Jawaharlal Nehru’s Letter to Chief Ministers on RSS in 1947

[Extra_Cover]

My dear Prime Minister, * (Chief Ministers)

Reports have reached me of big demonstrations organized by the R.S.S. in some provinces. Often these demonstrations have been held in spite of prohibitory orders like Section 144. Some provincial authorities have taken no action in this matter and apparently accepted this defiance of orders. I do not wish to interfere with your discretion in this matter. But I would like to draw your attention to the fact that this acquiescence in defiance is likely to have grave consequences.

2. We have a great deal of evidence to show that the R.S.S. is an organization which is in the nature of a private army and which is definitely proceeding on the strictest Nazi lines, even following the technique of organisation. It is not our desire to interfere with civil liberties. But training in arms of large numbers of persons with the obvious intention of using them is not something that can be encouraged. The fact that the R.S.S. is definitely and deliberately against the present central and provincial governments need not be considered enough for any action to be taken against them and any legitimate propaganda might certainly be allowed. But their activity more and more goes beyond these limits and it is desirable for provincial governments to keep a watchful eye and to take such actions as they may deem necessary.

3. Some provincial governments have taken against periodicals for promoting hatred between communities. Probably the newspapers of the R.S.S. are more to blame in this matter than any other newspapers or periodicals outside Pakistan. It is amazing how they carry on this communal propaganda in its extremist form.

4. I have some knowledge of the way the Nazi Movement developed in Germany. It attracted by its superficial trappings and strict discipline considerable number of lower middle class young men and women who are normally not too intelligent and for whom life appeared to offer little to attract them. And so they drifted towards the Nazi party because its policy and programme, such as they were, were simple, negative and did not require an active effort of the mind. The Nazi party brought Germany to ruin and I have little doubt that if these tendencies are allowed to spread and increase in India, they would do enormous injury to India. No doubt India would survive. But she would be grievously wounded and would take a long time to recover.

5. Our young men, now full of vitality, find few outlets for this vitality and so they drift towards wrong channels. This is a serious matter for the future of the country and we cannot look on silently while this is happening. It is, of course, completely opposed to Congress policy in the past or in the present. Unfortunately, a number of Congressmen, without thinking, are attracted to this development of fascist and Nazi modes of thought and practice. I have ventured, therefore, to draw your attention to this for we will ignore it at our peril.

https://frontline.thehindu.com/cover-story/letters-for-a-nation/article6629971.ece

I came across this letter from Nehru in 1947. Only one word can describe this letter in 2019; prophecy.

Thoughts

 

[Iqbal'sh]

One of the reasons as to why the Hindutva extremists are trying to undermine Nehrus legacy, of which there are a number of examples.
IK was right on the money when he highlighted this at the UN

 

[SakunaPataka]

https://frontline.thehindu.com/cover-story/letters-for-a-nation/article6629971.ece

I came across this letter from Nehru in 1947. Only one word can describe this letter in 2019; prophecy.

Thoughts

Its been 72 yrs since that ... so there must be colossal damage caused by RSS considering that they were all armed and had significant time to cause damage ... so lets see some ethic cleansing , lets see some mini concentration camps ... where are the millions of dead bodies ... is India's Muslim population closer to 0% like it is in Pakistan w.r.t Hindus.

Lets see some facts.

 

[King-Misbah]

Its been 72 yrs since that ... so there must be colossal damage caused by RSS considering that they were all armed and had significant time to cause damage ... so lets see some ethic cleansing , lets see some mini concentration camps ... where are the millions of dead bodies ... is India's Muslim population closer to 0% like it is in Pakistan w.r.t Hindus.

Lets see some facts.

Gujrat? RSS threatening Kashmiris with ethnic cleansing and wanting to take their women..so disgusting!

And please, the Hindu population has grown in Pakistan. Stop this propaganda! West Pakistan had less Hindus from the start as compared to East Pakistan.

 

[SakunaPataka]

Gujrat?

that was Mob retaliation for burning innocent women and children alive. Maybe Muslims shouldn't indulge in such horrific acts to begin with ?. Where is your outrage for that ? Where is the outrage for the ethnic cleansing of Kashmiri Pandits ? Can you show me a similar unprovoked event of mass casualties conducted by RSS since you accuse them to be Nazis ?

In any case the Indian justice system dealt with all perpetrators. And you conveniently ignore the fact that many Hindus died in those riots.

RSS threatening Kashmiris with ethnic cleansing and wanting to take their women..so disgusting!

Lets see the source for this.

And please, the Hindu population has grown in Pakistan. Stop this propaganda!

Nowhere close to Muslim Population growth in India and there are no proper census conducted in recent yrs. But going by media reports and constant asylum requests i very much doubt this is true.

West Pakistan had less Hindus from the start as compared to East Pakistan.

And how did that come to be ? Let me remind you - Death, Destruction, forced conversions and medieval intolerant mindset that goes back centuries and is still very much alive. There is a reason why Pak is so overwhelmingly Muslim. don't try to paint a picture innocent Pakistan where minorities live very peacfully. Heck your constitution officially discriminates against Minorities.

 

[Napa]

One of the reasons as to why the Hindutva extremists are trying to undermine Nehrus legacy, of which there are a number of examples.
IK was right on the money when he highlighted this at the UN

Nehru's most significant legacy is the grinding poverty he left India in, with 61% of the population below the poverty line.

Nehru was an elitist, educated abroad, used to talk big and out of touch with most of India. He believed in the government controlling everything, and of course he should be the head of the government. No wonder why his leadership resulted in massive poverty, while countries with pragmatic leaderships like the East Asian tigers prospered.

 

[Professor]

that was Mob retaliation for burning innocent women and children alive. Maybe Muslims shouldn't indulge in such horrific acts to begin with ?. Where is your outrage for that ? Where is the outrage for the ethnic cleansing of Kashmiri Pandits ? Can you show me a similar unprovoked event of mass casualties conducted by RSS since you accuse them to be Nazis ?

In any case the Indian justice system dealt with all perpetrators. And you conveniently ignore the fact that many Hindus died in those riots.



Lets see the source for this.




Nowhere close to Muslim Population growth in India and there are no proper census conducted in recent yrs. But going by media reports and constant asylum requests i very much doubt this is true.


And how did that come to be ? Let me remind you - Death, Destruction, forced conversions and medieval intolerant mindset that goes back centuries and is still very much alive. There is a reason why Pak is so overwhelmingly Muslim. don't try to paint a picture innocent Pakistan where minorities live very peacfully. Heck your constitution officially discriminates against Minorities.

Never understood this barbaric mindset of collective punishment . If a group of muslims commits a crime then arrest them, why start killing every Muslim in sight? Do you think all Muslims are one entity?

Do you think if a group of people commits a crime its justifies killing anyone that belongs to their religion even if they were not involved in the crime at all?

 

[SakunaPataka]

Never understood this barbaric mindset of collective punishment . If a group of muslims commits a crime then arrest them, why start killing every Muslim in sight? Do you think all Muslims are one entity?

Do you think if a group of people commits a crime its justifies killing anyone that belongs to their religion even if they were not involved in the crime at all?

Absolutely not. Iam just stating facts as they are. People like to paint Indian and subcontinent Muslims as innocent dudh sey dhuley hua community that never hurt a fly. That narrative is so far removed from truth that it beggars belief.

Now why dont you tell us how there is absolutely no mention whatsoever of the train burning when the Gujrat riots topic comes up ? Where is the outrage for that given the theme these days is Human rights vioations ? Ditto for Kashmiri Pandits.

 

[Professor]

Absolutely not. Iam just stating facts as they are. People like to paint Indian and subcontinent Muslims as innocent dudh sey dhuley hua community that never hurt a fly. That narrative is so far removed from truth that it beggars belief.

Now why dont you tell us how there is absolutely no mention whatsoever of the train burning when the Gujrat riots topic comes up ? Where is the outrage for that given the theme these days is Human rights vioations ? Ditto for Kashmiri Pandits.

No group is full of saints, anyone who believes that its wrong. Obviously Muslim group have been involved in violence too. I can’t speak for everyone but mostly Godhra train is bought up whenever I have read about it or discussed the gujrat riots. Perhaps the riots are more talked about then the train burning because thousands died in the riots and also there were doubts of the government being involved.

Whether you agree with it or not but many credible voices even in India believed that the state government in Gujrat patronized the rioters and encouraged killing Muslims . There are even sting videos from the India media where rioters have said they had the governments blessing to go after Muslims. That could be why the riots are more publicized , human rights violations are always a bigger deal when the government is involved.


Also I don’t get why people use Kashmir pundits to justify what’s happening in Kashmir now. Why is it hard to say that what happened to the pandits was wrong and what’s happening in Kashmir today is wrong. Why use twisted justifications?

 

[SakunaPataka]

No group is full of saints, anyone who believes that its wrong. Obviously Muslim group have been involved in violence too. I can’t speak for everyone but mostly Godhra train is bought up whenever I have read about it or discussed the gujrat riots. Perhaps the riots are more talked about then the train burning because thousands died in the riots and also there were doubts of the government being involved..

Absolutely not. We have live evidence right here in this thread where Gujrat riots were introduced as though they were an act of un-provoked violence engineered by RSS against a very innocent and harmless peace loving community started with no mention of Godhra untill I responded. And lets not forget that this thread is about RSS and how they are no less evil than the Nazis.

Turns out that it is nowhere close to truth based on the Godhra incident doesnt it ? Shouldnt we be focusing on the root cause for Gujrat riots ? Let me know if you want to go that way.

And before you forget there were hundreds of Hindus that died in the riots.

Whether you agree with it or not but many credible voices even in India believed that the state government in Gujrat patronized the rioters and encouraged killing Muslims . There are even sting videos from the India media where rioters have said they had the governments blessing to go after Muslims. That could be why the riots are more publicized , human rights violations are always a bigger deal when the government is involved.

They have all had their day in court. The Justice system in India went to excruciating lengths in search of justice ( like moving the court out of Gujrat to ensure fairness ). Google it.

And if you think the Indian justice system is corrupt then explain this --> https://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/f...urvivor-receives-justice-190520114202383.html

Also I don’t get why people use Kashmir pundits to justify what’s happening in Kashmir now. Why is it hard to say that what happened to the pandits was wrong and what’s happening in Kashmir today is wrong. Why use twisted justifications?

That is because if you are going to take the high road of HR violations (which is the theme coming out of Pakistan days ) it is simple common sense to start with one of the biggest ethnic cleansing since the violent days of partition. But we all know that is just a facade. Truth is that this conflict is purely a religious conflict and there is little rights for non-muslim lives even in this day and age.

I mean one of the posters here has his signature mocking the mention of Kashmiri Pandits.


Anyhow back to the main topic ... where are the unprovoked RSS engineered genocides and ethnic cleansing's ? Where are the Aushwitz camps ? Who are the Rommels and Hoss ? How many millions of Muslims have been killed unprovoked ?

 

[GoUgandaCranes]

Absolutely not. We have live evidence right here in this thread where Gujrat riots were introduced as though they were an act of un-provoked violence engineered by RSS against a very innocent and harmless peace loving community started with no mention of Godhra untill I responded. And lets not forget that this thread is about RSS and how they are no less evil than the Nazis.

Turns out that it is nowhere close to truth based on the Godhra incident doesnt it ? Shouldnt we be focusing on the root cause for Gujrat riots ? Let me know if you want to go that way.

And before you forget there were hundreds of Hindus that died in the riots.



They have all had their day in court. The Justice system in India went to excruciating lengths in search of justice ( like moving the court out of Gujrat to ensure fairness ). Google it.

And if you think the Indian justice system is corrupt then explain this --> https://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/f...urvivor-receives-justice-190520114202383.html




That is because if you are going to take the high road of HR violations (which is the theme coming out of Pakistan days ) it is simple common sense to start with one of the biggest ethnic cleansing since the violent days of partition. But we all know that is just a facade. Truth is that this conflict is purely a religious conflict and there is little rights for non-muslim lives even in this day and age.

I mean one of the posters here has his signature mocking the mention of Kashmiri Pandits.


Anyhow back to the main topic ... where are the unprovoked RSS engineered genocides and ethnic cleansing's ? Where are the Aushwitz camps ? Who are the Rommels and Hoss ? How many millions of Muslims have been killed unprovoked ?

There's no high road for Pakistan to take anyway. Our track record is terrible. I don't agree with all the exaggerations that pop up sometimes when it comes to figures and statistics of the atrocities attributed to us but our track record is terrible and it needs mending.

So that's the first thing. Now the second and we understand that some Indians may have trust issues with Pakistan. However, there's also another side that people from India need to understand. India isn't the docile neighbor that Indian media makes it be and Pakistan isn't the one always kickstarting fires. There are many dimensions to this relationship and it's super complicated with Pakistani people genuinely feeling that India has mistreated us wherever they have had the chance.

Now comes the latest issue of RSS and its manifesto and why it's something that should raise alarm bells for Indian common folk as well. It's a fundamentally aggressive ideology that's very much focusing on the racial purity of one population subsegment. Now you may point out that Islam says the same thing, wrong, Islam doesn't do that. There's a version of Islam that the Islamophobes push and peddle all over the world in mainstream media and whatnot and it's a major challenge for us Muslims to rise above it.

Indians are some of the nicest people to exist on the planet. Their contribution in all fields of life are major and India in itself is beautiful. vast, diverse country. Now millions of people armed with propaganda and fake information are becoming vigilantes and thinking that they are doing a service to the motherland. You say where is Ashwitz and genocide and then you add 'unprovoked' which literally means that if they are provoked you would justify ethnic cleansing and detention camps. Also, look into Assam and see what kind of detention camps are being built. And look into the whatsapp groups and social media wing of BJP that's producing hate content. And then look at the mobs delivering swift violence to people who they believe have done something that doesn't fit their ideas.

Pakistan needs to do better, there's no denying it. India needs to do the same, admit that and work with all the voices in India that are against extremism.

 

[Rellu_Katta]

Dont know if people have seen the movie "Blade 2" . in the movie, the Day Walker kills vampires but there is a new mutation which turns some vampires into eating vampires.

The Vampire elders come to day walker for help and his Question is "Why kill the guys who are actually doing my work" .. the ans was "Who do you think they will turn to, once all vampires are gone"

The hindues/sikhz and other minorities need to understand this. once the RSS has done what they want to do with muslims/christians, who do you think they will turn to ...

Skihz will be next followed by the low cast hindues... the addition of terrorizing and killing is far more greater than anything .... people need to open their eyes

 

[Kroll]

that was Mob retaliation for burning innocent women and children alive. Maybe Muslims shouldn't indulge in such horrific acts to begin with ?. Where is your outrage for that ? Where is the outrage for the ethnic cleansing of Kashmiri Pandits ? Can you show me a similar unprovoked event of mass casualties conducted by RSS since you accuse them to be Nazis ?

In any case the Indian justice system dealt with all perpetrators. And you conveniently ignore the fact that many Hindus died in those riots.



Lets see the source for this.




Nowhere close to Muslim Population growth in India and there are no proper census conducted in recent yrs. But going by media reports and constant asylum requests i very much doubt this is true.


And how did that come to be ? Let me remind you - Death, Destruction, forced conversions and medieval intolerant mindset that goes back centuries and is still very much alive. There is a reason why Pak is so overwhelmingly Muslim. don't try to paint a picture innocent Pakistan where minorities live very peacfully. Heck your constitution officially discriminates against Minorities.

There is doubt about how it happened. Muslims were blamed so that carnage could be set upon their population after being given the green light by Modi and co.

 

[cricketjoshila]

Never understood this barbaric mindset of collective punishment . If a group of muslims commits a crime then arrest them, why start killing every Muslim in sight? Do you think all Muslims are one entity?

Do you think if a group of people commits a crime its justifies killing anyone that belongs to their religion even if they were not involved in the crime at all?

It was a mob riot. When 63 people of one community are burned alive by another community there will be law and order issues.

There has been riots in India throughout its history, why single out one incident?

Can you tell me why hindus were attacked and temples destroyed in Pakistan in 1992?

 

[cricketjoshila]

There is doubt about how it happened. Muslims were blamed so that carnage could be set upon their population after being given the green light by Modi and co.

There is no doubt. Courts have convicted muslim consiprators.

 

[Kroll]

There is no doubt. Courts have convicted muslim consiprators.

That's kind of my point, the courts could convict anyone with the blessings of the establishment in order to validate the brutal massacres that occurred thereafter. I've read many reports on this topic and most reputable sources including Indian do not overwhelmingly conclude that a "Muslim Mob" did it.

And for argument sake, say that this was the case, then the courts and investigations should be the only thing that takes care of justice, not where thousands of armed mobs in a whole state can go on the rampage to do their thing while Modi and co egg them on and encourage it.

 

[Iqbal'sh]

It was a mob riot.

Of course it was, and it’s completely incidental that the mob found electoral register lists and were able to target Muslims in their homes.

 

[cricketjoshila]

That's kind of my point, the courts could convict anyone with the blessings of the establishment in order to validate the brutal massacres that occurred thereafter. I've read many reports on this topic and most reputable sources including Indian do not overwhelmingly conclude that a "Muslim Mob" did it.

And for argument sake, say that this was the case, then the courts and investigations should be the only thing that takes care of justice, not where thousands of armed mobs in a whole state can go on the rampage to do their thing while Modi and co egg them on and encourage it.

Reports and sources are not judgements.

Unlike banana republics, in India court are independent of the govt. The govt cannot appoint or remove a judge. So they have no influence on courts.

Yes courts and police should be the ones dispensing justice, but in a nation of 1.2bn it sometimes becomes difficult to control the Mob.

As i said, Religious riots have been taking place in India since decades. Gujarat is no exception.

 

[Iqbal'sh]

Unlike banana republics, in India court are independent of the govt. The govt cannot appoint or remove a judge. So they have no influence on courts.

Must be true because [MENTION=76058]cricketjoshila[/MENTION] said it:

https://mobile.reuters.com/article/amp/idUSKBN0F11IR20140626

https://wap.business-standard.com/a...yers-echo-judge-s-concern-118033100201_1.html

https://www.bbc.com/news/amp/world-asia-india-42660391

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-india-22450872

 

[Romali_rotti]

I keep saying this over and over again, Jawarharlal Nehru should be considered one of the main heroes of Pakistan. Not only did he ensure that Pakistan got to keep some part of Kashmir but also made sure the Kashmiri Pandits would be made refugees on their own land...

 

[big_gamer007]

Where are these letters coming out from in 2019?

Are they even real or propaganda by liberal media?

 

[cricketjoshila]

Must be true because [MENTION=76058]cricketjoshila[/MENTION] said it:

https://mobile.reuters.com/article/amp/idUSKBN0F11IR20140626

https://wap.business-standard.com/a...yers-echo-judge-s-concern-118033100201_1.html

https://www.bbc.com/news/amp/world-asia-india-42660391

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-india-22450872

Posting reports of 2014 for a judgement in a case of 2002. Get real lol.

Secondly do read up the articles. Only in the 1st story did the govt object to the appointment of a judge because as a lawyer the judge was working for congress party.

 

[Iqbal'sh]

Posting reports of 2014 for a judgement in a case of 2002. Get real lol.

Secondly do read up the articles. Only in the 1st story did the govt object to the appointment of a judge because as a lawyer the judge was working for congress party.

Enough of your rubbish. You claimed the government cannot appoint or remove a judge AND/OR they have no influence on courts.

The links I posted were the first 4, of countless results of a search engine.

All 4 prove you lied. They show judiciary officials raising concerns about the BJP government making appointments not based on merit or ‘independent minds’ but because they are BJP associates.
They also show how the BJP has used their power to exert influence over court rulings.
The Amit Shah murder case being an example.

 

[Extra_Cover]

This thread has been so conveniently diverted towards Gujrat riots that the basic letter from Nehru is not being discussed.

From what I have read and seen in many documentaries the two stalwarts of Indian democratic history are Gandhi and Nehru. Admittedly the popularity of these two outshone many Pakistan's stalwarts. In particularly Gandhi's popularity globally is widely recognised and puts his name among the most respected people of this past century, with people like Mandela, Dalai Lama, Martin Luther King, etc.

It is very respectful to malign the image of these stalwarts by modern India. Perhaps this letter is the reason why this letter current government of India have this animosity towards them. The link here is that Nehru criticizes RSS ideology. The current ruling government BJP and its supporters are enshrined in this ideology.

India needs to wake up to this and needs to eliminate the root cause of issues in here which is the ideology. I don't know much about hinduism but I can say for certain that this religion does not instigate violence or hatred towards its minorities. So people need to draw the line and realise that BJP might not be best for the very religion it carries itself on. As I said I don't know much about hinduism but I'm getting to know more and more of BJP by their actions. As they say actions speak louder than words and over the last 6 years in India there are plenty of actions that convey a strong message for the minorities.

The readers should understand one thing. Faces can change, leaders can change, messages can change, but ideology never changes with time. If people in here agree that BJP and Nazi have similar ideologies then it is up to Indian people to do something about it.

 

[kk1992]

This thread has been so conveniently diverted towards Gujrat riots that the basic letter from Nehru is not being discussed.

From what I have read and seen in many documentaries the two stalwarts of Indian democratic history are Gandhi and Nehru. Admittedly the popularity of these two outshone many Pakistan's stalwarts. In particularly Gandhi's popularity globally is widely recognised and puts his name among the most respected people of this past century, with people like Mandela, Dalai Lama, Martin Luther King, etc.

It is very respectful to malign the image of these stalwarts by modern India. Perhaps this letter is the reason why this letter current government of India have this animosity towards them. The link here is that Nehru criticizes RSS ideology. The current ruling government BJP and its supporters are enshrined in this ideology.

India needs to wake up to this and needs to eliminate the root cause of issues in here which is the ideology. I don't know much about hinduism but I can say for certain that this religion does not instigate violence or hatred towards its minorities. So people need to draw the line and realise that BJP might not be best for the very religion it carries itself on. As I said I don't know much about hinduism but I'm getting to know more and more of BJP by their actions. As they say actions speak louder than words and over the last 6 years in India there are plenty of actions that convey a strong message for the minorities.

The readers should understand one thing. Faces can change, leaders can change, messages can change, but ideology never changes with time. If people in here agree that BJP and Nazi have similar ideologies then it is up to Indian people to do something about it.

Won't happen.

This is why, in Pakistan, majority of the people were against the radicalism and vast majority never supported, even during Afghan war, mostly who fought Russia in Afghanistan were Arabs and Afghans.

In India, radicalized ideology has been ingrained at a young age, vast vast majority support it or over look it as it was evident in last Indian elections.

The idea of Hindu dominance sold by BJP/RSS in India is probably the best selling point that is easily bought by Indian and for that most Indian would over look and ignore any crime against minorities as it is evident in last 5 years.

You can clearly see that most Hindus are still upset about Partition.

 

[SakunaPataka]

This thread has been so conveniently diverted towards Gujrat riots that the basic letter from Nehru is not being discussed.

Meaning lets not let inconvenient facts get in the way of your RSS/India bashing ? Makes sense.

The Nehru Chacha's boot lickers will show up sooner or later to help you carry on the agenda.

 

[SakunaPataka]

Dont know if people have seen the movie "Blade 2" . in the movie, the Day Walker kills vampires but there is a new mutation which turns some vampires into eating vampires.

The Vampire elders come to day walker for help and his Question is "Why kill the guys who are actually doing my work" .. the ans was "Who do you think they will turn to, once all vampires are gone"

The hindues/sikhz and other minorities need to understand this. once the RSS has done what they want to do with muslims/christians, who do you think they will turn to ...

Skihz will be next followed by the low cast hindues... the addition of terrorizing and killing is far more greater than anything .... people need to open their eyes

Before we get ahead of ourselves lets look at what happened to the poor Muslims shall we or is that not necessary because we have a letter from Chacha Nehru ?

 

[SakunaPataka]

There's no high road for Pakistan to take anyway. Our track record is terrible. I don't agree with all the exaggerations that pop up sometimes when it comes to figures and statistics of the atrocities attributed to us but our track record is terrible and it needs mending.

So that's the first thing. Now the second and we understand that some Indians may have trust issues with Pakistan. However, there's also another side that people from India need to understand. India isn't the docile neighbor that Indian media makes it be and Pakistan isn't the one always kickstarting fires. There are many dimensions to this relationship and it's super complicated with Pakistani people genuinely feeling that India has mistreated us wherever they have had the chance.

Now comes the latest issue of RSS and its manifesto and why it's something that should raise alarm bells for Indian common folk as well. It's a fundamentally aggressive ideology that's very much focusing on the racial purity of one population subsegment. Now you may point out that Islam says the same thing, wrong, Islam doesn't do that. There's a version of Islam that the Islamophobes push and peddle all over the world in mainstream media and whatnot and it's a major challenge for us Muslims to rise above it.

Indians are some of the nicest people to exist on the planet. Their contribution in all fields of life are major and India in itself is beautiful. vast, diverse country. Now millions of people armed with propaganda and fake information are becoming vigilantes and thinking that they are doing a service to the motherland. You say where is Ashwitz and genocide and then you add 'unprovoked' which literally means that if they are provoked you would justify ethnic cleansing and detention camps. Also, look into Assam and see what kind of detention camps are being built. And look into the whatsapp groups and social media wing of BJP that's producing hate content. And then look at the mobs delivering swift violence to people who they believe have done something that doesn't fit their ideas.

Pakistan needs to do better, there's no denying it. India needs to do the same, admit that and work with all the voices in India that are against extremism.

First of all it is refreshing to see a mature response instead of the usual tu-tu-mai-mai that is the standard fare over here on most topics these days. So thanks for that. however I must respectfully disagree on the highlighted part based on hard facts and track record since the 7th Century AD. Don't agree ? Very well then please show me a single instance of RSS equivalent of what happened to Pandits in 1990 where people are offered binary choices - convert or flee.

Yes things could be better in India. No doubt about that. But then there is the issue of reality wherein Islam is going to continue its march. So unless there is a meaningful reform I see no hope for peace in our life times.

 

[Gharib Aadmi]

Its been 72 yrs since that ... so there must be colossal damage caused by RSS considering that they were all armed and had significant time to cause damage ... so lets see some ethic cleansing , lets see some mini concentration camps ... where are the millions of dead bodies ... is India's Muslim population closer to 0% like it is in Pakistan w.r.t Hindus.

Lets see some facts.

East Punjab's Muslim population is close to zero like Sikh/Hindu population in West Punjab. There was a partition of Punjab, not Gujarat, or Tamil Nadu, or UP. So you are not doing a favor to Muslims in those states by not expelling them.

 

[SakunaPataka]

Indians are some of the nicest people to exist on the planet. Their contribution in all fields of life are major and India in itself is beautiful. vast, diverse country. Now millions of people armed with propaganda and fake information are becoming vigilantes and thinking that they are doing a service to the motherland. You say where is Ashwitz and genocide and then you add 'unprovoked' which literally means that if they are provoked you would justify ethnic cleansing and detention camps. Also, look into Assam and see what kind of detention camps are being built. And look into the whatsapp groups and social media wing of BJP that's producing hate content. And then look at the mobs delivering swift violence to people who they believe have done something that doesn't fit their ideas.
.

The premise of this thread was RSS = Nazis. The Nazis went about systematically eliminating any Jew residing in their neighborhood or no other reason but that he/she was a Jew. Hence why I said un-provoked.

If Muslims don't like the disproportional response to atrocities initiated by their coreligionist the primary emphasis should be on ensuring prevention of such atrocities in the first place or just asking the vigilante groups to not take law into their hands ?

 

[SakunaPataka]

East Punjab's Muslim population is close to zero like Sikh/Hindu population in West Punjab. There was a partition of Punjab, not Gujarat, or Tamil Nadu, or UP. So you are not doing a favor to Muslims in those states by not expelling them.

this topic is not about what happened during 1947. Please read the thread to get context and my response.

 

[globalcitizen]

Most recently pakistani goons attacked Hindu community just for a false accusation of blasphemy. So don’t talk about tolerance.

Gujarat violence was triggered by a train containing Hindu pilgrims attacked and burnt.

No one is justifying the retaliation but it’s impossible to contain the reaction in that atmosphere. And this is true to any nook and corner in the world whether developed or undeveloped nations.

 

[GoUgandaCranes]

First of all it is refreshing to see a mature response instead of the usual tu-tu-mai-mai that is the standard fare over here on most topics these days. So thanks for that. however I must respectfully disagree on the highlighted part based on hard facts and track record since the 7th Century AD. Don't agree ? Very well then please show me a single instance of RSS equivalent of what happened to Pandits in 1990 where people are offered binary choices - convert or flee.

Yes things could be better in India. No doubt about that. But then there is the issue of reality wherein Islam is going to continue its march. So unless there is a meaningful reform I see no hope for peace in our life times.

You cannot judge a religion based on the people who practice it. People are flawed and that's a fact. I didn't know much about Islam myself and recently I've been trying to learn more about it. It's fascinating how a lot of common beliefs that Muslims themselves have, have no real fundamental basis and have evolved over time out of nothing.

As an example, the first victim of power dynasties was the family of the Prophet (Sallalu alaihi wassalam) and that tells you a lot about how the Muslim world has fallen victim to power and let go of basic fundamental practices that were imperative to follow.

Now, the second part claiming RSS = NAZISM isn't about comparing the atrocities that the Nazis carried out in the second half of their regime but the parallels of how it all started. How it went from patriotism and all things nice to an ultimate hatred for everyone that lives and breathes but doesn't share the same looks or opinions. Look around and tell me if that's not happening right now.

The tools of mass propaganda have become better and more personalized. If anything there aren't just two versions of an event, there are many and all of them are equally terrifying, horrible, and based on communal hatred.

Lastly, as people, all we can do for each other is not bring the absolute worst in each other and show humility, respect, and understanding. Even if we stand on two sides of the fence as enemies, the basic fundamental aspect of being human still unites us. Maybe it's not enough to stop this war, but maybe in the future it'd be enough to build more bridges and have more understanding.

 

[cricketjoshila]

Nehru and his letters.

He wrote to Rajendra Prasad asking him not to become president as Sardar didnot want him. A lie.

https://www.indiatoday.in/amp/fyi/s...t-of-india-rajagopalachari-1023047-2017-07-07



He wrote to S Radhakrishnan to not attend the funeral of Rajendra Prasad.

https://www.dailyo.in/lite/politics.../story/1/30636.html?__twitter_impression=true

 

[JaDed]

Nehru and his letters.

He wrote to Rajendra Prasad asking him not to become president as Sardar didnot want him. A lie.

https://www.indiatoday.in/amp/fyi/s...t-of-india-rajagopalachari-1023047-2017-07-07



He wrote to S Radhakrishnan to not attend the funeral of Rajendra Prasad.

https://www.dailyo.in/lite/politics.../story/1/30636.html?__twitter_impression=true

I make a lot of grammatical errors while writing posts here, many times I don’t even clarify.

Having said that the first article is one of the worst I have read in a while , doesn’t surprise me though India Today is just about employing anyone who can’t do the job correctly but all that matters is eye catching bias and seems just anyone can post anything from a book without the letter as proof lol.

 

[JaDed]

Tomorrow I’ m going to wirite an article and will paste from biased articles against MODI and Vajpayee.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.ou...arayanan-attacks-vajpayee-on-guj-riots/283297

 

[octavian]

I didn't now that there was a faction of Indians who didn't like Nehru. This is interesting.

Can the Indian friends shed some light on who killed Gandhi ?

 

[Napa]

I didn't now that there was a faction of Indians who didn't like Nehru. This is interesting.

Can the Indian friends shed some light on who killed Gandhi ?

The two most important facts about Nehru's tenure.

1) Majority of Indians below poverty line while he resided in his mini-palace at Teen Murti. At the same time East Asian countries with pragmatic non-socialist leaderships were experiencing spectacular increase in levels of income and wealth. The Indian economy rotted under his leadership.

2) Made a big deal of Panchsheel and "Hindi Chini Bhai Bhai" only to get slapped by them when they took away land by military force. Did not mount an effective response.

In out textbooks

we read about large percentage growth rates of industry during his time, but that was just due to the very low base the Indian industry was starting out from.

Godse.

 

[SakunaPataka]

Sorry for the delayed response

You cannot judge a religion based on the people who practice it. People are flawed and that's a fact. I didn't know much about Islam myself and recently I've been trying to learn more about it. It's fascinating how a lot of common beliefs that Muslims themselves have, have no real fundamental basis and have evolved over time out of nothing.

All religions are judged by the actions of their followers and it is not just Islam. If the religion has an extremely peace oriented belief system it will automatically show in its track record. BTW one religion that has an spotless record in this aspect is Jainism.

As an example, the first victim of power dynasties was the family of the Prophet (Sallalu alaihi wassalam) and that tells you a lot about how the Muslim world has fallen victim to power and let go of basic fundamental practices that were imperative to follow.

Please lookup what happened to the idols worshiped by paagans and who destroyed them.

Now, the second part claiming RSS = NAZISM isn't about comparing the atrocities that the Nazis carried out in the second half of their regime but the parallels of how it all started. How it went from patriotism and all things nice to an ultimate hatred for everyone that lives and breathes but doesn't share the same looks or opinions. Look around and tell me if that's not happening right now.

The tools of mass propaganda have become better and more personalized. If anything there aren't just two versions of an event, there are many and all of them are equally terrifying, horrible, and based on communal hatred.

Its been 94 yrs !! Surely thats enough time to inflict some serious damage ?

Lastly, as people, all we can do for each other is not bring the absolute worst in each other and show humility, respect, and understanding. Even if we stand on two sides of the fence as enemies, the basic fundamental aspect of being human still unites us. Maybe it's not enough to stop this war, but maybe in the future it'd be enough to build more bridges and have more understanding.

While all that is nice-speak reality is pretty ugly. I will use some posts right here on PP as evidence ... few weeks ago there was a thread where a Pakistani poster felt it was just prudent to proudly post pictures of a slain cow bleeding to death. The equivalent of this is perhaps someone painting Prophet. Who does that in India ? Can you show me one single RSS vigilante indulging in such a thing ?

Then there is countless posts taking pot shots at Hinduism/Hindus. One poster proudly proclaimed that Muslims introduced Culture/arts/architecture and things like that to India. Another poster said things to the effect of "We (Muslims) ruled them(Hindus) for fun for 100s of yrs" and I could go on and on.

What makes it damning is that these are all well educated posters some probably living in Western countries where no one talk and behaves like that. anyone with that mindset will be labelled as a rogue hill billy and dealt with accordingly.

 

[GoUgandaCranes]

Sorry for the delayed response



All religions are judged by the actions of their followers and it is not just Islam. If the religion has an extremely peace oriented belief system it will automatically show in its track record. BTW one religion that has an spotless record in this aspect is Jainism.



Please lookup what happened to the idols worshiped by paagans and who destroyed them.




Its been 94 yrs !! Surely thats enough time to inflict some serious damage ?




While all that is nice-speak reality is pretty ugly. I will use some posts right here on PP as evidence ... few weeks ago there was a thread where a Pakistani poster felt it was just prudent to proudly post pictures of a slain cow bleeding to death. The equivalent of this is perhaps someone painting Prophet. Who does that in India ? Can you show me one single RSS vigilante indulging in such a thing ?

Then there is countless posts taking pot shots at Hinduism/Hindus. One poster proudly proclaimed that Muslims introduced Culture/arts/architecture and things like that to India. Another poster said things to the effect of "We (Muslims) ruled them(Hindus) for fun for 100s of yrs" and I could go on and on.

What makes it damning is that these are all well educated posters some probably living in Western countries where no one talk and behaves like that. anyone with that mindset will be labelled as a rogue hill billy and dealt with accordingly.

Disagree with the first point, an ideology should only be judged for what it says. People will do whatever they can to act on their own interest and in most cases do not represent anything. If you want to judge an ideology, in-depth reading, analysis, and understanding rank higher than observation of people who practice it.

Islam is very clear on idol worship and I don't need to check what happened to the idols during a certain era and in a certain locality. Outside of that place and even in that era, the practice was allowed to continue and people are allowed to worship whichsoever idol they wanted.

It takes time for ideologies to develop into being a powerful entity of their own capable to inflict damage on others. In terms of age for a nation or an ideology, 94 years is mere infancy and you will continue to see the increased impact of this.

It is not allowed for a Muslim to hurl abuse, be insensitive, or say negative things to people of other beliefs no matter what they believe in. Posting hurtful images, being pompous about a past that you yourself are not even part of are part of personal idiosyncrasy and nothing else. I apologize to you personally from the things that have been said to you which have hurt your emotions here, there, or anywhere.

Trust me it hurts me that people who think of them as ambassadors of the religion or a country are unable to even hold a proper argument without stooping low and showing their lack of empathy. Empathetic smart people who don't believe in the same things as you are worthy rivals who ultimately raise the standard of humanity as a whole.

 

[Patriot]

Only the idols in the Kaaba were destroyed on the orders of the prophet SAW as it is the house of Allah and built by Adam AS and rebuilt by Ibrahim AS. Idolatry creeped in afterwards.

You can worship your idols anywhere but not in the Kaaba.

 

[SakunaPataka]

Disagree with the first point, an ideology should only be judged for what it says. People will do whatever they can to act on their own interest and in most cases do not represent anything. If you want to judge an ideology, in-depth reading, analysis, and understanding rank higher than observation of people who practice it.

Islam is very clear on idol worship and I don't need to check what happened to the idols during a certain era and in a certain locality. Outside of that place and even in that era, the practice was allowed to continue and people are allowed to worship whichsoever idol they wanted.

Idol worship was more or less eradicated from Saudi Arabia during the prophets time using brutal means. The Sahaba's then followed in his footsteps and the rest is history. It continues to this day and is the single biggest reason for animosity between Hindus and Muslims.

It takes time for ideologies to develop into being a powerful entity of their own capable to inflict damage on others. In terms of age for a nation or an ideology, 94 years is mere infancy and you will continue to see the increased impact of this.

The Nazi party in Germany lasted for about 25 yrs or so and killed Jews by the millions during that time. Since RSS is being compared to this ideology and it has been around for nearly 70 more years than the Nazi's were around for its a very valid question to ask for the casualty list.

It is not allowed for a Muslim to hurl abuse, be insensitive, or say negative things to people of other beliefs no matter what they believe in. Posting hurtful images, being pompous about a past that you yourself are not even part of are part of personal idiosyncrasy and nothing else. I apologize to you personally from the things that have been said to you which have hurt your emotions here, there, or anywhere.

Trust me it hurts me that people who think of them as ambassadors of the religion or a country are unable to even hold a proper argument without stooping low and showing their lack of empathy. Empathetic smart people who don't believe in the same things as you are worthy rivals who ultimately raise the standard of humanity as a whole.

You don't need to apologize for actions of others. Iam not offended in anyway. More worried about how even modern education isnt capable of fixing these behavioral problems.

Thanks for engaging in a meaningful debate.

 

[kk1992]

Idol worship was more or less eradicated from Saudi Arabia during the prophets time using brutal means. The Sahaba's then followed in his footsteps and the rest is history. It continues to this day and is the single biggest reason for animosity between Hindus and Muslims.




The Nazi party in Germany lasted for about 25 yrs or so and killed Jews by the millions during that time. Since RSS is being compared to this ideology and it has been around for nearly 70 more years than the Nazi's were around for its a very valid question to ask for the casualty list.




You don't need to apologize for actions of others. Iam not offended in anyway. More worried about how even modern education isnt capable of fixing these behavioral problems.

Thanks for engaging in a meaningful debate.

Dude, no one is hurling abuse at you or Hindus.

People are calling out RSS for what they are.

Many here believe they are not the true representative of Hindus, they are religiously motivated radicalized group who has perverted hinduism just like ISIS did with Islam. And your defense about that will be, how many times RSS has killed anyone, lol, it isn't a competition.

So please stop trying to mixing the abuse hurl at radicalized group as they deserve as if it is on Hindus.

 

[Thomaskutty]

1) Majority of Indians below poverty line while he resided in his mini-palace at Teen Murti. At the same time East Asian countries with pragmatic non-socialist leaderships were experiencing spectacular increase in levels of income and wealth. The Indian economy rotted under his leadership.

Nehru was flawed no doubt but I suppose we can sympathize with him a bit given that he was running a 300 million strong multicultural federation of diverse states.

How many of these east asian countries were democracies and not tiny homogenous autocracies, I wonder?

 

[Napa]

Nehru was flawed no doubt but I suppose we can sympathize with him a bit given that he was running a 300 million strong multicultural federation of diverse states.

How many of these east asian countries were democracies and not tiny homogenous autocracies, I wonder?

True that the challenges to a diverse large country are different from a "tiny homogenous autocracies" (not that South Korea, Japan, Taiwan and Malaysia should be thought of as tiny).

However, comparing India to India shows how deficient Nehru's leadership was. His "government controls the economy" socialism was responsible for the grinding poverty, whereas getting the government out of the economy post 1990 led to a massive decline in poverty, and a much improved cricket team too

 

[SakunaPataka]

Dude, no one is hurling abuse at you or RSS.

People are calling out RSS for what they are.

Many here believe they are not the true representative of Hindus, they are religiously motivated radicalized group who has perverted hinduism just like ISIS did with Islam. And your defense about that will be, how many times RSS has killed anyone, lol, it isn't a competition.

So please stop trying to mixing the abuse hurl at radicalized group as they deserve as if it is on Hindus.

So your argument is that since some Pakistanis believe RSS = religiously motivated radicalized Extremists we should just shut up and accept that as truth without asking for evidence ?

 

[kk1992]

So your argument is that since some Pakistanis believe RSS = religiously motivated radicalized Extremists we should just shut up and accept that as truth without asking for evidence ?

No amount of evidence will be enough similar to no amount of evidence will be enough for ISIS sympathizer.

Usually, most RSS supporters, require number of act they have committed, like I've said, it isn't a competition.

 

[SakunaPataka]

No amount of evidence will be enough similar to no amount of evidence will be enough for ISIS sympathizer.

Usually, most RSS supporters, require number of act they have committed, like I've said, it isn't a competition.

In the real world where I live hard evidences are required before making serious accusations. This is why you will find that no world body of any repute has imposed any sanctions on RSS. I suggest you come to terms with that bit of reality.

 

[kk1992]

In the real world where I live hard evidences are required before making serious accusations. This is why you will find that no world body of any repute has imposed any sanctions on RSS. I suggest you come to terms with that bit of reality.

Yea, was waiting for this comment too.

And you did not disappoint, weakness of most of the RSS supporters, keep repeating the sound bites and talking points.

As if sanctions are imposed on merit.

LOL.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

So your argument is that since some Pakistanis believe RSS = religiously motivated radicalized Extremists we should just shut up and accept that as truth without asking for evidence ?

It's not just Pakistanis, the rest of the world also holds the view that the RSS is an extremist Hindutva organisation, pretty sure a simple google search would back that up.

 

[SakunaPataka]

It's not just Pakistanis, the rest of the world also holds the view that the RSS is an extremist Hindutva organisation, pretty sure a simple google search would back that up.

lets see it then

 

[Technics 1210]

This was obvious to the discerning folk who actually read history.

RSS is a fascist right wing ideology which has taken influence from Nazism.

But hey, the world largest democracy voted for a Nazi sympathizer!

It's time Saffron terror is dealt in the same way as Nazism was!

 

[Thomaskutty]

However, comparing India to India shows how deficient Nehru's leadership was. His "government controls the economy" socialism was responsible for the grinding poverty, whereas getting the government out of the economy post 1990 led to a massive decline in poverty, and a much improved cricket team too

Nehru's economy and competence in that field was poor. Hindsight is a wonderful thing though. There wasn't a clear cut choice at that point in time. In the 1950s, the USSR was a superpower along with USA so you can understand if Nehru was seduced more by the egalitarian ideals and economic policies expressed by the soviet system, particularly when you consider that the US didn't even give their African origin citizens the right to vote until the 1960s.

He was terrible with Kashmir though, we can agree. He should have gone in with the indian army, thrown out the invaders and gained control of PoK easily. Instead, he stupidly went to the UN and the rest is history.

 

[Napa]

Nehru's economy and competence in that field was poor. Hindsight is a wonderful thing though. There wasn't a clear cut choice at that point in time. In the 1950s, the USSR was a superpower along with USA so you can understand if Nehru was seduced more by the egalitarian ideals and economic policies expressed by the soviet system, particularly when you consider that the US didn't even give their African origin citizens the right to vote until the 1960s.

He was terrible with Kashmir though, we can agree. He should have gone in with the indian army, thrown out the invaders and gained control of PoK easily. Instead, he stupidly went to the UN and the rest is history.

A wiser leader would have figured out what was not working for the economy in a few years, rather than continue his deleterious economic policies for his lifetime, and even past his funeral pyre through by making it possible for his daughter to carry on his wretched policies.

I totally agree with you about Kashmir.

 

[Napa]

Nehru's economy and competence in that field was poor. Hindsight is a wonderful thing though. There wasn't a clear cut choice at that point in time. In the 1950s, the USSR was a superpower along with USA so you can understand if Nehru was seduced more by the egalitarian ideals and economic policies expressed by the soviet system, particularly when you consider that the US didn't even give their African origin citizens the right to vote until the 1960s.

He was terrible with Kashmir though, we can agree. He should have gone in with the indian army, thrown out the invaders and gained control of PoK easily. Instead, he stupidly went to the UN and the rest is history.

A wiser leader would have figured out what was not working for the economy in a few years, rather than continue his deleterious economic policies for his lifetime, and even past his funeral pyre through by making it possible for his daughter to carry on his wretched policies.

I totally agree with you about Kashmir.

 

[Professor]

lets see it then

It took one google search to find this: https://www.dw.com/en/germanys-india-envoy-visits-nazi-inspired-hindu-group/a-49682304.

This article describes RSS as a Nazi inspired Hindu extremist group. Correct me if I am wrong but I don’t think Deutsche Welle is a Pakistani network. So clearly it’s not just Pakistan that sees RSS as a extremist outfit.

 

[kk1992]

It took one google search to find this: https://www.dw.com/en/germanys-india-envoy-visits-nazi-inspired-hindu-group/a-49682304.

This article describes RSS as a Nazi inspired Hindu extremist group. Correct me if I am wrong but I don’t think Deutsche Welle is a Pakistani network. So clearly it’s not just Pakistan that sees RSS as a extremist outfit.

Fake article.
Author hates India
They have an agenda
How many people have RSS killed

some of the excuses.

 

[SakunaPataka]

It took one google search to find this: https://www.dw.com/en/germanys-india-envoy-visits-nazi-inspired-hindu-group/a-49682304.

This article describes RSS as a Nazi inspired Hindu extremist group. Correct me if I am wrong but I don’t think Deutsche Welle is a Pakistani network. So clearly it’s not just Pakistan that sees RSS as a extremist outfit.

So how many concentration camps/mass graves did the German ambassador find during his visit to the RSS HQ in Nagpur ?

 

[SakunaPataka]

Disagree with the first point, an ideology should only be judged for what it says. People will do whatever they can to act on their own interest and in most cases do not represent anything. If you want to judge an ideology, in-depth reading, analysis, and understanding rank higher than observation of people who practice it.

Islam is very clear on idol worship and I don't need to check what happened to the idols during a certain era and in a certain locality. Outside of that place and even in that era, the practice was allowed to continue and people are allowed to worship whichsoever idol they wanted.

It takes time for ideologies to develop into being a powerful entity of their own capable to inflict damage on others. In terms of age for a nation or an ideology, 94 years is mere infancy and you will continue to see the increased impact of this.

It is not allowed for a Muslim to hurl abuse, be insensitive, or say negative things to people of other beliefs no matter what they believe in. Posting hurtful images, being pompous about a past that you yourself are not even part of are part of personal idiosyncrasy and nothing else. I apologize to you personally from the things that have been said to you which have hurt your emotions here, there, or anywhere.

Trust me it hurts me that people who think of them as ambassadors of the religion or a country are unable to even hold a proper argument without stooping low and showing their lack of empathy. Empathetic smart people who don't believe in the same things as you are worthy rivals who ultimately raise the standard of humanity as a whole.

another day and another Muslim saying it like it is .... bindaas no compunctions no qualms.

Honestly, people who worship multi-headed gods and monkeys in this day and age cannot be taken seriously.