Karachi NA246 By-election & the Quota System

[Slog]

Also, is there any proof that they would be worse at their jobs just because they don't have the same qualifications as other candidates? Someone who manages to get a good position in standardized tests while coming from a poor rural school without the same facilities as the guy from the elite Karachi school shows more intellect, motivation and passion despite scoring lower.

do you know anything about the issue being discussed or are you just arguing for arguments sake?

if the quota system had any real life utility and positive effect then i would be all for it.

 

[Slog]

Only 10% of the jobs in the civil service are avalable on merit

no wonder we are in the condition we are in

Most of these waderas and jageerdars hail from rural areas (their addresses are there despite living in cities) and hence the quota system directly ensures that theyget most of the pie under the guise of helping out rural areas. And the same people who brought the quota system ensure that the poor rural folk are never in a position to get primary education let alone compete for jobs or institutions where they might actually benefit

I know quite a few people who benefited from the quota system and they were rich waderas and apart from a few days each year they would be in Karachi all year long. But when applying they used their family address in rural Sindh.

Technically if Bilawal Bhutto was to apply for a government position or civil services job he would get it as part of the quota system which ensures what a farce it is.

 

[saadibaba]

Also to consider is that, even for the same intellect, same drive and same opportunities, a Sindhi student whose mother language is Sindhi will find it hard to compete with native speakers. Just because some guy from Karachi decided that Urdu should be the national language and Punjabi, Sindhi, Pashto, Baluchi, Saraiki, Hindko,... are lingua non grata.

Even before the formation of Pakistan, leaders of the Muslim League used Urdu as a symbol for Muslim separatism and unity. It was therefore natural to continue on that course despite the fact that at that time of independence, the majority of Pakistanis spoke Bengali. It was the west Pakistanis, mainly the Urdu bureaucratic arm and the Punjabi political and military arm who opted to force Urdu down the throats of all Pakistanis.

The center at Punjab used the one language law to their advantage to squash any dissent or call of regional or provincial rights. Urdu speakers naturally went along with the law as it was an affirmation of their supposed superiority over the less educated and cultured countrymen they encountered post migration. This lead to perhaps the first fissure between east and west Pakistan which ultimately led to the formation of Bangladesh.

Sindhis ended up with the worst deal, being pushed over by the Punjabis in the center and by Urdu speakers at the local level. Any movement by them to retain their identity and culture was taken as separatist movements and dealt with an iron fist. Before Bhutto's ascendency to power, Sindhis were reduced to second class citizenship in their own province. In a reactionary move, the quota system was introduced which adversely effected the Urdu speaking population and subsequently the seeds of Mohajirism were sown as Urdu speakers began to lose their exclusive and privileged status in Pakistan's fledgling bureaucratic structure which they initially dominated.

While the intention behind the quota system may have been noble, the way it was implemented and how it ended up benefiting the mostly rich and influential Sindhis instead of the poor rural masses grew the two ethnicities even further apart. In the end, no one really benefited and instead it became the rallying cry for ethnicity based politics in Sindh, the effects of which are still resonating through our divided milieu.

In short, Urdu would have never achieved the status it enjoyed post partition if it were not for the Punjabi establishment's love for the language, both as an ulterior motives and in general. They associated Urdu language as a sign of progress, of intellectualism and modernity. While Sindhis and Pashtuns held on to their regional language, Punjabis excluded Punjabi from their houses and work places like a plague. We all benefited from it though as what would Urdu be without Faiz, Manto, Ishtiaq Ahmed and many others.

 

[Slog]

While the intention behind the quota system may have been noble, the way it was implemented and how it ended up benefiting the mostly rich and influential Sindhis instead of the poor rural masses grew the two ethnicities even further apart. In the end, no one really benefited and instead it became the rallying cry for ethnicity based politics in Sindh, the effects of which are still resonating through our divided milieu.

this noble aim was all masala

i honestly think that the reason from the very start was vote bank politics and ensuring the waderas ensuring their influence for future generations

 

[Slog]

In short, Urdu would have never achieved the status it enjoyed post partition if it were not for the Punjabi establishment's love for the language, both as an ulterior motives and in general. They associated Urdu language as a sign of progress, of intellectualism and modernity. While Sindhis and Pashtuns held on to their regional language, Punjabis excluded Punjabi from their houses and work places like a plague. We all benefited from it though as what would Urdu be without Faiz, Manto, Ishtiaq Ahmed and many others.

true. Only in Punjabi households is urdu encouraged and spoken exclusively sometimes..

not that there is anything wrong with it

in either case urdu and punjabi are fairly similar

Bengali is alien compared to Punjabi, sindhi and urdu

 

[endymion248]

do you know anything about the issue being discussed or are you just arguing for arguments sake?

if the quota system had any real life utility and positive effect then i would be all for it.

Only 10% of the jobs in the civil service are avalable on merit

no wonder we are in the condition we are in

Most of these waderas and jageerdars hail from rural areas (their addresses are there despite living in cities) and hence the quota system directly ensures that theyget most of the pie under the guise of helping out rural areas. And the same people who brought the quota system ensure that the poor rural folk are never in a position to get primary education let alone compete for jobs or institutions where they might actually benefit

I know quite a few people who benefited from the quota system and they were rich waderas and apart from a few days each year they would be in Karachi all year long. But when applying they used their family address in rural Sindh.

Technically if Bilawal Bhutto was to apply for a government position or civil services job he would get it as part of the quota system which ensures what a farce it is.

That makes the implementation of the quota system wrong, not its principle. However, you are arguing against the notion of it and failed to address any of my concerns as to why it is needed. If it looks like I'm arguing for the sake of arguing, it is because you keep flip-flopping between "It's unfair even if poor Sindhis are given quotas" and, when proven wrong, "it benefits waderas".

 

[endymion248]

Even before the formation of Pakistan, leaders of the Muslim League used Urdu as a symbol for Muslim separatism and unity. It was therefore natural to continue on that course despite the fact that at that time of independence, the majority of Pakistanis spoke Bengali. It was the west Pakistanis, mainly the Urdu bureaucratic arm and the Punjabi political and military arm who opted to force Urdu down the throats of all Pakistanis.

The center at Punjab used the one language law to their advantage to squash any dissent or call of regional or provincial rights. Urdu speakers naturally went along with the law as it was an affirmation of their supposed superiority over the less educated and cultured countrymen they encountered post migration. This lead to perhaps the first fissure between east and west Pakistan which ultimately led to the formation of Bangladesh.

Sindhis ended up with the worst deal, being pushed over by the Punjabis in the center and by Urdu speakers at the local level. Any movement by them to retain their identity and culture was taken as separatist movements and dealt with an iron fist. Before Bhutto's ascendency to power, Sindhis were reduced to second class citizenship in their own province. In a reactionary move, the quota system was introduced which adversely effected the Urdu speaking population and subsequently the seeds of Mohajirism were sown as Urdu speakers began to lose their exclusive and privileged status in Pakistan's fledgling bureaucratic structure which they initially dominated.

While the intention behind the quota system may have been noble, the way it was implemented and how it ended up benefiting the mostly rich and influential Sindhis instead of the poor rural masses grew the two ethnicities even further apart. In the end, no one really benefited and instead it became the rallying cry for ethnicity based politics in Sindh, the effects of which are still resonating through our divided milieu.

In short, Urdu would have never achieved the status it enjoyed post partition if it were not for the Punjabi establishment's love for the language, both as an ulterior motives and in general. They associated Urdu language as a sign of progress, of intellectualism and modernity. While Sindhis and Pashtuns held on to their regional language, Punjabis excluded Punjabi from their houses and work places like a plague. We all benefited from it though as what would Urdu be without Faiz, Manto, Ishtiaq Ahmed and many others.

Informative post. It's true that, while Urdu-speakers pride in their language is understandable, Punjabis weird fetish for Urdu is really strange. Maybe it's due to the similarity between these languages.

Who's to say that Faiz, Manto or Ishtiaq's writings wouldn't have been just as good (if not better) in Punjabis?

 

[saadibaba]

what would Urdu be without Faiz, Manto, Ishtiaq Ahmed and many others.

Lolz....meant to write Ashfaq Ahmed the famous playwright known for his deeply philosophical dramas and not Ishtiaq Ahmed, a kids fiction writer of pulp spy novel series like Inspector Jamshed, Shoki etc. which unfortunately I read a lot growing up.

 

[Slog]

That makes the implementation of the quota system wrong, not its principle. However, you are arguing against the notion of it and failed to address any of my concerns as to why it is needed. If it looks like I'm arguing for the sake of arguing, it is because you keep flip-flopping between "It's unfair even if poor Sindhis are given quotas" and, when proven wrong, "it benefits waderas".

There is no flip flopping. Not my fault if you cant understand

If there needs to be a quota system it needs to be all over Pakistan. Either have it in every province to make it seem like the reason is any other than political or not have it.

Secondly and more importantly, the intention behind it was never to help poor rural Sindhis and the people who made it made sure that did not happen even by mistake. Which makes the whole thing a farce.

Thirdly. You need to understand the difference between the quota system and the affirmative action you keep on mentioning.

Lets make a hypothethical scenerio:

In the US. African American is 80-90% qualified for a role. And a white American is 80-90% qualified for a role. Affirmative action will make sure that African American gets the role

In Sindh's quota system: An Urdu speaking guy from Karachi is 80-90% qualified for a role. A guy who is from interior Sindh or has some family in interior Sindh is 50% qualified but he gets picked over the more qualified guy.

So theres a difference between affirmative action and what happens in the quota system

Finally. And most crucially and sth I would like your opinion on. In the case of the urdu speaking guy from Karachi being shafted because of the quota system. That urdu speaking guy is not from a rch background either. He is usually from a middle class or humbler background which is why he is competing and involving himself for government roles and/or institutions. So even in the ideal case scenario where a poor rural Sindh resident was competing for a given role, he was not competing with some well off guy in the first place. He was competing with a guy from a poor background too. Most well off families who are not politically affliated dont involve themselves in such matters and go to private schools and private jobs. So they are not relevant to the discussion.

In effect due to the quota system, The children of waderas who dont bother to work hard are getting a leg up over Karachi-based kids from poor families who worked very hard and hada lot of committment. So the only basis they are not being rewarded is because they speak Urdu and their hard work goes to waste. This sows seeds of resentment.

The quota system did not affect me or most people you will see on PP. But it doesnt mean its not wrong. We were just lucky to go to private schools and pursue private jobs

 

[endymion248]

Lolz....meant to write Ashfaq Ahmed the famous playwright known for his deeply philosophical dramas and not Ishtiaq Ahmed, a kids fiction writer of pulp spy novel series like Inspector Jamshed, Shoki etc. which unfortunately I read a lot growing up.

I thought you were talking about some obscure genius I didn't know of. A bit disappointed truth be told.

 

[Slog]

Lolz....meant to write Ashfaq Ahmed the famous playwright known for his deeply philosophical dramas and not Ishtiaq Ahmed, a kids fiction writer of pulp spy novel series like Inspector Jamshed, Shoki etc. which unfortunately I read a lot growing up.

By all accounts he is a legend in his own right..

 

[Slog]

If the quota system had any positive utility then believe me I would have supported it

 

[Slog]

Finally. And most crucially and sth I would like your opinion on. In the case of the urdu speaking guy from Karachi being shafted because of the quota system. That urdu speaking guy is not from a rch background either. He is usually from a middle class or humbler background which is why he is competing and involving himself for government roles and/or institutions. So even in the ideal case scenario where a poor rural Sindh resident was competing for a given role, he was not competing with some well off guy in the first place. He was competing with a guy from a poor background too. Most well off families who are not politically affliated dont involve themselves in such matters and go to private schools and private jobs. So they are not relevant to the discussion.

In effect due to the quota system, The children of waderas who dont bother to work hard are getting a leg up over Karachi-based kids from poor families who worked very hard and hada lot of committment. So the only basis they are not being rewarded is because they speak Urdu and their hard work goes to waste. This sows seeds of resentment.

also this is one of the reasons why MQM still gets votes in Karachi and PTI was able to penetrate only the posh areas of Clifton and Defence and some well off pockets in N. Nazimabad, Gulshan-e-Iqbal etc.

 

[endymion248]

There is no flip flopping. Not my fault if you cant understand

If you disagree with quota system in any form, why do you keep mentioning that it only helps waderas? As far as you are concerned, wadera or poor sindhi, it's all the same. If you would be okay with it only helping poor Sindhis, why do you keep putting in doubt that they need helping?

If there needs to be a quota system it needs to be all over Pakistan. Either have it in every province to make it seem like the reason is any other than political or not have it.

What other groups in Pakistan need it? If there are, no doubt it needs to exist in other provinces too.

Secondly and more importantly, the intention behind it was never to help poor rural Sindhis and the people who made it made sure that did not happen even by mistake. Which makes the whole thing a farce.

That is the nature of most political decisions. They are presented as a help for the citizen but only for the votes, in practice they help the decision-makers. That doesn't mean that the principle that there need to be quotas for rural sindhis is wrong.

Thirdly. You need to understand the difference between the quota system and the affirmative action you keep on mentioning.

Lets make a hypothethical scenerio:

In the US. African American is 80-90% qualified for a role. And a white American is 80-90% qualified for a role. Affirmative action will make sure that African American gets the role

In Sindh's quota system: An Urdu speaking guy from Karachi is 80-90% qualified for a role. A guy who is from interior Sindh or has some family in interior Sindh is 50% qualified but he gets picked over the more qualified guy.

So theres a difference between affirmative action and what happens in the quota system

Affirmative action is a less rigid form of quota. it is less useful when the concerned population is too numerous or too far under the average. In the first case, it would make it so that there are too many people coming through affirmative action, in the second too little.
Your analogy is wrong as far as affirmative action in american colleges is concerned. There is a direct correlation between under-privileged race and lower SAT scores at any given school. Comparing African-Americans to Asians can make a difference of 500 points.(http://www.princeton.edu/~tje/files/Admission Preferences Espenshade Chung Walling Dec 2004.pdf)

Finally. And most crucially and sth I would like your opinion on. In the case of the urdu speaking guy from Karachi being shafted because of the quota system. That urdu speaking guy is not from a rch background either. He is usually from a middle class or humbler background which is why he is competing and involving himself for government roles and/or institutions. So even in the ideal case scenario where a poor rural Sindh resident was competing for a given role, he was not competing with some well off guy in the first place. He was competing with a guy from a poor background too. Most well off families who are not politically affliated dont involve themselves in such matters and go to private schools and private jobs. So they are not relevant to the discussion.

I completely understand why they would feel resentment but they still benefit from speaking Urdu (arbitrarily considered national language), living in the city close to the schools and various other factors that make them more qualified. Urdu-speaking people are not inherently smarter and more hard-working than Sindhis, if there is a difference then there are causes behind it (what some would call privileges).
There may be individuals who are actually less privileged than even rural Sindhis but affirmative action/quota is about improvement on the level of whole populations, not individuals, and at a macro-demographic level, Urdu-speaking people (for the same income) are more privileged than Sindhis. There should still be affirmative action based on income (for example more scholarships) but society benefits a lot more from helping a poor Sindhi who is then going to use his education, wealth or power to improve the future of whole areas (instead of just their own self and their children)

In effect due to the quota system, The children of waderas who dont bother to work hard are getting a leg up over Karachi-based kids from poor families who worked very hard and hada lot of committment. So the only basis they are not being rewarded is because they speak Urdu and their hard work goes to waste. This sows seeds of resentment.

Agreed.

 

[Waseem]

Pmln won most seats from central punjab while pti won from whole country.
Pmln is in government thats why they have won so much in punjab.
Pmln the biggest party of pakistan has won 2 wards in kpk. That too from hazara and fazlu your ally has won 0 seats.




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As per the biggest PTI critics Saleem Safi and Najam Sethi, PTI has now become the only NATIONAL party as they have contested from all provinces and won seats from 3 provinces as opposed to PMLN (limited to Punjab), PPP (Regional Sindh) and MQM has always been Khi-Hyd party and will remain one forever the way it's going.
PTI must now organize itself and resolve its internal issues before next elections.

 

[saadibaba]

I thought you were talking about some obscure genius I didn't know of. A bit disappointed truth be told.

Well, if you can call churning out 4 spy novels per month as genius than by all means.

By all accounts he is a legend in his own right..

True. Although, you may know about his fervent Anti-Qadiyani stance which somehow managed to make its way into kid novels which was very inappropriate. But I guess for him, it was service in the name of Islam.

Have you read his younger brother's novels, I'm forgetting his name. His stories were full of action as compared to his older brothers reliance on the old school mystery genre and were usually based on some weird international conspiracy theories. I still remember his pseudonym for Pakistan, it was Pakishiya like Indonesia or Malaysia. How original....

 

[endymion248]

[MENTION=138463]Slog[/MENTION] : This is why I say that you can never be off-topic while debating with a mod

 

[Slog]

If you disagree with quota system in any form, why do you keep mentioning that it only helps waderas? As far as you are concerned, wadera or poor sindhi, it's all the same. If you would be okay with it only helping poor Sindhis, why do you keep putting in doubt that they need helping?.

The Sindhis as a group are not oppressed by any means and even if they are they are oppressed by fellow Sindhis. Problem is the complexity of the issue which is hard to explain. To solve the problems in interior sindh you need land reforms and destroying the hold of waderas. Now while the quota system or anything of that sort sounds good but the situation in Sindh (and Punjab) is too complex for it to be ever a solution. It may have worked elsewhere but not in Pakistan.

In interior Sindh, the inequality is greater than probably any region in the country. The Haris are literally slaves of the waderas for all intents and purposes. If any government was actually sincere they wouldnt bother with introducing the quota system at a point where any oppressed poor Sindhi would not go to primary school and learn to read and write let alone benefit from a law which is farcical. If you want to improve the conditions of the poor masses in Sindh and Punjab then you need land reforms like India had after partition not some masala quota law for populist appeal and votes.

I would be happy if it actually helped the particular group. But I cant put my head in the sand and praise some cosmetic law which only serves to strengthen the hold of the same groups of people who have oppressed the poor people of this country and leeched it since its inception. It may sound good to outsiders but the reality is that the intention of it was never to help the poor Sindhis. Problem in your case is that you do not know ground realities. A poor Sindhi would rarely be applying for jobs/opportunities in Karachi in the first place so the idea of them benefitting as a group makes no sense. It only serves the offspring of waderas who have grown up in Karachi all their life but use their family addresses and hence get free passes in high position.

40 years have passed and there has been no positive development as far as the position of poor rural Sindhis is concerned. Infact its gotten better. At some point you have to take stock of reality. The law was designed to help the landowners and it has done an absolutely unbelievable job of that. They use the bait of jobs to win elections and get ministries and whatnot.

The quota system has succeeded in every respect for what it was meant to do and has alienated a large group of people too and given rise to menace of ethnic parties. And the shame here is that the rise of such a party is fully justified.

Btw even IK said recently that the quota system is a gross injustice.

I know where you are coming from and why it may sound good but the reality is different.

In any case the aim should be to improve and increase opportunties in interior Sindh and elsewhere.

What other groups in Pakistan need it? If there are, no doubt it needs to exist in other provinces too.

Seraikis, Hazaras etc etc. by same token,

That is the nature of most political decisions. They are presented as a help for the citizen but only for the votes, in practice they help the decision-makers. That doesn't mean that the principle that there need to be quotas for rural sindhis is wrong.

It is. The quota for rural Sindhis is 60%.

By all estimates Karachi has more population than whole of interior Sindh but expressly for this reason a cencus has not been conducted since 1998 so that the numbers dont reflect that.

There may be individuals who are actually less privileged than even rural Sindhis but affirmative action/quota is about improvement on the level of whole populations, not individuals, and at a macro-demographic level, Urdu-speaking people (for the same income) are more privileged than Sindhis. There should still be affirmative action based on income (for example more scholarships) but society benefits a lot more from helping a poor Sindhi who is then going to use his education, wealth or power to improve the future of whole areas (instead of just their own self and their children)

An actual oppressed poor Sindhi who would benefit from the quota system (no such thing exists) would definitely not be residing in interior sindh anyways as the opportunities are there.

The simple fact is that its in the interest of the landowners to keep on oppressing the poor and keeping them illiterate so the likelihood of that happening is low.

 

[Slog]

[MENTION=138463]Slog[/MENTION] : This is why I say that you can never be off-topic while debating with a mod

I was thinkng of creating a new topic but didnt know what the interest levels would be so just changed this

 

[Slog]

That makes the implementation of the quota system wrong, not its principle. However, you are arguing against the notion of it and failed to address any of my concerns as to why it is needed. If it looks like I'm arguing for the sake of arguing, it is because you keep flip-flopping between "It's unfair even if poor Sindhis are given quotas" and, when proven wrong, "it benefits waderas".

Some sort of variation of it is needed but the current version needs to be scrapped

And good government schools are also needed in interior Sindh

Right now half the government schools are ghost schools and rest have low attendance, no furniture and absent teachers in most of interior Sindh. So poor kids (who some how are allowed to go to school) will never be in a position to stand to benefir from the quota system.

Have to admit one thing. The waderas are geniuses in this respect

 

[endymion248]

The Sindhis as a group are not oppressed by any means and even if they are they are oppressed by fellow Sindhis. Problem is the complexity of the issue which is hard to explain. To solve the problems in interior sindh you need land reforms and destroying the hold of waderas. Now while the quota system or anything of that sort sounds good but the situation in Sindh (and Punjab) is too complex for it to be ever a solution. It may have worked elsewhere but not in Pakistan.

In interior Sindh, the inequality is greater than probably any region in the country. The Haris are literally slaves of the waderas for all intents and purposes. If any government was actually sincere they wouldnt bother with introducing the quota system at a point where any oppressed poor Sindhi would not go to primary school and learn to read and write let alone benefit from a law which is farcical. If you want to improve the conditions of the poor masses in Sindh and Punjab then you need land reforms like India had after partition not some masala quota law for populist appeal and votes.

I would be happy if it actually helped the particular group. But I cant put my head in the sand and praise some cosmetic law which only serves to strengthen the hold of the same groups of people who have oppressed the poor people of this country and leeched it since its inception. It may sound good to outsiders but the reality is that the intention of it was never to help the poor Sindhis. Problem in your case is that you do not know ground realities. A poor Sindhi would rarely be applying for jobs/opportunities in Karachi in the first place so the idea of them benefitting as a group makes no sense. It only serves the offspring of waderas who have grown up in Karachi all their life but use their family addresses and hence get free passes in high position.

40 years have passed and there has been no positive development as far as the position of poor rural Sindhis is concerned. Infact its gotten better. At some point you have to take stock of reality. The law was designed to help the landowners and it has done an absolutely unbelievable job of that. They use the bait of jobs to win elections and get ministries and whatnot.

The quota system has succeeded in every respect for what it was meant to do and has alienated a large group of people too and given rise to menace of ethnic parties. And the shame here is that the rise of such a party is fully justified.

Btw even IK said recently that the quota system is a gross injustice.

This is pretty interesting. So, rural Sindhis are so uneducated/poor that nobody among them can benefit from quotas on schools and jobs except the waderas? I would have thought that at least a small minority from them would benefit. What happens if you slap an income/property ownership limit on it?

BTW, I think that a land reform would have disastrous consequences in Punjab. Except for southern Punjab, land is extremely morcelated which, taking into account water shortage and electricity prices, makes it hard to generate any profits for people who would come under having too much land. There are a lot of people in rural areas of Pakistan without land but those people do other work (ie are kamis) and generally survive through the heavy trickle down system that exists in feudalism (esp with democracy based on baraderi system). If there was a land reform there, you would probably just have a bunch of unsustenable 2-3 acres farms that would get sold within the year and, because of supply and demand, they would sell cheap, so in the end land would be concentrated in the hands of the few who have the money to invest. Result, mass rural exodus. It could work in the areas with people who own mini-states though.

In any case the aim should be to improve and increase opportunties in interior Sindh and elsewhere.

Quotas are only a short-term fix (that has been in place for 40 years) and minor in its influence, improving the opportunities for the locals in their own area is definitely more important.

But Karachi will always be Karachi and they will always have the disadvantage of the language. Maybe a solution could be, like the land reform idea, to take a page from India's book and change the status of various languages in Pakistan. Ideally, from the start, English would have been the vernacular between different provinces and, inside, the local languages would have held the same value (ie Urdu no more important than the others).

Seraikis, Hazaras etc etc. by same token,

I think more provinces could solve that particular problem.

It is. The quota for rural Sindhis is 60%.

Definitely disproportionate. But I still am think that something like 10% for the right people in education (not necessarily in workforce) is necessary.

Another thing I hadn't considered is that a poor person in rural person is not bound by land. A lot of those people probably emigrate to Karachi so, ironically, they end up not qualifying for the same quotas. But it could counteract the inexorable rural exodus to come by giving more benefits to rural people.

 

[endymion248]

Some sort of variation of it is needed but the current version needs to be scrapped

And good government schools are also needed in interior Sindh

Right now half the government schools are ghost schools and rest have low attendance, no furniture and absent teachers in most of interior Sindh. So poor kids (who some how are allowed to go to school) will never be in a position to stand to benefir from the quota system.

Have to admit one thing. The waderas are geniuses in this respect

They don't have to be genius, it's natural for people in position of power to sell narratives of us vs them and pretend that actions that don't benefit a given elite are actually discrimination aagainst the people. And, since we tend to close down on smaller and smaller social structures in times of crisis, as well as love to blame the other for our problem, anyone can buy into this narrative, be it poor peasants or educated urbanites.

 

[Slog]

This is pretty interesting. So, rural Sindhis are so uneducated/poor that nobody among them can benefit from quotas on schools and jobs except the waderas? I would have thought that at least a small minority from them would benefit. What happens if you slap an income/property ownership limit on it?

Prett much. Slavery is existent in rural sindh for all intents and purposes.

Also slapping an income/property ownershp is a great idea. But you know its Pakistan. Impossible to keep track and implement. And the status quo will find a way to work it to their advantage. Though it wont happen in a democratic set up in the first place. Because any democratic setup derives its support from these same people.

Which is why Im so angry at the military dictators. They didnt depend on the landowners for their power but they still didnt tackle it. Or Bhutto after 1970. By 1977 he had come into bed with same landowners

BTW, I think that a land reform would have disastrous consequences in Punjab. Except for southern Punjab, land is extremely morcelated which, taking into account water shortage and electricity prices, makes it hard to generate any profits for people who would come under having too much land. There are a lot of people in rural areas of Pakistan without land but those people do other work (ie are kamis) and generally survive through the heavy trickle down system that exists in feudalism (esp with democracy based on baraderi system). If there was a land reform there, you would probably just have a bunch of unsustenable 2-3 acres farms that would get sold within the year and, because of supply and demand, they would sell cheap, so in the end land would be concentrated in the hands of the few who have the money to invest. Result, mass rural exodus. It could work in the areas with people who own mini-states though.

Dont know. I unfortunately dont know a whole lot abt this topic. But its quoted as an issue all the time.

And historians often talk about how India doing land reforms right after independence helped it out so much in the long term.

Quotas are only a short-term fix (that has been in place for 40 years) and minor in its influence, improving the opportunities for the locals in their own area is definitely more important.

But Karachi will always be Karachi and they will always have the disadvantage of the language. Maybe a solution could be, like the land reform idea, to take a page from India's book and change the status of various languages in Pakistan. Ideally, from the start, English would have been the vernacular between different provinces and, inside, the local languages would have held the same value (ie Urdu no more important than the others).

I think you are overstating the role and advantages of Urdu here. Most business is conducted in English anyway. And any Pakistani who has attended school till 10th grade would have perfect Urdu anyway.

Another thing I hadn't considered is that a poor person in rural person is not bound by land. A lot of those people probably emigrate to Karachi so, ironically, they end up not qualifying for the same quotas. But it could counteract the inexorable rural exodus to come by giving more benefits to rural people

I know some rich industry owning Urdu speaking families own land in interior Sindh (turn it into a farmhouse or sth) for this purpose

 

[Slog]

Point is that both poor Urdu speaking and Sindhi people are screwed

 

[Strike Rate]

The MQM candidate who won this seat last year:

“I have nothing to do with Altaf Hussain or the London office, I have and will continue to support Pakistan and the Karachi-based party only,” MQM Rabita Committee member Jamil said on Wednesday. Jamil was the winning candidate from Karachi’s NA-246 in April 2015’s by-elections.

http://tribune.com.pk/story/1173461/mqm-mna-kanwar-naveed-breaks-off-ties-altaf-hussain/

 

[Couch Cricketer]

The MQM candidate who won this seat last year:



http://tribune.com.pk/story/1173461/mqm-mna-kanwar-naveed-breaks-off-ties-altaf-hussain/

I have been saying for years that until MQM breaks off from Altaf it wont be able to change or grow. He and the others in london like all expats are stuck in the time they left the place. Don't understand or see how it has changed and how MQM needs to change with it. Mustafa Kamal left Karachi because he was getting very popular in Karachi and if anyone gets too popular in MQM he become a threat to Altaf.
I agree with MQM stands on many issues like many others in Karachi but sadly because of Altaf saying you agree with MQM made people look at you funny as if you are the criminal.

 

[Strike Rate]

I have been saying for years that until MQM breaks off from Altaf it wont be able to change or grow. He and the others in london like all expats are stuck in the time they left the place. Don't understand or see how it has changed and how MQM needs to change with it. Mustafa Kamal left Karachi because he was getting very popular in Karachi and if anyone gets too popular in MQM he become a threat to Altaf.
I agree with MQM stands on many issues like many others in Karachi but sadly because of Altaf saying you agree with MQM made people look at you funny as if you are the criminal.

Agree with most of what you said and we outsiders are also aware of those issues Karachites are facing from decades that Altaf used to catch Muhajir vote but the only thing that was hard to digest is Altaf version of MQM but now if they really change and get away from Altaf finally than we are up for big and positive change in Karachi with a new MQM and PSP.

 

[Pakpak]

The MQM candidate who won this seat last year:



http://tribune.com.pk/story/1173461/mqm-mna-kanwar-naveed-breaks-off-ties-altaf-hussain/

Its just words, we all know if he meant it he'd be dead in a day.

 

[Slog]

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/_8XWQlg9X10" frameborder="0" allow="accelerometer; autoplay; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Always rearing its ugly head.

If PTI doesnt do anything about this then MQM will be back