudi.

Is this sunnah?
How are you gonna stop it? Have police guards on duty on the shrines?

For Saudis, the best way to stop it was to erase the shrines to begin with.
There are regular graveyards in Saudi where people can visit and pray for their deceased loves ones. There is no problem in that.

However, in places like Pakistan and Iran, if some people feel that they can express their love with the deceased by visiting shrines and doing this type of sinful stuff, then good for them.

Lots of prostitution and drug trade/use also happens in many of such shrines in Pakistan.

Pay attention to 2:30 and 5:35 for some laughter as well.

O please

As i said earlier here that 99.9999999% of muslims are firm in oneness of Allah

The very handful are ignorant jaahil. You must be immature to use that handful to back your argument

Tbh even to these jaahil if you ask a question who do you worship and take your lord as they will say Allah Paak.

 

[The Viper]

There is nothing wrong with paying your respects and praying at graves, but you should be careful. Bowing down is shirk - you bow down to nobody but Allah SWT. As great as the prophet’s were, they were not to be worshipped.

Following the death of the Prophet pbuh, the many tribes of Arabia rebelled against Islam because their contract was not with Islam, but rather the Prophet pbuh. The Muslims were naturally very saddened when they heard about the death of the Prophet. These people could not believe that the Prophet was mortal.

However, Hazrat Abu Bakr reminded everybody that no being was to be worshipped except Allah SWT: “Whoever worships Muhammad (pbuh) should know that Muhammad (pbuh) died. Whoever worships Allah should know that Allah is Hayy (immortal).” This message is important because we should follow the examples of the prophets and sahaba, but we shouldn’t take it as far as worshipping them.

 

[Free Hit]

There is nothing wrong with paying your respects and praying at graves, but you should be careful. Bowing down is shirk - you bow down to nobody but Allah SWT. As great as the prophet’s were, they were not to be worshipped.

Following the death of the Prophet pbuh, the many tribes of Arabia rebelled against Islam because their contract was not with Islam, but rather the Prophet pbuh. The Muslims were naturally very saddened when they heard about the death of the Prophet. These people could not believe that the Prophet was mortal.

However, Hazrat Abu Bakr reminded everybody that no being was to be worshipped except Allah SWT: “Whoever worships Muhammad (pbuh) should know that Muhammad (pbuh) died. Whoever worships Allah should know that Allah is Hayy (immortal).” This message is important because we should follow the examples of the prophets and sahaba, but we shouldn’t take it as far as worshipping them.

Yes the Sahaba kiraam warned people and reminded people to only worship Allah

So did all awliya.

And might be relevant to indo-pak, the leader of all barelvis, Ahmad Raza Khan also warned people to not commit acts which come under shirk at Mazaars.

Hence because of all these reminders by scholars, all muslims dont worship the Prophet or the graves.

If someone alleges that they do then its just for dukaanDaari. I.e wahahabi molvis thrive from labelling Sunnis as qabr-parast. Sab paise ka maamla hai bhai

 

[Hasan]

There is nothing wrong with paying your respects and praying at graves, but you should be careful. Bowing down is shirk - you bow down to nobody but Allah SWT. As great as the prophet’s were, they were not to be worshipped.

Indeed you cannot be a Muslim if you prostrate to anyone other than Allah in worship.

But I would like to hear your opinion on Allah showing Prophet Yousuf a dream where the stars, moon and the sun prostrated themselves to him. And after testing him Allah makes his dream a reality by having another Prophet (Prophet Yaqoob) prostrate before his son (Prophet Yousuf).
Sura Yousuf a unique sura in that it is a chronological narrative of the life, trial and tribulation of Prophet Yousuf. There is no sura of the Quran that is so devoted to one Prophet and his life.

the middle of the Sura is devoted to Prophet Yousuf expounding the concept of tauheed and the oneness of Allah. But by the end of the sura the Hazrat Yaqood is shown prostrating himself before Hazrat Yousuf in order to honour his son’s achievements.

Question : were these prophets wrong in what they did and if so where in the Quran are their actions condemned?

 

[The Viper]

Indeed you cannot be a Muslim if you prostrate to anyone other than Allah in worship.

But I would like to hear your opinion on Allah showing Prophet Yousuf a dream where the stars, moon and the sun prostrated themselves to him. And after testing him Allah makes his dream a reality by having another Prophet (Prophet Yaqoob) prostrate before his son (Prophet Yousuf).
Sura Yousuf a unique sura in that it is a chronological narrative of the life, trial and tribulation of Prophet Yousuf. There is no sura of the Quran that is so devoted to one Prophet and his life.

the middle of the Sura is devoted to Prophet Yousuf expounding the concept of tauheed and the oneness of Allah. But by the end of the sura the Hazrat Yaqood is shown prostrating himself before Hazrat Yousuf in order to honour his son’s achievements.

Question : were these prophets wrong in what they did and if so where in the Quran are their actions condemned?

Well Prophet Yaqoob and the brothers of Yusuf (AS) did honour Yusuf (AS), but they did not do sajdah to him. If they did do sajdah, it was to Allah (SWT). The other possibility is that they did some other form of action as a sign of respect. Either way, they did not do sajdah, so there was nothing wrong with that they did.

 

[Colorblind Genius]

It ironic that you have given yourself the tag of “colour blind genius”.

It’s your perspective on life and the intent with which you seek god that defines you. There are those who open the door for respectful dialogue by trying to understand the view point of others and expressing their own opinion with a view to reaching a position of reconciliation at best or at least an agreement to disagree in a respectful manner.

Then there are those who approach religion as a tribal or nationalist mindset. Them and us, right and wrong, good and evil, very binary mind set. There is no door open for discussion or understanding the others view point. There is imposition of your opinion of what others believe, say or do even if the other tries to convince you otherwise. A highly insular and exclusive approach.

One approach creates a healthy and progressive society whilst the other is a regressive and distrustful approach to forming human communities and societies.

You my friend have not tried to take on board anything I have said, not debated any of my arguments or asked no questions to get clarity. All you have done is repeated in various guises the same mantra taught to you. “Grave worship.... bidah this bidah that.... Shi’a Sunni differences.... posting YouTube videos.
It does not take a “genius” to do that!

If that is the path taught to you to reach Allah and obtain his blessing well good luck. But that is not the path of the Prophet of Islam, who was compassionate, listening, understanding, logical and convincing in his approach. That is why he is referred to as Allah’s blessing to all humanity (and not just the Muslims).

If you open your heart you may indeed see the true genius of Allah’s colourful creation.

Underlined red text above is the key.

Read my post # 26, there is a blue text in there, that you seem to have conveniently ignored, but for me, that's the basic guideline to try to reach to Allah.

You may have a different way to reach Allah, good for you.

What's the problem here?

I keep telling you, each to it's own but you still want to argue, over what? I don't understand.

 

[Justcrazy]

If Schools differ in their usool and standards, then no one can trust the Hadiths. Every bunch has their own interpretation and no one knows exactly what the Hadiths mean.

If I have 100 people in a room and I give them 2 lines to read and I get 50 different opinions on what the lines meant, then the text is not clear.

Islam is not like Eastern religions where you can come up with your own interpretation. If Islam also has 100 different meanings, then it is no different to Hinduism. It is the final word of God and there is only one meaning to what God says. God cannot be ambiguous and does not say words with multiple meanings.

Did Quran tell you that you can hold multiple opinions for its verses? Quran is the final word of God and it is in clear text and easy to understand according to Quran itself.

So which interpretation of Quran is correct?

The fundamentals of Islam no one disputes. And you will be judged according that.

In Surah Ikhlas Allah swt says he is ONE , he is not begotten neither he has begotten anyone.
Has anyone from tafsir said that God is two or three or 10 describing the passage? Take out 100 different Tafsir of Quran , does the meaning conveyed on anyone of them differ?

 

[Justcrazy]

As I said right at the start, stop politicising the concept of Shirk by twisting its meaning. When both Shi’a and SUNNI Muslims visit the graves and shrines of these illustrious personality they are worshiping them, but rather only expressing their love and reverence. Worship is predicated on intent, as the examples from the Quran in relation to prostration illustrates.

The destruction of historical sites, shrines and graves is also a great tragedy inflicted on all Muslims. This act of religious and cultural hooliganism must be condemned

As to which individuals you identify that is your personal choice but it is important that we all treat with due respect all such personalities.

I honestly feel you are making a hypothetical situation here , can you tell me sane person who says respecting personalities is a shirk?

Making graves high is prohibited by both shia and Sunni traditions, Imam Ali himself told to level the graves. Muhammad SAW himself said in his last day , do not make my grave a place of worship.

You also so as practical fact that people are prostrating before graves, they making dua to dead people , it is not hidden , it is very much evident. Dua is worship .

 

[Justcrazy]

Well Prophet Yaqoob and the brothers of Yusuf (AS) did honour Yusuf (AS), but they did not do sajdah to him. If they did do sajdah, it was to Allah (SWT). The other possibility is that they did some other form of action as a sign of respect. Either way, they did not do sajdah, so there was nothing wrong with that they did.

People were allowed to have alcohol earlier, does that make alcohol allowed now as well? Its a lamee argument. The shariah was in the developing phase since Adam AS , and it reaches the pinnacle with Muhammad SAW.

Even Injeel says that Jesus said about coming prophet , that even though I want to say several things , you will not understand, the one after me will make everything clear to you.

That time the sajdah was done out of respect , not worship , but Allah swt knew that people will get confused , and thus HE closed the door permanently by making sajdah prohibited

 

[Colorblind Genius]

People were allowed to have alcohol earlier, does that make alcohol allowed now as well? Its a lamee argument. The shariah was in the developing phase since Adam AS , and it reaches the pinnacle with Muhammad SAW.

Even Injeel says that Jesus said about coming prophet , that even though I want to say several things , you will not understand, the one after me will make everything clear to you.

That time the sajdah was done out of respect , not worship , but Allah swt knew that people will get confused , and thus HE closed the door permanently by making sajdah prohibited

A more logical argument is, we are supposed to follow the ways of OUR prophet. And we will be questioned according to the rules and guidance provided to us by OUR prophet.

God is not going to ask us whether we prostrate in front of anyone to express our love and respect by following the acts of Yaqoob (as).

What we as Muslims need to worry about more are the things like Zakaat, for example.
Have we paid ALL of zakaat that we owed since it became due on us?
How many of us, have gone back all the years and did all the math to double check and make sure that we do not owe a single penny in zakaat before our time is up. This is MORE important than worrying about Yaqoob (as) prostrating to Yousuf.

How many of us did calculations to figure out that if Salah was made mandatory upon, lets say, since age 11, then how many salahs have we missed and not offered the Qaza? Did we make up for all those missed Salahs before our time is up?

How many of us have actually made sure that since our adulthood, have we looked back to see how many times have we lied, and/or did injustice to others. And did we make up for it?

These are the things we need to worry about rather than worrying about going to shrines and get spiritual elevation. But if that what pleases you, then so be it. Do it as you want it.

 

[Hasan]

There is nothing wrong with paying your respects and praying at graves, but you should be careful. Bowing down is shirk - you bow down to nobody but Allah SWT. As great as the prophet’s were, they were not to be worshipped.

Following the death of the Prophet pbuh, the many tribes of Arabia rebelled against Islam because their contract was not with Islam, but rather the Prophet pbuh. The Muslims were naturally very saddened when they heard about the death of the Prophet. These people could not believe that the Prophet was mortal

I would urge you to read the Arabic version and with translations of verses 4 and 100 of sura Yousuf. You will see in verse 4 the term “Sajadeen” which in Urdu is sajada and English prostration has been used for the moon, sun and moon bowing to Prophet Yousuf. And in verse 100 the term used is “sujada” to describe how Hazrat Yaqood honoured his son, Hazrat Yousuf..

Pls refer to this excellent site which has all the verses of the Quran with Arabic and English text and audio version.

https://quran.com/12/85-111?reading=false

Pls do confirm if after reading these verses you deem the dream and actions of Prophet Yousuf and Prophet Yakood as shirk . Pls also let me know why Allah in his wisdom included these events, which are the critical starting and finishing events around which this chapter of the Quran is based.

 

[Hasan]

I honestly feel you are making a hypothetical situation here , can you tell me sane person who says respecting personalities is a shirk?

Making graves high is prohibited by both shia and Sunni traditions, Imam Ali himself told to level the graves. Muhammad SAW himself said in his last day , do not make my grave a place of worship.

You also so as practical fact that people are prostrating before graves, they making dua to dead people , it is not hidden , it is very much evident. Dua is worship .

Firstly I am sorry but again the Quran has contradicted the the notion that Islam prohibits building of graves. And certainly the Prophet and Imam Ali never ordered the destruction of any graves.

The Quran has clearly ruled in favour of building mosques / structures over graves as documented in Surah Kahf.

“And they said: Construct upon them (graves) a building. The second group said – Let us build a mosque on their graves (in the cave) (and thus seek blessings through this act). Quran 18-21

Two simple aspects of dua which you are mixing when you say “dua is worship”. All duas are directed to Allah and a dua can be made by yourself or by someone else. Very simple example, if you ask your mother to make a dua for your succeed this cannot be shirk.

Secondly making a dua at a special time or place makes the dua more effective. I can make a dua whilst walking to work and Allah will answer but if I were to make the same dua after doing wadu, put on a beautiful fragrance, having just offered the fajar salat and at that special time of the morning when the darkness of the night start to give way to the light of the day. I know the manner of my dua will be more special.

So when I stand in proximity of the Prophet and his family, I am asking Allah to grant me my duas by invoking their names. Allah is the giver but the manner of asking becomes more beautiful when I invoke these personalities who are so dearly loved by Allah.

It is not to whom the dua is directed (which is always Allah) but rather the place, circumstance and manner in which that dua is made that makes it different and special.

 

[The Viper]

I would urge you to read the Arabic version and with translations of verses 4 and 100 of sura Yousuf. You will see in verse 4 the term “Sajadeen” which in Urdu is sajada and English prostration has been used for the moon, sun and moon bowing to Prophet Yousuf. And in verse 100 the term used is “sujada” to describe how Hazrat Yaqood honoured his son, Hazrat Yousuf..

Pls refer to this excellent site which has all the verses of the Quran with Arabic and English text and audio version.

https://quran.com/12/85-111?reading=false

Pls do confirm if after reading these verses you deem the dream and actions of Prophet Yousuf and Prophet Yakood as shirk . Pls also let me know why Allah in his wisdom included these events, which are the critical starting and finishing events around which this chapter of the Quran is based.

It was not shirk because the meaning of sujud must be viewed in context. We in the modern age view sujud as the act where the hands, the knees and the forehead touch the ground. However, back then it also literally meant 'bow down.' As I mentioned earlier, the act was simply a small bow of respect, it was not the sajdah that we associate with. Showing respect to kings/rulers by doing a bow was a common practice in medieval times. I am sure it still happens today. So, we must view the meanings in context, we can't always read in our way, we must understand the context.

 

[Justcrazy]

[MENTION=151861]Colorblind Genius[/MENTION] I am just answering the argument that was made. I think its better to stick to the question asked ( Topic ) in the thread.

 

[Hasan]

Question - if salat is the exclusive worship of Allah, why is Darood made a mandatory part of this worship of Allah? Why is this not shirk?

 

[Hasan]

It was not shirk because the meaning of sujud must be viewed in context. We in the modern age view sujud as the act where the hands, the knees and the forehead touch the ground. However, back then it also literally meant 'bow down.' As I mentioned earlier, the act was simply a small bow of respect, it was not the sajdah that we associate with. Showing respect to kings/rulers by doing a bow was a common practice in medieval times. I am sure it still happens today. So, we must view the meanings in context, we can't always read in our way, we must understand the context.

Excellent, I think we agree. It’s all about context and intent. When I am at the graves of the prophet and his family members and I sit with my head bowed in love and reverence for these greatest personalities, I am not worship them or their graves and certainly I am not committing the greatest sin of shirk.

I am glad we have that cleared. That is why the Quran is such a miracle, even after 1400 years it is a shield against the message of Allah being twisted and turned for political purposes. Love of the prophet and his family was not, is not and will not be allowed to be mixed with Shirk.

Quran is our greatest defence!

 

[wajid]

Firstly I am sorry but again the Quran has contradicted the the notion that Islam prohibits building of graves. And certainly the Prophet and Imam Ali never ordered the destruction of any graves.

The Quran has clearly ruled in favour of building mosques / structures over graves as documented in Surah Kahf.

“And they said: Construct upon them (graves) a building. The second group said – Let us build a mosque on their graves (in the cave) (and thus seek blessings through this act). Quran 18-21

Two simple aspects of dua which you are mixing when you say “dua is worship”. All duas are directed to Allah and a dua can be made by yourself or by someone else. Very simple example, if you ask your mother to make a dua for your succeed this cannot be shirk.

Secondly making a dua at a special time or place makes the dua more effective. I can make a dua whilst walking to work and Allah will answer but if I were to make the same dua after doing wadu, put on a beautiful fragrance, having just offered the fajar salat and at that special time of the morning when the darkness of the night start to give way to the light of the day. I know the manner of my dua will be more special.

So when I stand in proximity of the Prophet and his family, I am asking Allah to grant me my duas by invoking their names. Allah is the giver but the manner of asking becomes more beautiful when I invoke these personalities who are so dearly loved by Allah.

It is not to whom the dua is directed (which is always Allah) but rather the place, circumstance and manner in which that dua is made that makes it different and special.

I seriously can’t get you. What you discuss here is nothing new. And it clearly seems like you disregard the the explanation of Quran in hadith. Also, you feel it not necessary to follow the understanding of Sahaba ( May Allah be pleased with them) and instead want to focus on literal meaning of certain verses of Quran while disregarding others.

For this problem, the answer is simple

1. Worship is only for Allah. Giving examples from stories of Bani Israel will not be helpful here as plenty of ahkam has been changed by Allah. He is creator so he can change those ahkam.

2. Wasila is permissible. Though some disagree. I don’t agree with them but it doesn’t mean they have no logic or evidence. They have narrations from companions ( May Allah be pleased with them) as arguments. If you have any regard for companions ( May Allah be pleased with them) and consider them the most pious of this Ummah then at least have some respect for that opinion. That’s why we disagree but do not disrespect their opinion.

3. For me the most senseless way to reason is to quote translation of verses without taking into account the well established commentary and explanation for those by Prophet ( peace be upon Him), the comapanions ( may Allah be pleased with them) and other mufassireen. You can invent a completely new religion,and people have actually done that, if you take only literal meaning of text of Quran. Infact any text in the world can be reinterpreted and misinterpreted this way.

 

[Justcrazy]

Firstly I am sorry but again the Quran has contradicted the the notion that Islam prohibits building of graves. And certainly the Prophet and Imam Ali never ordered the destruction of any graves.

The Quran has clearly ruled in favour of building mosques / structures over graves as documented in Surah Kahf.

“And they said: Construct upon them (graves) a building. The second group said – Let us build a mosque on their graves (in the cave) (and thus seek blessings through this act). Quran 18-21

Two simple aspects of dua which you are mixing when you say “dua is worship”. All duas are directed to Allah and a dua can be made by yourself or by someone else. Very simple example, if you ask your mother to make a dua for your succeed this cannot be shirk.

Secondly making a dua at a special time or place makes the dua more effective. I can make a dua whilst walking to work and Allah will answer but if I were to make the same dua after doing wadu, put on a beautiful fragrance, having just offered the fajar salat and at that special time of the morning when the darkness of the night start to give way to the light of the day. I know the manner of my dua will be more special.

So when I stand in proximity of the Prophet and his family, I am asking Allah to grant me my duas by invoking their names. Allah is the giver but the manner of asking becomes more beautiful when I invoke these personalities who are so dearly loved by Allah.

It is not to whom the dua is directed (which is always Allah) but rather the place, circumstance and manner in which that dua is made that makes it different and special.

Brother , in that hadith I said the prophet said do not make my grave as a place of worship. It means that do not come and worship my graves. He made this dua.

The surah Kafh ayat 21 merely mentions the historical fact , it does not say that such a thing is good or allowed.

I agree you can ask a senior person or pious person to make dua on your behalf , that is NOT shirk. But your mother is alive and thus she is connected with this world. There is a difference between Haqiqi World and Life in Baarzzak. When a person is dead , he is now in Barrzak life .

If I am not mistaken Hadhrat Umar went to ask Hadhrat Abbas dua for them for rain.

Yes , I also agree that place and time can make dua more effective . But those places and times have been mentioned by the prophet . I do not think any shia , sunni , barelvi , salafi would have any doubt that these are matters of Unseen and the prophet has more knowledge in this regard than their scholars.

 

[Hasan]

I seriously can’t get you. What you discuss here is nothing new. And it clearly seems like you disregard the the explanation of Quran in hadith. Also, you feel it not necessary to follow the understanding of Sahaba ( May Allah be pleased with them) and instead want to focus on literal meaning of certain verses of Quran while disregarding others.

For this problem, the answer is simple

1. Worship is only for Allah. Giving examples from stories of Bani Israel will not be helpful here as plenty of ahkam has been changed by Allah. He is creator so he can change those ahkam.

2. Wasila is permissible. Though some disagree. I don’t agree with them but it doesn’t mean they have no logic or evidence. They have narrations from companions ( May Allah be pleased with them) as arguments. If you have any regard for companions ( May Allah be pleased with them) and consider them the most pious of this Ummah then at least have some respect for that opinion. That’s why we disagree but do not disrespect their opinion.

3. For me the most senseless way to reason is to quote translation of verses without taking into account the well established commentary and explanation for those by Prophet ( peace be upon Him), the comapanions ( may Allah be pleased with them) and other mufassireen. You can invent a completely new religion,and people have actually done that, if you take only literal meaning of text of Quran. Infact any text in the world can be reinterpreted and misinterpreted this way.

Let’s deal with this point by point. Pls show me where in the Quran any stories or lessons derived from the events pertaining to Bani Israel have been changed. If Allah establishes a principle in the Quran then it is only logical that he should also declare that principle void or changed within the Quran. What were there akham that have resulted in parts of the Quran being no longer applicable? Please be explicit with your examples.

 

[Hasan]

Brother , in that hadith I said the prophet said do not make my grave as a place of worship. It means that do not come and worship my graves. He made this dua.

The surah Kafh ayat 21 merely mentions the historical fact , it does not say that such a thing is good or allowed.

I agree you can ask a senior person or pious person to make dua on your behalf , that is NOT shirk. But your mother is alive and thus she is connected with this world. There is a difference between Haqiqi World and Life in Baarzzak. When a person is dead , he is now in Barrzak life .

If I am not mistaken Hadhrat Umar went to ask Hadhrat Abbas dua for them for rain.

Yes , I also agree that place and time can make dua more effective . But those places and times have been mentioned by the prophet . I do not think any shia , sunni , barelvi , salafi would have any doubt that these are matters of Unseen and the prophet has more knowledge in this regard than their scholars.

Clearly repetition seems not to be effective but I will try again - Muslims do not worship graves, they honour the personalities to whom those graves belong to. It’s a simple concept, just like the kaba is not worshiped but it’s a special place as Allah has associated it with himself.

As regards the verse from Sura Kafh. Firstly, you or any other Muslim has no authority to cast judgement on the level or degrees of importance placed on different verses of the Quran. You either accept it whole or you reject it whole. The Quran is very clear that there is no doubt or contradiction in any aspect of the Quran. The fact that it is in the Quran is sufficient for it to be important.

I am sorry the position you have taken that it does not say if this was good or not is also an inappropriate position. The Quran clearly states a mosque (place of worship for Allah) was constructed over their graves. If as you contend and as the dubious Hadith you have referred to suggests then a great injustice was committed, a bastion of shirk was built, the graves of people became the place of worship of Allah. Surely, Allah would not have remained indifferent, as you suggest, at such a travesty.

How do you reconcile the position that Allah remains indifferent as a place of worship is built around their graves whereas the Prophet, through whom these verses were revealed, be so concerned. Seems like that the only way you can square your position is by assuming that Allah and the Prophet differed on their position in relation to shirk and graves.

Read again the full translation of the verse...,

“And in this way, We made them known to the people (of the city), so that they realize that Allah’s promise is true, and that there is no doubt about the Hour (the Day of Resurrection). When they were disputing among themselves in their matter, they said, “Erect a building over them. Their Lord knows them best.” Said those who prevailed in their matter, “We will certainly make a mosque over them.”

As for the dead in barzak being discontent from this world, what do you make of the following Hadith....

From the tradition of Ayesha, we got knowledge that whenever the last part of night was approaching, the Holy Prophet (S) would go towards Baqi’ and say:

“Peace be with you! The groups of believers and what has been promised to you will be given to you, soon in future your destiny will reach you. And certainly, we will be the joiners to you soon. And if God wishes, will be with you. O God! Have mercy on all those (buried) in Baqi’ Al-Gharqad. Sahih Muslim

 

[Justcrazy]

Clearly repetition seems not to be effective but I will try again - Muslims do not worship graves, they honour the personalities to whom those graves belong to. It’s a simple concept, just like the kaba is not worshiped but it’s a special place as Allah has associated it with himself.

As regards the verse from Sura Kafh. Firstly, you or any other Muslim has no authority to cast judgement on the level or degrees of importance placed on different verses of the Quran. You either accept it whole or you reject it whole. The Quran is very clear that there is no doubt or contradiction in any aspect of the Quran. The fact that it is in the Quran is sufficient for it to be important.

I am sorry the position you have taken that it does not say if this was good or not is also an inappropriate position. The Quran clearly states a mosque (place of worship for Allah) was constructed over their graves. If as you contend and as the dubious Hadith you have referred to suggests then a great injustice was committed, a bastion of shirk was built, the graves of people became the place of worship of Allah. Surely, Allah would not have remained indifferent, as you suggest, at such a travesty.

How do you reconcile the position that Allah remains indifferent as a place of worship is built around their graves whereas the Prophet, through whom these verses were revealed, be so concerned. Seems like that the only way you can square your position is by assuming that Allah and the Prophet differed on their position in relation to shirk and graves.

Read again the full translation of the verse...,

“And in this way, We made them known to the people (of the city), so that they realize that Allah’s promise is true, and that there is no doubt about the Hour (the Day of Resurrection). When they were disputing among themselves in their matter, they said, “Erect a building over them. Their Lord knows them best.” Said those who prevailed in their matter, “We will certainly make a mosque over them.”

As for the dead in barzak being discontent from this world, what do you make of the following Hadith....

From the tradition of Ayesha, we got knowledge that whenever the last part of night was approaching, the Holy Prophet (S) would go towards Baqi’ and say:

“Peace be with you! The groups of believers and what has been promised to you will be given to you, soon in future your destiny will reach you. And certainly, we will be the joiners to you soon. And if God wishes, will be with you. O God! Have mercy on all those (buried) in Baqi’ Al-Gharqad. Sahih Muslim

Kaba has been ordained as a holy place by Allah swt , who has ordained the graves to be holy place ?

Worshiping graves does not mean worshiping the soil , it means asking the dead people for help. You gave the example of getting some pious person to make dua , but there I pointed out to your fallacy of argument , asking to make dua from dead is wrong . You are comparing two different scenarios. , one person is alive and the other is dead.

I never casted any doubts in the quran, just look into the verse , it merely mentions a historical fact .

I give you example , ask any shia scholar ( in case you do not know ) Mullah Ali Qari a famous Hanafi Theologian wrote that the 12 khalifas were one after the other , he included Muwiyah , Yazeed and Marwan etc in that. Many shias are upset with him. But point to note is that he merely mentioned the people who had administrative power , he never said they were good or right. Mentioning a fact is different from endorsing that.

Hadith says Mosques cannot be build over graves , it can be made adjacent. Notice the difference.

Brother , in sahih hadith we are told to say greetings to the people in the graves , it does not mean that they have direct connection with the world. In case if you think let alone common people , if prophet had direct connection with the world. And this was aqeedah of the companions then there would have been no issues over anything. Apart from that Prophet is making dua for the dead people.

The scholars would have gone to the grave and asked prophet whether we should do Rafa Yadain or not. Ayesha would have asked prophet whether she should go forward with Jamal or not. People should have gone and asked who should be first Khalifa , can you show one single instance after the death of the prophet where he himself interfered with anything in the worldly life ?

 

[wajid]

Let’s deal with this point by point. Pls show me where in the Quran any stories or lessons derived from the events pertaining to Bani Israel have been changed. If Allah establishes a principle in the Quran then it is only logical that he should also declare that principle void or changed within the Quran. What were there akham that have resulted in parts of the Quran being no longer applicable? Please be explicit with your examples.

Why should I? It is blatantly obvious and verified by historical transmission of knowledge that Quran has aayat for Ahkam and then there are Nasaih and stories of past generations. You are conflating then. There is a whole topic of nasikh ( one that cancels) and mansookh ( one that is cancelled) in tafsir.

You just first please clarify that what do you believe about hadith? Do you consider them a source of knowledge in deen? And do you believe that it was status and duty of Prophet ( Peace Be Upon Him) to explain the aayat of Quran?