What's new

Karachi's population is 14.9 million and Lahore's is 11.126 million, how is it even possible?

So as per [MENTION=44089]Eagle_Eye[/MENTION]... the blue circle is 70% of Karachi. Perhaps he didn't chose his PP name very wisely.

View attachment 76004

Blue circle isn't Malir Division... Malir division includes districts of Malir Town, Bin Qasim town and Gadap Towwn.... What you surrounded is Malir Cantonment, which isn't inside Malir Divsion...
 
[MENTION=138463]Slog[/MENTION] when estimates say that Karachi has 25 million population, they include the whole of the map I posted above.... It's obvious people from Karachi don't know that as Syed thinks that Karachi ends at Malir cantonment, which isn in the middle of Karachi Urban area... This is why there is so much confusion around this, people talk without having any idea of

a) what a metro area is
b) what karachi's metro area is
c) how much population the metro area has
 
There are two things... Malir and Malir Metropolitan Corporation

800px-Karachi_admin.PNG


Only Karachi Metropolitan Corporation is counted as Karachi in the Census....

So he is right that Malir (which isn't counted as Karachi) is bigger than Karachi

Most of the area in Karachi division is not populated... the census is fine
 
We should ask how many people filled census forms in Karachi...and how many mentioned Karachi their primary city.
 
Most of the area in Karachi division is not populated... the census is fine

Yes but that is where confusion comes from...

People from Karachi hear ''estimates say that Karachi urban area has a population of 25 millions'' so they think it means Karachi city has a population of 25 millions... When that would make Karachi the most populated city in the world...

Every city every where has a disparity between city limits and urban area...

And then census comes in, Karachi has a population of 15 millions... Which makes TOTAL sense... Because that makes Karachi the 6th most populated city in the world... And Karachi urban area is also the 7th most populated urban area in the world... So obviously that's consistent...

But these people who don't have a clue about demographics, they're like ''Karachi has a population of 30 millions, I heard it in the news so it's obvious kanspiracy''...

People have a hard time grasping such a simple difference...
 
Last edited by a moderator:
There are two things... Malir and Malir Metropolitan Corporation

800px-Karachi_admin.PNG


Only Karachi Metropolitan Corporation is counted as Karachi in the Census....

So he is right that Malir (which isn't counted as Karachi) is bigger than Karachi

Even if you remove "Malir division" the other areas are no where near 14 million. If you had ever stepped out of your beloved Punjab and visited Karachi you would have known it is ten times more dense than any city in Pakistan.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
The funny thing is that Tokyo, which is MUCH MORE populated than Karachi, has population within city limits of 13 million.... So less than Karachi... KANSPIRACY against Tokyo :))

And New York City, again more populated than Karachi, has a population within city limits of 8 millions... KANSPIRACY against New York :))
 
Even if you remove "Malir division" the other areas are no where near 14 million. If you had ever stepped out of your beloved Punjab and visited Karachi you would have known it is ten times more dense than any city in Pakistan.

It's Malir+Korangi+Cantonments...

Ten times more dense? So Karachi has 50 000 people/km2?
 
Last edited by a moderator:
On July 31 the Pakiatan Bureau of Statisrics shared summarised results of the census with CCI and have a presentation. In that presentation the population of Karachi had been told to be 23.135 million.

Then the provisional results were released on Friday and the population of Karachi was revealed as 14.9 million

However there has been obvious questions raised

And today the Chief Census Commissioner had said that the population of Karachi is lower than expected because two districts of Karachi are not being shown as part of Karachi city. And if you add those the population figure will increase by 30-40%

So that makes sense. That will take the number to over 20mn which makes sense (perhaps even 23.135mn figure which was shared earlier)

Anyways the Census commission has really been disorganised and have put doubts on credibility with their flip flops

People should stop the war in this thread for time being, until we see the official figures. At least wait for the official report.
Only Yesterday we saw how enormous could be the consequences of a half truth. ( Robert's rebellion was based upon a lie) :))
 
On July 31 the Pakiatan Bureau of Statisrics shared summarised results of the census with CCI and have a presentation. In that presentation the population of Karachi had been told to be 23.135 million.

Then the provisional results were released on Friday and the population of Karachi was revealed as 14.9 million

However there has been obvious questions raised

And today the Chief Census Commissioner had said that the population of Karachi is lower than expected because two districts of Karachi are not being shown as part of Karachi city. And if you add those the population figure will increase by 30-40%

So that makes sense. That will take the number to over 20mn which makes sense (perhaps even 23.135mn figure which was shared earlier)

Anyways the Census commission has really been disorganised and have put doubts on credibility with their flip flops

The only people who have been disorganized is MQM crying discrimination when they don't even know full results...

Everybody with half a brain knows the difference between Urban Area and city limits... It seems ''educated'' leaders of Karachi don't...
 
The only people who have been disorganized is MQM crying discrimination when they don't even know full results...

Everybody with half a brain knows the difference between Urban Area and city limits... It seems ''educated'' leaders of Karachi don't...

Anybody with a half brain would know that Karachi comprises of KMC administered areas, cantonments and other divisions. Like I said you never stepped out of your beloved Punjab so you don't know.
 
Also, in the 1998 census, Korangi and Milar were counted as rural/urban mix areas... So it further proves the point that Karachi has 15 millions in provisional results because only 15 millions are considered urban within the karachi urban area...
 
Census has summarized Sindh politics in 3 steps:

1) Waderas are to blame for what happened
2) Waderas blame Punjab
3) Urdu speakers blame Punjab

I used to feel bad for them... But now I realized, Waderas blame us because they know it will work because Urdu Speakers hate us.... This is the only reason why this works... Nobody can be brainwashed into being so blind to their own interests, hate has to be there deep down...
 
Hmmm... But Sindh has same population whether Korangi is in Karachi or in rural area??? So why should Punjab care???

It matters when overall population is understated which IS quite possible

Punjab runs on the tax revenue of Karachi which is part of Sindh. It needs to care...

There is a reason why EVERY other province has had movements to seperate from Pakistan and has blamed Punjab for it. Or do you think everyone was biased and running a conspiracy against Poor Punjab
 
It matters when overall population is understated which IS quite possible

Punjab runs on the tax revenue of Karachi which is part of Sindh. It needs to care...

There is a reason why EVERY other province has had movements to seperate from Pakistan and has blamed Punjab for it. Or do you think everyone was biased and running a conspiracy against Poor Punjab

How is it possible when census says that Sindh had a higher population growth to Punjab??? That would be a really bad conspiracy where Punjab has a lower growth rate and actually lost 4 NA seats after the census :))

That's a Sindhi narrative, Bengali and Baluch blame Pakistan as a whole... They don't make a difference of Punjabi Sindhi Pathan...
 
The only people who have been disorganized is MQM crying discrimination when they don't even know full results...

Everybody with half a brain knows the difference between Urban Area and city limits... It seems ''educated'' leaders of Karachi don't...


:))

Stop trying to make a case when there isn't

EVERY political party has rejected the results so your mqm obsession just shows that you aren't in touch wth the ground realities
 
How is it possible when census says that Sindh had a higher population growth to Punjab??? That would be a really bad conspiracy where Punjab has a lower growth rate and actually lost 4 NA seats after the census :))

That's a Sindhi narrative, Bengali and Baluch blame Pakistan as a whole... They don't make a difference of Punjabi Sindhi Pathan...


Didn't answer my question.

Why has EVERY province at one point or another have had a problem with Punjab and called for secession?
 
:))

Stop trying to make a case when there isn't

EVERY political party has rejected the results so your mqm obsession just shows that you aren't in touch wth the ground realities

You mean PPP?? Have you read their statement??

''Sindh population has been undercounted'' (when Sindh has a higher population growth)

''They haven't counted Afghan, Burmese, Bengali people living in Sindh'' (oh we should count refugees too? give citizenship to Burmese Afghan refugees?)

At least MQM I can understand their point (but they should blame Sindh gov rather than federal), PPP is spewing purest bs... Have led government three times still always victim.... They didn't conduct census in their 5 years and now they're crying when someone else did...
 
Didn't answer my question.

Why has EVERY province at one point or another have had a problem with Punjab and called for secession?

And you didn't answer my question about how census can be a punjabi conspiracy when Sindh had higher growth rate...
 
You mean PPP?? Have you read their statement??

''Sindh population has been undercounted'' (when Sindh has a higher population growth)

''They haven't counted Afghan, Burmese, Bengali people living in Sindh'' (oh we should count refugees too? give citizenship to Burmese Afghan refugees?)

At least MQM I can understand their point (but they should blame Sindh gov rather than federal), PPP is spewing purest bs... Have led government three times still always victim.... They didn't conduct census in their 5 years and now they're crying when someone else did...



PTI, ANP, PML-F, PPP, PSP, MQM, have ALL called into question the provisional results

It's not just one party or ethnicity as you would like to believe
 
And you didn't answer my question about how census can be a punjabi conspiracy when Sindh had higher growth rate...

I clearly asked the question first

The increase is nominal. The discussion in the thread is primarily Karachi in relation to Lahore. And out of curiously where are you getting this 4 NA seats figure?
 
Didn't answer my question.

Why has EVERY province at one point or another have had a problem with Punjab and called for secession?

Again it's a red herring in a bid to obfuscate because victimhood is fully ingrained.

Getting back to the thread, Most of the area in Karachi division is not populated at all.... its there for all of us to see on google maps.
 
Its funny, how some one never been to karachi tells me korangi is not part of karachi :harby
 
Last edited:
People who never been to karachi are now experts on karachi population.:facepalm::facepalm::facepalm:
 
Seriously there was one guy who said it was ok to separate Korangi population from Karachi.. :))

Born and raised in korangi, spent 24 years of my life in korangi. I understand that sindh government has some fear in fair census due to big change in sindh political dynamics but what about the federal government and the pakpassion internet guru's based in (lahore + islamabad) who pretend they know everything about karachi, what happened to them? why they are against a fair census results? Dear folks, we are as much pakistani as you guys are but seriously your biased approach toward karachiites is unhelpful. I know some people who distance themselves in last couple of years from ethnic politics in the city are thinking going back towards it.
 
Born and raised in korangi, spent 24 years of my life in korangi. I understand that sindh government has some fear in fair census due to big change in sindh political dynamics but what about the federal government and the pakpassion internet guru's based in (lahore + islamabad) who pretend they know everything about karachi, what happened to them? why they are against a fair census results? Dear folks, we are as much pakistani as you guys are but seriously your biased approach toward karachiites is unhelpful. I know some people who distance themselves in last couple of years from ethnic politics in the city are thinking going back towards it.

What's ironic is that the census shows the rural population of Karachi growing by a substantial margin while the urban population only grew nominally. So people were moving from gaon dehaat and settling in gaon dehaat just outside Karachi :)))
 
Born and raised in korangi, spent 24 years of my life in korangi. I understand that sindh government has some fear in fair census due to big change in sindh political dynamics but what about the federal government and the pakpassion internet guru's based in (lahore + islamabad) who pretend they know everything about karachi, what happened to them? why they are against a fair census results? Dear folks, we are as much pakistani as you guys are but seriously your biased approach toward karachiites is unhelpful. I know some people who distance themselves in last couple of years from ethnic politics in the city are thinking going back towards it.

Why lump Islamabad with Lahore? I'm based in Islamabad and I'm firmly with Karachi on this one. Those numbers are so ridiculous they're borderline insulting. The government is basically telling us you're a bunch of idiots and we can pull a fast one on you in broad daylight. Lahore is a different story and Punjab loses out a LOT if Karachi's population is around 24-25 million so conspiracy theories about Karachiites and Pukhtuns playing victim are abound. There have been irregularities elsewhere as well that have gone unnoticed in all the fuss over Karachi's numbers (districts, backward ones at that which should have above average birth rates, actually losing population compared to 1998). It's quite clear that numbers have been doctored to keep Punjab's population north of the 50% benchmark.

Realistically, Punjab should have lost 15-18 NA seats, not the 4 that are being presented as evidence that no numbers were fudged? And once again, stop lumping us with Lahoris, I don't think anyone from Islamabad will appreciate that. It's bad enough that our city now looks like a miniaturized Lahore *cringes*.
 
Last edited:
Born and raised in korangi, spent 24 years of my life in korangi. I understand that sindh government has some fear in fair census due to big change in sindh political dynamics but what about the federal government and the pakpassion internet guru's based in (lahore + islamabad) who pretend they know everything about karachi, what happened to them? why they are against a fair census results? Dear folks, we are as much pakistani as you guys are but seriously your biased approach toward karachiites is unhelpful. I know some people who distance themselves in last couple of years from ethnic politics in the city are thinking going back towards it.

Don't pull a fast one mate.... everything is not a conspiracy a no amount of crying or threats is going to get you anywhere.... people need to grow up.

The argument of Karachi division is twice the size and should have twice the population of Lahore has already been debunked here ...
 
The argument of Karachi division is twice the size and should have twice the population of Lahore has already been debunked here ...

Only according to you though...

Chief census commissioner has also had conflicting remarks on it. There will be an investigation on it. Just like your master Nawaz was held accountable there will be justice here too..
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Why lump Islamabad with Lahore? I'm based in Islamabad and I'm firmly with Karachi on this one. Those numbers are so ridiculous they're borderline insulting. The government is basically telling us you're a bunch of idiots and we can pull a fast one on you in broad daylight. Lahore is a different story and Punjab loses out a LOT if Karachi's population is around 24-25 million so conspiracy theories about Karachiites and Pukhtuns playing victim are abound. There have been irregularities elsewhere as well that have gone unnoticed in all the fuss over Karachi's numbers (districts, backward ones at that which should have above average birth rates, actually losing population compared to 1998). It's quite clear that numbers have been doctored to keep Punjab's population north of the 50% benchmark.

Realistically, Punjab should have lost 15-18 NA seats, not the 4 that are being presented as evidence that no numbers were fudged? And once again, stop lumping us with Lahoris, I don't think anyone from Islamabad will appreciate that. It's bad enough that our city now looks like a miniaturized Lahore *cringes*.

First, Punjab had the lowest growth rate among all provinces.... And Sindh has a higher growth rate...

Second, census gives total population of Pakistan at 220 millions... So if you say that people are missing, it means Pakistan's population is 230-240 millions??

Third, Karachi's population is less because part of the Karachi urban area is counted as rural Sindh... So this advantages Sindh and PPP... It doesn't make any difference to Punjab because Sindh will have same population whether those people are counted in Karachi or in Sindh....

So before starting these conspiracies about Lahore and Punjab, you should present a reasonable scenario where it advantages Lahore and Punjab...

Oh and for Punjab to lose 18 seats, it would mean overall Pakistan population is 250 millions :))

Just because you feel population of some place should be this and population of other place should be that doesn't mean that's the case in real world.... Who am I going to trust? People who actually went out and counted millions of people, or people sitting behind their keyboard ''feeling'' that this place should have this population.... People who have no idea of the difference between urban area and city proper.... And who don't know that zero estimate in the world gave Karachi city population above 20 millions... Yet here they are saying ''Karachi's population is at least 30 millions''....
 
What's ironic is that the census shows the rural population of Karachi growing by a substantial margin while the urban population only grew nominally. So people were moving from gaon dehaat and settling in gaon dehaat just outside Karachi :)))

And this fudging would help Punjab how???
 
First, Punjab had the lowest growth rate among all provinces.... And Sindh has a higher growth rate...

Second, census gives total population of Pakistan at 220 millions... So if you say that people are missing, it means Pakistan's population is 230-240 millions??

Third, Karachi's population is less because part of the Karachi urban area is counted as rural Sindh... So this advantages Sindh and PPP... It doesn't make any difference to Punjab because Sindh will have same population whether those people are counted in Karachi or in Sindh....

So before starting these conspiracies about Lahore and Punjab, you should present a reasonable scenario where it advantages Lahore and Punjab...

Oh and for Punjab to lose 18 seats, it would mean overall Pakistan population is 250 millions :))

Just because you feel population of some place should be this and population of other place should be that doesn't mean that's the case in real world.... Who am I going to trust? People who actually went out and counted millions of people, or people sitting behind their keyboard ''feeling'' that this place should have this population.... People who have no idea of the difference between urban area and city proper.... And who don't know that zero estimate in the world gave Karachi city population above 20 millions... Yet here they are saying ''Karachi's population is at least 30 millions''....
Maybe the census dudes just shifted the population data for karachi and the north, and added it to punjab's total. That's most likely what happened.
 
Maybe the census dudes just shifted the population data for karachi and the north, and added it to punjab's total. That's most likely what happened.

Then why does Punjab have lowest growth?? Since they added the 15 millions non-counted people of Karachi in Punjab?? And the 20 milllion not counted people of the north??

Be rational man...

Like I said, what happened is that people don't know the difference between urban area and city proper... The population of Karachi proper is 15 millions... Every estimate from foreign sources says so...

The crazy numbers of 20-30 millions you hear are for the urban area.... And I bet even in the census karachi urban area will have 20 million+...
 
Why lump Islamabad with Lahore? I'm based in Islamabad and I'm firmly with Karachi on this one. Those numbers are so ridiculous they're borderline insulting. The government is basically telling us you're a bunch of idiots and we can pull a fast one on you in broad daylight. Lahore is a different story and Punjab loses out a LOT if Karachi's population is around 24-25 million so conspiracy theories about Karachiites and Pukhtuns playing victim are abound. There have been irregularities elsewhere as well that have gone unnoticed in all the fuss over Karachi's numbers (districts, backward ones at that which should have above average birth rates, actually losing population compared to 1998). It's quite clear that numbers have been doctored to keep Punjab's population north of the 50% benchmark.

Realistically, Punjab should have lost 15-18 NA seats, not the 4 that are being presented as evidence that no numbers were fudged? And once again, stop lumping us with Lahoris, I don't think anyone from Islamabad will appreciate that. It's bad enough that our city now looks like a miniaturized Lahore *cringes*.

Only thing Islamabad is being converted in to Afghan slum for obvious reasons. Islamabad now is city with most slums in Pakistan thanks to migrations from certain areas. Pashtuns shouldn't complain as their growth rate is highly exaggerated because of afghans which effect rest of Pakistanis including Islamabad which used to be native punjabi majority city but now quickly turning in to pashtu slum like Karachi. Most of people from Karachi are claiming half of FATA/KP pashtun have moved to Karachi yet KP growth rate is by far highest. Not to forget now Baloch are minority in their own province. Pashtuns should be last people to play victim card over census. If this latest census doesn't make them happy then don't know what will, maybe they will not be happy till they bring every afghani in to Pakistan.

Either pashtuns didn't migrate to Karachi or they are being counted in their original villages. Punjab share in population have decreased but KP increased despite millions migrating to Karachi and other cities like Islamabad and Lahore.


Islamabad — a city with maximum slums


ISLAMABAD: The Islamabad Capital Territory (ICT) has maximum slums with these areas being so categorized for being devoid of any civic services like water supply, sewerage, basic health and education, the provisional results of the 2017 population census reveal.

An extremely unusual and shocking finding of the instant data is that population in rural areas of Islamabad increased as opposed to its urban region. This is contrary to the growth of population across Pakistan where urban populace shot up as against the rural areas.

In the present census compared to 1998’s similar exercise, the proportion of rural population of the ICT went up by 15pc, an extraordinary development, whereas in whole of Pakistan urban population swelled.

Islamabad’s population in the three censuses of 1981, 1998, and 2017 has been 340,000, 810,000, and two million. The ratio of urban population was 60pc, 65pc and 50pc, in them respectively. Overall highest population growth, 4.9pc, has now been recorded in ICT where growth in rural areas of Islamabad has been above 6pc.

The phenomenal 15pc growth in the rural proportion of the ICT is not due to indigenous population increase, but because of migration to the ICT suburbs, mostly from southern and northern Khyber Pakhtunkhwa (KP) and even northern Punjab. The migration from KP has obviously been triggered by its peculiar security situation.

The entire population growth in ICT’s rural areas is in fact development of slums around sectoral urban region of the federal capital. The major focus of this huge population surge in the rural belt has been areas around Tarnol, Sihala, Rawal Dam, Bani Gala, Barakahu, Bari Imam, Golra, Shah Allah Ditta, Nilore Road, and Jhangi Sayedan.

In reality, all this 65pc population being shown as rural is basically slum development, giving Islamabad a dubious distinction of being the capital with largest proportion of slum dwellers. This finding of the 2017 census has serious implications for Islamabad in terms of security, law and order, and future development.

The Capital Development Authority (CDA) has not developed any residential sector in last 30 years. Even after Islamabad’s control has gone to the elected Mayor, the situation has not improved, and whatever little spark the civic agency had has also gone dormant.

The findings of the latest data, showing huge growth in slums, are an objective and empirical commentary on the state of affairs of the CDA and ministries responsible for planning and management of the federal capital. What is even more intriguing is that successive heads of governments have been directly controlling the CDA, and ICT administration.

The ethnic and linguistic profile of these new rural/slum dwellers has not been shared by the Pakistan Bureau of Statistics (PSB) yet, which will provide even more insightful data of demographics of these dwellings. Demographic experts are predicting that, once this data is available, Islamabad may be a majority Pashtu speaking region.

With construction of western route of the China-Pak Economic Corridor (CPEC), which will reduce travel time for KP’s southern districts to the capital to almost two hours, the situation will get further complicated, highlighting urgency for development of satellite towns around western route if further slum development in Islamabad is to be prevented and reasonable alternative is to be provided to incoming migrants.

This critical finding of the new census demands the prime minister’s immediate attention and need to shake the CDA out of slumber, and also provides a good score card to measure performance of bureaucrats responsible for planning and urban management of the capital.

Another factor further complicating this rapid “slumisation” in the capital’s suburbs is practically zero development expenditure in rural areas of ICT as the per capita development expenditure allocated in the Public Sector Development Programme (PSDP) for rural areas of Islamabad is lowest in Pakistan. Even backward regions like Balochistan, tribal areas and Gilgit-Baltistan have more per capita development spending than ICT’s rural areas.

India’s definition of urban population is very interesting. They don't go about it like Pakistan. A line divides urban and rural areas, but it is the characteristics of population that decide whether populace is to be classified as rural or urban.

These features include population of 5,000 or above; at least 75pc of male population engaged in non-agriculture pursuits so the linkage to agriculture will determine whether population is urban or rural; and population density of at least 400 persons per square kilometer.

Going by this definition, Tarnol, Barakhau, Sihala, Bani Gala, Jhangi Sayedan and many other settlements would be urban but urban slums.

Indians also use terms like urban agglomerations and outgrowths to define certain population centers in rural areas but have urban characteristics. As per these features, the ICT would be 80 percent urban but predominately "urban slums".

Comments
https://www.thenews.com.pk/print/227624-Islamabad-a-city-with-maximum-slums
 
Then why does Punjab have lowest growth?? Since they added the 15 millions non-counted people of Karachi in Punjab?? And the 20 milllion not counted people of the north??

Be rational man...

Like I said, what happened is that people don't know the difference between urban area and city proper... The population of Karachi proper is 15 millions... Every estimate from foreign sources says so...

The crazy numbers of 20-30 millions you hear are for the urban area.... And I bet even in the census karachi urban area will have 20 million+...

We know millions upon millions of FATA/KP people have migrated to Karachi, not to forget afghanis. But despite all that KP population growth is higher then Karachi. I have a feeling 3% decrease in punjab population should have meant higher growth for Karachi but instead for some shocking reasons KP and pashtun majority areas of Balochistan have higher growth rate then Karachi despite war like situation in these areas.

3% mean around 6 million which if you add to Karachi 2017 census figure then population become 22 million. Its pretty clear what is happening here, pashtuns are not being counted in Karachi population but in KP, FATA and Balochistan which doesn't make sense.
 
And this fudging would help Punjab how???

Either I'm looking at wrong report or people are forgetting the fact that KP and Balochistan (pashtu majority region) have experienced highest growth, not punjab which is well below national average 2.13 and also below Sindh 2.41.

I know there is history of muhajir-pathan in Karachi but there is possibility pathans when asked said they are only in Karachi for temporary work. You are not counted as resident unless you live for more then 6 months. We shouldn't dismiss Karachi people concerns as everyone know pashtun migration to Karachi is highest. If pashtun migration to Islamabad have been counted in Islamabad which is the reason for explosion in slums and population then why not Karachi?
 
Only thing Islamabad is being converted in to Afghan slum for obvious reasons. Islamabad now is city with most slums in Pakistan thanks to migrations from certain areas. Pashtuns shouldn't complain as their growth rate is highly exaggerated because of afghans which effect rest of Pakistanis including Islamabad which used to be native punjabi majority city but now quickly turning in to pashtu slum like Karachi. Most of people from Karachi are claiming half of FATA/KP pashtun have moved to Karachi yet KP growth rate is by far highest. Not to forget now Baloch are minority in their own province. Pashtuns should be last people to play victim card over census. If this latest census doesn't make them happy then don't know what will, maybe they will not be happy till they bring every afghani in to Pakistan.

Either pashtuns didn't migrate to Karachi or they are being counted in their original villages. Punjab share in population have decreased but KP increased despite millions migrating to Karachi and other cities like Islamabad and Lahore.


Islamabad — a city with maximum slums


ISLAMABAD: The Islamabad Capital Territory (ICT) has maximum slums with these areas being so categorized for being devoid of any civic services like water supply, sewerage, basic health and education, the provisional results of the 2017 population census reveal.

An extremely unusual and shocking finding of the instant data is that population in rural areas of Islamabad increased as opposed to its urban region. This is contrary to the growth of population across Pakistan where urban populace shot up as against the rural areas.

In the present census compared to 1998’s similar exercise, the proportion of rural population of the ICT went up by 15pc, an extraordinary development, whereas in whole of Pakistan urban population swelled.

Islamabad’s population in the three censuses of 1981, 1998, and 2017 has been 340,000, 810,000, and two million. The ratio of urban population was 60pc, 65pc and 50pc, in them respectively. Overall highest population growth, 4.9pc, has now been recorded in ICT where growth in rural areas of Islamabad has been above 6pc.

The phenomenal 15pc growth in the rural proportion of the ICT is not due to indigenous population increase, but because of migration to the ICT suburbs, mostly from southern and northern Khyber Pakhtunkhwa (KP) and even northern Punjab. The migration from KP has obviously been triggered by its peculiar security situation.

The entire population growth in ICT’s rural areas is in fact development of slums around sectoral urban region of the federal capital. The major focus of this huge population surge in the rural belt has been areas around Tarnol, Sihala, Rawal Dam, Bani Gala, Barakahu, Bari Imam, Golra, Shah Allah Ditta, Nilore Road, and Jhangi Sayedan.

In reality, all this 65pc population being shown as rural is basically slum development, giving Islamabad a dubious distinction of being the capital with largest proportion of slum dwellers. This finding of the 2017 census has serious implications for Islamabad in terms of security, law and order, and future development.

The Capital Development Authority (CDA) has not developed any residential sector in last 30 years. Even after Islamabad’s control has gone to the elected Mayor, the situation has not improved, and whatever little spark the civic agency had has also gone dormant.

The findings of the latest data, showing huge growth in slums, are an objective and empirical commentary on the state of affairs of the CDA and ministries responsible for planning and management of the federal capital. What is even more intriguing is that successive heads of governments have been directly controlling the CDA, and ICT administration.

The ethnic and linguistic profile of these new rural/slum dwellers has not been shared by the Pakistan Bureau of Statistics (PSB) yet, which will provide even more insightful data of demographics of these dwellings. Demographic experts are predicting that, once this data is available, Islamabad may be a majority Pashtu speaking region.

With construction of western route of the China-Pak Economic Corridor (CPEC), which will reduce travel time for KP’s southern districts to the capital to almost two hours, the situation will get further complicated, highlighting urgency for development of satellite towns around western route if further slum development in Islamabad is to be prevented and reasonable alternative is to be provided to incoming migrants.

This critical finding of the new census demands the prime minister’s immediate attention and need to shake the CDA out of slumber, and also provides a good score card to measure performance of bureaucrats responsible for planning and urban management of the capital.

Another factor further complicating this rapid “slumisation” in the capital’s suburbs is practically zero development expenditure in rural areas of ICT as the per capita development expenditure allocated in the Public Sector Development Programme (PSDP) for rural areas of Islamabad is lowest in Pakistan. Even backward regions like Balochistan, tribal areas and Gilgit-Baltistan have more per capita development spending than ICT’s rural areas.

India’s definition of urban population is very interesting. They don't go about it like Pakistan. A line divides urban and rural areas, but it is the characteristics of population that decide whether populace is to be classified as rural or urban.

These features include population of 5,000 or above; at least 75pc of male population engaged in non-agriculture pursuits so the linkage to agriculture will determine whether population is urban or rural; and population density of at least 400 persons per square kilometer.

Going by this definition, Tarnol, Barakhau, Sihala, Bani Gala, Jhangi Sayedan and many other settlements would be urban but urban slums.

Indians also use terms like urban agglomerations and outgrowths to define certain population centers in rural areas but have urban characteristics. As per these features, the ICT would be 80 percent urban but predominately "urban slums".

Comments
https://www.thenews.com.pk/print/227624-Islamabad-a-city-with-maximum-slums

Putting aside your fairly obvious racism, no one's crying over growth rates. The issue here is whether or not numbers have been fudged to favor one region over others and whether or not one region has higher growth rates is irrelevant to that. I don't know what you mean when you say ISB was a 'native Punjabi city' because it was never that. The region was largely a collection of sparsely populated villages until the city was built which was populated by immigrants from all over Pakistan. It has traditionally been one of three mega diverse cities in the country alongside Karachi and Peshawar and your claims that there has been a massive shift in its ethnic makeup recently simply isn't true. The makeup of ISB has usually been fairly close to Pakistan's overall makup (50-60% Punjabi, 15-20% Pukhtun, followed by Urdu speakers, Sindhis, Baloch and others, in that order).

The article you quoted is (a) From a disreputable publication and (b) easily discredited because it conveniently misses out the part about DHA Phases 1-3, Bahria Town Phases 1-8, PWD, Soan Gardens, Gulberg Greens and dozens of other developments being counted under Islamabad Rural in the census which accounts for the massive increase in rural population as the population in these developments has skyrocketed recently. Slums in Islamabad exist, though they're not nearly as common as you claim. There were two majority Pukhtun slums, one in I-11 which was mostly inhabited by IDPs from within Pakistan and one in H-11 which was mostly Afghan. The one in I-11 was torn down for commercial development under the pretense that the residents were Afghans, something local residents quickly pointed out to be false since the actual Afghan slum in H-11 was still there. Most other slums tend to be populated with Christians like French Colony in F-7 or the slum in F-6. Regardless, I don't see how that's relevant to fudging of census numbers by the authorities. Just another case of whataboutism.
 
I thought All afghan refugees were being deported how can they be included in the cencus?
 
So correct me if I'm wrong Karachi is the financial capital of Pakistan, majority of taxes are paid by karachiites however Karachi does not get enough money from central government to fix its problems?

Sounds like Mumbai..

People of Lahore/Punjab fudge the results to keep most seats in parliament from Punjab region meaning no government can ever be formed without Punjab involvement?
[MENTION=138463]Slog[/MENTION] [MENTION=138254]Syed1[/MENTION] [MENTION=26195]DW44[/MENTION]
 
So correct me if I'm wrong Karachi is the financial capital of Pakistan, majority of taxes are paid by karachiites however Karachi does not get enough money from central government to fix its problems?

Sounds like Mumbai..

People of Lahore/Punjab fudge the results to keep most seats in parliament from Punjab region meaning no government can ever be formed without Punjab involvement?
[MENTION=138463]Slog[/MENTION] [MENTION=138254]Syed1[/MENTION] [MENTION=26195]DW44[/MENTION]

Pretty much. Karachiites have a tendency to exaggerate the overall extent of Karachi's net contribution but by and large, their point about Karachi being a net contributor that gets shafted by the money sinks, where political power is concentrated, is valid.
 
So correct me if I'm wrong Karachi is the financial capital of Pakistan, majority of taxes are paid by karachiites however Karachi does not get enough money from central government to fix its problems?

Sounds like Mumbai..

People of Lahore/Punjab fudge the results to keep most seats in parliament from Punjab region meaning no government can ever be formed without Punjab involvement?
[MENTION=138463]Slog[/MENTION] [MENTION=138254]Syed1[/MENTION] [MENTION=26195]DW44[/MENTION]


More or less you are correct

However Punjab would still have most seats in parliament regardless of whether the process is fair or not.
 
Pretty much. Karachiites have a tendency to exaggerate the overall extent of Karachi's net contribution but by and large, their point about Karachi being a net contributor that gets shafted by the money sinks, where political power is concentrated, is valid.

More or less you are correct

However Punjab would still have most seats in parliament regardless of whether the process is fair or not.


Ok so now the real question since you have had democracy now for a while on and off do you see there is any political party or leader who if brought in power would be honest enough to resolve this? And if there is do you think majority of the population would vote for that and not vote on other lines which sub continent people generally vote for?
 
Ok so now the real question since you have had democracy now for a while on and off do you see there is any political party or leader who if brought in power would be honest enough to resolve this? And if there is do you think majority of the population would vote for that and not vote on other lines which sub continent people generally vote for?

1 - Fake democracy. Military is still the most powerful entity and that has implications for economic matters since the military is by far the largest player in Pakistan's economy.
2 - Even if there was an actual democracy in place, there is no political will for reform. The largest parties in Sindh, of which Karachi is capital, and Punjab, where political power is concentrated, are strongly opposed to Karachi's influence. PPP doesn't want Karachi getting too big for it's shoes and PML is propping up Lahore as an alternative center for business and industry.
3 - Even if there was political will across the country, Punjab's greater than 50% representation in parliament means that PML-N can shut down attempts to improve the allocation of funds to Karachi. They did a similar thing a few years ago to KPK where Public Sector Development Fund grants were withheld from KPK.
 
However Punjab would still have most seats in parliament regardless of whether the process is fair or not.
It would but it would not be able to outvote the entire rest of Pakistan combined. The 2011 household survey, whose results were far more plausible than those of the census, put Punjab's population at around 47-48%. Punjab's NA seats dropping below 50% of the total for the first time would not be an insignificant matter. It would have far reaching implications for our entire political setup.
 
Putting aside your fairly obvious racism, no one's crying over growth rates. The issue here is whether or not numbers have been fudged to favor one region over others and whether or not one region has higher growth rates is irrelevant to that. I don't know what you mean when you say ISB was a 'native Punjabi city' because it was never that. The region was largely a collection of sparsely populated villages until the city was built which was populated by immigrants from all over Pakistan. It has traditionally been one of three mega diverse cities in the country alongside Karachi and Peshawar and your claims that there has been a massive shift in its ethnic makeup recently simply isn't true. The makeup of ISB has usually been fairly close to Pakistan's overall makup (50-60% Punjabi, 15-20% Pukhtun, followed by Urdu speakers, Sindhis, Baloch and others, in that order).

Even in 1998 ISB census punjabi speakers made 75% and pashtuns less then 10%. Suddenly Islamabad is city with must slums and pashtu speakers. Racism? I just found your pashtu victim and card and blaming punjab over census hypocritical looking at results. Karachi and Lahore are diverse but Peshawar? Not so much as it hasn't seen much migration if at all from outside KP/FATA.

The article you quoted is (a) From a disreputable publication and (b) easily discredited because it conveniently misses out the part about DHA Phases 1-3, Bahria Town Phases 1-8, PWD, Soan Gardens, Gulberg Greens and dozens of other developments being counted under Islamabad Rural in the census which accounts for the massive increase in rural population as the population in these developments has skyrocketed recently. Slums in Islamabad exist, though they're not nearly as common as you claim. There were two majority Pukhtun slums, one in I-11 which was mostly inhabited by IDPs from within Pakistan and one in H-11 which was mostly Afghan. The one in I-11 was torn down for commercial development under the pretense that the residents were Afghans, something local residents quickly pointed out to be false since the actual Afghan slum in H-11 was still there. Most other slums tend to be populated with Christians like French Colony in F-7 or the slum in F-6. Regardless, I don't see how that's relevant to fudging of census numbers by the authorities. Just another case of whataboutism.

I'm not claiming anything, article was not written by me. Islamabad slums and rural population now is half of ICT which used to be 65-35. On % basis ISB now have more slums then even Karachi.

Here is how its relevant. Karachi people claim millions of people migrated mostly from KP, FATA. Punjab population decrease by 2.7% but KP, FATA and pashtun majority Balochistan districts increase by over 2%.

Karachi where apparently millions of pashtuns migrated despite that didn't increase its share in national population %. Baloch in Balochistan are now minority when just 19 years ago they used to make 60% of population. Do you see where the problem is?
 
It would but it would not be able to outvote the entire rest of Pakistan combined. The 2011 household survey, whose results were far more plausible than those of the census, put Punjab's population at around 47-48%. Punjab's NA seats dropping below 50% of the total for the first time would not be an insignificant matter. It would have far reaching implications for our entire political setup.

8% decrease in huge province like punjab would mean 15 million people migrated somewhere else with in Pakistan. And I don't see any evidence of large scale migration from punjab to other parts of country. In 1951 punjab share in population used to be 60% which it decreased to 55%. Explained by the fact that punjabi speaking population in Karachi increased and also Islamabad which was carved out of punjab but now ICT is federal territory.

Punjab people largely have same numbers of kids as rest of Pakistan. From 60% to 55% in 50 years is explained by migration pattern. But from 55% to 47% in 19 years doesn't make sense at all. Anyone who have basic idea about how population growth work would have discarded that random housing survey. Unless as I said there is evidence of large scale migration to other areas from punjab.
 
Last edited:
So correct me if I'm wrong Karachi is the financial capital of Pakistan, majority of taxes are paid by karachiites however Karachi does not get enough money from central government to fix its problems?

Sounds like Mumbai..

People of Lahore/Punjab fudge the results to keep most seats in parliament from Punjab region meaning no government can ever be formed without Punjab involvement?
[MENTION=138463]Slog[/MENTION] [MENTION=138254]Syed1[/MENTION] [MENTION=26195]DW44[/MENTION]

People are claiming gov manipulated census but guess where PML-N rule? Punjab and Balochistan. And guess who will loss seats and NFC share after this census? Punjab and Baloch majority areas. Does it make any sense to you?

Here is another fact. Millions of KP population migrated to Karachi after operations and for economic reasons. But Karachi share didn't increase but KP did.

Either they have counted millions of afghans as Pakistanis or this census is made up should be discarded. I will not be surprised as GHQ/army was also doing census and they can't be trusted.
 
Even in 1998 ISB census punjabi speakers made 75% and pashtuns less then 10%. Suddenly Islamabad is city with must slums and pashtu speakers. Racism? I just found your pashtu victim and card and blaming punjab over census hypocritical looking at results. Karachi and Lahore are diverse but Peshawar? Not so much as it hasn't seen much migration if at all from outside KP/FATA.
So what's the importance of the 75% figure? Internal migration to the federal capital happens, more so from some regions than others. What's your point? You clearly also don't live in Islamabad if you think it has the most slums of any city. As already mentioned, the majority of what's Islamabad-Rural in the census is actually gated communities like DHA that have, for some inexplicable reason, been categorized as rural. Secondly, of the maybe 10 slums across ICT (fewer in Islamabad proper), most are inhabited by local Christians so the picture you're painting here is entirely inaccurate which is not surprising considering the source you quoted.

I don't see what pushto victim complex you're talking about considering this thread is about Karachi, a city where Urdu speakers are the majority, a group I should hate if I follow your ethnocentric view but I'm simply standing by a party that I believe has been wronged. That party is not Pukhtun and I have not disputed census figures for KPK so I don't see how my ethnicity is relevant unless we come back to my earlier point about you being a racist. Karachi undoubtedly is diverse. So is Peshawar where a variety of ethnic groups exist in large numbers. Lahore absolutely isn't, it's close to 90 something percent Punjabi. If anything, it's probably the least diverse megacity outside of east and southeast Asia.


I'm not claiming anything, article was not written by me. Islamabad slums and rural population now is half of ICT which used to be 65-35. On % basis ISB now have more slums then even Karachi.

Here is how its relevant. Karachi people claim millions of people migrated mostly from KP, FATA. Punjab population decrease by 2.7% but KP, FATA and pashtun majority Balochistan districts increase by over 2%.

Karachi where apparently millions of pashtuns migrated despite that didn't increase its share in national population %. Baloch in Balochistan are now minority when just 19 years ago they used to make 60% of population. Do you see where the problem is?

If you quote an article from a disreputable source with blatant factual inaccuracies, it doesn't matter if you wrote the article, the onus is on you to make sure that what you quote is credible. You keep harping on about the rural figure for Islamabad overtaking the urban population, based on that article, when you've been told already that this statistical anomaly is primarily due to DHA, Bahria town and several other large residential schemes, all of which are heavily urbanized, being included in Islamabad-Rural in the census. That doesn't mean Islamabad actually has a high rural population, it means that some idiotic statistician counted half the urban population of Islamabad as rural.

I don't see what you're trying to imply here, that Pukhtuns are a problem somehow? That them migrating to other parts of their country is somehow objectionable and equivalent to doctoring official census numbers to favor one province over others? If internal migration is such an issue, might as well let them secede if them exercizing their rights as Pakistani citizens to live anywhere in the country is somehow not only an issue but one comparable to illegally manipulating census data.
 
8% decrease in huge province like punjab would mean 15 million people migrated somewhere else with in Pakistan. And I don't see any evidence of large scale migration from punjab to other parts of country. In 1951 punjab share in population used to be 60% which it decreased to 55%. Explained by the fact that punjabi speaking population in Karachi increased and also Islamabad which was carved out of punjab but now ICT is federal territory.
Statistical ineptitude seems to be an epidemic on PP. First that Indian guy, now this. An 8 percentage point drop in Punjab's population as a share of Pakistan doesn't equate to a loss of population since the overall population has grown massively, it just means Punjab's population grew slower than others. The overall population would still increase, no need for some warped hypothetical migration to explain the numbers.

Punjab people largely have same numbers of kids as rest of Pakistan. From 60% to 55% in 50 years is explained by migration pattern. But from 55% to 47% in 19 years doesn't make sense at all. Anyone who have basic idea about how population growth work would have discarded that random housing survey. Unless as I said there is evidence of large scale migration to other areas from punjab.

What do you base that on? All statistics, real and doctored, point to Punjab having a significantly lower birth rate than all other provinces so your 'observation' that people in Punjab have the same number of children is simply not true.
 
So what's the importance of the 75% figure? Internal migration to the federal capital happens, more so from some regions than others. What's your point? You clearly also don't live in Islamabad if you think it has the most slums of any city. As already mentioned, the majority of what's Islamabad-Rural in the census is actually gated communities like DHA that have, for some inexplicable reason, been categorized as rural. Secondly, of the maybe 10 slums across ICT (fewer in Islamabad proper), most are inhabited by local Christians so the picture you're painting here is entirely inaccurate which is not surprising considering the source you quoted.

I don't live in Islamabad but the one who wrote that article do and likely know better.

I don't see what pushto victim complex you're talking about considering this thread is about Karachi, a city where Urdu speakers are the majority, a group I should hate if I follow your ethnocentric view but I'm simply standing by a party that I believe has been wronged. That party is not Pukhtun and I have not disputed census figures for KPK so I don't see how my ethnicity is relevant unless we come back to my earlier point about you being a racist. Karachi undoubtedly is diverse. So is Peshawar where a variety of ethnic groups exist in large numbers. Lahore absolutely isn't, it's close to 90 something percent Punjabi. If anything, it's probably the least diverse megacity outside of east and southeast Asia.

I think you should dispute figures for KP if not for being biased ethnically as they don't make any sense.

Lahore in 1998 was 86% punjabi speakers, now likely less with significant increase in pashtun population. Meanwhile Peshawar is still like in 1947 by large with practically no migration from rest of Pakistan, I don't see how its more diverse then Lahore.


If you quote an article from a disreputable source with blatant factual inaccuracies, it doesn't matter if you wrote the article, the onus is on you to make sure that what you quote is credible. You keep harping on about the rural figure for Islamabad overtaking the urban population, based on that article, when you've been told already that this statistical anomaly is primarily due to DHA, Bahria town and several other large residential schemes, all of which are heavily urbanized, being included in Islamabad-Rural in the census. That doesn't mean Islamabad actually has a high rural population, it means that some idiotic statistician counted half the urban population of Islamabad as rural.

I don't see what you're trying to imply here, that Pukhtuns are a problem somehow? That them migrating to other parts of their country is somehow objectionable and equivalent to doctoring official census numbers to favor one province over others? If internal migration is such an issue, might as well let them secede if them exercizing their rights as Pakistani citizens to live anywhere in the country is somehow not only an issue but one comparable to illegally manipulating census data.

If pashtuns are migrating to Karachi like people claim then it should result in decrease in KP population and increase in Karachi population. What we are seeing is opposite and no one have any problem because they are busy blaming evil Punjabis despite the fact that only punjab population saw decrease.

We should look at data objectively.
 
Statistical ineptitude seems to be an epidemic on PP. First that Indian guy, now this. An 8 percentage point drop in Punjab's population as a share of Pakistan doesn't equate to a loss of population since the overall population has grown massively, it just means Punjab's population grew slower than others. The overall population would still increase, no need for some warped hypothetical migration to explain the numbers.

Suddenly punjab where majority of people live in rural areas are having 2 kids and rest of Pakistan on average 10. This isn't very believable it is?



What do you base that on? All statistics, real and doctored, point to Punjab having a significantly lower birth rate than all other provinces so your 'observation' that people in Punjab have the same number of children is simply not true.

Not true at all, by large difference isn't much between punjab fertility rate and rest of Pakistan. All statistics point towards same fact. If anything only ethnicity which likely have less kids are urdu speakers as they are pretty much 100% urbanised. 8% difference in 19 years would imply either mass migration or some natural disaster that killed millions. At this rate punjab population will be below 30% by 2050 if someone believed PP experts. Census was done by British long before Pakistan existed. Punjab was most populated region of current day Pakistan making up to 60% of population in 1951. Conspiracy theories of doctored results are just that, conspiracy theories.

Census 1998 fertility rate

punjab 4.4 vs Sindh 4.6 vs KP 5.0
 
I don't see what you're trying to imply here, that Pukhtuns are a problem somehow? That them migrating to other parts of their country is somehow objectionable and equivalent to doctoring official census numbers to favor one province over others? If internal migration is such an issue, might as well let them secede

Wanted to address this issue separately as you are trying to divert discussion on purpose but I will not fall in your trap. I didn't say pakhtun migration is problem and neither should migration of other people to KP should be a problem.

I question logic behind huge increase of 88% in KP and 60% in Karachi since 1998. I also question logic behind issue of pakthun population being under counted. For god sake Pakistan pashtun population alone is now higher then whole Afghanistan which wasn't the case in the past. We are lead to believe Karachi have seen millions of more pashtun migration since 1998. Now either they didn't migrate or census was manipulated to show huge KP increase. I don't believe in conspiracy theories so will wait for final results to give PBS time to explain and verify with Nadra.

I don't see how punjab 48% increase since 1998 which is below national average is akin to doctored results in its favor. Especially when difference between fertility rate isn't much across Pakistan even if bit lower in punjab. Now if punjab population was 47% it would mean increase of just 30% since 1998. Rest of Pakistan are not producing like rabbits and punjab suddenly didn't become Japan.
 
I don't live in Islamabad but the one who wrote that article do and likely know better.
They clearly don't considering the number and sheer scale of the mistakes in that article.

I think you should dispute figures for KP if not for being biased ethnically as they don't make any sense.
Why? KPK figures are consistent with their population growth rate. ~3.5% growth rate sounds about right for KPK.

Lahore in 1998 was 86% punjabi speakers, now likely less with significant increase in pashtun population. Meanwhile Peshawar is still like in 1947 by large with practically no migration from rest of Pakistan, I don't see how its more diverse then Lahore.
More ignorance. Peshawar isn't even like 1987, much less 1947. Pukhtuns, the largest ethnic group in KPK, were a minority in Peshawar until the late 80s-early 90s. No ethnic group even makes up 60% of Peshawar's population and at least two make up 10% or more. If you don't know the facts, wouldn't it make more sense to check instead of making stuff up? Punjabi community in Peshawar didn't sprout out of the ground, there has been plenty of migration there in the past. During the two wars with India, thousands of people migrated from northern and central Punjab. Their descendants now number in the hundreds of thousands.



If pashtuns are migrating to Karachi like people claim then it should result in decrease in KP population and increase in Karachi population. What we are seeing is opposite and no one have any problem because they are busy blaming evil Punjabis despite the fact that only punjab population saw decrease.

We should look at data objectively.

You really need to take a basic statistics class, there are so many ridiculous assumptions and gaping flaws there it's embarrassing. First, the majority of Pukhtuns migrated from FATA, not KPK. Second, KPK has a ridiculously high growth rate so even if it lost a few million people to internal migration, it's population would still rise faster than Sindh and Punjab, trailing only Balochistan which has even higher birthrates and lower internal migration. Karachi's population should increase, that's the only thing you've gotten right so far, but the statistics on Karachi's population are pretty mind boggling hence the three page thread.

Suddenly punjab where majority of people live in rural areas are having 2 kids and rest of Pakistan on average 10. This isn't very believable it is?
Punjab and Sindh are more urbanized than KPK and Balochistan, and it's not even close. This reflects in population growth rates. Assuming the census figures are correct, KPK and Balochistan's growth rates are higher than Punjab's by as much as 40-50%.

Not true at all, by large difference isn't much between punjab fertility rate and rest of Pakistan. All statistics point towards same fact. If anything only ethnicity which likely have less kids are urdu speakers as they are pretty much 100% urbanised. 8% difference in 19 years would imply either mass migration or some natural disaster that killed millions. At this rate punjab population will be below 30% by 2050 if someone believed PP experts. Census was done by British long before Pakistan existed. Punjab was most populated region of current day Pakistan making up to 60% of population in 1951. Conspiracy theories of doctored results are just that, conspiracy theories.

Census 1998 fertility rate

punjab 4.4 vs Sindh 4.6 vs KP 5.0

Fertility rates have changed since 1998, as evident by the massive variance between population growth rates of different provinces and given the size of the overall population relative to incidence of internal migration, that variance can't be explained by internal migration (unless KPK and Balochistan were somehow net recipients of migrants). An 8 percentage point drop does not at all imply a mass exodus, it simply means that Punjab's population grew much slower than the other provinces (closer to Sindh in reality) but at a pretty rapid rate by global standards nonetheless.
 
Wanted to address this issue separately as you are trying to divert discussion on purpose but I will not fall in your trap. I didn't say pakhtun migration is problem and neither should migration of other people to KP should be a problem.

That was exactly what you implied when you equated the issue of number doctoring with Pukhtun population increasing and my 'hypocrisy' at not treating the two equally. The very fact that you brought up my ethnicity in a thread that has zero relation to it (Karachi's population - Punjab benefits - I don't see how KPK or Pukhtuns fit into this) says volumes about where you're trying to steer this discussion.

I question logic behind huge increase of 88% in KP and 60% in Karachi since 1998. I also question logic behind issue of pakthun population being under counted. For god sake Pakistan pashtun population alone is now higher then whole Afghanistan which wasn't the case in the past. We are lead to believe Karachi have seen millions of more pashtun migration since 1998. Now either they didn't migrate or census was manipulated to show huge KP increase. I don't believe in conspiracy theories so will wait for final results to give PBS time to explain and verify with Nadra.
And I question your logic behind questioning the logic of whatever it is that you're questioning. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that lower literacy rates and status of women in a given society equates to higher birth rates. KPK is light years behind Sindh and Punjab on both fronts so its only logical that their population would increase much faster. Balochistan, where things are worse, has an even higher growth rate. There's no rocket science to it. Punjab and Sindh's growth rates are pretty disgusting themselves and their only saving grace is that KPK, as expected, is trying to set some sort of breeding record.


I don't see how punjab 48% increase since 1998 which is below national average is akin to doctored results in its favor. Especially when difference between fertility rate isn't much across Pakistan even if bit lower in punjab. Now if punjab population was 47% it would mean increase of just 30% since 1998. Rest of Pakistan are not producing like rabbits and punjab suddenly didn't become Japan.
It may or may not be. The issue here isn't Punjab's numbers being exaggerated, it's Karachi's being underreported. Difference between fertility rate varies widely across Pakistan, your claim to the contrary simply isn't true. If the population in one place is growing 50% faster than another, the variance in birth rates obviously isn't negligible like you're claiming. All of Pakistan is breeding like jackrabbits, Punjab included, it's just that the two western provinces are doing so at a much quicker rate. Punjab's growth rates are still fairly high by global standards. Most third world countries have lower growth rates than Punjab and the only reason it looks low is because of the disgraceful figures for KPK and Balochistan.
 
They clearly don't considering the number and sheer scale of the mistakes in that article.

Why? KPK figures are consistent with their population growth rate. ~3.5% growth rate sounds about right for KPK.

No it doesn't sound right especially if we believe millions of KP people also migrated to Karachi. If they didn't migrate then maybe data make sense despite increase of 88% since 1998.


More ignorance. Peshawar isn't even like 1987, much less 1947. Pukhtuns, the largest ethnic group in KPK, were a minority in Peshawar until the late 80s-early 90s. No ethnic group even makes up 60% of Peshawar's population and at least two make up 10% or more. If you don't know the facts, wouldn't it make more sense to check instead of making stuff up? Punjabi community in Peshawar didn't sprout out of the ground, there has been plenty of migration there in the past. During the two wars with India, thousands of people migrated from northern and central Punjab. Their descendants now number in the hundreds of thousands.

First time I'm hearing wars with India made punjab people migrate to Peshawar, not sure from where you get your news. Migration to Peshawar are internal irrespective of them being hindko or pashtun. Pashto+hindko alone made up 95%+ of population in 1998 Peshawar census. Right now likely closer to 98%. BTW pashtuns made 85% of Peshawar population in 1998.


You really need to take a basic statistics class, there are so many ridiculous assumptions and gaping flaws there it's embarrassing. First, the majority of Pukhtuns migrated from FATA, not KPK. Second, KPK has a ridiculously high growth rate so even if it lost a few million people to internal migration, it's population would still rise faster than Sindh and Punjab, trailing only Balochistan which has even higher birthrates and lower internal migration. Karachi's population should increase, that's the only thing you've gotten right so far, but the statistics on Karachi's population are pretty mind boggling hence the three page thread.

FATA despite migrations to KP also had above average 62% increase since 1998.



Punjab and Sindh are more urbanized than KPK and Balochistan, and it's not even close. This reflects in population growth rates. Assuming the census figures are correct, KPK and Balochistan's growth rates are higher than Punjab's by as much as 40-50%.

It doesn't explain why pashtun in Balochistan will have 100% increase compared to Baloch areas 65%. This could only be explained by census teams counting afghans as Pakistanis like many Baloch politicians feared before census.

Fertility rates have changed since 1998, as evident by the massive variance between population growth rates of different provinces and given the size of the overall population relative to incidence of internal migration, that variance can't be explained by internal migration (unless KPK and Balochistan were somehow net recipients of migrants). An 8 percentage point drop does not at all imply a mass exodus, it simply means that Punjab's population grew much slower than the other provinces (closer to Sindh in reality) but at a pretty rapid rate by global standards nonetheless.

It changed since 1998 but not by much. I don't believe punjab people have adopted 1 child policy while rest are breeding like rabbits without any proof what so ever apart from good old observation by individuals. I'm also sure urdu speakers have lowest fertility rate but I will not claim even they have adopted 1-2 child policy.

1998 census Punjab increase 48% vs Sindh 61%. If punjab population was 47% then increase will be 30% vs 100% for Sindh. 97m vs 60m, this could only be explained by mass migration of people in short period of time.
 
Why was the column for internal migration removed in this census? So that they can show the people who come to Karachi for work as living in their area of origin, and then they say Karachiites are crying conspiracy.



:salute
 
No it doesn't sound right especially if we believe millions of KP people also migrated to Karachi. If they didn't migrate then maybe data make sense despite increase of 88% since 1998.
Millions of KP people didn't migrate to Karachi, most Pukhtun migrants to Karachi are from FATA. Secondly, even if they did, which they didn't, birth rates in KPK are so high that they'd more than make up for any migration. What I don't get is the relevance of this line of reasoning in a thread about Karachi being shafted in the census.


First time I'm hearing wars with India made punjab people migrate to Peshawar, not sure from where you get your news. Migration to Peshawar are internal irrespective of them being hindko or pashtun. Pashto+hindko alone made up 95%+ of population in 1998 Peshawar census. Right now likely closer to 98%. BTW pashtuns made 85% of Peshawar population in 1998.
First you're hearing of it reflects on your ignorance of things in Pakistan, it doesn't change the fact that there was a pretty large inflow during the wars. Either way, it's the only city in Pakistan apart from Karachi and Islamabad where no ethnic group has enough of a majority to be a dominant force. There's no such thing as Hindko+Pushto. Hindko and Pushto speakers are two very different groups and both are major stakeholders in Peshawar given their numbers.



FATA despite migrations to KP also had above average 62% increase since 1998.

And? Is it news to you that they breed like jackrabbits, even by Pakistani standards where the lowest growth rate area grows faster than 90% of the world's countries?


It doesn't explain why pashtun in Balochistan will have 100% increase compared to Baloch areas 65%. This could only be explained by census teams counting afghans as Pakistanis like many Baloch politicians feared before census.
Except Afghans have been counted separately and not alongwith Pakistani pukhtuns. Pukhtuns have historically had the highest growth rates in Pakistan and Pukhtuns from Balochistan are the most backward ones so it follows that they'd have higher growth rates than other Pukhtuns.

It changed since 1998 but not by much. I don't believe punjab people have adopted 1 child policy while rest are breeding like rabbits without any proof what so ever apart from good old observation by individuals. I'm also sure urdu speakers have lowest fertility rate but I will not claim even they have adopted 1-2 child policy.
What you believe is irrelevant. You have zero concrete facts to show for what you believe and what you believe has been debunked at least three times in the last ten posts. That you keep insisting on it shows how poor your grasp of basic AS Level statistics is.


1998 census Punjab increase 48% vs Sindh 61%. If punjab population was 47% then increase will be 30% vs 100% for Sindh. 97m vs 60m, this could only be explained by mass migration of people in short period of time.
What? That makes zero sense.
 
That was exactly what you implied when you equated the issue of number doctoring with Pukhtun population increasing and my 'hypocrisy' at not treating the two equally. The very fact that you brought up my ethnicity in a thread that has zero relation to it (Karachi's population - Punjab benefits - I don't see how KPK or Pukhtuns fit into this) says volumes about where you're trying to steer this discussion.

Everyone is bringing ethnicity including you. Its puzzling because people think millions of missed people in Karachi are being counted in punjab when regions with highest growth rate are KP and Balochistan. And Sindh too have above national growth rate. How that benefit punjab again is puzzling. Theory of punjab people suddenly adopting 1 child policy to explain all this just shows how biased people here are. Either pashtuns didn't migrate as expected or census is manipulated.



And I question your logic behind questioning the logic of whatever it is that you're questioning. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that lower literacy rates and status of women in a given society equates to higher birth rates. KPK is light years behind Sindh and Punjab on both fronts so its only logical that their population would increase much faster. Balochistan, where things are worse, has an even higher growth rate. There's no rocket science to it. Punjab and Sindh's growth rates are pretty disgusting themselves and their only saving grace is that KPK, as expected, is trying to set some sort of breeding record.

Punjab and Sindh are not exactly Sweden when it comes to women empowerment. Lahore and Karachi don't represent their provinces at large. In rural areas and urban also people fertility rate is still not anywhere near developed world.

1998 fertility rate, just 19 years ago.

Punjab 4.4 vs Sindh 4.6 vs 5.0.



It may or may not be. The issue here isn't Punjab's numbers being exaggerated, it's Karachi's being underreported. Difference between fertility rate varies widely across Pakistan, your claim to the contrary simply isn't true. If the population in one place is growing 50% faster than another, the variance in birth rates obviously isn't negligible like you're claiming. All of Pakistan is breeding like jackrabbits, Punjab included, it's just that the two western provinces are doing so at a much quicker rate. Punjab's growth rates are still fairly high by global standards. Most third world countries have lower growth rates than Punjab and the only reason it looks low is because of the disgraceful figures for KPK and Balochistan.

If Karachi numbers are under reported then it means more people migrated then what data is showing. Punjab increase 48% vs KP 88% or Balochistan over 100%. This is already mind boggling difference. I have checked all previous census data and never seen difference like this.

KP/FATA population share in census actually decreased in the past when they migrated to Karachi.
 
Last edited:
Millions of KP people didn't migrate to Karachi, most Pukhtun migrants to Karachi are from FATA. Secondly, even if they did, which they didn't, birth rates in KPK are so high that they'd more than make up for any migration. What I don't get is the relevance of this line of reasoning in a thread about Karachi being shafted in the census.

FATA have 6 times less population then KP, I'm sure they alone couldn't be responsible for huge pashtun population in Karachi but small part of it.

First you're hearing of it reflects on your ignorance of things in Pakistan, it doesn't change the fact that there was a pretty large inflow during the wars. Either way, it's the only city in Pakistan apart from Karachi and Islamabad where no ethnic group has enough of a majority to be a dominant force. There's no such thing as Hindko+Pushto. Hindko and Pushto speakers are two very different groups and both are major stakeholders in Peshawar given their numbers.

Because its simply not true, I'm sure some punjabis have migrated but not because of wars with India. Get real or post some source as I can't find anything on google. Punjabis make 1-2% of Peshawar population. Lying to score points here is pointless.

In 98' Peshawar Pashtuns+hindko were 95% of population. Diverse city just like Karachi? hope you are not serious. I combined them because they are habitants of KP before Pakistan was even formed, from that we know migration to Peshawar from rest of Pakistan is negligible.


Except Afghans have been counted separately and not alongwith Pakistani pukhtuns. Pukhtuns have historically had the highest growth rates in Pakistan and Pukhtuns from Balochistan are the most backward ones so it follows that they'd have higher growth rates than other Pukhtuns.

I doubt it, will have to read more about it because it make zero sense for difference to be so huge without some external factor. Hopefully PBS can explain all this in final report. Baloch are not urbanised, if anything more pashtuns in Balochistan live in Quetta.


What you believe is irrelevant. You have zero concrete facts to show for what you believe and what you believe has been debunked at least three times in the last ten posts. That you keep insisting on it shows how poor your grasp of basic AS Level statistics is.


I'm the only one here who have posted some figures and facts, otherwise its all good old observations. Pakistan doesn't need to do census, just ask politicians give their best possible guess which is always highest possible.

What? That makes zero sense.

Let me repeat again. We all agree with 207m right? Only problem is under counting in Sindh and over counting in punjab. If punjab was 47% then Sindh population would be 31% of Pakistan. That would translate in to 30% increase for punjab since 1998 and 100% for Sindh.
 
We know millions upon millions of FATA/KP people have migrated to Karachi, not to forget afghanis. But despite all that KP population growth is higher then Karachi. I have a feeling 3% decrease in punjab population should have meant higher growth for Karachi but instead for some shocking reasons KP and pashtun majority areas of Balochistan have higher growth rate then Karachi despite war like situation in these areas.

3% mean around 6 million which if you add to Karachi 2017 census figure then population become 22 million. Its pretty clear what is happening here, pashtuns are not being counted in Karachi population but in KP, FATA and Balochistan which doesn't make sense.

Not really... KP got a lot of refugees from FATA and Afghanistan who settled there... Also refugee's kids get citizenship or sometimes they use bribes to get passport... Also KP has very high growth rates eeverry rural pathan has like 10 kids...
 
Not really... KP got a lot of refugees from FATA and Afghanistan who settled there... Also refugee's kids get citizenship or sometimes they use bribes to get passport... Also KP has very high growth rates eeverry rural pathan has like 10 kids...

Possible but then who are millions of Karachi people who are counted in their place of origin? Or maybe Karachi population isn't higher then 16 million anyway.
 
It would but it would not be able to outvote the entire rest of Pakistan combined. The 2011 household survey, whose results were far more plausible than those of the census, put Punjab's population at around 47-48%. Punjab's NA seats dropping below 50% of the total for the first time would not be an insignificant matter. It would have far reaching implications for our entire political setup.

It doesn't make a single difference Punjab has more than 50% or less... Nobody in political system actually cares, it's only a point-scoring argument for people who don't understand elections...

No party is going to win 100% of seats in Punjab... In fact it's easier to earn 70% of seats in Sindh and then only 10-20% in Punjab like PPP did everytime they made a government... Or you can earn 60% in rest of Pakistan and 40% in Punjab... Obviously you need to spend less money to earn 60% in Sindh than to earn 60% in Punjab... especially since Punjab is so big so they have many different interests... Like people in south punjab aren't going to vote for you just because you spent money in Lahore...

Also Baluchistan gets more seats per person than Punjab... Especially in senate... If someone wants to divide Punjab then obviously you need to decrease the number of seats of Sindh in senate to make way for the new province.... Since every province gets more senate seats than their population except Punjab..
 
Possible but then who are millions of Karachi people who are counted in their place of origin? Or maybe Karachi population isn't higher then 16 million anyway.

It's not you're right... 16 millions was in the ball park of every estimation of Karachi population before census...

23 millions if you include surrounding areas of Karachi urban area.. Which is where the 20 million+ estimates come from...

As to where MQM got 30 million+ number, ask [MENTION=138254]Syed1[/MENTION]
 
It's not you're right... 16 millions was in the ball park of every estimation of Karachi population before census...

23 millions if you include surrounding areas of Karachi urban area.. Which is where the 20 million+ estimates come from...

As to where MQM got 30 million+ number, ask [MENTION=138254]Syed1[/MENTION]

You really are an awful judge of people aren't you? I'm the most anti-MQM person around. Infact in my area PTI wins and will win in 2018 too IA. But if I had to choose between MQM and Punjab-centric PML-N, I'll pick MQM everyday of the week and twice on Sunday.
 
You really are an awful judge of people aren't you? I'm the most anti-MQM person around. Infact in my area PTI wins and will win in 2018 too IA. But if I had to choose between MQM and Punjab-centric PML-N, I'll pick MQM everyday of the week and twice on Sunday.

A wise man once said you should only start paying attention after the but....

Do you think MQM is right in saying that Karachi has 30 million people at least??
 
Everyone is bringing ethnicity including you. Its puzzling because people think millions of missed people in Karachi are being counted in punjab when regions with highest growth rate are KP and Balochistan. And Sindh too have above national growth rate. How that benefit punjab again is puzzling. Theory of punjab people suddenly adopting 1 child policy to explain all this just shows how biased people here are. Either pashtuns didn't migrate as expected or census is manipulated.
I did not. You brought my ethnicity up to create a strawman about Pukhtun victimhood on a thread about Karachi where I stand by Karachi. If it's puzzling how underreporting Karachi's population benefits Punjab, I rest my case.


Punjab and Sindh are not exactly Sweden when it comes to women empowerment. Lahore and Karachi don't represent their provinces at large. In rural areas and urban also people fertility rate is still not anywhere near developed world.
Are you by any chance British Pakistani (or based outside of Pakistan for a long time at the very least), because that's BritPak level of ignorance about the situation in Pakistan right there. No one said Punjab is Sweden, Punjab's growth rate is also abnormally high by Pakistani standards but to deny that there's still a massive gap between Sindh/Punjab and KPK/Balochistan in terms of women's position in society and literacy rates is just plain wrong.

1998 fertility rate, just 19 years ago.

Punjab 4.4 vs Sindh 4.6 vs 5.0.
It's not "just" 19 years. It's "holy crap, 19 freaking years". When talking about fertility rates and stuff, 19 years is a lifetime. Most developing countries can literally reduce their growth rates in half, or even more, in 19 years. It's a long *** time in that context.


If Karachi numbers are under reported then it means more people migrated then what data is showing. Punjab increase 48% vs KP 88% or Balochistan over 100%. This is already mind boggling difference. I have checked all previous census data and never seen difference like this.

KP/FATA population share in census actually decreased in the past when they migrated to Karachi.
So? Previous census data has no bearing on current data. No previous census data, for instance, could predict that growth rates would actually increase from 1998-2017 over 1981-1998.

FATA have 6 times less population then KP, I'm sure they alone couldn't be responsible for huge pashtun population in Karachi but small part of it.
They easily can. Afghan Refugees and FATA IDPs account for the bulk of Pukhtun migration to Karachi. KPK also has significant outward migration but not nearly enough to make up for KPK's ridiculous birth rates.


Because its simply not true, I'm sure some punjabis have migrated but not because of wars with India. Get real or post some source as I can't find anything on google. Punjabis make 1-2% of Peshawar population. Lying to score points here is pointless.
I have actual family members through marriage who are Punjabis from families that migrated to Peshawar during the 65 war. It's convenient to ask for a source knowing full well Pakistan doesn't keep statistics on inward migration and certainly didn't in 1965.

In 98' Peshawar Pashtuns+hindko were 95% of population. Diverse city just like Karachi? hope you are not serious. I combined them because they are habitants of KP before Pakistan was even formed, from that we know migration to Peshawar from rest of Pakistan is negligible.
So you combined two entirely different ethnic groups because it helps you make a point? Intellectual dishonesty at it's finest. Anyway, KPK is a naturally diverse province compared to Sindh or Punjab, with several native ethnic groups like Chitralis, Kohistanis, Hazarewals (not the same thing as Hazaras), Pamiris, Pukhtuns and several smaller ones. Most are visibly present in Peshawar. Never has Peshawar had one ethnic group in such a heavy majority as Punjabis in Lahore. It has always had a plurality of Pukhtuns and Hindko speakers who, I reiterate, are completely different with large numbers of other ethnic groups.



I doubt it, will have to read more about it because it make zero sense for difference to be so huge without some external factor. Hopefully PBS can explain all this in final report. Baloch are not urbanised, if anything more pashtuns in Balochistan live in Quetta.
One would think you'd read up on it BEFORE making a series of unsubstantiated statements as opposed to after being called out on said statements.




I'm the only one here who have posted some figures and facts, otherwise its all good old observations. Pakistan doesn't need to do census, just ask politicians give their best possible guess which is always highest possible.
You have also demonstrated a shocking level of ineptitude at actually understanding how statistics, particularly those concerning demographics, work so most of your statistics here are outdated or irrelevant.


Let me repeat again. We all agree with 207m right? Only problem is under counting in Sindh and over counting in punjab. If punjab was 47% then Sindh population would be 31% of Pakistan. That would translate in to 30% increase for punjab since 1998 and 100% for Sindh.
No, just underreporting in Karachi. Overreporting in Punjab is speculation for the time being, no one has made that particular accusation. What has been said is that it benefits Punjab politically, which it does.
 
It's not you're right... 16 millions was in the ball park of every estimation of Karachi population before census...

23 millions if you include surrounding areas of Karachi urban area.. Which is where the 20 million+ estimates come from...

As to where MQM got 30 million+ number, ask [MENTION=138254]Syed1[/MENTION]

Karachi city population is 15 million. When rural areas are included in Malir then 16 million. Overall Sindh urban population is 24 million or 52% but thats include every city/urban in Sindh.
 
It doesn't make a single difference Punjab has more than 50% or less... Nobody in political system actually cares, it's only a point-scoring argument for people who don't understand elections...

No party is going to win 100% of seats in Punjab... In fact it's easier to earn 70% of seats in Sindh and then only 10-20% in Punjab like PPP did everytime they made a government... Or you can earn 60% in rest of Pakistan and 40% in Punjab... Obviously you need to spend less money to earn 60% in Sindh than to earn 60% in Punjab... especially since Punjab is so big so they have many different interests... Like people in south punjab aren't going to vote for you just because you spent money in Lahore...

Also Baluchistan gets more seats per person than Punjab... Especially in senate... If someone wants to divide Punjab then obviously you need to decrease the number of seats of Sindh in senate to make way for the new province.... Since every province gets more senate seats than their population except Punjab..

You give me some song and dance about people not understanding elections and then you come up with that gem about Balochistan being overrepresented in Senate? Irony just killed itself. Every province gets an equal number of seats in Senate. Whether or not Punjab is over or under 50% is relevant, and you'd think an Insafian (damn you censorship.. I need to use the actual word for that, not 'insafian') of all people would know the importance of that after what PML-N pulled last election, basically winning Punjab and forming a majority government.
 
You give me some song and dance about people not understanding elections and then you come up with that gem about Balochistan being overrepresented in Senate? Irony just killed itself. Every province gets an equal number of seats in Senate. Whether or not Punjab is over or under 50% is relevant, and you'd think an Insafian (damn you censorship.. I need to use the actual word for that, not 'insafian') of all people would know the importance of that after what PML-N pulled last election, basically winning Punjab and forming a majority government.

Exactly... Baluchistan is only 20 million people but same number of seats as Punjab and Sindh = Overrepresented relative to population... So if Punjab is divided into several provinces then those provinces need to have more seats and Baluchistan/Sindh/KP less.... Don't cry when that happens...

PTI will win in both Punjab and KP next election inshallah don't need sindh

And PML won seats in KP and Baluchistan and Gilgit Baltistan and Azad Kashmir
 
Last edited:
Exactly... Baluchistan is only 20 million people but same number of seats as Punjab and Sindh = Overrepresented relative to population... So if Punjab is divided into several provinces then those provinces need to have more seats and Baluchistan/Sindh/KP less.... Don't cry when that happens...

PTI will win in both Punjab and KP next election inshallah don't need sindh

That's how upper chambers of the legislature work in many places. Do you think it's fair that Wyoming with half a million people gets the same number of seats in the US senate as California with it's 40 million people? The lower house is supposed to reflect the makeup of the population while the upper house is supposed to act as a safeguard for the less populous states/provinces against the majoritarian urges of the more populous states.

I could care less if PTI wins both Punjab/KPK or neither of them. It makes very little difference who wins which province as long as some of the most important policy matters are under GHQ control.
 
That's how upper chambers of the legislature work in many places. Do you think it's fair that Wyoming with half a million people gets the same number of seats in the US senate as California with it's 40 million people? The lower house is supposed to reflect the makeup of the population while the upper house is supposed to act as a safeguard for the less populous states/provinces against the majoritarian urges of the more populous states.

I could care less if PTI wins both Punjab/KPK or neither of them. It makes very little difference who wins which province as long as some of the most important policy matters are under GHQ control.

Didn't say anything about fair..... Balochistan being over-represented is fair... But people in Pakistan have a habit of crying when fair favours Punjab... So if Punjab gets divided you can anticipate many tantrums by usual suspects...

So you could care less?? You're a Insafian?
 
Back
Top