What's new

Junaid Jamshed and Saeed Anwar's tax issues

If citizens, especially wealthy citizens, refuse to pay their taxes how can anyone expect society to progress?
 
Bump. This has been doing the rounds on social media for the last few days(and I'm surprised there's a thread on this already) and in light of recent developments, I guess it's pertinent to ask why the double standards? Public response has been overwhelmingly defensive with most people trying to justify blatant tax evasion, by people who claim to be imparting good moral values no less. Most of the people trying to justify are the same people baying for the Nooras' blood because of his own corruption which says something about our hypocrisy as a nation. The most common excuses so far are that since the government is corrupt, there's no point paying taxes because, simply put, even if the government is corrupt a private citizen can not just choose not to pay their taxes because if they're doing that, how are they any less corrupt and what moral standing do they have to question the government's corruption? The other most common excuse is that the only tax "we", as Muslims, are required to pay is zakat and any other taxes are against Islam anyway so this is justified.

The article linked in OP has apparently been deleted but copies of the actual tax returns are doing the rounds on facebook and according to them, Saeed Anwar paid no tax at all despite having properties valued at tens of millions of Rupees and him being a resident of DHA Karachi while the late JJ paid roughly Rs. 53000 in income tax when his business has 54 locations in Pakistan alone(on top of several in the middle east and elsewhere) which comes down to less than Rs. 1000 per store which boggles the mind.

My question is, why the two different standards? Why do some people get a free pass on this sort of thing while others don't? Before someone goes down the 'oh NS is a public official and the money he stole was the people's money', the tax money these people stole is also public money since any tax money, by definition, is public property and if you're stealing taxes, even if you're not an elected official, you're stealing from the nation as a whole. Do the people who justify tax evasion on account of the government's corruption not use the roads made using that tax money, power generated and distributed using tax financed infrastructure, security provided by a tax funded military? While there may be corruption and some money may be stolen, the vast majority of public services and infrastructure, regardless of their quality, rely on tax receipts and if you're justifying tax evasion, how are you any less of a thief?
 
Very few people will pay tax voluntarily, not even those who supposedly fear the wrath of the Lord. It all comes down to rules being rules and being enforced transparently and consistently regardless of who the individual is or whether they are a celebrity of some sort.
 
Cpt. Rishwat said:
Very few people will pay tax voluntarily, not even those who supposedly fear the wrath of the Lord. It all comes down to rules being rules and being enforced transparently and consistently regardless of who the individual is or whether they are a celebrity of some sort.
Click to expand...

Pay tax means giving money to NS so hen Can invest in his business. I see No Reason to pay tax in Pakistan.
 
The one appreciable thing about this government is the danda they're giving on tax. But Pakistanis are Pakistanis, the government introduced a tax on cash withdrawing cash from bank and the brilliant minds of Pakistan made their own currency.
 
Moiza said:
The one appreciable thing about this government is the danda they're giving on tax. But Pakistanis are Pakistanis, the government introduced a tax on cash withdrawing cash from bank and the brilliant minds of Pakistan made their own currency.
Click to expand...

Tax is the only source of income for governments unless you get gifts from 'friendly nations' which don't really come without strings attached.
 
Cpt. Rishwat said:
Very few people will pay tax voluntarily, not even those who supposedly fear the wrath of the Lord. It all comes down to rules being rules and being enforced transparently and consistently regardless of who the individual is or whether they are a celebrity of some sort.
Click to expand...

Speak for yourself.

In Pakistan its not hard at all to evade taxes but many people including yours truly file their taxes annually
 
Noman said:
Pay tax means giving money to NS so hen Can invest in his business. I see No Reason to pay tax in Pakistan.
Click to expand...

Exactly the kind of rubbish I was referring to. Regardless of Nawaz's crimes, you are still obliged under Pakistani law, as a citizen of Pakistan, to pay your taxes and whatever excuse you make to justify theft, if you're evading taxes you're just as much of a thief as Nawaz, only on a much smaller level and, as such, have no moral standing to call him out when you're guilty of the same crime he is.
 
Slog said:
Speak for yourself.

In Pakistan its not hard at all to evade taxes but many people including yours truly file their taxes annually
Click to expand...

Good for you. Maybe we should just leave things as they are in Pakistan then and let people make their own minds up how and when they pay. Over here the govt tends to take matters into it's own hands and enforce strictly and it seems to work out quite well.
 
Cpt. Rishwat said:
Very few people will pay tax voluntarily, not even those who supposedly fear the wrath of the Lord. It all comes down to rules being rules and being enforced transparently and consistently regardless of who the individual is or whether they are a celebrity of some sort.
Click to expand...

Many do, including myself. If I, a liberal fascist Indian agent can pay money to the Pakistani state because it is required under the law, why can't these supposedly pious multimillionaires that tens of millions of Pakistanis turn to as a source of moral and spiritual guidance. While failure to collect taxes is indeed the government's failure, I'm looking at the other side of the issue i.e. the people. Just because you can get away with crime doesn't justify the crime itself and in the Pakistani context, this angle needs to be explored in more detail because the vast majority of Pakistanis are guilty of the same crime they demand accountability from their government for, so if we use their own logic, apart from 760'000 odd Pakistanis, does anyone really have any moral standing to demand accountability of corrupt politicians when they're just as corrupt themselves, the only difference being scale and that too only because that's something beyond their control.
 
Noman said:
Pay tax means giving money to NS so hen Can invest in his business. I see No Reason to pay tax in Pakistan.
Click to expand...
Then why cry about no roads, no health facilities, no electricity, no police then?
 
DW44 said:
Many do, including myself. If I, a liberal fascist Indian agent can pay money to the Pakistani state because it is required under the law, why can't these supposedly pious multimillionaires that tens of millions of Pakistanis turn to as a source of moral and spiritual guidance. While failure to collect taxes is indeed the government's failure, I'm looking at the other side of the issue i.e. the people. Just because you can get away with crime doesn't justify the crime itself and in the Pakistani context, this angle needs to be explored in more detail because the vast majority of Pakistanis are guilty of the same crime they demand accountability from their government for, so if we use their own logic, apart from 760'000 odd Pakistanis, does anyone really have any moral standing to demand accountability of corrupt politicians when they're just as corrupt themselves, the only difference being scale and that too only because that's something beyond their control.
Click to expand...

I'm sure there are plenty of bearded hypocrites running around evading tax, I see them over here as well. That's the beauty of applying the law without prejudice. The law doesn't care who you are if it's applied properly. If it's not, and there are no checks and adequate enforcements in place, then of course you will find people deciding they would rather keep that money.
 
Cpt. Rishwat said:
I'm sure there are plenty of bearded hypocrites running around evading tax, I see them over here as well. That's the beauty of applying the law without prejudice. The law doesn't care who you are if it's applied properly. If it's not, and there are no checks and adequate enforcements in place, then of course you will find people deciding they would rather keep that money.
Click to expand...

You're missing the point. The government's failure to collect taxes has been discussed to death and is beyond dispute, I'm specifically concerned with the other side i.e. the people's failures. In the simplest possible terms, what I'm asking is what moral grounds does thief A, who goes out of his way to justify thief B's actions, have to demand accountability of thief C when all three are guilty of stealing the same thing from the same victim(public money for the Pakistani people)? No one's denying that in the absence of an effective tax collection mechanism, people will evade taxes but that's besides the point here because what I'm concerned with is the hypocrisy of the same people claiming the moral high ground over someone like, say, Asif Zardari when the only difference between their crimes is that of magnitude and only because Zardari was lucky enough to be in the right place at the right time.
 
Last edited:
DW44 said:
You're missing the point. The government's failure to collect taxes has been discussed to death and is beyond dispute, I'm specifically concerned with the other side i.e. the people's failures. In the simplest possible terms, what I'm asking is what moral grounds does thief A, who goes out of his way to justify thief B's actions, have to demand accountability of thief C when all three are guilty of stealing the same thing from the same victim(public money for the Pakistani people)? No one's denying that in the absence of an effective tax collection mechanism, people will evade taxes but that's besides the point here because what I'm concerned with is the hypocrisy of the same people claiming the moral high ground over someone like, say, Asif Zardari when the only difference between their crimes is that of magnitude and only because Zardari was lucky enough to be in the right place at the right time.
Click to expand...

Who are these people who are justifying tax evasion? Anybody of note or are we talking about people in general?
 
DW44 said:
Many do, including myself. If I, a liberal fascist Indian agent can pay money to the Pakistani state because it is required under the law, why can't these supposedly pious multimillionaires that tens of millions of Pakistanis turn to as a source of moral and spiritual guidance. While failure to collect taxes is indeed the government's failure, I'm looking at the other side of the issue i.e. the people. Just because you can get away with crime doesn't justify the crime itself and in the Pakistani context, this angle needs to be explored in more detail because the vast majority of Pakistanis are guilty of the same crime they demand accountability from their government for, so if we use their own logic, apart from 760'000 odd Pakistanis, does anyone really have any moral standing to demand accountability of corrupt politicians when they're just as corrupt themselves, the only difference being scale and that too only because that's something beyond their control.
Click to expand...

I agree tax should be paid but the govt that asks them to pay it has no moral authority to ask them and therin lies the problem with having a crooked PM- a man whose main interest lies stealing from the few that do pay taxes and making sure that he and his coterie of crooks pay no tax. The PM of PK cannot ask anyone to pay taxes because he hasnt paid his fair share.
 
Bewal Express said:
I agree tax should be paid but the govt that asks them to pay it has no moral authority to ask them and therin lies the problem with having a crooked PM- a man whose main interest lies stealing from the few that do pay taxes and making sure that he and his coterie of crooks pay no tax. The PM of PK cannot ask anyone to pay taxes because he hasnt paid his fair share.
Click to expand...

You've got the order wrong here, the PM is answerable to the people, not the other way round but the PM, ultimately, is from the people and thieves will naturally elect thieves. Now the problem arises when these thieves feign righteousness and demand that the thief they elected be held accountable for his theft while justifying their own theft by citing the PM's crime. Problem is that the PM's not the one losing out to this theft, ordinary Pakistanis are. The PM can steal money from any number of other sources, not to mention the wealth he(and others like Zardari) has already accumulated. Charity starts at home and so does accountability so my point here is that apart from ~800'000 people out of well over 200 million, what moral grounds does the common man have for demanding accountability when not only is he guilty of the same crime and open about it but actually has the gall to defend himself and those he deems worthy(the Tableeghis in this case)?

Nation states live and die by their people, politicians are corrupt everywhere but ultimately, the people hold a lot more power than they get credit for even in a place like Pakistan. Ten years ago, the army, an institution that is far less accountable and far more powerful than any elected government, was brought to it's knees and it's personnel couldn't wear their uniforms in public when the people turned on them. Compare that to today where they can get away with just about anything you can imagine because the people stand by them.
 
Anyone not paying taxes is stealing so all their income is Haram. What the rulers do is secondary but according to islamic rules all your income is Haram.

Sent from the mobile client - Forum Talker
 
DW44 said:
You've got the order wrong here, the PM is answerable to the people, not the other way round but the PM, ultimately, is from the people and thieves will naturally elect thieves. Now the problem arises when these thieves feign righteousness and demand that the thief they elected be held accountable for his theft while justifying their own theft by citing the PM's crime. Problem is that the PM's not the one losing out to this theft, ordinary Pakistanis are. The PM can steal money from any number of other sources, not to mention the wealth he(and others like Zardari) has already accumulated. Charity starts at home and so does accountability so my point here is that apart from ~800'000 people out of well over 200 million, what moral grounds does the common man have for demanding accountability when not only is he guilty of the same crime and open about it but actually has the gall to defend himself and those he deems worthy(the Tableeghis in this case)?

Nation states live and die by their people, politicians are corrupt everywhere but ultimately, the people hold a lot more power than they get credit for even in a place like Pakistan. Ten years ago, the army, an institution that is far less accountable and far more powerful than any elected government, was brought to it's knees and it's personnel couldn't wear their uniforms in public when the people turned on them. Compare that to today where they can get away with just about anything you can imagine because the people stand by them.
Click to expand...

What about the PM that steals elections and forget the crap that they didn't, the Panama scandal has shown that the Nooras have destroyed every institution and without a shadow of a doubt they stole the election, which makes your other points moot. In the UK i pay taxes and i am glad that i do because my money is not stolen and i am provided services, in PK what services does the govt provide with the taxes they do collect. Can you give some examples of services that the govt provides to its people?
 
Bewal Express said:
What about the PM that steals elections and forget the crap that they didn't, the Panama scandal has shown that the Nooras have destroyed every institution and without a shadow of a doubt they stole the election, which makes your other points moot. In the UK i pay taxes and i am glad that i do because my money is not stolen and i am provided services, in PK what services does the govt provide with the taxes they do collect. Can you give some examples of services that the govt provides to its people?
Click to expand...

By now it has been established that the extent of rigging wasn't nearly enough to alter the results wholesale. All it achieved was to tilt the scales even further in their favor but rigging or no rigging, they were winning it either way so the point about him not being a true representative of the people is invalid. The Nooras have benefited from broken institutions but they're not the ones who destroyed them, they inherited a broken system and made the most of it, just like Zardari did, and Mush before him and so on.

It's a myth that paying taxes to a corrupt government is pointless because even a corrupt government provides many essential services that you or I may not use because I can afford to pay for better quality services through the private sector and you don't even live here but millions of poor people still utilize the admittedly poor quality public services like healthcare(despite it's poor quality, public sector healthcare is not nonexistent), the roads we drive on(quality varies), the electricity we use, subsidies to farmers(agriculture employs a ridiculously high percentage of Pakistani citizens), direct cash transfers to the poorest. Now all of these services are of an extremely poor quality and rife with corruption but that corruption is just as pervasive at the lower levels as it is at the top and it's extremely disingenuous to ignore the fact that between the rampant tax evasion and the military getting first dibs on the budget, there's so little to spend on them that even an entire government imported from, say, Iceland would only be able to bring about a marginal improvement unless tax collection increases and I assure you that people won't suddenly start paying tax voluntarily if that happens. While Pakistanis may try to claim that the reason they avoid taxes is because the government is corrupt, do you really think they wouldn't if it wasn't?
 
DW44 said:
By now it has been established that the extent of rigging wasn't nearly enough to alter the results wholesale. All it achieved was to tilt the scales even further in their favor but rigging or no rigging, they were winning it either way so the point about him not being a true representative of the people is invalid. The Nooras have benefited from broken institutions but they're not the ones who destroyed them, they inherited a broken system and made the most of it, just like Zardari did, and Mush before him and so on.

It's a myth that paying taxes to a corrupt government is pointless because even a corrupt government provides many essential services that you or I may not use because I can afford to pay for better quality services through the private sector and you don't even live here but millions of poor people still utilize the admittedly poor quality public services like healthcare(despite it's poor quality, public sector healthcare is not nonexistent), the roads we drive on(quality varies), the electricity we use, subsidies to farmers(agriculture employs a ridiculously high percentage of Pakistani citizens), direct cash transfers to the poorest. Now all of these services are of an extremely poor quality and rife with corruption but that corruption is just as pervasive at the lower levels as it is at the top and it's extremely disingenuous to ignore the fact that between the rampant tax evasion and the military getting first dibs on the budget, there's so little to spend on them that even an entire government imported from, say, Iceland would only be able to bring about a marginal improvement unless tax collection increases and I assure you that people won't suddenly start paying tax voluntarily if that happens. While Pakistanis may try to claim that the reason they avoid taxes is because the government is corrupt, do you really think they wouldn't if it wasn't?
Click to expand...

I totally disagree with the concept of paying hard earnt cash to corrupt thugs whose only interest is to steal. If you want to pay then that's your right but i see it as my responsibility to give directly to people rather than the govt who are in power to steal more.
As the case in the Sc showed, the Nooras totally destroyed NAB and FBR, what makes you think that hadn't brought of the ECP, especially in the light of the ECP holding off a decision in the IK case until the SC has decided the Panama case. You seem to be an intelligent guy, you know exactly what they are up to. Lets stop the pretence that this is a legitimate govt, even by your measure of small rigging they are illegitimate, one vote stolen with acquiescence of the leadership of the Sharifs should have landed them in jail.
 
Cpt. Rishwat said:
Very few people will pay tax voluntarily, not even those who supposedly fear the wrath of the Lord. It all comes down to rules being rules and being enforced transparently and consistently regardless of who the individual is or whether they are a celebrity of some sort.
Click to expand...

Absolutely spot on!! Even in western countries people don't pay taxes voluntarily, strict laws and their proper implementation without any exceptions is the only way people will pay taxes. There are plenty of people in Pakistan who still pay their due taxes but numbers are not enough to make significant difference.

It all comes down to how much ruling elite is serious about implementing laws (without getting into Nawaz-Zardari discussion again).
 
Last edited:
DW44 said:
By now it has been established that the extent of rigging wasn't nearly enough to alter the results wholesale. All it achieved was to tilt the scales even further in their favor but rigging or no rigging, they were winning it either way so the point about him not being a true representative of the people is invalid. The Nooras have benefited from broken institutions but they're not the ones who destroyed them, they inherited a broken system and made the most of it, just like Zardari did, and Mush before him and so on.

It's a myth that paying taxes to a corrupt government is pointless because even a corrupt government provides many essential services that you or I may not use because I can afford to pay for better quality services through the private sector and you don't even live here but millions of poor people still utilize the admittedly poor quality public services like healthcare(despite it's poor quality, public sector healthcare is not nonexistent), the roads we drive on(quality varies), the electricity we use, subsidies to farmers(agriculture employs a ridiculously high percentage of Pakistani citizens), direct cash transfers to the poorest. Now all of these services are of an extremely poor quality and rife with corruption but that corruption is just as pervasive at the lower levels as it is at the top and it's extremely disingenuous to ignore the fact that between the rampant tax evasion and the military getting first dibs on the budget, there's so little to spend on them that even an entire government imported from, say, Iceland would only be able to bring about a marginal improvement unless tax collection increases and I assure you that people won't suddenly start paying tax voluntarily if that happens. While Pakistanis may try to claim that the reason they avoid taxes is because the government is corrupt, do you really think they wouldn't if it wasn't?
Click to expand...

Very good post! People in Pakistan are somehow under the impression that all their tax money goes in the pockets of the Sharifs and completely ignore the services they get.
 
Bewal Express said:
I totally disagree with the concept of paying hard earnt cash to corrupt thugs whose only interest is to steal. If you want to pay then that's your right but i see it as my responsibility to give directly to people rather than the govt who are in power to steal more.
Click to expand...
It's not as simple. Even corrupt thugs whose only intent is to steal provide certain services that would otherwise not exist. The roads, public hospitals, police, airports and railroads didn't spring out of existence spontaneously because the very simple fact that self declared crusaders against corruption disregard, intentionally or unknowingly, is that it's never all or nothing. Even the most corrupt government provides certain services that are tax funded and if you're holding out, you're just as much of a thief as those you're trying to claim the moral high ground over. I am intimately familiar with the Pakistani psyche and I don't for a second buy this act that people put on about not paying taxes being the right thing to do since it will be wasted anyway and just because it's beneath you, as someone who's making enough to pay taxes, to use second rate public sector services, for tens of millions of Pakistanis those same services can be the difference between life and death. The quality is poor, granted, but that has as much to do with the thieves not paying taxes as it does with the other thieves taking a chunk out of whatever little tax is paid.


As the case in the Sc showed, the Nooras totally destroyed NAB and FBR, what makes you think that hadn't brought of the ECP, especially in the light of the ECP holding off a decision in the IK case until the SC has decided the Panama case. You seem to be an intelligent guy, you know exactly what they are up to. Lets stop the pretence that this is a legitimate govt, even by your measure of small rigging they are illegitimate, one vote stolen with acquiescence of the leadership of the Sharifs should have landed them in jail.
Click to expand...
FBR and NAB were a joke to begin with so what they did to those institutions was akin to destroying an a car that has already been totaled. Obviously that doesn't justify what they did and they should be held accountable for their own crimes but they are answerable to the people and the people are no better than them so we have ourselves a bit of a catch 22 situation. As far as the legitimacy of the government is concerned, the elections may very well be tainted but that's a fact of life in Pakistan and this is the closest thing we can possibly have to a legitimate government. If you're expecting elections here to conform to western standards, you might have to wait a few centuries because at this point, it serves the interests of all stakeholders to maintain this status quo and at the end of the day, you work with what you have not what you wish you had.
 
Last edited:
DW44 said:
It's not as simple. Even corrupt thugs whose only intent is to steal provide certain services that would otherwise not exist. The roads, public hospitals, police, airports and railroads didn't spring out of existence spontaneously because the very simple fact that self declared crusaders against corruption disregard, intentionally or unknowingly, is that it's never all or nothing. Even the most corrupt government provides certain services that are tax funded and if you're holding out, you're just as much of a thief as those you're trying to claim the moral high ground over. I am intimately familiar with the Pakistani psyche and I don't for a second buy this act that people put on about not paying taxes being the right thing to do since it will be wasted anyway and just because it's beneath you, as someone who's making enough to pay taxes, to use second rate public sector services, for tens of millions of Pakistanis those same services can be the difference between life and death. The quality is poor, granted, but that has as much to do with the thieves not paying taxes as it does with the other thieves taking a chunk out of whatever little tax is paid.



FBR and NAB were a joke to begin with so what they did to those institutions was akin to destroying an a car that has already been totaled. Obviously that doesn't justify what they did and they should be held accountable for their own crimes but they are answerable to the people and the people are no better than them so we have ourselves a bit of a catch 22 situation. As far as the legitimacy of the government is concerned, the elections may very well be tainted but that's a fact of life in Pakistan and this is the closest thing we can possibly have to a legitimate government. If you're expecting elections here to conform to western standards, you might have to wait a few centuries because at this point, it serves the interests of all stakeholders to maintain this status quo and at the end of the day, you work with what you have not what you wish you had.
Click to expand...

I agree that many people dont pay taxes because they can get away with it but if you take this point to its logical conclusion, its our corrupt politicians who take bribes to make the tax bill go away. The Nooras and the PPP and corrupt people in the army have created a system whereby they and there friends dont pay taxes. But you want everyone else to pay.
As far as your point goes about the election, i dont buy it for one moment. They fought tooth and nail to avoid opening the constituencies where fraud took place knowing full well that they had been rumbled. To cover up the head of Nadra was forced out and you want people to pay taxes out of duty so that these criminals can buy homes on Dubai and London. As far the poor services that are provided, well they charge enough in indirect taxes to cover for those.
You say that people should held accountable in FBR and NAB but by whom. Isnt that the job of govt, oh i forgot they are the ones that appointed the criminals in the 1st place so that they could cover up their criminality. I await to be proved wrong but the SC is cut from the same cloth, and the verdict will be more of the same.

I sincerely believe that millions more would pay taxes of they trusted the leaders. Not everybody would do so but as has been shown with the billions contributed to Edhi and the cancer hospitals, people do come on board when they know the money won't be stolen.
 
Bewal Express said:
As far as your point goes about the election, i dont buy it for one moment. They fought tooth and nail to avoid opening the constituencies where fraud took place knowing full well that they had been rumbled. To cover up the head of Nadra was forced out and you want people to pay taxes out of duty so that these criminals can buy homes on Dubai and London. As far the poor services that are provided, well they charge enough in indirect taxes to cover for those.
You say that people should held accountable in FBR and NAB but by whom. Isnt that the job of govt, oh i forgot they are the ones that appointed the criminals in the 1st place so that they could cover up their criminality. I await to be proved wrong but the SC is cut from the same cloth, and the verdict will be more of the same.
Click to expand...
They caught tooth and nail against it because they were guilty and would lose a lot of power, not to mention the legal ramifications a guilty verdict would have but that's besides the point because the rigging didn't have enough of an impact to actually alter the overall result i.e. they would still have won even if the election was clean, just not with as big a mandate.

The point about indirect taxation is completely wrong because they don't make up for even a fraction of the shortfall from avoidance of income taxes. When it's all added up, Pakistan's tax receipts come in at around 8-9% of GDP which is pitiful even by third world standards so indirect taxation is merely a minor inconvenience for the daylight robbers who get away with not paying a lot more than they do in indirect taxes while unnecessarily burdening those below them on the economic ladder do they're stealing from the people.


sincerely believe that millions more would pay taxes of they trusted the leaders. Not everybody would do so but as has been shown with the billions contributed to Edhi and the cancer hospitals, people do come on board when they know the money won't be stolen.
Click to expand...
I sincerely doubt that. It's all well and good to buy a clean conscience by giving a few hundred rupees to Edhi or SKMH from time to time but lets not kid ourselves, if paying a certain amount of every paycheck to Edhi was made mandatory, it would take about three days before people started finding ways to avoid paying. The Pakistani psyche and culture is very different to what you have in the UK and it's a rather important factor to not take into account when discussing an issue like this.
 
This discussion has gone off on a bit of a tangent. The real question is (or was), why are people willing to give the two luminaries in the thread title the carte blanche to evade taxes, when lesser mortals, not active in a certain extracurricular activity which these two exalted personages indulge in, would find themselves (rightly) castigated for the same crime of omission?
 
I started looking at the sort of discussions taking place elsewhere on this issue. Most of the thoughts expressed are variants of "their other good deeds offset the tax evasion," and "(insert name of political villain of choice) doesn't pay any taxes either."

The first one really leaves me marveling at this unique juxtaposition of pious mercantilism, shrewd tax evasion and rigorous proselytization, and questioning exactly how one would go about calculating how much of a tax credit their "good deeds" translate to. Somewhere there is an accountant who specializes in such a rate of exchange.
 
Couch Cricketer said:
Anyone not paying taxes is stealing so all their income is Haram. What the rulers do is secondary but according to islamic rules all your income is Haram.

Sent from the mobile client - Forum Talker
Click to expand...

Hang on , how ?

isam has no tax system apart from zakaat. Last time I checked
 
Nostalgic said:
This discussion has gone off on a bit of a tangent. The real question is (or was), why are people willing to give the two luminaries in the thread title the carte blanche to evade taxes
Click to expand...
Because they're Tableeghias and therefore they're always right, even when they're wrong. I once referred to them as parasites(on a Saeed Anwar thread ironically enough) and this information just gives a whole new meaning to that label.

when lesser mortals, not active in a certain extracurricular activity which these two exalted personages indulge in, would find themselves (rightly) castigated for the same crime of omission?
Click to expand...
The only people who would actually be castigated for tax theft are high profile public figures. Everyone else gets a free pass because they have a convenient justification in the government's corruption, never mind the irony of these thieves going after the politicos for being corrupt.
 
DW44 said:
Bump. This has been doing the rounds on social media for the last few days(and I'm surprised there's a thread on this already) and in light of recent developments, I guess it's pertinent to ask why the double standards? Public response has been overwhelmingly defensive with most people trying to justify blatant tax evasion, by people who claim to be imparting good moral values no less. Most of the people trying to justify are the same people baying for the Nooras' blood because of his own corruption which says something about our hypocrisy as a nation. The most common excuses so far are that since the government is corrupt, there's no point paying taxes because, simply put, even if the government is corrupt a private citizen can not just choose not to pay their taxes because if they're doing that, how are they any less corrupt and what moral standing do they have to question the government's corruption? The other most common excuse is that the only tax "we", as Muslims, are required to pay is zakat and any other taxes are against Islam anyway so this is justified.

The article linked in OP has apparently been deleted but copies of the actual tax returns are doing the rounds on facebook and according to them, Saeed Anwar paid no tax at all despite having properties valued at tens of millions of Rupees and him being a resident of DHA Karachi while the late JJ paid roughly Rs. 53000 in income tax when his business has 54 locations in Pakistan alone(on top of several in the middle east and elsewhere) which comes down to less than Rs. 1000 per store which boggles the mind.

My question is, why the two different standards? Why do some people get a free pass on this sort of thing while others don't? Before someone goes down the 'oh NS is a public official and the money he stole was the people's money', the tax money these people stole is also public money since any tax money, by definition, is public property and if you're stealing taxes, even if you're not an elected official, you're stealing from the nation as a whole. Do the people who justify tax evasion on account of the government's corruption not use the roads made using that tax money, power generated and distributed using tax financed infrastructure, security provided by a tax funded military? While there may be corruption and some money may be stolen, the vast majority of public services and infrastructure, regardless of their quality, rely on tax receipts and if you're justifying tax evasion, how are you any less of a thief?
Click to expand...

incredible. Why people act like angels if they have faults?
 
To quote a FB comment:

'Aarzi dunya hai, kesay taxes?'

:))
 
Nostalgic said:
This discussion has gone off on a bit of a tangent. The real question is (or was), why are people willing to give the two luminaries in the thread title the carte blanche to evade taxes, when lesser mortals, not active in a certain extracurricular activity which these two exalted personages indulge in, would find themselves (rightly) castigated for the same crime of omission?
Click to expand...

The two luminaries should be paying their taxes full stop. If they aren't then good luck to them or any other celebrity, jihadi, transexual or Buddhist monk who can get away with it. What people say on social media or in their living rooms is of no consequence really other than point scoring on ideological reasons rather than fixing a broken system.
 
Government lacks any moral credibility to impose taxes on common people, that's what it comes down to. When people have faith in their government they will start paying taxes.
 
Cpt. Rishwat said:
What people say on social media or in their living rooms is of no consequence really other than point scoring on ideological reasons rather than fixing a broken system.
Click to expand...

I beg to differ. It is of consequence, because the ideological point-scoring is of consequence. It reveals much about how at least a section of society is willing to look the other way from crimes big and small if the perpetrator subscribes to a certain ideology, engages in a certain activity, and dresses and looks and speaks a certain way. In years past, such a perpetrator would be labeled a hypocrite. Now people are urging us to take their "good deeds" into account, and somehow weigh those against the tax evasion before passing judgement.
 
DW44 said:
Because they're Tableeghias and therefore they're always right, even when they're wrong. I once referred to them as parasites(on a Saeed Anwar thread ironically enough) and this information just gives a whole new meaning to that label.

The only people who would actually be castigated for tax theft are high profile public figures. Everyone else gets a free pass because they have a convenient justification in the government's corruption, never mind the irony of these thieves going after the politicos for being corrupt.
Click to expand...

In which case, let me rephrase the question and ask why Tableeghias are given the carte blanche to evade taxes, when non-Tableeghia high-profile lesser mortals would be rightly castigated for the same crime of omission?

Its more of a rhetorical question really, because we know the answer. Because Tableegh.
 
Nostalgic said:
I beg to differ. It is of consequence, because the ideological point-scoring is of consequence. It reveals much about how at least a section of society is willing to look the other way from crimes big and small if the perpetrator subscribes to a certain ideology, engages in a certain activity, and dresses and looks and speaks a certain way. In years past, such a perpetrator would be labeled a hypocrite. Now people are urging us to take their "good deeds" into account, and somehow weigh those against the tax evasion before passing judgement.
Click to expand...

But of course while it may win you some points on the you vs me hypocrisy scoreboard, it's not actually going to address the issue which is tax evasion.
 
Cpt. Rishwat said:
But of course while it may win you some points on the you vs me hypocrisy scoreboard, it's not actually going to address the issue which is tax evasion.
Click to expand...

It won't address the issue of tax evasion, but to me the hypocritical attitude towards the Tableeghias is an issue in and of itself.
 
Nostalgic said:
It won't address the issue of tax evasion, but to me the hypocritical attitude towards the Tableeghias is an issue in and of itself.
Click to expand...

I will agree with you on that. That's a subject in itself how people square with themselves thieving or any other sort of immoral behaviour while presenting a show of religious faith. I often think it's a good argument in itself for strictly secular rule, that way no one can hide behind a beard or a burka, the law is the law and it makes no exception for the faithful.
 
perhaps if people paid all their taxes they be more inclined to do something about the corrupt leaders.
 
On an average yearly salary of $1500, how much of the population does come under the tax net?

Anyone know the tax bands for Pakistan?
 
"unique juxtaposition of pious mercantilism, shrewd tax evasion and rigorous proselytization"

These words reminded me of that scene from "my name is Anthony gonsalves" sung by amitabh bachchan (Amar Akbar Anthony )
 
dirk diggler said:
"unique juxtaposition of pious mercantilism, shrewd tax evasion and rigorous proselytization"

These words reminded me of that scene from "my name is Anthony gonsalves" sung by amitabh bachchan (Amar Akbar Anthony )
Click to expand...

Let me guess, Anthony Gonsalves worked for the Vatican Bank?

I have to plead ignorance, I have no clue who or what Amar Akbar Anthony is or what scene you're referring to.
 
MRSN said:
incredible. Why people act like angels if they have faults?
Click to expand...

To prepare for eventualities exactly like this one. Do you think everyone and their brother would be going so far out of their way to defend their theft if these guys weren't merchants of religion and associated with Tableeghi Jamaat? In Pakistan public opinion plays a huge role in determining what you can and can not get away with, and the easiest way for a public figure to improve their public opinion is to go for the low hanging fruit which is religion and feign piety.

Eagle_Eye said:
On an average yearly salary of $1500, how much of the population does come under the tax net?

Anyone know the tax bands for Pakistan?
Click to expand...

Taxable income starts at Rs. 400'000 per annum($3816). The study that identified the two illustrious gentlemen named in OP identified 3.5 million high net worth individuals(by Pakistani standards) who were outside the tax net so that's already about five times as many people as those who pay taxes. The $3816 threshold means that virtually anyone who's lower middle class or above owes tax and depending on which estimate for the size of the middle class is used, that's all working folk from a sample size of between 60 and 100 million. Tax brackets are as follows:

Income-Tax-Slabs-in-Pakistan-2016-17-Income-Tax-Rates-for-Salaried-Persons.jpg
 
Nostalgic said:
Let me guess, Anthony Gonsalves worked for the Vatican Bank?

I have to plead ignorance, I have no clue who or what Amar Akbar Anthony is or what scene you're referring to.
Click to expand...

It is one of the greatest movies from the land of crappy movies.
 
The hypocrisy exists in India too. The ones who do everything under the sun to evade taxes are usually the ones who complain most vocally about political/bureaucratic corruption. As if politicians are somehow separate from the society which they represent. If your society is corrupt, how can you expect your elected representatives to be any different?
 
Nikhil_cric said:
The hypocrisy exists in India too. The ones who do everything under the sun to evade taxes are usually the ones who complain most vocally about political/bureaucratic corruption. As if politicians are somehow separate from the society which they represent. If your society is corrupt, how can you expect your elected representatives to be any different?
Click to expand...

A couple years ago, there were huge protests in Peshawar against rolling blackouts. The interesting thing is that in Peshawar, the local utility had implemented a program where the duration of blackouts in a given locality was proportional to the amount of power being stolen there(extremely easy to track) so the areas where no one, or a handful of households at most, were involved in theft were getting uninterrupted power and depending on the amount of theft, a given locality could experience as much as 20 hours of power cuts in a day(there were many brackets in between) so the worst affected were the thieves themselves while those who were paying their dues were mostly enjoying uninterrupted power or very few power cuts.
 
Nostalgic said:
No wonder I hadn't heard of it.
Click to expand...

Three brothers get lost when their father decides to sacrifice himself for a gangster hoping the gangster would take care of his family,ofcourse he doesn't.

The mother gets blind and lost too,now all the boys end up random religious homes, elder amar hindu, anthony with a Christian father and akbar with a Muslim.

Dont tell me that doesn't get you into the plot??As unbelievable as ever :p
 
JaDed said:
Three brothers get lost when their father decides to sacrifice himself for a gangster hoping the gangster would take care of his family,ofcourse he doesn't.

The mother gets blind and lost too,now all the boys end up random religious homes, elder amar hindu, anthony with a Christian father and akbar with a Muslim.

Dont tell me that doesn't get you into the plot??As unbelievable as ever :p
Click to expand...

Yes, I just Googled it. Apparently the character Akbar's full name is Akbar Allahabadi. I'm curious if they were just going for alliteration, or was the character really inspired by the famous poet by that name. We had quite a bit of his poetry added to our textbooks post-Zia, because he was a conservative voice satirically commenting on Western trends encroaching into Muslim life in the early 1900's.
 
Nostalgic said:
Yes, I just Googled it. Apparently the character Akbar's full name is Akbar Allahabadi. I'm curious if they were just going for alliteration, or was the character really inspired by the famous poet by that name. We had quite a bit of his poetry added to our textbooks post-Zia, because he was a conservative voice satirically commenting on Western trends encroaching into Muslim life in the early 1900's.
Click to expand...

Im guessing u have a tendency to remember and associate names ,i recall you saying somethin similar on najma heptulla as well.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Similar threads

The Bald Eagle
Former Pakistan cricket team captain Saeed Anwar's controversial views over women entering the workforce resulting in more divorces has gone viral
2
Replies
115
Views
3K
Justcrazy
Justcrazy
MenInG
POTW: Mamoon
Replies
39
Views
4K
pakistani pride
P
MenInG
Female students forced to sit behind fence for Saeed Anwar's speech at Peshawar University
2
Replies
84
Views
3K
barah_admi
B
MenInG
National U13 and National U16 tournaments (2022)
Replies
24
Views
3K
MenInG
MenInG
A
"The decision to not leave the PIA cricket team was the worst mistake I made" : Jamshed Ahmed
Replies
50
Views
7K
Saj
S
Back
Top