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Jason Holder | Can he walk into every nations' playing XI?

Another excellent performance leading from the front from Holder - 4 wickets so far.
 
This is the bloke who was decimated for 34 runs in 6 bowl on 18 January' 2015. How far has he come along :salute
 
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Most complete pace bowling all rounder in the world. Stokes has the x factor and is a match winner but holder is more reliable performer.
 
Holder's recent stats are nearly 1980s Imran Khan level. Doesn't get the adulation he deserves being outside the Big 3.
 
Markhor said:
Holder's recent stats are nearly 1980s Imran Khan level. Doesn't get the adulation he deserves being outside the Big 3.
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From BBC cricket

Holder averages 11.80 in his last 10 Tests. No bowler has averaged less than 13 over a 10-Test period since Tony Lock in the 1950s. Other than him the only other bowler since the First World War to have done it is Jim Laker.
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Markhor said:
Holder's recent stats are nearly 1980s Imran Khan level. Doesn't get the adulation he deserves being outside the Big 3.
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Imagine if Holder was an Indian or English player. The amount of hype a non perfomer like Pandya gets in India is ridiculous. :inti
 
And [MENTION=132916]Junaids[/MENTION] - you thought this guy isn’t as good as Faheem Ashraf, less than two years ago....
 
He is "The best" at the moment without a shadow of doubt.Amazing player.He should get more praise for his efforts.
 
Indiafan said:
From BBC cricket
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Extraordinary numbers. Another thing about Holder is that he hardly bowled in the warm-ups, he was carrying an ankle injury going into this tour.

Doesn't seem to be showing in this performance.
 
I remember, just a few years ago, ABDV absolutely mauling Holder. Now he's blossomed into one of the game's best all rounders.
 
Makes a world XI atm:

Agarwal
??
Kohli
Smith
Stokes
De Kock
Jadeja
Holder
Cummins
Lyon
Bumrah

Would be mine, use the all rounders available at the moment. Can have a wicket taking spinner in SENA conditions as well as in Asia
 
therealAB said:
Makes a world XI atm:

Agarwal
??
Kohli
Smith
Stokes
De Kock
Jadeja
Holder
Cummins
Lyon
Bumrah

Would be mine, use the all rounders available at the moment. Can have a wicket taking spinner in SENA conditions as well as in Asia
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Babar and Labuschagne would make a current world xi imo. I would also only play one of Stokes or Holder depending on the conditions (mostly Holder)
 
He has really come on in leaps and bounds as a bowler - as any 6'7 fast-medium guy should be able to.

Good luck to him. It's always nice to see someone improve so much.
 
therealAB said:
What would your team look like?
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Pretty similar except for the changes I mentioned and Southee in for Bumrah. I’m 50/50 with Kohli Babar based on current form but I’ve gone with Babar.

1. Mayank Agarwal
2. Rohit Sharma
3. Marnus Labuschagne
4. Steve Smith
5. Babar Azam
6. Quinton De Kock
7. Jason Holder
8. Ravindra Jadeja
9. Pat Cummins
10. Nathan Lyon
11. Tim Southee

Batting all the way through as Southee bats a teensy bit, with 5 excellent bowling options. In English conditions I will sub Jadeja with Stokes.
 
Thunderbolt14 said:
Pretty similar except for the changes I mentioned and Southee in for Bumrah. I’m 50/50 with Kohli Babar based on current form but I’ve gone with Babar.

1. Mayank Agarwal
2. Rohit Sharma
3. Marnus Labuschagne
4. Steve Smith
5. Babar Azam
6. Quinton De Kock
7. Jason Holder
8. Ravindra Jadeja
9. Pat Cummins
10. Nathan Lyon
11. Tim Southee

Batting all the way through as Southee bats a teensy bit, with 5 excellent bowling options. In English conditions I will sub Jadeja with Stokes.
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Nice team. Fill that Southee is being overrated though. If looking for a swing bowler Anderson is just better, and there are many better all conditions bowlers floating around
 
therealAB said:
Nice team. Fill that Southee is being overrated though. If looking for a swing bowler Anderson is just better, and there are many better all conditions bowlers floating around
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I feel Anderson is nearing his decline. These next two series against WI and Pak will be more indicative
 
Looks like the Holder doubters have been put to bed in this thread. Funny to see people saying he is not as good as Faheem Ashraf or Mitch Marsh and that he doesn’t swing/seam the ball.. :)
 
Junaids said:
I’d take Mitchell Marsh and Faheem Ashraf ahead of him.

A batting average of 30 is too low to be a batting all-rounder (Sobers/Kallis) or a balanced all-rounder (Imran, Kapil Dev, Botham).

It puts you down in Bowling all-rounder territory, with Wasim Akram, Richard Hadlee or Shaun Pollock.

But a bowling all-rounder needs to take more than three wickets per Test.
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No height theory? Theory is right about this one
 
He'd walk into the Pakistan team definitely.

Although some would say he's not phaast enough.
 
If I make a world XI of active players, does Jason Holder find a place??

Warner
Rohit/Latham/Elgar/Mayank
Smith
Kohli
Root
Stokes
Qdk(wkt)
Ashwin/Jadeja
Cummins
Rabada
Anderson/Broad
 
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Ab Fan said:
If I make a world XI of active players, does Jason Holder find a place??

Warner
Rohit/Latham/Elgar/Mayank
Smith
Kohli
Root
Stokes
Qdk(wkt)
Ashwin/Jadeja
Cummins
Rabada
Anderson/Broad
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Is it a test xi with Rohit Sharma opening?
 
He can easily get into any Test Team except England’s maybe because they already have Stokes. Other than that no team in the world has any pace bowling all rounder of similar calibre in tests.
 
Titan24 said:
Is it a test xi with Rohit Sharma opening?
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Yeah, he does. Averages 45 in test cricket and made Rabada look like a Srinath when he came to India last year. Philander looked like Kallis as well.
 
Ab Fan said:
Yeah, he does. Averages 45 in test cricket and made Rabada look like a Srinath when he came to India last year. Philander looked like Kallis as well.
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He was really good but not sure if he makes Test xi after just 6 innings in test matches and that too only at home. If we are taking that small sample size as opener then people can argue that Abid Ali makes it with an avg of 100+ and 2 100s in 4 innings with highest of 174 which would be a wrong argument as well.

Irrespective of Rohit’s career average I dont think sample size of him opening in test cricket is enough to make him opener of world test xi.
 
Why are people saying he doesn't get praise? I have seen loads of praise for him on PP and on social media. He plays for an average team and is not great in LO so it's no surprise he doesn't get hyped to the moon like people want.

A world class test match all rounder without a doubt.
 
Holder has slightly over 2.5 times the total wickets compared to matches he has played. He should look to improve that. I think it is because he was a mediocre bowler for about 2-3 years early on.

But to be precise, Flintoff has about 225 wickets in 75 tests and Cairns has 220 wickets in 60 tests. So, Holder is expected to hit that level as a bowler. That 25 AVG is kinda misleading right now because if he was that good, he would have taken more number of wickets and won more matches for Windies. Good lower order batsmen with 3 hundreds already in 40 tests.

Stokes is better. He is similar to Shakib maybe who is obviously better in ODIs.

Anyone else there to join this trio?? Maybe Ravindra Jadeja!
 
Ab Fan said:
Holder has slightly over 2.5 times the total wickets compared to matches he has played. He should look to improve that. I think it is because he was a mediocre bowler for about 2-3 years early on.

But to be precise, Flintoff has about 225 wickets in 75 tests and Cairns has 220 wickets in 60 tests. So, Holder is expected to hit that level as a bowler. That 25 AVG is kinda misleading right now because if he was that good, he would have taken more number of wickets and won more matches for Windies. Good lower order batsmen with 3 hundreds already in 40 tests.

Stokes is better. He is similar to Shakib maybe who is obviously better in ODIs.

Anyone else there to join this trio?? Maybe Ravindra Jadeja!
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Holder’s SR is 61.7 (should be better after this Test), and economy of 2.56, which is quite acceptable actually. He has bowled an average of 26-27 overs per Test, which is too low means guy never thought of his bowling seriously may be even couple of years back. He was considered as an LO all-rounder and not not enough bowler to be a confirmed Test starter.

I think, in last 2-3 years Holder has focused more on bowling while Stokes on batting. As a pure all-rounder, Holder will give Stokes a really tight fight - might end up as the better all-rounder.
 
Since 2018, Holder has taken almost 5 wickets a test. For most of his career he was the definition of a bits and pieces cricketer, it is only recently that he has become world class
 
Former West Indies batsman Roland Holder does not believe Test cricket captain Jason Holder should be recalled to the T20 squad, despite several recent creditable performances in the format.

The all-rounder last represented the regional team in the shortest format of the game in India last year. Since the resumption of cricket, however, the player has put in a few notable T20 performances. In the Caribbean Premier League (CPL), Holder was the Barbados Tridents' third-highest scorer with 192 runs in 10 matches and had a high score of 69. He also made an impact with the ball after claiming 10 wickets, the second-most on the team.

Despite not being initially drafted to the Indian Premier League (IPL), Holder was called up to replace Mitchell Marsh by Sunrisers Hyderabad. In three matches he has managed to claim six wickets so far. The player has, however, not been included in the T20 squad to face New Zealand next month, which Roland Holder insists is the right call.

“I think Jason, based on his performance in the CPL, could have come in for some consideration, but again, I wouldn’t want to burden Jason, with all the different disciplines he has to play already,” Holder told the Mason and Guest radio program.

“He’s doing well as Test captain. He’s an integral part of the 50-over side as a player. Why would you want to go and force T20 on him at this point in time? He’s one of our player’s that’s performing so why would we want to overload him so that he doesn’t perform.”

https://www.sportsmax.tv/index.php/...e-bowler-would-not-recall-holder-to-t20-squad
 
Jason Holder averages 28 with the Dukes ball.

With the Kookaburra, its 67. It's not that he can't bowl with the Kookaburra - his record in Sri Lanka and UAE is outstanding.

In the Southern Hemisphere more shockingly though given you'd think his height would be suited to quicker and bouncier pitches, he averages 122.
 
He can miss a trick with the captaincy too. Watching the highlights of Day 1 of the NZ Test and so many edges are travelling through the slips.

Get as many catchers in, you're 1-0 down in the series bowling on a greentop.
 
Markhor said:
Jason Holder averages 28 with the Dukes ball.

With the Kookaburra, its 67. It's not that he can't bowl with the Kookaburra - his record in Sri Lanka and UAE is outstanding.

In the Southern Hemisphere more shockingly though given you'd think his height would be suited to quicker and bouncier pitches, he averages 122.
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Holder is really good against poor lineups and really poor against good lineups. Apart from bounce his bowling is completely harmless.

His record vs England is an anomaly.
 
Mamoon said:
Holder is really good against poor lineups and really poor against good lineups. Apart from bounce his bowling is completely harmless.

His record vs England is an anomaly.
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Not in last 2-3 years - he has been excellent against ENG & IND as well, haven't played with Aussies during that period and had a poor first Test with ball against Kiwis.
 
Markhor said:
He can miss a trick with the captaincy too. Watching the highlights of Day 1 of the NZ Test and so many edges are travelling through the slips.

Get as many catchers in, you're 1-0 down in the series bowling on a greentop.
Click to expand...

As a leader , he is outstanding. But tactically he is not that great. That's why West Indies replaced him with Pollard who is a good tactician for LO cricket.
 
His purple patch appears to have ended. His batting is still good. His bowling though only suits conditions that favor swing and seam. NZ are very good against visiting pacers in their backyard apart from Australia who own them every time.
He would walk into Pakistan side but not really into every side especially Aus, SA, NZ and England who have plenty of allrounders. Australian tail is good enough to compensate for an allrounder though. Pattinson, Starc and Cummins are very good with the bat for tailenders.
 
Tactically as a captain I have question marks, but as an all rounder he is top class.
 
BunnyRabbit said:
His purple patch appears to have ended. His batting is still good. His bowling though only suits conditions that favor swing and seam. NZ are very good against visiting pacers in their backyard apart from Australia who own them every time.
He would walk into Pakistan side but not really into every side especially Aus, SA, NZ and England who have plenty of allrounders. Australian tail is good enough to compensate for an allrounder though. Pattinson, Starc and Cummins are very good with the bat for tailenders.
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Interesting assessment. Lets look at his competition in these four countries

Aus - Nathan Coulternile, Cameron Green, Mitch Marsh
SA - Chris Morris, Ngidi (if they play only three seamers), one of the middle order bats
NZ - Colin De Grondhomme, Daryl Mitchell, Tim Southee, one of the middle order bats
ENG - Ben Stokes, Chris Woakes

Eng
I think him and Chris Woakes are actually pretty similar in what you can expect them to deliver. Holder perhaps better bowler across conditions. Ben Stokes definitely appears to have hit a crazy level of form. Would get picked ahead of Holder in most sides, you imagine. Therefore, at the very least, not an automatic pick.

Aus
If we set Cameron Green aside, and Jason Holder could bat at 6, then he would be a welcome addition to Australia. They are desperate for a fifth bowling option who can bat in the top 6. Hence why Mitch Marsh has played so many games. So Holder would be an automatic pick. Anyway, the middle order slots for Australia are hardly settled. Travis Head, Matt Wade and Cameron Green currently battling out for the spots. So he could take one of those spots and give Australia a lot of balance. He would have to bat in the top six though, so that would probably be overrreaching a bit, but better than Mitch Marsh, so an auto pick until Cameron Green establishes himself.

SA
Same goes here. Automatic pick. De Kock bats at 6, so he can bat at 7 and give much needed balance. No real competition in the pace bowling a/r slot now that Philander has retired.

NZ
Would pick him. Another side with a keeper in the top six, so Holder only has to bat seven. De Grondhomme tried to fill this role and Holder is better than him. Now they have Daryl Mitchell, who I haven’t seen or heard about yet.

As for the rest -

Pakistan automatic pick. Sri Lanka - automatic pick and would be best seamer. BD - auto pick.

India, Pandya ahead of him for his batting ability, but Holder could still be a third seamer for India with Bumrah and Shami. Kind of Bhuvneshwar role. But perhaps not an automatic pick.
 
FreePalestine said:
Interesting assessment. Lets look at his competition in these four countries

Aus - Nathan Coulternile, Cameron Green, Mitch Marsh
SA - Chris Morris, Ngidi (if they play only three seamers), one of the middle order bats
NZ - Colin De Grondhomme, Daryl Mitchell, Tim Southee, one of the middle order bats
ENG - Ben Stokes, Chris Woakes

Eng
I think him and Chris Woakes are actually pretty similar in what you can expect them to deliver. Holder perhaps better bowler across conditions. Ben Stokes definitely appears to have hit a crazy level of form. Would get picked ahead of Holder in most sides, you imagine. Therefore, at the very least, not an automatic pick.

Aus
If we set Cameron Green aside, and Jason Holder could bat at 6, then he would be a welcome addition to Australia. They are desperate for a fifth bowling option who can bat in the top 6. Hence why Mitch Marsh has played so many games. So Holder would be an automatic pick. Anyway, the middle order slots for Australia are hardly settled. Travis Head, Matt Wade and Cameron Green currently battling out for the spots. So he could take one of those spots and give Australia a lot of balance. He would have to bat in the top six though, so that would probably be overrreaching a bit, but better than Mitch Marsh, so an auto pick until Cameron Green establishes himself.

SA
Same goes here. Automatic pick. De Kock bats at 6, so he can bat at 7 and give much needed balance. No real competition in the pace bowling a/r slot now that Philander has retired.

NZ
Would pick him. Another side with a keeper in the top six, so Holder only has to bat seven. De Grondhomme tried to fill this role and Holder is better than him. Now they have Daryl Mitchell, who I haven’t seen or heard about yet.

As for the rest -

Pakistan automatic pick. Sri Lanka - automatic pick and would be best seamer. BD - auto pick.

India, Pandya ahead of him for his batting ability, but Holder could still be a third seamer for India with Bumrah and Shami. Kind of Bhuvneshwar role. But perhaps not an automatic pick.
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You seem really short sighted here. NZ have Grandhomme who has been doing exceptionally good and is way more consistent than Holder. Plus they have James Neesham, Corey Anderson, Colin Munro, Santner, Mitchell and a few others. You ask any Kiwi, they may be happy with what they already have.

In England, no chance. Woakes is way more consistent than Holder.

In SA, you are probably forgetting Pretorius, Phehlukwayo, and a few others in their domestic system, but quota system messes their selection.

In Australia, they have Cam Green, Hilton Cartwright, Marcus Stoinis, Mitch Marsh, but they are more of batting allrounders. Holder is a bowling allrounder, he is not good enough to bat at no.6 in Australian or English or SA team.
 
Markhor said:
Jason Holder averages 28 with the Dukes ball.

With the Kookaburra, its 67. It's not that he can't bowl with the Kookaburra - his record in Sri Lanka and UAE is outstanding.

In the Southern Hemisphere more shockingly though given you'd think his height would be suited to quicker and bouncier pitches, he averages 122.
Click to expand...

Pakistan and SL batting isn't that great.
 
He's a decent allrounder. He'd be in the conversation for most teams allrounder spot. He had one good year really but he's a player who when away from home averages 42 with the ball & 22 with the bat. Not worth his spot in the team in either department on those figures and it's not even close to good enough with either.

he'd miss out on;

the English team- Stokes is the worlds best & Woakes the better bowler with about the same batting returns;

the NZ team- not as good as Jamieson, but better than De Grandhomme though;

the Oz team- he'd get a game somewhere when Marsh gets dropped but then his away performances would see him dropped himself. Now Green would keep him out.

He'd probably get a game for every other team, even India could use his height & their bowlers struggle away anyway usually.
 
BunnyRabbit said:
You seem really short sighted here. NZ have Grandhomme who has been doing exceptionally good and is way more consistent than Holder. Plus they have James Neesham, Corey Anderson, Colin Munro, Santner, Mitchell and a few others. You ask any Kiwi, they may be happy with what they already have.

In England, no chance. Woakes is way more consistent than Holder.

In SA, you are probably forgetting Pretorius, Phehlukwayo, and a few others in their domestic system, but quota system messes their selection.

In Australia, they have Cam Green, Hilton Cartwright, Marcus Stoinis, Mitch Marsh, but they are more of batting allrounders. Holder is a bowling allrounder, he is not good enough to bat at no.6 in Australian or English or SA team.
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Hmm... not sure about how anything I said is ‘short-sighted’. Anyway, let’s look at what you have said on merit:

I already mentioned De Grandhomme. Would pick Holder over him any day, especially outside of NZ. Even though De Grandhomme averages 37, I do not think he is a better batsman than Holder. He certainly isn’t a better bowler. So I mentioned Mitchell, and De Grandhomme anyway, who were your main contenders in test cricket for Holder’s spot, so the others you mention (Corey Anderson, last test 2016), Neesham, last test 2017, Munro, only test 2013) are moot, since they are not regular starters in NZ anyway... Santner is the only one I forgot about, but even then, a left arm spinner compared to a pace bowling all rounder, could be a conditions pick, but note that Santner averages 44 with the ball in test cricket.

So your argument here appears done and dusted with NZ. As for Kiwis being ‘happy with what they already have’, that is fine, but what has that got to do with Jason Holder?

England, as I said, not an automatic starter, so we are agreed.

SA. Again, some odd reasoning here. Phehlukwaya, a black African cricketer is being harmed by the quota system? Like NZ, you just throw names of a/r’s and assume they are all better than Holder. Pretorius is not as good a bowler as Holder, and may be a better batsman, but hasn’t delivered yet in intl cricket. Holder would be picked ahead of him, especially in test cricket, where he would have to bat 7 because of De Kock. Phehlukwayo is not good enough to bat at 7 in test cricket anyway and Holder is, again, a better bowler.

Australia - I already mentioned Cam Green. I think my argument still stands, the reason Marsh has played so much test cricket for Australia without delivering proves that Australia are desperate for a fifth bowling option in the side. Here are Mitch Marsh’s stats in test cricket: 25 avg with the bat, 38 avg with the ball. Holder: 32 with the bat, 27 with the ball. Who would you pick? And by the way, Marsh batted at six for Australia!

I think that about covers your objections...
 
I expect that in the absence of the burden of captaincy, Holder will become more consistent with both bat and ball.

So far so good, 5 wickets in the first innings of this test against Sri Lanka and now a decent start with the bat.
 
Home track bully but will get into most teams except India, Australia and England.

Stokes, Jadeja and Shakib all are better.
 
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It is pretty rare that a West Indies player features in red-ball cricket county cricket.

----------------------------

Worcestershire Sign Jason Holder For Launch Of Championship Campaign

Worcestershire have further strengthened their squad for their return to Division One action in the Vitality County Championship by signing West Indies star Jason Holder, for the opening five matches.

Holder, a former number one all-rounder in the ICC Test rankings, will fly into England in time for the opening Championship fixture against Warwickshire at Edgbaston beginning on Friday, April 5.

The 32-year-old, a Wisden Cricketer of the Year in 2021, is also available for the home fixtures with Durham and Somerset at Kidderminster and the away games with Nottinghamshire and Kent.

He is the latest in a group of distinguished West Indian cricketers to play for Worcestershire including Vanburn Holder, Chris Gayle, Andre Russell, Shannon Gabriel and Kemar Roach.

Holder has captained his country in more than 100 internationals across all formats and became only the second West Indian player after the great Sir Garfield Sobers to score 2,500 runs and take 150 wickets in Test cricket.

He has produced many memorable performances including in 2019 a double century against England in the First Test on his home ground at the Kensington Oval, Barbados.

Holder has also made his mark in white ball cricket to great effect, becoming the fastest player in ODIs to take 100 wickets and score 1,000 runs for the West Indies.

He has been regularly signed up to play franchise cricket, including for five different teams in the IPL, and recently had spell with Khulna Tigers in the Bangladesh Premier League.

His only previous spell of county cricket was with Northamptonshire in 2019 when he played two Championship and give One-Day Cup games.

Holder said: “I always enjoy my time in England and I’m looking forward to helping Worcestershire get off to a good start to life in Division One of the County Championship.

“I know Worcestershire have had strong links with the West Indies in terms of players playing for them over many years and I hope I can make my mark over the five games.

“When you get promoted, if you can make a decent start it gives you that confidence and belief to build upon for the rest of the season.

“You speak to people on the circuit and they said Worcestershire have a tight knit but friendly dressing room and I’m looking forward to playing my part on and off the field.”

Worcestershire CEO, Ashley Giles, is delighted to have acquired Holder’s services for the first block of Championship cricket.

“He said: “I’m absolutely delighted. When someone of Jason’s experience and quality becomes available, even for a short window, we just had to jump at it.

“We know on the field as a cricketer he is a world class all-rounder but off the field a world class individual as well.

“We are also aware that starting the season well is going to be important to us and having him in our line-up can only help that.

“Just having someone of his quality when you take to the field gives you a big lift.

“You are back in Division One, you know it’s going to be tough, and you can only be better if you’ve got Jason Holder in that line-up. He has a big presence.”

Holder will become Worcestershire’s second overseas player available to play Championship cricket after New Zealander Nathan Smith who finished as the leading wicket-taker in the Plunket Shield.

SOURCE: WCCC
 
West Indies suffer a blow as Jason Holder is forced to withdraw from the T20 World Cup 2024 due to a County Championship injury. Obed McCoy steps in as his replacement, bringing a fresh spin to the team's campaign.
 
Jason Holder brings up his 13th Test Fifty in 1st innings of 3rd Test against England

He played some glorious shots, He is an underrated all rounder.
 
Jason Holder has started his PSL journey with a bang. 3 wickets in his debut match for him against Lahore Qalandars in the PSL X opener.
His figures so far 3/12
 
I always believed that once he scored his First Test Century He should have become WI number 5 batsman instead of batting at number and rarely number 7 rarely. He has always underestimated himself as a batsman.

No way your Best Test batsman should come at number 8. His test batting average of 29-30 is legendary considering he batted mostly at number 8 where either you have to bat with the tail or new ball gets due if top order survived 80 overs. If he plays Test Cricket for next 5 years which he should play in my view than it should be primarily as a number 5 batsman and a 5th or 6th bowling option.

Highly underrated player & a true gentleman of World Cricket.
 
Islamabad is a pretty solid unit to beat. Their bowling is good. Batting is good. Overall, a great unit to have. Good to see Haider ali getting a chance, and he played a solid knock.
 
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